Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
The Wayfarers are Experts & Investigators Navigating the Reality of What it is to be Human with Evidence & Experience: Fruits > Faith
Kristin is a Relationship Investigator, Former Teacher & Human Development Specialist
Matt is a Criminal Trial Attorney, Former Prosecutor & Advocate for Juveniles
H.C. “Hil” is a Criminal Investigator, Veteran, Retired FBI Agent & Cactus Expert
PIETY & NERVOUS SYSTEM WARNING - SOMETIMES WE USE RUDE WORDS! Topics include Drugs, Sex, Death & Violence and also Abuse, Neglect, Abandonment & Betrayal.
We use raw and vivid imagery and choose words that explore what is real.
And the brain for life.
Matt:Well, it really
Kristin:I'm sorry?
Matt:The spiritual wellness is brain food for life. Because everything's brain food.
Hilary:And we've got classrooms, crime scenes, and courtrooms. Mhmm. Like that? The alliterations? I do.
Hilary:But I'm still having trouble with the t. I keep wanting to say trauma.
Matt:It's alright.
Kristin:For oh, life cast, you mean, threats? Yeah. Well, that's because it was trauma. We changed it to threats. I don't wanna
Matt:work, but trauma is just such a
Kristin:Trauma is all of them.
Hilary:I know you have the reasons.
Matt:Yeah. It's just it's mainly trauma. It's such a overused and
Hilary:Traumatic. Traumatic word.
Kristin:We're trying to reframe vocabulary too. Like, let's actually talk about the specific things that cause trauma. And these are the the the abuse, the threats, the scares, the
Hilary:I I think well, and the other thing
Matt:Yeah. We're rolling, guys.
Hilary:So Okay. I think the other thing, Matt, is threats are more on the people's minds right now. Trauma comes after gotta deal with the threat. The threat is what people are trying to protect themselves from, is threats. They don't know how to protect themselves from trauma.
Kristin:Well, the trauma
Hilary:That comes as a result of many things where a threat Right.
Kristin:Yes.
Hilary:Gets to your Right. Right then and now.
Matt:When when you when
Hilary:you deal with You feel threatened.
Matt:You know, if you're if you're in a constant state of threat Yeah. That becomes an injury.
Hilary:Yes. A trauma. Trauma. And
Matt:so you're right. You can't you can prevent some traumas. Right? You can avoid some traumas. But really, it's trying to mitigate the effects of and, you know, minimize the effects of and, rehab from trauma.
Matt:And and and, you know, heal is another word, that
Hilary:no. I I like it. I don't think every threat becomes a trauma.
Matt:It can't. I mean, it shouldn't.
Hilary:Yeah. It shouldn't.
Kristin:It's it's trauma becomes a trauma when an experience or emotion is not understood. It's a key. You can't comprehend it and understand it, so it becomes in you as this memory or experience that you keep coming back to. You have you have to put an understanding to it. And that that's why what is trauma?
Kristin:It's something that, yeah, you have not processed and it's you've taken it in somehow. Yeah. So I yeah. I don't I really do feel like the words are what those are the things that you that can cause impact on your body and mind if you can't put it together.
Hilary:Yeah. Well, and we know how important words are and can be. And and Mhmm. That critical.
Matt:I mean, we have language. We may as well try to use it
Hilary:as accurately and as as Honestly?
Matt:As as possible.
Hilary:That's right. I'm with you. Well, I'm Matt Long.
Kristin:I'm Kristen Long.
Matt:And I'm Hillary Jenkins. And we are your life cast. And this is honest inquiry, where we attempt to engage in an on honest inquiry into reality. You know, there's this word trauma. It seems, nah.
Matt:It is connected to this concept of spirituality, truth, and spiritual wellness. And recently, Kristen, Hillary and I have been having interesting, instructive conversations with very religious people. And I'm gonna say the what you'd identify as the salt of the earth type people.
Kristin:The rocks.
Matt:That's right. The the the rocks. The the pillars. Yeah. And it's been in a very particular community because we come from a very, we all have a shared, religious background in our families and in our histories, and that's within the Mormonism framework religion, which is it goes back to the back to the the Book of Mormon and, Joseph Smith Junior, who was identified as the American prophet.
Matt:And it's a it's a fascinating religion because it's a fascinating people. In in one part because it's considered well, considered it is. It's the first American religion. Well, at least that that's what I was taught in my, world religions class at, you know, Arizona State University. Is they they said that this was the first sect.
Matt:Right? The the the joy of sects is is the first religion that was purely originated in America. You know, whereas the other ones, you know, the Protestant and Baptist, those those go back to Church of England. And and there's a there's a history within Christianity that so many other people understand better than I do. And it and it, you know, goes from the the great schism of Christianity as Jesus fully man and fully God or is there, the the triune God and the Trinity and it goes back to theology and these types of things.
Matt:But it it comes in from, effectively Europe and other parts of the world and grew up in America. But Mormonism, this this Joseph Smith's, religion, his church is very purely American.
Hilary:And wouldn't you say that the message that that sprang from that was not only is it the first, but it's the best? And we're on the spectrum of Christianity. I mean, but we don't wanna be on the low end of the spectrum. We wanna be on the highest end. Right.
Hilary:Okay. But we're we're on the spectrum of Christianity.
Matt:Yeah. When you say it's the best, what what do you mean by that?
Hilary:The one true. There it is. There's one truth There it is. And this is the way. And my denomination was a lesser known part of Mormonism.
Matt:Well, yeah. And let's
Hilary:Although in the beginning Let's let's get a little bit
Matt:of a little bit of history because but you do point out something there's there's something the reason why Mormons and and the religions that rose out of Joseph Smith Junior's mind and behaviors and, his people is that it is an amazing microcosm, an example of just American Christianity, period. And especially modern American Christianity. And it's tied to this this concept of the prosperity gospel. I mean, Joseph Smith Junior, Brigham Young, and and and others, definitely preached the idea that if you are first of all, you are God's chosen people, the actual chosen people
Hilary:Mhmm.
Matt:That, you have God's actual priesthood. The the the teachings of of of Mormons were that, Catholics and Protestants are all apostates from the original
Hilary:Mhmm.
Matt:Church. Yeah. That is that is that is the church that the man, Jesus of Nazareth, started while he was, at least on earth, whether pre or post death. Right? And it so it's the prosperity gospel.
Matt:It's a chosen people. They're also an, apocalyptical people. They were there are people that believed in and and many cases still believe, in they being the cause of bringing about the end of times and the return of of Christ as as part of the chosen people. So they, view themselves as being in the last days as the church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints. They're also very tied up into politics and political power And and, the the what I'm saying?
Matt:Is the Brighamite church our dogs are bouncing around? The Brighamite church especially well, Joseph Smith, how about how about this? When he when he was, shot, when he died, he was running for president of The United States. And and so there's this this history, this symbology, this theology is is one of, this people being the actual empire of God. The kingdom of God.
Matt:And they have these they have militaristic, imagery. They have these kingly and and royal, verbiage and and language. Right? Components.
Hilary:Yeah. And it's a great story. It's amazing story. And people that, you know, don't know about it might be fascinated by it, and then say, but it didn't come true. Yeah.
Hilary:But it was great. I mean, it was really cool. In in the beginning, it made a lot of sense.
Matt:Well, it sure captured an an a number of a number of people. We but we've been having conversations again with with people within the Mormon faith. I guess I should you know, Hillary started to allude to, that that there are different factions within it. Because real quick overview of Mormonism. Joseph Smith junior, he's, he's he's a known known treasure hunter.
Matt:He's kind of a, you know, young man that that's going and doing all types of stuff. And and he sells the idea that he has the ability to, to to to find gold in the ground. And as part of this, he's he was also caught up in in just, religiosity and the, kind of everything that's going on in the time. And, eventually, he says that god, this is the actual god and Jesus Christ, it's two separate and distinct personages, came to him while he was praying. And that they directed him and said, there are no true churches on the earth, but you are going to be the one that brings forth God's finally God's true church.
Kristin:Good news. It's you.
Matt:Good news. Restoration. And there are restoration. Church is saying that it's not a reform. It is restoring
Hilary:the original. Yeah. Mhmm.
Matt:OG. OG. He's an OG. And so he does his thing, starts a small church. They're in New York.
Matt:They move along, and they go to, a place called Kirtland, Ohio.
Hilary:Yeah. He didn't find gold though, but he found brass.
Matt:Well, that's right. It was the brass plates. That's right. He found found this book. He says that an angel delivered it to him.
Matt:He, you know, yada yada yada, church was formed. No.
Hilary:Yeah.
Matt:You know, the the Book of Mormon comes, he says he has the ability to the power and ability of God to translate from this ancient scripture. Yeah. We could do a deep dive into that. It really doesn't matter for our purposes today. Maybe we'll get into it on another day.
Kristin:Yes.
Hilary:But he
Kristin:But abracadabra were here.
Matt:Yeah. They move and they start gaining a following. But the thing about about the Mormon peoples, they tend to bring bring and I think convert.
Hilary:I thought you were gonna say create chaos.
Matt:Well, there is some chaos. Yep. But they bring they they really called to and drew refugees. I mean, even back in the day in the early, you know, eighteen hundreds when it started, they they seemed to be kind of the a lot of the castoffs. A lot of the people that weren't connected to other, groups or or in some cases were coming from, either Canada or Europe and and and other places there were.
Matt:And and they were a missionary church and going around and, right, preaching the gospel of Joseph Smith and, this restoration restoration church and the Book of Mormon, new scripture, and the fact that Jesus Christ actually came and appeared to a people here in America. And it says, so it was very much an American religion because it rose out of America.
Hilary:Mhmm.
Matt:And it was essentially an attempt to provide America's history with God and Jesus Christ.
Hilary:Yeah. And mention the third component, which is the Doctrine and Covenants, which was a new way of adding to scripture.
Matt:Saying that modern scriptures exist.
Hilary:Yes. And people Yeah. God still talks.
Matt:God still talks to a man, so he identified as a prophet. And they say just the same as as Moses or Abraham or Isaiah. No different.
Hilary:Mhmm.
Matt:And and that, again, concept had real meaning and application. And and so they, they kinda had this this church that grew up in in Ohio, started building a temple. And it's not like the temples that they use today, but it was a meeting center. And politics really entered their world at this point, because Joseph Smith and the Mormon people historically weren't just community builders. They were city builders.
Matt:And the city government and the state government that goes involved in that. So Joseph Joseph Smith was not just prophet and president of the church. Right? These are two things. Prophet is from God.
Matt:President is about the organization. Mhmm. Right? Because because, Chris, and you had a good line. We were talking to somebody about what religion is.
Matt:And what what did you you come up with, yesterday? Well
Kristin:I don't even remember what it Yeah.
Matt:You said it twice twice today. You were telling your sister. Do you know what a religion is?
Kristin:Oh, yeah. Just a it's a law firm and and a five zero one c three. Oh, okay. Together.
Hilary:Don't forget the seer and revelator part.
Matt:Well, that's the the the he's also the that's the prophet. But that's what the prophet is. Yeah.
Kristin:Yeah. So he's the one that speaks for the 501C3. Right? This all the good we're doing
Matt:in the shots with a tone like you're very sarcastic and very
Kristin:I'm sorry. Well, this isn't your
Hilary:religion. I'm saying it lovingly. Yeah. Right. Say it a little more Look at the smile.
Matt:Show show a little more respect. Put put put some respect on his name.
Kristin:Sorry.
Matt:But he right.
Kristin:But, you know, and then there's the the the business part of it all is what you're saying. Right?
Matt:The The the let me call it the
Hilary:legal part.
Kristin:Versus the president is all you're saying. Right? There's this business part and the political part of everything there.
Matt:How about the legal part? Yeah. Because very early on with the really when when when Mormons talk about the the the beginning of the church, there's a specific date that it started. Right? April 6, '18 Thirty.
Matt:Eighteen '30. But I I remember April 6. See?
Hilary:Yeah. Good.
Matt:And that was the day that they say the church quote unquote, the church. Capital t, capital c. The church was organized.
Kristin:And
Matt:really all that means is that it became a legal fiction, right, a legal entity
Hilary:Mhmm.
Matt:Under the laws and regulations of The United States Of America. And and you can fast forward today to this idea of of, you know in fact, Mitt Romney, another famous, Mormon. He talked about, what a corporation is. You know, corporation versus people. And he'd say, corporations are people, my friend.
Matt:And that is very theological from a Mormon perspective. But it's saying that this corporation because you're right, it's not just a five zero one c three though, it's an LLC, it's a corporation.
Kristin:Yeah, yeah.
Matt:It's a five zero one c three, and it's a law firm. So it really is all three of those as legal entities, and it's those things that make up the church.
Kristin:Yes.
Matt:Right? Church the church for Mormons isn't just a building where you where the people go to attend. Mhmm. It is a more global
Hilary:Right.
Matt:Institution, entity that does make up
Hilary:Yeah.
Matt:Corporation, an LLC or a five zero one c three, a charitable organization. Again, under the laws of of America.
Hilary:Yeah. It has legal standing.
Matt:That's it.
Hilary:Even though it's not standing room only because there's lots of empty spaces.
Matt:Lots of empty spaces are happening. But this this and and and the connection to it is, I remember when, was it Meghan Markle was talking about the royal family and her experience there. And she talked about different entities that make up the royal, institution. And they said there's the firm, there's the family, and then there's the institution. And that had real meaning and application in the context of, England's Royal Power Center.
Matt:Oh. Because to just call it the family, right, that's one thing. But then there's the firm. And then there's the institution. And to distinguish those things from a perspective of an empire and and a royal is applicable to, the Mormon people.
Matt:Because there is the family, the the people, the fam collective families. There is the firm. And the firm is a law firm, but it's also an accounting firm. Because the accumulation of land Mhmm. Stocks, and influence is a mission of this particular organization.
Hilary:Yeah. Makes me wanna read the book by John Grisham again. Prefer. Yeah. Well Yeah.
Hilary:A lot of similarities.
Matt:There is. There is. Yes. And and and taking all of these together, you have the institution, the entity, which is a, at this point, a global conglomerate with with wealth and and and, influence both in politics and in culture Mhmm. And and certainly in land holding holdings and in contracts.
Matt:And and that was you know, the beginning of that was with Joseph Smith back in the day. Because like I said, he was, you know, this prophet, he was the figurehead of the church, the institution. So there's him as God, as the leader and the man that has essentially authority over all of humankind. That's what a prophet is. Right?
Matt:He gets to speak for God to everyone. Mhmm. And then there's the president of the organization. And that's the leader of these people who subscribe to to being members and and and belonging to them. Right?
Matt:It's it's like Costco members. And but then he was also the mayor. He became a mayor. He became the general of a militia, and they had their own military. And he also became a candidate for president of The United States because the theology of the Mormon people and Joseph Smith, junior that continued on to Brigham Young was a theocracy, A theocracy that melded spiritual, religious, and political power to the point where Joseph Smith even created a bank and started printing their own money in, Kirtland, Ohio.
Matt:Ohio. But then like so many religious leaders do, at some point, Joseph Smith's god told him, again, as tell as old as time, that he needed to start marrying and having sex with other, women in the community. And that included what this is my favorite, statement that men, Mormon men especially, will talk about because it's the way they communicate, kind of one of the most great offenses that Joseph Smith committed. And they say, he even married other men's wives. When you're in that one, it's hilarious because of the built in misogyny.
Matt:Yeah. Just write into that comment. See the for men I'm
Kristin:not possessed. He married my thing.
Matt:He married my thing. That's my thing.
Kristin:Yeah. He took my thing.
Matt:And and rather than, he violated his marriage vows to his partner, Emma Smith. Mhmm. Now, Emma becomes an important and a critical part in what we're talking about. Because so far, most people, when you talk about Mormons and Joseph Smith, you know, I mentioned Brigham, BYU. Right?
Matt:Brigham Young University and Salt Lake City and the the most people know them because of their mission center. But what or their mission, program, right, throughout the world. But when Joseph Smith died and he, you know, polygamy was polygamy was happening at that point. It had been exposed. And that's a big part of why he died.
Matt:You you you can't talk about the Mormon people without having a anthropological discussion about spiritual wife, plural marriage, and polygamy. And these are all terms that were used and are used, about the theology of these people. Because you see, Joseph Smith, it was you know, his his theology moved over the course of a period of time. But when he says that, you know, god has a body of flesh and bone, not blood. Right?
Matt:That's that's also theological because things like blood atonement guys, come on. You guys gotta go.
Hilary:Gary I understand. What's
Kristin:know. Go.
Hilary:What's happening? Sheesh.
Matt:Come on. Go. Go. Go.
Kristin:Love you guys. Go. I know. It's
Matt:Molly, go. Go. Go.
Kristin:The constant.
Matt:Go. Come on. We must be doing good stuff because the dogs love it.
Kristin:They just it won't stop.
Matt:But he right. And the the again, having a body and the fact that God has a physical body and that Jesus has a physical body and that they are two separate and distinct beings is fundamental to the Mormon people's, theology. And the connection between polygamy and especially the idea that there will be spiritual wifery and that a man will have multiple women and that we are literal children of God that will then become gods and will have propagate literal children that will then, populate our own worlds and universes, there's something in that theology that really emphasizes the importance that god has a penis Mhmm. And a functioning penis. That is what their theology really can be and must be distilled down to when it's broken down.
Matt:But the thing about Emma, his original wife and the one that's recognized as his actual legal and proper wife, she wasn't she wasn't really down with the polygamy. Mm-mm. Now she went there's some some
Hilary:I thought
Kristin:you were gonna
Hilary:say thrilled. I thought you were gonna say thrilled. I thought you were
Kristin:gonna say thrilled.
Matt:Certainly wasn't thrilled. But when he when Joseph Smith died, it's in large part because of his deceits and his hiding and his lying to the people about whether or not polygamy was in fact a
Kristin:thing. Mhmm.
Matt:That created the first and major, schism within Mormonism. And it was one where Joseph Smith, right, he he dies and goes away. And now who is the leader of this group of people? Who is God?
Kristin:Who's gonna be talking to God now?
Matt:Who talks to God now?
Hilary:Joseph Smith junior son.
Kristin:Who talks to God?
Matt:Joseph Smith junior son.
Hilary:Which is where I came from.
Matt:Mhmm. Well, and that and that was one of the right? There was this Brigham Young guy, but then
Hilary:But I he
Matt:had kids.
Hilary:But I'm the little lesser known.
Kristin:Yes.
Hilary:Because I don't know what the value of Mormonism is. Mhmm. Is there a price? What they're worth?
Matt:Oh, you mean the Brighamite Church? Yeah. Oh. Oh. Many, many, many, many billions.
Hilary:2 hundred and 50 Billions. Billion. Yeah. Yeah. So I wouldn't even guess what Yeah.
Hilary:Many, many billions of dollars. Yeah. But my point was, for whatever reason, that movement that went to Salt Lake City flourished in terms of numbers and converts and land acquisition and beautiful edifice buildings, places of worship, holy places. And my denomination or sect as we refer to it stayed small and grew slowly and is still pales in comparison to size.
Kristin:I wonder what the factor was that one was able to grow so exponentially and one wasn't.
Matt:Well, I think we should do a deep we should we should set that question aside.
Kristin:Yeah.
Matt:But there there is yeah. I see you're you're answering that. So it sounds like you're rhetorical about it. But I think we should get into a deep dive about that.
Kristin:Well, this was part of the schism, though. The it the when Joseph Smith died
Hilary:Who's gonna leave?
Kristin:Church split into two.
Matt:Oh, no. More than two. Yeah.
Kristin:Oh, yeah. More than two.
Matt:Think of two.
Kristin:I guess
Hilary:Well, thank you. But there's a lot more.
Matt:There's a
Kristin:lot more than two. Yeah.
Matt:No. And and and now the the one group so you have Brigham, this Brighamite group and and really it's the it's the plagues. That's why I say it was the plagues. Yeah. Because it was about polygamy.
Matt:Those who wanted to do continue to do polygamy had to leave the country.
Kristin:They had to leave.
Matt:Yes. And so the the because it was illegal. And and so their flee, their flight, that is the Brighamite, group faction Mhmm. Away from, Missouri. Right?
Matt:Because eventually they they went from Kirtland, then they went to this place called Nauvoo, Missouri. And
Hilary:Illinois. Illinois. Sorry. Illinois. Yeah.
Hilary:That's alright. That's what I'm
Matt:here for. That's what you're here
Hilary:for. Yeah. Well, actually, I'm here for another reason, because I can't wait till you get to the part where we both sound like we're coming from opposite sides, and guess what? We're together. We're together.
Hilary:No. We're not even cousins anymore. That's right.
Matt:Yeah. That's right. We're friends. So yeah. No.
Matt:Illinois, Nauvoo, Illinois. And the the polygamists, the the people that would follow Brigham Young and the other polygamists, they had to go west, which was no longer The United States. And so they were effectively secessionists.
Kristin:Mhmm.
Matt:They seceded from the country. And when they founded, their their community in the Salt Lake Valley of what is now called Utah. It wasn't a state. It was, there were it was Native Americans. Now there's look.
Matt:There's, there's currently a net Netflix series right now that's going on about, relationships between Native American the Native American people and the Mormons. And that was a it's an interesting storied history about that. But the whole point was they had to flee the country be in order to continue practicing their theology of spiritual wifery, plural marriage, or, polygamy, and they couldn't do it in The United States. Mhmm. But the people that stayed, and that included Emma and her children, continued to be Mormons because they said, no.
Matt:No. No. This is the actual, Mormonism and polygamy is immoral. It is ungodly, and that is what the apostasy is. And so Joseph's wife, Emma, stayed and was kind of the steward.
Matt:She remarried, and she was kind of the steward as her children until they got older in order to take over because there was some belief in just a direct familial line of authority of God's priesthood. Joseph Royalty. Yeah.
Kristin:The royalty.
Hilary:Oh, yeah.
Matt:Yeah. Which is which is very consistent with that. Mhmm. And then they said no, he it belongs to this this man, Brigham Young for these theological reasons, and then there was, you know, the strangites and and many others. And and eventually, the other one that's known of is in the kind of modern history is that there became these polygamist offshoots.
Matt:Mhmm. And that's where the Warren Jeffs group in Colorado City that people may have heard about and know, and they are, so now we have effectively three. You have, the Brighamite branch, the Brighamite sect, which is identified as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints. And then you had, Emma's branch that stayed, and they were the they were in the Kirtland and Nauvoo and Missouri and and that is still in the Midwest? Yeah.
Kristin:Midwest. Yeah.
Matt:East for me. Right?
Hilary:And they Well, ultimately, Independence, which is Independence. The center place. See, I
Matt:got Missouri. Missouri is somewhere. Yeah.
Hilary:It's right in the middle of the country. Gotcha. Right. The center.
Matt:And and that was significant independence, this place in Missouri, because at some point, Joseph Smith said, this is the place that well, it's a significant place. And one point, they said right around that area is where the Garden Of Eden actually was. Mhmm. And then he said, that is the place that that Jesus will return to and that all of God's people will need to travel to in order to have, what, a sanctuary in the end times and in the, the millennium.
Hilary:The latter days.
Matt:The latter days.
Kristin:And And here we go.
Matt:And so that's so that so and they but their identifier were identified as, so Brighamites are the LDS, the, Emma's faction. We'll call Emma. So you got Joseph, you got Emma, you got Brigham, and then you got Warren Jeffs. Those are kind of the the big figureheads to identify these people. But Emma, they identified as the RLDS or the reorganized, Latter day Saints, which I always thought was interesting because they really claim they're not reorganized, they're the OG.
Matt:So is
Hilary:it Yeah.
Matt:Does that come from anything?
Hilary:Well, other than it being longer than the Mormon church's name, it was always difficult to say, and we abbreviated it with the r l d s. Mhmm. But all people heard was l d s. They they didn't hear the r part. Right.
Matt:And it was important
Hilary:to be separate and distinct from from Yeah. We that's the first thing we wanted to do was make sure whoever we were talking to knew we we weren't Mormon. Right. Right.
Kristin:That's funny.
Matt:And although though and so But back to your question Yeah.
Hilary:I'm not sure what what you meant or what you were looking for asking me when you when you wanted to know is that is that accurate?
Matt:Oh, well, just the the, the at one point it was the reorganized LDS. Yeah. I just again, I thought it's interesting because that they have adopted the idea of we're reorganized, which almost is a is a confession or a statement that No. It's they're the original and we've reorganized.
Hilary:Well, it's because the the the way the the church was explained was that Brigham Young is the one that went off the track. Mhmm. And the original group stayed true to the independence movement, the center place where Christ would return to, and that's where they they were to move out from there to reach people and bring people to that point Right. To back to the center place at some point.
Matt:So But then they changed their name name at some point. Yeah. Even the modern in in a more modern time.
Hilary:After after dealing with always starting off with a negative
Matt:Of connected to the Brighamite group.
Hilary:A name change took place and it's now Community of Christ. Okay.
Matt:And so you have Community of Christ and they still exist as a global church.
Hilary:Oh, yeah. International.
Matt:Yeah. International.
Hilary:It's just that membership is I've lost track of what it currently is, but it's it's less than 250,000 worldwide.
Matt:Okay. And and and the membership of the Brighamite branch is certainly dwindling, although not as drastic. And the history of community crisis is interesting because first it was they took a position against polygamy. And that resulted in, right, lots of men especially. Right?
Matt:You you you were joking as well. What's the what's the joke about,
Hilary:what your people are would call for? Well, the well, it was it was my age group making fun of the Mormons when I was teenager and younger that supposedly, the women, when they made it to Salt Lake with Brigham Young, the first thing they said was more men. They wanted more men. Right. Well, what else?
Hilary:They wanted they wanted to, you know, have children also, and they wanted them to bring them young.
Matt:Now That's
Kristin:the first I've heard.
Hilary:So that's my that's my sin That's a very among many as a teenager.
Matt:Right. Well, that's appropriate because one of the one of the primary one of the primary criticisms, a fair criticism is, Joseph Smith, not only married other people's lives, other people's property. Right? The the the man said that. But that some of the, some of the girls that he married included teenagers.
Matt:And the the the apologist statement that they use is that one particular girl was just a few months shy of her fifteenth birthday, Otherwise known as a 14
Hilary:year old.
Kristin:14 year old.
Matt:Yeah. Right? And and and so so there's that. But then the other thing that's interesting about the community Christ is in the last, oh, I don't know, fifty years or so, they then gave, made a change, made a theological change of making women pastors and leaders and giving them what's identified in the Mormon in the Mormon church as priesthood. And that was a big deal when that happened, wasn't it?
Matt:Oh, yeah. What what was the result of that?
Hilary:Well, it split the church once again, over disagreement that women didn't have the the authority Mhmm. That men did. And there were women that believed that and men that believed it. Sure. It wasn't just an all men, male thing.
Matt:That's that's a big deal and it resulted in a lot of people believing. Right?
Hilary:Yeah. It prevailed in in 1986. The first women were called or part of the priesthood, ordained, and it's flourished since then. And women have, if you wanna say it this way, risen through the ranks, grown up never to think of priesthood as a structure that one priesthood office or position was higher than the other. But, nevertheless, to get up with more responsibility, authority, whatever you wanna, you know, label it as, women have exceeded and have assumed positions that men have traditionally had for, well, century.
Hilary:Yeah. And now, it's made it all the way to the newest, prophet that's gonna be ordained later this year.
Matt:So the and the this year, the actual leader of the prophet because you guys also you guys, we. The community of Christ does believe in the the role or position of prophet.
Hilary:Yeah. I mean, what it to get to cut to the chase here, the the the prophet that was a direct descendant of Joseph Smith junior, Wallace b Smith, had a son or I'm sorry. His father had Wallace b Smith, and Wallace b Smith had daughters, two daughters only. So no males.
Matt:Right. Eventually, the male line of Joseph Smith ran out.
Hilary:So as it became a practical issue Mhmm. Also. But It is almost
Matt:a theological one. If you say that the line of authority comes through this bloodline, again blood being such an important thing, then you're at a crossroads of either we lose our theological argument or we pivot to females. Am I right about that?
Hilary:Is that like the way we yeah. So the the whole the whole premise too was hung up on this all are called. So all includes women. So why aren't women? Mhmm.
Hilary:So it wasn't just that convenience idea that, we better allow a male to take over because there's no more males left in the in the line. It it was emphasized to to equalize the ministry and the the love women are capable, same as men. I mean, so why have why have a distinction? And that led once that seal that ceiling got broken, other other things happened too in the life of the church Mhmm. To make change Yeah.
Hilary:And change this.
Kristin:View of women I mean, I wonder the view of women it seems so different from the Brigamite perspective of women just because of the break and the Emma was not not portrayed as a
Matt:right at this drama. What Hillary thinks from a woman's perspective. I'm just kidding. I was Oh.
Hilary:To do it on purpose. Well, that you know, I'm
Kristin:I'm kidding. I'm interrupting the woman. That's hilarious.
Matt:I wanna mansplain women to you. I'm so sorry.
Kristin:It's hilarious because
Matt:that's funny. Emma's perspective.
Kristin:But we we weren't we we learned about Emma obviously because Joseph Smith, right, loved Emma and loved his wife and they but but Emma was kind of this weak, being in in in, I think, how we grew up in this Brighamite 1. So it's it's it's interesting that women weren't really talked about much in ours. And there's it's it's a was a very quiet, you know, there's there is a mother in heaven, but we never talked. Did you guys growing up, would you talk about women and Emma as being a
Hilary:I think some would. It wasn't that important in my upbringing to to try to, convince me or expose me to Emma Mhmm. Other than as a historical person. But it was still all about the men and all about the Mhmm. The evolution of time and And until the eighties
Matt:really maintained this this the same patriarchal men only leadership until
Kristin:it really was because of
Matt:Eighty six. Is that right?
Hilary:Well, that's when it became official. Became official. Yeah. And is
Kristin:that and you're saying because the the lineage now is gone.
Hilary:Well, there were people there were there were people questioning, like, what's gonna happen here? Because I I I misspoke, you know. Wallace b Smith is the one that had the daughters, and his father is Wallace w Smith. And so everybody was secure when when Wallace w Smith, you know, when I was in my prime as a youth, you know, in the sixties and seventies, it was logical, his son. And he was he had his own career, but then became the prophet, the president, by, you know, common consent, voted on and approved.
Hilary:And it was known that he had two daughters, but Mhmm.
Kristin:That time it wasn't even
Hilary:It it wasn't that big of a deal until it became to the point where he's getting older, the daughters are are grown, and we need a male.
Matt:Yeah. So
Hilary:what do we do? Well But it was That's a
Kristin:good question.
Hilary:It was more I actually when I think back, it it had more to do with the idea that women were not equal. Mhmm. And why why would you just ordain men when women have knowledge, spirituality, love?
Matt:They're funny. They're funny too.
Hilary:Yeah. The same. I mean, are are I mean, are we not equal? I mean, we're different. We're different.
Kristin:My mob used to try to tell me because we would we would ask that. Like, it doesn't
Hilary:make sense. From a legal standpoint? Yeah.
Matt:Well, from a legal standpoint, should be, must be, are are they equal? Are they treated equal? Well, I think we still
Hilary:Yeah.
Matt:We're have room have room to ensure that that's
Hilary:So that that that ingrained attitude may have, you know, caused some of the riff again as to why women are being allowed into this Mhmm. Equal Right.
Matt:But again, this was another thing that caused, people within this this this church to leave and go other places.
Hilary:And and you kind of alluded to it earlier. I I was fine with women because I love my mom. I had two older sisters that I adored and looked up to and never thought of me as being better Mhmm. Or having more opportunity than what they had other than in church, because it was the male part with with priesthood. And my mom came from a family of seven girls, so that had a strong influence on me also.
Hilary:No boys in her family, so I never had to to wrestle or struggle with the idea that a woman couldn't lead or become. And I saw all kinds of examples of women that were just amazing. Yeah. And and I saw examples of men that weren't and vice versa. So it was just the way it was.
Hilary:And the way it's turned out, I think, has been a good thing, but it hasn't been a good thing for a lot of people.
Matt:Then the this idea, this this polygamy, becomes another, issue point of point of contention in a place that fractures the people again when, the Brighamite people in Salt Lake are wanting to become a state. They want Utah to be a state. But there's this tension of you can't practice spiritual wifey, plural plural marriage, polygamy, this thing, and be a state.
Hilary:Mhmm.
Matt:And so they, initially, they they said, okay, we're gonna stop it.
Hilary:Mhmm.
Matt:But they didn't stop it for for many years. They lied about it, and they were continuing to continuing to, practice it. And, you know, and I get the complexity of it because you're dealing with families. And you can't just, you know, just just shut it down.
Kristin:Well, and they send it into the outside territories that weren't states yet.
Matt:They sent it to Mexico.
Kristin:And Arizona.
Matt:Yeah. Arizona. Arizona
Kristin:wasn't a state yet.
Matt:That's right. Arizona. Mexico.
Kristin:That's what started Arizona cities.
Matt:And we've got the Yeah. What were called the colonies.
Kristin:Just not there when they were trying to make Utah state. They had to send it out to say, look, we're not doing it anymore even though
Matt:And they this is this is where like the
Kristin:Surprise they work.
Matt:The Romy family comes comes from that and the LeBaron family.
Kristin:Yeah.
Matt:But then eventually these polygamists break off to continue the God's clear and declared theology of spiritual wife, re plural marriage, and and polygamy. And that's where the FLDS or fundamentalist Latter day Saints and the Warren Jeffs group, arises out.
Hilary:Yeah. And for whatever reason looking back on it, I mean, it it appears that that was more, popular for people to support that went that way with that with that belief versus the one, you know, the church I belong to went, and took a softer approach to politics by saying, you know what? We're still gonna be here, but we're gonna go we're gonna agree we're under the laws of the land, and so we're not going to keep, you know, trying to Right. Change and force force the issue. We still can worship and have our own structure, and hopefully, that will be enough.
Hilary:So we're not we're not trying to, you know, be anti it's it's like, I wanna belong to a church that's for things instead of against things, you know, and we had that kind of attitude. And and even today, you see the same we see the same issues with what's going on with with religion or church and politics. When you look you look at the landscape today, it's just as volatile as it was back then or maybe even more so. And what as we're having this conversation and showing where the the major historical rifts came,
Matt:it's
Hilary:relevant
Matt:and significant. How intertwined these divisions, these theological and cultural and belonging type divisions are over sex and authority.