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Becoming sustainably human at work isn't a small undertaking. It often means letting go of systems and behaviors that don't serve us individually or collectively.
So what do we do? As individuals, as groups of folks, as leaders? How do we carve out space for our humanity while making sure we're not the only ones? How do we thrive in the workplace while not imagining we must be superhuman? How do we cultivate spaces that are generative and healing, creative and extraordinary?
I don't have the answers to those questions. And, to be fair, I don't believe one human can EVER have all the answers to those questions. I'm working through those questions every day.
This podcast curates for you a set of folks with an opinion worth listening to and sharing. So join me as I ask people I admire to share their wisdom with you in accessible doses.
Join me on my quest to become sustainably human at work.
Welcome to What's Leadership?
I'm Liz Wiltsie.
The more I learn about leadership,
the more I'm convinced there's
not a one size fits all solution.
So I am on my own learning journey
and I invite you to join me.
EbonyJanice reminds me that being
open about my journey is important.
Each episode features someone I admire
with actionable insight to share.
So please join me as I
ask what's leadership?
Andrea Glik, LMSW is a psychotherapist,
somatic healer, and sex therapist.
Andrea specializes in treating
trauma and PTSD for women
survivors and queer trans folks.
Utilizing body-based and feminist
therapy practices to help
clients come home to themselves.
Andrea practices on occupied
Lenape territory colonized as
New York city and can also be
found on Instagram @somaticwitch.
Now.
Andrea, tell us what's the biggest
challenge leaders face at work?
Oh, boy.
Well, the first thing that came to mind
when I read your question is the way that
we are still so uncomfortable addressing
systems of oppression in the workplace.
And how restricting it is to
not be able to acknowledge the
privilege or oppressions that
are in the room in the workplace.
I've recently become my own boss and
business owner, which is great, and I have
no employees except for myself and all
in my parts of the many parts of myself.
So it's just me and one of the reasons
why I made that move, even though I
love working collectively so much.
Is that, I had worked in a lot of
different environments since I was 15
years old in which there was so many
power imbalances that were not addressed.
And it's so limiting because you want
to be able to fully express yourself.
And if the environment is not safe
because people have not done the work
to acknowledge their privilege or
their power that they have, whether
it's within capitalism or as a
white person or as a cis person or
a man or, so many different things.
I think that it really does create
an environment in which we don't
feel like we can be our authentic
selves, and especially seeing people
move up who have more privilege.
And that's another way in which we
feel like, okay, we can't really,
like, what can I even do here?
Because I'm not that person.
And so in, in working environments
that I've been in, that there
have been more open discussions
around oppression and privilege.
I do feel like there is more ability
for there to be authentic leadership
in the sense of people who actually
deserve to get the position.
But that means that there has to
be people in power who reflect
more marginalized communities.
And I don't think that there's
any other way to do that work.
Basically.
Yeah.
So with that, that's a
whole lot, whole lot.
With that, if you were going to give folks
a tip to get started, what would it be?
In being a leader?
In being a leader, unlike,
or addressing, yeah.
Addressing privilege
and oppression at work.
Any of it.
Yeah, for the leader part.
I would say figuring out a way
to be your authentic self no
matter what that looks like.
Whether it's like I'm going to have my
side thing and my job that I'm employed
at is not going to be the place where I
fully dedicate and devote my time because
it does not allow me to be fully who I am.
And that can be for a number
of reasons, obviously.
And then for addressing privilege
and oppression in the workplace.
Again, the only place I've worked that I
feel like did a good job of this, there
were working groups, so there were working
groups for white folks to unlearn white
supremacy, that happened every week.
And then there were working groups
for folks of color to support each
other through working alongside
white people, essentially.
And also, the multitude of other
complexities of that life experience.
So I think having that
is really important.
If you're someone out there who's a
manager or is in charge of onboarding
and training, having an unlearning
white supremacy or discussion around
oppression and privilege as being
part of that process, even if it's a
day, it's all so helpful and, yeah.
I think we could talk about this
for hours, but I do feel like, in
my experience, that has been the
largest barrier that I've seen for
myself and for other people as well.
Yeah.
So what concept, book, talk,
program, article has been
the most impactful for you?
Theory, has been the
most impactful for you.
The Polyvagal Theory in Therapy by
Deb Dana is my work sacred texts.
I was doing somatic work for awhile.
Before I found that specific book
and it really felt like, oh, this is
the first book somebody should have
handed me about the nervous system.
And now looking through that lens
at myself, my clients, people on the
street every single moment of every day.
Using that framework is so helpful
and understanding why people have
the reactions that they have or how.
Why I have the reactions that I have, why
my body responds the way that it does.
And it's this, it's this way of being
somatically attuned to yourself.
So essentially the theory is about
learning what your body feels like
and what your thoughts are like
and what takes you to different
places in your nervous system.
Whether it's fight or flight, which
is the more sympathetic response.
Or collapsed and submit, which
is the dorsal vagal response.
Or the safe and connected
grounded zone of ventral vagal.
And so once you kind of become an
expert through this book, and it's for
therapists, but anybody can read it.
And, you become an expert at your
own nervous system, and then you can
really just start to understand why
things feel the way they do or why you
have reactions the way that you do.
It puts into context so
many mental health issues.
In my opinion, where you could be
diagnosed with something that feels
really stigmatizing or really heavy.
Whereas using this framework, there's
a little bit more lightness because
there's hope and there's answers
for how to move out of these states.
Whether it's "depression" which
is that dorsal place or anxiety,
which is that sympathetic place.
So that book has really
transformed my personal life, and
then also my practice as well.
And I really haven't worked with anybody
or met anybody who didn't read it or hear
about it and be like, Oh yeah, I get it.
It's really intuitive for
pretty much everybody.
Even though it's about the nervous system.
So it sounds like it's going to be
sciency, I'm not a science person.
And it really does click with
pretty much everybody right away.
Yeah, I can attest to that.
I, I got it a couple of weeks ago, when I
started, looking at some different folks
on Instagram and they recommended it.
And it is, it is easy
for the non-therapists.
Like I got a little bit worried.
Yeah.
I was going to need a
master's in social work.
Exactly.
Yeah.
It's really for everybody.
For sure.
Well, and is there something
else in relationship to.
Polyvagal theory that sort of
gets, that is an easy breakdown for
folks who maybe have no in to that.
Is there a really quick
way to kind of describe it?
Definitely.
Yeah.
So I also really liked the
polyvagal podcast for this too.
They talk a lot about this
and it's very digestible.
But just as a quick, sort
of summing it all up.
our nervous system has different states
and we move through them depending on
the patterns of our nervous system,
which are formed when we're children.
Are formed and really
significant periods of our life.
And the different states are, as
I said before, at the top of the
Polyvagal Ladder, which is a nice way
to think about it, top of the ladder.
So you're at the top, feeling good is
the Ventral Vagal nerve, and that is this
place of connection and groundedness.
It's how I'm feeling
right now talking to you.
It's how we feel when we're.
In relationship with others,
whether it's with ourselves, nature,
a human and animal, whatever.
And then right below that is
the sympathetic place, which can
be a fight or flight response.
But it can also just be being
really excited about something.
So maybe how you feel before,
you know, public speaking or
seeing someone that you love.
After a long time, your heart's racing,
you're kind of shaking a little bit.
So that can be either a place of a
survival response or of excitement.
And then right below there, at the
bottom of the ladder is the Dorsal Vagal.
And that is the place of the
collapsed and submit, freeze,
play, dead survival response.
But it can also be how you feel
after eating a really, really big
dinner where you're just like, I
literally can't move and I'm so happy.
So these states have kind of like polar,
they have, they have sides to them.
There's complexity to them.
And so people who experience
moving through these states
really quickly can make me feel
like, Oh my, I feel so intensely.
Or like I'm all over the place.
When it's like, no, the pattern
of your nervous system is that you
move through States really quickly.
What are some regulatory practices you
can have in place to repattern your
nervous system to go a little slower?
Or if someone's like, I feel like I
get stuck in dorsal for like a month
where I'm just like really depressed.
I don't want to do anything.
Then there are ways to motivate or get
your nervous system out of that place
into a more sympathetic place, and
then you move through that more active
place into the grounded Ventral Vagal.
So she this really, really neutral.
Very easy to digest, very de-stigmatizing
way of thinking about our mental
health, but it brings in the body where
it's like a lot of mental health just
completely ignores the physical stuff.
If we can look at the DSM and apply
the nervous system to most diagnoses,
again, not all of them, but most of them.
There's a nervous system
response that goes with it.
And we've never talked about
that, in such a large cultural
way that I think we are now.
But it really does help people feel
less like, Oh, there's something
wrong with me, or I have this
diagnosis, or, this is just who I am.
It's where like, Oh, this is just a state
that my nervous system is experiencing.
It really, really does de-stigmatize
a lot of different diagnoses
and feelings that we have.
Well, and that then means that there's
just more ways to deal with it, right?
If it's, if it's a nervous system
state?Then yeah, absolutely.
Do something.
Right.
So what should I have
asked you that I didn't?
Oh, when I had for dinner.
What did you have for dinner?
A dinner cooking is one of the
ways that I show up for my inner
child, and I also regulate to, to
bring back something more serious.
When I get home from work, if I'm able to,
I listen to a podcast and I cook dinner.
And it's extremely regulating and it's
such a nice way cuz it's movement.
If I don't have time to go to a movement
class and, or I'm just really hungry.
Cooking is really the way
that I, I regulate after work.
And I love the New York Times
app cooking out for this reason.
And I cooked Alison
Roman's new pasta recipe.
She's amazing and it's a shallot,
jammy tomatoey anchovy pasta and it's
so delicious and your nervous system
and your body are going to love it.
Perfect.
You're literally the first person
who's ever had a recipe here,
but now I'm absolutely going
to ask people this question.
It's going to be great.
We have songs people like we're going to
have recipes that people regulate with.
It's going to be great.
Yeah.
So you have a free resource
you want to recommend to folks.
Tell us about it.
If you don't want to commit fully to
the Polyvagal Theory in Therapy Book.
There's some really wonderful
worksheets on the author Deb Dana's
website that really help you to
get to know your nervous system.
I would recommend reading either
online or listening to the Polyvagal
Podcast, which is also free resource
to understand a little bit more about
the theory before doing the worksheets,
but the worksheets are a large chunk
of the book, so if you don't want to
commit to the book, you really can't
take a look at the worksheets and do
a lot of them on your own, and they're
incredibly helpful to really getting to
know and befriend your nervous system.
Great.
We love, we love free things.
And then one of the questions that
I like asking people is, what's
something that you're grappling
with in your life, in your practice?
What have you.
Yeah.
It's probably not going to come
as any surprise, but I'm still
finding the balance between working
and growing and resting and taking
care of my body and having fun.
And, I feel like I get really
good at doing one of those things.
My nervous system is really in a pattern.
I'm getting up early and going to yoga,
or it's just like work, work, work, work.
And I get stuck in these patterns where
it's like I'm crushing it in one place and
then other things really fall to the side.
So the thing that I'm working on
is finding the balance between
those components of my life.
And it really does feel like a full
time job to take care of yourself.
And I say that to clients all the time.
It's hard to feed yourself and take
care of your body because it is, it's
actually not meant to be one person.
We're meant to be living in community with
people and sharing those responsibilities.
And so it does feel like
a lot because it is.
So I'm really trying to be patient
with myself as I figure out
what that, what that looks like,
especially being my own boss.
I can be a really mean boss, so I
have to be to be gentle with myself.
Wow.
I think that is pretty universal.
That one right there.
So that's a perfect end.
Thank you so much for being with us.
Thank you so much.
This is wonderful.
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