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The Homing podcast explores the importance of home in shaping who we are.
Join Matt Gibberd, author and co-founder of The Modern House, as he takes listeners inside the homes of inspiring guests to examine what really happens inside our walls – how they influence our emotions, creativity and sense of self.
Featuring leading voices from art, film, wellbeing and beyond, Homing is a thoughtful journey into remarkable homes and the minds that shape them.
Be prepared for tears, laughter, and everything in between.
"The Best Podcasts To Listen To" – Vogue
Homing is produced by Podshop, with music by Simeon Walker.
Homing is an independent podcast and operates as a separate venture from The Modern House Limited. While Matt Gibberd is a co-founder of The Modern House, all opinions expressed on Homing are solely those of the host and his guests.
Speaker 1 00:00:00 Plumber came round to do some work and he walked in and he was like, oh, wow. He said, your house looks like a house in Hackney. I said, I don't know, you just made my heart smile. So that's a true compliment for me. I can't imagine a space without art. It gives me comfort. It kind of hugs me, having it. So wherever I go, my art will go with me. I went into therapy because I was burning out a lot, because the people pleasing was also about making sure everybody else was okay, and not that I was. My saying was, I haven't got time for that, I haven't.
Speaker 2 00:00:48 Hi, Natasha.
Speaker 1 00:00:49 Hi.
Speaker 2 00:00:50 Thanks so much for being on homing. if you close your eyes and picture the home that you grew up in or your childhood home, what do you see? First of all, and how does it feel?
Speaker 1 00:01:03 If I was to close my eyes, I would see color. Lots of color. Definitely influenced by my childhood home.
Speaker 1 00:01:12 Green. My mom loved green as well. And what was interesting about my childhood home, unlike other Caribbean households that I knew, is that my mom sort of bucked the trend. She didn't have a good front room while we lived on in a council house anyway, so there was not that much space. But even so, flock wallpaper was a big thing when I was growing up and my mom detested it. It was you made it if you had flock wallpaper. My mom was like, no, that's what you have in pubs. I'm not having it in my house. But every other Caribbean household I went to had flock wallpaper, whereas my mom was like, having feature walls and a mixture of furniture. So it was very individual. If I picture my childhood home, it was very individual, it was very warm and it felt very safe. and it was very colorful.
Speaker 2 00:02:09 Okay. And so where are we in the world here when you're describing it? Where was it?
Speaker 3 00:02:13 So I grew up on a.
Speaker 1 00:02:15 Council estate in Clapton in Hackney. and where I'm describing is where I lived most of my childhood, from probably the age of nine, eight, nine till about 15, 16 years old. It was two bedroom, and it was when we moved in, it was a new build. Okay, so when you live in council properties, you're often going into older spaces. So, you know, there's something quite fresh about we are the very first people to live there. And you know, we had a garden because I came from, a block of flats before then, and it was a very small estate as well, right next to Millfield Park. So Yeah. And I had I had my own bedroom until my brother came along when I was ten. And then we shared it, but it was quite a big bedroom.
Speaker 2 00:03:05 What was that like?
Speaker 1 00:03:06 Well, it was kind of weird because we it's such a big age gap. So I was the only child for for ten years. but it was fine.
Speaker 1 00:03:14 You don't know any different way when you were growing up in a working class household. It's that's just how it is that you're sharing a room. And when we when we moved from there, when my parents bought a house, then I got my own bedroom. But it wasn't it wasn't a big deal.
Speaker 2 00:03:31 Did you decorate it before he came along?
Speaker 1 00:03:34 Yeah. I think my mum was really cool with allowing me to experiment. And I remember I had chocolate walls. I don't know if that was very fashionable at the time. I had chocolate walls, chocolate brown walls, and I had a dolly mixture. I don't know if you remember, there was to be this, wallpaper company called Dolly mixtures, and I had this brown flower patterned feature wall. And I had a round rattan chair on metal legs, which now go for quite a lot of money, but I'm pretty sure we threw it in a skip at some point. so yeah, it was a cool it was a cool bedroom.
Speaker 2 00:04:10 So you would sort of to some extent decorating even then.
Speaker 2 00:04:13 What do you why do you think you were doing that instinctively? What was it that you were trying to make sense of or do for yourself by doing that?
Speaker 1 00:04:21 I feel that, and for a long time I felt I have kind of held back on acknowledging my creativity. And that's not my parents, because in some households, you know, again, Caribbean households, I can only speak about Caribbean households. It was like you get a good job, a good job is working for the council or, you know, etc.. So even though I wasn't getting that from my parents, I think in my head it was you go into business. So my way of expressing my creativity was in my bedroom and in what I wore as well. so I was into Doc Martin's with safety big kilt pins in them, and I remember wearing a a jumper as a pair of trousers. Drop crotch trousers.
Speaker 2 00:05:09 I love.
Speaker 1 00:05:09 That. Yes, I was very I was always very creative in the way that I dressed and also in the way that my room was.
Speaker 1 00:05:17 And I was allowed to do that and explore that. So even though I wasn't acknowledging my creativity, that it was definitely coming out from a very early age.
Speaker 2 00:05:27 Yeah I see. Okay. And so have you just got the one, brother? Is it just the two of you?
Speaker 1 00:05:31 So there's on my mum and I was brought up by my mum and my stepdad from the age of two. and so on that side, I've got a brother, and with my birth father, I have a sister.
Speaker 2 00:05:44 Okay. Yeah. So was your dad there throughout your childhood, though, or not? My birth. Your birth.
Speaker 1 00:05:49 Father? No. He was in and out. Yeah. he was a Rastafarian. He was a rooster and he was a very committed to working in his community, more so than with his children, actually. and so he was he lived in Jamaica for quite a bit, and then he lived in South London. So he was kind of in and out. The person that was there the most and still is there the most is my stepdad, who I referred to as my dad.
Speaker 1 00:06:18 Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:06:19 How would you describe yourself in the family dynamic when you were young then?
Speaker 1 00:06:23 I was the good child. Yeah, I was the one that didn't cause any problems. I was quite quiet, quite studious. my brother, the youngest, was the most kind of rebellious, in a way. And I suppose, you know, the second or the last child always sort of pushes the boundaries more, perhaps, than the first or the oldest child. So yeah, I think I was the one that. Yeah was quite quiet, quite studious.
Speaker 2 00:06:54 Would you go so far as to say, being a sort of pleaser?
Speaker 1 00:06:58 100%? Yeah, and I think that's still a problem today. I was even talking to a friend about this a few weeks ago that I'm a people pleaser. Are you? Yeah. And often to my own detriment, that I will do that, you know.
Speaker 2 00:07:12 How did you go to school, then?
Speaker 1 00:07:14 I did really well at school. I think I did really well because I worked hard.
Speaker 1 00:07:22 What I realized later in life is that I'm dyslexic, and I've just got on with it, and I've been able to get on with it, and I. I realized it twice in my life. Once was when I was at university and I was writing something, and I kept using the word is specific with an S and the whole way through. I spell it with a P and didn't realize it. And and I remember the tutor just put in read all through it and I just thought I was I. Maybe I wasn't concentrating, but then as I got older, I realized, particularly in situations of stress, that I would write something and in my head it sounded right. And then when I if I looked at it, not straight away, because if I looked at it straight away, it would look okay. But then if I look at it later, it was gobbledygook. And then a client of mine and a good friend I wrote, I had to write a report and said, have you ever considered that you might be dyslexic? I was mortified.
Speaker 1 00:08:25 And then when I read it, it was like it was nonsense. So sometimes it's around. Sentences aren't put together very well, the word but and puts. I often confuse the two. I haven't been formally diagnosed, but I definitely know I've got something going on with my brain and words. But besides that, I did really well. I went to university. I was the first person in my family to go to university.
Speaker 2 00:08:52 What did you study?
Speaker 1 00:08:53 I studied something called public administration. And if you asked me what that is, I have no clue. I know it was really boring. I know, I know, I got A21 out of it, which was good. but again, it was this, this thinking that I need to do something that's business related. And I couldn't get into a business degree course. So I did public administration, and I got A21 because I studied hard, but I can't even tell you what the elements are. I didn't enjoy it. And in hindsight, I should have done something creative.
Speaker 1 00:09:30 And again, that wasn't because my parents pushed me to do anything. Just my head at the time was like, oh, you have to do something that will get you a good job, whatever a good job might be. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:09:41 So is that the people pleasing element again? Do you.
Speaker 1 00:09:43 Say 100%?
Speaker 2 00:09:44 Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:09:44 Yeah. And this is all me, right. This isn't necessarily about its being driven by any particular person. This is me trying to people, please, at the detriment of myself.
Speaker 2 00:09:57 Yeah, but it sounds like you're saying that it's not driven by your parents necessarily, but is it driven culturally because you were talking about Caribbean families and there's this expectation there somehow?
Speaker 1 00:10:07 So I think it's kind of this intersection between culture and class, right? So I grew up in a very working class family and area. So I think there is a mixture of culture and class that, you know, if you do well, you get a job and you get good money and you get good holiday leave.
Speaker 1 00:10:28 So at one point I work for the council, and then I went into to work for a private consultancy and oh my God, everyone was like, no one leaves the council. That's a job for life. I'm like, yeah, but I've left like. But you know, you get good holidays and good pay. So, so yeah, I think it is a mixture of culture and not just Caribbean culture, but the culture that I grew up in, the class that I came from as well, and the expectations that I think I put on myself because of that.
Speaker 2 00:10:58 Yeah, that makes sense. I want to ask you about this word safety, because you brought it up earlier. You said so. The home felt like a safe place to live. Yeah. What about the context of the community as a whole and beyond that? Did you feel safe in London at that time? Did you feel safe in that area of London? What was that like for you?
Speaker 1 00:11:18 So I think when I think about safety as a child, when I was at primary school, I was bullied quite badly at primary school.
Speaker 1 00:11:27 So definitely coming home felt safe because the people that bullied me at school also lived in the the just literally down the road for me. So being safe at that time, from the age of probably about maybe 9 to 11, that's feel that's how long it felt it went on for meant being in the house and being in the home, and also because I didn't tell my parents for the longest time. So not having to talk about it or think about it in the home felt safe to me. I think I grew up in Hackney and it's so funny, right? Because Hackney, such a gentrified area, and it wasn't when I was growing up. And when I told people as an adult that I grew up in Hackney, or when I started working for the council in Hackney, people were like, oh, you live in Hackney? What's that like? Oh, you work for the council. And I'm like, I don't know any different. You know, when you don't know any different. So no, I didn't I'm not I wasn't worried about walking around the streets or, or stuff like that.
Speaker 1 00:12:28 You know, I certainly knew some dodgy people that that lived in my area, but I wasn't scared of them, you know, just dodgy people everywhere. Right? But yeah, there was this judgement about from other people. And then when I went to university And they were talking about poverty. And they said the statistic that Hackney was the poorest borough in the whole of Europe. And I'm 57, and I still remember that. And the immediate shame that this and I was in, I should say, for context, I went to university in Wales, in the valleys of Wales. So having them talk about it, and it wasn't specific to me, but that statistic was like, oh, wow. Because I didn't know any different. I grew up in, as I say, a very working class family. There wasn't a lot of money, but we never we never went starving. I wasn't worried about walking around the streets. yeah. It was just home.
Speaker 2 00:13:29 Looking back on it now, why do you think you got bullied at that age then?
Speaker 1 00:13:34 I think I was, I mean, why does anyone get bullied? I suppose I was, I was vulnerable, I didn't feel that I could stick up for myself because the fear was too much.
Speaker 1 00:13:46 I feel really strongly about anti-bullying and whenever I hear about kids being bullied, you know, sort of I get very tense about how unfair it was, you know? And I think about one of my best friends at the time, she was also they also went for her, but she had a fight with one of them, and then they just left her alone. But I was just too. I just it wasn't an option for me at the time. And the bullying only stopped when I went to secondary school because we went to different secondary schools. And I really loved secondary school. And I think part of that was I could just be me and not worry about being bullied.
Speaker 2 00:14:26 Yeah, yeah. So that thing of just being you. So at primary school, did you feel a sense of difference then to some of the others around you?
Speaker 1 00:14:33 Yeah. Because I'm, I'm being highlighted. I'm being picked on because of it. I had very long hair when I was growing up quite thick here as well.
Speaker 1 00:14:45 And, you know, black people come in all different shapes and sizes and, and, you know, different shades and different hair textures. And so my hair was quite long and quite straight. without any kind of enhancements to it. So part of the bullying was, oh, you think you're, you're great. You think you're wonderful because you've got long hair and stuff that you can't change. And I think that's why I feel so strongly about anti-bullying, because it's not things that you can change about. It's it's who you intrinsically are that you're bullied for. And so it just feels very unfair. So yeah, I did feel that I was different in a negative way. And that wasn't we were a very diverse school. So it wasn't that I was the only black kid in the school, but yeah, that I was being picked on because of my looks. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:15:40 And the dyslexia that you mentioned that. Yeah. That you think you've identified quite a lot of the people that I've spoken to on this podcast have proven to be dyslexic, and I really think that it comes with it sometimes.
Speaker 2 00:15:54 Such an interesting way of looking at the world.
Speaker 1 00:15:57 Yeah, I think there is a connection between creativity and dyslexia. I haven't got any research behind it, but I've seen it enough with people who are creative that maybe the other part of the brain compensates or works in a different way around it. It's never stopped me from doing things. It's just that I've become more aware of, oh, you were overcompensating around that, or you hadn't realised that that was what was going on for you. And now that I do, I know when to take a break or to get someone else to look at something I avoid like the plague, if I can. Writing reports.
Speaker 2 00:16:38 So you did you leave home to go to university in Wales, then I did.
Speaker 1 00:16:42 I had this idea about going somewhere far away, and this all romanticized idea of being outside of Hackney and somewhere really different. And it was awful at first because I went from inner city London to the valleys of Wales. You know, I went to inner city London, which is full of noise and smells and, you know, police sirens and all of those things to quiet and sheep and greenery.
Speaker 1 00:17:17 And it was such a huge culture shock for me that for the first, I'd say six months to a year, I kept thinking, I don't. I was really, really homesick. And in the end I moved, because I was in a place called Pontypridd. And so I moved to Cardiff and then I would just commute into the campus because I just needed a bit of city, a bit of city life. so yeah, I did. It was the first time I'd moved away from home as well. So it was.
Speaker 2 00:17:50 Yeah, it's interesting that, isn't it? It's almost like we have a frequency that we tune into that we're so used to. Yeah, that the silence is deafening somehow. Yeah. When you're surrounded by sheep.
Speaker 1 00:18:01 I think it was so weird. You'd think people think of that as calm and relaxing where it was just odd. Where's the noise? Where's the noise? Why is everything so quiet and so dark and so yeah, it was very, very different. And it wasn't very diverse there either.
Speaker 1 00:18:18 that same. The only black in the village. Yeah. There weren't very many of us in there. And the locals were resentful, firstly of students because they thought we were all posh, which was not true. And also there was some racism as well. So, you know, adding that into the mix made it a little bit difficult to. But then what I did was, there was an African, Caribbean like society. So I got to mix with other people who had similar experiences to me.
Speaker 2 00:18:50 Okay. Because we talk a lot on this podcast about the idea of belonging.
Speaker 1 00:18:55 Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:18:55 So it sounds like you're you're sort of parachuted into a community there where you've just got no sense of belonging at all.
Speaker 1 00:19:02 No.
Speaker 2 00:19:04 what what what's that what's that like then? I mean, how do you look back on that now?
Speaker 1 00:19:08 Do you know what? I'm glad I did it.
Speaker 2 00:19:10 Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:19:11 because it's it's an experience that shaped me, in surviving in different spaces and not giving up as well in different spaces and making different friends as well.
Speaker 1 00:19:28 what's interesting for me is that and often when I talk to people about, you know, where did you grow up? And, in my work. And where did you grow up and how diverse was the community? And people will say, oh, you know, I was the I lived in a village. I was the there wasn't anybody but white people in my village. And whilst I grew up in a very diverse base in Hackney, people assumed that everybody mixed. And I would say that's not necessarily true. You still have your cliques of cultures and communities that might live side by side, but don't necessarily merge into one community. I think that can sometimes be a myth that, oh, I grew up in London. It's very diverse. Yes, it is, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it's this rainbow family all of a sudden. So I think going away enabled me more to mix with and have friends from different cultures and different ethnicities and different walks of life, different classes of life that I wouldn't necessarily have had if I'd stayed in in London.
Speaker 2 00:20:35 So that's obviously been a theme that's important to you and that you've carried through to your work. So can you just tell us a bit about that, your work as a diversity consultant.
Speaker 1 00:20:44 And so on. Yeah. So my in terms of my values, social justice and equity has always been important to me. And when I worked at the council, I worked in a unit which was for women of different ethnicities and cultures, who were experiencing domestic violence. So equity, social justice is always important to me. And then it became my full time career and life around it. And then it went into kind of corporate spaces. So talking about talent and discrimination and benefits and all of those kinds of things. So I'm often having conversations with with people who haven't, don't necessarily think about it because they're privileged enough not to have to think about it, so I say I. I'm often in corporate spaces where I'm the only black person in the room, and I'm definitely the only woman in the room. And when I walk into those spaces, people will have an idea about who I am without even having connected with me.
Speaker 1 00:21:52 That's the reality. That's the way our brain works. Why is we compartmentalize? Oh, Natasha, looks like da da da da da da da. This is what my brain says. The experience of da da da da da. Looks like now, that might be because I've had contact with people like her. Or I've seen it in the media, or read it somewhere, or whatever it might be.
Speaker 2 00:22:12 Just to pick up on this. Are you saying this is because of the way that you present yourself, or is it because of what you're doing as a as a profession?
Speaker 1 00:22:20 I think it's a bit of both, but also because I'm a black woman firstly, and I'm walking into predominantly majority white spaces. They don't necessarily see people who look like me. So there is an instinctive thing that says, okay, so where does she fall into what I know about someone that looks like her? Okay. Which may be correct or incorrect. You will always have a first impression, right? Yeah. But am I open to just pausing that and learning more about that individual from my interaction with them, so that my preconceived judgements aren't the only things that form what I think about that person? So there is about what I look like.
Speaker 1 00:23:07 But then you're right, there's also a bit of oh oh and she's the diversity consultant. Better not say that I better watch what I might. Sometimes they actually don't watch what they say. They just get very comfortable. so there's, there is all of that. but I'm really confident in what I do, and I'm good at what I do, so I'm not shaken by going into those spaces. You know, I'm talking to CEOs. you know, senior leadership teams, boards a lot of the time. And if I'm not confident, they'll they'll eat me alive. Do you know what I mean? So I have to feel confident. And mostly they're good people, right? Sometimes you get the odd idiot, but mostly they're just good people wanting to understand or haven't exercise that brain muscle. To think about what it's like to be different going into a corporate space, or why they keep employing the same people that look like them. Now, that might not be an intentional thing, but it is a comfort zone thing.
Speaker 1 00:24:08 So it's about challenging them to think in different ways. So yeah, I've done that for gosh, over 30 years now. Wow.
Speaker 2 00:24:15 Yeah, it's really valuable stuff. So alongside that, how else do you describe what you do professionally?
Speaker 1 00:24:22 I'm an interior designer. I design mostly residential, but I also did a, restaurant a few years ago as well. my house is a location house, so I rent my house out and I run a project called the Lemon Sea Project, which is close to my heart because I collect art by black artists predominantly. So it's creating a space where my house becomes an installation and a gallery for black, for black art, and then open it up to the public. So a real mixture of things. But I think all kind of parts of what makes me creative. Really.
Speaker 2 00:25:04 Well, let's move on to this current home that we're in now then. So you mentioned the Lemon Sea project. So tell us about that. What's it like to, open your home up as a gallery in that way and have members of the public coming in and interacting with it?
Speaker 1 00:25:19 Yeah, people always wonder that way.
Speaker 1 00:25:21 Yeah. The house is also location here, so I have to be comfortable with strangers trudging through the house. Yeah. And I'm. I'm absolutely okay with that. Yeah. I love having conversations with different people and engaging with different people. so it's it's not a big deal, and it's a very social house anyway, so I'm used to having people come through, that I know or don't know. So the Lemon Seed project is to create a space for black artists to show their work. And the reason that I started it, it's kind of my love letter to black artists, because I've always. Well, I've collected for the last 30 years collected art, and I wanted to collect. I was very conscious about collecting art that represented me. So I have a lot of portrait or figurative work with black subjects in them. I grew up at a time where there wasn't a lot of representation of things that looked like me in art, film, in books even toys weren't representative. So as an adult, part of my home being a home was having art that that I could relate to.
Speaker 1 00:26:37 And then I just thought, well, I can relate to this and but I don't see a lot of we're seeing more, but I still don't see a lot of black artists being represented in galleries. And so I was talking to one of my friends who's also an artist, and I said, well, why don't we show your art in, in my home. And the difference, I feel, is that sometimes it can feel intimidating for people to walk into a gallery or a big space. I went to at the at the weekend, I went to an exhibition of Kerry James Marshall, an amazing American black artist at the Royal Academy, a huge, imposing building. And I think for some people can feel a bit scary about walking in and how are you supposed to look at it? And how much do you move around? And are you supposed to be an expert? And so I feel having curated a space in the home feels more welcoming, that you're welcoming somebody into your home that takes away that barrier.
Speaker 1 00:27:43 And also, using the house as an installation in itself can show people that art can translate from a gallery into a home. So people might go into a gallery and say, oh, that's great, but I don't think that could work in my home. I live in a two up, two down terraced house. It's not the hugest house. It's not tiny, but it's not huge. But I've got big pieces of art. I've got small pieces of art. They are. They're shown in all different ways. So it's to inspire them. And finally, for for the artists, by having every exhibition has a private view. And myself and my daughter who co-founded the Legacy Project, we curate it so that you have other gallerists, curators, and buyers so that they can network, sell their work, and hopefully that their work moves on to somewhere else. So yeah, that was the the reason behind it. And because I'm used to my house being open to the public. It just felt yeah that that's the next thing really.
Speaker 4 00:28:45 If you're curious to take a look around Natasha's home, we also recorded a house tour that's available on Patreon. She shows me her fantastic collection of paintings by black artists and reads out a message from her daughter on the kitchen blackboard that brings a lump to both of our throats. Head over to Patreon.com Matt to take a look.
Speaker 2 00:29:10 That's great, isn't it, though that that. private versus public.
Speaker 1 00:29:15 Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:29:16 Debate. Because, you know, a home is a it is a safe space. It is a private space. And yet you're using it in a very public way. Not only for shoots, but also for exhibitions.
Speaker 1 00:29:27 Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:29:28 And you live here mostly on your own, right?
Speaker 1 00:29:31 Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:29:32 So do you ever feel vulnerable in some way doing that, or is that actually contributing to the sense of safety by opening up like that?
Speaker 1 00:29:42 I suppose I put parameters around what makes it still feel like a home for me. So it might feel bizarre, but there is one room in the house which has never rented out, which has never seen, which is my office upstairs.
Speaker 1 00:29:55 So even when the house is rented out as a location shoot, that's one room that remains private. So having a sense of control over where it can be used with a lemon seed project. The art is curated in the downstairs so people don't go upstairs, so having control helps it to be, safe. And we also have a you have to sign up to come so that the address isn't put out everywhere. Of course, people probably know where I am, but it isn't. You only get the address once you've signed up to come here, but I suppose it can. This can always be risky, right? So I had someone send me a letter once. And this is so weird because this is how we used to communicate. But because I'm so used to people contacting me through social media or through email, that feels safe. Doesn't. Someone sent me a letter through the door and then I was like, I felt a bit invaded, which seems might feel really bizarre, but I'm not putting my address out.
Speaker 1 00:31:07 So why have you sent me this letter? And I mean, it was okay, the letter was okay. But yeah, that that that felt unsafe because maybe I hadn't invited people to communicate. When I say communicate, DM me. Send me an email. Not here's my address. Send me a letter. But I kept it just in case she ever turns up. I kind of it kind of felt stalker ish as I'm thinking it through. It kind of sounds weird, right? Because I grew up at a time where the main communication wasn't even a phone, it was letter or postcard. But now it feels odd that someone's invading my privacy by not emailing me and sending me a letter. I don't know, maybe that's just the change in the times about what feels acceptable or not. I didn't respond to the letter.
Speaker 2 00:32:02 Was it a nice letter?
Speaker 5 00:32:04 It was kind of weird.
Speaker 1 00:32:05 I don't know, maybe I read into it that it was weird. Like, I've seen what you're doing. I'm doing exactly the same thing as you.
Speaker 1 00:32:11 And I'd like you to come round for tea and coffee. And I thought. And a murder. No. Thank you. I'm very dramatic that way. It probably wasn't. It was probably really sweet. It just I think I was just a bit. Yeah. Concerned that it came as a letter. But I am very careful about even though it is open for a couple three years. I did the open House festival for London and one year this guy came by. This was before the festival started and he knocked on the door and said, this is really weird. I know I'm just going to leave you a letter, but my girlfriend and I, we really love your home, but we're going to be away. And we just wondered if we could come and see it beforehand. I was like, thank you. And then I closed the door and I thought, oh hell no, that's not happening. I'm sure again, there was no mal intent. And there is a part of me, the people pleaser, that would have said, come in, have a look around, and then end up on the front of a on the news, again, being dramatic, but yeah, but then the the safe part of me said he seems really nice, but actually you don't know this person and it's not going through the website.
Speaker 1 00:33:17 So unfortunately he's not going to be able to come.
Speaker 2 00:33:21 It sounds to me like it's about boundaries, isn't it?
Speaker 1 00:33:24 Yes.
Speaker 2 00:33:25 And I think when you're a people pleaser, the tendency can be to not have tight enough boundaries. And then when people step too close. Yeah. Then you slightly freak out. Yeah. Because you haven't set them in the right spot in the first place.
Speaker 1 00:33:40 Exactly. But I have to keep reminding myself that as much as I'm a people pleaser, I have to be safe.
Speaker 2 00:33:47 Yeah. Tell me about how you found this house and your first meeting with it. And how did you know that you were going to be here?
Speaker 1 00:33:55 I was really fortunate that when I bought my first house, the house before this one, it was at the time where the market. So I'd say it was probably 95, 96. So this was after the crash. So interest rates were really low and, you didn't need much of a deposit and house prices were really low. I don't know if it will ever get to that again, but it was perfect.
Speaker 1 00:34:22 So I bought my first house, two bedrooms for 65,000, in Walthamstow. I don't think you can get a garage for 65,000 in any part of London. Anyway, I stayed there for two years. It was in pretty good condition so it didn't need anything but some decor. I got bored, so I sold it after two years and it doubled in price. And that allowed me to buy this house. But this house was the worst house on the street. And I don't say that for any dramatic effect. It really was. It was an older couple who I think had bought it at the time, where Victorian architecture was seen as old fashioned. So any internal Victorian architecture, they took out spindles in the stairs. I had, that kind of popcorn, RTX ceilings downstairs taking out the fireplace It had. So when I came, most people would have run the other way and I was like, oh, there's potential here. There's no central heating. It probably needs rewiring. Oh, I should say I also had a child that was a year, a baby a year and a half year old baby.
Speaker 1 00:35:32 It was a hot mess. There was carpet in the kitchen. It had a yellow bathroom. Sweet, but shouldn't say sweet because they were different colors of plastic yellow and not in a retro way that people are buying color. Yeah, it wasn't great.
Speaker 2 00:35:50 So what did you see in it that others may not have done?
Speaker 1 00:35:53 I thought firstly, it was the right price. Yeah, I think it was £132,000 and houses that were in good condition were going for about 145 and I couldn't afford that. I saw it had three bedrooms. I saw that it had potential and that I could put my stamp on it.
Speaker 5 00:36:14 Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:36:15 So was it just you and your daughter at this point?
Speaker 1 00:36:18 It was. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 00:36:19 So are you able to tell us about your then your partner? Who? Your daughter's father. Yeah. What's what's the backstory there then?
Speaker 1 00:36:27 So we weren't together when I bought my first house. Okay. Well, we were together for a long time, and then we split up.
Speaker 1 00:36:34 And then when we split up, I realized that I was pregnant. Yeah. And so he has been consistent. So we've co-parent it. Okay. but we've never lived together. So this house I moved into when when I moved in, it was just me and her. Okay. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:36:51 So given that, then what did this house represent for you at that time? What did you want it to do for you in your life, would you say?
Speaker 1 00:36:58 I always had this dream of a forever house or a house that my daughter or future children could grow up in, you know, a house they'd be like, oh, yeah, when we moved in. And, you know, I had my first party here. Some memories that could be attached to the house. And I knew my first house was my starter, whereas this one I knew I'd live in for most of my life, or at least a good proportion.
Speaker 2 00:37:25 How did you know that?
Speaker 1 00:37:27 Because it had the bones of what I wanted in a Victorian house.
Speaker 1 00:37:31 I knew I wanted it to be a Victorian house. Was that because I love Victorian architecture?
Speaker 5 00:37:35 Okay.
Speaker 1 00:37:37 I wanted it to to look.
Speaker 5 00:37:40 Quite.
Speaker 1 00:37:42 Big from the outside, but.
Speaker 2 00:37:44 For for a girl from a council flat like you described. Did that Victorian house represent something somehow for you?
Speaker 1 00:37:52 Maybe it did. Maybe it. It. Like I've made it. I've got somewhere. this is a and this was a solid house, you know, because I'd often walk down streets and look at houses and think, oh, that just looks like a proper solid house. and that's what this one looked like, even though it was pretty ugly at the time.
Speaker 2 00:38:14 So how many years have you been here?
Speaker 1 00:38:17 This year will be 26.
Speaker 2 00:38:18 Years, 26 years. So that's a lot longer than most people.
Speaker 5 00:38:21 Yeah, right.
Speaker 2 00:38:22 So what has staying put here allowed you that maybe moving wouldn't have done?
Speaker 1 00:38:29 It's allowed me to express my creativity over time, because I think sometimes people think particularly when they see my house or other houses on social media.
Speaker 1 00:38:39 Well, for me anyway, it didn't happen straight away. It was just my income that was paying the mortgage, was looking after a child and paying all the bills, so I couldn't do everything straight away. When I first moved in that awful yellow bathroom, which was really so tiny, you could see it on the the toilet and just touch every wall. And I bought a roll top bath in Under the arches somewhere in Walthamstow for £50. But the the bathroom, I didn't have the money to extend the bathroom, so that bath sat at one end of my living room for two years until I could save up money.
Speaker 5 00:39:22 To.
Speaker 1 00:39:22 Extend the.
Speaker 5 00:39:22 Bathroom.
Speaker 1 00:39:23 And bring that hefty thing upstairs. And it's still there. It's still in the bathroom upstairs. so it allowed me the time. And also, I didn't realize I was patience, but also the patience to let it evolve as my life evolved and as money evolved. because I'm very safe with how I use my money. So I didn't want to take out loads of different loans.
Speaker 1 00:39:50 So it really was about saving up money wherever possible and doing things bit by bit.
Speaker 2 00:39:56 So you've raised the money thing there. Why? Why you invest your money so consciously in this place? Yeah. And not in other areas of your life or in different ways.
Speaker 1 00:40:06 Because I was always told, and I don't know who told me this, that it's good to invest in property and property in London is always going to be a good investment. And I also thought about it in terms of legacy for mayor, for my daughter, that if there was one thing that I would be able to leave her, it would be this house or whatever if she sold it, whatever money came out of this house. And so it felt like a safe investment to do it. So that's that's why I invested and still invest in this, in this house, I think. And I've almost finished paying off my mortgage.
Speaker 2 00:40:43 Have you? Oh, good for you.
Speaker 1 00:40:44 Yeah. Again, I've been really I've been very careful about adding to my mortgage.
Speaker 2 00:40:51 Making overpayments.
Speaker 1 00:40:52 Making overpayments, that kind of thing, not taking out too many extension loans. so I remember when I took it out 25 years ago. So I was like, God, 25 years is such a long time. So yeah, Touchwood to in the next. By next year, I'll have finished.
Speaker 2 00:41:13 That's brilliant. Yeah, that's really good. Tell me about your social life in here. Yeah, because you're here on your own most of the time. But I can tell that it's quite a convivial place.
Speaker 1 00:41:22 Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:41:23 Tell us about that.
Speaker 1 00:41:24 It's definitely become the. It has, over the years been the party house. I think there's also something in me that I always wanted a big family. And that didn't work out for me. so having lots of people in the house is kind of a way that I compensate. And I'm a very sociable social creature anyway. So. And I am a homebody, so if I want to be so sure it's better to be social in my house that I have to go anywhere, then they go and I can just.
Speaker 1 00:41:52 I can just stay. So yeah, definitely. I've had at least four surprise birthday parties in this house for different people. Christmas has always been hosted here. Yeah. or just games nights, things like that. People come together in such a way that that's changed slightly. As I've become older, I've become more like, yeah, maybe I just want to be by myself for a bit. And my friend said the other day, because it was a joint kind of birthday's in January, and he said, yeah, I've got a load of drink in the house. We should all have a party at yours. And somebody else said, yeah, we should like that. Perhaps we shouldn't.
Speaker 2 00:42:33 Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:42:34 Because there's also that I have to do all the tidying up afterwards. It's not that much fun tidying up because everybody goes home with their doggy bags, and then I'm left with all the washing up and that. But but I do genuinely like it. There is a warmth to people coming in and as much as it.
Speaker 1 00:42:52 Yeah, it's all designed. It's it's comfortable. People don't feel like, oh, I can't sit on that chair or I can't do that. So yeah, it's important to me.
Speaker 2 00:43:02 And when you were showing me around earlier, you were suggesting that you don't tend to use the front room that much. You tend to use this kitchen dining space at the back and everyone just piles in here. Why does that happen? Do you think?
Speaker 1 00:43:13 I think the best part is always in the kitchen, because that's where the food and the drink is, right? So no one wants to be too far away from that. Yeah. And then the the table in my kitchen here is three meters long. So you can get a lot of people around this table. So I don't think it was a deliberate thing, but just people feel it was warm. It was comfortable. The music is playing. There's lots of chatting. You know, people are playing dominoes or cards or, charades or whatever. So what's the point? And the food's here.
Speaker 1 00:43:46 So I think that's why people stay in the kitchen. It's not that that room is is not accessible to people. It's just like, why am I moving here when everything is here? Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:43:58 Yeah. Okay. So your daughter Maya.
Speaker 1 00:44:01 Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:44:01 So you've given her an incredibly stable base, haven't you? Throughout her whole life thus far. What would you. What do you think this house means to her?
Speaker 1 00:44:11 I think it means home. So even though she doesn't, London is not her favourite place. When I say to her because I've considered moving and I've considered moving back to Hackney, actually, she's like, are you going to sell the house? But what am I going to do? And I'm like, but you don't live here. Yeah. But I think there is with some kids, it's like it's it's my grounding. It's where I've, I've grown up. It's what she knows the most. She came here when she was a year and a half. so even though she doesn't necessarily want to live here permanently, there is a sense of home and somewhere to come back to when I want to.
Speaker 2 00:44:47 I think that's it. It's still a secure base into adulthood, isn't it? I really think that.
Speaker 1 00:44:51 Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:44:51 Did you have that when you were growing up at all?
Speaker 1 00:44:53 Oh, yeah. Definitely. And and still have that. I mean, my parents only lived down the road. So still that and and also, you know, I still have the keys to their house. So even though I knock on the door, I don't have to knock on the door, at all. And again, in some households, I see that's not the case once you leave. You know, like, you might give the keys back or you'll knock on the door. But no, I want her to always feel like this is your home. Wherever you go, this is still your home that you can come back to. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:45:25 So how do you feel like you relate to, this area then in terms of your belonging? Because we're in Walthamstow. Yeah. What do you think about that?
Speaker 1 00:45:37 You know, I struggled with it for the longest time.
Speaker 1 00:45:39 I probably struggled with it for about 24 years.
Speaker 2 00:45:41 Really.
Speaker 1 00:45:42 Because I was so homesick for Hackney, that I really wanted to be there, but I was missing out on all the good stuff around Walthamstow. So the fact that I am within walking distance of Epping Forest, I can walk to the wetlands. I've got lots of greenery around me. Great transport links. I was kind of blinkered to all of that, because I had this sense of belonging somewhere else that I left when I was a teenager, and I'm in my 50s. You know, even to the point where I'm still thinking about moving back. But I have community here and I have familiarity, and I'm really grateful for that. So I think I will stay put for a while. I am, I want to. My aim is to retire abroad. I don't know where abroad that would be okay. And but I'm not going to move to another place in the UK. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 00:46:43 That's really fascinating, isn't it? The idea that you have, it sounds like you change your mindset.
Speaker 1 00:46:48 Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:46:49 Because that's really what was holding you back and connecting to it. Right.
Speaker 1 00:46:52 Yeah. Is this kind of nostalgia for something? And I'm sure if I went back to Hackney, it's not what I left behind. I left the over 40 years ago. So it's not the same. It's not the same place?
Speaker 2 00:47:06 No. What is it that you're holding on to then?
Speaker 1 00:47:09 I think it is just nostalgia. it's nothing really concrete, but it is my sense of belonging. You know, when people talk about sense of belonging or. What's your ethnicity? Where are you from? Hackney. And I still say that even though I haven't lived there for most of my life. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:47:30 It's almost like a place works itself into your bones somehow, isn't it? It's like, you know, someone who spends their life at sea. You can somehow see it in their gait, can't you? Yeah. It's it's. I feel it's like that. I imagine you probably walk a bit differently in Hackney, if you know what I mean.
Speaker 2 00:47:45 There's a familiarity to the streets and the routes.
Speaker 1 00:47:47 Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:47:48 You know.
Speaker 1 00:47:48 But I'm also really familiar here because I've lived in this borough for almost 30 years, you know, and I remember someone, a plumber came round to do some work, and he walked in and he was like, oh, wow. He said, your house looks like a house in Hackney. And I said, I don't know. You just made my heart smile. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:48:12 That's really funny.
Speaker 1 00:48:13 I said, that's a true compliment for me. He said, you know, I mean, I said, I know exactly what you mean.
Speaker 2 00:48:21 If you could pick up this house and put it in Hackney. Would you do that 100%? Yeah, right.
Speaker 1 00:48:25 I even know the areas that I would move to.
Speaker 2 00:48:28 Which areas would they be?
Speaker 1 00:48:29 So it would be Victoria Park.
Speaker 2 00:48:32 Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:48:32 With a house. The house overlooking the park? Yeah. or the Beauvoir or Stoke Newington? Well, the posh areas were not areas.
Speaker 6 00:48:43 That I grew up here.
Speaker 1 00:48:45 So there you go for nostalgia, right? Yeah. because that really beautiful areas in Hackney. But equally, actually, I would live next to Millfield Park. and that has changed a lot. But yeah those are the areas. And for me, actually, what's really important with whatever my next move is, is around nature and around water. So when I say about Victoria Park, there is a sense of I'd love to see greenery open my window and greenery is right beside me. Or definitely moving abroad. I have to be near water, I don't mind what kind of water? Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:49:28 Why? What does water do for you then? Do you?
Speaker 1 00:49:30 There's a sense of calm calmness. Yeah. I just think water is beautiful. It's serene. So. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:49:42 So you've talked about your Caribbean heritage today. Do you go to the Caribbean much?
Speaker 1 00:49:47 Yeah. I haven't been for a while. so my mom's from Saint Lucia. My dad was from Jamaica. and they're both beautiful islands, but interestingly, not the place that I'm looking for to to retire.
Speaker 2 00:50:02 Well, that's what I was going to ask you. So how connected do you feel to that as a place?
Speaker 1 00:50:08 I think very far removed. I was talking to someone about this. There is something very different about being black, British, Caribbean than it is about being Caribbean born and coming here. It's a real and that London centric feel. All of those things make up for who I am. So I have a love for my heritage, but the connection isn't necessarily there. Like, I must go back to there because I was brought up here, you know? But I do want to be somewhere hot. I don't know where. I'm not sure where that might be.
Speaker 2 00:50:52 It could be. You think you might, you know, see out your days in the warmth somewhere. Eventually.
Speaker 6 00:50:56 Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:50:56 Who wants to grow old in this old?
Speaker 6 00:51:01 Sorry.
Speaker 1 00:51:02 Not I.
Speaker 7 00:51:05 Get. I have this sense of.
Speaker 1 00:51:07 Longing for a simpler life, with land and food that I can take from my land and just water.
Speaker 1 00:51:16 That's. That's really all I need. It doesn't have to be. You know, sometimes people go back home and they build the biggest houses. Used to call them tiara, sort of like these big houses. And some of them put carpet in it. God knows why you need carpet in the Caribbean, but I think that's the sense of I've made it right. Yeah, but I don't want any of that, really. I just want something quite simple and somewhere that I can hang my art, I can listen to music and I can put her. I'm really looking forward to retiring and pottering around.
Speaker 2 00:51:53 Yeah, I love that. You're not the first person to describe that actually, yeah. And is there something about reduction as you get older?
Speaker 1 00:52:01 100%. And about what's important.
Speaker 2 00:52:04 Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:52:04 In life, if it's not all stuff around you, it doesn't mean that it wouldn't. I'm not saying it's sackcloth and ashes. I'm not saying it still has to look aesthetically pleasing for me, but it doesn't have to be huge.
Speaker 1 00:52:20 It has to be meaningful, and it has to feel comfortable. But there is something about there's something quite beautiful about peering back. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:52:30 Even for you. Because you're quite decorative, aren't you?
Speaker 1 00:52:32 I know, can you imagine? I don't know if I could do white walls, though. I definitely couldn't do minimalism, but maybe something a bit more rustic. Something in between. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 00:52:46 we did a podcast with Dan Pearson, who's a landscape designer, in Somerset, and I thought that was a really interesting example of slightly what you're talking about, where he's got quite a modest stone farmhouse on the side of a valley, and it's a bit like, imagine a skateboarder about to tackle a half pipe, right? So it's got amazing views through the valley, and he's all about the outdoors. So he's got a big garden, and he spends his days out there working with the land, which I think wouldn't be for everyone. But I suppose what struck me about it is that he lives really in tandem with the elements.
Speaker 2 00:53:25 So he's got an outdoor kitchen and they cook and eat outside all year round. Yeah. And they are out there, you know. Yeah. Pulling their own vegetables from the ground and cooking them and eating them. there's there's fire, there's air. They've got a swimming pond down at the the foot of the valley. I keep coming back to this thing about, you know, being in touch with the elements somehow.
Speaker 7 00:53:48 I really love that idea.
Speaker 1 00:53:49 And I think that speaks to me about what I'm talking about, that the elements are the most important thing. So it's not this very fancy stylized house, but it's what I see and what I am surrounded by that becomes more important. And I think for me.
Speaker 7 00:54:07 That's part of.
Speaker 1 00:54:08 Living somewhere hot is being able to be out in that and experiencing that all year round. Yeah, yeah, I really am looking forward to it. To that day, it's been a dream for a very long time.
Speaker 2 00:54:23 Okay.
Speaker 1 00:54:24 Actually, but there's also this dream that if I find something ramshackle and big that it becomes this artist hub, you know? Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:54:34 A retreat where artists can come. And I love that because, of course, that's still a love of mine, even if it's a pared down space.
Speaker 2 00:54:43 Why is art important to you, then?
Speaker 1 00:54:47 I can't imagine a space without art. That's why I can't do minimalism. I couldn't imagine just blank walls I. It gives me comfort. It kind of hugs me having it. I think it would just look quite barren without it. So wherever I go, my art will go with me. absolutely.
Speaker 2 00:55:09 Yeah. So in this reduction process, maybe the furniture is not so important, but the art is the thing.
Speaker 1 00:55:14 Absolutely. 100%. Yeah, 100%.
Speaker 2 00:55:17 I often ask people about their routines and rituals. So what do your routines look like and how are you? Quite a routine type person or not?
Speaker 1 00:55:26 I suppose routine for me is often dictated by Reggie, my cockapoo. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:55:33 Speak of the devil.
Speaker 6 00:55:34 Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:55:36 He's busy, isn't he?
Speaker 6 00:55:37 On time?
Speaker 1 00:55:41 yeah. So he he dictates a lot of that routine.
Speaker 1 00:55:44 And it means that I. I walk a lot more, and I like walking. So that's part of my daily routine is walking on a Sunday. one of the things I like to do is to come down and make myself a drip coffee. I don't have coffee any other day of the week. Oh, wow. I'm a real tea person, actually. In fact, too much tea. and it's very posey. But there was something about the dripping of the coffee, which is part of that routine. And and I'm putting the record player on and having something. I have a kind of gospel or jazz in the background. It's something about slowing down because my life is very fast throughout the week. I'm doing it. I'm doing a podcast. I'm organizing a workshop, I'm doing some travel. So there's not. It's always, always, always, always fast. So Sunday to me and Sunday used to be a day I didn't like because it was too slow.
Speaker 2 00:56:42 Oh, really?
Speaker 6 00:56:43 Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:56:43 And I think as I've got older, I appreciate the slowness of it.
Speaker 1 00:56:50 So having that that drip coffee, having and just sitting down on the sofa in the, in the kitchen is part of my routine. Yeah, definitely. Besides that, there's no routine but madness and chaos and running around.
Speaker 2 00:57:06 So are you an energy person?
Speaker 1 00:57:08 I am, and I went through a stage in life where I thought it was again, this is about my people pleasing. I was in a relationship where slowing down was seen as being lazy. Oh, And so I was constantly on the go, on the go. And then, then I had to deprogram myself. That actually rest is really important. it's important to creativity, but it's just important to survival that you take rest. And that took a good few years to deprogram that. This is not lazy. And sitting down and even putting the TV on and watching it is absolutely okay and getting proper sleep is okay.
Speaker 2 00:57:53 That's that's really interesting. So when you were young, were you high energy or were you quite calm?
Speaker 6 00:57:59 I think that was quite calm.
Speaker 2 00:58:00 Okay, so it sounds like this particular relationship then revs you up in some way.
Speaker 1 00:58:04 Yeah, I mean I, I, I'm on the go all the time and I do like to keep busy, but I think that relationship really kind of switched it to sleep. I was told that sleep was a waste of time, which is ridiculous.
Speaker 6 00:58:21 Wow.
Speaker 1 00:58:21 And they didn't need much sleep, but also that I was looked at negatively. And then I started to look at myself negatively, like, okay, what should I be doing? Should I be sitting? And even when that relationship ended, I had to stop myself from thinking that way. You know, that it was that it was okay. I'm going to watch tut on TV and there's nothing that doesn't make me a bad person. It's a bit like, you know, during lockdown when everybody was baking bread or or finding a new job or a new career. And if you hadn't done that, then you wasted your time.
Speaker 6 00:58:56 Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:58:56 That's nonsense.
Speaker 1 00:58:57 Yeah. You know, the fact if we even survived through the lockdown was a great achievement. It didn't have to come out. Having got this new career or made something different. Yeah. But I'm in a good space now where I am good at resting.
Speaker 2 00:59:14 Okay. That's good. Have you had times when you've burned out a little bit, then?
Speaker 1 00:59:18 100%.
Speaker 2 00:59:19 Yeah. What happens then?
Speaker 1 00:59:22 Well, it's not good. I went into therapy because I was burning out a lot. Because the people pleasing was also about making sure everybody else was okay, and not that I was I and my my saying was, I haven't got time for that. I haven't got time to be unwell. I mean, what kind of a nonsense saying is that I haven't got time to rest? I've got I haven't got time. So this was like 20 to maybe 24. 2024. I went into therapy because I said, you know what? You have to have time. You need to make time because if you don't make time for yourself, then you're not going to have to make time for anybody else.
Speaker 1 00:59:58 And it was the best thing that I ever did. I also started to eat better. I stopped drinking because I found that during lockdown, drinking was became a bit of a pastime. And, you know, I'm I'm middle class now, so I can have a glass of wine whilst I'm cooking and I can have a glass of wine whilst I'm having. But then I was having a glass of wine every day and, you know, it's it's okay. It's not beer is it. It's not, it's not spirits. No, it's not okay. And my cholesterol was quite high. So I stopped alcohol about a year and a half ago. Don't I don't drink alcohol at all. And I lost a lot of weight. My cholesterol went down, and also my thinking wasn't as blurry anymore and therapy really helped as well. So yeah.
Speaker 2 01:00:50 There seems to be a real thing, doesn't there, about midlife being a time to sort of take stock of things and figure stuff out? Yeah. Have you? Are you going through that process a bit then?
Speaker 1 01:00:59 I think I went through that process at 50.
Speaker 1 01:01:01 At 40 I was like, yeah, I'm an adult. No one can tell me anything. When I got to 50, I was like, oh my God, I'm old. It's downhill now. Yeah. And it kind of is downhill because let's be honest, I'm not going to live another 50 years. So we've got to that point where hopefully I live a long time, but I probably won't live to 100. And that made me really start to rethink things in terms of life, what I wanted to do, my marriage at the time. I'm divorced now.
Speaker 2 01:01:32 How long were you married for?
Speaker 1 01:01:34 three and a half years together. For five years. Okay, so I got married quite late in life.
Speaker 2 01:01:40 Yeah.
Speaker 1 01:01:42 And I just thought. No, I need to do things differently because we don't get another chance at life.
Speaker 2 01:01:49 So did you call it off then?
Speaker 1 01:01:50 Oh, absolutely.
Speaker 2 01:01:52 If you could summarize why you did that. What would you say?
Speaker 1 01:01:57 We're very different people, and I was in the height of my people pleasing mode, which was not doing my health or my well-being very good at all.
Speaker 1 01:02:10 And so, yeah, I decided it wasn't. This was not for me. And it was the best thing I had ever done. Actually, I say the best part of my marriage was the divorce.
Speaker 2 01:02:26 Oh, wow.
Speaker 1 01:02:27 Yeah, unfortunately.
Speaker 2 01:02:29 So that's that's a strong statement, isn't it? So. So looking back on it, what do you think made you get into that relationship in the first place then. And how did you emerge a different person.
Speaker 1 01:02:40 I think I was we came around at the right time, I was ready for a relationship and the idea of marriage and all that that would bring. So I think that's why I did it. I think it's a real Capricorn trait. I'm a Capricorn, which is that we will keep going, keep going, keep going, and then we'll get to a point where, like, this is the full stop and there is no more. There is no more compromise. There is no more. I'm done. And that took a while. Most people might think it didn't take a while because it was only three and a half years, but, it did.
Speaker 1 01:03:16 And then I thought, I can't do this anymore. This just isn't working. And so, yeah, that's, that's I think it was that point that happens a lot for me. I want to stop doing that. I want to make choices sometimes a bit quicker. But absolutely when I get to the full stop, we're done. Yeah. And so once that was Decided I was okay with it. Actually.
Speaker 2 01:03:45 Are you single now then?
Speaker 1 01:03:46 I am.
Speaker 2 01:03:47 Happily so. Would you say?
Speaker 1 01:03:49 I am, I think, because I have standards. I was outside a chip shop the other day, and, Reggie was with me, so we couldn't go in. So I was waiting for the chips, and this guy came along and he said, oh, it's all right. I like dogs, I like dogs. I said, okay, so he was talking to Reggie. He's like, I like dogs. I've got one at home. Yeah, she's cooking my dinner.
Speaker 2 01:04:14 Oh, wow.
Speaker 1 01:04:15 I said, mate, what? That's not funny.
Speaker 1 01:04:18 Goodbye. But he thought he could come up to a woman that he doesn't know. And he's like, oh. And I'm like, there's too much of of that that women are disposable or women are here to enhance men in some way or otherwise they're worthless. I mean, it might feel a bit deep, but it's like, unless I can find someone who's on the same level as me. Then I'm okay with that. And you know. Unfortunately, I'm finding a lot of women my age or in their 40s, upwards. I get into that stage of like, I'm quite happy to be by myself and to have peace rather than connect to the stereotype that I have. I'm only whole if I'm with someone, that doesn't mean that I don't. Wouldn't love to be in a relationship, but it has to be a good relationship.
Speaker 2 01:05:09 Yeah, it's an absolutely valid thing, isn't it? To be happy on your own, I think. Yeah. Absolutely. Right.
Speaker 1 01:05:15 Yeah.
Speaker 2 01:05:17 when you were married then.
Speaker 2 01:05:18 Did you guys live here? Yes. Okay.
Speaker 1 01:05:21 Yeah.
Speaker 2 01:05:22 Has that changed the way that you see this house, then? That relationship being a part of these walls and this experience here.
Speaker 1 01:05:29 In the sense that I redecorated everywhere. Once it was over there? Maybe. Yes.
Speaker 2 01:05:35 Did you? That's interesting.
Speaker 1 01:05:37 But it was my house anyway. Before. Before he moved in. But there were things that we did together because I wanted it to feel like his home, even though it was my house. so there was a I don't know if purging is the is the right word, but of renewing refreshing. so it became mine again, and that I felt comfortable, within it too. So yeah. So there were some key elements that have completely changed. Yeah. In the house.
Speaker 2 01:06:10 Scene a lot. This place, hasn't it?
Speaker 1 01:06:12 It has.
Speaker 2 01:06:13 It really has. I mean, you know, you've brought up your daughter here. Yeah. You know, you've had, a marriage come and go in this space.
Speaker 2 01:06:22 Yeah. You have invested. Sounds like most of the pennies that you have into it. Given all of that, how do you summarize what this place means and what it's represented in your life, I suppose.
Speaker 1 01:06:36 So what this place means for me simply is its home. It feels like we keep coming back to this word safe. It feels like me, you know? So it's not like walking in the door and thinking, oh, oh, I've put this here and here because this looks good on social media. It's here because I like it and it represents me. I often talk about I dress like my house, and my house dresses like me. It's it's interwoven into my personality. So it doesn't matter to me whether someone else likes it or not, because it feels comfortable and it feels like, you know, you know, with whatever's going on in the world, the fact that I can open the door and come in and just leave that heaviness outside, yeah, yeah, that's what home feels like to me.
Speaker 2 01:07:28 Yeah. So for people that are listening to this and not watching it.
Speaker 1 01:07:32 Yeah.
Speaker 2 01:07:33 You're wearing a hat. Yeah. What sort of hat is it?
Speaker 1 01:07:36 It's based on It's the Buffalo Hat by Vivienne Westwood. So if you remember that Vivienne Westwood kinda feral buffalo type style hat. I always wear hats.
Speaker 2 01:07:48 Why do you always wear hats?
Speaker 1 01:07:50 I love hats. I have a whole collection of hats. I don't know, just. Just. Do you hardly ever see me without a hat?
Speaker 2 01:07:56 But you look extremely cool. You've got your Vivienne Westwood hat on. You've got your, you know, heavy frame glasses. Yeah. The way that you present yourself to the world is obviously important to you.
Speaker 1 01:08:06 Yeah.
Speaker 2 01:08:08 How do you explain that? Why is that important? The way that you dress and present yourself.
Speaker 1 01:08:15 I dress for me. So I don't dress for the outside world. I think I'd said earlier that when I was younger, I turned a jumper into and wore it as some trousers. Yeah.
Speaker 1 01:08:30 My friend reminded me that the other day. I don't really care whether people like it or not, but I don't think that I am eccentric or I stand out, but of course I stand out. So there are people who follow me on social media and instantly recognized me like, oh, you're Natasha, I really want blah blah blah, but I'm just walking around being me, honestly, about being me, about what I feel comfortable in. I love colour, I love hats. Yeah. So it's not about whether the world accepts me or what am I presenting to the world. What I'm presenting is authentically me. Really? Yeah.
Speaker 2 01:09:08 Thank you so much, Natasha.
Speaker 1 01:09:10 It's been a pleasure.
Speaker 2 01:09:10 It's been really interesting. I've really enjoyed it today. Thanks for showing us around as well. Yeah, I know it's a very intimate thing to do, so I've loved it.
Speaker 4 01:09:19 Thank you, thank you.