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Welcome to "Visionary Voices" the podcast where we dive into the minds of business owners, founders, executives, and everyone in between.
Each episode brings you face-to-face with the leading lights of industry and innovation.
Join us as we uncover the stories behind the success and the lessons learned along the way.
Whether you're climbing the corporate ladder or just starting your business journey, these are the conversations you need to hear - packed with visionary voices and insights.
Let's begin.
So welcome to the show.
Thank you so much for taking the time today.
Could you give us a top level view about what it is that you're working on right now and
your journey so far?
Absolutely, thank you for having me um Yeah, so I'm building an offshore staffing company
right now.
We're helping us companies uh Find talent internationally outside of the US You know we
are Trucking along and growing and right now.
I'm also trying to really fine-tune our fulfillment our product our service internally
building
Refining systems and processes adding subtracting adjusting um My day-to-day is very
heavily focused on Serving my clients as best as I can um So there's a lot of team
building uh Initiatives I'm taking we just did a company off-site and so we're kind of
Rethinking how to kind of go about the business, you know getting from zero to one is one
thing and then getting from one to two is another
and then two to four, right?
So every stage we have to kind of reorient and so that's kind of where I'm currently at.
Yeah.
Amazing, man.
Amazing.
I love to, go back to the, back to the start.
Right.
So in your kind of previous ventures and companies, I love to learn what you were doing
there and what that looked like.
Cause obviously that's now shaped how you're approaching this current business model and
what you're doing here.
So I love to kind go back and learn, you know, what actually happened back then and what
did you learn from it?
Yeah, mean like this could be, there's like a long story, there's a long version of the
story and there's a short version of the story.
I'm gonna stick with the short version, but basically high level, my last venture I rolled
up private label brands on Amazon.
So we purchased companies from individuals who were Amazon sellers and we bought them
outright, 100 % ownership and then brought them in-house.
and scaled them with our internal systems, processes, and our teams.
um So we acquired about 20 brands.
We did a merger with a big company.
We ultimately have about 50 brands under our umbrella.
um We raised capital to make these acquisitions.
So this is very much an &A play.
uh And so we raised over $120 million to go out there and be able to buy these companies.
um
I was, yeah, and so that's what we did, you know, I'm keeping it short, but in that
venture, it's very investor heavy.
I'm one of four co-founders.
There's lenders involved.
There's a big cap table.
And then when you have all this money, you hire a lot of, you build out your teams.
so there's...
six, seven different departments.
Each one has a department head, a managerial team, and then individual contributors.
But what does that do?
And then you need this to support 50 brands.
But it creates a lot of bureaucracy.
It creates a lot of bureaucracy because there's so many cooks in the kitchen, between the
four co-founders, between the investors and lenders.
The merger, the...
the acquisitions that are not in the same verticals, um the management teams.
It's easy to create bureaucracy when you raise capital or if you just have a lot of
revenue and you think you need to hire a big team.
But it taught me that a lean, mean team is great, uh is very valuable.
And that experience taught me that I want to have a company that's fully bootstrapped.
something that focuses on cash flow, a lean, mean team, keeping it light because you can
make decisions so you can eliminate bureaucracy or hopefully never get there.
It's easier for companies to get into a bureaucratic environment.
And once that happens, I feel like that's a downfall of many companies.
Now, some companies figure it out and create the proper systems in place so that
You don't have this bureaucracy at scale.
Like Amazon is a great example of that.
um I think, know, Bezos talks about that.
But having too many cooks in the kitchen, whether it's within a department, whether it's
within a small team, whether it's within an entire organization, is extremely dangerous.
And it's something that I'm really focused on never having again in my life.
Like in my life, including in my personal life too.
uh So yeah, that's where I'm at.
no, definitely.
And it makes a lot of sense, right?
Because, you know, if you want to make decisions quickly and pushing through quick and
pivot and do all the things that you need to do when you're running a business, you know,
it's hard to do if you have to go through many, you know, layers or, you know, talk to
everyone, get everyone on the same page before making that move.
So I completely, completely get you on, on that side of it.
I mean, how did you find going from, you know, having
this capital behind you or all this money that was raised to then bootstrapping a
business, right?
Because two very different types of businesses, right?
And so how have you found that transition and how are you managing that now from a
bootstrap point of view rather than a funded company point of view?
Yeah, mean, so first off, like when you raise all this capital, uh there are certain terms
you set originally when you sign on uh with a lead investor and lenders.
basically, in our situation, which is most situations, we are limited just to a salary,
and your salary grows based on performance of the business.
And then of course we all have equity, but...
uh no profit distribution and so know profits stay within the company to reinvest you know
with the intention to reinvest into future acquisitions to grow the equity right and so
basically in that in that setup you you you really you make all your money on the exit uh
but you don't like along the way you don't you don't get really as much of a incentive
throughout the way except for the salary uh
And so, with that also, you can't take that money and use it for another venture.
So as a co-founder, if you want to have multiple companies, the money that you raise for
that one company, excuse me, the money that you make in that one company stays in that one
company.
um You can't really have the flexibility to invest somewhere else and allocate capital
elsewhere.
And so for me, it's very important.
I'm in real estate.
um
I have real estate investments, I'm in the markets, uh and also I try out new ventures all
the time.
And I like to try new things.
So having control, it's a control thing.
And when you bootstrap, all that, and then you only have, I set up a criteria, like I only
have one partner, I have a partner in this new venture, but it's just me and him.
And we could do whatever we see fit.
uh
with that cash, with that profit.
Yeah.
Yeah, no, for sure.
I guess it's more in alignment to how you want to operate, right?
It's you have that control.
You can make the decisions you want to make and then you can go from there really, which
is really cool.
I mean, I love to talk about your, you know, the current company.
So you've gone from kind of zero to seven figures in just a couple of years.
So you're seeing some really great growth in that realm with the new startup.
So I love to dive into that, right?
What's responsible for you achieving?
this rapid growth in just a couple of years.
Yeah, mean, way less than a couple years, honestly.
We've been in business just under 18 months, I would say, but really like a true like
maybe 13, 14 months.
um Yeah, we're well over seven figures now.
It's been, I think it's this, definitely, we're touching on bureaucracy, like we are able
to move quick.
That's definitely a big factor, but also just, I mean, let's contribute it to this.
My partner and I compliment each other very well.
um He manages exactly half the organization.
I manage exactly the other half and we both do it very well.
um he knows certain things that I don't know.
there's not a lot of skill overlap, which is great because I can lean on him on certain
things and he can lean on me on other things.
There's been a lot of founder-led growth.
us kind of going out there and just bulldozing our way to where we are now and getting in
clients.
I'm sure you know what I mean by that.
You know, like when you're providing a service or you have an offer, m where do you, you
know, it's not, it's not magic.
know, leads don't just come from thin air.
You have to create demand from nothing.
And so you almost have to just bulldoze your way there and that's what we've done.
We've also, we also both come from a recruiting background.
From my last organization, we recruited 150 people offshore.
so, and he himself also has recruited much more offshore actually.
em He's got a background specifically in recruiting companies.
He's hired over 500 plus.
So we have the recruiting system and the hiring process dialed down.
So in terms of fulfillment, our service quality is incredible.
If you go on Trustpilot, we only have five star reviews.
m Like genuinely, genuinely, like we provide a really good service.
um I am the point of contact for all of our clients, so anything that any client has an
issue with, they're dealing with me directly.
And I'm always on my phone, I'm always online, I'm always plugged in, um ready to give a
good service quality.
So I think that's helped a lot.
We're not bureaucratic, we can make decisions quickly.
Yeah, and definitely my experience uh Prior to this leveraging that into into this
business has helped a lot uh I come from a family of entrepreneurs and so I feel like I
have you know I have two older brothers and one younger brother and my father and you
they're all entrepreneurs and so I feel like I have in a business coach I have like three
or four business coaches at home uh
That definitely helps.
Yeah, because I think it's having that support network, right?
It's so important.
mean, when I started my first business, because I didn't know anyone in business at all.
So for me, was just like, I saw only a couple of grand a month, like just survive that
type of thing.
And it wasn't until I got exposed to high level entrepreneurs who were doing some huge
numbers and I was like, oh, that's possible.
And then they became my support network essentially.
And I think when you're growing and scaling your business, it's so important to surround
yourself with those types of people.
mean, everyone knows, you need to do that.
You need to have a good network around you, but especially in entrepreneurship where, you
know, can have those days where you just don't know what's going on.
And sometimes you just need to talk to someone who understands the game and just be able
to kind of let that out.
And the thing is just so important when you're scaling a company to have that there.
Yeah, for sure.
And so you know, we're talking about bulldozing our way to scale and grow a company.
So I mean, what are those actions like on your side?
Like how have you managed to do that?
Because on our side, the one thing we optimize for is just, how can we just have more
conversations with people who are our ideal clients, right?
If we can just have more of those conversations, then naturally, as a business, we should
grow.
So like, how are you guys, you know, getting there and seeing that growth?
I'm personally very much an extrovert.
um And so I go to conferences, I go to events.
I just try to get out there as much as possible.
I go to business dinners.
I talk to everyone.
uh And that has gotten me to more events and more opportunities to go to conferences.
uh early on, I established um very strong referral partners.
that were honestly the catalyst to the business.
And that really helped a lot.
I'll shout out the Nucleus Network for that.
They're a company based out of New York.
helped me get probably my, know, probably out of the first 20 deals we did, they're
probably, you know, referred us seven of those 20 deals, I would say.
um Huge catalyst.
And...
just talking to people, calling up my network, um shamelessly asking for help, especially
early on.
my offer is really a win-win-win situation.
We're helping companies who already need a hire.
We're doing the hiring for them.
We're hiring great talent.
We're finding people jobs.
Everyone's winning.
We're finding people jobs.
The clients are getting good talent, full-time employees.
and they need that recruiter to help them do it and we're getting paid.
It's a win-win-win situation.
It's people business.
Referrals, content, I have a content team that focuses on my LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram
pages.
I have an executive writer that focuses on translating my voice and my tone to my
audience.
I have a sales team.
as well in the appointment setting team.
And we're working on building funnels and systems and paid ads uh now.
We didn't do that early on.
Now is the time, I think.
And it's like, yeah, various ways.
Yeah, no, for sure.
And I, you what you said about referral partners is, is like, it's so important.
Um, cause it's, to be the same thing with us, right?
When we were just getting started, a lot of the initial clients we had were just through
these referral partners that we managed to grow and just people that we knew were
basically, um, that sent work our way.
And, um, you know, it gave us the kick that we needed to then start, start growing and
scaling.
So I think it's a similar story, you know, with, with yourself, as you said.
um And then is it the reason why you're investing into your marketing and sales now is
because obviously reach like the revenue levels where you have the capital to invest.
And I think that's the cool thing with bootstrapping is that you get to a point where you
then start self-sustaining, right?
And start growing yourself that way rather than initially taking on all this capital.
So you can then do all these marketing activities.
But then again, right, then you got the whole problem with having funding anyway.
That's exactly right.
It's really cool.
In the beginning, you're like, every dollar matters.
um Yeah.
But now that we have cash flow, we're reinvesting heavily into the marketing out into
Legion.
And it's nice because it's not coming out of my pocket.
oh
Yeah, definitely.
Definitely.
For sure.
For sure.
Um, okay, cool.
And then because the company is based on, you know, like outsource talent.
So you're working in a lot of different kind of countries and spread across a lot of
different places.
Like, how do you manage that from a company standpoint?
Right.
Because ultimately you need to, you know, be able to talk to so many different markets,
let's say, um, overall, like, like how have you.
done that through your messaging and your processes because, know, for example, for
myself, we operate in, you know, the UK and US mainly, but we want to start expanding to
other countries as well, right?
Because we can definitely add some more value, but how we go about it has been a bit of a
tricky one, right?
So how have you guys structured your systems and process internally to work that one out?
Absolutely.
mean like, so you have like one hiring process, right?
And you know, we started hiring out of Nigeria first.
And Nigeria proved out to be an incredible source of talent, by the way.
But you know, they have a different holiday calendar that they observe, right?
Right?
So like pay time off is different in Nigeria than it is in Colombia.
And so we have to make that adjustment if we want to source from somewhere else.
There's also different
There are different requirements to be compliant from hiring from both of those locales.
The currency conversion rates are different.
So when you're paying people, like onboarding onto our platform, some countries can't
onboard to our platform, some countries can.
So it's like, do the payments, the payment systems align with what we have internally?
Or do we need to adjust?
But also, when we go out about recruiting,
certain job boards are better for certain countries than others because the talent pool is
used to sending it, know, applying for jobs through a certain job portal, right?
Like LinkedIn is very big, but maybe it's not big in a certain country and it isn't
another.
And maybe Indeed is bigger there, you know, maybe you're getting higher quality applicants
from Indeed versus LinkedIn.
So it's just those adjustments.
However, what we do to bypass all of that, really to like, you know, get through that
learning curve,
is we have a boots on the ground recruiter in every locale, in every country that we hire
from.
So this way, they've been around, they have experience.
ah That's kind of how we make the adjustments.
Yeah, no, it's interesting is, you know, having someone having someone there, right, to
manage that process, because ultimately they, they'll have all the knowledge needed, I
guess, to run that, that division in that, in that country, basically.
And so instead of you trying to, trying to learn it yourself, you could just hire someone
in that area to, manage it for you.
So is that the approach that you've taken to expand across all these different countries
and everything?
Exactly, yeah.
Like, you know, maybe we would begin on our own and then try to see if we needed boots on
the ground.
most of the, know, but we like to have boots on the ground everywhere.
Definitely.
Definitely.
Um, one thing I'd love to get your take on is, know, how you guys are implementing things
like AI and all this new technology coming out.
Because I think in the, in the staffing industry specifically, it is very much people
base, right?
But then at the same time is, you know, is there a place for things like AI and
automations and all these new workflows you can build is a place for it as well.
So how are you guys implementing that technology today?
Um, so obviously like I guess internally and also externally within the business.
Yeah, I mean, we're using AI in both recruiting and in lead gen.
uh So in lead gen, uh you when you build a funnel and you capture a lead and you try to
nurture that lead and you try to book an appointment, right, there are certain things that
AI agents can do now that improve show rates and conversion rates.
uh Whether it's uh sending reminders, you know, an hour before the call automatically
through SMS.
or sending follow-ups in a certain cadence, or adjusting the text so it's more, it's
higher conversion based on the type of lead.
uh Or if it's a lead that came in the pipe seven months ago and is being retargeted on its
own through the AI agent and converting into book calls, right?
That's one way you can use AI automation.
um And then on the recruiting side, you can only imagine what it can do on the recruiting
side.
uh
fast match placements, extract data across multiple job boards and find the keywords that
you're looking for that match your job description.
There's a lot of capabilities on the recruiting side too to not only speed up the
recruiting process but also to uh find better quality applicants.
Hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, for sure.
Cause it's, it's so cool what you can do now because I remember, um, you know, I worked in
the kind of staffing industry for about a year and a half and this was as, as AI was
starting to come out.
Um, and so I was seeing a lot of the old processes that they're doing, right.
Going through all the CVs, going through a lot, like doing a lot of manual tasks.
And now I look back and I'm like, you could literally automate 99 % of, of that process.
I guess the tricky thing is, is within the people's business is how much do you actually.
automate and how much do need to keep like a human to human interaction, let's Um, cause I
think that's going to be the interesting balance, especially in the staffing industry
itself is like, do you, how do you maintain that balance where you have enough automation
to be obviously competitive, efficient, et cetera.
But then at the same time, not take away the human element of placing people and the
impact and all these different things as well.
Yeah, and like to your point, like, you know, there's a lot of AI interview products out
there, which we don't really like, honestly.
em We haven't adopted that yet in our process intentionally though, because we think like,
that first and second round interview that we do, it's gotta be with a human.
there's, there's a certain thing you learn when you're dealing with a person, obviously
we're humans, you you can tell their attitude, you could tell.
um their video audio quality for example you could tell you know uh a bit about if they
would be a good culture fit or not and you can tell that really quickly on an interview by
the way and I'm not sure AI can do that they can maybe qualify the candidate but can they
make an intuitive decision on if this person is going to be fitting for that particular
client in that company right like
We also have the element of, we have the background of knowing the client, And knowing the
team and what they're kind of like.
And that's, you know, we're not just matching skill sets, we're also matching culture.
so, stuff to do with AI.
Yeah, yeah, I guess there's there's a type of intuition that comes with it.
You know, when you have all the context or the, or the conversations you've had with the
client.
So, you know, you sometimes you can't put it into words, but you just know what it is that
they're looking for.
And that's something you could, guess you can't really, you know, send over to AI to, take
over as well.
Okay, awesome.
I'd love to change gears a little bit and talk more about like your journey specifically.
So, you know, over like the entrepreneurship journey, you know, running a company that's
been funded and obviously bootstrapping this one and scaling it quickly.
I guess what's been some of the most influential moments that's shaped your career, right?
Any defining, maybe setbacks, failures, et cetera, which pivoted your mindset, let's say,
to get you to that next level.
Because I think during the journey, there's so many things that happen, right?
And in the moment, don't know.
It feels like everything's falling apart.
And then you look back and it all connects, if that makes sense, like that the journey
then connects up.
like, you know, went through this to get to this point here.
So it would be interesting to know for you, like what.
what was there and what actually happened.
Yeah, I mean, I'm 28 years old.
I've been really like an entrepreneur for the last 10 years, but it's funny.
There's a few distinct moments that have like, there's, I can go back to when I was 18
years old and something that happened then, and I want to touch on that.
ah I'm gonna start with that example, then I have another example.
There's two things.
There's a lot of things that happen, but there's two things that just come to mind.
All right, so.
You know, when I was 18, again, I'm gonna keep it this short story version, I got involved
with someone who had me go out there and sell a particular product and raise capital for
it, for investors to make money and make a return on their investment.
When I was 18 years old, I didn't know anything.
And I went out and I tried to start raising capital and...
My dad, my father was like, I need to meet this person.
What exactly are you doing?
need to understand what's going on.
He comes over, the person I'm working for, and my father speaks to him.
I'm 18 years old at this point.
My dad asked him a few questions, smelled bullshit, and basically told that person in
front of my face, you're never allowed to see my son again.
You're barred from seeing my child, my son, my child.
I never saw that person again and then he actually ended up going to jail for fraud.
And I was too oblivious or ignorant to see that when I was working with him.
This was like a few month thing.
I wasn't working with for a while.
I didn't know what I was doing.
I was 18.
And so that taught me not to be too excited about anything because when I was young I got
excited about a lot of things like
I just get excited, you know, I hear something, I get excited, money, da da da, work,
hustle, da.
But that excitement clouded my judgment and made me illogical.
And so, you know, it's hard to sit kind of like...
It was difficult to see clearly because I was so excited and I just wanted to do, do, do
and go, go, go.
And so that lesson tamed my excitement, right?
So I stopped getting overexcited and that allows me to kind of sit there and question
things and think clearly.
So my father was right.
And...
That was the first lesson and now, like if you know me personally, I question everything.
And it's not because I'm suspicious or anything, it's just because I need to understand
this thing before I make a decision on it.
Like I have this thing where I never get closed on the first call.
You know, we work online, there's a lot of offers out there.
I'm not a one call closed guy, I'm sorry.
I'm just not.
Because I don't make decisions based off of excitement.
I need to understand what's going on.
So.
And that's also true for anyone who's playing the stock market or meme coin market.
Right?
Like, important, you don't just buy the thing that someone tells you to buy because you're
going to make a million dollars.
I've definitely done that before.
Same.
So, yeah, and then in my last venture, that was really like my PhD in business, I would
say.
I feel like this experience, raising all this money and buying all these brands and having
this big team uh was like my PhD in business.
It taught me what I like and what I don't like in a business.
It taught me in a business model.
Tell me what I like and don't like in a business model.
I established a lot of criteria in it and allowed me to see other business models for what
they are and evaluate other business models and what's a good business, what's not a good
business.
um You know, taught me a lot about inventory management.
um Do I want a business with inventory or not?
Do I, you know, what margin profile am I looking for in a business and why?
um Overhead costs, right?
Operating costs, working capital.
So, you know, like, would you rather have a $10 million business with 10 % margins or a $2
million business with 50 % margins?
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, no, I'm in complete agreement there.
You know, it's quite interesting seeing, you know, lot of these, these tech companies and
I've worked with a lot of kind of B2B SaaS funded, like VC funded companies.
And it's so interesting, you know, the way they operate is, you know, they're always
trying to push, like they have to push obviously, because you're, you've got investors to
answer to all the time.
But the same time, right, you kind of speak to the founders and like, they're not making
anything like that.
They're really not taking anything out of the business.
I mean, they can't.
Um, and then the equity is also diluted way, way down now as well.
So again, even if you get that exit, it's still not anything that's significant.
And so like it's interesting now is the service based businesses, right?
Where you can have, especially with AI and automation now, I mean, we, you know, we've got
a couple, a couple of employees back.
probably four or five years ago, we'll need to have at least 10 to kind of do what we're
doing.
So our margins are way higher than they would have been before.
And because of that, we're taking home really good margins overall.
And it's like take home.
So it's actually in your bank account.
You can see the money, you can take it out.
And it has such a big impact for sure in the way you run the business, the way you operate
the business.
And then also if you do go for the exit a little bit later on, obviously it's gonna be
way, way better overall as well.
So I agree, think if you can have that business, then it makes sense.
Yeah, like buy versus build, right?
Bootstrapping, you know, like, okay.
I mean, yeah, exactly.
I also talk about like making money as a, in an LLC versus a W2 employee.
Like if you make $200,000 a year in a business that you own, that's an LLC, versus
$200,000 a year as a W2, they're two different things.
Very, very different things, by the way.
So, 200k you're getting taxed 35-40 % as W-2.
200k as a business owner, you can probably write off most of that and take home the full
amount.
Yeah, for sure.
For sure.
Amazing.
you know, one of the, one of the final questions we always ask guests in the show is if
you can go back to your 18 year old self, you know, what three lessons would you take?
But I think we've already covered those things where we spoke about the lessons before.
So I want to change it a little bit.
Um, and it's a new question.
I want to start adding into these episodes, which is if you could start one business right
now, what would that one business be?
You know, what ideas have you had recently where you're like, do you know what?
There is a gap here.
There's something I'm seeing.
Um, what would that business be?
Hmm.
I'm so, so, my blonder's on with my current business.
haven't thought about that.
That's good.
That's good focus to be honest.
I have a bigger list of businesses I wouldn't start.
oh
I mean, it'll be good to know some of those as well, to be honest.
Yeah, section 8 housing is one that I'm looking into actually.
It has to do with real estate.
I mean, it's all real estate.
a different kind of a real estate business, but it cash flows with minimal capital
requirements.
So really, anyone can kind of get started with that versus becoming a real estate
developer.
need hundreds of thousands of dollars in certain areas to build new construction.
That's one, section eight.
oh
And it's also, section 8 is a remote business.
So that's why it's interesting.
It's a remote.
It's a business, it's a real estate business.
You can build remote.
I'm very bullish on remote businesses.
I don't like any businesses that tie me down to one geographical location.
um I looked at a lot of franchises, by the way, before starting this business.
There are some very good um home service franchises that I think are great.
um But again, like...
I'm building my current business because I could be anywhere in the world.
So yeah, section 8 housing is interesting because you can build it entirely remote.
You can acquire property, maintain a property, fill it with a tenant, um and deal with
maintenance requests all remote without you ever having to set foot on the premise.
So that's interesting.
Yeah, amazing, amazing.
Well, look, thank you so much for taking time today.
Really enjoyed this conversation.
Lots of good nuggets for everyone listening.
So yeah, really appreciate you the time out and joining us on the show.
Yeah, thank you.
I appreciate you,
Thank you.