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You are a business owner who wants to prioritize people and planet over profits (without sacrificing success). That can feel lonely—but you are not alone! Join host Becky Mollenkamp for in-depth conversations with experts and other founders about how to build a more equitable world through entrepreneurship. It’s time to change the business landscape for good!
Becky Mollenkamp (00:00.848)
We're back. Hi. Another episode here to talk about culture as we explore the feminist founders framework. Ooh, that can be hard to say. The feminist founders framework discussing what it means to bring your vision, this vision for a new world, a better world, a more equitable world into the business place. And we've talked already about setting that vision and then personal leadership and leadership of and with others.
as you begin to execute on that vision. And now we're moving into what does it look like to create a culture that embodies that vision? And I don't know, I'm excited to talk with you about this faith because in my mind, when I think culture, what I sort of am envisioning from the leadership standpoint is what happens in the room when I'm not there, when it's other people. And now, again, whether that means your team, because you have employees, but I always want to make sure I know a lot of our folks are solopreneurs.
But I think that also means when people are talking about my business, when people are talking about me, when either contractors would be talking, if someone else says, you've been a contractor with them, should I? Or, you worked with them, should I hire them? Right? Or other peers are talking about you when you're not in the room. To me, culture is what is it that's being said about me, the atmosphere that is inside of the space? Are my values clear? Is that vision clear? Is it happening without me in the room?
That's what I think of when I think of culture. that feel right? Because you do a lot of work around culture a lot more than I do, so I'm curious to hear what you think of when you think of culture.
Faith Clarke (01:37.974)
So I think when I think about culture, so I think I'm Jamaican. When people hear about Jamaican, when they think about Jamaican, they think about, the phrase I hear people trying to imitate is wagwan, which is a relaxed greeting. It's that what's happening, but in a very laid back way. So people often...
see Jamaican culture as laid back, as fun, as, you know, that kind of thing. And so it's the, it's the combination. People are using little behaviors, attitudes, whatever they see as rituals and rhythms when they watch ads or watch movies where Jamaica is, they're using all that to put together a picture and whatever they're doing, there's a consistency across what people perceive, right?
And so my question is usually similar to culture when you think of a person where they're from, or a community and neighborhood. It's what are the little behaviors? What are the little beliefs? What are the attitudinal pieces? What are the emotional components that everybody in the space is just doing and having and experiencing on repeat? It's the stuff that's happening. So when you say, what's life like around here?
What's that thing that in Jamaica, it's raining, people, half the kids don't show up at school. We just have a thing about what happens when it rains. What's that thing that most people in the space think, feel, and do together? And so when I'm working with teams and working with leaders, I usually try to just hear.
as people talk about their interactions with each other, I can kind of pick up elements of the culture. Is it that you feel like you can't approach the leader or is there an open door policy? Is the open door policy real enough? Do you feel like you can actually say what's going on or is there some kind of reticence, the need to have it right or not? Is there fear that if you say the wrong thing, you will be fired or is there comfort in some kind of
Faith Clarke (03:59.242)
mistake making? Is there a feeling of support is healthy or is support a sign of your own disability as a worker? You know, like what are some of these intangibles that are in space? And I try to listen for it and I'll ask people like what do people believe around here? And not just what should they believe, often our values are aspirational, right? But what do they actually believe around here?
and what do you find that people tend to do around here in meetings, not in meetings, are the meetings silent or are they, you know, are people participating? Do you all feel like, Whoa, I hate the meetings. I wish we didn't have them. All of those things give me indicators as to what's, what's habituated in this place right now. Because if we don't know what the habits are, what's the present culture that we can't design culture. Cause you're trying to design a shift.
from whatever is happening to whatever will be. And if you are by yourself, just know that culture emerges whether you design it or not. So there is a culture that exists between you and the independent contractor that's helping you with your taxes once a year, or whatever it is. There is some kind of habit of belief and emotion that's happening there. It's there, have you designed it or?
or are you just kind of, yeah, whatever shows up, shows up.
Becky Mollenkamp (05:28.366)
Right. Or with you and your clients and how they feel about their ability to reach out to you at a certain time or how long they think it'll take to hear back from you or the kind of energy you're going to bring to them. Like, that's all part of that. So when we've talked about vision, which is like the world that we want to be a part of creating, that is, as you said, aspirational. It's big. It's lofty. We've talked about like how you start to embody that for yourself and.
in your business, but how do you turn that into culture intentionally? Because you again, that intentionality piece is what's often lacking with culture inside of companies. As somebody who's worked in corporate America, it's like the culture happens because of the individual personalities and then how that starts to just create this belief system. And I've had that experience where you end up talking to the CEO or somebody up high about if you happen to get their ear and you're talking to them about like, well,
I know that we don't do this here or this is, know, we have a lot of meetings here or, you know, I know we're not supposed to leave early or whatever the things are. And they'll, they'll have that moment of like, well, wait a minute. That's not, that's not a, we don't say that here. That's not a thing, but that's become the lived experience for the people inside the company. And I'm going to guess that's that difference between intentionality and just allowing it to build on its own at the whim of the people inside of the company. So how do you take your vision?
and get intentional about how you create the culture that supports that vision.
Faith Clarke (06:59.51)
And just to your previous point, it's somebody's intentionality often. It might not have been yours, but it's, know, often leaders are in spaces where some other thing was created and you've inherited that. And so there is this need to shift that around. was talking to an Edie recently and she was like, yeah, the previous leader, you have to call the thing that's in the room. Too many of us are unwilling to name the elephants in the room. And she was like, yeah, the previous Edie,
da da da da da happened, and so people da da da da da. And so now that's true. And while we're envisioning all this beautiful stuff, she's like, well, we aren't acknowledging that people are sensibly responding to what the thing where they're living out is still the thing that was created by someone else. And shifting that can be difficult. think it might be easier to just use an example. So let's use your business.
Becky had just to play around with. What's a value that you have that you would want to see in the culture you're creating? Or maybe two values, so we have couple to play with.
Becky Mollenkamp (08:12.112)
Well, values, I think some of my core values are compassion and curiosity, and then liberation. like liberating ourselves from these, you know, these patriarchal white supremacist sort of systems. So any of those three are sort of the core values I think I tend to go with.
Faith Clarke (08:32.504)
So let's go with compassion and curiosity. What's compassion look like for you just in your day to day? When you say compassion, what do you mean?
Becky Mollenkamp (08:43.218)
Well, and here we go for people who listened to the last episode around leadership. I am no exception to the things I talk about. I'm no exception to exceptionalism because I accept myself out of this. I often think of compassion as meeting my clients where they are, listening, hearing them out, not judging, you know, being with them, honoring the truth of what they're bringing to the room, right? Helping them then honor those things for themselves. But
I do it well with others, but then not always for myself, right? Where I'm not always very compassionate with myself. I judge myself for not getting enough done, for not making enough money, for not helping enough people, whatever the thing is. So yeah, I tend to bring it externally.
Faith Clarke (09:26.978)
So compassion is this combination of like kindness and empathy and care, know, it's, yeah. And it seems to me just connecting it to curiosity, curiosity is like the gateway drug because if you can, curiosity opens you up to seeing what's really going on so that you can approach with kindness and care and empathy.
Becky Mollenkamp (09:31.706)
and empathy.
Becky Mollenkamp (09:44.231)
Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp (09:52.176)
Yeah, I always say that like if we if people were more curious, it becomes a lot harder to not be empathetic. Because once you get to know somebody asking them questions, finding out about them and their circumstances, it's then hard to have much judgment and anger and all of that.
Faith Clarke (10:06.2)
So if I'm going to choose a skill, one of the first things I ask people to do once we've imagined the vision and we know what the values are is what are the skills required to live out that value? And so curiosity is almost its own skill. And the skill of being curious in a moment, it requires the pause. So there's a micro skill there of this pause, this.
And there is a skill of noticing what your body feels like now, and then noticing that shift that wants to move you towards judgment or impatience, whatever it is, right? So there's a micro skill of noticing how your body is feeling. There's a micro skill, I'm going fast, but if I were with a-
Becky Mollenkamp (10:53.424)
Yeah, well, and I would say listening, listening to hear to, know, instead of just listening to respond, but listening to learn.
Faith Clarke (11:02.178)
And I would put the listening after, like you will listen well if you're curious. So there is a, how do I even approach this moment with curiosity? I need to be able to know what's going on internally. I need to know when I'm shifting into that place of judgment. I need to be able to pause that and regulate myself. then curiosity is I need to suspend.
Becky Mollenkamp (11:04.871)
Mm.
Mm.
Faith Clarke (11:29.446)
all the other things to ask what else could be going on right here. And so like what else is going on right there? So if I can map out all of the small skills needed just for curiosity as an example, then my next question is, so what are the skills needed? My next question is what are the touch points and opportunities that we have to practice these skills? How do we put this thing in everything that we're doing? So it's not just
Oh, I need curiosity when we have conflict or when we're making decisions. But how do I layer in the skill of curiosity for everything? So for example, I homeschooled and so I would be, you know, what is this? And I have artists. So what is this? And they're like, it's an orange. I'm like, what else is it? It's a round fruit. And like, what else is it? It's a, and just, I would ask a hundred questions and just see what else shows up.
And so I'm wondering, no, and if I were with a leader, so with you, I'd be like, where in your business could the skill, where could a practice, our own curiosity be used just for yourself and then in a conversation with another person? And how do you even structure that a little bit? Because habits, before they become habits, are just things that we do this and this and this and this. know, so is...
Curiosity, something that you can engage in in the start of every Zoom meeting, every single one. Look, we have a thing. I used to, when I was teaching in the classroom, I had seven minutes of curiosity because I so valued it. And I said, leave now, go outside for seven minutes. I'm setting a timer. Find three things that you're curious about, come back with three good questions. And students would leave and come back. And they'd come back with all kinds. There was nothing wrong. No bad question.
They were just like, so why does the supermarket across the street? I'm like, that's a great question versus the presumed answer. So I like, how do you, how do you build a ritual and a rhythm around the practice that you want people to have? And so I'll, I'll pause there and just kind of lean back and say that if we don't know what we want, what are the behaviors and emotions, the affective responses.
Becky Mollenkamp (13:32.838)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (13:51.094)
and the thoughts that need to be on repeat in people's minds and in people's interactions. If we don't know those and we can't answer the question, what kind of skills and practices do people need to have to make that easy? And then once we've answered that question, then is where are our touch points and how do we layer that in? So we're sitting together talking about website copy. And then like, how are we kind of pausing?
and doing some divergent thinking and being curious about other possibilities and how do we give some time to that like five, 10 minutes before we then converge on the most efficient thing. And how do we layer in? Is there anything else happening here? And then what about something else? And can we come up with 10 options for what could be happening here that I could feel really curious about and teach it as a habit?
Becky Mollenkamp (14:45.522)
Well, I was just gonna say that habit piece is what I'm getting that seems probably the most important and the most often lacking, where it's, we have these values, this vision, these things that we want inside of our business, but I think very often people are thinking about them only in those moments of crisis or conflict or challenge and kind of letting them go, letting it slide, not bringing it to the forefront of their mind.
and just the everyday thing, right? So like, we just have this meeting every Tuesday and it's more of this like, we just got to get it out of the way, where that's creating a very different kind of culture around meetings or around everyday habits than we actually want to bring into the space. And it's that mindful, because for anything in life to create a habit, you have to bring intention and mindfulness to it, or it doesn't become a habit, right? If you do something with intentionality at the same time every day after
a certain amount of time you start to realize you don't have to think about anymore. just happens. And that I think is what I'm hearing is what culture is. And so it's that habit formation. And as I talk to people all the time, it's it's most challenging to like to be able to do it when it's difficult. You need to be able to do it when it's not right, because when it's difficult, we won't be able to grab for that skill if we haven't mastered it when it's easy. Right. We're going to fall in difficult moments. We fall.
we tend to lean into the things that we know best, that come most easy for us. Because in that moment of crisis, that moment of challenge, we can't try something new. We have to go with something that we just know because our brain's already overloaded. So the important thing is to practice when it's easy, in the simple moment, in the time that you think, what's the point here? Do we really have to ask four questions before we start this simple meeting? And I'm saying that as somebody who's like, yeah, I get that because I feel that.
especially as a person of one where I think, do I really have to start each morning by asking myself four questions? Like, I just want to get on with the day, right? But then what is that doing in habit formation of actually creating this culture for myself in my business that really is curious? And I can see where it plays out, where there are times like I have this community I run and we we do brainstorming as a collective and we always start with clarifying questions.
Becky Mollenkamp (17:07.942)
And that is that curiosity. But that has been a habit I've had to create because I know in the beginning I just wanted to go right to advice giving mode. I'm like, let's just start giving the advice. But that goes against everything that I actually value. But it was because it was what I knew and what was easy. And until I started to intentionally, purposely start every call now with this thing, now it's easy. And everyone else knows it. There's that culture piece. Everyone else is like, we're doing the clarifying questions part first, right? Like, OK, I'm ready. But like, they know it. And it's because I created that.
but I had to do that with intention. So I just love that you mentioned the habit piece because I think that's the part that's often missing. And I wonder how much of that is because people don't actually know, like they haven't done that piece that you just did to say, are the six skills that I actually need to create habits around? Is it the lack of knowledge around the components that tends to lead to the lack of intentionality or is it just something else that's making them not intentionally practice the habit?
Faith Clarke (18:02.198)
It's never a lack of knowledge. It's never a lack of knowledge. It's always, I value something else that I'm not tracking and that I lead into that other thing. So for example, what you were saying there is basically, I've been taught to value efficiency and the fast way is the best way. so this asking questions that feel unnecessary is time-wasting. And so what I wanted to say was that culture is also about how we make meaning.
Becky Mollenkamp (18:04.156)
Mm.
Faith Clarke (18:32.352)
And so it's designing, meaning making. So instead of thinking, asking these questions I feel unnecessary is a time waster. It's, whoa, this is, get to practice curiosity. I get to see more. I get to not be reductive. These supremacist systems are reductive as all hell. How do I get to see more broadly in three dimensions?
it's to get more information and I get this more information by being curious and by asking more questions. So when I make meaning in different ways and when I teach this meaning making, it's a different student on a Montessori approach in schools and say some other, like kids are just playing all day. no, we've made meaning about play in some different way and so this is what we do around here. And so as we build these skills and put them on habit, part of the way that we're going to be able to make this habit stick.
is because we're going to reteach our own meaning making because there is a value under here that's driving our behavior. And we have to kind of see it, understand it and then put, know, habitually put, I do value my hydration more than efficiency.
Becky Mollenkamp (19:47.014)
Well, it's interesting you say, value efficiency because I have to sit with that, right? And be like, it feels confrontational in a way of like, but no, I don't. That's not what I value. And yet our actions speak a lot to what we value. Right. And so that can be, but I imagine that's a hard part of this for a lot of people is having to confront what we aspire to value. Going back to some of what we talked about, this aspirational vision versus what our actions are actually showing.
we value. So I don't want to value efficiency over all other things. And yet my actions often show that I do. I am allowing that value that's been given to me to show up. And so that means I do value it. And if I want to intentionally shift that, then I have to know what my actions are showing about what I actually value. Right. That I imagine that can be really hard for people because often what we're actually like, what are
Faith Clarke (20:40.494)
soon.
Becky Mollenkamp (20:46.052)
actions are showing are not the thing that we want to believe we value. And that disconnect can be really hard to wrap your brain around, I would imagine, for a lot of people.
Faith Clarke (20:59.47)
What I've found is that people are, just that same exception clause that we apply to ourselves in so many ways, people are really good at this for other people, right? So I tend to do it for the community, for the workplace, for the, they can tell me what workers value based on what workers do, not based on what workers say. So it's easy to flip it back on them because,
what you're doing here is what tells me what you actually value. And so I just offer it back because it's not an uncommon, like it's a skill they already have. They're just not applying it to themselves. And for those of us who want to change something, we have to really be willing in any area of the like, I have to, I pride myself in being a healthy eater.
And I don't drink the damn water, Becky, right? And so as I, my kids drink water because I've so drilled it in. And yet I, so, so there is something there for me and anybody who has been honest enough to say, I want to change something about myself. I say, I'm not going to do it. And yet I do it. So if I'm, you know, I'm going to use my guilty pleasure of eating something very sweet, clearly.
I value the maybe the addictive experience of sugar over my health values, right? It must be.
Becky Mollenkamp (22:36.242)
Or could you value pleasure? Just to reframe that slightly for you in a way that feels a little more affirming,
Faith Clarke (22:43.678)
No, because I I don't, I do value pleasure, but I don't, I find it's a very short term pleasure, very brief. And that causes me to want to eat more sugar. So there, like even our hesitation to call it what it is when it sounds bad is part of the thing, right? There is a sugar addiction, clearly, that is more valuable in terms of feeding that. I, and I value the,
Becky Mollenkamp (22:47.89)
But you don't find pleasure in the sugar.
Mmm. Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (23:13.946)
I don't, there's something about the discomfort and maybe even there's something about saying, I want to do what I want to do and right now this is what I want to do. And I'm a grown up cause that's part of it for me. And I can just do what I want to do over, you know, whatever it is that I have put down as my health values. think that just back to culture, the brutal honesty, the kind of eyes wide open with ourselves to then say, wow,
I value this and that, and then to ask for the help. How do I bridge it? I honestly value this. How do I do this bridging? I need help because often in our businesses, we are prescribing help. That's not helpful because we haven't been honest. So we think, it's a Slack channel that we need. We'll put reminders in so that we can offer appreciations to each other. When honestly deep down, I am not modeling appreciation in any of my micro interactions.
because there's something else that I value. I might think that people will think I'm soft when I, you know, be gushy with them. And I, know, so there is a brutal honesty that I think, and I don't even want to call it brutal, because that's, that's even unnecessarily harsh, but there is a eyes wide open honesty that we need to be able to build culture intentionally the way we want. And I think also just as a last comment,
that it's just to be aware that old systems, generational old systems, you know, as when I say trauma is in the bones, mean, gifts are in the bones too, but trauma is in the bones. And so we will need to be willing, especially again, those of us who have, who have experienced, everybody has experienced the harm from these systems, but those of us who the system was designed to harm, multiple marginalized identities.
that when we are trying to create something different, we're also going to have to confront how uncomfortable it is, how much healing we need to be able to do it easily because your wise self is going to be saying, hey, hey, hey, hold lion. There's a lion coming your way and you're going to be like, yes, this is re, you know.
Becky Mollenkamp (25:27.783)
Right.
Faith Clarke (25:32.172)
and confront the fear and that's why I back to community. We keep coming back to that point that we do need each other holding each other's hands and just saying, all right, you're in the middle here. No, we have you covered. It does feel absolutely scary because it is, but we're holding you right now while you make this change and live out this discomfort while you're making this change.
Becky Mollenkamp (25:53.682)
Well, right, and I was going to say that as well because most of like it is possible to be eyes wide open by yourself and with yourself. But for most of us, that's really challenging. It's really challenging to be able to see and confront these like not harsh realities, but just these things that you maybe don't want to believe about yourself or don't want to be true and that maybe confront the vision that you have of yourself. Right. Because
Identity, our personal identity is so important. And when anything challenges who we believe ourselves to be or who we want ourselves to be, that can create this sort of like existential identity crisis. And those are really hard. And what will often shut us down because that feels like the lion, right? It feels like the lion coming at me of like, wait a minute, I'm not inherently just a giving person or whatever the thing is for you. Like that can feel like the lion attacking you and you have to, will, your natural like,
biological reaction is to shut that down because you don't want to have to confront that because it is too big and too scary. And that is where being in community that feels safe and caring and loving and that you can trust and that's doing the work to to say for them to be able to reflect something back, it can feel very different. Like for you to say in a way that doesn't feel laced with judgment or anything, because it's just a here's a reflection of what I see. You value efficiency. And it's like,
Those actions do show a value of efficiency. And for me to be able to say, OK, that's just a thing that she's observed and a thing that we see. But it doesn't mean I'm a bad person. It doesn't mean I'm wrong. It just means, this is the reality that I wasn't able to kind of confront for myself. And now with that knowledge, what can I do? And so that's where I think having community that you can do this work inside of is just so important. And with culture making, as much as it is a communal effort,
There is some top down stuff that happens where people are often looking to the person who is seen as the leader in the space, the person who owns the business, the person who's running the meeting, the whatever it is to say, is the culture we're creating here? And I've seen that, as I mentioned in this community I run. And it's also interesting to see how quickly it can begin to shift, right? Because the culture is really beginning to shift inside this community I run that's now over a year and a half old.
Becky Mollenkamp (28:15.706)
And it has only taken a few months of real intentionality to begin to see those shifts, but it needed to start with me because I was the person in the room that was running the space. So having that community that can help you do that, I think is valuable. And again, at the end of this series that we're doing, we're going to talk to you about a community space where you can do this work with others, for yourself, for your business, for your team in a place that will feel, we hope, give you that kind of safety to do this eyes wide open. I love that term.
exploration as you go about intentionally creating culture. anything else on culture that you want to make sure we talk about?
Faith Clarke (28:52.375)
And I think.
The fundamental thing that I've seen in every place that people want to design more restorative cultures is that trust is the foundation. Trust is the blood and the bone and the guardrails and the life flow. so our trust has been violated in so many spaces and will be violated in this space as well.
And so just knowing that that's essential, we're not gonna be able to mirror each other well, we're not gonna be able to live out these values in the ways we want if we're not also kind of doing trust building and trust repair all the time. And so how in our workplaces, especially the traditional workspaces we've been in, nobody cared about our trust. Maybe stakeholders trust or some funders trust or.
But we, as the people who are working in the building, know nobody cared about our trust. And so as leaders, we want to be designing cultures where we say, I trust you. I want you to trust me. I'm willing to kind of infuse our togetherness with trust building and trust repair all the time. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (30:18.096)
Yeah, I think everyone can probably anyone who's worked in corporate America anyway, can feel that in their bones of like the the myriad ways that your trust was broken again and again. And knowing that that you're working with other people again, whether you're a solopreneur working with, you know, contractors or community and clients or your have a team, all of us are working with other people who've had their trust shattered again and again and again.
And so we have to also bring that awareness into the culture creation and knowing that while I say it can change quickly, it doesn't change overnight. It takes concerted effort. It takes probably a lot of difficulty, I would imagine too, where sometimes there's a disappointment you have to confront of like, aren't they, like, why isn't it shifting as fast as I might want? Efficiency minded me things about. So having that community support is really important.
We will be telling you about that offer soon. Keep listening. I hope these episodes are helping you think about your business in a new way. Thank you again, for doing them with me. And we'll be back next time. think we're going to talk about systems. And then also the other component you brought up a little bit here, which is that discomfort, right? It's woven through all of these discussions. We'll be talking about that too. So we'll be back soon to share more. Thanks, Faith.
Faith Clarke (31:35.892)
It's okay.