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For over 25 years Proverbs 31 Ministries' mission has been to intersect God's Word in the real, hard places we all struggle with. That's why we started this podcast. Every episode will feature a variety of teachings from president Lysa TerKeurst, staff members or friends of the ministry who can teach you something valuable from their vantage point. We hope that regardless of your age, background or stage of life, it's something you look forward to listening to each month!
KALEY OLSON:
Hi, friends. Thanks for tuning in to the Proverbs 31 Ministries podcast, where we share biblical truth for any girl in any season. I'm your host, Kaley Olson, and I'm here today with my co-host and my friend, Cailah Garcia.
CAILAH GARCIA:
Hey, girl.
KALEY:
Hey. What is up?
CAILAH:
I love every time we're on the podcast together.
KALEY:
I know, me too.
CAILAH:
Like, when you Slacked me and asked me, I was like, "I have to be there."
KALEY:
I know. I know. And I moved offices here at our, at our-
CAILAH:
Mm-hmm ...
KALEY:
um, headquarters, and I'm no longer downstairs-
CAILAH:
I know ...
KALEY:
in the same vicinity.
CAILAH:
I am having separation anxiety.
KALEY:
I'm upstairs, so we get ... We, we should, we should do this more often.
CAILAH:
I know.
KALEY:
It's fun.
CAILAH:
We really should, guys. But today we're here for a conversation with a good friend of ours, Sharon Hodde Miller.
KALEY:
Mm-hmm.
CAILAH:
And I am so excited she's on the podcast today-
KALEY:
Mm-hmm ...
CAILAH:
because we're going to be talking all about self-forgetfulness and just this feeling of insecurity that we-
KALEY:
Mm-hmm ...
CAILAH:
all have faced at some point in our lives.
KALEY:
Mm-hmm.
CAILAH:
And when I tell you this conversation was for me, I felt roasted at the end-
KALEY:
Yeah, me …
CAILAH:
of the conversation.
KALEY:
I know. Stick a fork in me. I'm done ...
CAILAH:
And, uh, honestly, honestly. Because I think what you're gonna walk away with is some practical ways to really take insecurity by the throat, if you will-
KALEY:
Mm-hmm
CAILAH:
and lean in and really reposition your eyes back on Jesus-
KALEY:
Mm-hmm ...
CAILAH:
today, because I think it's so easy to get our eyes focused on our pain, on our situation-
KALEY:
Mm-hmm ...
CAILAH:
on ourselves, and remember that God is really the only one that can heal the things in us that need to be healed..So.
KALEY:
Oh. Yeah.
CAILAH:
I'm excited.
KALEY:
So good, and so true, and so freeing. There's not ... There's no one out here who doesn't need to hear this message.
CAILAH:
I know.
KALEY:
But I do wanna take a hot second and speak to the woman who is listening, and maybe your insecurity is connected to, "Okay, I know I'm supposed to take a next step."
CAILAH:
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
KALEY:
"I know I'm supposed to tell my story, but I'm kinda shrinking back," or, "I know I'm supposed to start that podcast."
CAILAH:
Right.
KALEY:
Or, "I know I'm supposed to lead Bible study at my church. I know I'm supposed to talk to the pastor about this thing that I wanna start, and how I wanna-
CAILAH:
Right ...
KALEY:
like reach this specific group of women." I don't know who you are. I don't know what the Lord is speaking to you.
CAILAH:
Yeah.
KALEY:
But I know sometimes when the Lord is speaking to me, I want confirmation that-
CAILAH:
Mm-hmm
KALEY:
uh, this is what I'm supposed to do.
CAILAH:
Right.
KALEY:
So first of all, let this serve as, like, another little Gideon moment for you-
CAILAH:
Right, please ...
KALEY:
of me just being like, "Hey, there's something in your heart that God has been asking you to do.
CAILAH:
Mm-hmm.
KALEY:
And you need to stop pretending like you're not the girl for that job, because-
CAILAH:
Right
KALEY:
there are a lot of women that God calls to do a lot of different things. The good news-
CAILAH:
Right …
KALEY:
is that- There's a lot of us doing it.
CAILAH:
Right.
KALEY:
Which means it's not all up to you, first of all.
CAILAH:
Yeah.
KALEY:
But second of all, sometimes we get it here at Proverbs 31-
CAILAH:
Mm-hmm ...
KALEY:
because we're a group of women who are all called to, like, really hard things-
CAILAH:
Right
KALEY:
in ministry.
CAILAH:
100%.
KALEY:
That sometimes you need to close the gap between-
CAILAH:
Right ...
KALEY:
where you are now and getting some of the skills and encouragement and-
CAILAH:
Mm-hmm ...
KALEY:
insight you need to actually be equipped to take that next step. And so at She Speaks every year, this is exactly what we do. We have a two-day plus a bonus day-
CAILAH:
Yeah
KALEY:
conference. This year it's happening July 16th through 18th-
CAILAH:
Yep …
KALEY:
here in Charlotte, and our emphasis this year really is on that story-
CAILAIH:
Yeah ...
KALEY:
that the Lord has called you to share because God has allowed some things in your life, and He doesn't want you to waste them.
CAILAIH:
Nope.
KALEY:
And She Speaks is the conference that's gonna help you understand how God is working, how He has worked, and how He-
CAILAH:
Yeah
KALEY:
can work through that story. And I am so pumped about it. We don't have very many tickets left to-
CAILAH:
I know ... It's honestly almost sold out.
KALEY:
the conference here in Charlotte. And so I want you guys to go to shespeaksconference.com. Check out the website. Look at our registration options.
CAILAH:
Yep.
KALEY:
It's actually really affordable.
CAILAH:
We need you in the room.
KALEY:
Yes, we need you in the room, and we want you to come.
CAILAH:
Yep.
KALEY:
We're gonna worship together.
CAILAH:
Mm-hmm.
KALEY:
We're gonna pray together. We're gonna learn together, and it's gonna be amazing.
CAILAH:
I literally can't wait.
KALEY:
And I'm so excited about it.
CAILAH:
It's, like, my favorite time of the year.
KALEY:
Yeah, yeah.
CAILAH:
And I am just so excited for what God's going to do.
KALEY:
Yeah.
CAILAH:
And our friend Sharon's going to be speaking.
KALEY:
Yeah, that's true. That's true.
CAILAH:
So you have to be there
KALEY:
Sharon is gonna be there. Lysa Turkeurst is gonna be there.
CAILAH:
I know. Joel Muddamalle.
KALEY:
Megan Fate Marshman.
CAILAH:
So many good people.
KALEY:
Like, there's so many fantastic people that I just am so excited to learn from, so-
CAILAH:
Honestly
KALEY:
There's no reason.
CAILAH:
No.
KALEY:
No reason for you not to come.
CAILAH:
Show up, girlie. We need you there.
KALEY:
Yeah, absolutely.
CAILAH:
All right. Well, friends, I think it's that time. Are we ready to dive in, Kaley?
KALEY:
So ready. Let's go.
CAILAH:
Let's do it.
KALEY:
Okay, Sharon, welcome to the Proverbs 31 Ministries podcast. It's your first time-
SHARON HODDE MILLER:
Hi ...
KALEY:
very first time here.
SHARON:
I know.
KALEY:
We're so thrilled to have you.
CAILAH:
We've been so looking forward to this conversation, honestly.
KALEY:
I know. I know. And, uh, before we actually started rolling, uh, we saw Sharon has a little-
CAILAH:
Mm-hmm ...
KALEY:
Diet Coke on, on-
CAILAH:
Mm-hmm ...
KALEY:
her side of the mic, and I'm not only looking forward to this message, but I'm looking forward to a Diet Coke after we finish recording.
CAILAH:
Need one immediately
KALEY:
Need one immediately. But Sharon, it is your first time on the Proverbs 31 Ministries podcast, and I really-
CAILAH:
Mm-hmm ...
KALEY:
don't understand how this is the first time- ... because word on the street is that you used to work at Proverbs 31, and we have to get to that, okay?
CAILAH:
Yes.
KALEY:
But I do need to let our listeners know, like, the formal part of who you are, and then we can talk about your P31 history. Does that sound good?
SHARON:
That sounds great.
KALEY:
Okay. Good, Sharon, well, Sharon, you're very accomplished, my friend, because-
CAILAH:
I, I would have to agree ...
KALEY:
I mean, it's a lot. Like, this is a summary. Listen to this. Sharon's a mom to three kids, a wife, an author, a pastor at Bright City Church, and a teacher of God's Word. One thing that I realize I didn't put in here is that you have doctor in front of your name-
CAILAH:
Literally
KALEY:
which is a huge deal.
CAILAH:
A smart lady.
KALEY:
Sharon, wow, I now know why you need a Diet Coke. My friend. How you doing over there? You, like, how are you holding it all together on a random Tuesday that we're recording?
SHARON:
Well, I mean, it's Diet Coke and the Holy Spirit.
CAILAH:
That part.
KALEY:
I think, I think there's a woman driving through McDonald's right now, or Chick-fil-A, getting a-
CAILAH:
For sure
KALEY:
crispy Diet Coke who probably-
SHARON:
Absolutely
KALEY:
just said amen. Okay. Well, Sharon, I did mention that, uh, you used to work at Proverbs 31, but, like, in the early, early, early days.
SHARON:
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah.
KALEY:
So can you tell us about what time was that? What time period, and what did you do?
SHARON:
Mm-hmm. So that was 2003, 2004, and I had just graduated from college. And I was interning for Lysa.
KALEY:
Wow.
SHARON:
And so I was just getting my feet wet in women's ministry, and at the time-
CAILAH:
So amazing
SHARON:
there were probably five people working for Proverbs 31 total.
KALEY:
Wow.
SHARON:
Yeah. We were in, like, a pretty small office building. Uh, I traveled with Lysa. Back then she was still speaking to you know, more small conferences and retreats. And so not only did I learn the ropes of traveling, but also the more humbling, hard sides of traveling.
KALEY:
Yeah, yeah.
SHARON:
Like Lysa famously tells people that her worst travel experience was with me. Not because of me, I just happened to be, I just happened to be with her, and it was this, like, epically horrible travel experience.
CAILAH:
Wow.
SHARON:
And so I learned a lot from working at Proverbs 31.
CAILAH:
Yeah.
KALEY:
Yeah, absolutely. There's a lot that goes into the stage or the mic-
CAILAH:
It does
KALEY:
that people don't like to talk about. It is a lot more involved than that.
SHARON:
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
CAILAH:
I know. But it takes special people to help guide you through it, and to show up for you-
KALEY:
It does. It does ...
CAILAH:
and to help you just be that guiding hand in the moments you need it most.
KALEY:
Yeah, I agree.
SHARON:
Mm-hmm.
KALEY:
Well, and then, um, Sharon, another fun thing-
SHARON:
Yes
KALEY:
that I think our listeners need to know
CAILAH:
Tell us ...
KALEY:
is that, um, well, I had a fun question picked out, because as I was scouring your website for who you were and, like, all the things, you had this fun fact listed about Disney, and that you really, really love Disney.
SHARON:
Mm-hmm. I do.
KALEY:
And I also think a large portion of our audience there's, like, Disney
CAILAH:
Oh, 100% ...
KALEY:
who doesn't have, like, a connection to Disney in some way?
SHARON:
Right.
KALEY:
So in order to understand your personality, we know you're a busy lady.
SHARON:
Mm-hmm.
KALEY:
We know you're a, a doctor of the Word. We know you love Diet Coke. We know you traveled with Lysa. But if you could base, like, your personality on a Disney character, what would it be?
SHARON:
Hmm.
CAILAH:
This is such a good question. I love- I love this.
SHARON:
I know. That is a really hard question. I mean, whenever I pick, like, my avatar for if it's Disney+, or-
KALEY:
Mm
SHARON:
like, when you go to the park, you have to pick a character-
CAILAH:
Right.
KALEY:
Oh, yeah
SHARON:
To kind of symbolize you in the account, I always pick Minnie Mouse.
CAILAH:
Oh, cute.
SHARON:
And so, 'cause she's like, you know, it's her and Mickey.
CAILAH:
Yeah. They're, like, the main ones. And so I, I definitely love Minnie Mouse. Yeah. But I think in terms of characters, I, I probably do relate a lot to Belle maybe-
KALEY:
Hmm
SHARON:
just because she likes to read.
KALEY:
Okay.
SHARON:
And I like to read.
CAILAH:
Great, that's a good one. So I relate to Belle as well.
KALEY:
If, if you're gonna get your doctorate, you have to like to read.
CAILAH:
Honestly. You know? On, like, hundreds and hundreds if not thousands of pages-
KALEY:
Right
CAILAH:
of text.
KALEY:
Well, I think it's, it's always fun to just kind of know, like, oh, this is probably what Sharon's like in person.
CAILAH:
Right?
SHARON:
Mm-hmm.
KALEY:
Just a little bit.
SHARON:
Yep.
CAILAH:
I know.
KALEY:
Yeah.
CAILAH:
I love that. Belle is one of my favorites, too. I love her.
KALEY:
Yeah.
CAILAH:
Actually, the very first thing I can remember, like the very first movie I ever saw in theaters was Mulan.
KALEY:
Oh, that's fun
CAILAH:
Yeah.
KALEY:
That's fun. I have no recollection- ... of the movie. It's been a long time. All right, Cailah.
CAILAH:
Well, I think we're ready to dive in, Sharon, and I'm so excited about what you're gonna be teaching on today because you have done some incredible work about the concept of self-forgetfulness.
SHARON:
Mm-hmm.
CAILAH:
And I think it's so needed, and I can't wait for our listeners to hear more about it. Are you ready to teach us some incredible things today?
SHARON:
I am ready.
CAILAH:
All right, let's dive in.
SHARON:
Yeah, so I actually wanted to take everyone on a journey that I went on a number of years ago now around the topic of insecurity. I had been in ministry for, this is early on, so this was probably about 15 years ago, I was in ministry, as I shared with y'all.
SHARON:
I started out working for Proverbs 31, and because I early on got to have Lysa as a mentor, she really encouraged my writing and my speaking. And so after I left Proverbs 31, went back to seminary actually, but just continued on that path for a number of years, really loved it. I am someone who loves teaching the Bible. It has always been a huge passion for me.
SHARON:
And so I did that for a number of years, but after doing that for a while, I noticed that something inside of me began to shift, like my relationship with ministry, the work of ministry began to shift. And the best way that I would describe it is if you imagine running a race, you know, Scripture compares faith to running a race, and I was running this race, I had my eyes fixed on Christ, but at some point my eyes started to shift, and I started to look at the women who were running next to me, and I started to compare myself to them.
SHARON:
Or I started looking at the women who were maybe a few paces ahead of me, and I needed acknowledgement and affirmation from them. And I, if I, if I did not compare well to the women who were running next to me, I began to feel very insecure. Or if I did not get affirmation or acknowledgement from the women ahead of me, it was just shattering. It was devastating to me.
SHARON:
And so I noticed what began to happen is I became very insecure about the work I was doing for ministry. Like, I would write things and put them out into the world and need a specific type of response, and if I did not get that response, I was really insecure about it, incredibly emotionally fragile.
SHARON:
And I was really confused about this and honestly embarrassed because of all things, ministry is not about you. You know, it is about Jesus. It's not about the kind of response that you get. And so I couldn't tell like where this was coming from, but also just why have I become so insecure? It wasn't something that I had up until that point struggled with. Like insecurity was not a struggle of mine. I struggled with other things, but insecurity just wasn't one of them.
SHARON:
And it almost became debilitating to a point where I remember one night sitting on the couch with my husband and he had his arms around me and I was just sobbing like, what is going on? Like, why am I so insecure about this work that God has called me to? And so I started researching it. As I mentioned, you know, I relate to Belle. I have a PhD. I am a researcher at heart. And so that was my response to this problem is like, I'm going to figure it out. I'm going to solve it. I'm going to crack the code.
SHARON:
So I started reading books about insecurity and reading blog posts because back then blogs were especially like really big, reading blog posts about insecurity articles, you know, listening to podcasts, all of that, trying to understand what was going on. I also during that time began reading the Bible to understand what it said about me.
SHARON:
Like I just assumed I must not believe the truth about myself. And so I need to start reading what scripture speaks over me and what God believes about me and how he created me with a purpose and how he loves me unconditionally.
SHARON:
And so that was my approach for about six months as I did all that research. I was soaking in scripture and I did that for a while. And then at the end of that six months, it might even have been a year, honestly, I realized that it had not helped at all, that it was not touching what was going on inside of me.
SHARON:
And looking back, it is predictable both that that is how I approached insecurity and also that it didn't work because I, like many of you listening, I was raised in the self-esteem generation. And the core wisdom of the self-esteem generation, which interestingly, th- this is just to, like, nerd out 'cause, um, we've already established I'm a nerd, and so for any of you fellow nerds out there, a little history lesson. The self-esteem generation, millennials get a lot of flack for it. It actually started with the boomers, and so it, it's been around for a while, but it's been around long enough for us to know the effects of it.
SHARON:
And the wisdom of it is, kind of the, or, or rather I would say its core conviction is that if you just know how special you are, that that will set you free. And the church has kind of taken that and Christianized it. Like, if you know how special you are to God, then that will set you free. And so a lot of us were raised sort of on that, that notion. It, it, it's almost like an alternative gospel, that this is the thing, knowing how special you are, that is the thing that, that saves you, that, that releases you from the bondage of insecurity.
SHARON:
And so it makes sense that I naturally approach my insecurity that way, looking at what does the Bible say about me. But the thing is, because this movement has been around for a while, we also have done a lot of research now on it, just in general. Like, researchers have looked at did this yield the results that they thought that it would? And the answer is no, it, it doesn't. It did not produce this generation of confident young people. In fact, young people today are more insecure than ever. And so what the self-esteem movement yielded was not more self-assured young people, but simply more self-focused people.
SHARON:
So all that to say, it, it makes sense that I tried to treat my insecurity this way, and also why it ultimately failed. And so what I realized at the end of that, that journey was I need to back up, and I need to reapproach this problem asking a very different question, which is not what does the Bible say about me, but instead when people who are insecure in the Bible bring their insecurities to God, what does he actually say to them? Because that is a very different answer.
SHARON:
And so that's what I started doing, was looking at different people in the Bible who brought their insecurities to God. And just for the sake of time, I'm not gonna go through all the examples that I looked at during that journey, but one that really stood out to me and really impacted me was Moses.
SHARON:
So there's this, this scene in Exodus 4 after God has called Moses to go to Pharaoh and tell Pharaoh to set his people free, because for the last 400 years, the Israelites had been enslaved in Egypt, and they'd been crying out to God to deliver them, and God heard their cry. And so God goes to Moses and He says, "I want you to go to Pharaoh and I want you to tell him, 'It is time to let my people go.'"
SHARON:
And Moses thinks that this is a really terrible idea. In Exodus 4:10, he objects to this idea. He says, "Pardon your servant, Lord, I have never been eloquent, neither in the past nor since you have spoken to your servant. I am slow of speech and tongue." And so w- we don't know what Moses is referring to here. We don't know if, if Moses had a speech impediment of some sort, but he, he is very much expressing his insecurity to God. He, He is saying, "You have made the wrong choice. I am not the man for the job. Like, I am, I am physically limited. I am not able to do this thing."
SHARON:
Now, here's what I think is really interesting before we get to God's response to Moses, is to do a little thought experiment and ask if Moses was your friend and Moses came to you and said, "I have been called by God to do this thing, and I don't think I am capable of doing it. I, I don't think I have the capacity, I don't think I have the ability, it doesn't make any sense why God would call me," what would you say to Moses?
SHARON:
Because I know what I would say. And this is kind of the self-esteem response, is to say, "Moses- You absolutely are the man for this job. In fact, of all the people in Israel, you are the best choice because you were raised in a palace. You were groomed to be a leader. You understand how to talk to Pharaoh because you used to live with him. And so of all the people who are qualified to th- do this job, you actually are the most qualified.
SHARON:
That is probably what I would have said to Moses. However, that is not what God said. Instead, it says, "The Lord said to him, 'Who gave human beings their mouths? Who makes them deaf or mute? Who gives them sight or makes them blind? Is it not I, the Lord? Now, go. I will help you speak and will teach you what to say.'"
SHARON:
I really love, in her book Women of the Word, Jen Wilkin describes this interaction as God changing the subject off of Moses' inability and onto God's ability, because in this moment, Moses i- is saying, "I can't do this", and God is responding to him and saying, "I know. I was never expecting you to."
SHARON:
And this opened my eyes to see over and over again, we see it with Jeremiah, we see it with Elijah, w- we see so many different leaders who brought their insecurities to God. And rather than God be their personal hype guy, rather than God talk about their gifts or their potential, God says to every single one, "This was never about you. This did not rise and fall on you. I will do this thing. Therefore, do not fear."
SHARON:
And so what this journey ultimately opened my eyes to is that whenever we are talking about the causes of insecurity- There are really two causes of insecurity, but we only ever talk about one. The, the self-esteem movement only ever talks about one, and that is low self-esteem, which I would define as not seeing yourself truthfully, not seeing yourself the way that God sees you. And that is a real source of pain. It very often comes from wounds from our past or lies that have been spoken over us, and God's Word and the gospel of Jesus absolutely speak to that source of insecurity.
SHARON:
However, what this journey taught me is that there is a second cause of insecurity that we almost never talk about, and that is self-preoccupation, that when we make things about us that are not about us, it raises the stakes incredibly high for us because it turns everything into a referendum on our value and our worth.
SHARON:
And what's really interesting, one of the things that I realized for me, is that I was struggling with the second one. I, I was struggling with self-preoccupation. I had made something about me that was never meant to be about me, and that's why it was paralyzing me. I, I was treating it all as if it was this referendum on my, on my value, on my worth, and that's, that's why I could never enjoy it anymore.
SHARON:
But, but the kicker here, and the reason why this distinction matters so much, is if you are... If you only have one solution for insecurity, which is affirmation, affirmation, affirmation, I need to just speak truth over me, even if it's good, biblical truth. If that's the only answer that you're given for insecurity, when the cause of your insecurity is not low self-esteem, but self-preoccupation, then what you're doing, even when you're speaking that truth over yourself, is you are reinforcing the problem rather than correcting it.
SHARON:
And the truth of the matter was, for me personally, my self-esteem was, was fine. I, I didn't struggle with my purpose. I didn't struggle with my- My sense of love from God. I did not struggle with any of those things. The source of my pain, the source of my insecurity was that I had lost focus. I had made things about me that were not about me.
SHARON:
And so ever since that, I, I've really felt this calling to, to share these two sources of insecurity because for so many women, we are making things heavy. We are making things hard. We are turning things into burdens because we are making them about ourselves.
SHARON:
And just w- one example where this plays out, especially for women, is as mothers. Like, we, we think that we have to do everything. We have to show up. We have to hold up our family. We have to be this perfect mother, and it is crushing so many women. And one of the things that I often tell women is, "You do not have to be a perfect parent because your kids already have a perfect parent. Your job is simply to point to Him." And the grace of that, the gift of that, the freedom of that is it allows you to be exactly what you are, which is human and limited and broken. And so when you fail, it's okay because it was never about winning your children to yourself, but pointing them ultimately to their Savior.
SHARON:
When you fail, you can say, "Hey, you know what? Mommy, mommy made a mistake. I lost my temper. But do you know who never does that? Do you know who never loses their temper with you? Do you know who is always patient with you, who always says the right thing? That is Jesus." And so whenever we make anything, whether it's motherhood or, or ministry about us, it becomes so much heavier than it was ever meant to be.
SHARON:
And so for anyone who, who needs that reminder, I, I do, and, and I wanna be very, very clear that for some of you, your insecurity is about wounds, it's about lies. But I also wanna challenge some of you to just listen to the Holy Spirit because for some of you, I bet you're, you're feeling this conviction that, and, and keep in mind, the Holy Spirit does not condemn. He, He convicts, and so conviction, it comes with power to change. So any condemnation, that is not from the Holy Spirit.
SHARON:
But if you're just feeling that conviction that I, there's something in my life that I've, I've made it heavier, I've made it harder, I, I, I've created insecurity in my life because I've made something about me that is not about me. It is about Jesus, and that there is great freedom when we live a life that is fundamentally oriented toward Him.
SHARON:
And so on that note, I would actually love to, to pray for any of you who are, are feeling that, that Holy Spirit conviction right now.
SHARON:
Loving Father, we, we thank you that you created us to live for a mission, a purpose that is much higher than ourselves, and that we are at our freest when we are living for that purpose. Lord, help us to see the areas of our lives where we have created insecurity for ourselves, where the, the yoke is heavy, unnecessarily heavy, because we have forgotten its ultimate goal.
SHARON:
That everything in our life is meant to point to you and not ourselves, and that every time we stumble, every time we make a mistake, even when it feels humbling, humiliating even, that is just an opportunity to recalibrate our entire orientation and point everything in our lives back to you. For anyone who needs that reminder, I pray that, that your Holy Spirit would convict and empower in great kindness and gentleness, because it is your kindness that leads us to repentance.
SHARON:
We thank you that that is who you are and how you are to us. And so it's in your name that we pray, amen.
CAILAH:
Mm. Amen.
KALEY:
Amen. That was so good.
CAILAH:
It really was.
KALEY:
It was like a, it was like a, a lecture in the best way that I needed to have, Sharon.
SHARON:
Aw.
KALEY:
And I think, I think you hit the nail on the head when you talked about the two causes of insecurity.
CAILAH:
Yeah.
KALEY:
It's not just low self-esteem, but it's also self-preoccupation.
CAILAH:
Mm.
KALEY:
And I remember part of your teaching, you, you talked about Moses and, like, what we would say to Moses-
SHARON:
I did ...
KALEY:
but then you looked at what God said to Moses.
CAILAH:
Yeah.
KALEY:
And I think I just think there's this challenge in how much I so easily go, or Cailah, I don't know if you feel this way, too.
CAILAH:
Oof, yes.
KALEY:
But, like, y- you go to somebody who you know-
CAILAH:
Yeah
KALEY:
is gonna be a hype type of person.
CAILAH:
Right.
SHARON:
Uh-huh
KALEY:
Actually, I go to a Cailah type of person, because for those of you- ... who know, Cailah's your hype girl. Like, you feel good, like you-
CAILAH:
Mm
KALEY:
wanna get around people that you feel good around, but that's-
CAILAH:
Yeah
KALEY:
only so helpful.
CAILAH:
Right.
KALEY:
And people are never-
SHARON:
Mm-hmm
KALEY:
gonna have the words that God is gonna have, unless the words you say back to somebody are I think that you need to go get in God's word.
CAILAH:
Right.
SHARON:
Yeah.
KALEY:
You probably don't need to hear from me right now.
SHARON:
Yeah. Yeah.
KALEY:
But Sharon, I have a question.
SHARON:
Mm. Mm-hmm.
KALEY:
And I think I can ask you this because you have your PhD, and you legitimately know this. Or maybe I'm putting you on the spot, but I think I appreciated everything you said-
CAILAH:
Yeah
KALEY:
about insecurity and it being
SHARON:
Mm-hmm
KALEY:
this massive weight that people feel.
CAILAH:
Right.
KALEY:
And in conversations, even between me and my husband or me and some friends who, you just get in seasons where you're just like, "Oh, this is heavy."
CAILAH:
Right.
KALEY:
And it could be-
SHARON:
Mm. Mm-hmm
KALEY:
because you, it- because it is you, but I also have a question about-
CALAIH:
Right
KALEY:
the enemy here.
SHARON:
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
KALEY:
And I don't want to give him more credit than credit is due-
CAILAH:
Right.
SHARON:
Mm-hmm
KALEY:
... but where do you find kind of on the spectrum of, like, is this just, like, a tactic the enemy uses?
CAILAH:
Mm-hmm.
SHARON:
Mm-hmm.
KALEY:
What would you call maybe warfare in, like-
SHARON:
Mm-hmm
KALEY:
in someone's mind? Or can you speak to that, like the person who's wondering, like, "Am I under attack right now?"
CAILAH:
Right.
KALEY:
"Or am I just making
SHARON:
Mm-hmm
KALEY:
this about me?"
CAILAH:
Right.
KALEY:
'Cause they're two very different extremes.
SHARON:
Yeah.
CAILAH:
Right.
SHARON:
Mm-hmm. Yeah. That is such a great question, especially because I sort of, th- those two causes of insecurity, low self-esteem and self-preoccupation, I sort of painted them as separate, but they-
KALEY & CAILAH:
Mm-hmm
SHARON:
they actually overlap a lot.
KALEY:
Mm-hmm.
SHARON:
That low self-esteem can lead to self-preoccupation.
KALEY:
Mm-hmm.
SHARON:
And let me, let me give you an example of what I mean. Like, one of the easiest ways to understand this is actually, like, our physical bodies.
CAILAH:
Yeah.
KALEY:
Mm-hmm.
SHARON:
So when you, say that you walk outside, and you trip on the curb, and you sprain your ankle You are going to give all of your focus to that ankle. You are going to-
CAILAH:
Right
SHARON:
go to the doctor. You are going to take pain medication. You are maybe gonna get crutches. You're gonna change the way that you walk, the way that you sit. Everything is gonna change to, to focus on taking care of this angle, an- ankle, and that is the way that that pain works by design.
CAILAH:
Right.
SHARON:
That, that God has cau- He, we focus on our pain so that we can heal our pain.
KALEY:
Yeah.
SHARON:
And so one of the things that I, I try to pay attention to, especially when someone comes to our church, and I'm noticing
CAILAH:
Mm-hmm
SHARON:
this insecurity that's sort of close to the surface
KALEY:
Mm-hmm
SHARON:
is asking, is this actually pointing, like is, is their self-focus-
CAILAH:
Right.
KALEY:
Mm-hmm
SHARON:
actually pointing to a pain, like a pain point that actually-
CAILAH:
That's good
SHARON:
needs to be healed? And so I, I think that-
KALEY:
Mm
SHARON:
it's important to ask that question.
KALEY:
Mm.
SHARON:
If, if you are struggling with self-focus, if, if you're realizing
CAILAH:
Mm-hmm
SHARON:
I walk into a room, like w- like just to give you another example, ways that I see this play out as a pastor with people in our church is- Someone who's new will come to an event, and if they are walking into a room and the question they're asking is, "Why isn't anyone talking to me? Um, I don't feel included here. I feel-
CAILAH:
Right
SHARON:
left out." Y- like, it's a very me, me, me kind of focus. That self-focus is very often pointing to a point of pain, like a way that they have been wounded. And-
CAILAH:
Right
SHARON:
in fact, there have been studies that show people who struggle with depression use I and me language at a much higher frequency.
KALEY & CAILAH:
Mm.
SHARON:
And so that, that self-focused language is very often pointing to an unhealed wound.
CAILAH:
Right.
SHARON:
But I know for me, and so just to pay attention to it, the, if I'm using a lot of I, if I'm using a lot of me language to-
KALEY:
Mm-hmm
SHARON:
that doesn't necessarily mean, like, you are a narcissist.
CAILAH:
Right.
SHARON:
Sometimes that is pointing to a pain that Jesus needs to heal.
CAILAH:
Right.
SHARON:
Or a lie that Jesus needs to correct. But for me, there were also times I realized I'm fine. I'm just being self-focused.
KALEY:
Yeah.
SHARON:
I've j- I've just forgotten that this, this is not about me.
KALEY:
Yeah.
SHARON:
I'm, I'm turning this into an extension of my ego, an extension of my pride.
KALEY:
Mm-hmm.
SHARON:
And so to, to do that discernment, and I, I find that it is really important, 'cause you mentioned having your, your hype girls.
CAILAH:
Right.
SHARON:
And that is important.
KALEY:
Mm-hmm.
SHARON:
Like, this discernment is best done in community.
CAILAH:
Right.
SHARON:
Because I can tell you, the one way the enemy is going to lie to you is in isolation.
KALEY:
Yeah.
CAILAH:
Yeah. That’s good
SHARON:
And so I would say, like, don't do this work alone.
KALEY:
Mm-hmm.
SHARON:
Do it with other women who love Jesus and know his word and you know to be wise.
KALEY:
Mm, so good.
CAILAH:
So good. Honestly, I loved everything that you had to say there.
KALEY:
Yeah.
CAILAH:
But I think there's this tenderness that comes with
KALEY:
Mm
CAILAH:
just leaning in and recognizing that there's, there's sometimes things that are happening beneath the surface
KALEY:
Mm-hmm,
SHARON:
right ...
CAILAH:
that only God can touch-
KALEY:
Mm-hmm
CAILAH:
and only God can heal.
KALEY:
Mm-hmm.
CAILAH:
And so I wanted to ask you, Sharon, um, is there a small way that you could teach us to help shift our eyes off of ourselves today?
KALEY:
Yeah.
CAILAH:
Maybe off of that pain that we're experiencing, or just-
SHARON:
Mm-hmm
CAILAH:
uh, off of our situations that we might be facing and back
SHARON:
Mm-hmm
CAILAH:
onto the face of Jesus today?
SHARON:
Mm-hmm.
KALEY:
That's good.
SHARON:
Yeah. Yeah. You know, one of the things that I've really learned to be curious about is my, my insecurity, and-
CAILAH:
Mm-hmm
SHARON:
and to ask the question, what information does this have to give me? What-
CAILAH:
Mm
SHARON:
what is it telling me about myself? Because very often, if I am feeling insecure- It is because I am standing on something insecure.
CAILAH:
Mm.
SHARON:
Because what we know-
CAILAH:
That's good
SHARON:
is if we stand on Jesus-
CAILAH:
That's really good. Whoo
SHARON:
is that Jesus doesn't shake.
CAILAH:
Yeah
SHARON:
And so for me, whenever I am feeling insecure, is to just trace that all the way down to the foundation and, and ask what, what shifting sand is this pointing to? What, what am I standing on for security, for value, for my sense of confidence or, or worth that is shaking right now?
KALEY:
Mm-hmm.
SHARON:
So that I can remember that my identity, my value, my worth does not come from that thing, it comes from Jesus. And that has always been a, a very worthwhile exercise for me.
CAILAH:
That is so helpful.
KALEY:
That is.
CAILAH:
Wow. That is. That just rocked my world-
KALEY:
I know.
CAILAH:
in so many ways. Kaley and I both looked at each other and we were like, "Did she just say that?"
KALEY:
Processing in real time.
CAILAH:
Wow.
KALEY:
Feeling insecure often means you're standing on something insecure.
CAILAIH:
Wow.
KALEY:
So there it is.
CAILAH:
That was a Holy Spirit word for me today.
KALEY:
Yeah, but so good and so practical.
CAILAH:
Yes.
KALEY:
Because I feel like, well, part of being human, unfortunately-
CAILAH:
Right
KALEY:
sometimes means that insecurity switch is flipped, and it's either voluntary or in.. Like so we're, we're never gonna be fully healed on this side-
CAILAH:
Right
KALEY:
of heaven. Like, we're just not.
SHARON:
Mm-hmm.
KALEY:
We- that happens in heaven, and I think sometimes too-
CAILAH:
Yeah
KALEY:
the Lord can, the Lord, not sometimes, the Lord does, he can and will use-
CAILAH:
Right
KALEY:
things and unfortunately, but fortunately for our sake, insecurity is one of those things-
CAILAH:
Yeah
KALEY:
that does point us back to him.
CAILAH:
Mm-hmm.
KALEY:
But I love, Sharon, at the beginning, Cailah mentioned, like you've done a lot of deep-
CAILAH:
Right ...
KALEY:
work on this subject.
SHARON:
Mm-hmm.
KALEY:
And you walked us through that journey, and you mentioned a couple-
SHARON:
Mm-hmm
KALEY:
of books while we were talking offline, um, a book called Free to Be, Free of Me, and then another-
SHARON:
Mm-hmm
KALEY:
devotional you've written. And so I would love for you to tell our listeners a little bit about those resources-
CAILAH:
Yeah
KALEY:
um, and how they could help them.
SHARON:
Yeah, so the journey that I just walked through led to my very first book, it's called Free of Me: Why Life Is Better When It's Not About You. And I get more into just what I learned through that journey and what set me free, and it's amazing, 'cause I wrote that book years ago now, and I'm still walking out those truths.
SHARON:
It's still just a regular source of freedom for me. And then just this past year, I wrote a follow-up devotional, a 40-day devotional called Gazing at God: A 40-Day Journey to Greater Freedom From Self. And that was, I decided to write it because I realized there was more that I had to say on-
CAILAH:
Yeah
SHARON:
this topic. And, and some of what I get into actually in the devotional is more, I talked about when a self is wounded, how just important it is to name that-
CAILAH:
Mm
SHARON:
and to understand it. And so this devotional gets into that topic, but also does not leave you there.
CAILAH:
Wow.
SHARON:
Because we were not created to live for ourselves.
CAILAH:
No.
SHARON:
We were created to live for God, but we are created to live for God healed.
KALEY:
Mm-hmm.
SHARON:
And so Gazing at God is that very holistic journey and a follow-up to Free Is Me.
KALEY:
Yeah. That's amazing. And I think, too, Sharon, I like that you said-
CAILAH:
Mm-hmm
KALEY:
"I had more to say", but I also think-
CAILAH:
Yes
KALEY:
that's translated as you wrote your first book eight years ago, and you've lived eight years of life
CAILAH:
Right
KALEY:
in between then. Of course you have more to say.
SHARON:
Exactly.
KALEY:
'Cause you're a different version of yourself. So friends, we're gonna link both of those resources for you in the show notes below. And then one last thing, just a last tiny little thing- ... that's not a tiny little thing at all. Sharon is gonna be coming to our annual She Speaks conference happening this July, July 16th through 18th, in Charlotte, North Carolina.
KALEY:
And friends, we want you to be a part of it. I think today's teaching was perfect.
CAILAH:
Yes, honestly.
KALEY:
So perfectly in alignment with our vision for She Speaks-
CAILAH:
Mm-hmm
KALEY:
which is to equip you. And one of the reasons women can feel insecure
CAILAH:
Right
KALEY:
is because they try to go after their calling alone
CAILAH:
Right
KALEY:
to share the message that
CAILAH:
Yeah
KALEY:
the story that God has given them. They try to do it alone, and they think that it's not significant enough.
CAILAH:
Right.
KALEY:
Two areas that I feel like, uh, just scream insecurity. So there's no reason to be insecure-
CAILAH:
No
KALEY:
about coming to She Speaks 'cause you get to be with, like, 600 other women who are-
CAILAH:
No
KALEY:
right there in the trenches with you.
CAILAH:
We've literally saved you a seat.
KALEY:
And it's the best, it's the best three days ever. Honestly. And Sharon's gonna be there. She's speaking on Thursday.
CAILAH:
Yes.
KALEY:
Right? Gonna be a great day, like, full of so many speakers. Sharon's gonna be there.
CAILAH:
Lysa.
KALEY:
Lysa. Joel.
CAILAH:
Joel. Yeah.
KALEY:
Cailah's gonna be there.
CAILAH:
I'll be there.
KALEY:
In some capacity. A lot of us are gonna be there. But I think at the beginning, uh, Sharon, I remember whenever you said, "I got to travel with Lysa, and I got-
CAILAH:
Mm-hmm
KALEY:
to be kind of like an intern for her and learn." Like, one person can have that opportunity, but you know what? A lot of people can come to She Speaks
CAILAH:
Right
KALEY:
and still get that wisdom that you got to sit under with Lysa. You just do it in a room with a lot of other women. So- ... go to shespeaksconference.com to find out more about registration. But hurry, those tickets are selling fast.
CAILAH:
When I tell you this has been just such an incredible conversation. Yeah. I'm so grateful.
KALEY:
Me too.
CAILAH:
And that's all we had for you today, friends.
KALEY:
Thank you, Sharon.
CAILAH:
Thank you, Sharon. We had such a great time talking to you. And at Proverbs 31 Ministries, we believe that
when you know the truth and live the truth, it changes everything.