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Brand to Scale is a podcast where we talk to business leaders and industry influencers about how they built their brands. Each episode dives into real stories about starting up, growing through challenges, and what success looks like behind the scenes. It's an honest look at the people and ideas driving business forward.
[00:00:00] Welcome to another episode of Brand to Scale, where I talk to founders, leaders, and entrepreneurs about what it really takes to build something great. I'm Jess, your host and co-founder of [00:00:10] Alchemy. Today, I'm joined by someone who's helping UK businesses embrace smarter, faster education through AI driven tools.
He's also passionate at, passionate about cutting through [00:00:20] the hype and focusing on what really creates real value. Jay, welcome to the show. Thank you. I know you're super busy, so I really appreciate your time. That's right, Jess. Thank you for having me as well. [00:00:30] Thanks. So you've got a hell of a career. So I think we should start at the beginning.
So what, what happened at school? You good at school? Did you have [00:00:40] ambitions to be entrepreneur? What did you wanna be when you grew up? Uh, look as my, as my daughters tell me, uh, no, I wasn't very good at school. So. When they're not doing well in their exams, they [00:00:50] remind me of how I did. Um, but yeah, I wasn't, I wasn't great at school.
Um, I was, you know, sort of middle, if anything. Um, didn't really enjoy school, mixed off quite a lot. And, uh, and yeah, left [00:01:00] school, I went to college. So, um, yeah, school wasn't my best time of my life, let's put it that way. What did you do in college? Uh, it, so, uh, nice. Okay. Yeah. So, [00:01:10] so a lot of people know me as in my per in my career as, um, as more comms network.
Uh, but actually my background is it, uh, a lot of people don't realize that, and that's why obviously flow tech is more, [00:01:20] more it these days. You know what you're doing there. So that was a natural fit. Yeah, I hope so. Did you go on to start something yourself or did you go and have a [00:01:30] proper job as they call them?
Yeah, so look, I worked, um, I worked at left, left College, uh, I think about 18. I worked for a couple of companies, [00:01:40] worked for, um, a couple of different in the mobile industry. Wood for car from warehouse. Um, and I, I basically just kept on getting a sack from jobs basically. So that's why I had to work [00:01:50] for myself.
I think nobody would employ me. Um, I'm just not employable, I think is basically what happens. Um, and essentially I, um, I needed a career. My, my [00:02:00] granddad, uh, who I really looked up to, said to me, look, you know, you need to get a career behind you. Our, our family were all electricians and that was the sort of family business.
So I basically enrolled [00:02:10] to become an electrician in college. And, uh, after sort of passing up my first year and, and whatever, doing quite well. I decided it just wasn't me. I wasn't [00:02:20] hands-on it just, you know, I was quite good at the sort of theory side of it, but when they come to actually putting a fuse board and distribution board on the wall, it just wasn't my, uh, it wasn't my [00:02:30] gig.
Not at all. Not at all. Did you said you were good at theory, so the, the school element then you would assume you'd be good at school if you were good at theory, but was it just not an interesting subject? Yeah, I think [00:02:40] that's what it is. You know, like, because I, I love learning. I, I'm always studying, I'm always under, you know, doing certifications exams these days.
So I think, it wasn't that I wasn't good [00:02:50] at school, it's just I struggled to, um, learn something I don't actually enjoy is probably a better way to put it. So I don't enjoy learning about geography and [00:03:00] maths and things like that on it, but when it comes to learning about tech and stuff that I'm personally interested, I'm really like quite hyper-focused on, uh, on [00:03:10] learning it and understanding it and getting inside it.
So. Yeah. So quite different to school, I would say. But I think school is a bit different, isn't it? Because they don't focus on, um, getting the best [00:03:20] outta a student. They focus on getting what they want into a student, you know? Yeah, yeah. So, and I always think as well, like in, in school, there can be things that you're really good at and [00:03:30] things that you're really passionate about, but they're not always the same thing.
So you'll get pushed to do the things you're good at, but you might be wanting to do something else over there that you probably need to learn more, more [00:03:40] about. Yeah. Yeah. I totally agree. Totally agree. And I think, I think that was my thing, is that, you know, the, the teachers would push you to learn, um, you know, like say the science or the physics, and I just [00:03:50] have zero interest in that.
But when it come to it, studies or, you know, other things like history, um, I actually really enjoyed an Excel that, but nice. But overall, I [00:04:00] think they put you in a bucket and they, and say, you know, either you're a performer or you're not. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. What happened after the, um, attempt at being an electrician?
Then [00:04:10] what, what was the next step? Yeah, so, uh, the reason I left after year one was because basically I, I just felt that I could do this myself and not electrical side of it, [00:04:20] but I, I always had a, I always have three goals in life, and, and the first one was I wanted to work for myself. Um, I just, I always had this aspiration.
I always did things when I was growing up, selling [00:04:30] computers on eBay and, you know, do window cleaning and things like that. So I always had a sort of goal just to work for myself. Mm-hmm. Um, and essentially I just, I just, [00:04:40] I dunno again, hyper focus around, that's what I wanna do. And so I had a goal, which was, um, you know, to set up a, a telecoms company providing mobile and landline [00:04:50] communications.
And so I left college at 21 and, uh, and set up a business called Datacom. Um, and I, and I grew that for about 13 years, I think. [00:05:00] Uh, and sold it when I was 34. Wow. And that was pretty much all through my twenties. So you could say I didn't have a life through my twenties. I didn't do what most people do in their twenties where they [00:05:10] go to Maloof and whatever and, and have fun.
You know, I was, if you ask all my friends for school and friends growing up, I, I wasn't there, you know, I was working pretty much full time and just [00:05:20] focused on just driving, uh, growth. Wow. That's, that's a really, uh, that's incredible. At that point, just to go, I'm gonna go work for myself. Where do you [00:05:30] think the, that goal or ambition came from?
Because that's very specific. I'm gonna work for myself, or was the driver. Yeah. Uh, I dunno, I've always, [00:05:40] I, I've always wanted that as a goal. So I, I didn't have family who were business people. Um, like my dad had a, had a small business where he was, [00:05:50] uh, he had a body repair company, but it, it was just him and one or two others.
Um, you know, my granddad was a managing director, but he was employed. But it, so yeah, I didn't have that [00:06:00] business in the family, so that wasn't something I saw and just wanted, I just think I would read things, I would see, uh, things online about, you know, business entrepreneurs and I [00:06:10] just, I dunno, just always wanted that to be me.
I just wanted to be different. I always wanted a lot more than just average. Wow. Did you feel like you, [00:06:20] like 13 years of growing that when you were starting that, did you go, shit, this is harder than I thought? Or did you like actually I'm really enjoying this. I know what to do, I know what the net [00:06:30] SEP are.
Uh, I think we always have like, negative times in business. You know, like we, I think within the first year we had some like, employment issues and I was like, I was 21. I had [00:06:40] absolutely no idea how to deal with employment issues. Um, you know, I had, uh, you know, supplier, suppliers change in terms and things that you just, [00:06:50] you know, nobody teaches if they in school and college, right?
And so of course there was days where I thought, you know, is this right? Um. Actually, you know, we never had a [00:07:00] single pound of debt. We were always cash positives. We were always growing the business, we were always employing people. And so I just enjoyed what I did, but I wasn't [00:07:10] motivated by the financial success.
It was just the how proud I was actually building something that was quite unique in the market. Mm-hmm. And I think ultimately that just [00:07:20] drives financial success if you are not doing it for the money as well. Is it that having the, the purpose and the goal rather than the, I'm gonna be loaded mindset kind of helps and then the [00:07:30] rest follows?
Yeah, I, I agree. Like I've never, I never wanted to be the richest person in the world and have the biggest yacht in the, in, in the sea. Right. Um, for me, I, I, I had three [00:07:40] goals. I, I said the first one, I wanted to be a millionaire by, I was 30 and I wanted to retire by 40. Right. And those are my three life goals.
Um, and so for me, I was just driven by [00:07:50] those things, but at the same time. I wanted to be the best at what we did. And you know, in my opinion, and a few others, we, we built the best, uh, comms tech [00:08:00] business in Wales and we won lots of awards of fast growth and, you know, service and everything else on it. And so for me, I was motivated by those things.
And ultimately, if you are driven by [00:08:10] that, then the benefits come from it as well, is what I was thinking. Absolutely. How many, um, people did you have working, working for you at that, that point? Uh, [00:08:20] we had about 50 people when I exited. Um, so that was 2019, so it was like 34 then. And so yeah, we, you know, so it, we had, you know, we had a lot of people and [00:08:30] it was just me as the, as the, as the sort of shareholder really.
So it was a lot, a lot to be on me, if I'm being honest. Yeah. Did it feel like quite a lonely [00:08:40] place at times? Did you have any like mentors or anything, or were you just going it alone? Yeah, um, mainly alone and then I think the later days. I, um, [00:08:50] started to get some business coaching, um, and, and just went up the scale really.
So I, I sort of went business coaching, then I went to a, a full on business mentor who came into our [00:09:00] business and sort of, um, I, I would say put the cherry on the, on the icing type of level. Um, and then really when I sold the business, I [00:09:10] found a bit of a new mentor in the person that bought the business and actually learned a lot from that person as well.
So I think naturally we, you know, we've all got people we aspire and look up to. Um, and [00:09:20] for me it was just, you know, just keep on improving continuously. Yeah. What were the biggest challenge, like when you're so young, building a business that, that big as well? What were [00:09:30] the biggest challenges, would you say?
Looking back, um, the biggest challenges are probably not having any experience [00:09:40] or anyone to talk to about those challenges. So. A lot of people set up a business after being employed in that industry for a long time and seeing what [00:09:50] works really well in that industry. Whereas I didn't have that, you know, I didn't have a work experience to learn from.
I didn't have a mentor I could go to with a question. [00:10:00] So I think for me, the hardest thing was, is not having anybody to actually, uh, to talk to, you know, until the very later days, I, I was part of, uh, groups, you know, I was part of, [00:10:10] um, uh, a group called, uh, blue Rock, which was like a business, sort of, uh, a few businesses coming together and sort of talking as a board Later on that [00:10:20] closed and we actually set up our own called Enable.
And that was a, that was a great help because you, you got to talk with every month with about, I dunno, eight to 10 other businesses. You could tell 'em obviously [00:10:30] what your challenges are and obviously they would give their opinion back on it. And I quite, quite enjoyed that. It was more of a peer, peer network.
Yeah. And that was, that was a big help. Super helpful, isn't it? I think when you [00:10:40] can have conversations around a table that you can't have with your family 'cause they don't get it. Yeah. I think it's a, it's a, it's, you know, essentially you need somebody who is non-emotional about your [00:10:50] business. Mm-hmm. Um, and I, and I do, a lot of, a lot of people come to me now for like business or coaching.
Um, you know, and, and I, I try not to turn it down because [00:11:00] I always think I was in that position once where I didn't have somebody to talk to. So I'm always quite supportive and helpful and just give, um, the best advice I can without taking up too much [00:11:10] time. Because it is a di it is difficult to balance everything as well at the same time.
Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. What was the point where, I mean, were you approached to sell that business or was [00:11:20] it, you know, you had a plan? This is now's the time to, to No. Yeah, so, um, no, going back to that third goal, it was, um, you know, I wanted to retire [00:11:30] 40, so I still had six years left of me. Um, and so it wasn't the plan to sell.
It was. One of our competitors actually came on the market and they were selling, [00:11:40] and I wanted to raise the money for that. And so I went to market to raise the money and at the same time, the broker who supported us and helped us said to me, look, you know, [00:11:50] you may as well go to market and see what sort of business valuation you could get on the market.
Um, and actually what happened was we did that and somebody came [00:12:00] in with an offer and they didn't just wanna buy the business, but they wanted to give everything on day one, a hundred percent cash on day one with a year earn out. And what they also did was they wanted me [00:12:10] to become the CEO of their group as well.
And so it was a bit of a transition. So what it meant was, is that I could de-risk from a financial point of view, [00:12:20] learn from this CEO and potentially take over within the next five years and, you know, sit on a board of a hundred million pound private equity backed business and. [00:12:30] And just learn. And so, so in answer, yeah, there wasn't, there wasn't a plan to, to exit.
Um, it was just sometimes the, the right offer, the right time. [00:12:40] And, you know, I've got no regrets about it either. Wow. That, that retiring at 40, I find it hard to believe that you would be like, yeah, I'm good now. I'm not gonna do anything at 40. [00:12:50] Enig. Do you think you would've been able to just shut down?
Well, I, I did try. So, um, a year after I sold the business, I realized that my passion [00:13:00] for everything I believed in, um, had, had gone. I just couldn't feel the same passion about this new company, um, because they didn't share the same ethos and beliefs that I [00:13:10] did. And so I actually left the business and decided to retire.
And so I was 35 then. Um, and my wife, myself, my, our two [00:13:20] daughters, our, our dog and our cat, um, moved up to Cyprus. And we actually retired for about six months. And so I did, I have done it. Wow. Um, and I lasted, I lasted six [00:13:30] months and I, I just wanted to come back. I just, I just felt that I had so much more to give.
Um, I just, I just needed to challenge myself. So it answered your question. I've tried it, I failed at [00:13:40] it. Um, and I've realized that I'm probably never gonna retire. And I think my wife will tell you that as well, is she doesn't think I'll ever retire. And I sort of sort of agree. [00:13:50] Yeah. I mean, if you've got goals that strong that, um, I, yeah, I think it's gonna be hard to sort of just sit back and watch will go by I think at that point.[00:14:00]
Yeah. I do know the other thing as well is when you set out yourself, when you set your goals out, which I did, um, when you achieve them too early, then actually what happens is you can get quite [00:14:10] lost. Mm-hmm. And so. I actually, you know, I achieved what I set out at 34 and the problem with that was is I was a bit like, well, what next?
I had, I had [00:14:20] completed what I set out to do, and so all of a sudden I felt quite lost in the respect of what, what's next? What do I do? What's gonna motivate me, what's gonna get me up in the morning? And so, although [00:14:30] it was amazing, you know, living in Cyprus and walking on the beach with my dog every day, right.
Um, it was an incredible life. Um, but I just realized it just wasn't enough and I needed challenge. I think I [00:14:40] just need stress in my life to be happy as well. You need stress in your life. Wow. As I don't often hear that. Yeah. It seems to be anyway. Yeah. Is [00:14:50] it down to, um, do you think that's just who you are as a person?
Are you always looking for the next challenge and the next thing? Yeah, I think so. Um, I [00:15:00] always want more, which I think is just in my nature. So I always want to achieve more. I always, you know, if we achieve 110%, I wanna achieve 120 next month. [00:15:10] Um, if, you know, and, and I'm the same with everything. You know, I'm, I'm big into my fitness.
I, you know, every time I, um, you know, move up a weight, I wanna, I wanna, I wanna do [00:15:20] that next week. Next week, you know, and so I'm never happy with, with progress, I just keep on wanting more, which I've realized, and for straight people quite a lot, because I've got a board of directors now, which I never [00:15:30] had before.
I, I, I think they find me quite frustrating because they sometimes want praise and that's not my strength. I'm more about like, well, what's next? How do we, how do we repeat this and do more? [00:15:40] Yeah. We've done that now, so let's move on to the next thing rather than chat about how amazing we are that we've achieved it.
Yeah, exactly. Now exactly that. Totally sympathize with that. Yeah. What's next? What's next? [00:15:50] So you are walking along the beach in Cyprus, living your best life, feeling a little bit unsettled. What do you do then? Do you make a call like I'm back on the market or do you build something new? What, [00:16:00] what happened?
Yeah. So I was gonna come back and, um, and I wanted a set, uh, you know, I managed it and comms business. And [00:16:10] so I rang up my best friend, who also was the managing director of the business that bought my business. Um, which was, which only happened after we, after I sold the business, we just, we just [00:16:20] met each other.
A guy called Malcolm and just become best mates overnight and, um. I rang him up and I said, look, you know, um, I'm coming back. I'm gonna, I'm gonna do this thing. I wanna [00:16:30] start another business and um, I'm probably gonna do it smaller is what I said. I just wanna enjoy it and have a load of fun. Um, if you wanna do it with me, then now is your opportunity, but it means [00:16:40] moving to Wales.
And so he lived in Beijing, so at the time, and by the time I put the phone down, I think he'd already found a house in Wales. No way he'd convinced him wife, he was moving [00:16:50] and uh, and he moved to Wales to do it. And, and then that just continued to propel. And obviously as you can probably see from flow tech now we're, we're a lot bigger than my previous business.[00:17:00]
And so, um, we just got more people involved and, and just accelerated goals really. I love that you said we're gonna stay small as soon as you said that, as I will ask, just [00:17:10] is it no sad? Sadly, everybody else says the same as well, so I dunno why I had that goal. That's, um, an incredible, uh, what's the word?
Like. [00:17:20] Confidence he had in you to just go Yes. And move. Why do you think that was? Um, well, I always remember actually [00:17:30] thinking back when he agreed and he, and he bought this house and everything was starting to move. I, I thought to myself, what have I, what have I done? You know, 'cause can I actually do this again?
You know, am I a trip [00:17:40] pony? Um, and so I started doubting myself if I'm being quite honest. And 'cause I thought, look, I did it when I was 21. I had different energy back then. Um, can I, can I do it again? Am [00:17:50] I gonna let this guy down? And so, but in answer to your question, I think Malcolm saw what I did in my previous business.
He saw how I operated, he saw the [00:18:00] drive, the passion that I had, and I think he, he just fully believed in, in me. And you know what I was about and. You know, he's really good for, for sort of [00:18:10] reminding me and, and keeping us true as well to what we set out. We always set out and said, look, we want flow tech to be a fun business.
We wanna enjoy what we're doing. And so when it gets really stressful and we're both working [00:18:20] long hours and, you know, not seeing our families and not having fun, uh, he'd remind me of that and say, Jay, stay true to what we were about. And so actually we'll go, yeah, true. And we'll go for, [00:18:30] you know, we'll go for a weekend away or just, you know, book something and just go and have a bit of fun together and just have a, have a laugh.
So, yeah, he's a, you know, he's a great business partner. How important [00:18:40] is that for you then to, I mean, you said that the previous business didn't really align with your, your ethos and your values at that point, and you clearly brought someone in that you're really aligned with. Do you [00:18:50] think that it would be as successful now if you hadn't had that dynamic and support and been on the same page starting out?
Uh, definitely not. No. I think, you know, early [00:19:00] days, I always think. You should think about what's the worst that can happen as well. So we set out a very strict shareholders agreement, making sure we knew [00:19:10] what was agreed at the start, because you know, as things change later on, people forget what everybody agrees.
Um, and so we set out a very strict, um, [00:19:20] what that's gonna look like, you know, how long we sort of committed to this for. And I think it, it was just really important to just remind ourselves of these things. And we do go back to that every now and again and just stay true to [00:19:30] what we, what we said at the beginning.
Mm-hmm. Um, and it's, it is quite useful when you are building a business with a partner. 'cause we talked a lot, lots of solopreneurs that built [00:19:40] businesses by themselves. What is the, um, how do you define each other's, like roles and responsibilities at that early stage so things don't cross over. And did [00:19:50] you choose someone who has very different skill sets to you or different, you know, ways of working?
Yeah, so there's. There's six directors, including myself on the board. [00:20:00] Um, Malcolm is, was the, was the founder with me. Um, but we've also got an FD who came on at the start as well, and, and, um, Craig, Phil and, and Wayne who come through [00:20:10] acquisition. And we've, we've been really sort of quite employee focused in this way.
So we all have a job description. We all have roles and [00:20:20] responsibilities. So there's no gray area at all, or does this person do that? Do you do this? You know, so, uh, uh, we've essentially, we do draw back to what was agreed on that, jd, what was [00:20:30] agreed at the start, what's on the shareholders agreement, because otherwise I think it can just become misaligned.
And there, there are times where, you know, we had a, a situation earlier this year where Malcolm [00:20:40] and I kept on, like bumping into each other, sort of with our responsibilities. And actually we held a meeting, both agreed where we wanna be. I'm focused on more [00:20:50] acquisition sales and marketing. Malcolm is more operational led, so he focuses on service and project delivery.
And so very much, you know, he'll give me the final decision on [00:21:00] my area and he has the final say on his areas, but we both bounced off each other. So we may not always agree, but we respect each other's different opinions on things as well. Mm. How [00:21:10] important is it to, to get on Now's friends though, as well as you do, do you think that's a requirement or do you think it's just a nice to have?
Um, I think it's a nice to have, but I, I, I think, [00:21:20] you know, we've got, as I say, five of the directors and I would consider them all as really, really close friends and I've got some personal relationships with some of [00:21:30] them, um, closer than others. Um, and I think some of them find it difficult when I put my CEO hat on and I am having [00:21:40] to go about, let's say sales as an example, Wayne as our sales director.
And I think he'll find it quite difficult that. I'm coming down on him and he's like, well, you're my mate. You know? [00:21:50] So we do have that a little bit, but I think he also steps back and reminds himself that this is business and this is friendship, but it is very difficult to not mix the [00:22:00] two as well, because, you know, my wife used to work with me and, and that was difficult, you know, because if I had to go with her about some financials, as soon as I walk in, you know, I wouldn't have dinner that [00:22:10] night.
You know? And so, so, you know, you, you do mix it a little bit without, without really trying as well that Yeah. I don't think you can ever keep it 100% separate. [00:22:20] Yeah. But you know, it does certainly help having friendship. 'cause you can, you just need to talk to each other sometimes and just have honest conversations as well.
You know, like tomorrow we. As the six [00:22:30] directors, we have a strategy, um, day every, every quarter to talk about what's coming up the next quarter this year. And, you know, we've decided to go abroad for it and just have a, just have a night to wait. [00:22:40] And don't get me wrong, half of it'll be work and half of it'll be having a beer and just getting on and chatting each other about Christmas and family and whatnot, you know?
Mm. Oh, I love that. I love that. I [00:22:50] think more people should do that as their, their strategy days. I'm sold. I agree. I'm sold. What is the biggest, um, positive and the biggest [00:23:00] negative of coming from somewhere that you completely own, that you built yourself, that you have full control over, and now having that, that board of directors that you work with, [00:23:10] how, how does, how does it compare?
It's different because I can't always get my way. So that's obviously a challenge, um, especially for somebody like me who likes [00:23:20] getting in her way, however. Ultimately, I think my position as CEO is to drive that vision and, and entrepreneurial way. [00:23:30] So a lot of the time the Boardman always agree with my point, but see, they'll go with it because they have complete trust and faith in me.
But at the same time, I've come to them with like [00:23:40] product and they've said, no, we're not doing it because of X or Y. And although I'm a little bit frustrated, I've taken it on board and gone, okay, I see a point. [00:23:50] Um, and either I've argued it or we've, um, or we've just dismissed it, you know? So it is really good because I just think you think of things in a different way because you get challenged on it.
So you know, you have to turn up with [00:24:00] proper strategy, otherwise you just get grilled on, well, you know, where's the objectives of that strategy? Where's the, where's the measuring of that strategy? So I think it, it does certainly help having business [00:24:10] partners because, you know, having employees, they, they'll challenge you to an extent, but never truly to the same as a business partner.
Yeah. So not getting your way is kind of beneficial [00:24:20] sometimes because you, you might not make the mistakes you would've made 'cause someone's sort of Yeah. Yeah, I agree. And it's nice to be challenged as well. I, I do [00:24:30] enjoy being challenged and that was one of the things I didn't really have in my first business because I had the say it was my business.
I could do what I wanted. So it is nice to be challenged and, you know, not [00:24:40] always, um, do it the Jay way. You know. It is nice sometimes. Yeah. Jay way love, Val. Love is, um, you've mentioned people focused and you've mentioned [00:24:50] that you wanted to build a business. Um, and have fun doing it. And I think some of the conversations I have with founders are like, you know, it started off that way and then it's got [00:25:00] quite serious little bit big hard decisions and then probably not enjoying it as much as they would before.
So how have you approached it to do it differently? To continue having fun? [00:25:10] And is that really the case, honestly? Or is it, uh, is it just some away days every now and again to break, break the tension? No, look, it's, it's hard. We're, we're a very fast [00:25:20] growth business. You know, we've gone from zero to nearly 20 million in three and a half years, and that's not done via hard work and sacrificing family time and, [00:25:30] and you know, everything else.
So it is a lot of hard work, but we try to keep true to what we're about, which is, which has happened. But at the same time, you [00:25:40] know, like culture wise, how we behaved as directors at 5 million to 20 million are, are very different. You know, we've gotta. We've gotta talk [00:25:50] differently, we've gotta, you know, we've gotta realize the impact.
Everything we say has, for example. And so I think there's a definite cultural change as you, as you grow [00:26:00] as a business. And, you know, you can't so much have fun with the team as like you would before. So, you know, we don't encourage drinking alcohol in our business because [00:26:10] it's just not who we are. Um, whereas my previous business, we'd often have nights out and, you know, maybe great parties, but you just gotta change as a business [00:26:20] and just adapt.
But I still think we have a lot of fun, but I think we have a lot of hard work as well building that. Yeah. Would your employees say that it is a business built with that in mind [00:26:30] as well? Um, in terms of the, the fun element, do they understand the acquisition strategy? 'cause you've done quite a lot of that, which I'd love to learn more about is, is that [00:26:40] along the ride for the journey, is what I'm saying, and how is that communicated across, across the team?
Yeah, so I think. We displayed our values early this year [00:26:50] and we sort of removed the word fun, um, and it was more about, you know, enjoyment and doing something you enjoy and and whatnot. So, but [00:27:00] that answer your question? Yeah, I think, look, our team are very engaged. You know, we do surveys on our team every quarter to see how engaged they are and the feedback and we tried to learn from it and improve on it.
And so the feedback is, [00:27:10] is really good. We scored, um, an average of eight and a half on our last quarterly survey, so I was quite pleased with that and out 10 that is. And so I think, you know, from a cultural point of view, we've got a [00:27:20] really strong culture. We've got a really good way about flow tech and you know, people come into flow tech and they're quite surprised that actually what they see on the outside is the [00:27:30] truth inside as well because I think sometimes they can be two different things.
Um, we had a new employee join us recently and they'd been to a couple of different IT companies, uh, over the years. [00:27:40] And um, and he said to me like, when does the bubble burst? And I said, what do you mean a bubble burst? And he said, well, it just seems too good at the moment. He said like, you know, everybody wants to help.
You know, the directors are [00:27:50] supportive, you know, sales are supportive, they're not trying to steal my sales. And, and I was like, that's not just not the flow tech way. We're all about supporting each other and helping each other. Yeah. [00:28:00] Um, so, but at the same side, look, we work hard because it's a growing business and, you know, we can't be perfect and we always need to improve.
So I think [00:28:10] ultimately is it fun every day? Do we all run into work, you know, jump in a joy? Probably not. Um, but I think overall as a business, we, we enjoy what we do and we try to reward our [00:28:20] team, uh, in that manner as well. And it's a two-way street as well, isn't it? You've gotta have people who really wanna do a good job, you know, succeed in their roles, be passionate about what they do.
[00:28:30] Yeah. And to do, to attract people like that is fairly difficult at the moment, I think for, for lots of businesses. So how are you approaching that? Recruitment, um, [00:28:40] aspect with your culture in mind? Um, so like, one of the things that we did early on in the business at the very start was we, we allocated 10% of our equity to our [00:28:50] team.
And so anybody coming into the business within a year, we get the business revalued and they, they have a slice of the purple pie as we call it. And so it [00:29:00] just means that everybody feels like, you know, it's their business as well. And you know, the effort they make has got a long term benefit to them, you know, so if we do a big project, it's not [00:29:10] just their salary, they're gonna get an increasing our valuation, which obviously helps them longer term as well.
So I think for us, when we come to like recruitment, we've got a head of people, a [00:29:20] lady called Hannah. Who, um, is focused on just on our recruitment side of our business. And when she's out there talking to people, she's got a lot of stuff [00:29:30] around our culture. She's got videos of our team talking about what it was like.
We do a lot of videos, uh, on our website, like, um, on the couch for example, um, behind me where we [00:29:40] interview the team on the couch to talk about their experience and what they do for their role. And it just allows people to see, um, you know, from the sort of outside in to see what actually the, the [00:29:50] reality is like in the business.
And I think we don't really struggle massively recruitment, we, a lot of people want to join flow tech 'cause they see great things and they hear great things. So [00:30:00] we have quite a strong recruitment position. But, you know, it's, it's also maintaining that as we grow as well. Yeah, absolutely. And, and staying true to those values and making sure that, you know, you [00:30:10] live leading with behavior as well is a huge thing for me.
I think you can have values and you can have these pasted all over the walls in the offices, but if the leaders aren't, you know, behaving in that way, [00:30:20] yeah. Um, it all goes to shit really, usually. Um, yeah. Is that something that you all have to remind yourself about? You know, like, are we actually living to these values?
Can we, can we say that we are? [00:30:30] Yes. So I think, look, we, yes, we put 'em on our wall. We've got a nice wallpaper with all our values on, and yes, we've got 'em on our website, but we do a lot more than that. We, when [00:30:40] we do, um, we have something called Pike Box, and the team can reward each other for demonstrating a value.
And so one of our main values, which I love, um, and take from my [00:30:50] last business really is be an eagle, which is all about taking accountability, ownership, and responsibility. Nice. And, and if you don't do those three things, you end up being a duck. And [00:31:00] so it's quite a strong, it's quite a strong value that we've got.
And you know, you've got some people who absolutely love it and, and live by it and very much, you know, you know, stopping a duck, they'll, you know, they'll [00:31:10] call a colleague, uh, when they're moaning about, you know, it's cold or something. But I think it's, it's making sure that yes, I agree that our team and our directors [00:31:20] are aligned to those values and making sure they're demonstrating those things and, and we're, and we're quite quick to pull 'em up on it.
So if in a board meeting somebody says something, which isn't our value, we'll very [00:31:30] quickly remind them of the values. So. Yeah. Yeah, I think we, we, we do a lot more than just put on the wall, but I know a lot of companies it's just about having values. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. [00:31:40] Um, talk to me about the growth through acquisition then.
'cause it's, it's one of those, um, I mean obviously lots of business do it, but smaller bit, they, people just [00:31:50] aren't aware that it's an option sometimes that you can, you can do, yeah. And you've done it with bells on. Should we put it that way? So like, [00:32:00] talk to me about the reasoning, why not grow organically?
Like how does it work? The benefits? Um, yeah, yeah. How does it work? Well, uh, my last business I, [00:32:10] um, grew organically a hundred percent. So I took it from zero, just a short of 5 million in, you know, 13 years. We've taken flow tech from [00:32:20] zero to 19 point half million in three and a half years. And so if that doesn't sort of say why acquire, then nothing does, right?
Yeah. But I [00:32:30] think. I, I didn't do it previously because, you know, I was risk adverse a little bit. I was very much about, you know, cash at the bank, not borrowing any money, being debt free, all that, all [00:32:40] that good stuff that we're taught, uh, from an early age. Right. Um, and actually I realized that debt is actually a good thing and that, you know, bringing debt into the business allows you to scale quicker and [00:32:50] grow quicker.
And so, obviously it's gotta be managed and controlled and and done in a sensible way. But what that's allowed us to do is grow a lot quicker, um, than we [00:33:00] would've if we, if we were trying to just grow from cashflow. See? And so essentially the acquisitions, we've done 14 acquisitions in three and a half years.
[00:33:10] Majority of them were done in the first three years, and we're now in a position where we're integrating those businesses and, you know, we were doing that throughout the whole process, but we're just finalizing the last [00:33:20] couple to integrate. But I think in answer to your question, we, I'm a big believer of like, you know, if you want to grow quick and you want to grow and, and.
Pick up customers that you never thought you would before [00:33:30] then acquiring businesses is really good if you do it the right way and you do it sensibly. Mm. What's the wrong way? Um, I think the wrong way is [00:33:40] probably just buying anything for the sake of say, I've done a deal. I think overpaying for business because you just wanna be able to say you've done an acquisition.
If you don't have the team, [00:33:50] the processes, the systems, the people in place, uh, for you to be able to grow a business through acquisition, I think you can do it in the wrong way. So, you know, [00:34:00] somebody not having a really good finance director to understand the financials and monitor the cash flow and really understand the due diligence of a business could end up in a, in a [00:34:10] world of pain.
Hmm. And so I think that's where we've really benefited is our finance director, which is one of our founding directors. Um, Dave, he came from a corporate finance [00:34:20] background and so he did the due diligence on businesses. He wrote the information memorandum packs on businesses. Gained all the debt funding, he did all this [00:34:30] work previously.
And so yes, it's a different role he's doing now, but what he's now doing is the reverse, which is using the knowledge he's got to actually be able to give us the information [00:34:40] to decide whether an acquisition is a good thing. Yeah, that's, um, you make it sound really easy and simple, but I'm assuming there's quite a lot of like, hunting that goes [00:34:50] into finding the right business.
Do they even wanna sell? Like, is is there some wool involved to the other end, you know, trying to try and get them to Yeah, look, I think acquisition is, 90% of it [00:35:00] is, um, is sales. So, you know, sales is my background. I, I love sales, I love being out with, with our partners, talking to them about stuff. I, I just enjoy that.
I just love sales marketing, [00:35:10] right? And so I think ultimately going out and acquiring a business, 90% of it is that because for us to acquire a business, I need to set a really good [00:35:20] impression. I need to go and speak to a hundred people before five of them will actually have a conversation. And you know, you need to be able to.
Turn down the wrong opportunity. You need to be able to [00:35:30] overcome the objections of selling, uh, the business to you. So a lot of it is, is, is really is selling, but I think like everything in business, it's easy [00:35:40] when, you know how, and I hadn't done an acquisition when we first started Flow Tech, but I had been on the board of the business that bought my company.
And so I learned a lot [00:35:50] in that, in that period, um, to realize that actually I can do this. And the fact that I've sat on the other side of the table as in selling my business, it means I [00:36:00] understand the emotional tie that they go through. I understand obviously what people are thinking, you know, so it really sets a different tone because I can, I can say to 'em, look, I, [00:36:10] you know, I empathize with what you're going through.
I understand you're probably thinking about the team, you're thinking about how your customers are gonna feel about it. This is all the answers to it. And mm, it, it just [00:36:20] relieves a lot of people when they are selling their business, I think, because you can relate to them and you've got, you've got that behind you so they know that you're not just, you know, some random person who's like, I'm gonna mop up all the money.[00:36:30]
Um, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And, and also, you know, like we've done, you know, like I say, 14 deals now and some of that has been true because we've got now a really good reputation for doing [00:36:40] deals. So people know that we're not gonna mess 'em bow, we're not gonna put offers in and then not be able to raise the funds later on, or not get to the point we need to get to, or, yeah.
And we see that [00:36:50] a lot. You know, we have a lot of businesses who make a decision to sell their business. They spend 20, 30,000 pound on legals. And then they get to a week before the deal, um, the [00:37:00] buyer starts trying to change things and it all falls apart. And it's because people have got nervous and actually, you know, cold feet about things.
And so actually we can say to people [00:37:10] that, you know, we've, we've done this a number of times. We're not here to mess you about our reputation is, is critical to us. And so actually they, we take away a lot of the uncertainty, I would say. Yeah. [00:37:20] Yeah. It's not just about the, um, the business though, is it, and the financials like quite often, I'm assuming you are taking on that business's teams as well.
Yeah. [00:37:30] Um, has that always been the case or have you had to make loads of redundancies or, and how does the integration work? Because we were talking about culture and people and [00:37:40] valuers, but you're not necessarily interviewing those people. They come with the business. So how does that work? Yeah. Um, so look, mixed experience, I think when we've [00:37:50] acquired businesses, we generally will.
Pick up those people and work with them and grow into them. So it might be that we bought the business and we don't need the [00:38:00] finance person that's in that business, but the reality is, is we probably will need somebody in finance within six or 12 months anyway, because we're growing business. And so [00:38:10] we tend to grow into those people, is what I would say.
Um, but there have been instances where, look, they just don't fit into our, into our culture. They don't fit into what we're about. [00:38:20] They can't work at the pace that we work at. Mm-hmm. And it just hasn't worked for both parties. And I think just being really open and honest with that person, and quite [00:38:30] often they'll come to you and say, look, you know, it's not for me.
I, I'm not enjoying it like I used to. And I think you've just gotta be a good person and just be honest with them and just say, look, we're feeling the same. [00:38:40] And, you know, let's, let's do it in a, in a fair and reasonable way. And sometimes that might mean redundancies or settlement agreements, or it might be that you just hold on [00:38:50] until they find a new role, which, you know, I, I, I sort of prefer because it just means there's less stress and anxiety and worry for those people.
So, yeah, I think it, it's, there's no [00:39:00] right or wrong around it. I think it's just, is it a cultural fit? Is it something that they wanna be involved in long term? And if it's not, then just be, just be fair and reasonable. I think. [00:39:10] Yeah, it j just be human is is the message really, isn't it? Yeah, just be a, yeah.
Yeah, just be a nice human. That makes, that makes sense. Hundred percent. Is there, um, are there more acquisitions on the horizon? [00:39:20] Are you slowing down a bit? Uh, so we've slowed down the last probably six months. We haven't done any for the last six months. We're having lots of conversations and we are.
Gonna hopefully do three to four [00:39:30] deals next year. And so at the moment, we wanted to integrate two large acquisitions that we did at the start of the year. Mm-hmm. And we also bought a business that does, uh, [00:39:40] hosted desktop. And so it's quite a different skill set to what we've got in the business. So that's taken a bit longer to integrate.
And there's some challenges around the software vendor and, and bits and pieces, [00:39:50] but it answers your question. Yeah, we a hundred percent will probably do three to four deals next year. We need to grow by about 7 million revenue next year. So we can't do that organically only. [00:40:00] So there needs to be acquisitions and, you know, for us to reach out a long term goal as how we'll continue to grow, but doing it through, uh, organic growth as well.
I love that you said we [00:40:10] need to grow by 7 million next year. Not like we want to, we need to. So what is the, the end goal for this one then? Have you got a, I'm gonna retire again by however [00:40:20] old you are in the next, in the next three years. Like what's the plot? Yeah. Well I'm 41 now, so, um, I've sort of given up on that 40 Dream I think, and [00:40:30] very much Flo Tech was a, was very much a 10 year plan for us.
And that doesn't mean that I need to disappear in, in sort of six and a half years. It just means that I wanna [00:40:40] take a, a backward step really and just be less, less involved. Mm-hmm. My, my children will be. Um, probably, you know, having their own lives and careers at that point. And so [00:40:50] it just means that I can focus on, you know, spending more time with my wife and we can just enjoy life a little bit more.
Because, you know, as you know, yourself running a business it's seven days a [00:41:00] week. You know, we don't have holidays, et cetera. My phone is always on. And so actually it'd be nice to sort of just step back a little bit. So I'd love to maybe do some non-exec roles, uh, [00:41:10] chair roles, uh, or just be involved in something more of a, an investor, um, but an, an active investor.
So, but, but ultimately, look, I just love what, what I'm doing [00:41:20] and you know, right now I can't see that stopping. Is there, um, I mean, you, you have got a family, um, and it is difficult, like you said sometimes 'cause you're always on and [00:41:30] it's hard not to always be on as well because if you enjoy what you do, it just, yeah.
It just is what it is, isn't it? But have you managed to find some sort of balance? Can you [00:41:40] switch off on week weekends? Like for your, for your, for your brain? You must have to switch off at some points. So, honest answer, no. [00:41:50] So I don't switch off. I I have a lot of holidays, so every half term I will be away.
Um, we've got, we've still got our house over in Cyprus and so I'll [00:42:00] spend every half team in Cyprus, but I've also got an office in Cyprus. And so I will have my PC on every day and I will jump in several times a day. Yeah. My phone will be going with teams [00:42:10] messages or, you know, calls from customers or whatever, but ultimately I just enjoy what I do.
And so for me, yeah, if you enjoy what you do, it doesn't feel like work. At [00:42:20] the same time, you know, you do need to switch off. I, I, I get up pretty early every morning. I go to the gym, but I'll have my phone on me. And so even at five o'clock [00:42:30] in the morning, if a customer messages me, I'll, I'll reply, which always surprises them.
But I just think what we do, which is, you know, it cyber, we, we can't [00:42:40] be offline because if somebody's business is, is completely off, yes, of course I've got business partners and we've got people in the business, but when somebody's business, um, gets a cyber attack or a [00:42:50] major outage or something happens, ultimately they're gonna wanna speak to me still.
So you are that hands-on. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I don't, I'd, I [00:43:00] don't know every, every partner that we've got, I, it's impossible. We've got 2000 partners that we support and look after. Yeah. But it's still me doing the AI webinars. It's still me on [00:43:10] LinkedIn shouting about flow tech. And so yeah, I'm, as hands-on, I'll go out and meet any partner quite often we get partners coming in to see us.
Uh, and I'll always be here to give a tour on the, the [00:43:20] offices and the, and the um, the tech teams. So yeah, definitely hands on and I always want to be as well. Is that, um, well, it [00:43:30] sounds like it's definitely by choice, you being the face of the business and sort of ambassador out there, there for that is, do you think there is, um, there's value in that for [00:43:40] founders and business owners, and are people trying to step back out the spotlight a bit too soon almost, where people need to see the, the founder and the face of the business to get that [00:43:50] value across?
Where, where do you stand on that? I dunno if there's a right or wrong. Um, but you're quite right. Yeah. Like I'm the face of flow tech. Um, I'm the one that's [00:44:00] on LinkedIn on a daily basis, you know, commenting, posting, and giving my thoughts on it. But I think, you know, our, our sort of customers [00:44:10] are SMEs and I think that still means that they want to know who they dealing with.
So even our, even our big corporates with [00:44:20] thousands and thousands of employees, um, I'll still be involved. You know, we, we took out one of our biggest partners out, um, last Friday for, for lunch for Christmas. I only ever see them once a year [00:44:30] because I don't deal with 'em on daily basis, but they, they want to have that FaceTime to feel valued as well.
And so I'll always be available for, you know, for whatever is [00:44:40] needed and. Ultimately, I think people see me as that visionary of what's coming around the corner with it when it comes to tech, ai, cyber. And so I, yeah, I, I enjoy that, [00:44:50] but again, I'm passionate about it so it doesn't feel like a, it doesn't feel like a task, you know?
Yeah. You're the right person for the job. What happens in, you know, six to 10 years though, when you are stepping back? Are you grooming [00:45:00] someone to have that same energy and be the face, or have you not thought that far ahead? Yeah, I'm always trying to encourage our team to, you know, be in the spotlight.
You know, like Malcolm for [00:45:10] example, our md I always encourage him as an md he needs to be more about, you know, in the, in the, in the face of, uh, of the call, but it's just not who he is. And so it's quite [00:45:20] difficult when they don't want that. But yeah, our sales director, you know, he's, he's posting more and doing more social events now and taking our [00:45:30] partners to the rugby and all that good stuff.
But, yeah, I dunno, I, I don't think, I don't think you can ever replace the. Entrepreneurial business owner, [00:45:40] I think is the, is the challenge. And I think that's why when I look at my previous business, it declined, uh, quite significantly when I left. And I think that was because they brought somebody in to replace me.
[00:45:50] That just wasn't, that entrepreneur wasn't that passionate person about the tech. They were great when it comes to, you know, all the qualifications of leadership, [00:46:00] but actually you need somebody who is gonna motivate and innovate, um, everything your business is about. Do you think you can teach those qualities or do you think [00:46:10] people have it and they're gonna be great leaders or, or they don't?
I think leadership is something you can teach, definitely. Um, but I think that [00:46:20] entrepreneurial thing is either you've got it or you haven't. And I, I never really realized the difference between an entrepreneur and a business owner before. I used to think they were the same thing. [00:46:30] And that was when I, that was before I, I'm set on a board of, of, you know, five other directors.
The reason being is, and I, and you know, quite open with this, our board is, [00:46:40] we all think differently. We've all got different risk tolerances, we've all got different ways of driving. And actually I realize that I'm the entrepreneurial one on that [00:46:50] board. And that does come with challenges as well. Because being entrepreneurial, you can be quite irritated, you can be quite focused, you can be quite, you know, want your own way.
Yeah. A bit of a diva [00:47:00] really, you know, as well. Yeah. I want it. I want it now. Let make it happen. Yeah. And if we were all like that, we probably wouldn't get a lot done, you know, so. So actually I think having. One [00:47:10] key entrepreneurial person on that board. It, it just works. You know, if we had, if we're all like that, I think we would drive each other nuts.
That's very true. Yeah. I totally agree. Yeah. I, I, I, um, I can [00:47:20] relate a hundred percent. Um, you've mentioned about AI a little bit earlier, and I know you've got definite opinions on that and what, what do you wish more business leaders [00:47:30] understood about AI and what, what they need from it? Yeah. Um, so I wish people were stop confusing AI with automation.
I think that's probably one of my biggest bug [00:47:40] bases at the minute. 'cause every keeps talking about AI is gonna change their business, change their world, you know, remove all these people from their business. And the reality is, is what they actually want most of the [00:47:50] time is they just want automation.
They want, you know, a task to be reduced from 20 steps to, to three, or for a system to replace that or, uh, that task that is taken up all the time. [00:48:00] And actually there's no AI involved in that. It's just automation. And so I think, I think we've gotta get away from that, but. I just think, you know, I wish people would focus [00:48:10] on the output of AI rather than the sort of input.
And what I mean by that is focusing on, oh, AI can change a picture or give me an answer to this quick [00:48:20] question, you know? But actually what we need to do is be thinking, well, rather than me spending three hours doing this task, how can I get AI to automate that for me and put AI intelligence [00:48:30] into the response and the, the work that it gives, you know, like a, like a method statement for example.
You know, how do I, how do I make that happen in an automated and AI driven way? And so I think [00:48:40] that's what I wish people would focus on, whereas I feel like we're not even scratching the surface when it comes to AI at the moment. But I could talk about that all day, so I know, yeah, I could too. And there's still, [00:48:50] there's still people resisting that conversation or like still in businesses.
No, we're not gonna touch that. Don't believe in it. It's gonna replace jobs and it's like. You [00:49:00] know, it's from the creative industry, which is the background I come from. I try and say, well, what did we feel like when Adobe released After Effects or, you know, illustrator or Photoshop, you know, but, [00:49:10] and, and it's enhanced what you do, and it's, I feel like it's the same conversation and we can't be afraid of it.
We have to have to learn to live with it. Is that [00:49:20] something you are practicing what you preach? Are you integrating into your, your business and how you work? Yeah. I think a lot of people want ai, but a lot of people aren't willing to spend [00:49:30] the money on what it actually takes to get it as part of an integral part of your business.
Mm-hmm. And so at the moment, we, we are in that sort of shape where people aren't [00:49:40] appreciating the cost of, of, you know, bringing AI into their business as well. But I think from our perspective, the way that we use it is every ticket that comes into our [00:49:50] business is analyzed by ai. And whereas before we used to hire people to categorize a ticket.
Now the AI will read the ticket and say, [00:50:00] look, you know, Jess is having this problem with her keyboard. Um, assign it to the first line team. 'cause they could, they could solve that. Whereas actually this looks like a third line problem [00:50:10] or a security issue and needs to go to a security team. So it actually removes, um, people from it.
Now, we didn't get rid of those people that used to do that task. Those people now just check that [00:50:20] task is correct. So we can't rely on AI a hundred percent. So they check is it, has it been categorized correctly? But what they can do is they can do a lot more than they did before. So all of a sudden we're not having to [00:50:30] bring new people in to do those tasks.
And so there's things like that. There's, you know, there's other ways that we we're using it around, uh, how we write tender docs, proposal documents, [00:50:40] um, how we. Um, we've got a, an out out outbound, uh, BD team, and they used to write down, every time they speak to somebody, they'd write down how the call went, what they talked [00:50:50] about.
Whereas now what we've got is at the end of every phone call, it gives us an AI output and we just copy and paste that in. Yeah. Obviously what we're working on next is copy and paste, remove, and automatically [00:51:00] inject the conversation in via ai. And so that, that's something. So yeah, there's a few ways that we're, we're using it and, but it's, you know, it's not cheap to use AI and it's, it's, [00:51:10] it can get quite expensive, but yeah, again, people have gotta look at it from a different holistic point of view, in my opinion.
Have you had any resistance from your teams internally when adopting it [00:51:20] because they think, you know, their jobs might be at risk or anything like that? Not our team, but that's probably because they're techs and they know that we're growing, so there's not a danger of of, of [00:51:30] them having to, you know, um, disappear.
Mm-hmm. But I think, obviously we've had it from. Partners where we're not speaking to the business owner and they don't wanna bring [00:51:40] it in because they're worried about, you know, who that's gonna replace. You know, so public sector are the worst for this, you know, it's very difficult for them to recommend something when they know it could ultimately lead to [00:51:50] somebody's, uh, removal.
Yeah. And so we've had that in, in cases as well. So it's, yeah, it, it can be, it can be difficult, but I think it's the, in fact, those things, I remember, [00:52:00] you know, when Tesco's and Sainsbury brought out the, um, self-service checkout, you know, and people said, oh, you're gonna get rid of Mary and Doris on the checkout, you know, and the reality was is well [00:52:10] actually Mary and Doris have just got another role in set, Tesco's or Sainsbury's, and they're still hiring, you know?
Yeah. So I don't think it's, it's not about removing people, it's about, you know, using people in a better way. [00:52:20] Yeah. In better way. So they can do more quality work, is the way that I put it sometimes. And, and lack of the rubbish that, you know, we can, we can offset. Yeah, absolutely. Is, [00:52:30] um, I mean, I don't think we've actually talked about what Flow Tech actually do and who you do it for, so, um, tell me.
Okay, so Flow Tech, we're a managed [00:52:40] IT, cybersecurity and communications company. Mm-hmm. So we support businesses across the, across the uk. Mm-hmm. With, um, being an outsourced IT department, [00:52:50] we'll support 'em on their cybersecurity and get 'em to a really good level. And then even down to the fact that putting a phone on the desk or a mobile in their pocket, that's, that's really what we do as a, as a [00:53:00] business.
And so, you know, we've got partners with, um, their own IT teams where we act as a third line, uh, support, where they just involve us in bigger projects. And we've [00:53:10] got lots and lots of partners who haven't got an IT team and we are that central point of contact for them. And so we're all about just, you know, simplifying technology [00:53:20] and.
Bringing it to partners that they thought they probably couldn't have afforded before. So giving them things like automation and helping them in their way by using Microsoft in better ways. [00:53:30] That's, that's really what our mission is as a business. What do you think the challenges are that you might face in the next year or two years in, in [00:53:40] your industry?
Um, I think the biggest challenge this probably is, is really for us, is making sure that we stay on that, that [00:53:50] sort of surf really, and making sure that we're ahead of the, ahead of the curve. Hmm. Because, you know, a lot of it companies have fallen behind and so a lot of businesses come to us [00:54:00] now and say, look, we.
Our current provider, you know, they're still just fixing our PCs and server and they're not helping us go to the cloud. They're not talking about all the stuff ICJ [00:54:10] talking about and whatever. And so for us it's making sure that we don't become a dinosaur, and so we have to keep on innovating and, and, you know, pushing forward ourselves [00:54:20] and making sure that we don't become complacent with being a leader right now.
Yeah. In terms of that innovation then, like how, how does that happen? Are these ideas that spark from [00:54:30] your brain at three o'clock in the morning or have you got work together as a team? Yeah. Where, where do those new product ideas come from? Um, I think it's working with really good, [00:54:40] uh, partnerships. So, you know, supply partnerships and listening to where they're going and talking to other, uh, tech companies that I do [00:54:50] regularly as well, and understanding where they see the market and just making sure that we're always looking at product and that we're making sure that we're staying true to ourself when it comes to [00:55:00] product.
But. For me, I would probably say, you know, I, I carry the CEO badge, but I probably carry the CTO badge as well. So I'm very technical focused around, [00:55:10] I, I love, you know, love seeing new technology, love seeing how we can help our partners with it. And so I would probably look at it differently to like a, like a, a pure technical person would.
So why I see it as how [00:55:20] can that help our partners? Yeah. Whereas a tech would be like, well, how does it help us? And so I'm actually seeing it from both sides and then I can commercialize it and, um, and just [00:55:30] make sure that once we, you know, once we deliver the testing, uh, that it's gonna change our, the way our partners work.
And does that, does that influence your next sort [00:55:40] of acquisition, um, with those new ideas that come in? Like, are you going to find someone who's already doing something similar to that, that you can improve on or, yeah. Yeah. [00:55:50] So a lot of the time when we do an acquisition, it's, a lot of the acquisitions we've done is all about scale.
And so, you know, buying a base of, uh, base of customer. And converting them from [00:56:00] transactional customers to more of a partnership model. Hmm. And so that's, that just involves, you know, give them dedicated account management, helping that partner realize that, how technology can support them [00:56:10] and help them.
And so, you know, a lot of the acquisition we've done, we've doubled the revenue within a short time because actually we can do a lot more technical ability than previously they [00:56:20] had. Mm-hmm. And so for us, uh, the, the acquisitions are generally scale led, but at the same time, we did an acquisition early this year, which was micro shade.
[00:56:30] And we actually bought that business not for the scale, but for the technology they used. 'cause they had a, like a hosted desktop model, which was allowing obviously businesses to not have everything on their [00:56:40] PC and to have it in the cloud without going to Microsoft and Amazon. Hmm. And so for us, we, we've seen a massive trend at the moment where.
Businesses don't wanna be with a hyperscalers like your, you know, your [00:56:50] Microsoft Azure and your a they, they wanna make sure they can see their data, touch their data, and, and not have to have that big hyperscaler, uh, model. Hmm. And so, you know, [00:57:00] with the whole data sovereignty as well, coming in into the uk being more and more critical on a daily basis, I'd say, um, that gave us the technology as well to be able to say, well, look, we can fast [00:57:10] track.
We could have built it ourselves and probably spent half a million pound developing testing and learning. But actually what we did was we bought a business, we've got the revenue in the customers where we can cross sell, upsell [00:57:20] to, but we've actually got the technology we can now take to market within probably six months versus five years.
Nice. Nice. What, um, [00:57:30] for, for, you mentioned you work with SMEs, so there'll be lots of, um, I hope there's lots of people listening, but hopefully there'll be lots of businesses listening who are like, actually we don't have. [00:57:40] Um, you know, a partner like Flow Tech in place, we don't know what we're doing in terms of security.
What should a small business be thinking about? You mentioned that, um, [00:57:50] uh, data sovereignty, you know, like lots of us will not know what that means. What should those businesses be worried about and why should they be getting in touch with someone like you to have those [00:58:00] conversations? I think really, um, they just need to be looking at the accreditations and compliance that the IT partner has got themselves.
[00:58:10] So we, for ourselves, for example, we've got cyber essentials plus, which basically means that our systems are tested. We have an external, uh, audit done on our business. And so [00:58:20] we understand the importance of cybersecurity and what it can, obviously, how it can affect the business. And so I think really it's, you know, for an outside business looking in, they should be looking at a [00:58:30] partner that is innovating.
But on the same side, making sure that everything they do is secure, reliable, tested. Mm-hmm. Um, and you [00:58:40] know, they, they're gonna be a partner for the long term, not just, not just a quick fix for now or not just the cheapest provider they can find. It needs to be, how can they make a difference to our business?
Yeah. [00:58:50] Why is that important? The accreditations and the, the innovation side to, to that small business? 'cause there, there'll be lots of off the shelf stuff, you know, oh, you can buy this and then you'll be, you'll [00:59:00] be safe or whatever. But you mentioned long-term partnerships. Why, why should they be worried about that?
What, what's, what's so, I think like accreditation, like a lot of, um, a lot of managed IT providers [00:59:10] don't, don't even have cyber essentials, let alone cyber essentials Plus, which is a government certificate to say, you know, you are a secure business. Mm-hmm. And so if you're not doing that [00:59:20] yourself, then really what does that say?
And so if you are given the keys to your business to a. To an IT provider, surely you [00:59:30] want to know that they're safe themselves. Yeah. And so I think that's probably the most important thing, you know, take away the innovation. If they don't take security seriously and have a, have a [00:59:40] team monitoring all your security alerts and doing all the good stuff behind, um, you know, what they talk about, then I would say, you know, that, that is, is a [00:59:50] non-starter for you.
Yeah. Um, when it comes to like innovation, I think you've got a lot of our competitors who are still trying to sell [01:00:00] physical servers or just selling Microsoft 3, 6, 5 and are actually not getting the best out of it. I think ultimately that's only gonna get worse. Like, you know, we've got [01:00:10] businesses now who are so far behind because they've never had like an e-learning platform to learn how to use things like bookings, things like, you know, um, [01:00:20] automation within Microsoft and, you know, or, or, or co-pilot even for example.
So. If you are behind now, it's only gonna get worse because at the moment [01:00:30] the market is moving so fast that what feels like behind is gonna be so far to the past. Yeah. That you're gonna get really left behind. I, I think yeah. That's terrifying, isn't it? [01:00:40] And lots of changes, isn't it? You have to have someone that you can go to and be like, I dunno what this means, what does it mean for our business?
Help us. Yeah. Help us move forward and stay ahead. Yeah. I think like there's always, [01:00:50] there's always a benefit we always come against to people go, why should we go with you? A bigger IT provider versus is like, you know, a smaller MSP that has got five staff and I know what their kids do for, [01:01:00] for their, you know, weekend plans.
Right. And I think it's lovely when you know the IT team and you've got that, you know, you've got that ability to get to know them personally and, and it's lovely. Right. But the reality is, [01:01:10] is that small IT team will not have the technical capability or the resources or the systems or the security in place that they probably should have for [01:01:20] supporting your business.
Because ultimately if that, if that managed service provider gets breached. That means that all the customers are breached as well. Right. And so the [01:01:30] security of your IT provider has gotta be the most critical part of everything you do. Yeah. There's a lot of stake. Yeah. You, you, you, you are given your spare key to that, to [01:01:40] that company, essentially, you know, and going on holidays and that's, that's really what people need to think about.
Wow. Crikey. And I'd love to go back to you [01:01:50] a little bit before we, before we round up, because you, you're obviously very ambitious. You've done lots of great things, very successful. What are you still [01:02:00] learning, and what do you think you still have to learn in terms of, you know, being an entrepreneur or building a business?
Uh, everything, to be honest with you, um, I'm not, I'm [01:02:10] definitely not the finished article. I, I'm always learning myself, always. You know, I'm, I'm currently doing a leadership training course at the moment on how to be a better leader. Um, [01:02:20] the, of this week I've got an hour one-to-one booked with a leadership coach on being a better leader and, you know, having something to communicate with.
Mm-hmm. So I am definitely not the finished article, and I [01:02:30] think, you know, if somebody thinks they are the finished article, then they, they're probably still far away from the reality. And so there, there's so much me to learn and, and I'm learning every day, [01:02:40] learning how to have business partners, how to behave differently as the business grows.
Um, the, the language that I use, the, the things that I do and the way I act. [01:02:50] Everything, everything is under the microscope as you're a growing business. So I definitely need to, to grow as an individual, and that's what I do. And so for me, [01:03:00] everything about my life is, is improving all the time in that, you know, I, I believe in having a coach for my personal training.
I believe in having a coach for business, and I believe [01:03:10] I'm a coach for leadership. And I think those three things are, are separate, but we need to continue to make sure that every one of those pillars improves every time. I love that. I love the, the [01:03:20] parallels between coaching, you know, at the gym and coaching for business.
I think people don't see it that way, do they? But it's, it's natural to have a, you know, if you are training for something, you have a coach or a [01:03:30] personal trainer, and people don't often see that in business. Have you got any recommendations on, you know, how to choose a coach? Do you, do you need a specific [01:03:40] coach at a specific time during your, your business journey?
Yeah, I think probably that's the answer really is, is um, you know, when it comes to like, and it's an easy one [01:03:50] to use as an example, but when we talk about like personal training, for me, fitness is, is everything right? And so. I basically got the, the biggest coach, you know, muscle wise that I could [01:04:00] find right in the world.
And when, you know, if one day I wanna look like that, that's who I need to listen to. Mm-hmm. Not, not the guy who's eating McDonald's on the weekend and, [01:04:10] you know, and I'm already bigger or in better shape than, you know. So ultimately is, I think as you grow and develop yourself, you just keep on needing to get better people to get you to that next [01:04:20] level.
Yeah. But at the same time, you know, it's, it's, you've gotta make sure that, you know, they can continue on that journey with you. And I think that goes with personal training to business, to leadership. [01:04:30] I think you need somebody who's been there and done it before because, you know, in my opinion, there's too many business coaches out there who have never built a business, never had success, [01:04:40] um, and they're teaching other people how to have success and how to behave.
And, and you know, it's probably one of my biggest frustrations. I, I think a business coach should come with a. You've gotta have done it before, in my [01:04:50] opinion, but yeah, no, I agree. Yeah. Like what, what are your, what have your will and sold or what have you done? Um, yeah. Yeah. On your cv. No, I totally agree.
Totally agree. [01:05:00] For, for the leadership coaching or, or, or being leader and growing that element, what do you think are the, the main qualities that you absolutely have to have to be, to be a good [01:05:10] leader? Um, be a good leader? I think you just, you just need a lead by example and not just say about [01:05:20] leadership and how we should be done.
And I think it's all about starting at the top. And so for me, when anything goes wrong in our business, and I think it's a leadership problem, I literally start from [01:05:30] the very top, which is myself. And I think, how am I behaving? Because that is clearly what is set in the tone for, as it filters down. [01:05:40] And, and if I think, well, actually I am behaving correctly and or, you know, and I'm doing these things right.
Then when is it failing in that, in that, in that sort of, uh, as it [01:05:50] drops down through the, the filter. And so for me, I think, you know, as a leader, it, it's just all about lead by example. You know, don't sort of tell people how to do something and then not do it yourself. It needs to [01:06:00] start from, from yourself.
You know, I, I wouldn't, I wouldn't take, um, I wouldn't take business advice from somebody who's not doing something themselves, you know? So I think it just starts with, with that, [01:06:10] in my opinion. That makes sense. Which is quite, which is quite a simple one, sorry. But it's, they have, I believe. Yeah, it's true, isn't it?
Yeah. Gotta practice what you preach, lead with behavior, otherwise, why should you expect anyone else [01:06:20] to, to follow you Yeah. Into that storm often. Yeah. And do you know what we, we, we see it, right? When we take on a new partner for like, it, and it's a big partner, I'll [01:06:30] generally go and meet them. And the reason I meet them isn't because I wanna upsell them or something, but I wanna see how they treat their people.
Mm-hmm. Because. How they treat their people is generally how they're gonna treat their partner [01:06:40] when it comes to it. And so if you've got somebody who doesn't take ownership, blames everybody on their team, and it's just not a very cul nice culture, the chances are that is [01:06:50] going to be what it's gonna be like when you take 'em on as a partner for it.
Yeah. So if they, if they're not taking any ownership and it's always the team's fault and you know, and this is going wrong and they're not doing anything about [01:07:00] self learning themselves, the chances are they're gonna be a nightmare to work with as well. Is that a deal breaker for you then at that point?
Depends what they pay
fair and honest answer. Love that. [01:07:10] If you can coach them, who knows? Yeah. I, I love, you know, I get asked all the time to do business coaching for people. So, you know, like I said, I get lots of calls and [01:07:20] messages and for advice and I give lots and lots of feedback. Um. I, and I do really, really enjoy business coaching.
I was actually, um, training with somebody on the weekend, [01:07:30] and I hadn't seen him for a year, and they contacted me about two years ago and said they wanted to get into property. And I've got quite a big property portfolio personally. And, and actually I saw him on the [01:07:40] weekend and he said, oh, Jay, I've got, you know, four houses now.
And I was like, wow. And I was just taken back because actually I said, how did you do it? And he went, I just listened to everything you said and I just did [01:07:50] what you said. And I was just taken back by that because sadly, I've coached lots of people and they go, yes, yes, yes, sounds great. And they never, never actually do anything with the advice.[01:08:00]
Yeah. And it was really nice to actually have that, um, put into action and yeah, just it was a, it was a quite a proud moment to actually just see that happen. Oh, that sounds like you wanna do more [01:08:10] of that then. Yeah, but it's hard, isn't it? You give advice and then it's not implemented and then you feel a bit like, oh, but when it does happen and there's results from it, that's like something to be [01:08:20] proud of.
Isn't. Do you know what I, I can count on my, on, on one hand how many people have actually come up to me and said, Jake, I'll buy you a coffee just to understand this [01:08:30] thing. And I find it fascinating that not more people ask for like, advice. You know, I think people are afraid to do it. I, I don't know, but I just think it's a fear thing of, [01:08:40] of being turned down on it.
You know, I, I went to the um, CEO Chamber of, uh, one of the biggest, um, comms companies recently. I sent a LinkedIn message and went, look, will you gimme some coaching? [01:08:50] Now we never applied being quite honest, right? Um, but you know what? I said, look, I wanna learn from you. And so I just think people don't do that enough, you know?
No, they don't. I think there's the fear around, [01:09:00] I'm feeling a little bit weak, feeling like failure. What if they say no? That's the worst that can happen. Just go and do it. You know, the amount of opportunities that have come. For [01:09:10] me personally from just that LinkedIn message or a late night Instagram dm, you know, like, I'm just gonna Yeah, yeah.
Just gonna ask the question. Yeah. And generally you'll find that people are quite [01:09:20] generous with their advice and wanna help. Yeah. Yeah. Agreed. Um, yeah, and, and just, just asking that question can get you a lot further than you were, you know, five minutes ago thinking about, oh, I'm gonna do [01:09:30] that just in case, you know?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like I, I had a coffee with, um, a corporate finance company, the management partner the other day, and, um, it was only get to get to know each other. And at the end of the thing [01:09:40] I said, look, we we're doing something with our bank at the moment, and he said, oh, just send her over. We'll have a quick look at it for you.
You know, no charge. And, and you know, it's, it's, that, isn't it, it's those nice things that people do, [01:09:50] um, uh, you know, because they've, you know, it's, yeah. I dunno. I, I think more and more people should, um, help each other and support each other. Yeah. Lead with, you know, being off service, [01:10:00] isn't it? And it does make you feel good and good opportunities come out of it, um, ultimately when you help people.
Yeah. Yeah, definitely. What does success like look [01:10:10] like for you then in the next few months or few years into personally and, and for flow tech? Um, personally I think it's just, you know, just keep on being happy and enjoying what I [01:10:20] do. You know, I am fortunate where, you know, it's not financial motivation anymore.
So for me it's about just enjoying what I do and, you know, just feeling [01:10:30] like I'm contributing to something great, which I do. From a business point of view, I think, you know, we know what our goals are for 2026 and we need to [01:10:40] make sure that we achieve them and, you know, we need to just make sure that we are always, like I say, ahead of that curve on it.
So for me that's, that's, that would be success if we achieve our [01:10:50] goals. Brilliant, brilliant. And I'm gonna bring it back to the alchemy theme to end off. Um, if you had a personal alchemy formula for success, [01:11:00] what's the one ingredient you wouldn't, um. You wouldn't do without and why, but I've asked this question quite a few times and often it's like 3, 4, 5, 6 ingredients.
[01:11:10] So feel free to go rogue. Okay. Okay. Um, I think, I think it's just be, be true to yourself is probably the one, one ingredient on it. [01:11:20] And what I mean by that is as opposed that I'm a very honest, genuine, trustworthy person. And so just keep on being yourself with it. And I think [01:11:30] that will lead to that success because if you'll, you'll build that reputation about yourself and, and that will just work and just be, yeah, just be true.
Just be true to yourself on it. [01:11:40] Love that. Super good advice. Really good advice. Could have got a bad answer I'm sure somehow. No, no. Yeah, you're right. I think we don't talk enough [01:11:50] about, um, I think sometimes, especially if you are young, I'm not so young anymore, but I remember it where you're trying to build something, you're trying and do something different and that imposter [01:12:00] syndrome's on your shoulder and sometimes you try and.
Edit yourself to fit a certain narrative or fit in a certain room. For me, it was like a room full of dudes usually, you know, [01:12:10] like, and you do, you find yourself like pairing back elements of your personality sometimes and what you care about. And I think as you get older and you do it more, you like, [01:12:20] actually this doesn't sit well with me.
I'm out. Or Yeah, actually this is something I feel passionate about, so I'm gonna lean in. But knowing the difference, you know? [01:12:30] Yeah. Do you know, I think one of the biggest things for me was when I, when we acquired the previous business, um, I never wore ties. I hate, hate ties, right. And I hate suits and all that [01:12:40] sort of formal stuff.
And I found myself, um, adapting to the other business. I started wearing the tires, started wearing the jacket, um, you know, even started wearing the [01:12:50] waist coat to work right. And I was just like, this just isn't me. Yeah. And it was a moment of realization where somebody went, Jay, be like, true to yourself, you know?
Uh, [01:13:00] which goes back the, the formula right? Is, and I was like, wow, what am I doing? Um, and so I just think just be yourself. You know? Just be, be your true self. You don't need [01:13:10] to, you don't need to change because others expect you to be that, you know? So, yeah. You know, for me, like, you know, I, I like being, I'm quite a simple home guy.
I like being home with my [01:13:20] family. I like doing quite simple things. I don't really like big flash lives and putting everything on, you know, on social media, I'm very much just be, be true to yourself on it. [01:13:30] And so I think really that, that just goes back to that, doesn't it? Of just, you know, don't, don't feel like you have to change to fit in.
Yeah. And isn't it ultimately like. [01:13:40] Such a better use of time to know that you're gonna be attracting the people that you can absolutely be yourself with the customers you can work with, the partners you can work with, [01:13:50] and you're gonna repel everyone else. And it's just gonna save so much time in the long run.
Yeah. Yeah. I, yeah, I completely agree. Yeah, because no, it takes a lot of energy to [01:14:00] be something you are not Yeah. So much energy and you need that energy, don't you? Yeah. To do all the great things and, and put, put that energy into building something. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. [01:14:10] No, I completely agree. Thanks Jay.
Thanks so much. It's been amazing. I could talk to you for hours. I think we should do a dedicated episode about AI personally. We've got more [01:14:20] time. I would love that. Um, but yeah, thanks so much for, for being here and I really appreciate it. You're very welcome. Thanks for having me as well on the show.
Thank you so much for [01:14:30] listening to this episode, brand Scale. Look out for another episode dropping very, very soon. I.