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The Public Sector Executive Podcast is the new podcast bringing you closer to the public sector leaders in the UK. Covering everything from the environment to the economy to transport, our podcast will bring you the latest news, views and insight from the people responsible for shaping the country's future.
Regardless of who the government of the day is. That's always my first key message to any change in personalities within Whitehall, but more importantly, a change of government over, the time I've been chairman. Dan, we've had a. We've had a good relationship with government, but actually we've seen external pressures outside of the uk government's control, which has either slow programmes and activities, or cause activities to be caused because other areas have taken that attention. We all accept we've got to move from the centre and we've got to allow those who are best place at the lowest level of government to deliver that. We all accept we've got to move from the centre and we've got to allow those who are best placed at the lowest level of, government to deliver that.
This is the public sector executive podcast, bringing you views, insight and conversation from leaders across the public sector, presented by Dan Benn.
Sometime has now passed since the results of the 2024 general election were announced. The first Labour government since 2010 has already begun getting on with some of the things that it wants to do and some of its main priorities have already started being acted upon. To discuss the election results and what it might mean for local government, I am joined by councillor Sam, Chapman Allen, chair of the district council's network. So, Sam, welcome to the podcast. Those election results, the new Labour government, and how those results actually impact councils across the country, how do you see that panning out?
Yeah, thanks, Dan, for having me. So, I think from my perspective as chair of the district council's network, representing my 169 members, but also locally back at the ranch, and now having a Labour and conservative MP under Labour government is actually, our message is really clear. We're here to work in collaboration with government and regardless of what colour that government is, this is all about partnership and it's not a centrist type approach. And we need to make sure, quite early on, with all the secretary of states and new ministers across Whitehall, they see the benefit of working with local government really early on to get some of their key objectives and some of their key missions delivered in a timely manner. We've got the emerging budget position at the end of this calendar year. We'll begin to see that emerge with civil servants race in between, MHCLG, as it's been referred to, back to the future now, and treasury. So we've got to make sure that we don't lose any traction. And for many within the new government, actually there's a lot of new shire members of parliament. So actually they're brand new to politics, they're brand new to Westminster and they're brand new to two tier areas. So, actually, we've got to make sure that all of my local council leaders across the country are engaging really proactively with their MP's. To say, actually, this is what councils do. This is the important, vital role. It's not just around adults and potholes and planning and bins. Actually, it's so much more than that. It's around generating and driving that vision of place and making sure that members of parliament are involved in that, because we've all got a responsibility as community leaders and then making sure that the new, ministers, and secretary of states understand that actually, we're that enabling arm. We want to do it in partnership. We're not the delivery arm of them. It has to be that partnership approach. So regardless of who the government of the day is, that's always my first key message to any change in personalities within Whitehall, but more importantly, a change of government.
I think the one thing I want to touch on there, you speak about the partnership between local and central government. One thing that we have already seen, whilst the government has gone with trying to achieve a lot of its priorities already, one thing that we definitely saw early on, was the chancellor outlining her, plans for economic growth and planning and that kind of thing. So Angela Rayner is now heading up the Ministry for Housing Communities and Local Government, as opposed to the department for levelling up housing and Communities. With levelling up being taken out of the title as a moniker, how do you think sector goals such as levelling up and that kind of thing will be impacted by this shift from conservative to Labour?
I think, part one, I am pleased that local government has gone back into the departmental name. I think that's a really important part because it shows in my opening bit around that partnership approach between local government and Westminster and Whitehall in relation to the removal of Lebanon. But actually, I think it's reinforced with civil servants that actually, when you remove that from the centre and devolve that to, administrations, whether that's local, councils or combined authorities, that actually we can level up at pace. So as much as the brand of levelling up has been possibly removed from a departmental position, actually, I think, and I believe that hopefully it's given confidence to the civil servants and in turn, the new ministers and the secretary of state, that actually, we know how to level up. We just have never branded it before. And actually, it's part of our BAU, our business as usual. But you now need to make sure you give us those tools to make continue that across the country. And I think one of the challenges has been, as we move forward, level up, is that it had that competitive process and you've probably heard through the general election campaign and some of those statements around that bid in process. It's going to be really interesting to see how our early conversations are emerging away from that bidding process and more direct target intervention around those areas which need direct intervention levelling up and where actually we can remove that wider pop position and divvy that up across all parts of local government so that everyone has the ability, because what we may find if we continuously do direct intervention or a bidding process is that certain areas will then accelerate really far ahead and there's other areas we get left behind. So we need to make sure we keep moving everyone forward at a steady pace whilst we're doing some targeted intervention through that process as well. But I think levelling up has proven that actually local government is able to do it at pace, at size and at scale. We've got the statutory leaves to be able to do that. We just needed the funding from government to move to us so we could achieve that.
With that in mind, do you think that, especially with the meeting that the prime minister had with the metro mayors this week, the, week of recording anyway, do you think that by having that vision for local leaders being the ones that can drive this change locally, that will philtre down a lot more to less? So the combined authorities m more towards the district councils and the county councils.
So I've got so much respect for our, mayors across the country, whether it's Ben or Andy or anybody else, but actually they work across a recognised economic geography and actually you see that sort of size, size and scale, and they're delivering that pace, that devolved money, as you said earlier, on the previous piece, once you devolve that money in a steady pipeline of activity, actually you begin to see your ambition and deliver a really strong vision. But actually, I think through where we are, whether it's the towns fund, the high Streets fund, the long term towns programme, and levelling up pots themselves. Actually, once that's come forward, councils of all sizes and shapes, but particularly my district and unitary members, are able to get a real bang for their buck. They were able to align that to their vision, their strategic activity, converge those statutory levers around housing planning, ECDev, whatever it may be, to make sure we're moving that forward. So my message back to the prime minister and the deputy prime minister is, I'm pleased you met with those, mayors across the country, but actually, don't forget about those local government leaders, particularly my members, who are doing this every single day as well at a hyper local level and actually seeing some really positive outcomes at a size and scale which is comparable to, mayoral combined authorities and I would say sometimes even at a quicker pace.
So to move on to another major talking point around local government finances have been a massive thing, a, massive talking point for a long time now. it can't be understated how sometimes precarious local government finances are looking. Do you see the new government working to improve the way that councils are funded and that kind of thing? And if so, how do you think they could go about doing that?
So this is a message which is, regarded for every government whenever they come in and whether they're in power of any political colour, flavour that the challenge is, you can't give out money you haven't got and that's the challenge of where Whitehall has been. But for us, from district's perspective, we've seen a 50%, real term cut since 2015. That's made a real challenge for how we deliver those services, which 100% of our residents value. So our message and we accept that we can't go continuously without begging, bowl back into government to say, you need to give us more money. And I think from a DCM perspective, we've been clear with our members, districts and unitaries that actually give us those freedoms and flexibilities for local sovereign leaders to decide, actually, is it appropriate that I increase council tax? Is it appropriate that I do 100% cost recovery on some of those services I provide, whether it's planning or, licence and whatever it may be. And actually do we need to begin to have a grown up conversation again around some of the guidance from sit for another? Actually, those guidance and principles and practises have made it quite difficult for us to try and become sustainable. I accept that some councils, have possibly overstretched themselves with their commercial activity, but in other areas, that's a really important income, stream for them, for their baseline budget. So where can we learn from those success stories as we move forward? But where we are today, the pressures we're seeing, particularly around temporary accommodation and homelessness, have expediated, since the pandemic, predominantly, but expediated at a pace where we just can't keep pace of that with our current constraints of what we get from government through our annual settlement, but more importantly, what we can raise locally at council tax, and fees and charges and, income generation from commercial assets. So I think we do need to have a really grown up conversation. Either government gives us an increase in our settlement and extends that to a longer period of time to give us some certainty. It is a bit bizarre that by December, most councils have to go out to consult with our communities around our emerging budget and we don't get that final confirmation of what the government position is going to look like till the early part of the following calendar year. But in turn, actually, where are those abilities for us to think differently about how we deal with those big challenges? We said earlier that colleagues across other areas have got that, direct intervention around potholes or adults and children social care. Actually, where can we think about a different position around capital and revenue from government, particularly around those areas where we're seeing that bigger challenge for temporary accommodation and homelessness? We accept we need to build more homes to deal with that, but actually there's a bit more of a nuance around that. We need to make sure we've got a different type of portfolio being offered around private, rented, affordable starter homes, everything else like that. Because if we go for a one size fits all, I don't think we're going to overcome that challenge on ta itself. So those early conversations, said earlier with civil servants and those new ministers and secretary of states, is freedoms and flexibilities, that long term financial position, and to acknowledge that there are certain areas where we are seeing inflated pressures which we hadn't seen previously, to kind of follow.
On from that and, to build on some of the things that might be required to generally just improve local, government. What would you, as chair of the district council's network, wish for from the government over the course of the next five years? But also, how would you want it to look by the time that five years is up?
So for me, it's over the time I've been chairman. Dan, we've had a good relationship with government, but actually we've seen external pressures outside of the uk government's control, which has either slow programmes and activities or cause activities to be paused because, the other areas have taken that attention. But actually we need a grown up conversation around certain areas such as, asylum and immigration. So we absolutely will ensure that those individuals who come to England are provided safe, appropriate homes and housing. But actually delivering that through, a, third provider isn't appropriate. We shouldn't have companies delivering and providing those homes. We should make sure local districts and unitary councils, the housing authority, is doing that. So I think we need a grown up conversation early on around how we can work in partnership with government, both the Home Office and MHCLG around that. I think the second part is around our finances and making sure that actually we have a really robust conversation, understanding where their appetite is to support local government, on the day to day expenditure. But where is our appetite to support, as we said earlier, some of those big intervention pieces around regeneration levelling up, which has seen such successes thus far, because we need to make sure that we are working in partnership and making sure that government understand we're delivering that with them, not for them. The third part is to understand that actually housing is the basic of everything we need to achieve. If we deliver good, affordable housing in the right place with community support, we'll begin to see that economy grow. And actually I think we can lift everyone's aspirations accordingly. So there isn't a golden bullet to achieve that. We need to make sure we're working with the department, but also with, the sector itself around what are the challenges they're facing and how can we make sure that we're not making it so difficult that they can't build homes, but in turn making sure that our communities understand we have a housing issue and we need to make sure that you're helping us find those solutions. And we've got some fantastic examples across the country where that's been achieved in some areas where it's a bit of a challenge. so I think there would be my three immediates to government and actually in five years time, if they stepped out in which we had a good financial agreement in a respectful, positive manner, which had some longevity around that, I think that's a positive. I think if we change the behaviours and attitudes around getting third sector providers to deliver some of those challenges which we should be, I believe, delivering around housing for asylum, and immigration, and thirdly, just making sure that we're having that grown up conversation around homes, housing planning and ensuring that actually everyone understands that's intrinsically linked to growth and economic success.
You mentioned, the c word just towards the end of that, then, which is challenges. And, I want to just kind of touch on that a little bit more over the next five years or in the next five years. What kind of challenges do you think the government might run into when it comes to dealing with local government, whether that's dealing with the people at the top of local government or whether that's like you say, funding local government, what kind of challenges could exist?
I think initially it's beginning to understand. So there's a lot of shire two tier area MP's now, and actually they will come over time building that really respectful, trustful relationship with their local district and unitary leaders, what those services and what those needs are and what they need them to do back into Westminster. But I think as you move forward it's understand that actually we've got to get the basics right. Once you get the basics right around what your community, your residents and your businesses expect, it gives you licence to do some other type of stuff. and therefore I think we've got to make sure we get those basics right. As we said earlier around housing, and homelessness, around planning, around that financial modelling of how we operate. I think one of the challenges they're going to face, which I know hasn't always been well received from the previous government, was around devolution. We all accept we've got to move from the centre, and we've got to allow those who are best placed at the lowest level of government to deliver that in conjunction with government. And actually for me it feels really bizarre that through the devolution position of the previous Lebanon bill that district councils can't be constituent members of those bodies where district councils are the housing authority, they're the planning authority, they've got a really vital role to play. So if we go back to the chancellor's statement, Rachel Reaves, around the economy is linked to housing. Therefore to get successive devolution you need to make sure that those housing authorities, those planning authorities are sat round the table. And so one of my asks, and I know that the shadow front bench as it was then, was actually in favour of making sure that district councils were constituent members of devolution. But I think that'll be one of their big challenges. They begin to grapple and acknowledging that actually if you look at other areas such as London and Manchester and the Midlands, what is an appropriate size and scale for devolution to be able to deliver that beyond that of a single Shire county? Do you look at two shire counties together? How does that then look from an economic geography perspective? How does that look from a transport perspective, an infrastructure perspective, a utilities perspective? All of those things begin to come together when you begin to look at a different size and scale of delivery. So I think devolution is going to be one of the big challenges they face. I think housing as well, and we can't step away from that. I'm pleased that districts and unitary members across the council have got a really good track record of delivering and approving housing applications, plan applications within localities. But we've got to make sure that there's not a knee jerk reaction. And quite rightly people get spooked and concerned about planning, particularly when it happens near them. So we've still got to make sure that this is bottom up approach that we're working with our communities to explain what is the housing need for them, for their children, their grandchildren or even their friends and family's children and grandchildren if they don't have children or grandchildren of their own. And once we begin to explain that need and the challenge actually I think we can begin to get some better buy in from our community. So I would hate for unintentional consequences of the centre saying you need to build more homes. We absolutely do need to build more homes and we accept that. We've got 110,000 homes stuck in the pipeline at the moment for numerous reasons. nutrient neutrality is one of those. So actually how can we ensure that we are unlocking that piece there of stool growth whilst ensuring that communities from a bottom up approach are delivering in those. So I think they're sort of, they're the three areas where government will possibly find it a little bit stodgy to work through over these next couple of years. But as I said actually we need to make sure that early on we're doing this in partnership. If you do it in partnership, actually everyone has that risk and reward type position. Everyone's really honest around those red lines are what we're trying to achieve. And I think actually we can all do that together to deliver what we need to do for our residents and businesses.
So you touched on planning then? and we saw Chancellor Rachel Reeves talking very early on, as she outlined her kind of economic measures and kind of her plans for the country about major infrastructure projects and the planning decisions for those being taken away and being made by central government more. How do you see that going with local government? And do you think there's benefit or negatives to that?
I think there are pros and cons for the infrastructure requirements themselves. But I think for me you create a democratic deficit and local, government is elected to make sure that actually they're delivering a really hyper local plan and strategy and vision for their place. And therefore actually if we begin to talk around devolution if there is a need for big infrastructure programmes and projects, whatever it is, actually need to make sure we're having those really early on. And back to if you have all those constituent members around the table of those new devolved bodies or even boards, if devolvement doesn't occur early on, you can I think get the best outcome. Now stand fast. That there will always be times where there'll be local friction because they may not necessarily see the benefit realisation at a local level if you have a big new power station or a water treatment plant or a connectivity railroad through your locality. But actually how do we work with the communities to understand if that is going to occur? How can we make this the best possible solution? And I think it will come down to local leadership around some of that. but we've seen before Dan, where actually decisions have been taken away and that already occurs now on some infrastructure programmes and projects already. but I think it wouldn't be appropriate for that to become the norm. And I think actually we should encourage where possible that actually all those decisions are taken locally, collectively to get the best outcome. But we need to understand that actually infrastructure investment is really important across the whole country. and therefore I think early on we need to make sure that the Whitehall departments, the centre as we refer to it as is sharing with local governments either at a local level for districts and unitaries, or where those devolved powers and bodies are being established, that district and unitary members, sorry, district members are part of that. So that actually we can get the best possible outcome at the best possible speed, of pace and to ensure that our residents and our communities understand and have the ability to shape what that looks like. And in turn quite rightly because it's democracy, have the ability to reject that if they don't wish to.
Spot on. So the final thing that I want to ask is a little bit of a twist on the question you asked before about the challenges that the government might have. What kind of challenges do you think councils might encounter when dealing with this new government, if any?
So it's, and this is I think in turn some of the fantastic historical value of a really strong civil service and a government type structure. That transition is virtually seamless. That once the election is announced and the king has asked the leader of a party to form a government in his name, that actually that transition happens immediately. The nice thing is that beforehand if there is a ah, shadow ah, opposition, they begin to do those handover takeover and begin to work with the permanent secretaries and all those Whitehall departments to begin to think, actually, if we do come into power, what type of things we are going to do. So actually, those macerations of change and direction have already commenced some work. So it's not a complete shock. but I think it's back to what we said earlier. We've got to make sure that this is complete partnership. These are, new to the department. They've inherited 14 years of a singular coalition and then a singular government. And actually they need to, over these couple of weeks, just work out what is the short, medium and long term plans they want to do. And quite rightly, they're going to want to get some quick wins and some of those things are going to then be those longer burns. But it's making sure that actually we're having those respectful, trusted conversations at a national level and Angela and her team are, having with myself and others from the county council's network and London councils and Sigma and others to begin to. Actually, where is that appetite? Where is that ability to go? No, that's no issues there. Or actually we need to work through this in a bit more detail. And like any partnership, it's got to work on trust and they don't know us and we don't know them. but that will come quite quickly, I think, over these couple of weeks because it's got to. Because actually we're all here for our communities. That's why we all get elected, to improve the lives for our residents. so we've got to make sure that regardless political colours, that actually we're moving ahead in that partnership approach. and by the time we get to the sort of latter part of this year, actually, I'm hopeful that some of our asks but also some of the solutions which we've got as a district council's network are beginning to be seen in some of their statements and some of their positions and some of their direction of travel.
Thank you very much for joining me, Sam. really, really insightful discussion there. I think there's a lot we can take from that, but I think the overriding message is that there needs to be a grown up conversation between local and central government to make sure that everyone's on the same page. And like you said, partnership.
This is all about partnership. They've got their vision, we've got ours, and we need to make sure that we're using those best bodies, whether they're local government, whether they're civil servants, secretary of state's, ministers, local government officers to drive that forward at pace for our residents and businesses.
Thank you very much for joining me.
Thanks.
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