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In this episode of "Conversations We Learn From," learning experts Loren Sanders and Sean Stowers, explore the concept of learning agility. The discussion highlights agile learning as a vital capability in today's ever-changing workspace, emphasizing its role in fostering resilient organizations that can adapt swiftly to market dynamics and disruptions. With real-world examples from both business and gastronomy, the episode offers a rich exploration of strategies to enhance learning adaptability and responsiveness.
Key Highlights:
- Exploration of learning agility as the ability to adapt, unlearn, and relearn in fast-paced environments.
- Real-life example of a restaurant successfully pivoting during the pandemic by transitioning to virtual cooking experiences.
- Insights into how organizations can develop a learning culture that embraces curiosity and adaptability at all levels.
- The importance of leadership in modeling behaviors that inspire a culture of learning agility.
- Approaches to measuring learning agility and the impact of qualitative and quantitative assessments.
- Emphasis on the narrative behind data and its critical role in understanding organizational learning.
Quotes:
- "Being smart is knowing what you know. Being agile is knowing as you grow." – Loren Sanders
- "Learning culture and learning agility is not a poster that you can put on the wall. It is a deliberative practice from the top of the house all the way down." – Sean Stowers
References:
- "The Tyranny of Metrics" by Jerry Z. Muller
- "Narrative and Numbers: The Value of Stories in Business" by Aswath Damodaran
Creators and Guests
What is Conversations WeLearn From?
A great idea. A breakthrough on a big project. A bit of sound advice. The moment you realized it was time for a pivot, either personally or professionally. Some of our best learning comes in the form of the conversations we have with our colleagues, peers, loved ones, or even strangers. That’s the premise of Conversations WeLearn From — a new podcast brought to you by WeLearn. Learn more at welearnls.com.
Brandon Giella: Hello and
welcome back to another episode.
This is episode four of
Conversations We Learn From.
And again, joining me is Loren
Sanders, HR Learning Extraordinaire.
I'm so grateful to have you.
And we also have Sean
Stowers, CEO of We Learn.
Glad to have you both.
I'm excited about this topic.
We are going to be talking
about learning agility.
So this is a key concept because we
have talked about in previous episodes
about technology, things changing.
It is just an extraordinary time
to be, especially in a white
collar job, things just feel like
they're changing all the time.
There's market dynamics, there's
geopolitics, there's just so
much and people are worn out.
there is a growing need, for learning
organizations to be more agile in the
way they present, information content,
the way that consumers or users can
use that information and learn quickly.
So there's a lot to talk about,
but first I want to make sure that
we're talking about the same thing.
So, Loren.
What is learning agility and who cares?
Why is it important?
Loren Sanders: Who cares?
It's the ability to bob and weave.
How about that?
Learning Utility is really the ability
to learn, to adapt, to unlearn, believe
it or not, and relearn in really
fast paced and changing environments,
kind of like we're in right now.
And it's, In workplaces where
change is the only constant, it's
not about knowing everything.
It's about knowing how to evolve.
So organizations with really good
agile learners will thrive when they
can stay ahead of the trends, when
they can innovate and respond to
disruptions quickly and more effectively.
And I want you to think of it like this.
Being smart is knowing what you know.
Being agile.
is knowing as you grow.
Brandon Giella: I like that.
That's nice.
Sean what do you, what do you think?
What, how do you, how do you define
Sean Stowers: Yeah.
No, no, no.
I think, I think, you know what?
I'm going to yes and everything
Loren said and say it's also knowing
what you don't know and being open
to finding out what that is, right?
So I think it's I think it's
it is that growth mindset.
It is a It is the ability to say,
okay, wait, I don't know this.
Let me go ask, or who do I go ask?
Or where do I go find that information?
It's curiosity.
It's, it's all of those things and
applied in the moment of need, right?
Of, okay, I need to solve this problem.
Now I'm going to go do it.
So I'm, I'm actually very much a yes.
And on this one,
Brandon Giella: Okay.
So to, to wrap some kind of concrete
language around it or a concrete example,
Loren, what's a way that you've seen,
uh, learning agility be applied in an
organization that had a tangible outcome?
Is there an example that you you've
seen in your career that's been really
helpful that it's kind of inspired you
to think more about it and, and kind of
recommend a strategy if you, if you will.
Loren Sanders: What's interesting
is the example I'm going to use
isn't necessarily going to come
from a learning organization.
It's actually coming from one of my
favorite restaurants of all times.
Brandon Giella: Yeah.
Loren Sanders: It is a farm to table
restaurant and during the height
of COVID, they were able to quickly
pivot from the dining experience
to an online virtual experience.
The head chef was very conscious of not
just his restaurant and his customers,
but also all of the suppliers who were
local farmers and he wanted to make
sure that everybody had an opportunity
to thrive during the pandemic.
So he created this opportunity where
he got the food from his distributors,
sold the ingredients boxed, and
included with that sale a video in
how to make some of his best meals.
Just kind of like the meal boxes that you
get, HelloFresh, those kinds of things.
But he did it with a video where
he walked you through every step of
making this wonderfully good gourmet
meal with all fresh ingredients.
And His team was extremely agile.
So the employees were
able to ideate on this.
They were able to test it.
They were able to launch this experience
in just a couple of weeks and it saved
the company money, but it also maintained
their brand relevance and it kept their
suppliers in business during a time
when the entire world was disrupted.
And I think the lesson here
is organizations that nurture
agility, especially in learning,
adapt faster than the change.
Brandon Giella: I love that, and they help
everybody flourish, you know, everybody,
Loren Sanders: just about me,
Brandon Giella: or team.
Yeah, exactly.
I love that.
Sean, do you have an example
of something that you've seen?
It could be a pivot, like, like kind of
Loren talked about, or just something
where you've seen an organization
able to learn a new skill or implement
a new, you know, let's say venture
or a new strategy or something
quickly that that really helped.
Yeah.
Sean Stowers: I think of
a great example of that.
we worked with an organization that,
was launching a new L and D function.
it was actually super interesting
because initially when we first talked
to them, they came to us and said, Hey,
we want some help with our strategy.
And we talked about what
that could look like.
Um, and what was super interesting
about them is they actually
took a step back and went.
It took six months to kind of learn
what they didn't know and came back and
then said, okay, we're ready to work
with you, but here's what we, uh, but
here's the things we absolutely know.
Number one, we're not going to buy a
learning management system first, right?
There's certain things that
we want to focus on first.
And so I think in that example, you know,
this is an organization who was like,
Hey, we're starting a learning function.
Um, and they could have gone out
and found, you know, how to start
a learning function for dummies
book and did everything in order.
Um, but they, they didn't
know what they didn't know.
And they actually invested the time
to learn that and then come back and
say, okay, now that we've learned
some things, we're, we're, we want
to be more intentional about our ask.
And, and, you know, as a result of that,
we were able to work with them to Put
together their initial learning strategy,
their governance model, and then they
were being able to begin to apply that
and they've continued to flourish.
And I think, you know, again, because
they made very intentional decisions and
were agile and how they thought about it.
Um, I think, you know, that brought a ton
of attention and intention to the process.
Brandon Giella: Hmm.
I love both of those stories.
What I love about both of those
stories is the emphasis on humility.
You know, in one sense, it's like,
Hey, I don't know what to do here.
You know, I don't know how to
build this learning function.
I need to go to an expert like we
learned to help me understand what
I don't know and where I should
go because this stuff is hard.
This is very complex.
The world's constantly changing.
Preferences of employees
are constantly changing.
It's very difficult, but then on
the restaurant example, it's like
instead of a chef's thinking like,
oh, I need to control every aspect
of this dining experience because
this is the this is what I know
for My career the last 30 years.
He's like, hey, you know what?
This is a crazy time.
I need to step back for a second and
just say like how can I reinvent this?
How can I do this differently?
How can I serve my stakeholders
my customers my suppliers?
And I think it takes extraordinary
humility to have that kind of attitude
to approach to that You pivot like that.
I think that's, that's really cool.
So, okay.
So let's say, of course, agility
is very, very important, especially
as we were coming into 2025 here.
Uh, how do, how do I get started?
What, how do I be a more, Agile
learning department, learning
team, manager, organization.
What strategies can I, uh, think
through or adopt or implement?
I mean, even if it's, if it's like
an attitude change, like I said
about humility, like how do you,
how do you approach like building,
becoming more agile in the year ahead?
Loren Sanders: I can go first
and Sean, if that's okay.
Uh, I think one of the things
that we need to do is to focus on
creating more dynamic, more real
world type of learning opportunities.
I think that we need to
normalize experimentation.
I think Sean talked on our other podcast
about failing fast, learning fast.
I think that becomes really important.
important in terms of mindset.
We need to build programs
that include hands on things.
Um, I'm a big fan of learning labs.
I'm a big fan of in the moment
on demand, whether you call it
micro learning or something else.
But it doesn't need to be, it needs
to be continuous and not episodic.
Um, I think it needs to
promote reflective practice.
If we're not building in
time for reflection, we're
really missing something.
Um, asking questions
like, well, what worked?
What didn't work?
What would you do differently next time?
Um, who can you go to if you
need help in this situation?
Simple things like that can really create.
The ability for people to think
through things critically.
And I think something we miss often is
creating a peer to peer learning network.
A lot of times we're focused on, Oh, all
the content, the content, the content.
But when a person is in trouble at work,
they're not going to go to the content and
look it up, but they're going to turn to a
peer and they're going to ask a question.
Brandon Giella: Yep.
Loren Sanders: And the other thing is,
I think we need to lead by example.
Leaders need to model curiosity.
They need to model adaptability.
They need to inspire their
teams to do the same.
It's not about forcing the speed.
It's about how do we empower
flexibility and confidence when we're
in the middle of change, because
change is coming no matter what,
Brandon Giella: Mm hmm.
Loren Sanders: Sean.
Sean Stowers: You know, yeah, well, I'm
gonna maybe set you up for a jumping
off point because I think one of the
big thing, one of the big ingredients
to learning agility is, is the ability
to manage change and change management.
And I think so often there are big
organizational changes and learning
ends up being a part of them.
Um, but then the change
management process is forgotten.
And then, so I think From an L and D
perspective, even if our organization
thinks change management is, you know,
a four letter word, and there are
organizations out there that change
management is a dirty word, um, as L
and D organizations, we have got to
know how to guide our organization
through change, um, and to do that well.
And so I think you have to have
a level of comfort with, uh,
change and change management.
You have to have a level
of comfort with ambiguity.
Um, and and know how you're going
to get someone to the other side and
recognize that in most of these changes.
Allen D.
We are five steps ahead of the
people that we're trying to
bring ahead, bring with us.
But that's the nature of our jobs.
And I think we've talked about this in
other other settings like we're in the
business of hearts and minds, right?
And if we want the organization to
follow us, And get to where we want need
to be where leadership wants us to be.
We need to be comfortable with change
management and and be Use our hearts
and minds muscles and and to get
people to to where we need them to go
Loren Sanders: I also think
people don't recognize, Sean,
that we can help with that part.
Um, what happens is, Oh
my gosh, we need training.
We haven't communicated with anybody
in, The department who's going
to be trained about it at all.
And then it becomes a directive
and, Hey, you're going to training
next week on these 17 things.
Part of the challenge there
goes beyond change management.
Change management is what prepares
people for the change and what
they're about to go through.
The other thing is, A directive by
HR or learning and development is not
nearly as effective as a directive
with a bit of excitement from your top
level leader who's preparing you to be
able to go to this wonderful learning
that they're very excited about.
Completely different message when it's
HR or L& D, it feels like compliance,
Brandon Giella: hmm.
Sean Stowers: Well, there's no what's
in it for me You're you're missing
the with them and and that's the
point is if we're you know We need to
be able to again learn in the center
of all this What's in it for you?
Why are you doing this?
What are you going to be able to do
differently or have opportunities to
do differently on the other side of it?
And again, when we're not thinking
about learning agility and change
management in that way, we're not
communicating to our learners in that way.
And then at that point,
learning feels punitive.
Yeah,
Loren Sanders: it is the
WIMI for the stakeholder.
What is most important to that
Brandon Giella: is most important?
Loren Sanders: I'm gonna
WIMI you all the time
Brandon Giella: That's right.
That's right.
That's right.
And if you don't keep that whimmy
really front and center, it does feel
that punitive compliance kind of thing.
Like, oh, well, we got to do this
because the boss says, you know, but
if you if you have that whimmy paired
with the what's what's in it for me
as a learner, if you can connect those
two things, I think people are much
more interested in being involved.
And I think that's something I have
to remember all the time because my
business partner and I will think like.
Oh, well, we're just going to use this
new tool because it's better and faster.
And we're going to try this out
and we'll kind of push that down
to our team and like, okay, this
is why we're going to do it.
And they're like, what the heck?
I just learned the earlier tool.
I'm finally like competent in that one,
you know, and, and, but if we communicate,
well, this is why it's important that
we switch this workflow or switch this
process, I think it's really helpful
now we're just a team of 12, but I can't
imagine a team of a thousand or 5, 000
or 10, 000, how you kind of get that
change management in place, but the, the
whimmy and the with them is really key.
Loren Sanders: That WIMI
needs to go viral, folks.
Sean Stowers: but what's, but what's
interesting about something you just said,
Brendan, and I think this, this applies
to L& D leaders, is that if you're an L&
D leader and you're a department of one
or department of two, or you're an L& D
leader and you lead an organization of 400
people, the same principles and practices
of what we do and how we navigate
organizations through change apply.
It is no less complex navigating
200 percent organization.
As it is in a 200, 000 person
organization that it is in a million
person organization, all of the same
practices and principles apply and, and
I mean, they may be amplified up and
down the spectrum, but it's all the same.
And so I think that that's the thing
that we always have to remember is, you
know, if we're an L and D leader in an
organization where it's just me and I
can go hire a couple of consultants,
I've got to do everything that the
fortune 500 L and D leader is doing.
I just do it at a different scale,
but I have to do all the same things.
All the same principles apply.
Brandon Giella: That's actually really
encouraging because I feel so often like
I'm such an amateur at this but really
I mean It's the same kind of thing
because it's human like we talked about
in a previous episode that There's a
human being at the center of that and
that same psychology that same change
approach the same fear The same hope and
excitement like all that is intermingled
whether it's one person or a thousand
Sean Stowers: yeah.
Hey, learning leaders get
imposter syndrome too.
Same thing with your employees.
I mean, we all get it.
So like, but again, I think that's
super important to remember.
And I think when you talk about
learning agility, it's as important to
a 200 percent company as it is to you.
You know, a fortune five, right?
It is going to be as important.
And, and, and, you know, this
is, you know, again, this
is the work that we as L.
A.
D.
leaders do day in and day out.
Brandon Giella: That's right.
That's right.
So a big component of scaling and working
at a larger company is, of course, all
these things that we're talking about.
But measurement is a really key
component when you're thinking about
learning either adoption, agility,
the ROI component of like, if I'm
going to invest in this initiative,
or I'm gonna invest in this tool.
How do you, how do you guys think
about measuring learning agility?
Either individually at
an organizational level.
And for example, one thing that I think
of like Loren, you brought up like.
That fail fast kind of mentality.
And so you've got, uh, in a sense,
like if you're in the middle of a
big change or either internally or
externally, you're forced to change
from the market or some other factor,
people need some grace to fail a bit.
You know, but that thinking as
a leader, well, that's scary.
How much is this going to cost me?
You know, but I think if, if you can
measure it well, then you can kind of do
that calculation of that ROI component.
So that's kind of a broad question, but
I'm thinking, how do you guys like measure
this and make sure that we're actively
learning and being agile and flexible?
Loren Sanders: and let me be clear.
We don't measure ROI for everything.
That would just be entirely too much.
But I think it's important to
measure things at the individual
and at the organizational level.
You And kind of also at
the development level.
So at the individual level, you can
really use self assessment tools to gauge
adaptability, risk taking behaviors,
openness to feedback, that kind of thing.
You can leverage 360 degree feedback,
even if it's not the standard, you know,
In the Box 360, you can get feedback
from the leader or other peers in
addition to the person's own feedback.
You can track behaviors like willingness
to try, for example, or willingness
to take on a stretch assignment and
take a risk to do something different,
or willingness to propose solutions.
At the organizational level, you can
assess how quickly teams are adapting to
and applying what they're learning or what
the We're talking change management, how
quickly they're adopting to the change.
You can look at how often employees
collaborate versus knowledge hoard.
Share insights, learn from their failures.
are we making the same mistakes?
Are we making new ones?
New mistakes are wonderful.
The same mistakes, not so much.
and, You can analyze innovation metrics.
So how many ideas were tested?
How many solutions were implemented?
How much time was taken to pivot
when something got disrupted?
And then if we're going to develop
learning agility, I think we have to
look at stretching people as Sean talks
a lot about talent mobility, but what
are some things we can do that push
people outside their comfort zone?
comfort zones on purpose.
how do we continue to grow people's
mindsets in a growth mindset kind of way?
How do we teach people to view setbacks
as not a problem, but as a potential
opportunity to do something even better?
And if we become more agile, then we're
embedding continuous learning into
everything that we do through continuous
feedback loops in that fail fast, fail
forward thinking into every bit of work.
And I think there's a quote or something
that says the only sustainable competitive
advantage is an organization's ability
to learn faster than the competition.
Sean Stowers: I think the one thing
I would add to what Loren just
said is, it's actually two things.
So number one, I think measuring
learning agility like any other aspect
of learning, it's not one measure and
the data doesn't sit in one place.
So you're going to have to know, Who
are the people in the organization?
And where do you get the information
that you need in order to bring
together the data and then
ultimately tell the story, right?
So it's not like there's a single
report that you can run in the LMS.
It's going to tell you what
you're learning agility is.
So just number one, you have to know that.
I think to this is where, um, you
know, to borrow, um, you know, from
our friend, Aaron Delgadi, who some
of us were talking about earlier.
This is where you have to be
an anthropologist, and you have
to go and have Conversations.
This is the conversation that you're
having with your stakeholders.
This is the conversations you're
having with your senior team.
If you're building, you know, an annual
survey to talk about the effectiveness
of the learning organization.
You want to have questions in that
survey about learning agility to see what
people are saying in the organization.
So I think that that's the other
piece around this is that this
isn't something that your LMS
is going to tell you you have.
This is going to be a in your face
conversation in the field, sleeves rolled
up, gathering examples of how it works,
how it doesn't work, where you need to
continue to, to approach this and and
then bringing that story together as
part of your overall learning metrics.
And
Loren Sanders: need organizations to
ensure that their leadership behaviors
are inspiring that culture of learning
agility across all the levels of the
organization, because they will set
the tone for that agility by modeling
curiosity, vulnerability, adaptability.
So when they ask powerful
questions, when they celebrate
experimentation and Ah, failure.
Or when they share their own
journey of how they got where they
got, all that becomes important
because that builds trust.
Well,
Sean Stowers: what we're talking
about is really it's interesting.
We're talking about learning agility,
but it's modeling the growth mindset.
Right.
We need to know that everyone in the
organization can have that growth mindset
because that's when they're most open
to learning, can be most agile about it.
And I think that, you know,
Loren, that's a great point.
If it's not modeled from the top the, the
rest, no matter how much great work the
learning organization can do, it's that
that that learning agility is actually
gonna be stifled if, if leadership
isn't modeling those behaviors as well.
Brandon Giella: It's setting an
attitude or a tone that creates the
environment or the culture that creates
the behaviors that you're looking for.
Really?
You
Sean Stowers: And then you get to the
learning culture and there, there we are.
Brandon Giella: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Loren Sanders: and there's risks
for organizations that neglect it.
Brandon Giella: Hmm.
Loren Sanders: You know,
you're risking irrelevance.
You're risking disengagement
of your employees.
You're risk, risking
fragility during disruption.
So your risk is becoming static
while the world moves forward.
Brandon Giella: I wonder, this maybe is
a bit of a hot take, but do you think
that the, the emphasis on measurement
may actually stifle some of that culture
behavior that you're looking for?
What comes to mind?
Cause you guys were talking about
like that human centered approach.
We've talked about that quite a bit,
but, um, but there are so many qualities
about what makes a great learner or a
great culture that are hard to measure.
They're, they're qualitative, you
know, or they're just like, you
kind of know it when you see it.
And I'm thinking of this book
called, uh, the tyranny of metrics.
And it talks about how not everything
that counts can be counted, but also,
uh, when you do introduce, um, uh,
ways to measure or different metrics
or KPIs that you have in any kind of
initiative, you can actually like, uh,
your, your, your teaching to the test.
And it's not actually teaching, you
know, you're just teaching to make
people pass that score, you know So i'm
wondering maybe that's kind of a jumbled
thought but i'm wondering if there's
something in there that that to create
the culture You're actually looking for
with that attitude and those behaviors.
It actually might be You
might be over measuring.
Is that something that
resonates with you guys?
Loren Sanders: This is
such a soapbox for me.
I think we need a whole
other podcast on this.
But suffice it to say that
qualitative and quantitative matter
Brandon Giella: Yeah
Loren Sanders: both, and
you cannot just measure with
quantitative measurement tools.
And
I'm trying to choose my
words carefully here.
Nobody told me there would
be math is not a good excuse.
Sean Stowers: I, I would just add to
what Loren says, and I think that as
L& D leaders, Where when we have for a
very long time as a profession operated
from this place of we want to sit at
the table We have we have for whatever
reason gravitated to the quantitative
side of this thinking that that's what
our CFOs and our CEOs and our CEOs want
and I think if you talk to a CFO the
CFO is like I can do the math I want to
know what's behind the numbers, right?
And I often talk about like when when
you know with financial statement
analysis when when accredited analysis
is When you teach credit analyst, um, the
most interesting things in the balance
sheet are in the footnotes, right?
It's the narrative in the footnotes.
And so I think we, as, as, as
the L and D professionals have to
remember, it's not just the numbers,
it's what's in the footnotes.
It's the stories that are told
in the management discussion in
the financial statements that
become the most interesting for.
For the narrative, right?
The numbers, the numbers are going to
be the numbers, and there are people
there that can math the numbers,
but the story behind the math, um,
that's, again, hearts and minds, so.
Brandon Giella: Could not agree more
there's a book actually called narrative
and numbers and The the author is
oswald demoderen and if you know who
that is, he is a nyu stern professor
He's the valuation guru like he is the
financial statement expert of the world
Sean Stowers: Yeah,
Brandon Giella: and
Sean Stowers: the way, by the way, he used
to train Wall Street analysts on financial
statement analysis at places like J.
P.
Morgan and Moody's, etc.
Brandon Giella: Yes, yes, yes.
And he argues for the value of
the story that you, you can have
all the spreadsheets in the world,
but if you don't have the story,
you're losing, if anything, half
the value of your valuation, you
Sean Stowers: Yeah.
Yeah, you know what, can you put,
can you put those two books in the
show notes, Brendan, for anyone who
wants to, who wants to see them?
Can we make sure we put those in the show
Brandon Giella: Yeah.
Yeah.
They're great books.
Yeah, great books.
I have a friend too that, uh, he leads
a PR agency and, uh, and his whole thing
is crafting the story around the CEOs.
You know, venture and it's, and
you can have all the financial
models and everything, but it
is the story that is so key.
Sean Stowers: Yeah,
Brandon Giella: I love that.
Sean Stowers: it's the
stories that stick with us.
I mean, seriously, what, tell me the
last time you remembered a complex math
problem, but you remember the stories.
Brandon Giella: that's right.
Sean Stowers: It's, it's, it's, it's
the stories we remember, and again,
that's what the Hearts and Minds
part of what we do is all about.
Brandon Giella: Amen.
Well, Loren, any final hot takes on
learning agility that if you were
queen for the day and everybody
listened to you and would just follow
your advice, what would you say?
Loren Sanders: I would say focus
on your leadership behavior first,
because you have to acknowledge
the risks of stagnation.
You have to embrace technology as
fuel, but don't forget the people and
organizations that truly embed learning
agility into their DNA will create
a more resilient, more innovative,
and more future ready workforce.
Brandon Giella: Sean, any closing advice?
Well,
Sean Stowers: a poster that
you can put on the wall.
It is a, it is a deliberative, a
deliberative practice from the top of
the house all the way down and that
is the only way it can, it can work.
It can't be a slogan.
Loren Sanders: love that.
Can't be a slogan.
Brandon Giella: with that, we're
going to, we're going to create some
great culture this year, but it's
not going to be straightforward.
I love that.
That's great.
All right, you guys, thank you so much
for your expertise, your time, and
I'm so excited about next episode.
We will see you then.
Sean Stowers: Great.
Thank you.