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Exploring how humans connect and get stuff done together, with Dan Hammond and Pia Lee from Squadify.
We need groups of humans to help navigate the world of opportunities and challenges, but we don't always work together effectively. This podcast tackles questions such as "What makes a rockstar team?" "How can we work from anywhere?" "What part does connection play in today's world?"
You'll also hear the thoughts and views of those who are running and leading teams across the world.
Pia 00:00:00 So this is an extremely exciting day, and our podcast is beaming straight in from New York City and the three of us, and I'll introduce Brooke in a second, are in a luxury studio recording this. No, we're not, we're out. We're we're around the kitchen table, huddled around the mic. But this is a really special episode because the three of us are actually in situ. And we are joined today by Brooke Lewis, one of our esteemed squad coaches, and delighted to have you join us. Hi, Brooke. Hi, Pia. Hi, Dan. Thanks very much for having me.
Dan 00:00:40 My pleasure. Great to have you here. Yeah.
Pia 00:00:42 Nice to be in person.
Dan 00:00:43 It is Utah.
Brooke 00:00:44 I am Park City, Utah. Perfect. Despite the accent.
Pia 00:00:47 Yeah, the Aussie accent does give it away. And you and I met. Oh, gosh. I think it must be eight years ago when you were working for CSIRO. I believe that, and you were my client. I have a few of those, actually, that.
Dan 00:00:59 They can't shake you off. They can't shake me off. No, no, no.
Pia 00:01:02 Like a bad virus. I just.
Dan 00:01:03 Keep hanging.
Brooke 00:01:04 Here. That keeps on giving.
Dan 00:01:05 But yeah, like a virus. Like a virus.
Pia 00:01:10 So anyway, before we get stuck into our topic today, Dan is going to ask you a curly question.
Dan 00:01:16 And this is a good one. This is a new one. What are you learning at the moment? There's nothing to do with work or your profession.
Brooke 00:01:22 I am living in Park City, Utah, which for those who don't know, it is basically mountains. So snow in winter and I have teen boys, so I am learning to ski more aggressively to basically be able to ski with them as a kid growing up.
Pia 00:01:38 That doesn't mean you shout when you actually get angry.
Dan 00:01:42 Be well, damn.
Pia 00:01:44 Here's another mogul.
Brooke 00:01:45 A little bit of that. Yeah, no, but trying to make sure that I can both stay fit and keep pace to ski with them as they get older, because they're both very much into the skiing as a hobby.
Brooke 00:01:56 So I want to be able to stay with them and family time.
Dan 00:01:59 So are you having lessons to do? I had.
Brooke 00:02:01 Lessons a few years ago, so it's now about just kind.
Dan 00:02:03 Of.
Pia 00:02:04 A confidence thing as well as it is. I mean, the kids just have to be confident, whereas the older we get wanes.
Brooke 00:02:11 I think every run I look at is so it's a double black and they just drop in unfazed. Launch with air. Yeah. And I look at it and think, okay, I guess I'm doing this. Just go.
Dan 00:02:21 Teeter off the edge.
Brooke 00:02:23 And then kind of follow and hope that nothing goes bad.
Dan 00:02:26 Sorry. So give our listener a quick tip if they want to ski more aggressively, mindset or skill set.
Brooke 00:02:32 It's actually leaning down the hill so your shins on the fronts of the boots and lean down the hill. If you lean back, you're not under control.
Dan 00:02:39 That's all you need to do. That's all you need. It don't make. I can imagine myself doing that.
Dan 00:02:43 That's very good.
Pia 00:02:44 I'll post a video of the end.
Dan 00:02:47 So you've told us where you live now? How did you get there? To give us a little bio in a box with.
Brooke 00:02:52 A bio in a box. So Sydney born, Melbourne raised and we have been in Park City for about five years. Grew up in Melbourne or in the Melbourne surrounds, and then my husband had some work opportunities here in the US. So here we are and we're enjoying it. It's a very outdoors lifestyle which feels really good for boys. Yeah, yeah, they've got multiple sports all year round, so that feels like a really good mix for them right now.
Dan 00:03:18 I don't want to step over any boundaries here, but when I think about Utah, I think Mormon talk to me about life in Utah.
Brooke 00:03:24 Yes, they exist. They are around. I think those that are not part of the US, that feels like a very unusual part of the system. But I know people that are Mormon and they're very friendly and they're very lovely.
Brooke 00:03:36 And just like any kind of religion, they're just very strong in their beliefs and their faith.
Dan 00:03:40 Yeah, fantastic.
Brooke 00:03:41 We do have different liquor laws, though, in Utah.
Pia 00:03:43 Oh, what are they? So, you know, no laws. No.
Brooke 00:03:46 You can get it. But elsewhere in the US, if you went to a grocery store, you can buy wine and a range of liquor. But in Utah you can only buy beer that is under 5%. Oh, yeah. But then the market adjusts. There's quite the range of under 5%. Beers.
Pia 00:04:02 Craft beers? Yeah.
Dan 00:04:03 Yeah. Interesting. Back to Middle Ages. Small with small beer.
Pia 00:04:06 Yeah.
Dan 00:04:07 Good. Very good. Yeah. Excellent. So, Brooke, what are you here to talk to us about?
Brooke 00:04:11 I am here. I've got an interesting observation, which is really about organizations focusing on fixing the people as opposed to looking at the system.
Pia 00:04:21 Yeah.
Dan 00:04:21 Oh, okay.
Pia 00:04:23 That one in.
Dan 00:04:24 That's a goodie. I think I definitely rings a bell.
Dan 00:04:27 Talk to us about what you've seen.
Brooke 00:04:29 Both seen and experienced. Yeah, I would say I do feel like it's a bit of a mess that performance problems are people problems. So the way in which I think about that is really that if someone's underperforming, we typically look at we coach them. If a team is stuck, we run a workshop to kind of unlock it. If execution is slow, we kind of reconfirm roles. But if I think about an analogy, if you're a runner, you're not always just focused on run harder, run faster. You look at the system, so is the track. This is the running track in good condition. Do you have the right shoes, etc.? I think in corporate land we very much focus on the individuals. But if we look in other ways of life, you look at what are the parts of the system that might not be creating the optimal conditions.
Pia 00:05:14 I think it's such an interesting point because then what happens is, is that we've got all these and we do I think we have a fixation on individuals.
Pia 00:05:21 I think that got amplified post-Covid. And we've talked about that before, and then we've got this fixation on the organization. And then the tenuous link is the old engagement survey between the two.
Dan 00:05:33 Yeah.
Pia 00:05:33 You know, that's the way for the organization to check that people are happy. And that's the way that people to actually voice that they're not happy generally. Which sort of again, misses the point, because you're missing all the key enablers that could support people to be successful. So you've got a background in OD. So what are you seeing in terms of like some of the fundamental elements that create for people to be successful.
Brooke 00:05:58 I'm almost thinking about three layers, and one of my old teams would joke because when I'm scribbling or kind of making these observations in organizations I was always known for, like I was always drawing circles, so they would laugh in the fact that I'm still talking about circles and.
Dan 00:06:14 Layers and.
Pia 00:06:15 Just change.
Brooke 00:06:15 But no. Exactly. But really, I think about it in terms of the system, the team and then the individual.
Brooke 00:06:21 And sometimes there are cases where it is an individual that is part of the performance issue. But often we jump to that first rather than looking at what's in the system, what's in the team and then what's in the and the self.
Pia 00:06:32 And at the system level. Let's start out from that. You're looking at the organization. You're looking at the constructs of the culture. What else are you looking at? How does that influence behavior.
Brooke 00:06:42 At a system level? I think about the elements that are what I would describe as invisible architecture. So things like clarity around strategy and not just keywords, but actually strategy at a the double click down and then double click down again I think about what are the decision rights, how are the roles defined, what are the operating rhythms, especially in the hybrid? So many hybrid working environments now and lots of cross-functional teams and things like that. It's not the traditional. I don't know that we've always moved organizational systems to move away from traditional organizational hierarchies, which we don't really operate in anymore.
Brooke 00:07:18 So they're the kind of things that come to my mind in terms of the system, all those parts. Does it feel frictionless or does it feel effortful?
Pia 00:07:28 Are you swimming against it or with it? And I often think that, you know, how many people are listening to this podcast that was sold soul Down the River on their interview? Right. And that's another part. So they don't really get an opportunity to see into that system. Or they got told a story that fitted the type of person that that organization wanted to hire. Yeah. And so you told her the good stuff.
Brooke 00:07:52 Yeah. And so if you think about it, just a system level. So like, how many people do we have? We have brilliant people sitting in a room and they're having the same conversation three times because decision rights aren't clear. Or they're talking to the wrong people because roles aren't clear.
Dan 00:08:07 And yet they're being blamed effectively for being slow.
Brooke 00:08:11 Yeah. Because like why is this not moving.
Dan 00:08:12 It's a systemic thing.
Dan 00:08:14 Yeah. It just really reminds me of that sort of. In fact, I heard it this week. That's a coaching moment where someone says, oh, this person on my team isn't performing well, even at a more simple basis. They've got this behavior that's not appropriate. And the first question a coach will ask is, are they clear on that behavior? That's either a leadership thing in sort of a team level or I can see a systemic thing. They're doing things that aren't on strategy. Well, is the strategy clear? Whatever. So it's classic that we do pin things on people isn't it. Yeah. But a simple question will reveal the role of that broader system.
Brooke 00:08:44 And then even to think about it from a slightly different perspective. So we pin it to people. But then if it's not working, then it also becomes the leader's role to become, well, the leaders become the glue that is fixing all these missing parts. And so they're working harder.
Dan 00:08:59 Covering for people.
Brooke 00:09:01 Right. Compensating with efforts.
Dan 00:09:02 Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Okay. Interesting. Sort of. Yeah. Diving catches.
Pia 00:09:07 Sometimes the organization is so complex and matrix driven. Organizations full of acronyms, you're struggling to find the fastest way to the toilet in the building if you're in there. But, you know, but at the same time, you're trying to work out this labyrinth of complexity. Yeah. And you really do have to think, gosh, why do organizations do that? And sometimes they tie themselves up in knots and it doesn't said anyone up actually for success.
Dan 00:09:31 And I always think of the matrix that we it could work with high trust, but we actually try to command and control the matrix don't we. Yeah, we've got a matrix. But we're going to have solid lines that they go. So you could let that go if you'd allow people more autonomy. But but yeah anyway that's more system stuff that can go wrong for people. It's really hard to operate in a matrix.
Brooke 00:09:50 Yeah, I think just on the system level, I think about when the system lacks clarity, then people compensate with effort and then that effort without clarity leads to burnout.
Brooke 00:10:00 So we'll yeah, we'll spend.
Dan 00:10:02 A lot of that actually. Yeah. Very interesting. Yeah. I was just thinking that I've seen this this week again, that you talk to people about something they can do to help them to deliver more, but they're too full to even think about a new way of doing things. And it's that it's that burnout thing.
Pia 00:10:17 Yeah. So they work around the system. Yeah. You survive a certain tenure, and then you get to know people and then you get to work with the system, but you're not really improving the system because people still have to come into that system. And some are thinking straight away because it's not enabling them. And it used to be a bit of a badge of honor. That was you survive in the corporate, and I think we should be a little bit smarter than that. Now, we don't need to do that to test people out.
Dan 00:10:40 No.
Brooke 00:10:41 Well, an interesting way to look at it is people who've had tenure at an organization and they leave after six, seven, eight, 12, 15 years or something.
Brooke 00:10:50 And then they go into a new organization. They've been recruited and hired and put in there because they're smart, they're brilliant, they're clever, and they're capable and they've got good experiences, but then they don't thrive and do well when actually their experiences match up with what the organization is saying that they need. But is that because we onboard them as such? And I kind of use inverted quotes there, but we onboard them for the things we think they need to know. But what are the things within the system that mean that they're successful or not?
Dan 00:11:21 So what's missing here? Because you'd imagine, obviously we're experienced enough to know this isn't true. You'd imagine that the senior leaders, it's the system that they fix. That's what they're focusing on. They should know this. Their job is to fix the system. What's missing here? That that's not happening as much as it should do.
Brooke 00:11:38 Oh, it's a good question because I think that we always look at it as a people problem. So things that are working in the team and we identified the team as a collection of individuals.
Brooke 00:11:47 So we look for an individual that is.
Dan 00:11:49 Yeah.
Brooke 00:11:50 Not the right fit.
Dan 00:11:51 Yes.
Brooke 00:11:51 If finances are not working, we look at it from a numbers perspective. So rather than actually an organization has different lenses like this product or this service is not landing, is it a product or a service offering issue or is it a marketing issue? We kind of come at it with almost one lens as opposed to. And so I think that that still that plays out to be the case from a people perspective.
Dan 00:12:12 Yeah. I suppose people just shy away from it's partly complexity, isn't it? Yeah. It's as we've seen.
Brooke 00:12:18 Well, and also if you're going to fix a system problem. So that first layer is the system and then team and then inner. We're only focused on individuals because that's an easier fix. Yeah. Like it's take that out rather than thinking about if I said Dan here's your job. Go and fix the system around us. So is the org structure right. Is the workflow right.
Brooke 00:12:38 Is the ways of operating right. Yeah. That is so much more.
Dan 00:12:41 This is a bit of a hobby horse of mine, but but But hey, I'm going to take it out, trot it around the paddock just once. And in fact, it's funny, I was talking to someone last week about about this at one of our clients where literally if, let's say, sales are down and you are getting grilling from the regional team, your country managers say the classic path. They say it's okay, it's this person, they're a problem. And then the regional people don't say, hold on a second, you're the leader of that. What else is there? Are you really clear on your goals? Have you set up clear decision rights? Have you set up a climate where people can perform? They say, oh, great, it's John or whatever. He's the problem with a bad apple.
Brooke 00:13:20 Yeah, yeah, he's got the lowest numbers.
Dan 00:13:22 Yeah. That's right. Great. Okay. So then you start replacing.
Dan 00:13:25 Of course, you're not fixing the system while you're doing that. You're not fixing the barrel. So I didn't like it. I did steal that from a Ted talk to me. Did you. Yeah. Okay. But for a moment that you thought you actually.
Pia 00:13:35 Sounded quite credible.
Dan 00:13:36 Yeah, exactly. They're not.
Pia 00:13:39 Yeah, it is, and it's. I still think it's a little bit of a sink or swim. It's like an assessment centre. Can you manage the system rather than the system actually looking at itself? Do we enable other people inside this organization to be successful or what do we get in the way? And then we just become obsessed by busyness. So everyone. Finally, when you've kind of made it across the gauntlet, you're into the organization. You've survived. Then you become part of the complexity because you then don't change either because it's it's a sort of sign of, of your credibility that you've survived and thrived.
Dan 00:14:10 Yes, true. Crazy.
Pia 00:14:12 Are you assuming.
Brooke 00:14:13 You assimilate and become part of the system?
Dan 00:14:15 Yeah.
Pia 00:14:16 Institutionalized. I think.
Dan 00:14:17 It's you. Yeah. You're badge of. So what do people what can people do about it?
Brooke 00:14:22 I would invite leaders to really think about before you look at who needs development. What coach do I need to put in place? What development course am I going to put someone on? The real question, I believe, is what in our system is making performance harder than it should be? Because if you fix the system or you look at the elements of the system that are not working as smoothly. They don't have to be fully broken, but if they're not working as smoothly as they could be. You think about decisions. Speed increases, energy returns. Accountability becomes natural instead of forced. High performers thrive instead of compensate. And then the performance scales.
Dan 00:14:58 I'm just thinking about because I was at an offsite, a big conference offsite with a client this week, and now I think about that environment. It was really positive. There was a lot of talk about the system, actually, and I realized hearing you talk about Brooke is there's an assumption, actually the opposite, that these are good people.
Dan 00:15:15 They're skilled people with good intent. Yeah. So if they're struggling, it is the system. And they spend a lot of time talking about the system. Actually, it was really refreshing to see that.
Pia 00:15:25 Talking about it wasn't talking about it being a problem. It was actually talking about what needs.
Dan 00:15:30 To be done. Exactly.
Pia 00:15:32 Yeah, that's a different I mean, that's a different level completely.
Dan 00:15:34 And it wasn't well, I can't do X because of that thing. It was this is a barrier. Can we get through it. Yeah definitely. But yeah, I know, I think about it. There was that assumption that these people are competent, so we've just got to help them. Yeah. Create that environment.
Brooke 00:15:48 So if the bigger question is then if you zoom out is really around, what would we need to shift in the system so that great performance becomes easier not harder.
Dan 00:15:58 Yeah.
Pia 00:15:59 And what do you see as examples of what that might be like. What is it that the like are some of the big rocks that could be shifted?
Brooke 00:16:07 I think often it starts within the team first.
Brooke 00:16:09 And I was having this conversation in the last few weeks with a couple of clients myself, and that was really around. It's a lot of this is the things that are broken outside the system. And in one case, it was an organization. They've just gone through a reorg and they're talking about, you know, the things that haven't shifted. And we're supposed to and the good old days, you know, all of those kind of things. So the question that we're zooming in on for that team is let's start within this team before we try and change the whole system within the team layer. What are the system's ways of working, ways of operating that we want to focus on, that we can design safely within us and then that creates momentum. To then look out, you've got.
Pia 00:16:49 Much more agency having that degree of input at a team level. Yeah, because if you're part of a sort of, you know, 20, 30 or 40,000 organization, you know, you can't influence that, but you can influence the nine, ten, 12 people around you.
Pia 00:17:04 And my observation is, is that complexity fractures people, puts them into silos. And even though they're operating in a team, they feel like an individual in their own separate swim lane. So by actually putting them to task together to solve for the problems inside the team is actually quite empowering. And therefore that's something that you can have an influence over.
Brooke 00:17:26 So it's something simple about like what is our meeting today? And so maybe your team isn't doing all of the meetings, but what are the within the team? How often are you meeting? What is the purpose of meeting. So those meetings become Very purposeful, very aligned to strategy. And then that also then starts to shift the type of conversations from moving away from polite agreement to real debate as an example. So for me, that feels like a really small tangible within our control. Let's start with that first and see how that feels when we do that meeting. It's weekly. Let's check in on that after six weeks.
Dan 00:18:01 People sometimes feel they don't have particularly these set meetings.
Dan 00:18:03 People don't have to feel they've got any control over saying, oh, we have a monthly meeting. Well, why, you know, is that really needed? So then have you seen the teams then they're getting their act together. To appoint a team is a more hefty unit than a person, isn't it? Can the team then go and make a change in the the enterprise of the system level?
Brooke 00:18:22 And that doesn't always have to be. We're kind of like off to see the wizard to change everything, but it is okay. Who in our stakeholders, if we were talking about meetings as an example. So efficient, effective meetings. Who are we meeting with all the time. Why are we meeting with them? Do we have the right people in the room? Are we having the right conversations? Are we getting the right outcomes from it? So again, I'm just using that one example as where you start at a team level and then can start to influence. It starts to get kind of like Spidey legs.
Brooke 00:18:53 Yeah. And kind of branches out.
Dan 00:18:55 I've got I'm smiling because I heard this great phrase this week about meetings. No agenda. No agenda. Oh, you think about that, right? Come on. Yes, I love it. Yeah, it's good, isn't it?
Brooke 00:19:06 That has always been.
Dan 00:19:08 A.
Brooke 00:19:09 Part of mine when I was in corporate. If there's no agenda, clear purpose. And why am I here?
Pia 00:19:15 One of my favorite tricks was to look at the average salary of people around the table and multiply it by the number of people, and then charge per minute how much it was costing per minute. That's a sobering exercise because you are wasting a lot of the company's time.
Dan 00:19:29 So what else have you got on this subject?
Brooke 00:19:31 So that system team, I think we've kind of started to talk about and then I guess then there's just the self. So that inner layer, which is this is actually, in my opinion, where organizations tend to focus most of their energy. And don't get me wrong, individual development, individual focus matters, but it's also the smallest lever or lever.
Brooke 00:19:50 I say lever.
Dan 00:19:50 Because I'll show you.
Brooke 00:19:52 I've stimulated well in the US lever.
Pia 00:19:55 But.
Dan 00:19:55 It's no, it's.
Brooke 00:19:57 Spelled with.
Dan 00:19:57 These. Oh, not even saying.
Brooke 00:19:59 You can't have it. Say it's easy.
Dan 00:20:02 It's going to be hard for you to go back if you go back to Australia.
Pia 00:20:05 And I look at I think about there's a big transformational program we developed for a client back in our older leadership development days, and it had the most transformative effect on people's behavior. But once they walked out of that program, they jumped into a river that would flow into the opposite.
Dan 00:20:26 You go.
Brooke 00:20:26 Back into the system.
Pia 00:20:27 And they could not apply, and people left. It was actually the biggest learning for me in terms.
Dan 00:20:34 Of.
Pia 00:20:34 Beautifully crafted program. But did it achieve the goal of the transformation?
Dan 00:20:40 Exactly.
Pia 00:20:41 The hand on heart not. We had not designed it effectively to do that.
Dan 00:20:46 What two thoughts on that. One is that I went to workshop thing once about with leadership Consultants, and they came up with that similar analogy, which is you get the goldfish out of the bowl, you give me fresh water being healthy, and you put it back in the same dirty water.
Dan 00:20:59 And it actually happened to me when I was in my corporate life. I came back from a coaching program. I was so with a colleague of mine was so fired up. This is amazing. It's exactly what we need. And we presented the CEO and he said, oh, we won't be doing that. We won't know. It was literally cold water. Yeah, yeah. It was extraordinary. Yeah. To this day I sort of think, wow. You know, it was you know, it was three days we flew to foreign country to do it. Extraordinary. Because it didn't fit. Yeah. The amount of money was insane. So yeah, I think that's the.
Brooke 00:21:28 Kind of like.
Dan 00:21:28 You.
Brooke 00:21:28 Say, the image that gets conjured up in my head. You say cold water. I feel like if an individual is the ice cube, and then the system is just even like water straight out of a tap. Yeah. And then you put like.
Dan 00:21:41 So you slowly reassemble, melt.
Dan 00:21:43 Yeah. You assimilate to become part of the water. Yeah, absolutely.
Brooke 00:21:47 I guess the way I think about it is that if the system is unclear and the team design is weak, then developing the individual is like kind of upgrading a car with an engine that doesn't have the right wheels.
Dan 00:21:59 It's a danger that this becomes actually. And the motive for this is it's sort of a macho thing that dealing with the crappy system, fighting through and getting things done and working late, that it's that's what hard work is. Has that changed?
Brooke 00:22:16 Probably ego related.
Dan 00:22:17 That's for sure.
Brooke 00:22:18 Okay, I would think. Yeah. It's like that whole present isn't like present.
Pia 00:22:21 There's another part too, that given all the the intensity of scaremongering on the horizon of AI, I think there's a lot of fear. And I think that drives people to make an impression, to stand out and not to think more holistically of what they're trying to achieve. So I think people have been driven to achieve that more than they realize.
Dan 00:22:39 I definitely think, yeah, a 100% agree. And I've seen busyness being the sort of shield I'm flat out. How are you doing? Busy. It's the first offensive thing. And also it's cyclical because people have so many goals now because they don't want to focus in case all the things they should be doing. So they end up super busy.
Brooke 00:22:56 So I think underneath it, that's kind of I mean back to like ego and protectionism.
Dan 00:23:01 Yeah, that makes sense. So Brooke, if our listeners are thinking of this, what could they do to sort of detect this or do something about it and maybe change their thinking? What's a good starting point?
Brooke 00:23:10 If your question is if you're leading yourself, finding yourself leaning into a part where it's okay, so what is the development for this individual? Yes. What do we need to give this individual? How do we need to fix that then? This is where I say zoom out one level. Zoom out one level. And you know, what do you need to fix to shift the system?
Dan 00:23:29 Yeah.
Brooke 00:23:29 So the great performance does become easier here.
Dan 00:23:32 This is one of your phrases. But widen the lens and sharpened the focus. Yeah, seems to be a good point.
Pia 00:23:37 Otherwise you get sucked in. You know, it's like a rip in Australia forms off the beach and, you know, you think everything's fine and whoosh if you're out there and really you do have to take a wider perspective. That's a sage leader. I think that's got an experience goes, okay, how do I stand back to this? And what do I take from this final question? Media recommendation. What's going to help us through in this or not?
Brooke 00:24:00 My favorite one at the moment is shrinking. So I think it is. Season three is just being released here, at least in the US, probably the same in Australia and elsewhere. I've watched season one, season two and season three. This is one of these series that doesn't happen very often, but I am waiting for each week for that episode to drop. Harrison Ford in it is brilliant.
Brooke 00:24:23 They have really built out the characters in season two. It's just fabulous.
Dan 00:24:27 So give us a quick synopsis.
Brooke 00:24:29 So Harrison Ford is a shrink. So a psychologist psychiatrist, and he's aging as he's aging what he's facing into I think the first season almost had three key characters, but they then realized there was so much depth to them, and they've really built that out. I don't know, I just don't want to give away too much, and I.
Dan 00:24:47 Don't want to.
Brooke 00:24:49 Let you have to watch it.
Pia 00:24:50 Once you're streaming.
Brooke 00:24:51 On Apple TV. Brilliant.
Dan 00:24:52 Yeah. I love the way you're so guarded there.
Brooke 00:24:54 You're obviously you're giving away.
Dan 00:24:57 You're obviously wanting people to experience it themselves. No spoilers, you did.
Brooke 00:25:01 It is witty. You know, it has the elements about age, family dynamics, friend dynamics, health and the humor. It's got me good and I highly recommend it.
Dan 00:25:10 Superb. Superb. Well, thank you so much, Brooke. Thank you for having with us here.
Brooke 00:25:14 And how good to be in person.
Brooke 00:25:16 I'm adding it to the world.
Pia 00:25:18 Like I could touch you there appropriately.
Dan 00:25:21 Obviously, within the corporate setting, within the system. So we were just talking about. Fantastic. So thank you for being on the show.
Brooke 00:25:27 Pleasure. Hope you enjoyed it. Thank you.
Dan 00:25:31 Yeah. As we said to Brooke there, this really comes down to the essence of what leadership is. As we defined it, it's creating the conditions for other people's success. That doesn't just mean telling people what to do and just assessing whether they've done it or not. You know, it's much broader. You have a responsibility to see the system, to build clarity, to build the climate that will allow them to be competent. And while, yes, sometimes people still fall short. I don't know what your reflection is here, but what are you seeing in organizations now of the extent to which people are doing that, holding that leadership responsibility?
Pia 00:26:03 In some of the organizations I'm working with. It's top of the agenda and follows that sort of skill wheel matrix, that high support, high challenge, and that the behaviors are around the rhythms and routines, the way of working, the expectations that all mirror that, rather than letting things slide.
Pia 00:26:24 And then in other organizations, it's tough because it's difficult to prioritize. People feel overwhelmed, and it's forcing individuals into this sort of singular, fragmented, just got to survive. It's that proverbial Australian wave, you know, dipping down underneath it and hoping it will pass over.
Dan 00:26:43 Yes.
Pia 00:26:43 So I'd say it's a bit of a mixed bag, really, and there is a lot of change going on at the moment.
Dan 00:26:48 Yes. It's huge isn't it? And that leads to overwhelm. And I think what we do see is that leaders are struggling to find the bandwidth for leadership now, because there's so much and it's always tempting. You've got a load of things to do. The thing that we really valuable will have the most leverage from your time is to think about how we work together, you know, to think about the system. But inevitably that gets pushed out because we have to deliver today. And also, I do think people do what's expected of them and what's being asked for them is have you delivered that task? Where's that? Where's that? Instead of the person above them in the hierarchy saying, okay, are you creating the right conditions here? So I think there's that sort of task focus.
Dan 00:27:30 It's understandable why people would skip this, I think, but I think any listener would do well to just try to push out some time and just really zoom out and think about the clarity and the climate that's in their environment, so that the people can succeed within it.
Pia 00:27:44 What I am seeing is many more organisations adopt a form of agile, which is a system, and using that as a structured, time bound, prioritized way to support individuals to be successful. And again, I think initially that might be seen as additional work. And another thing to do, but what we're finding is, is that actually individuals and teams are quickly overcoming that and finding it systematic, accountable and an organized way of working.
Dan 00:28:15 Yeah, it's a great way of doing it. Absolutely. It's interesting because it's there can be a little bit of pushback on that until people get into it, partly because that sort of sense of we need to focus on our ways of working. Again, it's not natural. It's not natural. We've seen people actually pushing back on a little bit.
Dan 00:28:32 I think it's really interesting. My other thought that crept into my mind there was this seems like a bit of a random thought, but you remember the Abu Ghraib trials where US military were put on trial for torturing Iraqi prisoners? Ted Zimbardo, a famous and very controversial Stanford prison experiments. He was an expert witness on behalf of the defendants. And while that failed, and while his name is not as glorious as it used to be, his defense was literally this that they pointed the military immediate. Rumsfeld pointed to these bad apples trying to distance themselves, but he said no, they were in a bad barrel, which is sort of the climate, you know. He said, they're in a bad barrel where really the American military was aggressive, and they were told almost not to follow the rules or culturally. And he then said, and that comes down to the they had bad barrel makers. And he actually sort of escalated it right back up to the people who were creating a climate in which those behaviors could happen.
Dan 00:29:29 So. Yeah, well, that's not entirely waterproof because his defense wasn't successful and the prisoner experiment was a bit iffy. But I thought it still is an interesting model. And I think it's from that bad apple. So I like to think when people say bad apples, it does light something up for me. Say, hold on a second. That looks like you're isolating the problem here, whereas actually it could be a system issue. Agree. Always come back to that again. A cheerful way to end the show. Talking about torture. Absolutely wonderful. And that is it for this episode. We are not being supported by Spotify. Spotify helps any team to build engagement and drive performance. You can find show notes where you're listening and at Spotify. And if you've enjoyed the show, please share the love and recommend it to your friends. We won't be. It's produced by Rob Lawrence. Thank you so much for listening. It's goodbye from me and.
Pia 00:30:15 It's goodbye from me.