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The Psychedelic Psychologist is a conversational-style podcast hosted by Dr. Ryan Westrum with clients and guests who use talk therapy to integrate Psychedelic experiences for healing and personal transformation. Tune in to hear people’s experiences, breakthroughs and stories of healing addiction, depression, and trauma through Psychedelics. Dr. Ryan Westrum gracefully and empathetically narrates real therapy sessions with people in their most vulnerable and transformational moments.
I'd like to invite you to take
a moment, a moment in your day
where you take on the
idea of an invitation.
Yes, just simply allowing
the word invitation
to encompass your spirit, your
body, your heart, and your mind.
What does it mean to be
offered an invitation?
Taking a breath in and
then allowing it to settle.
Taking a breath out and be
curious to the invitation.
I simply ask you what starts to arise.
Is it a thought,
a memory, an opportunity?
Breathing in and breathing out, now
starting to explore the emotional
constructs, the emotional expression
that comes with this invitation.
Breathing in and breathing out,
going slow and without judgment,
simply settle into the invitation.
Wandering, meandering, and
allowing your active imagination,
your focus, and all the things
that your body presents.
To be present to
continuing to soften and bearing witness.
Breathing in and breathing out.
Is this an invitation that is a calling?
Is this an invitation
that has surprised you?
Maybe it's an invitation
that needs some processing.
Allow it to simply be.
And once again, finding your breath,
recognizing the rise and fall of
each breath in and each breath out.
Now, as you witness and recognize
the deep invitations or multitude
of invitations that you have seen, I
ask you to simply place them on the table,
knowing at any given moment, you
can come back to these invitations.
Grounding with one breath in,
and one breath out, allowing
yourself to come back to your body,
coming back to this present moment.
Hi, it's Ryan.
Welcome to your weekly dose of the
Psychedelic Psychologist, where I invite
my guests to share stories about their
psychedelic experiences and journeys.
We cover a variety of topics, from
overcoming addiction and severe
depression, To finding wholeness
and then spiritual emergence today.
I'm grateful, completely humbled
and excited to reconnect with Tom.
Tom.
It's great to hear you.
Great to see you.
How are you today?
I'm doing well.
Good to hear you.
So entering into an invitation of
sorts, you accepted the invitation
at some moment in your life.
What was the call?
How did you start to see the invitations
to working with psychedelics?
What started to arise?
Yeah, that initial call and invitation
was Me trying to be super organized
in my, in my world and, , really being
called to do some deeper spiritual work.
And I was super excited about that.
And still, I'm super excited about that.
And, and knowing you as long as I have,
you're a devoted spiritual person.
So can you unpack a little bit,
what was different about the
spiritual practices that you do?
Harness and work with and now what
is psychedelics offered you being
a spiritual practice for yourself?
It's really allowed me
to To get out of my head.
I really had no choice than to get out
of my head Which is I was surprised by
that and that that was such a challenge
So how does you know one let go of
the intellect and just let the heart?
Kind of manifest itself and
that's been really fascinating.
So when I look back at you know
You My younger days and early days
when there always was some, a big
spiritual connection in my world.
, it was pretty intellectual.
It's like, how much can I learn?
How much, you know, how can I pay
attention to this in a different way?
And now it's really , the medicine
has allowed me to, to get out of my
way and just to let, let life happen.
And, and just has brought so
much new awareness around.
Those topics that I thought I really
understood that I really don't understand.
Yeah.
What's the biggest difference that
you see about the intellectual
understanding and the embodied or
somatic or spiritual understanding
that has been witnessed to you?
It's, , the, the new understandings
that have come and continue to come
are, are so much deeper and meaningful.
And it brings me to places that I
don't always want to go, but when I
do let my heart go there and when I
do trust this process, that's, that's
where the, the fruitfulness comes.
That's where , the deep
heartfelt stuff comes.
And it's always a mix of kind
of unfinished business,, past
traumas, kinds of things.
That, you know, I'd rather not kind
of go to, but now, I'm able to
do that in a more peaceful way.
Because of the work with you, Ryan
and, and the medicine and, just re
it's, it feels like a recalibration
of what life is and what life isn't.
Yeah.
I'm getting a sense that there's a
new, when you say calibration, it's
one of my favorite words with medicine
and what I'm hearing you say, Thomas.
I'm correct in translating, you're
capable of looking on all the
things and feeling all the things.
And it doesn't mean that it's easy,
but what you're doing is being able
to come, in a way to understanding
and peace with them and walk
with them a little more, lighter.
Yeah, absolutely.
And really, you know, it's not some
of it, I mean, to other folk might
sound, you know, Scary or fearful.
There's, there's really no fear,
which is really, that's a surprise.
And there'd be no fear in, you know, going
into that deeper work, but there just
isn't, it, it, it's just kind of, it's
like, it is what it is and let's go there
and let's, let's take care of things.
And, and really working toward.
This idea of just being my, I get to be my
authentic self, you know, of all of that.
And, could we unpack that a little
bit, this idea of going into it with,
a desire to look at knowing that
it can be scary or fearful, but it
sounds as if it's an invitation that.
is obligated to accept to take inventory.
Can you say more about that?
Yeah, absolutely.
It's, invitation is the right word.
It just keeps coming at me
that, you know, let's do this.
And, did I, and I didn't know I
needed to do this or wanted to do this.
and so I'm super grateful about
that, that, you know, I get to
continue to unpack the stuff that.
That shadows and kind of governs my way
of being and the unpacking, you know,
I don't even know what all of it is.
Right.
The end, the unpacking of it
as, as we go is really freeing.
And, you know, freedom has kind of
been one of those words all along
for me, like, how can I be free
from whatever is holding me back?
And, This process is really
allowing me to, to go there.
And again, with, it's not fearful because
it's important and it's meaningful.
And there's.
There's precious stuff there
to unpack and to move through.
This might sound overarching even
as I'm feeling it and saying it,
but I do feel called to it in my
own personal work with medicine.
It's, seems to be that it reconciles
many things in this embodied lifetime
that we are invited to do prior to dying
or transitioning to the next journey.
Do you get that sense that some of
the medicine work and invitations that
you're being, dare I say confronted
with or invited to look at are
in preparation to the transition?
Yeah, for sure.
It's, it's pretty fascinating that.
, the invitation to, to continue to
unpack that and to, and to know
that there's something, there's
something different, right?
There's, there's a bigger,
there's a bigger world.
There's a bigger universe.
There's a bigger, you know, this
deity, whether it's a God or.
Whatever it is for, for people,
for me, it's just, it's super
tied to nature, but it brings me
to these, awarenesses of this.
I can help make sense of things now.
There's this connection of, Oh, I get
why, you know, I do this or don't do
that or feel this way or not feel this
way or not being able to be present
or being too present in some things.
It makes sense now and.
And it's super active in that it's,
it's, it's going backwards and touching
on those things and making those
connections and allowing, allowing
me to move forward at the same time
in a, in a, in a pretty big way.
I love that.
It's, it's what you just marked is so
poignant for me as this ability, as we
get to look back at all these things, make
sense of them in a way, reconcile them.
But in doing all of that, assigning
meaning to it, we're capable of opening up
a larger runway of sorts, if I dare say,
to all the opportunities and invitations.
As we continue to do this work, is
that how you get that sense too?
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
It's It's this weird interesting cool
fascinating process of Kind of going
back into some of the minutiae stuff.
That's the stuff that formed me
here and And really held me back,
pushed me down turns out And
then I don't have to act anymore.
I don't have to pretend
that bad shit happened.
Right.
And, and what's on the other
side is so much more real and
freeing and fascinating to me.
So I mean, it changes a lot of things.
It does change a lot of things.
And, one of the things I admire
deeply about you is recognizing.
The truth in your biographical story,
accepting it and understanding it as your
truth, and not, trying to steer away from
it, but start to integrate yourself as a
holistic person with all the information
you've received through the psychedelic
work you've done, and Now what I'm really
respecting in you is the testament to
Walking a lighter path no matter what the
stories are that we've carried Yeah, it's
and it's almost , it's even bigger than
an imitation It feels like here we go.
You have no choice in the matter kind
of That which I think means, I've
I've accepted the invitation, right?
I Get it
I've been able to, through this
work, I've been able to see it,
see it all in a different way.
And interesting pieces around, again,
this data, like you said, that awareness
or, new information about making those
connections has been really helpful, like,
it makes sense that it is the way it is.
And it makes more sense that
it gets to be different.
Yeah, there's a reassurance of sorts.
At some level, we're reassured of the
information because it's providing
us not only a new pathway, but, an
understanding that this is who we are
and this is how we got to where we are.
Yeah, very much so.
And, and not, and to be, you know,
more protected from, You know, putting
ourselves or others in, in a bit of a
box or like, is this their diagnosis?
Is this my diagnosis as opposed to.
We're all these unique,
interesting individuals.
There's not, you know,
none of us are alike.
There's no two of us alike.
Do you get the sense that, self
compassion and self love is a lot
larger in your life since you've
started working with the medicines?
Yeah, it's all, it feels
like it's all tied in.
So this, this idea of, you know,
accepting this invitation and
surrendering to the invitation.
Which is bringing, you know, more
harmony and, you know, more preferred
realities around, you know, you, you
get to be the loving person you are,
or you get to receive love, in a
different way and yeah, it's really
center and really interesting.
And that feels more authentic.
I'm going to take a pivot and check in
with what's alive in you today as you're
integrating the work, what's new, what,,
is there been any surprises with the
invitation of working with psychedelics
in the integration of your life?
Yeah, I think the biggest, the biggest
surprise has been, it makes sense
that I approached the work thinking,
, thinking, thinking, thinking that,
it's, this is what's going to present,
or this is what I want it to present.
And sometimes that happens and
sometimes it doesn't happen.
Sometimes it's, I think the surprise
has been, it's not a linear process.
It's not.
It doesn't get, it doesn't continue
to get more spiritual for me.
It doesn't continue to get deeper.
It gets, it's more spread out.
That's been surprising.
Can you, unpack that a
little bit more for me?
What does it mean to not go
deeper, but more spread out?
Because I'm, I'm, I'm resonating
with what you're saying.
The idea, like, we're not going to
get closer to God holding their hand.
You know, it's, it's right.
So it shouldn't be this process
of, you know, where do I get to
the euphoric piece or, you know,
I've become more divine, right?
, another surprise has been, if
there is this deity or this
higher divine power thing, which
there, there clearly is something.
Right.
, it's, I keep continuing to
discover that it's, it's within me.
It's within all of us.
It's here.
So pay attention in a different way.
Stop looking, start paying attention.
Do it, it's been a learning curve
for me just to do less and just to be
more, and that's, that's coming much
more naturally than I thought it would.
I thought, Oh, you're going
to be a tough act here.
You know, you're going to, you
know, continue to want to, you know,
create and do all these things.
And, and I just.
I don't have to and I don't want to and
it's so it feels more restful, I guess.
Oh, that's beautiful.
That restfulness doesn't feel, agitated
at all, even as I listen to it.
No, well, the agitation is there,
but I get it in a different way.
And it's because there's this,
this internal kind of discourse
and these weird disconnects.
I'm surprised that it's such
an active process, maybe.
Thank you.
There is, when you're talking
about just the introspection and
that the divine is within us and
everybody has that same privilege.
It makes, sense in a wordplay
of understanding rather than
trying to understand everything.
We're understanding.
We're really focusing.
I've been playing with that word
a lot and it feels resonant with
what you're saying is, what can
we do to understand ourself more?
What can we do to really come to
terms and peace with ourselves?
rather than trying to grab
it from the external world.
Is that what I'm hearing from you?
I love that.
And it's, what else kind of
rings through with that is that
it is, it is interesting, right?
It's, it's super curious.
Yeah.
The curiosity.
There's this hyper curiosity,
which is really refreshing.
We've been working as, supporting
you in integration for some time now
you've been on this journey and can
you tell me a little bit about how you
listen to when it's time to do medicine
work and how do you energy test if
it's with MDMA or with psilocybin?
What's kind of the catalog of
inquiry that you do personally?
Yeah, I think for me, it's, It does
feel just naturally intuitive or
something, you know, it feels again,
if I'm, if I'm listening and paying
attention to my own stuff and what's
going on around me or what isn't going
on around me, there's this kind of
natural process of, of moving through it.
So where I'm at now is.
I'm still, I'm integrating a lot.
And , it's, it takes a lot,
fair amount of energy for me.
So, which is helping me do less and be
more restful and I just sleep like a baby.
So I'm doing lots of, lots of
internal work and I know, and look
forward to, to the work that is
yet to come, but it's not now.
And I think that's because.
I'm still integrating, right?
I'm still, there's still a lot of
material there for me to, to work with.
And that feels really sweet.
This is a vital point you're making,
and I'm really grateful for it.
This idea that you're recognizing
the value of medicine work and
when it's important and listening
to it intuitively, yet you know
immediately it's not time because of
the, just the integration process.
Can you speak to me about
how it shows up to you?
Are you a physically embodied integrator?
I know you said you use
a lot of your cognition.
What do you know?
to do that feels right for your
personal integration process.
Yeah, just , the physical experience
has been really super fascinating.
So I'm glad you brought that up.
So, it feels like my body is
really active and really changing.
And I think that's allowed me
to get out of my head and to
be more internal, with myself.
And so, There's been lots of days
with, lots of pain, physical pain
in different parts of my body.
And what I've discovered is, , it's
the universe just telling me
you need to let go of that.
Cause my, my natural pattern
is to just hold on, right?
And things can be so out of
control that I'm going to control
the hell out of this piece.
For example, just like my, my left
shoulder is just, it just won't let go.
It just like, would you just let go?
And then some days it will.
And it's not, it's not a medical thing.
, and I've had it in different
parts of my body, where it
really can be debilitating.
Like I can't do certain things
because of it, which again is.
This sign to me of just rest, do less.
And I have that opportunity to do that.
Which is, an honor and a privilege.
And I have no choice.
That's what it feels like.
It's, it's like the
universe is shaking me.
you've done too much.
Well, one of the things that I'm
really appreciative of what you're
saying is it's not as if you're
not still active, engaged, and
living a deeply fulfilling life.
You're just choosing to go at a different
pace, a different perspective, and
knowing what I hear you saying is
not jumping into the rat race that
everybody thinks of consumption.
Yeah, exactly.
There's, there's less
tolerance for the rat race.
I, you know, historically, I think
I've been a gregarious introvert, so
I can do, I can do the rat race, I
can do, you know, I've done all that.
And now it just, I, I can't do it.
I'm not always available to do it.
And I get to do my own active
work, which is super cool.
I've heard this, frequently, this
idea of almost when I meet people with,
Addiction and relationships, say, to
alcohol or certain compounds, they, they
literally say the same thing, you just
say, after working with medicine, be
it psilocybin or MDMA, there's, there's
this, this internal voice that says,
I don't want it, I can't do it, and
there's, This internal resistance to
compounds, to substances, or to behaviors.
Do you get that sense
within your own practice?
Are you recognizing that there's
just like almost, dare I say,
a block of resistance to maybe
maladaptive behaviors or behaviors
that just don't serve you anymore?
Yeah, it's been fascinating and so
important because it kind of gets
to the crux of a lot of things.
A couple of examples.
I can't, I can, my body can no longer, so
I've never had a drinking issue, but my
body, cannot tolerate alcohol anymore.
And I'm grateful for that because,
intellectually, I know it's a depressant
and I don't, we don't need it.
I don't want it, but that whole
social thing, you go out to dinner,
you have a cocktail and you have a
share a bottle of wine with people.
I just can't do that.
Cause that really shuts me down.
That's been interesting.
So how do we fight.
That kind of old pattern, and
just give into the fact that
that's no longer for me.
That's been fascinating.
How do you, how do you have the gentle
conversation, compassionate conversation
with yourself around still wanting to
potentially be social, but know that
the alcohol or just that behavior
doesn't resonate with you anymore?
I think it helps.
It's, it's kind of this
friendly, helpful reminder that.
Things are changing.
Things are shifting.
Pay attention in a different way.
Almost, you know, that kind of
message of just You need to pay
attention, but also just kind of
go with the flow more, you know,
control, less, let go all those things.
That sounds super easy,
that are challenged for me.
I, it's happening more naturally now.
It feels like I'm, I'm at my
core or getting to, who I am.
And that's so that, so the, the
shift in adjusting to those changes.
Yeah, it's, it's this idea that
when we come in to do this work,
we're looking to make radical
changes or even minor changes.
And then when these changes
present themselves, we're like,
Oh, I'm not going to drink anymore.
Or, Oh, I'm not going to
eat like this anymore.
Oh, I'm going to be more quiet or
I'm going to be more contemplative.
And it's exactly, and I'm really
happy you're saying all this.
The idea is these are what, are
open invitations for us to actively
participate with and I'm hearing
it echo loud and clear with you.
Yeah, and it's so it's refreshing in a
way in that the old life experiences or
the old traumas that kind of just want
to cling on are just I'm repelling them
more naturally because what's what's
needed and what I'm drawn to is quiet is
being in nature is Just, being, again,
being more contemplative, for sure.
Knowing that you've had a life of
spirituality, a practice of spirituality,
how do you hold the medicine work, the
medicine ceremonies that you do, in the
holistic approach of your life today?
I think, I think the best way to
describe it is, The medicine has
allowed me to integrate the, my
old sense of spirituality with
this new sense of this new reality.
And, and really what's
becoming more real to me.
So this is huge shifts.
And, and just when I think I,
okay, I've, I've overcome that
messaging or I've overcome that.
Cultural indoctrination about
something, they pop back up.
So it's, again, it's, I shouldn't
be surprised, but I am surprised
that it's such a circular process.
It's super dynamic for me.
And the medicine lets me, allows
me and invites me to integrate it.
I think more quickly and, and more
effectively like, Oh, there you are.
I, I see, I see that old stuff.
I see how you want me to.
You want me to kind of hold me back.
So it's, it's, it's been super refreshing.
It's been a lot of work, but
really fruitful work.
What would you say to the
man that hadn't accepted the
invitation to medicine work yet?
What would you say to him in
preparation or providing insight
prior to doing this work?
I would say be open and tend to what
your intentions might be around it.
What are you curious about?
What do you, what do you hope it presents?
How it presents?
And I would just strongly recommend it.
I think for most people,, the people
around me in my life now, some, some
know that I'm doing this work, some don't
know, it's who do I feel safe around
to, to share those kinds of intimacies.
The people that.
You know, our closest
and, , love me deeply.
Totally get it.
I lay in, they don't have questions.
It's pretty interesting.
They're kind of happy for
me maybe or something.
And others I think are, that don't, I
haven't and won't have those conversations
with are really the people that they're
kind of these fringe people that.
There isn't a lot of
room for you right now.
So I'm really not available.
That's been really helpful again,
that invitation or that permission
to be who I am and to be around
who I want to be around or need
and shouldn't be around maybe.
That's lovely.
And it's not to discount
or be shunning the others.
It's what I'm hearing and I resonate
with is, really accepting the
invitations of the people that accept
you for your authenticity and your
story and you doing the same for them.
Right.
Exactly.
Yeah.
This reciprocity is super important.
Tom, what are you doing as often?
I ask today and in this moment
to be gentle with yourself.
How are you expressing
gentleness to yourself?
I, I think the biggest
theme for me is expectation.
So I'm really lowering expectations
of myself and really lower
expect expectations of others.
It's just like turning the dial
down, just like less is more right.
And to be, I'm a little more, I'm a little
more centered and, intentional about
what I choose to do day in and day out.
So now it's , we're, we've had
this incredible spring and it
feels like summer's here today.
So just really, being outside,
being in nature, being in my gardens.
It's been really helpful
and healing for me.
It's always great to
go back to your garden.
It really is.
Yeah, that's where you'll find me.
Tom, I'm humbled by this moment and
this time together, and I'm grateful to
walk next to you, and thank you so much.
Thank you, Ryan.
Thanks for all you do.
You're awesome.