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Listen to Prisons Inside/Out, a podcast from Correctional Service Canada. Follow along as we take you beyond the walls of our institutions, highlighting the important work we do to protect Canadians and change lives every day.
Kirstan: In 2023, women accounted for 51% of CSC's total workforce. While that number is normal in today's working world, at the dawn of CSC in the late 1970s, that number would have been harder to imagine. Though women have been centrally involved in Canadian corrections since its inception, limited roles in the workplace created several challenges for aspiring women pursuing a career. Over time, and through the efforts of countless dedicated employees, more and more women began entering the correctional workforce.
Kirstan: Today, CSC is home to almost 11,500 women, and through their dedication, they've helped shape the world leading correctional system we know today.
Kirstan: On this episode of Prisons Inside Out, we wanted to shine light on the stories of two very special leaders at CSC. I'm your host, Kirstan Gagnon. Welcome to this episode of Prisons Inside Out. To begin, we sit down with Kathy Neill, CSC's first ever Deputy Commissioner for Indigenous Corrections, to talk about her journey with CSC. So I was wondering, how long have you been here at CSC?
Kathy: So I've been at CSC since September of 96. So just over 27 years.
Kirstan: Wonderful. So tell me a bit about yourself and your experience.
Kathy: I started as a casual correctional worker, so we still had casuals at that time. And I left a full time job as a as a guidance counselor for teen pregnancy to take a casual. And then, probably for the first year, my mom used to put in advertisements for other employment because she was not excited about me working at the Pen. After about a year, she stopped doing that and and recognizing, you know what? Not not such a bad thing.
Kathy: And, was supportive. And at this point, I actually have two sisters who actually work at the Pen as well. One is an indigenous liaison officer and the other is an indigenous program officer.
Kirstan: Wonderful. And now you're our first ever deputy commissioner for indigenous corrections. How does that feel?
Kathy: You know what? It's it feels great. And, the national scope, is very, it's very different. I actually find it very meaningful. And I get to learn something new every day because there's different, activities that go around across the country, and, and every region has a bit of a different flavor. So I really am enjoying the position.
Kirstan: Tell me about the first time you set foot in a prison. How did that feel? What was your reaction?
Kathy: So the first time I set foot in a prison, you know what? I'm not sure I had a really big reaction. I actually grew up a block away from the prison. So the prison goes to the end of town, and then we were at the end of that block. And so...
Kirstan: Is this Sask Pen?
Kathy: Yeah. Saskatchewan penitentiary. And and, I mean, I think I've done probably 20, 18, 20 years of my service at Saskatchewan Penitentiary. Very much a, you know what an old institution. But you know what? I have fond memories of working there, very collegial. And, and really bumped around from security to interventions to management services, worked in CORCAN, worked in human resources, worked in health care at the region.
Kirstan: You worked in structured intervention units as well?
Kathy: And then. Yeah, I led the implementation of the structured intervention unit.
Kirstan: So you've done it all.
Kathy: You know what? I think that is part of what has helped me maintain my resilience, and that constant learning and change and, and as much as change is difficult, I actually quite enjoy it because it gives you that opportunity to create. And so again, coming into this position, being the first deputy commissioner, I actually get to create again. Yeah and so really find it, revitalizing to be able to, you know, forge that path.
Kirstan: So one of the things I found super fascinating was that you told me you were a correctional officer at one point in your career as well, in addition to all those other things you've done. So what was that like?
Kathy: You know what? I mean, it can be a challenging job. Absolutely. I was very aware that coming in. I mean, I'm I'm five feet tall, very aware that my presence isn't going to make an impact in terms of behavior and that I need to talk things through. And so, you know, very much focused on those communication skills. You build bonds with your peers, like no other. And so there are still people that I actually went to correctional training program with, that I still stay in touch with.
Kathy: And those initial years that you really are feeling out, you know, identifying, who's a mentor, who do you who's modeling behavior that you want? Who's that support person if you need to talk to somebody? You need to define yourself in terms of an officer to make sure that you know what you work in a way that you are garnering respect from both the inmates and from your peers. And so a couple pieces of adv ice I got very early on, said, you know, for the first six months, just listen and learn.
Kathy: Listen and learn. And then another piece was: "Mean what you say, and say what you mean." So if you say you're going to do something, do it. Follow through. Be clear. You know, all of those things that when you say them out loud, they think, they're common sense, right? But it really is again, about that "Mean what you say and say what you mean." And model behavior that you would like to see.
Kirstan: Mhm.
Kirstan: When you talk about challenging environments, corrections, you work with some of the most vulnerable individuals, that are incarcerated and at a time in their life where they might be going through a lot of challenges. How do you, in these different positions of leadership, encourage or leave a mark on them so that they change for the better?
Kathy: I think you start by recognizing that they're all human and and let's not forget that they have a mother. They're somebody's son, they're somebody's daughter, they're somebody husband, they're somebody's loved one. And that you start from that core base and and you know what? You might not be dealing with them when they're at their best, but be prepared to listen. And you know what? It might be: "I'm going to come back when you calm down." It might be: "You know what? I'll take you out and we'll have a conversation."
Kathy: It it might be: "I've got 15 things that are demanding my time right now, but I have to take time for this." And so it's to be able to make those judgment calls in terms of, of how you manage it. And at the end of the day, never forget that they're people.
Kirstan: In terms of women at CSC, now CSC's at 50% to approximately 50% women compared to men. So half. But it wasn't always like that. When you started out 27 years ago, what was it like? What's the difference now?
Kathy: I have a pretty thick skin and always have. And grew again, grew up with a lot of peers that were also correctional officers. And so coming in, I felt fairly comfortable and I and I and I mean, I'm I'm lucky to be able to say that. And I'm, I'm pretty outspoken. And so I think that quality helped me to be able to find my place and, and to be able to, challenge appropriately.
Kirstan: Mhm.
Kirstan: So you always had a seat at the table.
Kathy: You know what? I didn't necessarily always have a seat at the table, but a seat at the table wasn't necessarily my goal. Right? I was able to find my niche and I had good support from peers and I had some fabulous mentors. You know, who role modeled behavior. Who, you know what, provided me a safe space to speak up if I disagreed with someone, allowed me to consider other perceptions, and then go from there.
Kirstan: And, in terms of, I want us to talk a bit about Indigenous culture because it plays such a big role in In Corrections now. Was it always like that and why is it so important?
Kathy: You know what? I believe that from the time I've started, there has been a focus on indigenous corrections. And I mean, I think it's so important because of the population that we serve and quite frankly, because of the socioeconomics in terms of indigeneity and indigenous people in the community and trying to, you know, break those cycles, whether it be a cycle of poverty or abuse or addictions.
Kathy: I think that's why it is so important. The fact that we've been working on it for at least 27 years, I think we've we've grown. We still have a lot of work to do. I think it's hard work because, you know, we educate, we educate, we educate. And then in three years everybody moves on and you need to educate again. And so it's that continuous. And you know what, we assume people understand.
Kathy: And and and you know what, I think people even think they understand. But when you ask somebody, okay, what's the impact of a sun dance ceremony? What's the impact of counseling with elders? What do you think they're working on when they're a helper in a sweat lodge? I'm not sure people understand that. And I'm not sure that we've given them the context to be able to understand it. And so. That's one of the areas I'm hoping to be able to increase in terms of that.
Kirstan: Well that's wonderful. Is there anything else you'd like to share with Canadians about the work you do and the journey you've had?
Kathy: You know what? I would say that it's been, a very rewarding career. I would really recommend people to work at CSC. I think it's all about the people, and it's about the people we serve, as well as the people we work with. It's never boring. And after 27 years, I'm still learning something new every single day.
Kirstan: That's wonderful. Well, thank you very much, Kathy, for spending some time with me today. I really appreciate it.
Kathy: Thanks, Kirstan.
Kirstan: Great.
Kirstan: The next guest on the episode began her career with CSC in 1983. Over the years, she has held a variety of positions in institutions, in the community and at national headquarters. Welcome to the podcast, Commissioner Kelly. So let's start at the beginning. Can you tell us a bit about your first job at CSC?
Commissioner Kelly : Well, first of all, thank you for having me on your podcast. So my very first job at CSC was case management officer. That's what it was called at the time. But now it's called parole officer. And I started on October 3rd, 1983.
Kirstan: Wow.
Kirstan: Amazing. Such a long time to be at corrections. And, being a woman in the field of corrections. Can you tell me a bit about your first day? And later on, I want to hear more about how things may have changed.
Commissioner Kelly: So, yes, I remember my first day well. First of all, I was in university, had come out of university, and, the first thing I was told is you'll probably need a car because I was going to start my first job at Collins Bay institution. And I still remember that first day parking my car. And then it's quite a long walk from the parking lot to the front entrance of the institution. And when it's windy, it's quite cold.
Commissioner Kelly: And I remember that. And I remember arriving at the institution and, they assigned me an office, and the first thing they gave me was the huge case management manual. And the other thing is, I was assigned a bit of a mentor, and he was absolutely excellent. So if I had any questions, I could go to to that person. And he really helped me. And I believe that working as a case management officer now, parole officer, I did it for five years, really, provided a very, very solid and strong foundation to the work I did subsequently.
Kirstan: Wonderful. And when you talk about this big manual, is that because you couldn't go online and get this stuff at your fingertips?
Commissioner Kelly: So when I first started in 1983, there were no computers. So you can well imagine, first of all, all reports as a case management officer were written by hand. And then we put the report in a, there was a typing pool. So there were typists that would type your report, you would get it back, you would quality control it, and then it would go to your supervisor and anything you wanted to write, let's say you had to, correspond with another institution.
Commissioner Kelly: You actually wrote,h andwrote a memo and you put it in an envelope, and then it went through the mail and made its way, and then you waited for a response. So very, very different in those days.
Kirstan: Great. And so fast forward 40 years. You're in your 41st year, this year. How have things changed? Can you give us the top three things that come to mind when you think about how we've evolved and where you've taken the organization as well? We're at almost over half our women now at CSC, which is amazing. And so many on our executive committee are women. What what kind of marks you in this evolution?
Commissioner Kelly: The the one thing for me, when I started, first of all, Ole Ingstrup was the commissioner that introduced the mission. And the mission is still obviously with us today. It's about custody but also assisting the offenders to become law abiding citizens. So, but, things have changed in terms of the diversity in our workforce and the fact that there's, so many women now both in the correctional officer ranks, but also, I believe, even in the parole officer.
Commissioner Kelly: And, program officer, there's, equal, if not more women than there are men. So and much more diversity than when I first started, which is a good thing.
Kirstan: Absolutely.
Kirstan: And so what advice would you give young women interested in joining corrections and pursuing a career in this field? I know one of our listeners had asked about, you know, a career development question. And, and, you know, if you're looking to either join corrections or advance your career, what are some of the tips you could offer?
Commissioner Kelly: So I always say, even in my in the speeches I do that. I wish that everybody that joins CSC could have the same passion as I do after 41 years. I mean, I still love what I do, and I've loved every single position I've occupied. I've loved the work. So the one thing I would say is you have to be enthusiastic about the work that you do, because that translates into how you do your work.
Commissioner Kelly: So I think that's very, very important. You really have to get into your work, like really own your work and understand your work. I think that's very important as well. The other thing is, and you know that, Kirstan, in my speeches, I always say: "There's no greater responsibility than having the care of other human beings." So we always have to remember that, that in the end, each one of us that works in corrections can make a huge difference.
Commissioner Kelly: And we are dealing with human beings, obviously, they're a segment of the population that some people feel, it, you know, deserve to be incarcerated. Some people feel they should be incarcerated for their whole life. But the fact is that, more than 95% of offenders are going to be released back to the community and eventually may become our neighbors.
Commissioner Kelly: So we have to do everything we can to ensure that they are, you know, better when they leave. Then, when they obviously were admitted to federal corrections. The other thing, the quote that I use all the time is: "Every job is a self-portrait of the work that you do. Autograph your work with excellence." And this is something that from the very first day I joined CSC, it's been in the back of my mind.
Commissioner Kelly: I've tried to do every single job, giving it my all and autographing or trying to autograph my work with excellence. So I think that's very important.
Kirstan: And when you talk about doing this work for so long with, federal offenders in our system, have you ever had anyone come back and say: "Thank you. You really made an impact on my life."?
Commissioner Kelly: Yes, actually. So I would say being a parole officer, like working directly with the offenders is one of the top positions. I enjoyed it so much. And I recall in 1984 I had an offender on my caseload and he was young, he was 18 years old. And, I spent quite a bit of time speaking with him. And when I spoke to inmates, I always tried to say, put yourself in the shoes of the victims.
Commissioner Kelly: And let's say something like that happened to you or to a loved one. And so spent a lot of time on that. And when I became commissioner, I had been commissioner for, I would say two years, maybe three, when I got an email and, it was from him and he said: "Are you the Anne Kelly that used to be my parole officer in the early mid 80s?".
Commissioner Kelly: And he said: "I just want you to know that the conversations we had really had an impact on me and that I never got in involved with the law ever again." So those are the stories that make the job so rewarding, because you know that, you know, interaction with others normally leads to change, and a positive interaction leads normally to positive change.
Commissioner Kelly: And research shows that a positive interactions with offenders does lead to reduce recidivism.
Kirstan: That's really powerful. And, I was sort of thinking about all the things you were saying and your very long career at CSC and the past few years, the last five years in particular, have been exceptionally challenging. And I know in speaking with a lot of our staff, the Covid-19 pandemic was, something that they all had to adapt to become very resilient. And, and now we seem to be coming out of it.
Kirstan: What keeps you motivated despite all these ups and downs and challenges over the years to keep on going?
Commissioner Kelly: I would say what keeps me motivated, is the people. In CSC, we have absolutely extraordinary people. For the most part, people join CSC because, they want to make a difference. They believe in the mission. It's definitely the remarkable people that we have in CSC that keeps me going. And the other thing over my career, you know, we've had, what we would call crises, where then you really see how people come together and pull together.
Commissioner Kelly: And I think, the pandemic was one instance where people pulled together. It was difficult in CSC, obviously, we have the care of other human beings. So, you know, our correctional officers were there on the front line 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. It was tough. But, it's because of the work of our correctional officers, our nurses, our food service officers and everybody else that we were able to get through it and, actually get through it fairly well.
Kirstan: Absolutely. Well, thanks so much for joining me today for the podcast.
Commissioner Kelly : Okay. Thanks, Kirstan.
Kirstan: That's all for this episode. A big thank you again to today's guests, Kathy Neil and Commissioner Anne Kelly. This brings us to the final part of today's episode, Common Corrections, where we look at a misconception about CSC and do our best to set the record straight. Today's common correction is: "Women have always had their own separate prisons." Well, today this is true. But this wasn't always the case. In 1835, almost a hundred years before the first official prison for women was opened, the first female inmates arrived at the provincial penitentiary of Upper Canada.
Kirstan: What we know today as Kingston Penitentiary, which is now closed. These women were housed inside the men's prison, separate from them, of course, at the prison hospital and north wing as a temporary measure. Over the coming decades, female departments at Dorchester Penitentiary in New Brunswick and at Alberta Penitentiary in Edmonton would also host female inmates, though not very often. But over the years, as inmate numbers increased, so did the need for expansion.
Kirstan: By the mid 1930s, 99 years after the first inmates arrived at Kingston Penitentiary, the women departments at Dorchester and Edmonton closed to merge into one main facility. And in 1934, the women moved away from the walls of Kingston Penitentiary and into Canada's first official prison for women. On the next episode of Prisons Inside Out, we launched part one of our three part interview series called Behind the Badge, where we chat with three different correctional officers, each from different institutions of varying security levels.
Kirstan: This has been a production of the Correctional Service of Canada, and I'm your host, Kirstan Gagnon. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next time.