Speak Friend and Enter: A Lord of the Rings Podcast | Read Along - The Silmarillion: Chapters 7 & 8

Hosts Stephanie and Lydia discuss their favorite parts and takeaways from the Silmarillion, chapters 7 * 8.

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Speak Friend and Enter is a weekly discussion on all things Lord of the Rings hosted by friends Lydia & Stephanie. Come along with us as we explore the world of Tolkien through deep dives, read-alongs, and laugh-alongs.

Hi there, I'm Stephanie.

And I'm Lydia. Come along with us as we explore and learn about the world of Tolkien through deep dives on lore, characters, Vita-Lons and Laff-Lons. We are excited to have you as a new friend on this journey with us. Welcome to Speak Friend and Enter a Lord of the Rings podcast. Alright, welcome welcome. This is our Vita-Lon.

We are trudging very slowly through the Silver Reel. It's good that we... I don't know, it's tricky because every once in a while we hit a cliffhanger at the end of a chapter and I think, ah, if only I could read ahead, but then I don't because I'm a good girl. So here we're going to talk about chapter seven and eight. And I think this is the meat and potatoes, right? This is the Silmarils. We're getting to the good stuff, yes.

We're getting to the eponymous Silmarils at last. Exactly. Yeah, so I think we'll just work our way through the way we have previously. I have, you know, we'll just start from the beginning. I have a couple things that I already captured in the first couple sentences, so I'll start.

So here we have Feanor. And I kind of love the way Tolkien phrases this, but he says, anytime something big and dramatic and important happens, he always says it very understated. So I like the way he starts. He says, for Feanor, being come to his full might was filled with a new thought. And I was just like, that's all it took. What little spark of an idea.

And I wish I could get as much done as Feanor does when I have a little spark of an idea. Well, and he's so dramatic. He says, or it may be that some shadow of foreknowledge came to him of the doom that drew near.

He's so dramatic. But we do get our first motivation here, like our first understanding of what why the Silmarils were originally created, because I actually did not have any sense of this. I had heard of them. I had heard sort of what their form was, I guess. Like I knew they were jewel looking.

But I didn't know anything about them. And so now we see the reason that he makes it is because he saw the light of the trees and he wanted to preserve it forever. Yeah. And on the one hand, yes, go Feanor. This is excellent. And on the other hand, when you get to like people preserving things forever, I feel like you quickly go into serial killer track. Or it's like, you know what I mean? Like, is it that like crazy person serial killer motivation? Yes, the corpses on my couch.

For a reason, I'm preserving it. Oh, wow. Like almost this. Keeping it in stasis. Obsession. Yes. And I wonder if that's what we're meant to read into here or if we're meant to see, you know, he was right.

You gotta preserve the light. He was thinking, he was a forward thinking man. He was thinking, wow, when to be bad as something happened to these trees. Yeah. I don't know which way we're meant to believe because I got creepy serial killer vibes, frankly. That's really interesting. Yeah, you could look at it either way.

You could. So does the desire for him to create the simurals, does this stem from good or bad desires? I don't know. Right. Wow. All we know is that he was filled with a new thought. Like he had never had any thoughts before. My net spit is when Varda hallows the simurals.

Do you have anything in between that you wanted to chat? Yeah, no, I think that's a great, well, actually, I do think it's so interesting. It talks about kind of their look and their shape and how it's like, they were like crystals, but harder than diamonds. No one in the world knows what they were made out of.

Yeah. No one in the world knows what they were made of to this point in time, right? Like all the way through the Lord of the Rings, you would think that even the Valar who, you know, they know, learned his skills from another apprentice of Alley. Like they are all out there exactly when you put in there. I don't pour Alley.

Every time I read, I'm like, your reputation is gonna be hit by all your apprentices. And he seems so sweet, like wild. But yeah, it is like the secret material no one can, no one can reproduce it, that's for certain. And maybe that was what Feyronar was afraid of when, you know, when he made them. Because obviously, he knows what they're made of. He knows how he did it. No doubt people asked him and he's obviously not telling people. Hard enough that he doesn't just make more, right?

Yeah, that's true. Like never through this conversation, as we can be in my life. Does he think, why am I not making more? I should make more of these.

He treasures them almost like they're like a limited resource. Yes. So it must have been difficult, whatever it was. Funny. That's a good point. So a little bit after that first quote, we see the next quote here is, when he does first show them off, everyone was filled with wonder and delight at the work of Feyronar and Varda hallowed the Silmarils so that thereafter no mortal flesh, nor hands and clean, nor anything of evil, nor anything of evil will might touch them.

But it was scorched and withered. I thought that was really cool. Like here's this thing I made. I'm just going to have a god set a hex on it so that nothing unclean can touch them. And my first thought was interesting that Feyronar can touch them, obviously.

He's not unclean in the way that this is meant. Interesting. But with the way that Melkor is like, you know, later down it says that Melkor lusted after them. I thought, so is this warding going to wear off at any point? Is there a point where like, does he lust after them because he knows he can't touch them? He can never have them?

Or does the warding that Varda puts on wear off and eventually he does have them? Because I don't know the ultimate fate of the Silmarils. That's that's a mystery to me. Have not been spoiled on that. So that was my first question.

It's like, this is really cool. What Varda did does it last? Yeah. And to your point, like what kind of unclean? Because Feyronar, he gets, he gets a little obsessive, a little weird. But not unclean. This must be a very specific meaning. Fascinating. And to, yeah, basically to tie back into what we were talking about with orcs earlier orcs are obviously unclean, right? There's no chance at work to touch it. So it's kind of fun also where it's like evil has to go retrieve it for themselves.

You cannot send your grunt minions to do it for you. Just fun. And it's interesting.

I love this kind of, we see this with Melkor a lot, this desire for something light and beautiful. He wants so bad to be good, but it's so unwilling to be good. Yeah. It's like, it's fascinating to me that he creates, he is the Dark Lord, right? He creates things of darkness, but yeah, he cannot but envy and want. But he still recognizes the beauty in the light. Yeah. And I shouldn't say he wants to be good.

It feels more like he wants to have the good things, good possessions. I don't know. Yeah. All right. Stop me if I hit anything that you have something before because we then do get then Melkor lusted for the Silmarils.

Surprising, no one. Yeah. But I just love the way he phrases it. The very memory of their radiance was a nine fire in his heart from that time forth inflamed by this desire, et cetera, et cetera. So yeah, I wonder how many like of Melkor's plans were derailed when Feyenoord brought out the Silmarils. Melkor was having a great Tuesday morning. He was thinking to himself, yep, we're well on our plan. Like the path is set forward. I'll be ready to push this anytime soon, et cetera. I'll be doing xyz and then Feyenoord walks into the party with the Silmarils on and let's just like every head is turned. Every heart is lit on fire.

It's just how many people's lies were just completely derailed in that moment. I love it. Yeah. And you know what I think is so interesting too is he talks about like directly after that sentence you read, he was like, and he he sought more eagerly how he could destroy.

Right. A little fire under him. I wonder if he was getting complacent. He was like, ah, we got a couple hundred years we can destroy the elves anytime we want. But maybe this made him like snap out and be like, I need it now.

I want it now. Well, and that's so interesting because I wonder this light. So this light is the light of the trees. It's created so that it can give the world light mainly for the children of Alu Avatar. So I kind of view this light as like a not a gift, but it's like a gift between the Valar and the children of Alu Avatar. It's almost like a symbol of their relationship.

Right. And so this beautiful Simarils, this extra thing, like almost an homage to that relationship to this light that was given. And he's even more like, how can I end this friendship between the Valar and the elves? You know what I mean? Like I think he's like seeing this light, he's seeing how much the Valar care for the elves and he hates it.

Yeah. I want to go back to something you just said earlier where we're like, it's so interesting that Meltkor looks at things that are beautiful and made from the light and wants them so bad. Because you're right, actually, it is really kind of weird that he has this reaction when we see like Shelob when confronted with the star of Andrew. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I don't remember the name of that star. But when she's confronted with it, she shies away from it. She can't tolerate it.

She can't even look upon it. It's I thought about this a lot and then I had not thought about this. Let's talk about when we get there. That is interesting. Tolten has this line in the next little bit, a couple paragraphs down that I thought was really interesting because he phrases it as like a parable or like an idiom. It feels like an elvish idiom.

He says, but he that sows lies in the end shall not lack of a harvest and soon he may rest from toil indeed while others reap and sow in his stead. I just loved that. It was a perfect representation of how gossip and lies just like our carry with lightning speed. It's very interesting.

I know. And you know, it's funny guys in class the other day and they were talking about how humans are storytellers and actually societies that developed the fastest or ones that had really efficient roots of communication and could like communicate very quickly and easily and including including gossip. It was kind of like a piece of our evolution to be able to chat and talk and tell people what's going on. So yeah, it's funny to me that I think Tolkien here is a little bit like poo poo on the gossips. He's very cute. This net slide also is awesome where Malfoy is putting his plan into action.

He's like, all right, it's time to really break him up. Let's do. Yeah. Yeah, he's like, I'm done with it.

Yeah. And he says, amid his fair words, others were woven so subtly that many who heard them believed in recollection that they arose from their own thought. And I just love this. He's mastered inception. He's so persuasive. We see like the way he's spoken of is like, oh, yeah, he was fair. His words were easy on the ears.

You know, it was people with him. He's charming. You hear him say that. You hear him described like that. But the way this one was written, I was like, whoa, he is so good. He's so amazing at this. Because that is frankly how you persuade people.

You get them, you talk to them and when they leave, they think that was my idea. That's how you know you fully flipped them. So I thought that was very impressive of Malfoy. And I wish that Tolton wouldn't make me like him. He's a very impressive character.

I know. I feel for him. I feel for him the whole time. I also think, why are you doing this? Every time he makes a decision, I'm like, man, you could have chosen differently.

Couldn't have made different choices. Okay, so now we're getting into... Okay, this, I don't know if you wrote this one in, but the phrase is awesome. But Melkor spoke to them in secret of mortal men. So this is where we've talked about this. The dividing barrier between us. Yes, he found the wedge.

He found it. He's like, daddy has another son, another family. You're not the only child.

You're not the only child. This is hard news to bear. And frankly, I can see that this would be hard news for the elves to bear, even if there was no Melkor. Even it was just a Valar who eventually had to say, all right, you know, cat's out of the bag. There's this new creature. It's called human. They are awesome special.

Daddy loves you too. Yeah, I think the elves are proud. And I think that that would have been difficult for them to hear in any context. And of course, Melkor is going to light a flame under that and make sure that it works to his advantage. But there was another angle to his persuasion, which I didn't anticipate.

I thought was really interesting because we talked out for a long time, last time, about how it's so interesting that the elves were invited to heaven to live with the gods. And there was all this resistance and drama and struggle surrounding that. And I... Getting them there. And getting them there. Whereas when I was thinking about it, I was like, I don't understand how can you mine this for drama? People would just go to heaven.

So what I like now is that Melkor has flipped in. He says, you're not in heaven. You are being held captive.

The Valar invited you here and now they're keeping you here. And that was very clever of him. It's wrong. But it's so interesting that that was the route he took. And then obviously, it ties into the, you know, there's not the only child because then he says, men are coming and they're going to take the Middle Earth. And that's why the Valar... They're going to take your land.

Yeah. And the Valar tricked you into coming here. And I really liked now, and I just bet that Tolkien set it up as like the elves were slow in coming. They took them a while because with that, with the fact that they were slow, you can legitimately say those are elvish lands. They lived there for a thousand... They lived there for many years. Many, many years. Not going to say years, but many years until they came finally to Valar. So like, the elves have a like a relationship with that land. That's where they were born, right? Under the stars.

So yeah, I don't know. I was interested in the way he took his arguments. It was really fascinating to me because so in the next chapter, we're going to see Feanor having some... Well, actually, I think even in this chapter, yeah, we're going to have some... We're going to have some family drama, right?

And it's so fascinating to me that there's a couple of elements in what Melchor uses. But part of it is this idea of like, not being fully loved or cared for. Like you're not the only priority.

You're not the only priority. And also, I think he even goes harder than that where it's like, you might have thought that you were the firstborn, the first love, the best loved. But in fact, these other creatures, these men are being brought in and they're going to take your place. They're going to take your inheritance, which is how it's phrased. Defrauding the elves of the inheritance of Eluvatar.

And that is straight biblical, right? This is... Who am I forgetting his fricking name? Esau and... Oh, Jacob. Jacob, yeah. Esau and Jacob. Esau and Jacob, like all kinds of statisms.

And that's a great example of one that is real world. But Esau and Jacob, like other sorts of splits in any sort of scenario happen because of inheritance. So now I'm like, what do the elves think the inheritance of Eluvatar is? You know? What are they thinking that man is going to deprive them of? Because man, they may not know this.

Man doesn't have long lives. Like... I know. Yeah, they may not know this at all. And they may not know that the inheritance of man, like just like everything about man is like different. It's tangential. It's separate though. Like it's not the same. So I'm sure Melchor didn't tell them that. I don't know.

Maybe he did. No, no. Yeah. Well, I don't know.

I'm curious how much the Valar even knew about men and what they would structurally be like. I don't know. Yeah. But I think it's interesting too, because the Valar didn't say anything. And this kind of makes me think about management. And management, like the way that they communicate or don't communicate news, I think gives people more of an opportunity to build their own narrative.

And they did so much room for all this to happen. Yeah. Right.

Yeah. To build their own narrative and come up with their own ideas. So like getting ahead of something. They were late on the ball for this.

They probably didn't think. Yeah. Also, the Valar... But they probably looked at the elves and thought they're not ready to hear this hard truth.

And so maybe that's why Melchor was able to come in with perfect timing. They are not ready. And I'm going to tell them. Yeah.

I also have to say, I love the Valar. And I don't know if this is because they're a big group. It's hard to make decisions. But I always feel like they're a smidge past... Do.

You know what I mean? Like they're a smidge past kicking Melchor out, saying you're ruining all our creation. They're a smidge past like the elves are there in the dark. And they're like, oh my gosh, they're here. They got to go and like bring them in. Like I just feel like they're a smidge late in all of their situations.

And I don't know if that's because there's a lot of them. I think we should just probably blame Manway and call it good. Yeah.

Manway's not as decisive. Yeah, exactly. I think the next line after that quote about inheritance is really interesting too, where it says, but many of the nolder believed or half believed the evil words. I thought that was an interesting commentary on, you know, your actions, we think we're more in control of our actions than we really are.

Because a lot of our actions and the way we react to things come out of things that we only have to believe. Like it only takes a little lie, a little lie to creep in for you to like turn away from something that would otherwise be good. I guess I was like the impression I got. A little bit of fear, a little bit of, yeah. So it, you don't have to believe fully in the thing for it to mess you up, I think. It's like a doubt.

It's like a doubt creeping into your mind. I think so. And sometimes, yeah. Yeah. So that was interesting to me.

Let's see. What is Manet's one? Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Manet's one and stopped me at any point when you need to cut in. No, I love this, yeah.

He, Manet's one is great. He says, for feign or be damned to love the similar elves with a greedy love, et cetera, et cetera. And then he ends it with, he seldom remembered now that the light within them was not his own. I thought that was really interesting.

And that's where I felt, oh, feign or man, you are crossing some lines. We all know where light that any character that Tolton writes as even vaguely possessive becomes an evil dark lord. I know. Greed is not good in this series.

No, this is, this is a road you can't go down. So, but that was an interesting turn because we start with his motivation as, oh, I will preserve that, that godly light. Almost like admiration. Well, admiration, but it almost felt like, why do you preserve things if not for your children, if not for the people around you? It felt like his initial motivation was, I will preserve this for all else.

I will preserve this for my people. I read, if you, if you read into it charitably and not with the serial killer vibes, right? That's, that's how I would read it. And here we have, sure you done preserved it, but only for yourself and just a pure undermining of his potential original intention. Now I think people are saying, oh, Feyenoord, those so, those similes are so amazing.

How did you do that? And he's like, well, thank you. Yeah, they, they are amazing.

Thank you very much. There's gotta be some element of that people like fluffing him up. But I also think I wonder how much of it is him recognizing the greed of other people when they see them. Yeah, yeah.

You know, it could be already, and I don't see why it wouldn't be. He walks into a banquet hall with these scenes and heads are turning and he, he feels at that seething jealousy, right? And maybe he's just like this big chain with like the three like, hey, Feyenoord rolling up and everyone's like, who does he have? I was imagining it. I think at one point it says it was on his forehead. So I was imagining it in a crown. That's probably more elegant.

It could be more elegant, but I really liked your gangster rap chain. But yeah, I don't know. I think it could be a reaction of other people's greeds. He's like, no, these are mine. And then he forgets that, you know, even originally they weren't his. So I love that line.

I feel like in that line, you did a lot of this, the fall of Feyenoord. And then we get to the family drama. Yes, we're getting family drama.

Let's see. Yeah, so we have, you know, Melchor spreading lies everywhere. And so we're, we basically have the schism between like Feyenoord and Fiendolfin.

And things are bad. But what I thought was really interesting is that while he's making that schism happen, we haven't like gotten to the, the full conclusion of it yet. There's this line where he says, Melchor saw that these lies were smoldering, blah, blah, blah. And he spoke to the Noldor concerning weapons.

And that was interesting because you get the sense that he speaks and it says so later, like this, this is the quote that I thought was really cool. Shields also they made displaying the tokens of many houses and tindereds that vied one with another. And these only they wore abroad. And of other weapons, they did not speak for each believe that he alone had received the warning. So I could just imagine Melchor going to each of them and saying, Hey, Hey, guess what? You know, those guys that you hate that beat you at football last year, they're making weapons. And then the next day, the forage is lit and the smithy is active. And everyone is like, there's like no metal in town because everyone is busy making weapons, but none of them will look each other in the eye and admit that they're all making weapons. So they're walking around with shields and no swords. And I just like that imagery so there's so much conflict in there that there's a secret cold war happening that you can walk around with your shield. And everyone looks at you and thinks, So what's that shield for? What's that shield going to defend against?

Like, where's the, what's going to hit against that shield that no one will speak of it? Just like this. I just loved that imagery. You know, it's so funny because I read this and this almost felt to me like this paragraph about the origins of war, basically. I think so too. Like a Pandora's box almost like this is the moment when people start violence towards each other. Yeah, Melchor had been stealing people and doing violent acts, but this is the first kind of recording of potential violence against one another between the children of Eluvatar. Yeah. And yeah, there was like a funny side to it of like everyone in the Smithy secretly working on swords and pretending that they weren't. And then there's a very sad side of it of they're walking around with these shields pretending like there won't be weapons soon. Like, yeah, I also read it that way as the first hit of that internet scene violence.

Yeah, I don't know. That was a very eye-tatching scene for me. I think something else that's interesting, which is slightly before this. So this is what Melchor says to these two parties. They say, he says, beware, small love has the proud son of Muriel ever had for the children of Indus. Right. And so, and then he also says, and how he has become great and he has his father in his hand.

It will not be long before he drives you forth. Right. And so it's so interesting because basically it says your brother who's not fully related to you, right? They references the moms. He's like brother from another mother.

Sure. He does like you that much. And guess what?

Daddy likes him better than you. Yeah. You know what I mean? Frankly, he's not even wrong. He's not wrong because when Feyenoord is banished, guess who goes with him? Finway.

Daddy. Yeah. So it's fun to see like actual quotes from Melchor between like where is the truth and where is the lie? Oh, interesting. Mostly truth.

But you only need one little twist for the real lie, right? But I also think, and maybe I'm putting too much credit into elves, it sounds like they have a lot of the same emotions that we do as humans, right? And a lot of the same hurt and a lot of the same, you know, pride. But part of me thinks like, why keep this enmity? Why not go to that person?

Why not talk to them? Why not like, I don't know, it seems interesting to me that it's like, why escalate? Why is that the have they had buttons before or they've tried to do this? Are they tired of communicating with each other?

Like, why is this the default option? There is that switch between healthy competition and like enemies, I think. This is over the enemies.

Yeah. I think we're seeing the switch from that to enemies. And obviously, the crimes that Tolkien gives his villains are pride, possessiveness and greed and how I just hunger in a sort of way that kind of feeds into all those. And so there's that line here just above where it says, and Melchor saw that pride and aimed to wear a weight among the Noldor. So he knew they were ripe for it.

You know, it's all pride. It's all aimed at her, which is so we talked about this a little bit last time, but it's so interesting to read these elves because they are just so hotheaded. And so I don't know, I guess, into person to men, maybe not, but they just read so emotional right now. They read so emotional, but it makes me wonder because like Galadriel, she's been alive since then. Like she's had eons.

Oh my gosh. So she's around since the beginning of war. Yeah.

She's yeah. So like interesting. I think maybe the elves that we see have had a long time to mellow out.

You know. Yes, I could see that. So the next scene that I thought was really interesting was, you know, Fendolfin is talking to his father and he's like basically complaining about Feanor to him, right? And he gets caught in the act and Feanor comes in, but he's fully armed. And this is the first time we see reference to somebody walking around with weapons, which by the way, Tolkien describes as Feanor made fell swords for his children. Like he does not even pretend that they were good looking swords. They were fell swords.

Very cool. Which means to to kill, right? To fell.

Well, no, it has connotations. They're fell swords. Hold on. We're going to look up the word fell. This is our take. The usual.

That's funny because I was like, oh, are they they're like pretty symbolic swords or they're fell swords? Yeah, no, I wish I could find it. Hang on. All right.

Here we go. Fell of terrible evil or ferocity deadly. So like it comes in the it comes in the context of like you would say a fell beast, right? Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, no, he's that was the descriptor he put on the much that was interesting.

And then we have Feanor being the first one to walk around with his helm and his sword. So of course, it's him. He's kicking it off basically.

He's making the Cold War dough hot. And he says so it is even as I guessed my half brother, Taddling, which is basically the quote. And it's interesting because when they have this first initial strife, where like, Feyenoord draws his sword, etc. said he says, did they go on take the place to fiendolfin? Fiendolfin like backs out of it. He's not willing to protect.

He won't say anything. Yeah, I thought that was very good of him. But he backs out, he leaves, he tries to evade essentially.

And Feyenoord basically pins him to the door with his sword. Bull. If I was to add, I'd be pissed right now. Yeah. But Fiendolfin really holds it together, which I thought was interesting.

He has a level of restraint that was I think impressive because there was a lot of profitation. But the other thing that came to mind here is this is a tain enable. We are going to see the first murder, the first bloodshed. And it is the first bloodshed, period. Because it does say that it pierces him a little bit, I think. Oh no, maybe not. I lie. We don't know for sure if blood was shed. You said it against his breast, but we don't know if it was bloody.

But yeah, so this is a tain enable. And I just, there's something about brother v. brother. And I don't know. I don't know why that that type of mythology feels so true.

Maybe because tain enable is the theme, right? Maybe that's how it all went down, right? But it does seem very fitting.

That's wild. Yeah, I didn't even draw that analogy, but there is a lot with brothers and yeah just everything surrounding like this family and the sense of competition about being favored I'm thinking of Romulus and Remus even exactly. I don't know so much It makes me wonder why family supposed to be your your closest your protection your safe space Yeah, maybe if you don't feel that they become your most Yeah, I think it's gonna be something like that I think there has to be something like that where it's either really good or it's really bad. It's really bad Yeah, there's fascinating Okay, what else we got in here?

Do do do do? Okay, here we go All right, so there's so much unrest and at some point the Valor are like what is happening here? They notice it They're like wait a second They're second too late, but they come to yes, but here's the thing they come in and they're like faint or you naughty boy You were making swords and using swords Etc. So they call him to answer for himself. He was summoned to appear and At this point with everyone talking and figuring things out He then says then at last the route was laid bare and the malice of melchor revealed and straight way Tultus left the council to lay hands upon him and bring him again to judgment And I can just see him sitting in council He's leaning forward and fey and or doesn't even say melchor He he gets to the M of the name and told us like that's it.

I'm out I'll go get up on and he's just out I don't know for him. It's been suspicious this whole time Way yeah said it's fine. You're on parole Focus has been mmm, you know, I can kind of see like thinking in the back of his head like it's not a good idea Yeah, so I just loved that that image of him just bouncing immediately to apprehend him Which he does not succeed regrettably But then it also talks about how like fey nor was not held ill is and he shouldn't be because you know He was doing bad things Then we see another moment of fendolfin having great restraint. We slide Yeah, I will release my brother like I'm not pressing charges But fey nor spoke no word in answer and he is frickin prideful Yeah, he could have resolved it right there. I honestly feel like a lot of the the issues are with fey nor Yeah, unfortunately.

Yeah, he's not a good dude Yeah, so that was just an interesting moment site. Ah, you were so close you could have fixed it just resolve this Yeah, you could have resolved it I don't have a ton of other quotes. Oh, I think we're almost at the end of chapter I don't have a ton of other quotes in it other than the ones we talked about but there's a couple of other sections So Melchor has left. He's you know, he's on the out Melchor bounces once he hears that fey nor is going. Yeah fey nor is banished He takes his sons with him.

He takes his father with him turns out Melchor was right and there's a line somewhere in here that says Something about fey nor's heart was still bitter at his humiliation before mandos So and this is when Melchor is coming to him to try to persuade him to do stuff. So Yeah, it's just interesting. He is so prideful But not and maybe so prideful that he can't be convinced by Melchor Maybe that was almost a protection for him, but it doesn't seem like he needs any help doing evil. So Or doing not good Yeah, it's interesting because kind of so fey nor like you said he goes off he brings his dad He brings a similar else.

He's like I'll go to banishment with my family and I'll just do my own thing But it does say like the seeds that Melchor had sown and dirt and lived still long afterwards Between the sons of engulfed and fey nor so even though it's like we're moving on there's still that that kind of enmity and And So, I don't know do we want to do the little last piece where Melchor then comes comes back to fey nor? Oh sure. Yeah, if you want to talk through it, I didn't have any particular quotes that I stole from that So I just dipped like a bad girl.

I just thought it was interesting. Yeah So I guess just to summarize quickly we can move on to chapter eight But towards the end of this chapter kind of to summarize so fey nor goes off banished But then Melchor so he's been bouncing right? He's like, okay.

I'm gone. I actually thought this hilarious It says now Melchor knowing that his devices had been revealed Hit himself and passed from place to place as a cloud in the hills and Tulk is sought for him in vain And I know this sounds funny, but I just picture Melchor like changing his appearance to a fluffy white cloud He's like And he's just a little fluffy cloud Yeah, exactly well, he did initially he's the one who came down and got him the first time so Hopefully better luck in the future, but I just loved that and then Melchor has his last little Effort to try to get in with fey nor right? He's like maybe not all is lost and I can kind of you know Make a partnership maybe do something with similar else with fey nor again, so he comes down from his fluffy cloud He says ah fey nor like you were banished that's so unfair He's kind of like offering his help and like yeah exactly I'm trying to get out of here. Yeah exactly like you always said you wanted to leave here Like I can get you out and fey nor still like you're the one who got me in trouble So he feels a little bit upset with him Well, I think what's interesting is that when Melchor is trying to persuade him fey nor is receptive until he mentioned Yeah, so he touches on his precious and we really did that vibe here What's like you just can't say anything about the silver alice to fey nor because that's his precious He'll suspect he'll suspect you and he was right obviously and I'm sure Melchor thought he was being terribly Terribly clever in the way he phrased it, but he couldn't hide how much he was interested in it Exactly, and so that's ultimately what did in that kind of alliance there is Melchor mentions the simmer else He said you should you should want to get out of here because the Valor are gonna want your simmer else And he's like why are you bringing up my simmer? He's getting a little defensive and so that's the end of the conversation Melchor bounces and it sounds like There's no other like further option for an alliance or kind of anything there between the two And told him does say that fey nor is not technically under Melchor's thrall Well, yeah, that's pretty clear and I think even with what he was doing here. It's still pretty clear He does not come off well But he's not with Melchor. He's not with more subservient Influenced he was definitely influenced but it's not with him and then just because I love the cloud analogy so much As Melchor fled from the hill and the elves has and the elves has seen him past as wrath as a thunder cloud So he turns from this fluffy white innocuous cloud to this angry little thunder cloud so funny actually I love that as he goes away I had almost called kids back to like Dracula mist where like the vampire can turn into a mist as one of their Corporal forms That is really cute.

Yeah, and then it has another cloud analogy I don't know how this goes on but the very last paragraph it says and so, you know The Valar are looking for him But it says and then it was as a cloud far off that looms higher and higher and higher with the slow Basically the angry little thunder cloud just slowly drifts off and Valar is never able to find him So that's the end of chapter seven. Yeah, I love that. That is hilarious. I'll never looked at clouds the same All right, I do it this one is called yes of the darkening of Valinor so we know what's happening here Yeah, this is the good stuff. I love it. So wild So there's a Speaking of clouds, there's a quote in here at the end of the first paragraph where it says for Melchor was yet as one of The Valar and could change his form or walk on clad as could his brethren though that power he was soon to lose forever I don't I Don't know why that stood out to me other than like if I had shape-shifting powers. I would never give them up That's so frigging useful.

We just saw him evade all the Valar with his shape shift having a cloud So I'm a little bit like Why is he going to lose these? And I don't think it was ever said I didn't touch it in chapter eight. So if you caught it, let me know But you know, I thought the same thing. I'm not 100% sure but I'll have to look at it That was not clear that there's a reason for him to lose it Other than maybe choice, but I don't know why you choose that when clouds have served you so well Yeah, and I should clarify I think Tolkien talks about as as a cloud. I'm picturing it literally. Oh, you turn into a cloud Now I'm with you 100% And I love his after rejection by Fane or he's not with Thunder Cloud All right, something else that should only exist in cartoons, nasty huge spiders So here we did our introduction to Andoliant and so it talks kind of at long length about like various Geographies and how Andoliant has made her lair here and there etc. I Really like the description of her when it gets down to Here is the ravine like we zoom out from the world to and here is this ravine where she lives it says She took shape as a spider of monstrous form Weaving her black webs in a cleft of the mountains there She sucked up all light that she could find and spun it forth again in dark nets of strangling bloom Until no light more could come to her abode and she was famished So like the line above I should have read it was something like for she hundred for light and hated it Oh Nation Yeah, and we kind of like taught this through of like Melkor he hunters for the light well In a slightly different sense he hunters for things that were made by the light Does he also hate it he must but he doesn't he doesn't seem to have that I don't know that reaction a dint of it But yeah, this sense of like monsters and evil being hungry being famished. They're always starving It's powerful I feel I know a hundred reading this actually I had to eat some No, and I do think it's interesting. Oh, yeah a couple of things here. I love this chapter so first of all I think overall the point of this chapter is Melkor bounces he's been found out he realized he's not gonna have an alliance with feynor to cause more disruption And so well, he's not going to have an elven face on his exactly anymore, right exactly So now he says okay how can I kind of finish my goal of Creating chaos overthrow as much as I can of the Valar and He wants the similar else.

Yeah, right like so that's kind of his okay. What's my next? plot part of my plan and And that's why he seeks out Angolian and we get this amazing description of her and what I love So man, I was doing some research on Tom Bombadale because he's such an interesting character And one of the thoughts about him is that you know because he's able to handle the ring in the Hobbit Or not in the Hobbit. I think it's in the fellowship it's It's a consideration that maybe he is like the spirit of Arda In physical form right like he's not necessarily a being as much as he's a spirit representing the bigger World, yeah, I've never really thought about him. I know nothing about yeah, him speculation of him. That's interesting But the reason why I bring it up is someone compared potentially him to this description of Angoliant where let's see if I can find it where she where she kind of Came from where it's talking about maybe she was the darkness from the beginning Yeah, where she was the darkness from the beginning.

Let's see if I can if I can find it Where did it go? Well, maybe I can speak to it if I can't I found it I think the direct quote Oh amazing the elder knew not once she came But some have said that in ages long before she descended from the darkness that lies about Arda When Meltor first looked down in Envy upon the kingdom of Manway And then it says and that in the beginning she was one of those that he had corrupted to his service So yeah, basically the thought would be when is this is a thought that when Meltor looked at the creation of Arda And he was seething with jealousy and Envy there was a darkness created and she came out of that. Yeah Yeah, exactly. So like potentially a tombombo is like the the the representation of Illuvitar's Arda and Angoliant is a saying that the light and the dark have in themselves physical form. Yeah, exactly and Angoliant is a representation of Melchor's kind of angst and Unsatisfaction built in creation song.

Yeah. Yeah built into the creation song and she took form so I also think if that's something that you're gonna go along with I think it's fascinating because a little bit skipping ahead When Angoliant sucks the trees dry it says that Melchor was a little bit scared Yes, I also had such hunger that it almost scared him And if she is an embodiment of his own dissatisfaction and constant need for like more power How fascinating is that that you could scare yourself? Well and to look at it as like If that were the case he would be getting an outside perspective on like One of his core traits and I think it's rare. I mean, maybe I'm just very bad at introspection, which I am But I do think it's like kind of rare to get that kind of outside perspective on some trait and to have that moment of self-reflection And obviously he's an evil dude. So self-reflection is not gonna be fun for him. I think And and we see that as not right because I marked that same quote Have to scroll down for an minute But yeah, I thought something that was interesting and this is ties back into that first bit where it says that he gives up His power to shape shift it says that when he went to her He took on the form that he had worn as the tyrant of a tomb know a dark lord tall and terrible in that form He remained ever after and I thought that was really interesting because we see him coming to this crossroads where He can no longer put an elven face his own he can no longer put an elven face on personally He can't use an elven proxy like feanor and so he's finally come to it where he's like these are my allies It's an evil spider darkness.

No one is going to look at this thing and think I yes Surely there's good in here, right? He's come I don't know if I would say he's fallen but he has come Maybe he has fallen to like hard times essentially where it's like this is not his first reaction He didn't come to enroll in right away, which is interesting. He tried these other trickery is these other means So I think it's interesting that now he's got he has cast off the pretence There's no more pretending he is in his form and Probably his preferred form because this is what he wore like this is the form he wore when he was in full power at last time So yeah, I just thought it was interesting that he no longer tried to hide We're now in the open and I guess when you have somebody like andolian with you You feel like you can get away with a lot of things in the open. You're like I look pretty good actually Also that and then I had the other thought I was like does he feel like he needs to stare her? Like he needs to be the one in control He needs to appear dark and terrible because that's how she's going to recognize her He wants her to be subservient right? Yeah, and you know, it's interesting as we can't we think of milk or as the ultimate evil And even on goalie at the way this is written you get a sense of some piece of her was spurned kind of from him Yeah, but he's like I said before I don't get the sense that he's not in control I'm sure he would love to be she comes off to me as very like wild Yeah, yeah very driven By by like primitive primeval Sensations she just has her desires. She does always hungry through yeah, exactly.

Yeah So that was interesting and I if we go with what the assumption is up above about like He previously had corrupted her and worked with her then it would make sense for him to resume his form of light Remember your boss. It's me. I'm back. Maybe it would make sense to use that form again. Yeah. Yeah, for sure I thought it was interesting. It was so much there Okay, I Think it's funny. So he goes they have this big reunion. Oh, he kind of convinces her I thought it was interesting. He lies to her.

I know right away. He can't even control himself He lies to her and basically says anything that you if you're still hungry anything that I can give you You know, I will give you I love the way he phrases it. I'll give it to you with both hands and both hands Yeah, I just And then he laughed in his heart and I'm like you're not that sneaky dude like she scares you They talked about like climbing this mountain just to like see what's out there and to see the delay of the land I think So like she climbs all the way up her creepy crawly mountain and drops a ladder down for him And then they go off to go to Valar to Valar rather Yeah Yeah, and I thought this is so interesting. She cloaks them With her web of darkness very cool and the way the darkness is a strivelator. I saved one of those quotes I love the way it's described So good as they go off to Valar and I know this is not true. There's probably a definite like Lore behind the cloaks that are in Lord of the Rings But you know how in the movie they always seem to make those cloaks like invisibility cloaks almost like they throw the cloak over Themselves and nobody can see them. Yeah, you know and so for a second I thought there's a bunch of those spiders and Merckwood You know what I mean that make all of those webs and kind of all of that that craziness that we see and I thought How wild would it be if those cloaks for me out of some kind of webbing of darkness that just kind of blends into the shadows You know, I'd be super interesting. This is the weapon we don't need orcs to have That's true.

That's true to love them up too quickly and her he was wouldn't be able to keep up Yeah, exactly. Also, I can't see elves really using evil spider webs, but I just thought it could be interesting. Yeah Um, so while they're busy doing all that cloaking, we are having an elvish feast Yeah, it's a party over in Valorant party.

I thought it was really funny the reasons given for the party. It's basically that Varda, I think Yeah, I think it's Varda Varda said well, we live in the Garden of Eden But we're still gonna live somewhere that there's order and a schedule So anytime like the first fruits of whatever the season was they'd have a feast and you know, I love that Because there is something to be said and I actually have been trying to do this a little bit of like being a little bit more Seasonal in the way you live and not simply saying Yeah, I will be having this and this and this because I can But instead of the season was like we got a fruit box Last this last harvest season I guess and they were sending us all kinds of fruits But let me tell you I learned a lot about plum season. I don't believe I'd ever had a plum Really? Yeah, I don't think so and I ate probably 40 pounds of plums No, it was so much. It was so much fruit. It's unbelievable But it was really trying to make a sugar plum, right?

I mean we did all sign all kinds of things with them Food processing wise but like it was fun for that two-week period to know. Oh, this is plum season I'm supposed to be eating plums next year. I could look forward to plum season again, but I don't have to eat anymore right now I have the The nature scheduled break exactly so they're having their nature scheduled nature scheduled breaks And I thought it was interesting that Manway said Feyenoord you must come to this party if you don't show your busted and he does come and It goes pretty well, right? I'm having I had a hard time reading I was kind of curious about your impression Because Fingolfin is doing all this reaching out Yeah, and he has been from the beginning and he takes the opportunity to do it now And he even says thou shalt lead and I will follow may no new grief divide us So he is making strong reconciliation says his brother Feyenoord.

Yeah. Yeah, and Feyenoord says I hear thee so be it and Then Tultrid says this nasty foreshadowing he says but they did not know the meaning that their words would bear What does he mean? So I did not get a good impression of this like I wanted this to be a happy moment and I did not feel That way and I could I could almost I could see it as Feyenoord giving this like Extremely sarcastic or reluctant reply like the attitude I don't believe you. Yeah, I'm not and then maybe it's because Feyenoord then tries to like Domineer them or something. I don't know what happens in the future, but I'm not getting good vibes from this I don't think Feyenoord has repented and Fiendolfin didn't have anything to repent of anyways I know well, I guess he didn't have to make weapons, but he probably was thinking in defense I Know I think I don't want to say what's gonna happen in the future because I'm not 100% But you kind of know but I feel like wait, have you been cheating? Have you been reading ahead? No This is through great fine. Yeah You are allowed to do that So I I'm not sure but my guess is because we know that Melkor comes and he you know, they suck all the life out of the trees and he does a great raid of Valinor But my guess is I think Feyenoord is gonna ask Fingolfin To go to battle or do something against Melkor And Fingolfin's gonna be like I don't know dude I don't think we want to like all go to war and do this thing Okay, so maybe Feyenoord will do some kind of command and he will be disobeyed and then lose it That's what I'm thinking is so if Fingolfin's like, okay, you'll lead I'll follow Yeah, but I think that's gonna be a promise.

He's gonna regret. That's my that's my guess cool I love that that is something to look forward to So while all this is happening at the feast Melkor and Indolient are out there doing their worst Yeah, she's so It's just so ugly the way it's raised Indolient sucked up the light and going then from tree to tree She set her black beech to their wounds until they were drained and then they were withered I thought this was interesting and still she thirsted and going to the wells of Varda She drank them dry but Indolient belched forth black vapors as she drank and swelled to a shape so vast and hideous that melted words afraid So I have two questions. Well one main question. What are the wells of Varda?

I might miss you. This is What are they? You know, I'm not entirely sure. I was just getting the impression of like The fresh water that that they used in Varda, but I actually don't know if there's something special Yeah, in my mind Let me see. I guess I just thought I Kind of assumed it was a well of light But that doesn't actually make sense so Yeah, oh actually the wells of Varda also known as the vats.

I don't like vats of Varda. We're great shining lakes and They held water. Oh, okay.

So it is literal wells Wells yes, so beautiful beautiful shining lakes. Wait, sorry. That's wild. She drank them dry Yeah, and they were very deep. Oh, yeah And the Meyer would occasionally draw light From them to nourish Valinor.

Okay, so they maybe have they're sitting there next to the trees They maybe have some real reflection of the light in them, etc. So there's a reason she's wrong to it. Okay Yeah, and then we kind of commented on this before I love that Malcolm was afraid in that moment like oh, no Yeah, I'm losing control here He's like what is happening?

Yeah, he sees this. Yeah, so I really enjoyed that and then immediately after that So obviously the trees are drained and it says the light failed But the darkness that followed it was more than loss of light In that hour was made a darkness that seemed not Lack but a theme with being of its own Which is such a great way of phrasing this because you know, we always think of darkness as just being the absence of light So to introduce darkness capital D, which is its own entity its own theme unto itself That's really foreboding and And it is interesting Well, there's no other thing to call it but darkness it should have its own name and I'm sure an elvish it does Because it's its own phenomenon, but you can't describe it. How can you describe something like that? You can only say it was so dark Yeah, so I love that description is very spookifying. I Love it too, and then it's in that darkness That they escape and I think it's so interesting man way He looks out and man way can can pierce it and he can see this dark shape moving and he says there they go Right and he sets tolka a sonorum and yet again too late But they're and they're blinded by the darkness right so you get that man ways on this mountain He can kind of see through but they're struggling and This probably isn't the best way to end this but and I love it But so soon as any came up with the cloud of Angoliant And they exit in the black of night I was thinking as I read this because you know, we have all these like near misses if this were a Comedy cartoon you could make a montage of all those there They throw it in and you'd have no action here and there. It's just like always winning always a straight bean He's the villain they can never catch Yeah, so I was sad for told us Me too because it says at the end. Yeah, gore had gone whether he would and his vengeance was achieved.

So it's like Dang it. They didn't catch him. Yeah, they tried. I also had that that ending line quoted. I was like, that's a cool line And I want to know what's gonna happen as but we don't know But we will read the chapter titles.

Let's see. So That was seven and I'm yeah Nine of the flight of the noldor so that's intriguing Because what we know right now is that the noldor are all puffed up and they're about to fight and They're gonna fight somebody probably themselves And I maybe I'm assuming that means that they're fleeing from Valor I like the light is gone. So there's nothing left for them there Anyways, they might as well go back to their original lands and just like live by the stars Yeah, well, and and I don't know when this is happening, but I think the next iteration we've done the lamps We've done the trees the next iteration is the Sun in the You're right. So I don't know when the Valor are going officially into the Valor's very busy every Every age essentially where they're like, we were incompetent for these couple things, but don't worry. We are so good at light sources We've had practice in those exactly.

Oh my goodness for reals. They have leveled up every time, but I wish we still had trees So chapter 10 of the Sindar I might be blinking on somebody, but I if we've met the Sindar I do not remember who they are. They're a different elvish ones stayed Not in Valor. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I think the Sindar were okay in middle earth. Cool. I'm I Look forward with the dread for reading through all the different elvish tribes.

None of them stuff It's different old or no door stuff. I know I have to go through and remember myself But I'm very happy. We're getting to the crux of the story. Yeah, things are happening people Yeah, things are happening.

I'm enjoying this. This is a lot easier of a read than I thought it would be The chapters are just nice. Yeah, and maybe it's because we're doing piecemeal and we did to chat about it Like it's it's going easy Soon, let's see. It's we're nearly halfway through roughly, Divertate Soon, I will be able to go to the library in the bookstore and all places that books live And I won't have to avert my eyes and shame every time I see this You'd be like, oh, hey Exactly yeah, long time no see perfect. All right, cool. We'll do more on that next time Okay, thanks guys. Ciao You You