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A conversation with our teaching team, giving you a deeper look at each week's message.
Welcome to the Afterwards podcast where we sit down each week with our teaching pastors and have a conversation about their weekend message. We'll dig a little deeper into the passage of scripture that they covered and sometimes uncover things that didn't make it into the weekend service. Today, as we launch a new series, I'm here with pastor Noel to talk about his message from second Corinthians 1 verses 1 through 7. Noel, how are you doing? I'm doing great.
Speaker 1:Good. This is exciting. We're doing a podcast.
Speaker 2:It it is. And I wanted to say thank you to you for this idea. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, this isn't technically the first podcast you and I have done together. No. It isn't. We I was I guess on your is it it's not defunct.
Speaker 2:Well, I don't know if it calls it defunct. It's the pause button has been pressed.
Speaker 1:It's not a it's not as a very long sabbatical. Is. That's alright. So but it is really fun. We have talked about this for a while, but I think it would be fun to start for just a minute by talking about why are we doing a podcast?
Speaker 2:What's your thought? Well, initially, it was your idea. So thank you for the idea. I just I gotta give you you gotta have some credit for this, and that's Jason, by the way. He didn't give his name.
Speaker 2:But Jason, had this idea, and I I thought it was great because preaching is foolishness. It really is. There's there's so much foolishness in preaching. It's like 80% of what you study, you never get a chance to share. I mean, if if you're gonna preach at all, you're gonna cut a lot of stuff out.
Speaker 2:And so what we thought it'd be it'd be fun to talk about the stuff that we didn't get a chance to talk about. And a lot of times people will come up to us after a message maybe in the lobby and ask us some of those questions and we get excited because we get to fill in all the color commentary and stuff like that. And so there's just so much that is in each one of these passages. And it's always we're always, like, punching ourselves in the gut that we don't get to say some of the stuff. And so I think that's cool.
Speaker 2:And also just there are people in our church who have been just asking for more. More bible, more teaching, and it's really cool to have an opportunity to actually do it, through this medium.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And I think that this particular series is a great place to start because we are gonna be doing this for 27 weeks. Right? We have a long runway of time that we can sort of unpack these passages. It's not like we have to try to cram things in into a short period of time.
Speaker 1:So the the really cool part about that is because each of the passages of scripture is relatively short. Right? We're not covering an entire book in a in 6 weeks or something like that. It it lends itself to having some of these conversations. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And and that was really exciting. Hopefully, we'll continue to do this if people are listening to it and really enjoy it and want more of that. But, you know, we've we've created a couple of this is one of a couple of different pieces of content that we are creating to go along with the series. We also published a journal that people have picked up, hopefully. If you didn't get one last week, we will have more.
Speaker 1:There are more coming. So that that that's hopefully, you were able to pick one up at church. But if not, don't fret. There are more coming.
Speaker 2:And and if somebody is listening from outside of our viewing area, there's where do they find there's a PDF version of the
Speaker 1:That's true. There is a digital version of the journal that you can download as a PDF, or you can just, you know, use it on your iPad. If you go to rivchurch.com/ cruciformedashjournal, you can download it from there. We'll make sure that there's a link in your little show notes. You can just I always love saying that.
Speaker 1:We'll put a link in the show notes. Hey. See. We get to to do that. To do that, but I'll do it.
Speaker 1:So so but let's talk for a minute before we get into your specific message about this series. You came one day to me and you said, I like this name, cruciformed, which is not a word I've ever really heard before. I don't know if it's actually a word.
Speaker 2:I don't think it is a word.
Speaker 1:Okay. So you get credit for the word.
Speaker 2:Well, I I did search for it online because I wanted to see, has anybody else ever used this as a verb like this? And I found one book. I don't know what it was about. It's probably a Christianity thing. And, like, one person had used it as a series title for a a book of the Bible that was not the one we're covering.
Speaker 2:And I could find it. So this seemed really unusual, but I loved the word.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So now tell us about the word and kind of, like, where the root comes from and then how we're using it for this series.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Well, cruciformed, basically, is really in in a sense an architectural term about a a something that is in the shape of a cross. And so there's a lot of church buildings in in Europe and it's fun to go to some of these church buildings where, like the altar will be upfront in the little tiny part of the cross at the top. Right? And then there's these wings that go off the edge and the auditor and so, like, the the congregation is sitting in 3 sections out from the the center of the cross there.
Speaker 2:And so cruciform is basically just means in the shape of a cross. And what happened is as I was studying through second Corinthians, I just realized that, man, that's what this book is all about. It it, like, it and again, this reminds me of Martin Luther. So Martin Luther used to talk about and there's, like, a famous writing because I can't remember what it was or what writing it is. You'll have to Google it.
Speaker 2:But he talked about the difference between a theology of the cross and a theology of glory. And he says so many of us, we want the theology of glory, which is which is great. That's the glorification. One day, we'll all things will be made new, all of that. But while we are here on earth, it's about a theology of the cross.
Speaker 2:And Luther said that the cross is not only our means of salvation, but it's the way that God continues to work in our lives. And so if that's true, then suffering and affliction, which is the whole point of second Corinthians, are failures when life sucks around us is the actual way that we grow in our faith and are formed into the into the image of Jesus, how he works through us. And so it's really cool. And in fact, Martin Luther goes farther than I would go. He actually says I think he said that God is the, is only found in our suffering.
Speaker 2:And I'm not sure I would go that far, But the idea of suffering and affliction being the means by which we grow and mature and become more Christ like And leaning into that, I got really excited about that, which is why I kind of when I was drawing out where and I cruciform became the verb. I'm like, oh, yeah. We need to live cruciformed life. So that's that's kinda where it all came from.
Speaker 1:No. And I like that. And you one of the pieces I like about it is that you did that we are doing this in conjunction with 2nd Corinthians. And in your in your message this weekend, you talked about how this is a book of the Bible. It's very rich and very deep, but it is very often overlooked.
Speaker 1:Right? And it it's it's you yeah. I think you mentioned that there are not a lot of commentaries just built on this book. There are not a lot of books just written about second Corinthians, and yet this maybe part of the reason of that is that focus on suffering and affliction. I'm curious.
Speaker 1:Like, first of all, why do you think that it is that there's not a lot? And then why did that draw you to doing this book?
Speaker 2:I I'm not sure that I was drawn to it because nobody covers it. But, as as I spent time studying it, reading commentaries, and things like that, I did find that what that commentator said was very true. I think one of the commentators I quoted this weekend said there were fewer commentaries written on second Corinthians than any other book in the Bible, especially any other New Testament book, and I found that to be true. And even the commentaries I did have, the commentary on each verse was scant compared to the rest. And the the only things that I can think of the only reasons I can think of is it's hard.
Speaker 2:It's a difficult book to work your way through. And especially what we're gonna try to do to slog it out over 6 months, we might be crazy in doing this because it would be easier to just kinda hop, skip, and jump your way through it. But there were even some famous preachers that I wanted to see what they had to say about this, and I went and looked and I couldn't find any sermons on this from some famous preachers. Like, I was like, what? Are you kidding me?
Speaker 2:So it it it I think be a, because it's all about suffering. B, it it Paul is awkward in in in second Corinthians. Like like like, totally awkward. Like, people believe it's a bunch of different books kinda jammed into 1 or some other commentary got thrown in from other because the tone shifts. And and I think I mentioned this weekend that it felt like sometimes he went to bed thinking one thing and then woke up in the morning in a better mood or a worse mood, and then it just kept writing.
Speaker 2:There's total shifts like that. They're still very, very Pauline. The other thing is there's a chronology issue where people debate about how many letters there are there were. Some people still think there were only 2. That's a very, very rare breed that says there's 1st in in second Corinthians.
Speaker 2:But there's others that believe that maybe there's, like, 3 and that part of what Paul called his severe letter, the one that was missing between first and second Corinthians was jammed into second Corinthians. That somewhere someone found it through the manuscript in with 2nd Corinthians. It got absorbed in because there is this section that gets a little more severe. But, gosh, I don't think it's that severe. And and I I I can't wait to get to Gloria and read the severe letter because I think it's probably much, much worse.
Speaker 2:But I I think that because there's just some complexities to that and even, like, in in in, like, in a couple weeks, I'm gonna be sharing, later on in in in second Corinthians 1. And as I was reading through that, there were already some interpretive issues. Like, you stop and go, okay. This is a word that's not used very often. And or and and you you kinda stop and you there's a lot of that, and I can't remember what it is.
Speaker 2:I'll I'll mention it in the message in a couple weeks, but there's just things like that. And so it's just difficult, and it's not a fun read. And, Paul even gets passive aggressive, which is kind of fun at one point. So those of us from the Midwest, we're gonna love that. That's in May.
Speaker 2:We'll hit the passive aggressive passage there. But I'm not sure why. But it just in fact, even for me, never dawned on me to do 2nd Corinthians so far.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And I do like that you, during your message, gave a very good plug for the podcast. You told people specifically there were 4 letters, and we'll talk about that on the podcast. So I appreciate you doing that because, hopefully, some of you are listening right now because you wanted to know more. Now you did just mention 3.
Speaker 1:And but in during your message, you mentioned that some people think there was actually 4.
Speaker 2:No. I think there's 4. Okay.
Speaker 1:And that yeah. One of them came before 1st Friday.
Speaker 2:Yeah. That's a good catch. So yeah. So I think that there were 4, that there was one that we don't have and then there's first Corinthians and then there's one that we don't have and then there's second Corinthians. I I noticed that in the journal, I think I wonder if, pastor, James thinks there's 3 the way he wrote it.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Let me just even look. I I gotta go flip back. I gotta go through my journal. See, I've got my journal.
Speaker 2:You can hear my pages flipping. But he says something about that, like, right at the beginning. He says most scholars believe he wrote at least 3 and possibly 4. That told me that I think James thinks 3. So I'm gonna have to ask him.
Speaker 1:That's great. Well, we're gonna get him on the podcast next week, and I'm gonna ask him about that. So we'll say talk about talk about this because he did write this journal, which is a fantastic resource. So I hopefully, even as you're as you're coming to church, you're bringing the the journal with you. If you're listening to this podcast, maybe write some thoughts down that you have.
Speaker 1:And you know what? You can send us. We have an email address. You can send some of those thoughts to us, podcast@rivchurchdot com. We'd love to hear some of those thoughts at based on this conversation.
Speaker 1:But digging into this first seven verses. So one of the things I think is really cool about this series, you know, you know, we're going through a book of the Bible, so we have people who are reading the scripture. And we have people from across all of the venues who will be reading scripture, and you will get to see them at all of the venues because we are using the same scripture readers as part of our title package each week, which I think is cool because you're gonna get to see some faces that are not familiar at all. And this 1st week, the scripture reader was a student, Laura, at the Westside Venue. And as she started to read this passage, I realized, this is a way to start a letter.
Speaker 1:Right? This is a like, he dives right into this concept of affliction. And and and I actually asked Laura who she did a great job. And I said, are there any words in this that you want us to help you with? And the only one she asked about was akaya, and she she nailed it.
Speaker 1:But I said, how do you say this word in affliction? I said, do you know what it means? And and and she kinda, like, was like, please don't ask me to talk about that because that sounds scary. And yet Paul starts his letter talking about suffering and affliction, and he really sets the tone right away. But it it feels like he does it because he has a purpose.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah. I really do.
Speaker 1:And talk about that.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, affliction, I I think, it shows up that that word in in the Greek shows up 9 times in that form and 3 times in the verb form in this book. And and when he he starts out in verse 7, he's really, really kinda clearly putting a shot over the bow, letting them know he's gonna talk about himself and this beef that they have. And so I think what's really happening is so Paul had had said that he was gonna go back and visit in Corinth, and he didn't go back. And we're gonna get into that in a couple weeks. I almost don't wanna spoil the thunder of that.
Speaker 2:But Paul basically had promised to and then he didn't come. And I think the reason he didn't come was for their good. But they ended up getting kinda ticked at him, and they're like, well, you'd you're a promise breaker. Right, dude? And so and there's all these accusations against Paul that just trickle their way through here.
Speaker 2:And so in verse 7, it's like he's saying he's letting them know that that he is suffering and that Timothy is suffering at their hands, which I I I think is something he's kinda like letting them know right away. We're gonna dive in this and talk about the fact that you're causing some suffering in our lives and that we're comforted by Jesus. We're hoping that that comfort overflows to you and then it'll overflow to others. It's a fascinating gospel twist because I think yeah. And so I think he just didn't mince any words.
Speaker 2:He knew exactly why he was writing the letter, and he started with suffering right out of the gate. And then he's gonna talk about his suffering a lot. It's almost painfully autobiographical because he gets in like, you you kinda get into that, like, his his angst kinda and I wonder if that's part of the reason people have a hard time preaching it because, like, hey, this is the word of God, but it's also the apostle Paul. And, like like like, you know, what is descriptive and what is prescriptive? I mean, especially when he starts boasting later on in the book.
Speaker 2:It it's crazy.
Speaker 1:So you I just wanted to clarify because I heard something I felt like was important that wasn't necessarily covering the message. But at the beginning when he's talking about that suffering, he's referring to the fact that, like, his feelings are hurt maybe by the animosity he's getting from the church at Corinth?
Speaker 2:Yes. I think so. And and and I don't think it's explicit in the text in the first 7 verses, and so that's why I didn't get into that over the weekend. But I think what you're gonna see as you track your way through here, he's gonna talk about how much he suffered, how he suffered because of them, how he suffered for them, and how he suffered for the church. And all of those are a picture of what he was sharing in there about the sufferings of Christ.
Speaker 2:And I think that's one of the most important things to catch in this is is I think I talked about the narrow and the broadness of that suffering that all the world suffers. But when we suffer the sufferings of Christ that overflow onto us, that allows us to give comfort in a unique way to anybody who's suffering in any situation. So he's, like, using himself as an example and saying, you guys are part of the problem. It wasn't just Corinth. It was Corinth.
Speaker 2:It was all the church. It was the world. It was he was being he was suffering by anybody, but I think he's getting he's starting to hint that it's it's them, and we're gonna get to that.
Speaker 1:I I like that you talked about passive aggressive already, and so maybe it started pretty early in the letter. He wanted them to know. But I do think that when you when someone opened their book to 2nd Corinthians and they dive into that, it could be a little bit confusing because he uses the word suffer and suffering and endurance and comfort and like, in almost a rhythmic way. And he's he's making a point, and it could be easy to sort of just gloss over that. But I am listening to the message.
Speaker 1:I feel like it's really important to not gloss over it. And you said something I wanna highlight. You talked about how this is a quote. You said, we tend to believe that if our belief system is true, all pain and suffering will go away. And I do think that as a Christian, a lot of times we do we think just that.
Speaker 1:Like, once I give my life to Jesus, he's paid for my sins, and the world will just be great, and eventually we'll get to heaven. Like, that's obviously not entirely accurate, but it is a reflection of the way a lot of people believe. I also think the opposite is true that there is a lot of people who believe that if there is suffering and pain, then maybe my belief system is not true. And I just love to hear a little bit about what you think about sort of that that contrast.
Speaker 2:It's a really interesting question, and here's the reason why. I think that it is universal for us to think that if everybody thought like us and believed the way that we do because we believe that our truth is truth. That if if everyone believed and thought like us, the world would be a better place. There would be no pain. There would be no sorrow.
Speaker 2:All of that would go away. And so who believes that? Democrats believe that. Republicans believe that. The LGBTQ community believes that.
Speaker 2:Christians believe that. Everyone sort of believes if you believed exact if everyone believed like me, everything would be fine. Right? And I think it's a snuck premise that gets into Christianity in particular because we have Jesus saying, I am the way, the truth, the life. What does he say?
Speaker 2:He says, I have come to give you life and life abundantly. And so we look at that and we say, there can't be any pain and sorrow in the midst of a life that is abundant, and that kinda goes back to that theology of the cross. The the idea that it is through suffering, through pain, through affliction, it is what James says in James 1, consider it pure joy when you face trials of many kinds for the testing of your faith develops perseverance. And so I think that that's the main premise. What happens in the Christian faith, and this goes to what you were just saying, is a false theology of, of abundance, a false theology of, what is the word?
Speaker 2:I don't know what to escape. Prosperity. Prosperity. Thank you. That's what
Speaker 1:I keep thinking about whenever I think of the opposite of Paul's message is prosperity gospel.
Speaker 2:Okay. So let's talk about that. So prosperity gospel is the view that if you are perfectly in sync with God's will, if you're at the center of what God has for you in life, if you're really living the way you should be living, you're gonna be prosperous. Right? And so then if pain and suffering does come into your world, you must be doing something wrong.
Speaker 2:I have a a friend who when his dad passed away of cancer, their church basically told him and his family it was because they didn't have enough faith. It was on them that there was pain and suffering and sorrow. And and and that is a damnable lie. It really is. Because the theology of the cross basically says, we are going to have pain and sorrow in this world.
Speaker 2:And Jesus faced all of that and he buttoned it up for eternity, but we're not at that entrance to eternity in a sense yet until all things until death itself is thrown into the lake of fire. Right? And and and so I I think we we do. It's a it's a snuck premise that not only will life be perfect if everyone believes like me, but it's a snuck premise to say, if things are going wrong, my belief system is wrong.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And I feel like that mentality isn't even new. I think about you you said something that I I wanted to sort of highlight. You talked about a series of verses where even Jesus is talking about you're going to suffer. He you you know, it's pretty intense.
Speaker 1:Like like, we don't normally expect to hear someone from the platform preaching the word of God, like, reminding us that this is a thing that's gonna happen. But then you said, suffering is going to be a part of all of our stories. And if we follow Jesus, his sufferings will overflow to us, but suffering will not be the end of the story. And I think about, like, John chapter 11, the story of Lazarus, where the the sisters come to Jesus, and they're like, you know, he's sick. And and and Jesus says back to them, this sickness will not end in death.
Speaker 1:And they thought that that meant he wouldn't let them he wouldn't let Lazarus die. But what he really was saying but that just means the story's not over yet. Exactly. The story won't end with his death. It doesn't mean he wasn't going to die.
Speaker 1:It means now you get to see a miracle. And it and it's and it was for other people's benefit. It wasn't just for Lazarus's benefit, and that's really seems like what Paul is saying here because he keeps if we suffer, it is for your comfort. If we are comforted, it's for your comfort. It's for your benefit that we went through these things.
Speaker 1:Is that is that right?
Speaker 2:Yeah. And I would think that the the Christian worldview is an inside out worldview. The the the kingdom of Jesus is an upside down kingdom. And every it's sort of like everything you expect to be isn't. And and so you think that suffering is gonna be the end.
Speaker 2:It's it's not. You think death is gonna be the end. It it's not. You think that affliction is going to to just lead to more and more affliction when it can lead to comfort. That fact that we get comforted that it's somehow just gonna bandage our soul, but it's actually for the soul of other people.
Speaker 2:So we're comforted and it doesn't end with us. The end of the story is not our comfort either. So suffering is not the end of the story, and comfort is not the end of the story. The end of the story is when our suffering and our comfort overflows to somebody else. Right?
Speaker 2:And so, yeah, I I I think and we have to begin to remember, or at least continue to remember, that that following Jesus means following a radically different worldview than than everybody else around us, and and it's gonna feel backward a lot of the time. And I also wonder
Speaker 1:you said something that just sort of made me think about this that because I can imagine someone's listening to this, and they're thinking about experiences in their life that just feel pretty lousy, and they can think about suffering. And that can be hard to get over. And it almost seems as though you can correct me if I'm wrong, that maybe one of the things Paul is suggesting is that part of the way that we receive that is by giving that to other people. Right? Receive comfort.
Speaker 1:Like, when your suffering feels like it has a purpose, when the the challenges that you're facing in your life have a purpose, but you're able to turn that around to benefit someone else's life. I remember a, a woman who I one of the first times I went on a mission trip who was a recent widow. Right? Like, when and she was probably in her fifties or sixties at the time. So she'd been married for a very long time, became a widow.
Speaker 1:And on that trip, there was a man who had been a widow maybe 2 or 3 years earlier. Right? And I just remember watching them have a conversation that no one else there could have had with her. Right? He was able to understand that suffering in a way.
Speaker 1:And and I don't wanna speak for him, but I can only imagine that maybe not that he would not have rather had his wife back, but that they felt like maybe there's some purpose that I can help this other person be comforted and give some sort of sense of purpose to our own our own lives.
Speaker 2:Well, it's interesting. We have this ministry at Riv called, side by side care. And a lot of our care providers and and it's basically just people who come alongside someone else in their suffering. You know, someone has has pain. They're they're going through a key moment in their life.
Speaker 2:They gotta sort it out. It's it's what Larry Osborne calls a need to know or a need to grow moment. I'm in it right now. I got I got hell get help. A lot of our side by side caregivers were once care receivers, and the process was so good for them that they wanted to turn around and use that.
Speaker 2:And I think there's a little bit of a, it's a feedback loop, that happens there. And what's interesting is I don't think comforting others actually means our comforting is over because a lot of times we end up taking on the sorrow of the other people or we end up facing sorrow and affliction because we're comforting somebody else and it creates more And and this thing doesn't stop. It it right? It that flywheel keeps on spinning. But I do think there's a there's a symbiotic relationship between suffering and comfort that if we are so all about ourselves, it just stops with us.
Speaker 2:But when we start pouring that out to others, it just kinda keeps building and and we create more and more and more comfort flows out from us if we don't let it stop on us.
Speaker 1:So one of the things I have been most looking forward to with this podcast is getting to ask each of the the teachers, what are some of the things that didn't make your message? I I because here's the thing. You even for a pet when you're talking about 7 verses of scripture, that can go in a lot of directions. And I'm just curious as you are studying, is there any any kind of behind the scenes? This is a thing that I just, you know, just couldn't get to, but now you have a chance to sort of talk about it.
Speaker 2:Gosh. I I there's because it this was the first message of a series, there were a lot of areas where I was hesitant to go too far because I know what's coming. And I've done it to myself before where I've given a message and I've really stolen the thunder of a message. I'm gonna give in 3 weeks, and I I should've just waited. And so there's a lot of stuff in and around what Paul really, means by boasting when he kinda gets into boasting and and he's starting to kind of already brag a little bit.
Speaker 2:There's a little bit of that. How suffering is really addressed in the book. I couldn't get there. But I think the the biggest takeaway for me in this letter that I didn't feel like was appropriate to share, and I may not even share later on, but I figured the podcast might be the place.
Speaker 1:This is the insiders.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's I I made a comment this weekend. I don't know if I did it in all the services, but about how a friend of mine once said, if you don't want people to be mad at you and you don't want them to tell everybody about it, don't be a pastor. And, what I think this is kind of going back to one of your earlier questions about why do people avoid this book. As a pastor, the temptation to avoid this book is for me to make it autobiographical instead of having it be an autobiographical for Paul.
Speaker 2:Because I see on the pages of second Corinthians what it means to suffer as a pastor who loves your flock and gets bit by the sheep. And that's one of those things that's like, again, I think this is good podcast material, not necessarily good sermon material. But a lot of times, a friend of mine used to say, people forget that their pastors are people, and there's just a lot that comes at pastors. And as I read the book, I found myself placing myself into Paul's shoes in many different ways. And this 1st week when he already hits the ground running about suffering, I kind of thought, okay.
Speaker 2:I gotta make sure this is not autobiographical about me, and it slipped in a little bit with me quoting my friend. But I do think that the big thing that I learned is just, like, it is sort of a treatise in a sense of to remind people in churches how to treat their pastors. And I know some of you may be upset at me for saying that, publicly since I am a pastor, but I'll take one for the team. I think, pastors don't know how to teach people how to treat them, and I think Paul sort of does that in this book. And so right away at the beginning and and that didn't make it in there, but I felt it the whole time I was writing, you know, as he was talking about this comfort and suffering because I know where he's gonna go.
Speaker 2:And I know he's talking about the hurts that he felt. Mhmm. And and and I think that that so if you're listening to this and don't make it about me. So if you're somebody else, at another church, but tell your pastor something positive. Yeah.
Speaker 2:We'll love them.
Speaker 1:I actually think that's great. And the reason I think that's great is at a church the size of ours with 3 different venues, there are a lot of people who see you all the time who you've never met in person, and then they've never met you talked about the pop up pastor. Yeah. Yeah. And I well, I don't know if that was in the message.
Speaker 1:That was
Speaker 2:the conversation. No. We talked about that earlier today. Someone at the Reo Town venue refers to me as a pop up pastor because we have a screen that pops up out of the ground Right. And then I'm there.
Speaker 2:And then I go back down into my hole.
Speaker 1:Right. And they they that person may never see you in person in real life. You may always just be the papa, but you're it's sort of a television persona. And the same thing is true if someone else was preaching and they're on that screen. But I think that one of the really cool things about this podcast is it does give the the the Riverview family an opportunity to hear from their pastors in a different way.
Speaker 1:Right, as opposed to a rehearsed message where you know you have a time limit and you have to get through it. There's a little bit more room to breathe. So I feel like that's a great thing. I also think there will be fewer people who listen to this, so that's that's fine. But I do think the people who are listening, they wanna I think they probably wanna hear more of that conversational stuff from the pastor, so I think that that's great.
Speaker 1:So the the last thing I was gonna ask you about as we kinda as we kinda wrap this up is, you had you didn't say this in your message, but one of the kind of behind the scene things for people is that we kinda talk about what we want people as they go through a message to to to learn from this message, how we want them to standing by him. And I would love to just or standing for him. Excuse me. I would love to just hear, just as we wrap up, what that means, what people who hear this message, how that should change their life a little bit.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I'm notoriously bad at applications, so it's always good to remind me to do that. I'm like, here's the stuff. Go figure
Speaker 1:it out. Exactly.
Speaker 2:Well, I think that we are living in a cultural moment that is a lot like Corinth. I I referenced that this weekend. Corinth was a hypersexualized culture that had a lot of diverse religious views, diversity of people and thought from absolutely around the world, had a little bit of a party atmosphere, all that sort of thing, and sort of similar to our cultural moment. And one of the ways that we suffer well is we stand for Jesus, and I actually think that's what Paul was getting at. And I hinted at it this week, but I just didn't have time to get into it, that I think his severe letter, that missing letter number 3, was a rebuke, and it was standing for Jesus.
Speaker 2:And he did a lot of that in 1st Corinthians. Like, in 1st Corinthians, he's like, dude, one of you guys in your church is sleeping with your dad's wife. Now figure out who that lady was, either mom or stepmom. But one way or the other, he's like, kick the guy out of the church, will you? And he's like, and you guys are ranking one spiritual gift over another.
Speaker 2:I've had it with you people. Like, the whole tone of first Corinthians is him yelling, and that wasn't his severe letter. 3 was the severe letter. And in each of those, what is he doing? He's standing for what is true.
Speaker 2:He's standing for Jesus. He's standing for the gospel. He's saying the way you're living is not right according to the gospel. You're you're you're missing something huge. And so what I'm hoping is that people will take out of this message and out of this series that in this crazy Corinthian world in which we live, that standing firm for Jesus will necessarily mean suffering, but that Jesus will give us comfort And that that comfort, we will be able to pour out onto others as they're suffering in a myriad of ways, including the consequences of sin of living in a Corinthian culture.
Speaker 2:And so I'm hoping that our people will just stand for Jesus, and that they will suffer well, and that that turns into comfort in our community, which will turn into gospel conversations, and then it just goes and goes and goes from there.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And I think and Paul wasn't saying this for the first time. At the end of the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus, you know, describes 2 different type of people, and the one he calls foolish right? We think of this as, like, the house that gets wiped away with the storm. The person who was foolish was the one who heard these things and then just didn't do them.
Speaker 1:Right?
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 1:That's the difference between the foolish man and the wise man was you you both know what to do. You all know what you're supposed to be doing. You're just it's like, I have 4 children. None of them will listen to this. Sometime they all know what they're supposed to do now while both of us are gone.
Speaker 1:Will they have done it when I get home? I don't know. But we all know, and Paul is reminding the Corinthians, you you know what this means. Now do the thing you know you're supposed to do. Yes.
Speaker 1:Well, no, I am so thankful that we were able to start this podcast and that we were able to kinda unpack the beginning of this series and the beginning of this message. Is there anything else that you think we should know before we wrap? No. I don't. Alright.
Speaker 1:Well, so come back next week at the service, and then we will hope to hear you. One of the cool things is get to hear from different voices throughout this series and different teachers as they bring the message of the different venues. And so we're we're so thankful that you joined us, and we will talk to you again next week.