Defining Hospitality

This week, Dan Ryan sits down with Genna Panagopoulos, Vice President of Development at Minor Hotels, to make the case that the most exciting real estate play in hospitality right now isn't in Asia or Europe, it's right here in America. A restaurant kid from Detroit who fell in love with hotels, Genna is the one handed the keys to a 640 property global giant's entire North American future, armed with 12 brands, a freshly built franchise model, and a philosophy that deals only work when everyone at the table wins. One NH Collection in Manhattan down. Twenty four more to go.

About the Guest: 
Genna Panagopoulos, VP of Development at Minor Hotels, a Greek American, raised in the restaurant business by an immigrant father who treated every customer like family, who somehow ended up being the person responsible for introducing one of the world's largest hotel companies to the United States. With over 15 years spanning hotel investment, brand strategy, and development at the likes of Davidson Hotels and IHG, Genna isn't just opening doors in new markets. She's the one deciding which doors are worth knocking on in the first place.

Chapters:
00:35 Meet Genna Panagopoulos
02:10 Greek Roots and Philoxenia
05:43 From Restaurants to Hotels
07:03 Minor Brands and Luxury Resorts
09:50 US Growth Model and Deal Flexibility
12:02 Target Markets and Investor Mindset
15:13 Financing and Conversion Strategy
20:12 Service Culture and Scaling Luxury
27:26 Uniqueness Over Scale
28:50 Early Growth Bottlenecks
29:30 Portfolio Deals and Marketing
30:30 New Brand or Collections
32:11 Lessons From US Expansion
34:10 Where Deals Are Happening
36:09 Choosing the Right Partners
38:58 Deal Terms and Key Money
42:48 Future Vision and Wrap Up

Quote of the Show:
“We're not here to make money right now. We're here to plant our flags and build brand awareness." - Genna Panagopoulos

Building a hotel, brand, or guest experience? Reach out to Dan on LinkedIn or hit reply on the Substack to share what you’re working on.

Minor Hotels is introducing the legendary Anantara and Wolseley brands to North America: learn more about the company's strategy and ambitions!!

Links:
🏨✨ Defining Hospitality is Sponsored by Berman Falk https://www.bermanfalk.com/ - Check out their impact page! 🌍🌱 https://www.bermanfalk.com/impact/ 

Ways to Tune In: 

Creators and Guests

Host
Dan Ryan
Host of Defining Hospitality
Producer
Serena Johnson

What is Defining Hospitality?

Welcome to Defining Hospitality, the podcast focused on highlighting the most influential figures in the hospitality industry. In each episode we provide 1 on 1, in depth interviews with experts in the industry to learn what hospitality means to them. We feature expert advice on working in the industry, behind the scenes looks at some of your favorite brands, and in depth explorations of unique hospitality projects.

Defining Hospitality is hosted by Founder and CEO of Agency 967, Dan Ryan. With over 30 years of experience in hospitality, Dan brings his expertise and passion to each episode as he delves into the latest trends and challenges facing the industry.

Episodes are released every week on Wednesday mornings.

To listen to episodes, visit https://www.defininghospitality.live/ or subscribe to Defining Hospitality wherever you get your podcasts.

DH - Genna Panagopoulos
===

[00:00:00] What I do is inconsequential. Why I do what I do is I get to shorten people's journeys every day. What I love about our hospitality industry is that it's our mission to make people feel cared for while on their journeys. Together, we'll explore what hospitality means in the built environment, in business, and in our daily lives.

I'm Dan Ryan, and this is Defining Hospitality.

This podcast is sponsored by Berman Falk Hospitality Group, a design-driven furniture manufacturer who specializes in custom case goods and seating for hotel guest rooms

Dan Ryan: Today's guest is a lead developer, brand strategist, investment expert, and seasoned hospitality innovator.

With over 15 years of experience, she has built and led high-performing teams across hotel investment and development. She specializes in strategic brand development and long-term growth within our hospitality industry. Her experience includes working with industry leaders such as Davidson Hotels and IHG Hotels & [00:01:00] Resorts.

She is the vice president of development at Minor Hotels, leading their development initiatives across the US and Canada. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome Genna Panagopoulos. Welcome, Genna.

Genna Panagopoulos: Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Dan Ryan: I'm so glad to have you here because I remember, although full disclosure, I didn't work on the NH Hotel, um, which you are sitting in right now.

So if you're watching on YouTube, the room looks awesome. But I watched that develop. I had friends that were working on it, and what's wild to me is from a strategy perspective, Minor Hotels has hotels all over the world, including parts of North America, but that is your first one in the United States.

And with such a huge portfolio behind you, it seems to me like you have this blue sky opportunity within the United States, so I'm very curious about how you approach such an incredible opportunity. [00:02:00] Um, but before we get into that, I gotta ask, like I ask every single guest, what does hospitality mean to you?

How did you get drawn into here, and what's keeping you here?

Genna Panagopoulos: So I grew up in the hospitality industry. I grew up in the restaurant business. You can tell from my last name, that is not easy to pronounce.

Dan Ryan: I got it, though.

Genna Panagopoulos: did, you nailed it. You nailed it.

Dan Ryan: Efharisto

Genna Panagopoulos: I grew up in the restaurant industry. My dad was an immigrant.

He came very quintessential immigrant story, came with a couple dollars in his pocket, started working for a Greek guy, uh, in Greektown Detroit, and ended up building his own kind of couple of restaurants over, over his lifetime. and so my brothers, I've got two brothers, we, we all grew up working in that restaurant.

I was probably mixing, um, from a, a very, very early age. Um, but it was great, and it was, uh... Ended up becoming very well-known, in fact. Um, so yeah, I, I live and breathe hospitality and always have, and even though my [00:03:00] mom, she stayed at home, we all kind of have this, um, hospitality built into our, our lives and how we treat other people.

And so, you know, growing up, uh, we'd be sitting at the dinner table or doing homework, and there'd be a knock on the door and, um, it'd be a neighbor or a friend and everybody always knew you could, you could knock on our door at any point. My mom would welcome you in, give you a cup of coffee and coffee cake, and my dad actually treated his restaurants.

It was like his personal home almost. And it was-- His main one was, was actually quite large. It had, I think, 500 seats,

Dan Ryan: Wow.

Genna Panagopoulos: different floors, all marble, if you can imagine that. just beautiful. And I always think back to it, like if somebody walked in, they were the... He was the first face that they would see, and the VIPs would get, you know, the, the red carpet.

Um, he'd put out a white tablecloth. He'd put them in the front of the, um, of the [00:04:00] restaurant, so they had beautiful views, and he really just treated everybody like family. So we still do that today. Um, there's this, there's a word in Greek called philoxenia, which is the love of strangers. Um, and that's just, that's how we live and breathe it.

It's, it's... I raise my kids that way too, that, that our homes are, an extension of us and people are always welcome and we should, you know, treat them with respect, whether they're friends, family, or, or strangers.

Dan Ryan: I love reading all of the stories and of Greek antiquity and that idea of xenia or philoxenia comes through and there's, um, a definite honor code when it comes to admitting strangers into your home. And it's something that I think is pervasive from pr- probably even before that, um, but it's something that we just can't get rid of, and I don't wanna get rid of it, and I'm glad that you bring that up.

How has your early experience of working in [00:05:00] that, in, in your dad's restaurant, how has that kept pr- kept you, like, stuck in what we do, and what do you find so exciting about what you do every day as far as making the, really Not even making these come to life because you are, but it's really more about having this blue sky opportunity for Minor Hotels.

I mean, you're a huge global brand, but you don't have any f-- Well, you have one flag planted in the United States. So that must be like, what is that saying from, uh, Spider-Man, where with great power comes great responsibility, right? You have this unbelievable blue sky opportunity, and it mu- that must be like awe-inspiring but also nerve-wracking at the same time.

Genna Panagopoulos: Um, no, it's super exciting and energizing. I mean, I wanna be-- I love the industry. I've always loved the industry. I studied, I studied hospitality thinking I'd go into my father's business and ended up falling in love with hotels. Um, and even more so, you know, specifically I studied like the real estate development [00:06:00] piece, um, because I think it's one, one thing to be kind of on the front line, but to help establish what a hotel is and seeing how many, um, employees that, you know, you're, you're giving livelihood to, and even, even before the hotels develop, you know, the construction workers and how many people it impacts, it's really impactful. Um, so I love being part of that and, you know, as it relates to Minor and, and yes, the blue skies we have here in the US and Canada, it's exciting to be part of creating what Minor is here, right? Um, all of our brands are really, um... There's so much flexibility in a good way with them because we understand the importance of localizing experiences. so I think being part of th- and driving this chapter for them in the US is, is-- it's so exhilarating because we're defining what it is here and the trajectory of the brand and the parent company, in the region.

Dan Ryan: And your first hotel is [00:07:00] the NH Collection in New York City, like I said, where you're sitting now. And then as you look at this blue sky, what is the palette of hotel brands that you're working with as you look at this market and then the markets within the markets, and then the markets within those markets?

Genna Panagopoulos: Well, we have 12 different brands. So we have hotel brands for most markets, I would say. Um, where we're really focusing in this early period is the luxury space and especially luxury resorts. So my first day at the company, um, said, "We're really excited about some of these, you know, high-rated leisure destinations that you guys have in the US, kind of in the middle of the country." was a shock to me because I was expecting them to say, "Let's go find deals in New York and Miami," which, um, we have already done that. Um, but they really, they really excel, and they have such a great portfolio of these resorts that are hyper-experiential. think elephants wandering, you know, and, and a whole d- [00:08:00] new iteration of glamping. Um, we have this beautiful property in, in Thailand. It's called the Anantara Golden Triangle, and we have, we have these jungle bubbles. You can look it up. It's amazing. Um, and, and guests can sleep, they can dine, and all along they're watching, uh, elephants in their natural habitat. So, um, we don't have elephants here in the US, obviously but, but we're really excited to kind of see what ki- what, what markets we can, we can land in in this hyper-experiential, uh, luxury space.

Dan Ryan: Yeah. And, uh, and how many properties do you all have globally? It's over 500, correct?

Genna Panagopoulos: Over 500. When you include our pipeline, we're over 640.

Dan Ryan: Oh, wow.

Genna Panagopoulos: a lot. We have a lot of hotels.

Wow.

Know that.

Dan Ryan: As you're speaking with your team and your colleagues, what are some of the... Like, thinking about how you have this golden opportunity in North [00:09:00] America and Canada and the US in particular, how do you approach these? Because you have your first pla- flag in New York City, how do you weight these choices or make these decisions about what's next?

Because again, I keep thinking about, like, you know, when I first moved to New York City, I went to this great butcher and I got a barbecue and, and I went to him and I got these ribeye steaks. And I remember asking him, it was Jeffrey's in the Essex Street Market, and they're closed now. I think, I don't know what they're doing with it.

But I said, "Okay, so I got this thing. How should I prepare it?" And he goes, "A little salt, a little pepper. Don't F it up." So,

Yeah.

You know, with that,

So

how do you guys address all of these? What's your internal communication and, and how do you manage the opportunity but also balance that with the risk?

Genna Panagopoulos: thinking about how we're gonna grow here in the US. So we obviously bought this hotel that I'm sitting in right now Um, we own it fully. That's not [00:10:00] necessarily the strategy moving forward. It was the, the first step of one, um, to get us, you know, uh, into the landscape in North America. So moving forward, we're looking at going a little bit more, we like to say asset right, not asset light, but it is a little bit more asset light because, um, we introduced a franchise model.

We're looking to grow mostly with management agreements. Um, we will invest on the right opportunities that are super strategic for us, but we're not developing using our o- you know, solely our, our balance sheet. So it's a little bit of a different, uh, model moving forward than what, what we did to, to get this, this property. Um, but like you said, we're being super flexible. Like we've got lots of creativity when it comes to deals, so there's a lot of, um... You know, having worked for, for major brand companies, there's lots of things that they're not comfortable with that we can wrap our heads around because we're not afraid to own real estate.

Hmm. Hmm.

You know, we're-- I think globally [00:11:00] we're somewhere between 80% and 85%, uh, either leased or owned, right? So actually moving into the asset light and moving into the franchise space is, is newer for us, whereas everybody else has, has been there for a while.

Dan Ryan: So you, you own or lease the vast majority of your properties, and that seems to be opposite what most other large hotel brand comp-- hotel brands do, right? Because it's just e-each, whether you're owning the property as a, as a REIT or an investment group or an LLC or versus creating a brand or in your case many brands, um, it just capital likes to find the most efficient place for whatever the task at hand is.

So as you survey North America, which is enormous and has so many different options, how do you determine which one is right for like a new brand that might not be there or an existing one that might have a bit more brand recognition in the US? [00:12:00] I just find that fascinating.

Genna Panagopoulos: Well, we've created kind of our target markets, if you will, and we have them tiered as well. So our first tier of target markets are really any of the international feeder markets or gateway markets. So- The New Yorks, the Miamis, the DC, Boston, LA, San Francisco, right? Those are kind of

And that's not all of them, but, um, those are kind of like the tier one. Plus, this always does surprise people, plus those high-rated leisure destinations. So think, you know, Montana and Wyoming and Hudson Valley. Um, those, those are also our, our most strategic markets that we're looking at. So we're focusing on sourcing and looking at opportunities in those markets. uh, separate from that, if somebody were to come to me and say, "Hey Genna, I've got this deal in Atlanta, would you, would you consider it?" Yes, we would considered it-- consider it. It's obviously a great market here in the US. Um, it's just, you know, where we have to, we have to be very strategic of where we spend our time, so we've kind of bifurcated that, that [00:13:00] growth strategy and the target strategy.

Dan Ryan: having pretty much conquered the globe and you being, I don't know how big your North American team is, but you being an American in the North American team, how do-- I don't know, it just seems like such an unusual, almost alien place to come to here with that in mind. So what's the barrier to entry that you're finding internally or externally as you look at all these different markets?

Genna Panagopoulos: if I take a step back and I think about US investors, they really like what they know, right? The, the, the US investor profile is a little bit different from the rest of the world. The rest of the world, a lot of times people want trophy assets, right? And that's ... They just want... You know, they're from a certain, a certain city, and they wanna own the best hotel in that city.

It doesn't matter, you know, what it takes. That's not necessarily how US investors think. They're a lot more strategic and pragmatic and, um, you know, they wanna own it and they wanna recycle it a lot of [00:14:00] times. So, um, it's, it's really about finding the right match of the market, the right owner, the right brand, um, and seeing if we can help them solve for something that they're looking for.

So, like I said, we're, we're focusing a lot on luxury, and the higher up in luxury you go, the more exclusive, um, obviously. Uh, and we have great brands for that. So as I'm talking to groups, they actually all know Anantara because they've traveled throughout Asia or Europe and stayed at some of our really remarkable properties.

So they're very excited about bringing that brand here and to be, you know, the ones to help define what Anantara is here in the US. on the flip side, we have newer brands. Um, and if, if, you know, in the more franchise space, whether that's more upscale or upper upscale, um, they might not have heard of Minor before.

And so it's really ... There's a lot of, uh, education that I have to do, upfront to say, "This is who Minor is. We have six, you know, 640 hotels [00:15:00] worldwide." And then they say, "Oh my God, I had no idea you were so big. Tell me more." Right?

Dan Ryan: Yeah, it's wild, right?

Genna Panagopoulos: wild. But then when you think about who we can compete with here in the franchise landscape, we have really strong brands here in the US.

Dan Ryan: one thing I know you keep talking about the investors, and I-- there are a lot of investors. There's a ton of capital looking to invest into hospitality or real estate in general, hospitality specifically. But one of the things I hear, and I'm not-- you are not an independent hotel brand. You're global.

You have how many, how many flags again?

Genna Panagopoulos: 12.

Dan Ryan: banks are a different thing, like so on the debt side. So one of the things in talking to independent hotel developers and owners and operators, um, one of the challenges they have is securing financing because they're independent. They're not attached to a larger flag or a larger brand like a Marriott, a Hilton, Accor.

Um, you guys are [00:16:00] definitely in that realm with 640 plus properties. Are you finding any pushback as you, uh, on the deals that you're doing as you're trying to find... Are you put in that same sandbox as like independent hoteliers? Or are, are the, are the banks more sophisticated because they can see the whole globe?

Genna Panagopoulos: we haven't hit any pushback yet, but I'm anticipating that. And so we, we did a little bit of legwork because, because we are hotel owners and, and hold leases on so many properties, uh, we went to the banks that we already have established relationships with in Europe especially, that have offices here and said, "Hey, we wanna tell you about this strategy, our growth strategy." Um, that way when somebody does come to us with a deal and they say, "Okay, well now I gotta go find debt," uh, I have four or five different banks that I can say they already know who we are, they're comfortable with it. It's just a matter about, uh, just a matter of them getting to know you and the specific project.

Awesome.

Working on doing that legwork upfront.

Dan Ryan: Okay, and then [00:17:00] as you're sur- uh, surveying the, the, the individual markets and submarkets, are you finding, are, is your strategy more new build? Is it to reposition an existing hotel? Is it someone who's had or been with a flag and was maybe looking for a reason to renovate and re-flag? Like what, what are the bulk of your, if you were to do a heat map on those types of properties out there,

What does that heat map look like as far as who the ideal new entry into your system would be or, um, or a conversion?

Genna Panagopoulos: Yeah, it's, um... We'd be open to both.

Mm-hmm. Hmm.

Right now, I think just given the, the current landscape and, and tariff situation, new build is a little bit harder to come by. That doesn't mean we're actually... You know, we've got a couple of new builds that we're looking at, uh, but conversions are definitely more popular.

Uh, I'd say probably on the heat map, 90% of the deals we're looking at, um [00:18:00] And that's, you know, the great thing I think I mentioned earlier that our brands are very conversion-friendly, uh, so we have a lot of options for them. And, and you're right, there are some owners out there that have been with some of the major brands, and they're just kind of fed up.

Oh,

if I catch them at the right moment, in the right mood, they wanna have a conversation because, um, we certainly think, we think

and

an owner than we do a brand, right? So we're never gonna ask for a brand standard to be met if we wouldn't do it ourselves.

Dan Ryan: you've sat on the brand side and the owner side, so what, what are you, what's your big learning that you've had as you're having these conversations over this whole heat map? Like bringing your experience to where you are now, what's surprising you the most as you're having these conversations?

Genna Panagopoulos: I'm actually pleasantly surprised with how many people do know Minor, or they might not know Minor, but they know our, our brand. So Minor became a consumer-facing brand just in twenty twenty-five. So when people say, "I've never heard of Minor," I, I said, "Well, that's [00:19:00] because you wouldn't have unless you heard about it in the last twelve months," right? Um, but they have heard of NH Hotels, which was a brand that Minor bought a couple of years ago, um, out of Spain. They have heard of Anantara, which is one of the Minor legacy hotel brands. Um, and you know, the other day I was in Miami and met with somebody, and they had stayed at four or five different

Anantaras.

So I mean,

Dan Ryan: Wow.

Genna Panagopoulos: I would say that's the most pleasantly surprised. And, how consistently I'm hearing about people's exceptional experiences where they're just blown away with the level of service, um, that they experienced at Anantaras. And I'm not saying that that's, you know, that's true anecdotes from people that I've, I've spoken to.

'Cause I tell anybody, "If you go uh, you need me to put you in touch with the GM, I'm happy to, but you have to promise you will give me a full, uh, download afterwards. I wanna hear every bit and, um, a bunch of pictures." And, and everything I've received has been really nice. and, and [00:20:00] you know, their have been exceeded.

So I would say that's the most pleasant, uh, pleasantly... thing that I've been most pleasantly surprised about. I just didn't expect how many people would know some of these brands.

Dan Ryan: And then for like Anantara, I've never-- My, my wife and son stayed at one about a year ago in Thailand, and they were blown away and loved it. What I found is I've been blown away and loved hotels all over the world, and I find that sometimes whether in Southeast Asia or even Europe or Africa, I don't know, there's just a, there's a way and a, some way of that's wired in to make that guest experience just so different.

A, you're-- it's just different from what you're used to, right? And it's,

Sure.

In this whole different culture. Um, but I find that sometimes those brands that are overseas when they come into the US they're not able to delight as much from a service [00:21:00] perspective as they were in the countries where they were originally from.

And th- so I don't know if it's a misalignment or it's just not possible or just culturally different or we're just aliens here in the United States, which is could, could probably be true too. But like how do-- when you're having those conversations where there's that expectation or that fond memory, I'm not saying it's not possible here because obviously some places do do it really, really well.

But how do you help clarify all those blind spots that might be there or, or, I don't know, hopefully exceed whatever the expectations might

Genna Panagopoulos: I mean, I think a lot of it has to do with culture, right? Some, some cultures you go into and when you're training the staff, it's inherent. They want to take care of people, and it's very genuine. Uh, sometimes here in the US, they kind of throw your cup of coffee at you in the morning because it's a job to them, right?

So you're right. It is,

Dan Ryan: Or you have to go get your own

Genna Panagopoulos: " Well, you have to go get [00:22:00] your own."

Dan Ryan: and wait in line.

Genna Panagopoulos: so no, you're right. I, I do think luxury is different everywhere. Um, and I'm a firm believer that, that you have to be able to adjust to the market and, and deliver on what the market ex-expects. Now, there is a bit of a balance though, because if you're trying to be, a differentiator or disruptor in the market and provide something that's not there, obviously, you know, just killing it on, on service and then, you know, far exceeding somebody's expectations is important, and it's hard to do that in, in union environments, for example.

Hmm.

But you know, I think the operations teams have ways of, of training and, and, and really instilling pride and culture in the, in the operational teams to be able to deliver that. And so they're

part of... They feel like they're part of something much and more important than just thinking this is a job.

Dan Ryan: I had a past guest on and we talked about this idea of scalability or lack of scalability in [00:23:00] hospitality. And you kind of have to choose your lane, right? Are you being like an Anantara or a Four Seasons on that complete immersive really, like unbelievable service, or someone like an Extended Stay America where you're scaling back a lot.

Really you're just providing some longer term housing or, or hotel, and there's a lot less service. And if, if you stay on that line and all things in between, you're-- you go from, I don't know, like from being scalable to you try and do more than you can, and it becomes unscalable, whether it's geographic, you're trying to do too much or too little.

Um, as you look at this kind of blue sky option in North America or blue sky capabilities or, or optionality in North America, what-- There's got to be so many s- shiny objects, but how do you stay on your path [00:24:00] of, of scalability and really delivering what's right or what, what you're trying to convey trying to enter into this market?

How do you pi- how do you guys pick and choose?

Genna Panagopoulos: it's a combination of things, right? Um, a former, uh, one of my first managers, uh, out of college told me there's four different ways to look at a- an opportunity. It's the, it's the owner, it's the box, it's the brand, and it's the location, right? So it's, it-- we have to look at all of those and weigh those independently, and usually not all of them are an A++, right?

There's, there's somewhere where, you know, you're comp- you're, you're compensating and have to lift and depend on the other pieces to, to help the project overall. Um, you know, I think in terms of scalability, we're not trying to be a behemoth here, right? We want substantial growth, but it's substantial to us, maybe not, you know, other US brands in comparison. you know, our goal is to have somewhere between 20 and 25 hotels here in the [00:25:00] next five years, which is actually crazy ambitious. but that's, you know, that's just to give you a flavor of, of what we're looking at here. That's, that's what we're, what we're targeting.

Dan Ryan: that's pretty cool 'cause you have,

Yeah.

Have, you have such a track record in so many properties, I think that's admirable to say, "Hey, 20, 25..." It's a lot, but it's also being measured and, and being very careful.

Genna Panagopoulos: It's being careful, and I think it also gives, you know, owners that we're talking to, it gives them comfort that they're not gonna be, you know, one of five, right? They know that there's gonna be a group of them, that they'll have a voice and, um, it'll be a substantial enough number that, that there's visibility amongst our, our

global leaders, right?

So, um, then going back to scalability, you know, that's obviously a really... It's a very careful line you have to tow. I would say for Miners brands, the one thing that has surprised me looking back if I [00:26:00] think about how we've, how the, how the company has grown, you know, it started in Asia and then as they grew, they acquired brands in Europe out of Spain and Portugal.

And so how do you meld these two kind of cultures and very distinctive, um, you know, even distinctive landscapes like physical landscapes?

Mm.

Um, Asia tends to have a lot of new builds, whereas, uh, Europe, it's mostly conversion opportunities, right? So bringing that all together, the wonderful thing is here in the

US we have both.

So like, you know, our brands have to be able to flex across both new build environments and conversion environments. And conversion environments here in the US, we usually think of converting from another brand. But in Europe, we're converting... For example, we have this beautiful, uh, former-- actually, it's still an active convent in the Amalfi Coast, and it's an Anantara there. Um, do you, how do you take something that's hundreds of years old and convert it into one of your brands? So, [00:27:00] that's just one of the ways that I think our brands are really, really special, that they allow for this flexibility, so that way they're also not vanilla, they're not predictable. Um, you know, I think I, I'm seeing that are, especially the higher in tier you go into upper upscale and into luxury, guests are moving away from wanting that predictable experience, right?

They don't want the same hotel in Tokyo versus New York. They want something that's more inherent to the, to the destination. And so our brands are, really, they're really conduits for, for guests, you know, connecting them to the location and to the destination itself so they can have a unique experience. so that's where we are on kind of that, that, you know, scalability versus uniqueness.

I would say we lean more into that uniques, that unique space.

Dan Ryan: just so many brands and coming into the US, e- whether people know you from around the world or not, [00:28:00] I think there's that opportunity to kind of be a trailblazer as well and have that new unique... You're, you're kind-- You're, you're not-- You, you have a legacy that you want to adhere to, but you also have the ab- ability and opportunity to play with that white space and really create something new and memorable, almost like, almost as if it were an independent hotel.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yourself right now? And, and as you're doing it with your team, where are you seeing the bottlenecks?

Genna Panagopoulos: So it's definitely gonna be harder in the early years, right? Because we're building brand awareness of Minor and the fact that we're here, right? Wanting to do busin- [00:29:00] open for business in the US and Canada and, and the Caribbean. but then also negotiating a deal, does it work for both sides, right?

So all of that takes time. As people get to know us and they see... You know, sometimes people wanna be the first, some people don't wanna be the first. So as we start to build a little bit more of our pipeline, we're pretty confident that we'll be able to pick up more hotels each year. So I think in the early years, we'll see just a couple of signings each year, and then hopefully they'll start to grow faster. Um, the other thing that we're looking at here in the US is being able to find a couple of portfolios. So maybe there's an owner out there that has three or four independent hotels, um, and they don't wanna really be handcuffed by a hard brand. Uh, and so maybe a collection brand is great for them. So if, if they wanna look at doing not just one hotel with us, but multiple, we can get really creative on how we think about our fees on a deal like that, and what other special incentives we can give them.

So [00:30:00] new. We, we've gotta do a lot of marketing, and this is where being a developer, but then also having brand experience comes in, which I'm pretty sure nobody else in the industry has right now Uh, because there's always that push and pull between development and brand. But, um, I'm of a firm belief, like we have to, we've gotta build our brand.

So every hotel that we do here needs to have dedicated marketing, um, from our side, right? Because it's, it's entering a, it's a new market entry, so we need to be, promoting it that way.

Dan Ryan: that's very interesting because a- as you were sharing that, I was thinking, okay, let's say you have this portfolio deal with three to four independents with one owner or maybe even more. Is there also an optionality to look at creating a new brand? Because maybe those three or four or five don't really fit.

Is that-- Are you flexible in that way, or is that like Too much at this point. Like we got, we got 12 or 14 flags. Let's see what we can ma-make it work here. But maybe at some [00:31:00] point in the future we could look at doing a Nor- a North American specific brand.

Genna Panagopoulos: Yeah. I think we have... Listen, we, we're very entrepreneurial, right? I mean, we're, we were start- started by an entrepreneur. Um, and that, that ethos still runs very thick in our blood, uh, today. I-- right now, probably we wouldn't launch a new brand just for that because we launched four new brands last year.

So we ha-

Oh, yeah.

Then two hard brands,

Hmm.

Of them in the luxury space. So I think our appetite for that this year is probably not that much. but maybe two or three years down the, the road It's possible. Um, but I think the collection brands are great. So we have a four-star and we have a five-star collection brand, and so the, the brand standards for that are, are very minimal.

It's more about service and product quality, less about here are the standards you have to meet, right? The standards are just the service and the quality. Um, [00:32:00] every hotel in that collection needs to be unique. So, um, that's kind of the home I would find for that hypothetical owner of independent hotels that's looking for something.

Dan Ryan: you were sharing that, I, I had a thought in my mind of other, another European brand that tried to, and, and did open up in the U.S. a, a, a bunch of hotels, but their aggre- their-- I think their growth plans were much steeper and more aggressive, and I don't really know what happened or why, but I'd love...

I don't know if you have an opinion on this, but Virgin. That was like a globally recognized brand. They had a, this tremendous growth plans within the U.S., but they only have a, a handful of properties. Have you looked at that? Do you have thoughts about that or things that you may have learned or things you might not want to repeat or, or, or follow in their footsteps?

Genna Panagopoulos: Um, I haven't studied Virgin specifically. We've definitely looked at other groups. Um, listen, I think everybody looks at the US and they think it's, "Oh my God, it's the [00:33:00] land of, of the free." Like, we can, we can go and do all these deals and, um, there's so much opportunity. Yes, there's so much opportunity, but there's a lot of things you have to do up front.

You have to do the marketing, you have to do the PR, you have to set up your operational team. I mean, it's, it's intensive, right? We're-- we-- The franchise model is not something you decide to set up overnight. It's actually a super complex model that took years for us to set up and, and now it's ready for us to, to launch here in the US. We did that because we wanted to come to the US. Um, I think other brands have been more reluctant to, to launch that model because it's unique to them. so that's, that's one thing. The other thing is, is, you know, Virgin's a brand of one. I have 12 different brands that

could fit, and so I have a lot of more markets I could go into, a lot of more boxes or, or hotels or assets that I could go into, a lot more flexibility, branded residences. you know, there's, there's just more optionality, and I think Minor [00:34:00] was really strategic about when they launched those four brands last year and then, you know, st- at the same time in parallel, was launching, uh, into the US here as well.

Dan Ryan: And I want to go back to that heat map to all of the conversations that you're having. Um, does it tend to be more resort, more s- uh, urban, more... I know you mentioned gateway, but gateway could be, you know, you're flying to Miami and you want to have a nice warm vacation. So on that heat map of conversations across all of the brands, w- like where are they happening?

Genna Panagopoulos: it's a good mix. We definitely have some, some resort opportunities, uh, but I'm maybe actually more, more in the urban space right now 'cause I'm in New York I'm looking at four or five different opportunities just in the two days that I'm here. I've been here almost every month since I started the job, looking at opportunities. Uh, also have opportunities in Miami. So I would say, um, [00:35:00] I would say it's been mostly urban, but we, like our development team is focusing on sourcing deals more in the resort space as well, which is, you know, harder to come by because, um, that could be more new development opportunity, which is a little bit harder to get done.

But then I'm looking for a needle in a haystack, right? It's not like if we wanna be out in Montana, I mean, how many luxury resorts are happening out there right now,

Dan Ryan: There's so many actually. It's really, it's like, it's a wild place.

Genna Panagopoulos: It's, it's a wild place and it's happening now, but it's also like if I, if I look at Miami, I have

Oh, there's even more. Yeah.

Look at

Dan Ryan: Right. No, I mean, what's surprising me right now, Montana is, seems to have a big heat map right now, and I, I s- I'm still hearing about more and more hotels, new and conversions being built in Nashville. Like, I don't know, it seems like that, that town is not slowing down at all.

Genna Panagopoulos: gravity. Um, God, even, even 10 years ago, I remember thinking Nashville was gonna go down in the books [00:36:00] of, uh, hospitality, uh, textbooks of, of defying all the things that you learn about, and it's still doing it, which is wild.

Dan Ryan: It is crazy. Um, so as you're having all these conversations, h- obviously, you know, you want to make sure that your first partners in this market are the right partners, and are there any kinds of questions or meetings or vibes that you may pick up from prospective partners where you're like, "Okay, maybe this doesn't fit.

This isn't a good cultural fit. Like, let's just, uh, let's hit pause and kind of- Take a breather on this one. Like, how do you know when to-- I'm, I'm, I'm having to-- I'm thinking of like, like Kenny Rogers, you know, know when to fold, know when to walk away, know when to run. Like, how, how do

Yeah.

How do you use that or create a litmus test around that?

Genna Panagopoulos: I mean, I think generally I've been doing, uh, you know, development for, for long enough that people wanna do deals with, with people that [00:37:00] they trust, right? It's a big decision to spend so much money and, go through the effort of, of installing our technology systems and so on. So, um, it's gotta be mutually beneficial and, and felt in a mutual way, right? Um, we have to be offering something that they want, and they have to be offering something that we want. I will say we haven't, uh... I guess on the deal terms front, there have been a few really unique ones that we've been asked that we said, "Okay, you know, yes, we could do this deal today," but the longevity of it wasn't there, so it doesn't really fit within our, our strategic ambition.

So we said, "Respectfully, this isn't the right one for us, but let's continue." the wonderful thing is, is we haven't lost relationships because we've turned down things. We've more said, "This isn't the right fit for you or for me or for us right now. Let's continue looking at other opportunities together."

Dan Ryan: I have a bunch of friends who are, um, real estate developers. [00:38:00] Uh, hospitality, multifamily, you name it. And I think some of the most successful friends of mine in, in what whichever space it is, they always manage to find... It's not a zero-sum game. They're trying to find that thing where everyone wins, that deal where everyone wins.

A lot of people, you know, they hit a plateau because it's always about what's the best I can do for me.

Mm-hmm.

And I'm here, I'm kind of picking up that that's what you're looking for, where everyone wins, where one plus one equals three. How do you structure those deals where everyone is winning, where it's accretive to the whole deal, to your brand portfolio, to their portfolio?

H- as you're talking to people and having the conversations, is there like a, a line of questioning or a, or a, a, a vi- I keep saying vibe. I'm saying it too much. But how do you know when it's, when it's a partner where that's also looking at it as, "Oh, this is something where everyone can win"?

Genna Panagopoulos: Yeah. laughing because I [00:39:00] don't know if my senior leaders in Europe would agree that, um, everybody wins on all the deals that I bring forward because, um, you know, it's, it's a give and a take, right? So as a brand, the way function here in the US is very different from how they function in the rest of the, the, the world, right?

So key money is practically a non-negotiable any full-service deal you do in the US. It doesn't matter if it's a, an established brand or a non-established brand, right? Um, owners are expecting that. So we've had to get very aggressive on some of our opportunities, um, which is why I think they'd say, "Oh, we're not always winning."

Dan Ryan: but in a way, for the, in the long term, you probably are, 'cause you probably have to give more key money than others, 'cause, right, there's this white space that we keep talking about. But over time, you, you, you know, it's like you're establishing a beachhead in the market,

Yeah.

Those owners will do even better, and in the long term, it, it will, it'll pay dividends.

Genna Panagopoulos: Exactly. [00:40:00] I mean, it's all about, I keep it-- I keep preaching this mindset that we're not here to make money right now. We're here to plant our flags and build brand awareness so that owner number four, five, and six Have somewhere to go that they can say, "Oh, I know what Minor does. This is, this is the brand that they do.

This is the service level that they operate in," and they know what to expect. So, um, yeah, it's, it's definitely... I mean, you'd be surprised on how much, um, things line up when you're working on a deal where we can offer something that they don't have. So, um, and vice versa. I mean, every deal that we're looking at, they're offering something we don't have because we only have one property here in the US.

But, um, you know, there are, there are deals that we've looked at here in Manhattan where we might say, "Hey, actually, we've got, we've got-- we're looking at too much in this one particular area. Um, why don't we try to diversify and, and kind of spread out the opportunity a little bit further?"

Dan Ryan: [00:41:00] whether in New York or, or other places, if you're look-- if you're trying-- if you're having all these conversations, i-if you were to kind of create a sandbox for that ideal partner for you guys, um, who is that? Like, what is the psychographic of that partner to help take one of your flags and, and plant it in the ground?

Genna Panagopoulos: I would say somebody who has, uh, you know, it's hard for me to say if it's a, uh, an independent hotel owner, like a private investor or a PE firm. But I would say the one value that I personally think is really important is unwavering quality of the asset, right? Um, I think landing the right, the first five hotels should be as on-brand strategy as possible and such great representations because have these beautiful flagships to point to.

If you sacrifice on your first couple of, of hotel opportunities, um, and there's a lot of VE that gets, that, that [00:42:00] ends up happening and the brand gets diluted, what do you-- what, what did you do the deal for then, right? So I think somebody who really understands quality, um, it'd be great if they were an expert in that segment, right?

So they're not a mid-scale owner trying to pull off a luxury product. Um, that being said, if they are, of ourselves as great partners to help handhold through that process. And we're not afraid to do that because we have a really, really robust technical services team, um, who's done that before.

They lived in this hotel for two years, uh, while it was under construction during the, during the pandemic. So, um, uh, to me, I think, you know, just going back to that value of, of quality and, and holding tight to it is, is really, really key for us.

Dan Ryan: I know you painted that picture of five years to have 25 hotels as a goal, which is achievable, but also it's a, you know, it's a, a kind of a flat runway, and then I, I have a feeling it'll [00:43:00] get a little parabolic on you. Um, as you in your current seat where you are now and talking to your team in Europe and here, um, what excites you most as you get into that five to 10 years, right?

So you're, you have your 25. Go beyond that. What, like, what's the ul- what's the dream state?

Genna Panagopoulos: Oh my God. It would be to have some of these, just like I point to these assets in Europe and Asia, to have them here and be able to take my family and my friends too very easily, and prospective owners and designers and say, "Yeah, this is ours. I, you know, I helped build this, uh, this beautiful portfolio of properties."

That would be... I'd be winning. I'd be winning if that was the case.

Dan Ryan: so we're beyond five years. You're, you have these amazing properties and you're bringing your family and you're having these incredible memories. As you, as you look back, let's say we're seven years in the future and you're looking back at the journey you were [00:44:00] just on, if you were to tell the story of what sets you apart and minor hotels and what you've done over the past seven years, what's that story that you'd tell that would set you apart?

Genna Panagopoulos: I think in term- I think we think differently. So going back to this idea that we, we own the vast majority, owner lease the vast majority of our portfolio. don't think like everybody else. We think like an owner, and we understand what it's like to operate. I'm sitting in a, a hotel in Manhattan. We know what it's like to operate in a union environment.

So I think, you know, owners might look at us and say, "Hey, you're, you're new here. What do you know about the US?" Well, we have done a lot of educa- self-education, um Specifically buying a hotel on our own balance sheet. Um, and we've evolved our brands. We've introduced new brands, but it all comes back, you know, and lots of companies have done that.

But it all comes back to how we think about our owners as partners, right? We're looking to grow. We wanna give them [00:45:00] something that they, you know, aren't finding otherwise. Um, here to be a partner with them. We're here to offer, um, you know, advice where, when wanted and when needed. Um, we're offer-- we're here to, to get creative on our deal terms and how we structure a deal. Um, and I, I always say anything's on the table, like toss it out. There are so many new deal structures that even, um, every couple of weeks we get a new one that I'm like, "Well, I, I wouldn't have thought of that myself," but yeah, absolutely. Why not?

Dan Ryan: Actually, that's a good point. So when you think about all of the different deal structures and you, and now I hear you're surprised by some, I think that's like that entrepreneurial spirit trying to always just see how, how can we make this work? How can we make this work? So how, like what, what's a new unusual structure that you've heard of?

Or share two of them.

Genna Panagopoulos: you were, I knew you were gonna ask this, but I don't wanna give away my secrets so the other brands don't come after them because they're pretty good. They're really, really good. [00:46:00] Um, some of the owners I've been speaking to have been really attracted to them. But, I would say, you know, companies are really-- brand companies tend to be very nervous to give money funds upfront in a pre-development phase.

We are too, right? There's a lot of development risk that, that

Dan Ryan: A huge risk, yeah.

Genna Panagopoulos: assume. Um, but there's other ways we can get creative on, on filling that need without, without, um, giving key money before the hotel's open.

Dan Ryan: okay, so without giving up your secret sauce, um, a lot of brand, a lot of brands, you know, say they're different, right? And but also from the owner's s- if you're wearing your owner's hat, many of them kind of feel interchangeable. So from your experience, what makes a brand matter today, and how does it differentiate itself?

Genna Panagopoulos: I think it's all about, um, know, the, the existing product in the portfolio and how it's being talked about, right? There's a lot [00:47:00] of wonderful luxury brands, hotel brands that have had to really redefine themselves in recent years, um, to be more relatable to, to the, the vast

demographic of, of, of travelers today, right?

Dan Ryan: Right, you're, you're trying to find all these correct partners, right? And a lot of it is, okay, it's financial, it's what's the deal, it's how do we find this thing where everyone wins? But as you're having these conversations, when-- what is it in the conversations that makes you either lean in or lean back?

Genna Panagopoulos: it's hard to say 'cause I think it's a little bit different in every conversation, but there

are certain cues, right? So, you lean in when, when they control the site. But when they say they don't control the site, you lean back a little bit because that means, you know, it could actually be a waste of your time, right?

You could be working and putting your eggs and, and all your effort in one basket and... And but

Dan Ryan: well, get the-- you get the rug pulled out [00:48:00] from under you.

Genna Panagopoulos: Exactly.

Yeah.

And again, we, the number one, one of the most important things I grapple with every day is where to spend my time, right? So, um, that's

one thing, and then I think just understanding and, you know, when I'm, when I'm working with different groups, I tend to go visit their existing portfolio so I can see, you know, how they keep their house, right?

Um, it's important to kind of assess their current product. And if they... If I walk in and, and I think it's not quite as nice as they told me, that's another flag too. Um, I haven't had that, that experience yet here, but, um, definitely in my past. So there's, there's definitely some little cues you can pick up. I think leaning in too when they get so excited about some of our brands, right? I have, I have, um, uh, hotel owners that I've worked with in the past who as soon as I joined Minor, they called me and they said, "Oh my God, you're working for NH." And "Well, it's now called Minor, but yes." [00:49:00] And they were so excited a- about, you know, bringing that brand here.

So, um, in those cases it's great because then they have... They understand the value of the brand and, um, are excited about, you know, its potential here in the US. So

there's... It's, it's hard to pinpoint, but there's always little cues you can pick up on, um, and things that are said, and then understanding what their expectations are.

You know, some ask for the world and, and it's good to know that they're expecting the world, and we go in eyes wide open when we start negotiating a deal because, um, might be able to say from the very beginning, "This is... We'll, we're never gonna get to your, to your ask,"

Dan Ryan: And then I, I like the idea of like the f- the, the being in that future state, right? But let's say it's between five to seven years from now. Um, you have more than 25 hotels out there. If y- let's just say it's seven years in the future,

Mm-hmm.

And we're having this conversation. What, what do you think would have happened, aside from just [00:50:00] the number of hotels and the portfolio growth in North America, what would have to happen for you to say and really feel, "Oh, we got this right"?

Genna Panagopoulos: well, I'd love for some of those hotels to have won some great awards and made some, you know, wonderful hot it lists and, got a lot of PR. But then also, it, it's important that we have a regional office here too, and that's also on the horizon.

I don't know what the magic number is of how many we have to have ,

how many hotels we have to have open ,or in the pipeline.

But um you know, it's important that in the US we do have boots on the ground. That's why they hired me as an american,versus handling, um either sending somebody from Europe

or handling it from Europe.

Uh so I think that that would be a really exciting, um, thing to see in the future.

Dan Ryan: Awesome and then in your dream state 7 years in the future, where is the regional ... where is like the North American office gonna be headquartered?

Genna Panagopoulos: Uh, to be determined. I mean, I live in, I live in Atlanta, right? And I can tell you it's probably not gonna be [00:51:00] there. Uh, maybe New York, maybe Miami, but somewhere central that's easy to get to also from Europe and, and the rest of the US.

Dan Ryan: Fantastic.

Genna Panagopoulos: Yeah.

Dan Ryan: Genna, this has been a wonderful conversation. If people wanted to learn more about you or Minor Hotels, what's a good way for them to get in touch?

Genna Panagopoulos: definitely LinkedIn. Uh, please write my name down accurately so they can find me. Otherwise, make it very hard. But yeah, LinkedIn's the best way. I'm, I'm... pride myself on responding quickly.

Dan Ryan: Oh, we will do that for sure. Um, I just wanna say thank you very much for coming on here. I've been really looking forward to this conversation, and I wish you unbound success as you continue to grow, uh, your pipeline, and I can't wait to have this conversation again. Well, between now, but also five years from now, we're gonna be talking, and we're gonna see how many hotels you have under your belt.

Genna Panagopoulos: Let's put it on the books, and, uh, sounds good. Thanks for having me. This has been a pleasure.

Dan Ryan: I love it. And thank you to all of our [00:52:00] listeners. If it wasn't for you, we wouldn't be hearing about these incredible growth stories and entering new markets and how to find deals where everyone wins. So if this changed the way you think about hospitality or development, or you think, can think of someone who might benefit from hearing this conversation, please pass it along.

We grow a lot by word of mouth, and I really appreciate all y'all for tuning in, and we'll catch you next time. Thank you.