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On today's episode, using mental preparation to perform your best with Ben Keleman. Welcome to the only podcast delivering and deciphering the latest running research to help you run smarter. My name is Brodie. I'm an online physiotherapist treating runners all over the world, but I'm also an advert runner who, just like you, have been through vicious injury cycles and when searching for answers struggled to decipher between. common running myths and real evidence-based guidance. But this podcast is changing that. So join me as a run smarter scholar and raise your running IQ so we can break through the injury cycles and achieve running feats you never thought possible. We have another running researcher on the podcast today. Ben has released a paper as of two months ago and the title was mental preparation in runners gender differences, competition levels and psychological training effects on performance. And we discussed the paper in particular the findings as it relates to how people are mentally prepared for their races, how that differs from gender to competition levels, but also some practical takeaways. for you to feel more mentally prepared on the start line or in training to help with your performance. This paper in particular is available for those members who do have access to the database and the Run Smarter AI Assistant. You'll find it in December, 2024 in that folder. It might be hard to find because December was a busy month. And so there's, I think, 17 PDFs for you to go through and find what topics you're interested in, but you will find this mental preparation in that particular folder. If you'd like to learn more about becoming a member, there's obviously the link in the show notes. If you're ever interested, if you're not a member, you'll get some good insights with my chat with Ben. So let's take it away. Ben, thank you very much for joining me on the podcast today. Thanks for having me. Yeah. I'm looking forward to diving into this. I saw the title of your paper and I, uh, reached out and was very excited just to dive into this cause it's a very interesting one. Before we talk about the paper specifically, I want the audience to be introduced to you. Um, so would you mind introducing yourself, where you're from and your academic career? Like how has it shifted and evolved into where we find ourselves today? Yes. Okay. So my name is Bence Kelaman, but, um, everyone can call me Ben because it's easier to pronounce, uh, I'm 29 years old and I'm from Hungary. Uh, currently I'm a PhD candidate. the Hungarian University of Sports Sciences. I am set to submit my paper next month, so I'm at the finishing stage and doing all the finishing touches. In my dissertation I investigate the psychological profile of high-level middle distance runners and possible mental training methods that they can use. I am also a national level distance runner. My best event is the 800 meter. I have one minute and 50 seconds. I'm planning to finally break 150 this year. And both of my parents were involved in athletics. My mother was a national record holder in the 800 meter indoors and my father was a coach. So I was always passionate about distance running. And I quickly realized that most of the research in this distance running area was about the physical preparation of the distance runners. But the other two main areas of the distance running performance, which are the tactical and the mental training, are not that covered. So my PhD supervisor, who is a sports psychologist, advised me to... research that and based on my experiences with my racing I know that they are equally important and in some cases there are runners who perform good at training but can't realize their potential during racing or some runners with excellent season best can't compete in championship settings and things like that. So I was excited and passionate about that team. Excellent. I guess the combination of physical training and mental preparation, those two things are definitely required to achieve such feats or achieve someone's potential. And I think a lot of side of things, they try to get their training intensity distribution or building up their volume or trying to get their running technique or they do their strength training and they follow very much. There's a lot of research and a lot of, I guess, attention towards those things. But if anyone's ran a marathon or if anyone's competed or if anyone's, you know, tried to perform at their best, they know that there is a big psychological mental battle. I think most of the runners that are listening to this, if they're recreational, a lot wouldn't be professional or like training at a higher level to work out tactics against someone else, but they're competing against their own mind and their own mental state in something like a marathon that, you know, people hit the wall and they talk themselves out of it and they, after self-reflection, they sort of think, oh, I probably could have gone further if I didn't. psych myself out or if I had a better mental state and mental preparation. Um, and so it's a fascinating topic, fascinating discussion. And the paper that you've, I've stumbled upon was about mental preparation in runners. Um, can you talk about that study? Can you talk about what was done, what the aims and the purpose of that particular study was? Sure. Yes. Uh, so the title was, uh, The title of the research was mental preparation in runners, gender differences, competition levels and psychological training effects of on performance. So mostly this area of research works with motivation in distance runners, but there are not that much studies how actually distance runners train mentally or if whether it's whether mental training is effective or not. So the main area of research was to fill the gap between the physical training of mental runners and the physical training of distance runners and the mental training of distance runners. And also everyone can see that nowadays in the physiological side of the training, there are a lot of monitoring systems for example. For example, lactate tests, VO2 max tests, and people can monitor their progress or their level of training, but in the mental side there are not that many instruments. So there were two main aims of this research. First to get a brief and valid tool for assessing mental readiness of distance runners. For this aim, we used an English language validated sports psychological questionnaire, which is a 20 item and it was developed by Bank et al. It was called the sport mental training questionnaire. And the other main aim of the research was to see whether there was gender, difference or difference in various involvement levels, for example recreational runners versus high level runners or different race disciplines versus distance runners versus middle distance runners versus ultra runners. And the last thing was to determine if mental preparation helped the runners to be more ready for these challenges they might face. So that was the aim of our study. How large was the study? Like how many participants were involved and how much data could you collect? So with various sports clubs, we could reach out for 201 runners. And the specialty of this study was that we could manage to reach out for recreational athletes. national level athletes and international level athletes who competed for their country. There were 112 recreational athletes and 56 national level athletes and 33 international athletes and the sample was quite multinational. So most of the people were from Hungary, 71. But there were... athletes from United States and Norway, Australia, and even some national team members from the Kenyan Federation also. And the runners' race discipline ranged from 800 meters to ultra marathon runners. So we created for sub events like middle distance runners. long distance runners who competed at 5k to 10k, half marathon and marathon runners and neutral runners. So that was the participants. The, so you cast it a net, you've gone out to these running clubs or ask these running clubs to have these runners fill out a questionnaire that would determine their, I guess, you know, mental, psychological readiness, um, and then maybe ask a few questions about. mental preparation and then you'd follow those athletes to have a look at their performance as well and then kind of correlate their findings and their answers via questionnaires to then how they're performing. Is that fair to say? Actually, yes, we use the SMTQ questionnaire and compare the sub run the subscales, the different runners in the SMTQ questionnaires. So in the SMTQ questionnaires there are three big type of skills. The fundamental skills, performance skills and interpersonal skills. And there are two main mental techniques that we use. The imaginary techniques and the subtle techniques. And there is a total score. So we were interested if these measurements differ between genders or between runners who do mental preparation and who do not do mental preparation. And we added some questioners about their mental and tactical preparation, which techniques they use, how they use these techniques, in which format they use mental preparation. So these were the basic questioners. And... then the statistical analysis, we confirm the variability of this SMT questionnaire for this specific distance running population and compare the subgroups. OK. So based on the title as well, and based on what you were describing, we're sort of trying to correlate mental preparation with performance, but then also trying to extrapolate that data and saying if there were any differences. with gender, if there are any differences with distance, the certain distance events, competition levels, whether there's any difference from like the international to the national to the recreational, and whether there's any differences based on training, psychological training and that sort of stuff. So we'll kind of break all of those down as we discuss. Can you go through what you found in terms of mental preparation? versus just overall performance? What, what did the paper tend to find? Okay. So firstly, I have to, uh, just, um, uh, adjust that the performance is a quite thick, tricky term in these, uh, mental preparation field, uh, because, uh, sometimes, uh, performance and the subjective performance and not the same. Uh, in my last paper that I, uh, I mentioned, um, The result was that sometimes the athlete objectively not perform their best because external circumstances, for example weather or things like that, but their subjective performance was higher so they did everything that they could on that day. So performance is a bit tricky question in this. But the main... main results of our paper was that this questionnaire is a valid tool for assessing their mental readiness. So how the runners prepared mentally for the race and then the hardships of the race. So this questionnaire can be a valid and really a brief tool for assessing this readiness and monitoring, for example, the mental preparation. How is it going? and even coaches can fill out this questionnaire. So it was the first of the key findings. And then the next finding was that there was a little gender difference in terms of mental skills the runners used. So women tended to have use self-talk a lot more than men, but other than that, there was no... significant differences. And in terms of involvement level and race discipline, there were no statistical significant differences in any of these categories, for example fundamental skills and performance skills. But our big result was that the runners who engaged in mental preparation did significantly better in some... subscales, for example, in interpersonal skills and both in the imaginary and self-talk categories, and they did better significantly overall in the total scores than the runners who did not engage in any form of mental preparation during the training process. So in conclusion, the runners who engaged in mental preparation were... more prepared for the race than did not. So mental preparation could be a performance enhance in this. Yeah. So mainly just gauging, like when it comes to the start line, how mentally prepared are you to take on the task? And so those who are implementing those sort of strategies like self-talk and, you know, visualizing the task at hand, they come to the start line a bit more prepared to race essentially. Yes, essentially, yes. To handle hardships, unexpected events, for example, unexpected weather, some running during the charge or a takeover during the race, they were... more likely to be more prepared for this and handle their emotions and their fatigue much better than the runners who did not engage in any form of mental preparation. Okay. And so you mentioned that there was a slight difference in terms of genders where females tended to adopt more of a self-talk strategy to mentally prepare. Um, and males not so much. But males would maybe adopt the latter would maybe adopt more of a imagery type of approach. Yes, maybe. These gender differences is actually aligned with the other scientific research that there are gender differences in self-talk. So that woman tend to use more positive self-talk to get through hardships. Maybe men are more in the imaginary imaginative side, but I think there are even individual differences and each runner have to test which technique is more suitable for them. So I think that sure individual differences as well. And when it comes to competition levels from international, national, all the way down to recreational. Was there many differences in terms of mental preparation? No, actually, it was a pretty interesting result that there was not any difference in any of the subcategories and in the total scores when we compared the lower runners, for example, recreational runners to high level runners. And there was no difference. even when we compare recreational runners versus international level runners. And it surprised us that result. What would you put that down to? Do you think like, did it surprise you in that recreational runners actually do mental preparation more, or is it that like the elites do it less? Because, you know, I think most people would imagine that the elites would be doing most of this stuff. Like they'd have coaches that have like you know, um, train coaches, mental coaches, or, you know, performance coaches, and that they would practice this sort of stuff. That'd be my, I don't know, my interpretation, but how did you guys analyze that? Uh, I think, uh, basic conclusion could be that, uh, even if recreational runners, uh, engage in same activities, same mental preparation activities, they could be as prepared for their level, uh, of competition as, uh, So really mental readiness or these different psychological skills like maintaining focus, managing fatigue and emotions is a skill that if you develop and engage in those skills, you can be good at those skills. So I think it's a basic conclusion that we could... Yeah. I think that's a good way to put it. Because... If we see running and performing as a skill, like a lot of people take that on board. They're like, all right, let me work on this skill that being like running, lactate threshold training, hill, hill sprints, or something they, they work on that and get better at it. Whereas, I don't know. I think a lot of recreational runners might not see mental preparation as a skill that needs to be practiced and honed in and, um, developed to then give yourself an edge and help. achieve your potential. So it's good to know that I guess from when we look at the elites and we see their VO2 max, we see what pace they have and what paces they're holding and compared to their effort levels, it seems unattainable. But interesting to know that your mental preparation with some training can be up to the same level as what the elites are. It seems like we all have a level ground when it comes to those advantages. Yes, actually these are same skills as anything else in the physical realm. So we can practice those skills as well and get better at it and have more confidence at the start line that we can deal with those external and internal factors during the hardships of various. So definitely it's a good thing to know. We might be repeating ourselves a little bit, but I think we might just take a step back like... How do you define mental preparation for someone who isn't familiar with that term? Um, so mental preparation, uh, in short, uh, can be, uh, a practice of developing those, uh, psychological skills that, uh, enhance performance, uh, and, uh, you can manage tests and maintain focus, uh, during these situations. So, uh, you, we have to identify these, uh, factors. and then train these vectors. And yes, in short, it's this, I think. I know you've sort of touched on a few hardships and that sort of stuff that might, because like within a race, there are things that are within our control. There are things are outside of our control. You've mentioned like weather and conditions and those sorts of things. Um, but our emotions can really enhance or impede our ability to perform. And like you've, you've mentioned like identifying certain things and being in control of your emotions. And, um, using like building that as a, as a skill and as a tool, um, can be really important. If there's anyone who's never considered this, like they've never thought of mental preparation as a way of enhancing their running performance, but after listening to you and starting to build a bit more knowledge, they want to start dipping their toes into what might be feeling more mentally prepared for an event. Um, Where do you think a good starting point is for someone who's never had any experience? So during mental preparation, I personally differ through different phases during the sport event. So the first phase is the pre-race phase when you deal with pre-competition anxiety, getting good sleep before the race. being focused and calm in the start line. This is the prayer race phase. Then there is a during the race phase when you react to the hardships, maintain focus, different kind of focus. For example, when you are running alone, it's a narrower focus, but when you are running in a difficult, for example, cross country race or with other runners, you maintain a broader focus. there is fatigue, you can deal with that. If you have negative thoughts, you can deal with that. This is the in competition phase. And the last phase is the after competition phase, when you deal with the result of the race, for example. If it's a bad race, you have to deal with that, or if it's a good race, you have to deal with that too, because there are cases when the runner is doing a personal best and so motivated and... didn't want to have a time off and get injured. So I distinct these three phases. And my suggestion for a runner who never did mental preparation to master at least one or two pretty basic techniques for each phase. For example, the paradise phase, it's a key to have a plan and have a plan A and B. So have a plan for... pacing, what paces do you want to hit and what do you do if someone takes out faster or slower. So have a basic mental pram for these situations. And for the pre-race phase I have a suggestion that you should master at least one relaxation technique to control your pre-competition anxiety. ways of doing this and the pretty effective ways are simple breathing exercises. So one of the breathing exercises I use during this MSP session is a simple diagraphic breathing when you put one of your hand in the chest and one in the stomach and do really slow relaxed breathing to the belly and out and releasing the muscle tension. Or you can use the pretty simple box breathing for managing pre-competition stress. If anyone doesn't know what box breathing is, it's used by American Navy SEALs also. You imagine a box and every side of the box is for example four or five seconds, so even. You breathe in four seconds, you hold on for four seconds, you breathe out for seconds and hold out for seconds and do this for like one or two minutes. For example, in the Olympics you can see runners during the start line who do this geographic breathing exercise, so it's pretty simple but pretty effective. During the in-race phase, depending on your personal preferences, I think you should use one of the techniques that even in this paper were examined. So for example, positive self-talk or imaginary techniques. So if there is a hardship, you can use a few positive pretty simple words. For example, you can do this, you've already done that in training, and when a negative thought or a negative emotion and fatigue hits, you can use this to overcome this or on imaginary techniques. So that is two. You can use for example cognitive technique, for example many runners use this intuitively to break down the race to sections. When you are in the 30k mark in the marathon you don't run the whole marathon in your head you just get through to the next 5 km or one more km. So it's a cognitive technique. or you can use mindfulness techniques which is pretty effective as well. I use a small acronym, for example, 3Rs. Recognize there is a fatigue or a disturbing event. Release this because it's not important. It's for the actual race the important thing is just to run. So focus on your arm sync, for example, or your stride. And the last R is... to reconnect that anchor, the actual running motion. So during this e-race phase, I think based on your individual preferences, you should master one of those techniques and use and practice those on your training runs. And after the race, I think, for example, journaling is a pretty good way to handle the race results, just write through a few sentences about the race. What did you learn? How did it went? Just to get a broader picture. And these are my suggestions for a quote on Quot for this mental preparation, you have few simple techniques, but the master them. Yeah. Would it be, would you say that? people can practice these things in their training, or is it only just the day of the race, pre-race that they, I guess like your advice about planning, plan A, plan B, that would obviously be, several days or weeks before the event itself. But in relation to relaxing, breathing techniques, focus, working on any hardships that might be in training. Is this the skill that gets developed in training or is it just more on race day itself? Definitely during training. And I would suggest to divide it into sections. For example, the first would be in sitting or on cushion mental preparation when you are just sitting, having a plan or doing these relaxation techniques. And you must integrate these techniques during training runs. And a good way of progress would be, for example, in competition phase, like positive mental talk, is to start practicing it during easier runs than in harder workouts and then in preparatory races. So when you get to your goal race, it would be second nature that... Oh, if a fatigue comes, I would use this positive sentence and there will be a confidence that yes, during that last hard training session, I also use this sentence and it's, it helped me to manage and get through that, that hard part of the race. So I definitely recommend to integrating your actual training sessions, your running sessions. And I guess that highlights the importance of doing hard stuff in training as well, because that's when you can encounter some hardships physically and mentally, and then sort of have a playground for the positive self-talk and see what self-talk techniques or what phrases use, like really connect and resonate with you so that you can have, uh, see what connects, see what resonates, see what actually has a good benefit. Um, and so doing. Almost training sessions that sometimes can replicate the intensities and the paces and the fatigue and the mental struggles and that sort of stuff on race day, and then you can tie all those things in. Yes, absolutely. That, that would be key. Right. Very good. Um, you mentioned the imagery type of stuff as a technique. Um, am I during my training, am I just imagining what race day looks like? Am I imagining? What my body feels like, am I like, how would you go through a certain strategy or like honing in on that skill if you want to try some imagery? Um, uh, with imagery, uh, you can, imagery, you can use, uh, before the race, for example, if you are, uh, anxious, you can, uh, image, uh, calm and safe place, for example, the seashore. So that would be a use of imagery to relieve anxiety. or during fatigue, you can imagine that you are hitting the finish line or doing a personal best or you can image a good training session and it will be a use of ImageGenerary during the competition. So, it's a bit different use of ImageGenerary, but basically, yes, this, such as this. You mentioned focus. keeping calm for both the pre-race and like during the event. I guess people would be different, like people will approach activities different. I'm very much resonating with this whole thing because like I just had a high rocks race, which was last month. And I feel like it was my second ever race and I was a lot more nervous for this one compared to my first one. And I have no idea why. possibly because I was trying to beat my personal best. I had like a goal or a pace or a tempo that I wanted to keep to, whereas my first one was just give it a try. And at the start line, my heart rate was about 180 beats a minute. And it pretty much stayed at like 170, 180 the entire race. And I just fell flat and got really lightheaded really early on in that event. And I got dizzy in my first race and I thought it was maybe a fueling issue. So then I changed it for my second race and I car bloated and I did all these things that I thought would just keep my tank as full as possible. Yet I still had this really uneasy nervousness and the same amount of lightheaded kind of struggles throughout the race. And now I'm starting to think upon self-reflection, whether it was a bit more of a performance jitters and maybe I should work on more calming strategies. And. I did think that maybe caffeine would be a good thing for me. And so I took maybe, uh, some caffeine chews. I took 200 milligram caffeine chews like five, 10 minutes before the start line, which I think might've even like exacerbated things, which is probably why my lightheadedness and dizziness sort of came on earlier in my second race than did in my first, um, I think some people are just generally. a bit more anxious and a bit more jittery and a bit more nervous when it comes to certain races compared to others who are a bit more calm and relaxed. And like in my day to day, I'm usually quite a calm person, but I'm starting to think these, it is like a bit more of a performance thing, a performance anxiety thing, because you know, weeks leading up to that race, I was just thinking about the race and I could feel my heart rate like increase. And so that's probably like a physiological. nervousness that was showing up in my body and maybe the calming stuff, maybe it's trying to be as calm as possible leading up to at the start line and that sort of stuff. Probably something I need to self-reflect on leading into my third upcoming race. But for those people who are quite anxious, you mentioned the box breathing, you mentioned keeping calm. Is there any other particular strategies that we may not have mentioned? Yes, maybe I should clarify or add that a certain amount of anxiety is crucial for a high performance because your body prepares for these big events and we can define somatic and cognitive anxiety. So somatic anxiety when your pulse is getting higher, you get butterflies in your stomach and you're sweating. it is maybe a must for a good performance because your adrenaline is flowing and other things. So you should be not concerned to get absolutely calm at the start line. You should be a bit anxious. But the other side is the cognitive anxiety, which is the negative thoughts, the thought looping, the what ifs, what shoulds. That side, if it's too high, it can be really detrimental to the performance. So, another way to deal with it is anxiety and thought looping. For example, the mindfulness way that you don't want to stop those thoughts because it can be a so-called ironic process of mental... force, maybe. It's a good way to express this simple example of don't think to the pink elephant and you will think to it. So you just ignore, you just know that, oh, there is a negative thought or a negative emotion, but it's natural because it's a big event and you don't give too much attention to these things and just focus on... on another anchor, for example, to your breathing or to your body sensations. So, you know that a certain amount of anxiety is crucial and natural, and you don't give too much attention to these negative thoughts, so it's another way to dealing with this pre-competition stress. Well said. I think that's some really good tips there. If there is someone who, like you say, wants to do the basics, wants to dabble in and start doing some mental prep, you said that get very good at one of these things, whether it's the pre-race stuff, whether it's the during, or whether it's like self-reflection afterwards with some journaling and that sort of stuff. If someone's maybe had some experience and then wanted to do everything possible to get their PB, they've done all the training. They've done all like the, they know a lot about the nutrient side of things, about the pacing and all the training and all that sort of stuff. They've dialed everything in. What is, what can they do and how much can they do? And if they want to try to get every possible inch out of their personal best and they wanted to do the mental preparation side of things, is there anything that we haven't yet discussed today that they can put on top of this to increase the likelihood of success? Yes, so similar to the real world or physical training, I would approach the same approach with mental training. So I would either follow a coach or a mental trainer or a structured training plan. There are really good training methodologies or training plans nowadays. For example, cognitive techniques like rap. or there is physiological skills training and for example mindfulness based interventions as I mentioned MSP or MAC which is Mindful Acceptance Commitment approach. These are well proven in the scientific literature. So I would definitely have a same training plan for mental training similar to the actual physical training. when I have sessions during the week and the same structure basically. So I would not do just mental training when I feel like or when it's comfortable, but have a same structure training plan and identify those psychological skills that I need to improve, for example, maintaining focus, releasing the tension during the run and such as those skills. improve them systematically and also I would put more emphasis on the integration of mental training during training runs. So I think at the higher level, it's maybe because there are less difference between the runners, it can be more determined to the actual outcome if the runner is more prepared. For example, to hit the marathon wall and more prepared in our head to deal with these, uh, these circumstances. So I would definitely follow a structured training plan that is proved. And I would definitely put a lot of emphasis in the integration part. I think that's a great tip. Um, I think step one is like recognizing how important mental preparation is for performances and for, you know, performing at your best. And then once you've recognized those performances, to start with the basics, start with, like, if you're not too concerned about say, pre-race anxieties, but maybe it's like a mid-race, you know, battle with your own mind and you're struggling really mentally and you're talking yourself out of it, or you're too scared to maintain a certain pace and those particular hardships. If you get too frustrated because of the weather and that sort of stuff. I think those things can also come up in training and it's being mindful is just practicing about practicing your awareness and practicing where your mind goes and how to negotiate those mental hardships. And so, um, like you've mentioned before, it's a skill building upon it. And then coming up with some sort of interventions to negotiate those. Um, I think it's really cool. So once you've recognized it, You've found out what skills really work with you and what, what help, and then just practice, practice to then eventually get to game day where you have to put them into performing at your best, I think is a really nice strategy. And then yes, if you are wanting to take it to the elites, if you're wanting to really do everything possible, following a certain framework, following a certain structure, maybe enlisting some help. If you do want a mental coach or. I think there's a lot of good resources out there to help people with their mental performances and do that to level up your game. I think that's a really great tip. Anything else? Any other final tips to touch on? Maybe something that we haven't yet covered that you think might be helpful for the audience? I think that mental training or mental preparation besides the performance enhancing factor, it's... important topic that could be beneficial for mental health and enjoyment of the sport. So for example if you develop those skills it can also improve your enjoyment in the sport. So I think every runner is always concerned with personal best and how they do in certain races but it's also important too. enjoy the process, stay motivated, stay long in the game because if you are doing this for a long time you maybe will be improve more. So when you approach mental preparation there is a performance side but also I think runners should put emphasis on the enjoyment side and for example as I suggested journaling. you can reflect on why the race was beneficial for you, even if it was a bad performance, or if it was a good performance, why you are great for this performance. And I think just being more mindful about your sport and your running is overall a pretty good and enjoyable thing. That would be my last tip to focus on this. Yeah, I think that's really important. And something that I did myself, like my last race was, went horribly when considering what time I got at the end, but I think that I took away a lot of positives and I kept reminding myself just to enjoy the day and I ended up enjoying the day. But afterwards, I just kept reminding myself like this style of race is what gets me in the best fittest possible shape. And so like... sure you might run marathons and you might have marathons that don't go so well, but getting to the start line of that marathon means that you've done the marathon training and you've worked on your heart, you've worked on your lungs, you've worked on your aerobic capacity, everything for physical health and longevity and looking outside of the race. It's got you here, this love and enjoyment for whatever task or whatever sport you've chosen to do. is going to help prolong your life just in health in general. And you want to keep doing it for the rest of your life. If you continue to be passionate about it. So I think there is when things aren't going right in the moment, it is good to have a bigger perspective on the lot on life in the situation itself. Um, so then it's not all about like the heat of the moment. It's not all about this marathon means everything to me and is the most important thing in my life. Um, I think some people can step away. in those moments and can be really helpful. So great takeaway there. Great to finish on that point. I want to thank you, Ben, for coming onto the podcast and sharing your papers, sharing your wisdom. I know you've got one that's, like you say, is about to be released. And I know there's a lot of hard work that goes into these publications. So congratulations on that and good luck for the rest of the month. I've got your website as well that the audience can go to if they want to learn more about you. And Yeah, just wanted to thank you for coming on and sharing all your knowledge. Thank you for having me. ever-growing treasure trove of running research papers. Thanks once again for joining me, and well done on prioritising your running wisdom.