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Join the Youthworks Ministry Support Team as they discuss how to have an effective youth and children’s ministry in every church in conversation with local ministry workers as well as national and international voices.
Get in touch - effectiveministrypodcast@youthworks.net
ZOOM0045_Tr1: I'm just reading, reading
a little bit of a quote here, and this
is from, , Toby Knights, who, , spoke
at the launch event for , this resource.
And what he said, which I think
was, was really fascinating, kind
of right on point here, was this.
He said, , "This resource is
important because it meets
our culture right where it is.
In 2026 in Sydney, the core
dynamic at play for teenagers
is no longer truth, it's harm.
The deepest question teenagers
ask is not, 'Is the gospel true?'
It's, 'Is the gospel good for people?'
And the prime battlefield for
that question at the moment
is gender and sexuality."
, He goes on, he says, "It's
not, 'Is Christianity right
about sexuality and gender?'
It's, 'Is Christianity oppressive
to sexual and gender, minorities?'"
Yeah.
Um, really fascinating- Yeah ⦠kind
of like little, little quote there.
Yeah.
Tell us a little bit about how that
sort of, um- Yeah ⦠resonates.
ZOOM0045_Tr3: yeah.
I mean, Toby connected it so well.
I, I was reallyâ¦
I love that, that statement 'cause
I, I think that is really true, and
that connects to that vibes feeling of
people don't really care if something's
true if it feels wrong to them.
You know, truth is relativized and, and
less relevant to the, like, does it feel
good, um, kind of question that we have.
Um, and so we're really
kind of relativizing things.
And actually, what I deep down
fundamentally believe is that the,
the Bible is both true and good.
The gospel is true and good.
Both of those things are true.
Um, and so you can actually have both.
You know, I think our culture only
wants what they think is good.
They don't care about what is true.
Sometimes as Christians, we can only care
about what is true and not worry about
talking about the way things are good.
Um, but I really believe that, that
the gospel is both of those things,
and both of those things for everyone.
ZOOM0045_Tr1: welcome back to the podcast.
, I'm Al James, and I'm
here with Simon Swadling.
Hi, Simon.
ZOOM0045_Tr3: Hey, lovely
to be back on the podcast.
Yeah,
ZOOM0045_Tr1: this is not your first time.
No.
Yeah, yeah.
I remember we, we had a good
conversation about, um, an article
that you wrote about, um, identity-
Mm-hmm ⦠and how you shouldn't
find your identity in Christ.
Yeah.
Wait, that's not quite right, is it?
ZOOM0045_Tr3: is it?
Yeah.
That's, that's the baseline idea.
A little bit more complex than that.
Yeah.
ZOOM0045_Tr1: yeah.
Um, but today, , we're gonna be talking
a little bit about gender and sexuality.
Mm-hmm.
, And in part because you haveâ¦
I mean, I've been, , aware of you
doing, we've been talking about
this for a little while, but you've
been working hard over a number of
ZOOM0045_Tr3: Yeah, a number of years.
Three years, really.
ZOOM0045_Tr1: Yeah.
Yeah.
To, to produce a new resource for youth-
Mm-hmm ⦠on gender and sexuality.
Um, it's a fantastic resource.
It's a video resource, it's worth
ZOOM0045_Tr3: that's right.
Yeah
ZOOM0045_Tr1: yeah.
Um, I haven't seen all of it, but the,
the couple of episodes that I've seen,
um, are just really, really helpful.
, And, uh, just the tone that you go
about, , producing this with and
presenting with, I think, is just
really, really useful for young people.
So, but that's what we're
gonna be talking about.
We, we, we, we will talk a little bit
about your resource, but- Yeah ⦠in some
senses, we want to talk about just that
issue of gender and se- sexuality as well.
Um, so I mean, Simon, I mean, I've said a
little bit about it, but why don't you say
in your words- Yeah ⦠like, what is this
ZOOM0045_Tr3: Yeah.
Yeah, so, uh, it's been, I've been
working on it for quite a while, and
it is linked to that identity article
that I wrote a little while ago.
They both came from, um, research I did,
did in my last year at Moore College,
um, thinking about, um, our identity
obsession in culture now and what a
good Christian response to that is.
Um, and so this resource has really come
out of the research that I did there, um,
where I really worked to build a bit of
a, um, a theological anthropology that
helps you engage with what life looks
like now in the world and, and just can
help you think about how to approach
life if you kinda understand how God
has made us, what a good theological
anthropology is, 'cause I think
that's, that's really foundational, and
sometimes we can forget how important
laying those good foundations are,
um, and we're culturally very confused
about what it means to be human.
Um, and so I was taking that, that
learning about what the Bible says
about who we are and how God has made
us, um, and then taking those things
and trying to build a, a holistic
theological anthropology, um, but one
that does particularly apply to sexuality
and gender for, for multiple reasons.
I think partially that's the lens
I was approaching it from with my
own, um, journey and understanding
coming through those things.
Um, I was also, uh, I think they're
really the most pointy parts of
our cultural meeting our, our
Christian narratives and things.
That's, that's where we feel this
tension quite strongly, so I think we
need a lot of help thinking about how
to interact thoughtfully in that space.
So
ZOOM0045_Tr1: like, as
in that's, that'sâ¦
I mean, just to pick up what you're
saying there, like that in some ways
that's one of the spaces where, um,
our culture and our faith might kind
of rub up against- Yeah ⦠each
other most strongly and m- m- or most
uncomfortably maybe.
yeah, yeah.
yeah.
Yeah,
yeah, yeah
Yep.
Um, and so if I, like, I'm gonna, you
know, I've, I've got a meeting with a,
a youth minister coming up soon, and
I wanna tell him about this resource.
You know- Yeah ⦠like, what's the
two, what's the two centime- uh, two
centimeter, two sentence- Yeah, yeah,
yeah ⦠um, two-sentence pitch?
Yeah.
Like, what's the, what is it?
ZOOM0045_Tr3: what is it?
Uh, so it's called The Story of Us, and
the pitch is, is to create a space that
helps youth think thoughtfully about,
uh, our culture, about what it means
to be human, and engage with what the
Bible says, and show them how beautiful
the, the answer is in the Bible of what
it means to be human, what it means to
follow God, um, and why living in line
with that is good and beautiful and true,
um, and particularly thinking about what
all that means for sexuality and gender.
I think that was longer than
two sentences, but- Well,
ZOOM0045_Tr1: no, uh, well, I
mean, depends on how you construct
ZOOM0045_Tr3: Yeah.
ZOOM0045_Tr1: Yeah.
Um, a few dot dot dots
ZOOM0045_Tr3: Yeah.
ZOOM0045_Tr1: stuff.
Yeah, yeah, yeah
Um, I mean,
I think that that's brilliant.
Like, I mean, and you, you're,
you're taking very seriously the
capacity for teenagers to- Yeah
f- to think deeply about these issues.
Yeah.
And that's certainly the tone
that you, that comes across in
the episodes that I've seen.
Yeah.
And I really appreciate your
thoughtful approach, approach to it.
I, I wanna ask, um, why
did you produce this?
I mean, obviously you've got a
background of research there- Yeah
from, um, I, I presume you did, like,
a, a big project on it in, in, um-
Yeah ⦠fourth year at Moore College.
Um, but why, yeah, why, why-
Yeah ⦠produce this for teenagers?
ZOOM0045_Tr3: Yeah ⦠produce
this for teenagers?
Yeah.
I think, uh, I really feel for
teenagers thinking about this space.
I mean, most of my days is kids
ministry these days, but I've done
a bunch of youth ministry as well.
Um, and I just see all the time
in conversations with them just
how much they feel these complex
tensions of wanting to be faithful
to Jesus, but being in a culture that
really pushes in other directions.
Um, particularly in the, in the West,
these issues around sexuality and
gender are very present and immediate
in very obvious ways, um, particularly,
um, for youth in schools around there.
Um, and so I just really wanted them
to have both a, a sense of confidence
in the gospel and in its goodness,
'cause sometimes I feel like we
can feel apologetic about what the
gospel says with, with an awareness
of the ways people have talked
about it unhelpfully in the past.
And
ZOOM0045_Tr1: And when you say
apologetic, do you mean, like, sorry for?
Yes,
ZOOM0045_Tr3: sorry for.
Not like trying to explain, but actually
being like, "Oh, we're really sorry that
the gospel says this about sexuality."
Mm-hmm.
But actually, I, I want them to have
confidence in the goodness of it,
alongside also having a growing sense
of understanding and compassion for
the different perspectives people
have, and I think that's a real
challenge for youth particularly.
Um, and I also think youth in, in
our current age are not particularly
encouraged to question their worldview.
They kind of, uh, the individualistic
mindset that we have is you kind of,
you're dropped into your way of thinking,
and that is the way of thinking.
It's the only way the world works.
I think that's just how
we think as youth, really.
You know, we're kind of understanding
the world, and we've gotta
understand it through our framework.
But I really wanted this resource to
be an opportunity to kind of open up
that space a little bit more for them
to think about the cultural narratives
they're engaging with, to, to think about
those things, to set them up well, um,
to engage with the culture, not even
just on issues of sexuality and gender.
The, the hope is that while this
resource is particularly geared
towards that, there'll be things
in it that will just help youth
engage with our cultural narratives,
because we're so confused about what
it means to be human as a culture.
You know, discussions around
AI have big implications for
these kind of things as well.
Um, and so I really
wanted this resource to
ZOOM0045_Tr1: oh, I was gonna say, it,
it does, it feels like that question,
I mean, I was talking with my teenager,
like- Mm ⦠a 17-year-old son, and,
um, and we were talking about AI.
Mm.
And it really boiled down to, we
were actually talking about, you
know, will he do, you know, what,
what might he do, um, post year 12?
Will he study an arts degree?
Will he take a gap year?
Will he, will he get into
some kind of hands-on trade?
Like, all these sorts of
different possibilities.
uh, we're talking about AI, and we were
talking about how, you know, in order
to kind of think deeply about that,
you really do have a-- need to have
an understanding of what a human is.
Mm.
Yeah.
Because otherwise you, you just have no
hope to kind of navigate the terrain.
Like- Yeah ⦠you know, like, uh, if
an, if an AI produces a, uh, a song
that is equally musical- Yeah ⦠and
lovely to listen to and that kind
of thing as a human producing it-
Yeah ⦠does that mean that it's, um,
you know, as valid art as if a humanâ¦
Like- Yeah ⦠the answer to
that question really depends
on what you think a human is.
Yeah.
Um, so I, I mean, I think it's, it's
really- Yeah ⦠it's a really, really
interesting thing- Yeah ⦠to kind of go.
And obviously, those anthropological
questions will be, um, really
important for gender and sexuality.
Yeah.
But something you said a moment ago,
which is-- it piqued my interest.
You, you talked about the idea
that our culture doesn't really
think about worldview very much.
Mm.
What-- Say a little bit more about
ZOOM0045_Tr3: Yeah.
Well, I think weâ¦
Because we're so individualistically
geared, and we really want people
to kind of, I don't know, think for
themselves and be who they are, and
there, there's something good in that,
which I talk about in the resource.
But it just means we've, we've relativized
truth to the point of experience.
And so we kind of, we don't question the
way we think about things, we question
the way other people think about things.
And we're not really encouraged to reflect
on our own beliefs and what's formed
our own beliefs because we base what's
good to do basically on vibes, you know?
This feels like the good thing
to do for me, so I'm gonna do it.
Yeah.
Like, that, that way of thinking doesn't
really encourage you to, to reflect
on why you think that thing is good.
Yeah.
Like, what's the underlying
beliefs that are leading you to,
to feel that way about something?
Um, and we kind of really ignore that
as a culture just from the way we're set
up to think about who we are as people.
ZOOM0045_Tr1: Mm, because if, if your
fundamental ethical driver is kind
of what comes from deep within me- Mm
and the desires and the things that
I wanna do or the things that I've
always wanted to do or whatever- Yeah
ZOOM0045_Tr3: um, that-
ZOOM0045_Tr1: That means that that's
true, and things that rub up against
that are false or are oppressive
or are- Yeah, exactly ⦠you know,
difficult to deal with or whatever.
Um, yeah, that's really fascinating.
I mean, um, one of the, one of theâ¦
I'm just reading, reading a little
bit of a quote here, and this is
from, , Toby Knights, who, , spoke at
the launch event for , this resource.
And what he said, which I think
was, was really fascinating, kind
of right on point here, was this.
He said, , "This resource is
important because it meets
our culture right where it is.
In 2026 in Sydney, the core
dynamic at play for teenagers
is no longer truth, it's harm.
The deepest question teenagers
ask is not, 'Is the gospel true?'
It's, 'Is the gospel good for people?'
And the prime battlefield for
that question at the moment
is gender and sexuality."
, He goes on, he says, "It's
not, 'Is Christianity right
about sexuality and gender?'
It's, 'Is Christianity oppressive
to sexual and gender, minorities?'"
Yeah.
Um, really fascinating- Yeah ⦠kind
of like little, little quote there.
Yeah.
Tell us a little bit about how that
sort of, um- Yeah ⦠resonates.
ZOOM0045_Tr3: yeah.
I mean, Toby connected it so well.
I, I was reallyâ¦
I love that, that statement 'cause
I, I think that is really true, and
that connects to that vibes feeling of
people don't really care if something's
true if it feels wrong to them.
You know, truth is relativized and, and
less relevant to the, like, does it feel
good, um, kind of question that we have.
Um, and so we're really
kind of relativizing things.
And actually, what I deep down
fundamentally believe is that the,
the Bible is both true and good.
The gospel is true and good.
Both of those things are true.
Um, and so you can actually have both.
You know, I think our culture only
wants what they think is good.
They don't care about what is true.
Sometimes as Christians, we can only care
about what is true and not worry about
talking about the way things are good.
Um, but I really believe that, that
the gospel is both of those things,
and both of those things for everyone.
Um, I think particularly we can
have this narrative that the
gospel is especially oppressive
to sexual and gender minorities.
Um, and you know, there's been some
truth to that in the past in the way
that Christians have mistreated people.
But I think at heart, the gospel
is good for everyone, including
people in those positions.
Um, and I really wanted to unpack
that in this resource, to unpack the
ways that the gospel is true, but the
ways that it is good for everyone,
um, including people who have complex
experiences, feel outside of the norm.
Um, there is beautiful, good, freeing
truths in the gospel for them as well.
ZOOM0045_Tr1: Mm.
I mean, and you just said a
moment ago, you talked about
the idea of uncomfortableness.
And, and, uh, like, I'm just
thr- throw this out there.
I'm thinking about this on the spot
right now, but it, it does seem in some
ways if the gospel is both good and
true, that there does need to be some
room for, um, truth being uncomfortable.
Yeah.
Yeah.
What do you think about that?
ZOOM0045_Tr3: Yeah, absolutely.
And, and I think weâ¦
I think sometimes we know that.
I, I, in the resource I talk about the way
we think about exercise as, as a little
bit of a, like a, a example of those
kind of things, like often uncomfortable.
We, we'll go through something
difficult, um, because we do know
that ultimately it's good for us.
A- and so we do have some space for
thinking about that kind of thing,
but we, we don't really have that much
space to sit in what is uncomfortable.
Um, and, and I really wanted to,
to open up a space to, to sit
in that discomfort a little bit.
Um, and I think sometimes maybe, uh,
uh, we can jump very quickly to The
uncomfortable part a- and kind of
really just go, "Okay, well, we're
just gonna rip the Band-Aid off, and
we're gonna go, 'Hey, the Bible says
that marriage is for one man and one
woman, and it's a lifelong commitment.'"
ZOOM0045_Tr1: Suck it.
ZOOM0045_Tr3: Yeah.
Yeah, that's right.
We can just go straight to
be like, "It's uncomfortable.
We know.
We're just gonna make it
uncomfortable for you."
Um,
ZOOM0045_Tr1: and like- So you can,
you can rush to the uncomfortable.
Yeah.
You can kind of go, "Oh, well,
the Bible's uncomfortable.
You know, the truth is
uncomfortable, so deal with" Yeah.
"Like, let's not shy away."
Yeah.
"Let's deal with that."
But I, I, I think that, you know, we
talked about there needs to be some
room for discomfort- Yeah ⦠in truth.
Yeah.
And yet, um, maybe we also at
the same time- Yeah ⦠need to
recognize that maybe there can be
compassion in- Yeah ⦠the discomfort
ZOOM0045_Tr3: Yeah.
And I think you want to give people a
secure place to go into that discomfort
from, and I think the gospel and the
Bible does that so beautifully for us.
It gives us this space of security in our
position in Christ and in our salvation
before Him, and so we can lean into these
spaces that might make us feel a little
bit uncomfortable because actually we're
confident in that underlying truth.
Um, and, and that helps us be less
anxious in how we engage in these
questions, 'cause I think we can be
quite anxious about these things.
We're aware that it's
uncomfortable for people.
We feel uncomfortable engaging
in something different.
Um, but if we work really hard to build
this foundation of the goodness and the
truth of the gospel, um, and in what it
looks like for us to be humans following
God, to be united with Christ, um, I think
that opens up a space for us to lean into
what might make us discom- uncomfortable.
Um, and I think maybe that's partially
why the culture runs away from discomfort
so much, because we don't have a, a place
of safety to experience that discomfort,
whereas the Christianity offers us
the safest place you can be, united
with Christ, to- Yeah ⦠experience
discomfort of living in the complex
ZOOM0045_Tr1: Yeah.
I mean, that, and that sort of accords
in some ways, or at least rubs up against
some of the research that you see in,
um, in resilience of faith- Mm ⦠where
spaces of doubt are really important.
Mm.
So to be able to wrestle with- Yeah
⦠with difficult, um, and pertinent
and, um, and, you know, questions of
existence and experience that, that
feel uncomfortable, being able to
wrestle with those fr- in a, in a s-
in a, I guess a- Yeah, like a secure
space is really good for faith, right?
ZOOM0045_Tr3: Yeah, absolutely.
ZOOM0045_Tr1: Yeah.
Um, I mean, One of the things that can
happen when you talk about these things
is you just kind of end up debating
whether something is right or wrong.
Yeah.
Um, and you just kind ofâ¦
It all just, it- actually all
the discussion, um, ends up in
the, the ethical pointy end- Yes.
Yeah ⦠the action itself.
Yeah.
Um, but your resource hasn't really
kinda gone down that- Yeah ⦠track.
Yeah.
Talk to us about that.
ZOOM0045_Tr3: Yeah.
I, I think it partially be- came from
me being a little bit fed up with
how the conversation often ends up in
topics around sexuality and gender.
We just kind of have a like, "Yeah,
well, my i- my way of living's better
than yours," kind of this quite
combative, like, "You do this thing,
but actually this thing's better,"
and we really focus on what you do.
Um, and I think that really closes
down the conversation, um, and really
doesn't let people who think differently
e- engage well and understand.
And so this resource, I really
wanted to start looking what is
underlying those motivations.
And like we talked about, you know,
helping people think about their worldview
and, and the culture that's shaping
them, um, and so where those ideas come
from, because that opens up the space
for conversation more, and it also
helps you find those common grounds.
You know, often in, uh, discussions
around sexuality and gender, there's
a huge part of it that's all about
wanting to feel seen and known and
appreciated for who you are, and
that's Just a basic human longing.
That, that's not, uh, like
anything other than that.
And so-
ZOOM0045_Tr1: there's room in a faithful
theological anthropology for the,
the idea that humans wanna be- Yeah
you know, seen and known.
ZOOM0045_Tr3: Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, exactly.
We're made for relationships, and
so wanting to be seen and known and
loved is just core to who we are.
And so actually, if you look at that
undenying, underlying, uh, longing,
you can speak to that and show the
way that the gospel fulfills that in
a way that is beyond any other thing
that you could do or look to in life.
And I think that just opens up the
space to say, "Hey, you really want
to be seen and known and, and loved.
Well, here's how Jesus does that
in a way that no one else ever will
be able to, a-a-and in a way that
is ongoingly fulfilling because
it is true and remains true."
And, um, and so I really wanted to spend
time reaching to those underneath things.
I, I thought a bit about how, uh, Tim
Keller wrote, um, "Making Sense of
God" a little while after writing "The
Reason for God" 'cause he realized that
people were kinda getting further and
further away from the God question,
and so they needed more groundwork
to be laid for them to actually
understand the reason for God argument.
And I feel like I see this resourceâ¦
I mean, it's risky to
compare myself to Keller.
I'm not, not saying I'm anything like him.
Um, but that, that principle was
really present in my mind of actually
we need to work really hard to
lay the deeper groundwork first.
Um, and people really need that.
People are quite familiar, say, with some
of the biblical ethical practices, um, and
they feel like Christianity is oppressive
because of those things, but they're not
very familiar with the deeper groundwork
that's in, that sits underneath it, and so
I really wanted this resource to do that.
And so I work really hard in the
structure of the resource to spend
most of it laying the groundwork before
I even touch any ethical practice.
And so I spend a really long time
giving people a framework to work from,
helping the Bible story make sense to
them, and only once I've established
that do we start to talk about practical
implications for sexuality and gender.
ZOOM0045_Tr1: Mm, yeah, yeah.
And so just to kind of, um, just to
recap what you said there, , with
your frustration of all the, the
conversations being so about just the
practicalities or the, the actions, um,
you wanted, you wanted to give people
a sense of, uh, okay, well, what is the
theological, the pastoral groundwork for
us to have, , have a discussion where
actually the biblical and faithful,
, responses to gender and sexuality that,
that, you know, like emerge from the
gospel- , makes sense in the light of
all the groundwork that's been done.
ZOOM0045_Tr3: Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's right.
And I guess, like in the resource, I
kind of use myself as a bit of a, like
the worked example of these things.
So we work through these truths,
and in the last section I kind of
weave in a bunch of my own story
to kind of say how these truths are
good and how I've learned to see the
goodness of them, even in my position
as a same-sex attracted Christian.
And so kind of bringing in that
personal dimension at that point,
I think is a helpful time to start
Bringing that in so people can kind
of envision what it might look like,
um, i- in the practical realities.
ZOOM0045_Tr1: Yeah, absolutely, to be
able to see how it's gonna play out.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
That's, that's really helpful.
Um, now, um, we're gonna walk through
the structure a little bit- Mm ⦠in,
in a moment, and not, not just so that
people know what's in there- Yeah ⦠but
also because y- you've kind of, you've,
as you've just explained, you've,
you've put it together in a, in a, a
thoughtful- Yeah ⦠you know, there's
a philosophy behind why you did it- Yeah
which I think will be helpful for, you
know, youth and kids ministers as they
think, think about the issue itself.
ZOOM0045_Tr3: Mm.
ZOOM0045_Tr1: But I'm also
interested, before we get there, um,
uh, why did you address gender and
sexuality?
And, you know, how did youâ¦
Because I, as I think about
them, I, I know that as we
discuss them in society- Yeah
it's, it's, it's talked
about as if it's one thing.
Yeah.
But actually, when you sort of dig
down a little bit, they, they, they're
quite different- Yeah ⦠in some ways.
Yeah.
Why did you talk about both-
Yeah ⦠and how did you go about that?
ZOOM0045_Tr3: Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, I, I think both are, are
a really important part of this
rubber hitting the road, pointy
part of us clashing with culture.
Um, and I think, you know, sexuality
has been for a really long time,
and, and, uh, the way we discuss
gender is much more, um, present and
immediate i- in the culture, I think.
Um, and so I think dealing, working
through both of those topics will be
really important, and I think both
of the topics really come back to
what we think it means to be human.
You know, what does the
good life look like?
What does it mean to be a person?
Um, and so I think w- while both of those
topics can be quite different, um, a-
and shouldn't just be lumped together all
the time, I think they do both, they both
really are quite present examples of the
way that the underlying worldview that
we have impacts the way we live and what
we think is good, what we think it means
to be human will impact the way we act.
Um, and so in sexuality and in gender,
um, and the way we talk and think and
live out those spaces, uh, I think they,
uh, are a real strong outworking, um,
of our worldview, and, and you can see
that really clearly once you start to
take a step back and have a look at it.
Um, and so I think, uh, these are
just the two really big issues in
youth ministry particularly, um, uh,
and so I, I think any resource on
these topics needed to address both.
Um, I, I felt more comfortable
coming from the sexuality side
to talk about those things.
I mean, gender hasn't been uncomplicated
for me, but, um, you know, not in quite
the same way that it is for other people,
and so I did work really hard in trying
to get a little bit more up to scratch
in thinking about gender, um, and, and
gender ideologies a- and a Christian
perspective of gender 'cause I really
wanted this resource to deal with that
topic well as well, and be thoughtful
in a way that I would want someone to
be thoughtful in talking about sexuality
in the way that it was personal to me.
ZOOM0045_Tr1: Yeah.
And I mean, i- in some ways, the,
the, like, going back to Toby's quote,
certainly one of the through lines
there is the oppression question.
Like if, if I, if I'm going to, have a,
a faithful understanding of gender and
sexuality, does that mean I will need
to either hate myself or hate- Yeah
or hate my, my friend who's
gay- Yeah ⦠or is- Yeah ⦠is
transgender or that kind of thing?
ZOOM0045_Tr3: Yeah, we often
think about it in that binary, and
that's, um, it's really sad that we
feel like we're in that position.
Um, and I really wanted to
open up space to show the way
that it, it was not, um- Yeah
and doesn't need to be.
ZOOM0045_Tr1: It doesn't need to be.
The go- the gospel's true and
good- Yeah ⦠at the same time.
Um, all right.
Well, why don't you walk us
through the structure of it?
Yeah.
How did you put it together?
ZOOM0045_Tr3: Yeah, I really
wanted the structure of it
to kind of have a pedagogical
function even in and of itself.
Uh, like the structure of the resource
to actually help youth learn a way
of thinking and approaching topics
that might help them to go off
and think about something else, a-
and not just sexuality and gender.
Um, and so e- each week has
the same kinda structure.
I work through the same sort of narrative.
Um, you know, I start thinking about
what's the, what's the cultural worldly
narrative that we encounter around
this area, um, and then I start to
work through what are the ways that
sin might be impacting the way we think
about that, so start to bring in the,
the biblical narrative there and think
about the ways that sin really muddies
the waters and, and adds some problems.
Um, and then once I've kind of established
those things, of the worldly narratives,
the things that might be true, the things
that might be unhelpful, the way that
sin impacts it, um, I then come into
God's better story, so start thinking
about, um, you know, um, we start at
Genesis most weeks and think about how
God established everything and how he made
everything and the implications from that.
But then really importantly, um, it
applies into Jesus, so takes those things
that we learn about God's story across
the whole Bible and then takes Jesus as
the example of what it means to be human.
He's, he's the only human we have
who has lived a perfect sinless
life, who kinda lived in the way
that God intended humans to live.
Um, and so as well as being our salvation,
he's also the pattern that we follow.
He's, he's the new Adam that Paul
says, a- and so he is the one that
we should look to to understand what
it means to be human, and so that's
a real central part of this argument.
So kinda taking us through the, the
cultural narratives, the way sin impacts,
talking about what the Bible says,
and then showing us how Jesus shows us
all this in the best way, and then at
the end, working through, well, what
are the implications, particularly
here for sexuality and gender?
So we take those truths we've thought
about across those topics and then apply
it to this area in sexuality and gender.
And so across the five weeks, we just
sort of work through that structure,
thinking about kind of what I've come to
think is sort of the, the five tent poles
of thinking about us as human beings,
um, starting with we're made by God.
What does it mean to be made by God?
How does that imply, i- impact things?
The culture says we're self-made, but
actually the Bible tells us someone
has made us, and that sort of thing.
And then thinking about how we're
made for relationships and the way
that our relational gearing as humans
reflects God's, uh, relational nature.
Um, and so it's an important part that
we have to factor in, in understanding
ourselves, how we're made embodied.
Something that's often, I think,
neglected in, in our worldly
discourse, particularly, I think,
um, that it is really a, a struggle
that people have to think about what
it means to be an embodied person.
We're very confused about that.
ZOOM0045_Tr1: that's partly
because, because of that sort
of desire being the- Yeah
the central driving- That's
right ⦠kind of ethical
ZOOM0045_Tr3: Yeah.
Yeah, that internalized way of
thinking really discards the body.
Um, and so we think through that.
And then we think about, um, the way
that we're made to grow over time.
God has not made us as static
humans, um, but actually made us
as people who will live a life,
and we change and grow over time.
And I think culturally,
we, we forget that.
We think about the true you.
You know, if you think about going to find
yourself, the idea of who you are is like
a, an objective truth that's out there.
Um, whereas actually the, the biblical
picture that paints is God has made us
as contingent on our relationships and
our time and, uh, and our embodiedness,
and all of that will change and
shape us as we grow over time.
And so I think that's, that's
a particularly important idea
that I think is quite neglected.
Um, when people have gone through it, they
often have said that that's been the part
that's really changed the way they think.
Um, to, to actually think there's not
a true you out there to find because
God's made us as developmental beings
who will grow and change over time.
Um, and only God sees who
we are in a complete way.
Um, and then the final chapter
is we are made for Christ.
So that kind of just lands
everything in the purpose question.
So, you know, we've talked about what it
means to be human, but then we'll talk
about what the purpose is of humanity
and, and that's bringing glory to Christ,
being united with him, um, and the
way that that kind of ties everything
together, um, as, as a foundational
truth that gives us purpose as humans.
So that's, that's the shape of
the resource over five weeks.
ZOOM0045_Tr1: So over one week
you're looking at, you know, culture-
Yeah ⦠the impact of sin, God's
better story, and particularly how, how,
like how that lands in who Jesus is.
Yeah.
But over the course of, is it five weeks?
Yeah, yeah.
Over the course, course of five
weeks, you're looking at y- we're
made by God, and we're made for
relationships, we're made embodied.
Um, we, we grow as part of, you
know, like we're, we're on a
journey of transformation, um,
and then we're made for Christ.
Yeah.
Have I got, have I got that right?
ZOOM0045_Tr3: yeah, that's exactly right.
Yeah.
ZOOM0045_Tr1: Um, I mean, I mean, just
as I listen to that, it strikes me
that, um, y- you know, like it's a,
it's a theologically rich and genuinely
thoughtful kind of approach to things.
You've got, you know, for the
nerds out there, you've got, um,
you've got doctrine of creation.
You've got doctrine of atonement.
You've got, you know, the,
the person and work of Christ.
Yeah.
Um, you've got, uh,
what else have you got?
Um,
ZOOM0045_Tr3: Doctrine of
ZOOM0045_Tr1: Yeah, doctrine of humanity.
Yeah.
Um, you've got all,
all, all these concepts.
Yeah.
So this is a theological
resource- Yeah, yeah ⦠but
it's packaged in a way that isâ¦
And the pres- presentation of it is
beautiful, but- Yeah ⦠it's, it's, it's,
um, it's packaged in a way that is, um,
seeking to stir teenagers to think- Yeah
⦠deeply about- Yeah, that's right ⦠these
ZOOM0045_Tr3: Yeah.
I didn't wanna talk down to them.
I wanted to go, "This
is, this is important.
It's worth engaging
with at a deeper level."
Yeah.
Um, so I've just worked hard to make it as
approachable as possible without dumbing
down any of those topics, 'cause I think
we need that richness to engage with.
Yeah.
ZOOM0045_Tr1: And I mean, how do you,
ZOOM0045_Tr3: look, howâ¦
I mean,
ZOOM0045_Tr1: but how do you- How do
you envisage this being used- Yeah
in a, in a, like a youth ministry setting?
ZOOM0045_Tr3: Yeah.
So I've really envisioned it as like
a, a Friday night youth group, you
use these talks instead of the talks,
ZOOM0045_Tr1: Or if you're in
America, maybe a Wednesday night.
ZOOM0045_Tr3: Oh, so true.
Yeah.
W- whenever you have your kind
of big gathering all together.
Yeah.
Um, and so, uh, uh, so there's kind
of the videos that go between 18 and
20 minutes, um, but they're all split
up into those three sections that we
talked about, that repeated structure
of the world story, God's better story,
and, and living that better story.
And so they're kind of, you know,
you're never having six m- more
than six minutes of a video at once.
Um, so there's, it's broken up
into those three sections that have
discussion breaks at the end of each one.
ZOOM0045_Tr1: So the video pauses-
Yeah ⦠and it's like, okay, go
ZOOM0045_Tr3: Have a look
at your discussion guide.
So I, I've produced a discussion guide
that goes along with it, um, that
you can use just to give people a, a
moment to process, 'cause I recognize
there's a lot to process in there.
Um, and so each week is kind of split
into those three sections, and there's
a, either the more, um, full Bible study
that you then do at the end as well, so
it, it kinda combines your, your talk
time and the discussion time all together,
um, uh, into that, that one unit.
So there's, there's time for people
to watch the videos, to have a break
to discuss with each other the kinda
things they're engaging with, um,
and then to spend some time at the
end actually digging into God's Word
on that particular topic and, and
thinking about it a little bit more.
'Cause I really want there to be lots of
space for questions and, and engagement,
and really encourage questions,
um, and discussion as part of it.
So, uh, that's the vision.
It would go for maybe five weeks
across that, um, and you can work
through, uh, each topic over a
week, um, and with the discussion
questions and Bible study with it.
ZOOM0045_Tr1: And do, do you envisage that
this, like the, the audience for this,
would you expect a non-Christian and a
Christian to be able to engage with this?
ZOOM0045_Tr3: Yeah.
I've, I've tried really hard to
write it, I, I think assuming
some Christian feel, familiarity.
If I'm writing it for a youth group,
they've obviously had some exposure to
Christianity, so I'm not thinking about it
as primarily like a evangelistic resource.
Yeah.
Um, but I have envisioned it as
something that will help people
understand more deeply the gospel, and
so I'm assuming there'll be different
levels of familiarity with the Bible
in there and with all sorts of things.
Um, and so it's definitely written
assuming that, uh, your youth group is
made up with a mix of familiarity, and
also assuming that there are people in
this youth group that these things are,
are personal and immediate to them.
You know, I really wanted it to be,
if someone was coming from that youth
group who's, uh, you know, openly
gay and talking about these things
and just starting to investigate
Christianity, I wanted this to be
something they could engage with
without putting them off a- as well.
Um, so it's definitely written to be
explored within the context of, of
someone being in church and having
some familiarity with Christianity, but
I've really tried hard to make it, um,
approachable to, to everyone to engage
ZOOM0045_Tr1: Yeah.
, Just r- leaving aside the resource
for the moment, like you obviously,
you wrote this resource for a reason-
Yeah ⦠um, but it forms a larger
part of the ministry of, um, of, you
know, to, to and with young people-
ZOOM0045_Tr3: Yeah
ZOOM0045_Tr1: um, as a resource
that's able to be utilized.
Yeah.
Um, with, with your motivation for
this resour- r- resource in mind-
Mm-hmm ⦠what do you hope for, for
youth, uh, youth ministry particularly?
Yeah.
Um,
ZOOM0045_Tr3: know,
ZOOM0045_Tr1: you know, uh, l- if,
if you could snap your fingers and-
Yeah ⦠and, you know, youth ministry
was as, as it, as you wanted it to be-
ZOOM0045_Tr3: Yeah,
that is a big question.
I, I mean, I think, I think a lot of
the motivations under the resource
is I, I really want youth ministry
and, and our youth ministry spaces to
be a place where people can honestly
and vulnerably explore what it
means to be faithful to Jesus in the
complexities of their own circumstances.
I want, I want it to be a place where
people can talk about what that looks like
for them and, and not feel worried that if
they say, "Oh, it's really difficult for
me in this area," that people will look at
them and go, "Oh, that's, that's crazy."
Um, you know, I, I really want this,
uh, this resource and the way we
talk about particularly these topics,
because I think these topics handled
badly can put people off youth group,
can, can put people off the church.
Um, and so I really want our youth groups
to be a space where we aren't anxious when
we engage in these topics, because we're
confident that the Bible is true and good.
And so being able to anxious, uh,
non-anxiously approach these topics will
just help us to be more thoughtful, more
curious about other perspectives because
we're coming from a place of security.
And so I want, I want people to have
a real security in the goodness and
the truth of the gospel, um, and be
able to then engage with other ideas
in a way that is not worried that
engaging with those ideas is gonna take
away their confidence in the gospel,
but actually will only grow them.
And so I think that's what I've aimed
for in this youth resource, and that,
that's what I'd love to see in our,
in our youth groups, that, that place
to be a place where you can honestly
and vulnerably wrestle with what it
looks like to be faithful to Jesus.
'Cause that does look a little bit
different for everyone, um, and
that's part of the beauty of the body
of Christ, is it does look a little
bit different for everyone, and so
everyone brings something unique to
the table that can encourage others.
Um, so if that, if this resource
helps in one little way to help people
think, "Oh, I'm not alone in it being
complex for me to follow Jesus, and
here's a place where I can explore that
complexity," I'd, I'd be pretty stoked.
ZOOM0045_Tr1: Love it.
Um, that's what, that's
what I'm praying for.
Yeah.
Um, that's fantastic.
Um, great job on the resource.
Um, if people wanna, um, access
that resource, they can go to-
ZOOM0045_Tr3: Yeah, thestoryofus.org.au.
You can find that there.
There's the website.
You can also find it through Living
Faith, who I work for and who I made it
through, so that's livingfaith.online.
We're also on Instagram
ZOOM0045_Tr1: Yeah.
Awesome.
Well, thanks so much, Simon.
Um, it's been a really helpful discussion.
ZOOM0045_Tr3: Thanks for having me on