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What if you could hang out with successful women lawyers, ask them about growing their firms, managing resources like time, team and systems, mastering money issues, and more; then take an insight or two to help you build a wealth-generating law firm? That’s what we do each week on the Wealthy Woman Lawyer podcast. Hosted by Davina Frederick, founder and CEO of Wealthy Woman Lawyer –– every episode is an in-depth look at how to think like a CEO, attract clients who you love to serve (and will pay you on time), and create a profitable, sustainable firm you love. The goal is to give you the information you need to scale your law firm business from 6 to 7 figures in gross annual revenue so you can fully fund, and still have time to enjoy, the lifestyle of your dreams.
Give me a sense since I know you also do career coaching. So you have a lot of people coming to you who are looking for jobs. What kinds of things do you think today's worker is looking for in a job?
Julie:Today's worker in a job, I would say the number one is flexibility, which is what my small law firm clients I often say because I get your budgets are different. I always tell people you can't compete with certain aspects of a larger corporation.
Intro:Welcome to the Wealthy Woman Lawyer podcast. What if you could hang out with successful women lawyers? Ask them about growing their firms, managing resources like time, team, and systems, mastering money issues, and more. Then take an insight or 2 to help you build a wealth generating law firm. Each week, your host, Davina Frederick, takes an in-depth look at how to think like a CEO, attract clients who you love to serve and will pay you on time, and create a profitable, sustainable firm you love.
Intro:Devina is founder and CEO of Wealthy Woman Lawyer, and her goal is to give you the information you need to scale your law firm business from 6 to 7 figures in gross annual revenue so you can fully fund and still have time to enjoy the life style of your dreams. Now here's Devina.
Davina:Hi, everyone, and welcome back to the Wealthy Woman Lawyer podcast. I'm your host, Devina Frederick. And my guest today is Julie Shore, founder and CEO of Career Development Advisors. Career Development Advisors partners with law firms and individuals to focus on strength based career development solutions. Julie is passionate about playing to the strengths and building productive teams that support one another and does so through her retained recruiting, career development, and career coaching services.
Davina:Julie has also served as a guest speaker, facilitator, and moderator for panel discussions in the legal field for 7 plus years on career development, recruiting, and career related topics through Zoom meetings, in person training for small groups, as well as on national stages. She earned her BS in human resource management from King's College in Wilkes Barre and has been a senior certified professional in human resources since 2011, which requires continuing education to recertify every 3 years. In addition, Julie has been a Colby certified consultant since 2016. So please join me in welcoming Julie Shore. So hi, Julie.
Davina:Welcome. It's so good to have you here.
Julie:Hi, Divina. Great to be here. Thanks for having me.
Davina:Excellent. So you have decades of experience in HR. Why don't you tell us a little bit about your sort of journey, through the HR career into career coaching and recruiting?
Julie:Sure. Absolutely. Yep. So I went to college, didn't know what I wanted to be when I grew up, and I took intro to HR management and intro to elementary ed. And pretty quickly by the end of that intro to elementary ed class, I was like, I am not creative.
Julie:So I went into HR and had a bunch of internships. And my first job was actually a networked opportunity, which will be important to our conversation, Divina. I thought I was just going in to ask the VP of HR some questions. Anyway, my first job was as a compensation analyst for a medical malpractice insurance company where I quickly had to learn how to write job descriptions, evaluate jobs for pay. From there, I knew I really wanted to be more of an HR generalist.
Julie:I moved on to, and I'm gonna show my age, Cooper's and Livebrand, which was a big six. Now there's the big four. I was there through the PW merger, so PWC. So then I shifted over to PWC. I'm from Central Pennsylvania, but we then moved to Richmond.
Julie:And I took on some local HR management roles as well as regional roles in leadership working with partners and managers up and down the East Coast. So again, gained that generalist experience in all facets of HR performance management, recruiting everywhere from on campus recruiting at UVA all the way to experienced hires. And basically for the last 21 years then I left corporate America, so to speak, 21 years ago, I've been doing HR consulting, but really more niche now in retained recruiting space, mostly working with smaller businesses and nonprofits, and then also some career coaching work.
Davina:Oh, wonderful. So the reason I wanted to have you on today was to because our audience are made up of women law firm owners. And one of the biggest challenges that solos who are scaling to be larger businesses, $1,000,000 multimillion dollar businesses is they need to hire a team. And it's been a, you know, I heard a stat. There was like 1% unemployment rate in the legal industry.
Davina:And so my clients and and listeners of this podcast are looking for creative ways to recruit and find the right kinds of people. So I'm glad you're here to talk with Saba, because I know you've had some law firm small law firm clients that you've helped. So let's start out with kind of the the basics. Ask to give me a sense since I know you also do career coaching. So you have a lot of people coming to you who are looking for jobs.
Davina:What kinds of things do you think today's worker is looking for in a job?
Julie:Today's worker in a job, I would say the number one is flexibility, which is what my small law firm clients, I often say cause I get your budgets are different. I always tell people you can't compete with certain aspects of a larger corporation. You don't wanna compete with them. But the reality is there is a shortage of really good workers, and the number one thing I hear is flexibility. So the minute a law firm can pivot or at least have an open mind to at least a hybrid arrangement that expands your pool tremendously.
Davina:Okay. So this is work from home kind of flexibility. People want the flexibility to work from home, work in the office.
Julie:So yes. So the hybrid model is maybe a few days in the office, a few days from home, but some sort of flexibility with parameters. So I've also written oodles of employment policies over the years. For small law firms saying, like, look. Where there's a win win, I'm not asking you to sacrifice a business need or, you know, you have to meet your client's needs no matter what facet of the law you're in.
Julie:Right? But Mhmm. Just having an open mind to think about it vastly opens up that pool for you a little bit.
Davina:And do you think that sort of is a differentiator from larger law firms? Because we're not really seeing that in larger law firms now. That sort of, I know through the pandemic, they were sort of forced to, but are we starting to see more come back to the office in larger law firms?
Julie:Yes. I will tell you, ironically, in the last couple searches I was retained for with smaller law firms, I was that was the attraction of someone to leave, quote, unquote, big law because they weren't as flexible, so to speak. Again, not all of them, but many of them were seeking something different. And so I have to kinda do a sales pitch. I'm like, no.
Julie:No. This law firm really is different, and they're sort of tainted by the, you know, 26 100 hour work billable hours or, you know, whatever. But, yeah, people definitely, I would say over the last yeah. Even since COVID 4 years, the work I've done with law firms, people are willing to make that shift, but flexibility is sort of their number 1.
Davina:Wow. Wow. Because obviously for a smaller firm, the the billable hour requirement is not gonna be like it is in a big law firm, big law. I put that in quotes, law firm. And but also along with that is sort of the expectation, oh, I'm worth, you know, $200,000 or I'm worth this amount of money.
Davina:And and maybe a lot of people don't realize that you're but you're not billing the same amount, so you're not making the firm the same amount of money. What kind of feedback do are you getting from people who are sort of looking for jobs and like attorneys who are looking for jobs in law firm with regard to that?
Julie:Yeah. So that's where, again, rewind to my first job, Divina, where I said I wrote all these job descriptions and I had to build a comp structure and I had to understand how to market price jobs that I can educate whether it's a career client or a candidate to say it's not always that apples to apples comparison. So I often get, for instance, people who've been in litigation and maybe they just doesn't suit them anymore and they wanna do something more transactional. Well, if you wanna shift over to an estate planning law firm, for instance, okay, you made 2250 in a downtown big city law firm. It's not the same right now.
Julie:You still have a learning curve, and you're gonna learn and grow so much further. And to your point, you're gonna better most of the time, they're finding better work life balance too.
Davina:Right.
Julie:And it's it's interesting. It's almost like in some candidates, they distrust that. They're like, really? Really? Is that really a thing?
Julie:I'm like, yes. It is. This is what you're gonna get to see, do, and experience, and and it's different. Right? So, so, yeah, there's a little bit of a sales pitch.
Julie:So anytime I work with law firms, I very much ask them to take a step back and say, like, what's your why? Why should someone want to come work for you? Because that shortage of talent like, I was just looking at the Bureau of Labor Statistics. They put out these monthly job reports, and there's still 8 and a half 1000000 job openings. Now that's not just in the legal profession, but remember people are shifting and pivoting.
Julie:And with, you know, national unemployment much less than that, it it is it becomes a what's your why. And and all of you listening as small law firm owners, you have so much value and so much to sell that people are looking for, because they're gonna see, learn, grow, experience
Davina:it
Julie:much faster clip than they would being kind of siloed in their lane and in big losses to be.
Davina:Right. Right. I think one of the biggest mistakes, and this is just my personal opinion in having worked with, you know, law firm owners over the years is that we often don't, we sort of get the feeling I can't compete on price. And so it we get ups, you know, bothered by that and feel like there's no good answer. And I think one of the things that we forget, we don't think about, in addition to the other compensation factors, is really getting dialed in on why we love working with our business, why our employees love working with our business, what is our mission, what is our why, what are our core values.
Davina:And when you're really dialed in on that, then that becomes a part of your sales, story when you're attracting these sort of people to work for you. Because, you know, attorneys are got into being attorneys for a reason other than money. There are some who get it only for money, but most are in it because they have some passion for helping people in a particular way or particular area or something like that. And I think where we where we sort of sell ourselves short is by not being really clear on what we're passionate about about what we do and then communicating that. Do you find that to be the case when you're working with sort of small law firm owner clients?
Julie:I do because they've typically done the let me throw the Indeed posting up that's like, you know, looking for such and such attorney. These are the hours. These are the benefits, and then it's like, please apply. Well, you know what? If you just if anybody just Googles in their market, we'll just call it associate attorney.
Julie:You're probably gonna find hundreds of openings, and how are you gonna differentiate yourself? And so that's why kind of taking a step back, I've done some creative things over the years. In addition to the base comp is you can do signing bonuses. You can do, you know, certainly discretionary bonuses. There's all kinds of things, you know, that are it's just not monetarily the reason why someone's looking.
Julie:They're mostly looking for that better work life balance, that flexibility. And so you do have a lot to offer. And so that's what I really challenge people. I had one law firm over the years where we did, like, hot seat firing questions, so to speak, of like, go. You know?
Julie:What's your favorite movie? What's your favorite you know, just to humanize, you know, that it the culture is really the second thing, Devina, really, people are looking for. Right? They want flexibility, and they want a great place to work. And you all are so busy wearing multiple hats and doing what you do.
Julie:But so when I work with folks, I kinda get them to take a time out to say, alright. What is great? I know you have something wonderful or many things that you can offer. And another place law firms can be competitive, and I know this is kind of a sidebar from what you asked me, is, one of the benefits I always challenge my law firm clients on is paid time off. People want time off.
Julie:And if you're if you're, you know, really struggling with, can I give them 10? Can I give them 15? Do the math, and you're really squabbling about, like, $2,000 to get the person. So that's an easy way to compete is, there's a tip right there. Like, look at your PTO, make it competitive.
Davina:It's interesting you brought that up, and I'd like your opinion on this, and whether or not you're seeing this. So, kind of in in a lot of the large Facebook groups with lawyers in there who own their own law firms, there's a lot of discussion about PTO and this sort of unlimited PTO concept. I'm going to have unlimited PTO. And some people said, you know, the philosophy is they get their work done. I don't care as long as the work is done.
Davina:And what I have discovered with clients as they're scaling and they're the law firms are getting bigger and they're getting over $1,000,000 then they're having issues because now they have a team of, let's say, 10 between their staff and their attorneys. And that unlimited PTO gets a lot trickier because you have to balance. Now I've got, you know, 4 or 5 people out of the office at once. What do I do? Have you seen unlimited PTO as something that small firms are offering?
Julie:I have had some clients offer that. Yes. I've also had them the other spectrum where I'm like, I gotta pull up the log. I'm like, nope. 10 days.
Julie:I I always tell people, if you wanna be competitive, you've gotta start with 12 to 15 and you can't handcuff people. Like, you need to work here for 9 months because people have lives. Right? Especially if you're trying to hire experience. And If someone's giving up 20 days of PTO to come for your 10, and they're really good at what they do, you have to think about the trade off there.
Julie:But like anything else, Devina, I think it's how it becomes how it's managed, how people are held accountable, and how, you know, in most states, again, not that I'm an employment attorney, you know, you just have to look at your wiggle room there. You can try it. If it doesn't work, put some, you know, some parameters in there too.
Davina:Yeah.
Julie:But I you know, because there's large corporations out there, and I didn't research this ahead of time that do unlimited PTO. Right? And I think you have to discern the pros and cons and be willing to try it. And then oftentimes in handbooks and disclaimers, it's like, you know, you reserve the right to alter that at, you know, any point in time. So, you know, it it's just like any PTO policy.
Julie:You just don't want something to I mean, big picture be too cumbersome to manage. Right? So if you balloon and grow and it becomes too cumbersome, then maybe you do need to put some parameters around that. But you want happy productive people, and the only way to do that is to recharge. So maybe it's
Speaker 3:backing down to 15
Julie:if it becomes overly burdensome. But I have worked with other law firms
Davina:The larger they get, the more people you get, the more it starts to become a challenge. But I think the, I think the answer to that is sort of regulation. It's just like anything else. Okay. We give unlimited PTO, but you have to give enough advance notice, you have to make sure everybody else on your team is out at the same time, or you have to get all your hours in before you go or whatever it is.
Davina:I mean, there's rules that you could sort of make around it. But I was I was just curious if you had if you're seeing that as a trend because I certainly have.
Julie:Yes. And and any PTO policy, you should have the accrual, you know, exactly eligibility, you know, how it's scheduled. You you need to have those expectations upfront, even if it is unlimited. Because otherwise, you don't want it to have a negative effect, obviously, on the firm.
Davina:Do you, when people are leaving law firms, what kinds of things are you hearing that they are dissatisfied with?
Julie:Usually, lack of training. Bad boss, of course, is up at the top. And, you know, you can't hold people accountable for something they have no control over. So going back to the billable hour thing, if they're not given a budget to market or time to market, but yet they're held to this big standard, and that goes for any employment situation. You can't hold people accountable for something they don't have control over.
Julie:And so I hear that a lot. Or, you know, my boss is never around and I really wanna mentor, mentor or I really wanna learn this area of the law, but my firm wasn't willing to invest. And so then when they find a smaller law firm that maybe specializes in a particular area, that becomes very attractive to them.
Davina:Right. I'd say I think that's great that's great information for people to have us sort of realize the when you mentioned training and bad boss, what kinds of characteristics are we hearing about bad boss? Do they give you that kind of detail?
Julie:Oh, sure. Yeah. I'm a hard interviewer, so I dig. I dig. Yeah.
Julie:Anything from, you know, just they give me things last minute to, you know, they're never around to answer my questions, or I can't move a case or a file forward, and, you know, then I'm up against the deadline. So certain people are hardwired to, you know, run that rat race all the time. That's what motivates them. And some attorneys, you know, candidates I've spoken with over the last so I've probably been doing attorney recruiting since, what, 2016? So 8 years.
Julie:And various firm positions. But, you know, specifically with the attorneys and the bad boss, it's like they're not around. They're not available. No training. Or okay.
Julie:If you can't do the 1 on 1 training, then you gotta provide or at least guide them to here's your budget, here's some resources, go to ABC Association, or what have you. So that has been the bulk of frustration, as well as, you know, you might be surprised some regional firms, for instance, in certain areas, when I always ask, you know, what pay range are you comfortable with or looking for? Because in a lot of states, you can't directly ask employment history anymore. And, you know, I am actually surprised that it's not terribly off the mark because they get a lot of bonus lingering that they may or may not get. So, you know and sometimes there's complete disparity.
Julie:You know, a firm has a budget of 75 to 110 for an attorney, and somebody's making 210. Okay. You
Davina:know? Right.
Julie:Yes. Right? But but, Devina, I will tell you, I've utilized creative strategies in that situation to say, okay. If the person will come for 1:40, can they work 4 days a week? Because there's a lot of studies out there now in terms of the productivity of working 4 days versus 5 days a week.
Julie:Now I get it depends on the type of law, and especially Right.
Davina:You know. Right.
Julie:But that's a creative strategy. So okay. Can somebody get all their work done essentially in 32 hours a week, give or take?
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Julie:So that's an example of I I might throw that at my clients and they're like, ugh. I don't know. But we we talk it out, and and I've had several over the years consider that option where it made sense. Yeah. I mean, I've I I definitely see to
Davina:to when they make their offers to sort of get the good people. So let's back up to actually how we get the word out about our that we have an opening. Because I think one of the things that I'm advising my clients do is get a lot more creative and a lot more proactive. So we can't just post on Indeed. And it's like it's like putting up a rock in the middle of a river and there it is, and we're just waiting for leaves to come by that get caught up by the rock.
Davina:It's not really working anymore. Right. And so people need to get more creative in their strategies. And I know one of the ways that, you know, obviously you're an advocate for is hiring somebody to help you. Give me an idea of what a recruiter does, because I think a lot of people sort of associate so you're a fee based recruiter.
Davina:And a lot of people associate recruiters with, oh, I'm gonna have to pay them, you know, 25% of the 1st year salary or whatever. I can't afford to do that. Give me an idea of sort of how you work and how that's a little bit different.
Julie:Right. So first of all, that, the arrangement you described, Divina, is most oftentimes, I will say a contingent arrangement. So, yes, I'll just shut, send you candidates here. If you like them, great. You owe me x amount, you know, per percentage.
Julie:I have always worked on a retained basis and here's why. Because I want the personal relationship with my clients. I've done a few contingent arrangements over the years where I I just knew for instance, CPAs, they're another one. They're almost impossible to find, in general generally speaking. So I work on a contingent basis whereas and I offer my clients a variety of options.
Julie:You know, if you just want sort of hourly advisory help, great. If you wanna buy a block of my time to source for you. So sourcing involves, yes, active job boards, but I will tell you, can't even maybe only 40% of people I've, you know, helped identify in the last year came from a job board. I spend the bulk of my time going after people who are happily employed, and and I just happen to tap them on, you know, the virtual shoulder. So it's really about sourcing.
Julie:When you put a job posting out there, it's only 20% of the available talent. Who's who's reaching that other 80%. So that's what I spend the bulk of my time doing, whether it's scrubbing lists or databases or reaching out directly or LinkedIn. You know, I always tell people it's not super secretive. It's just it takes a lot a lot of time.
Julie:And so it's the sourcing component that I mostly help people with and or through the whole process. As the as the job description. I, do a telephone interview, usually, like, 30 to 40 minutes depending on the role. So they have to pass through me before they would actually get to my client. So that saves time.
Julie:Again, if you break down your hourly rate and think about how much time that takes, I sometimes am in the, the Zoom interviews or, Teams interviews or whatever as the second or in person interview. Sometimes we'll have a third with team members and I build out the questionnaires for them too. It's a little bit different, but in terms of start to finish. So I build the interview guides based on what we're saying, those behavioral attributes. I mean, that's that's like 70% of what makes or breaks a match.
Julie:Right? Not so much the technical piece. So I spend a lot of time listening and hearing what, you know, whether your firm's values are integrity, customer service, whatever. And we're asking questions along those lines too. Because, again, I've been doing I've been interviewing a long time.
Julie:You know, you don't wanna ask people leading questions. So sometimes I prep their team and them, like, here's what we're gonna be doing. We go round robin, and then all the way through reference checks, offer letter. Then I use a different vendor to run a background check. So I kinda coordinate, and I'm also that first point of contact.
Julie:So if I'm retained by a law firm, any inquiries, they get kicked to me. And so I just take that off their plate.
Davina:Yeah. That's wonderful. Because one of the things that I'm, advising my clients to do, women law firm owners, is to, find people who can help them because, one of the biggest mistakes I see people make, and I've done this myself. So I'm a terrible interviewer because I can usually find something that I like about just about every person that I talk to. And I'm not and I probably will be more inclined to hire someone who is like me, that we just get along.
Davina:We're doing and I'm looking for people who, are there to cover my weaknesses. You know, they're there to compensate and do things that I don't love to do or can't do. And I use an example of I use a lot of technology in my business, but I am not somebody who has the patience for making technology work. I have to have other people who make technology work for me because I don't have the patience for it. It's just not my natural inclination.
Davina:I'd rather do just about anything else. So but I but I require that. So you know, I'd be sitting talking to somebody and I just think they're great. And then you're like, okay, but yeah, they don't have the tech skills that I need. Right?
Davina:And so I see this happen a lot with people. And that's where I think it's so important to have other people involved in your interview process. Whether that is a coach or recruiter or other team members even can take some things off of your plate, do those preliminary sorting and preliminary interviews before they get to you. Because when you're running a law firm, the last thing you want to do is manage the entire recruiting process from start to finish, right? You need some other people involved in that process.
Davina:Let me ask you this, your I want to there's 2 things I want to ask you. 1, don't let me forget is about the about the strengths, you know, evaluating strengths and things like that. As with the other one, I is, I think one of the fears that people have is if I hire somebody to help me recruit, and I pay their fees and then after 90 days, this person quits, what happens then? So give me an idea of what do you think. Do you think the success rate in working with someone like you is higher than just kind of like taking a stab and somebody introduce you to somebody or you find somebody on Indeed or when you interview them, you think they're a good fit.
Davina:And why do you think that is?
Julie:Yeah. I mean, I I think you have to do your due diligence, whether it's me or somebody else or or whatever. You have to know best practices in interviewing and how to ask the right questions and not ask leading questions. I had a client once, Divina, who said, I think I have broken bird syndrome. You know, every time I'd meet with someone, I, you know, saw, oh, but I could really help them if I hired them.
Julie:And and so she jokes, and she's like, yeah, Julie. I did it again, you know, kinda thing. But recruiters should have some sort of clause, that mine where should I look what mine is? I think I do about 4 months. You know, if they leave for some reason within that time frame, I'll redo the search, minus just job posting fees kinda thing.
Julie:But I think, you know and or having an objective third party, I brought in sometimes too. Like, Julie, I found these 2 people. I'm undecided between these 2. Can you interview them? And then I also use the Colby, which I can mention what that is.
Julie:So oftentimes, I burst people's bubbles. I'm like, here or the famous one with small law firms. It's like my best friend or, you know, my sister's cousin or whatever because there's a trust. Right? But it doesn't mean they might be lovely as a client service coordinator, but they're not gonna be great as a marketer or vice versa.
Julie:Because there's certain skill sets or my favorite question is, you like marketing. Right? You know? So what's the thing? Someone's gonna say, you know, you've developed lots of business.
Julie:Right? Yeah. You know, and it's You're
Davina:a people person, aren't you? Yeah.
Julie:Where's the data there?
Davina:I well, this my I have made some people mad when I say this, but I tell people this all the time because I've seen it over and over again. I have a job opening. I'm desperate because I put this off and now I really need somebody. And a friend of a friend told me that so and so is looking for a job or my brother-in-law is looking for a job or my sister is, you know and I, I I'm I'm very much against that. And it doesn't mean that it that doesn't mean that there aren't appropriate options for your family members working for you.
Davina:So if they bring in a or working with you, if they bring in a skill set that the job requires. But most often what you see is somebody trying to take a round peg, square hole kind of situation, you know, and fit that together. And and I and I'm just like, you're not an employment agency for every broke person who needs a job. And that's what we see over and over again with small business owners in general, not just lawyers.
Julie:Yeah. Absolutely. You you you hit it right on the head. It doesn't mean you can't carve out, but then you need to know what these person's strengths are and what they will are not willing to do. I once had a law firm, and this is probably, like, 5 years ago, where she's like, this is my best friend.
Julie:I think she'll be great. Again, I kinda burst that bubble, between our conversation, which I have very pointed questions I've developed over the last several years. And then I use the Colby index, which is all about instinctively how will you take action and get stuff done at work, bottom line. So people can be super nice, have great communication skills. But if your job, for instance, requires really high follow through and really high detail orientation, and these people just aren't.
Julie:That's not a strength for them. It's gonna be hard, going back to that marketing example. Devina, I know some law firms as they grow from business development to they need someone to manage their CRM, whether it's Infusionsoft or whatever you're using, Clio Grow. And those are oftentimes not one in the same skill set.
Davina:Right.
Julie:And I've seen a lot of people get tripped up. And I've I've done talks across the country with attorneys over the years. And I literally remember standing on stage and saying, please don't call me and just say I need a marketer because you gotta be willing to sit down and we really gotta flush out what that is. And that's probably the biggest mistake is people don't flush out the core responsibilities and then the skills needed. And that's what you're trying to match to as best we can.
Davina:Often see this, and I'm sure you've seen this as well, but we often see I have this wonderful paralegal, and now I need a a, you know, client care specialist or I need somebody who's going to and you might have a paralegal who's a wonderful paralegal because she likes to sit in a room with the door shut, and hammer out paperwork, and gets annoyed when people interrupt her. And then you're gonna take her and say, well, I have this. So now they're going to answer phones and, you know, interact with clients that are coming in and that kind of thing. And they're vastly different personalities for those different types of jobs. Now, let's not say there aren't paralegals who are really wonderful with people and and all of that, because certainly there can be those.
Davina:But, but really hammering out the and you often see small business, small business owners and and particularly small law firms. I've a lot of kind of, I have this person and I have this other work, and I'm just gonna have them do this work and this work. And then you realize I have been doing 3 different just like me, I'm doing 3 different jobs in the business or 6 different jobs in the business. Now I'm putting that on my employees. And I think that often creates dissatisfaction and causes people to leave because they're sitting here, I'm doing the work of 3 people in 3 different types of jobs.
Davina:And we see that we see that a lot. Do you hear that from people who are sort of leaving?
Julie:I do. And especially that front facing position, whatever everybody calls it, whether it's receptionist slash client service coordinator slash whatever. If any part of that job, if they're number 1 person on the phones and they still need some, like, think time to make sure they're not they're inputting things. Over the years, I've coached a lot of law firms around that, and it's like you've gotta either have 2 separate role roles, excuse me, or carve out time for that person each day to go do their uninterrupted tasks. Right?
Davina:Right. Because there
Julie:are very few people who can some some can. But again, you gotta scream for that by asking the right questions, making sure you have the right Colby c outline for that. But yeah. That that has always been a tricky position, that front facing position, because people think, oh, well, they have time to do this or do that. And let's add to that.
Julie:But
Davina:you have Marketing is the big thing that I hear a lot too. I can have them post all my, you know, and create my, create my graphics, write my they don't think you have to create graphics, write copy. What if this person doesn't have any skill in writing copy for that's marketing and sales copy for your social media? What if they don't have any graphic design skills? And and you're like, but they have this time and I can have them do this.
Davina:And it's like, yeah, but they don't have the skill set for that or Right. You know, or do they and you have to ask that. So tell me about Colby and why you prefer it over. I put I particularly like CliftonStrengths. I know there's a lot of things out there.
Davina:Enneagram and Myers Briggs and DISC is a popular one. I have done Colby as well. Tell me what it is that you love about Colby in particular.
Julie:Sure. Yeah. So I, Devina, have been exposed to oodles of assessments in my years in HR, and I was first introduced to Colby in about 20 15, 16. And the reason I have found it, and I have to recertify every year in it to be helpful is so we basically have kinda three parts of our mind at work. We're looking for that technical skill set or skills and background.
Julie:Right? And then your personality. So strength finders, again, great tool as well. And DISC, those are examples of what we call effective assessments. So they're kinda more personality based, things people like or prefer.
Julie:Colby is different because it is the only assessment that measures what's called conation, which is how do you instinctively get work done? So I can look at someone's Colby and say, they're not detailed or they're gonna be up out of their seat all the time or they're gonna get stressed out if you give them 10 priorities at one time. And so it does the Colby a is the initial tool that says, here's my here are my strengths. Here's how I work. And the Colby c, I mentioned a moment ago, allows an a law firm owner to say, this is what I need in the job.
Julie:And you can kinda compare the 2. Because what you need in a marketing coordinator might be very different than, I don't know, a business development manager or whatever you call them. People who are out
Davina:of the back
Julie:in the community and bringing in warm leads. And what's the trick to that? Follow-up. So you need a high follow through person. If someone is kind of low follow through, for instance, in their Colby, they are the people who begrudgingly, you know, either entering their time or tracking who you know, their leads in a spreadsheet.
Julie:They just don't do it. And I've worked with a lot of law firm owners as well where they're like, you know, so and so is great at, you know, bringing in the business, but I cannot get him to give me my weekly reports. And it is. Their struggles. And then I've coached them around that of you gotta make it a habit or can you automate it, or maybe it's just simply a different skill set that you need a part time person.
Davina:Yeah. Yeah. I I think there's a lot of misunderstanding people. I was in marketing for 15 years before I became a lawyer. And I I worked as a marketing coordinator, marketing manager and business I've worked in business development.
Davina:And I think a lot of, law firm owners don't understand that they're these are different positions with different skill sets. They think I need somebody to do marketing. And like you said, until they're clear on what that means, they don't know how to get the right person for the job. And there is a hierarchy to that. Just like there's a hierarchy in the law of, you know, we're gonna hire a baby lawyer or an associate.
Davina:We're gonna hire a senior associate. Then there's gonna be maybe a non equity partner and then an equity partner. And there's a hierarchy within marketing as well. And I think a lot of people don't realize that. And it's really changed with tools like social media.
Davina:And, because you one mistake that I've made is hiring you know, I've hired somebody to handle social media, but I have multiple platforms and they're only good at 1 or 2 platforms. They're not good at all the platforms.
Julie:Right.
Davina:And thinking that, oh, I'm gonna get somebody to do my social media and every platform is different. So like one of the things I really love is I have a a person who does my Instagram and Facebook, and she she's an expert on Instagram and Facebook and she's always telling me, oh, Instagram just added these new features and now we need to do this or that. And I'm like, do it because I have no interest and I want it done. Right? So, I think, clarity on who you who you're the kind of person you're looking to hire exactly what they're gonna do is a huge part of it that a lot of people don't do their homework on before they start fishing out there for Right.
Davina:People.
Julie:And also, like, what does success look like in this role? Like, what are you expecting this person to accomplish in the 1st several months? Like, is it, you know because to your point, copywriting. Right? Sales copy is very different than indirect act you know, getting people to take action.
Julie:Very different than informational copywriting. Over my years, made that mistake too. You know, someone had done mostly,
Davina:I
Julie:don't know, product copywriting or something very, very different. Right? Very different.
Davina:Yeah. Yeah. I definitely, so I have a degree in writing, and a lot of my writing was content writing. And then I had to learn how to be a copywriter, which in the writing world, copywriters are write sales a copy, and we write sales language. My degree is in journalism, which is a totally different thing.
Davina:And content writing are things like blogs and podcasts and things like that. It's a it's a whole different type of thing. And I think, you know, we often don't educate ourselves on the exact thing that we need enough to understand it to be able to put it out there. So that's a big mistake in attracting people. And I wanna talk a little bit about the ad and how it whether there are trends in writing, ads.
Davina:Because one of the things that a few years ago, it was very common. And I know I was all the Facebook groups and all the lawyers were talking about this, about using your ad as a screening. You know, so they will write these really long ads. This is everything the job does. This is what you're expected to do.
Davina:And stand on one foot and record a video while you're holding a monkey, as you apply for this ad. They were using Yeah. Using their ads and they were making people jump through hoops. And I get it from a lawyer standpoint because oftentimes we hire people and then we find out they don't they're not detail oriented because they didn't read the details. But really, we're in an environment now where I'm advising people that you really need your your ad really needs to be a reason why somebody wants to come work for you as opposed to jump through all these hoops and I might let you work for me if you're worthy.
Davina:Right? Are you seeing that as well?
Julie:Oh, yes. And I when I first started working with law firms, like I said about 8 years ago, Divina, they were like, they must follow all my steps or we won't even look at them. And I was like, that might have worked 20 years ago, but the market, it's a job seeker's market. And if you put any barrier to entry in front of them, you know, they're not going to do it. Now I get it.
Julie:You could say, well, I don't want that person. I I totally get it. But if you at least want to test the market and, you know, begin to have conversations with people, you got you have to write a posting that is somewhat enticing. And that's where the Colby language is also very Divina, because when they define what they need in the role, I put that in the posting. And lo and behold, it attracts the right people.
Julie:Do you have high follow through? Are you detail oriented? Do you thrive on change? You know, whatever it is. It tends to attract those kinds of people as well.
Julie:But you absolutely it is more of a sales proposition for sure.
Davina:Well, and I and I what I tell people is the screening is done. Like, first of all, we want, I used to work in a large law firm. I was in marketing at the time. And but I worked with the recruiting committee and the hiring partner. And one of the things he said to me is so they had a recruiting program where they would go to law schools and they would get summer interns and they would work them through the summer.
Davina:And what their goal was through the summer was to make all of those interns love them. They wanted all the interns to love them, love the firm, love working where so that by the end of the summer, they could pick and choose which ones they wanted. He said, we want them to fall in love with us. And I think there is that strategy. It's a little, you know, cagey if you're on the other side.
Davina:But when you're looking at hiring, if you say, well, you know, I want an ad that makes people this is like the best place to work because you really have to you really have to, you're the big biggest promoter of your business. So you really should be going out telling people why this is the greatest place to work. This is awesome. It is a wonderful place. Everybody loves working here.
Davina:This is our culture. This is what we're about. And then when they then let them come to you and they're ready to jump through a few hoops to get the job. But if you just put hoops out there, right at the beginning, they're gonna go, well, this tells me the kind of place this is to work and I don't wanna be there.
Julie:Well, right. And they have options. Simply put, they have options. So while earlier, we just started speaking, I said, you know, obviously, I get the budget for, you know, big law versus some of the your listeners is going to be different. You also to your point, you want it to be a great fit culturally.
Julie:Right? And you've gotta have an open mind in that regard because, yeah, to to put these parameters now it doesn't I always tell people, look. That's why we screen and we ask these hard questions because we wanna see if they're a good fit. Gone are the days in my original recruiting, I would say, parameters. It's like, okay.
Julie:I'll wait till I get 3 great people, and then I'm sending them to you. Oh my gosh. That's been gone for, like, 12 years now. Because someone could be here today and gone tomorrow. Right.
Julie:Yes. Yes. You you wanna eliminate any barriers, whether it's timing. So that's a lot of what I do too is try and manage, you know, hey. You're a top candidate of interest.
Julie:We're trying to get the team together. I'll be in touch soon. Or you all need to be doing that for sure. Because just because someone expressed interest, it's, you know, minus a cup couple states. Everyone's employed at will, and they have tons of options.
Julie:And in my screening, I flat out asked Divina, are you are you actively interviewing? Because it's no secret. And I'll have people say, yeah. I actually you know, what's your process? I have a second interview with 2 law firms next week.
Julie:So then again, I just try to keep it transparent and try to keep the communication moving. So that would be a tip for anyone who's for sure doing this. You you have to be timely in your responses and not assume people are just sitting around waiting till you're ready.
Davina:That is huge because I have had some I've known some people who sit on their offer letter because they're so busy. They're so busy working
Julie:and
Davina:I Yeah, I'm gonna hire them. I told them verbally I wanted to hire them. But then they sat on the offer letter and didn't get it out because they were so busy doing things. And that's where I say, get somebody to help you get the offer letter out if you're that busy, because I've seen opportunities missed because they couldn't get an offer out timely. And, you know, that I think that's a huge misstep that that people make because they're not really paying attention to, like you said, that people have options.
Davina:I did wanna go back and talk about one thing that I thought was a great point you made, is that there's a whole one of the reasons why some people are making bad hires and having bad turnover is they're putting things out and they're only getting applicants who are without a job, who are job seeking. And they're the people that they're really wanting are probably working at another firm right now and maybe not actively looking, but they're thinking, boy, one day I'm gonna quit this place. And if so, if we were proactively addressing them, you know, reaching out to them, they might say, oh, yeah, this is faith that this opportunity has come to me. And and I, you know, I think in recruiting, that's sort of one of the advantages that recruiters have is you guys, you know, develop a network where you're and you have methods for sort of reaching out to people who are already employed. And that really opens up the spectrum because I I'm seeing a lot right now where people are sort of getting people hopping from job to job.
Davina:And they're like, why is it that like, so I hire this person and I knew they were hopping for job, but I only have one candidate. And I'm like, well, yeah, because you've got the one person who's unemployable who keeps hopping from place to place.
Julie:And you'll
Davina:find out till you hire they're a good interview and then you'll find out till you hire them that they have some really bad personality cork or something.
Julie:Right. No. Absolutely. And so it is it's you really want access to that other 80%. And so I know we mentioned I do career coaching, and that's why I'm so passionate.
Julie:I'm like, there is this missing link. You know? The folks I coach on the career side, they just wanna do, you know, the good thing and upload their application. It gets missed, or whatever or overlooked or goes to spam or whatever. And then the law firm owners are like, how do I find these people?
Julie:Right? And it is years years ago in Central Pennsylvania, there was this billboard, I think it was with a health care system that said, know us before you need us. And that has been something I have tried to reinforce with anyone I work with. Like, look, I'm not a staffing agency. Yes.
Julie:I have a network, but I can't just send you 3 people to start tomorrow. That's not how it works because it's very customized to what you're saying will work in your firm, Divina, will be different than, you know, this firm over here and this firm over here. So, you know, being clear on the expectations, being clear on who's the right fit, and involving your employees, in an employee referral system. I mean, you know your clients. The best clients come from referrals.
Julie:Same thing with employees oftentimes or at least somebody to talk to is so so important.
Davina:And I don't think people look at it that way. It's one of the things I've really been discussing a lot is how lately is we understand marketing and rainmaking from a standpoint of networking. I need to build my network and we're learning how to use social media tools to build networks, as well as doing in person networking, speaking, podcasting, guest podcasting, that kind of thing to build a network. But oftentimes, we don't ever think about our recruiting for our business is the same process in that we need to know people and network with people so that that when somebody, you know, somebody great will reach out and go, I'd love to come work with you. You know?
Julie:Yep. And I also don't know just even logistically how many of your folks have careers pages on their website. And I've worked with a lot of law firms over the years. I'm like, you've got you need to have it, you know again, 20 some years ago, people would say I'm not taking unsolicited resumes. Oh, no.
Julie:Now you want them. Right? Like, showcase your employees, what it's like to work there. And even if you just have a quick blip, like, we're always you know, we always welcome anyone who's interested in learning more about our firm. It can be something super simple.
Julie:But if you don't have a careers page, you could be missing out on that component too.
Davina:Yeah. Yeah. That's that I've been giving a lot of clients that advice lately is have put get your careers page and you can direct people back to it. And also like, you know, for some people who live in areas where it's difficult to recruit because they don't have people there, they're in rural areas or, you know, really beautiful areas, but there's not a lot of the population's small. One of the things I've said is make it like, it needs to be a tourism brochure on your like, you wanna take beautiful pictures of the sunsets that you have there in the mountains and the or the ocean or the lake or whatever it is, and people having fun and say, this is a great place to live.
Davina:Don't you wanna come and here's the signing bonus or moving bonus or whatever. So, you know, I do think you have to get a lot more creative and you have to put more effort into it. It's not something as easy as just posting an ad anymore. So Julie, thanks so much for being here today. Tell us how we can I know I know I've got a lot of listeners, my own clients?
Davina:I'm gonna be passing your information along to certain people that I have in my mind. But tell us how we can connect with you if we need your help with recruiting for our small law firm.
Julie:Sure. Yes. You're welcome to visit my website, which is careerdevelopmentadvisors.net, and I have a button you can just schedule a call with me. Be happy to hear and listen and give you some suggestions, or my email is just jshore@careeredevelopmentadvisors.net. So either way works, and I'm always happy to to listen and give you give you some ideas.
Julie:Great.
Davina:Thank you so much. I really enjoyed our conversation.
Julie:Yes. Thank you for having me.
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