Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
We discuss some of the trends we've observed in our practice during the COVID-19 pandemic when it comes to issues of family law. Whether it be divorce, domestic violence, or separation. The pandemic has impacted people's lives over these past two years.
Your no bullsh$t guide to divorce with experienced attorneys from New Direction Family Law and guests and professionals who have been there. Unfiltered discussions to help you move from victim to victorious and from bitter to better.
sarah: [00:00:00] Elizabeth
Jan: Stephenson. I'm Sarah Henke, you know us from new direction, family law, and your favorite podcast, talkers, podcasters. I don't even know what the title is. Term
joe: podcasts, word makers, I think is
Jan: Yes. So today it's more fun
sarah: than our day job. Don't you think it is?
Jan: Their day job is fun. I said that I lied. I like. I
sarah: bet, but this is not stressful. This is fun to talk about things and educate people and, have a little fun while we
Jan: do it. Yes. We're having some wine. We can talk about the fun topic that we decided to talk about.
COVID trends a year and half. March will be two years.
sarah: This is crazy. [00:01:00] Don't you remember when it first happened? You were on .
Jan: I was in the Caymans. I was like booze and hard. And on the
sarah: video, this is nothing.
Jan: Yeah. I was like, oh, Closed down their season. And I was like, oh, should sit in the fan. I'm never leaving.
This island are back
sarah: at
Jan: work and thereby going remote. And
billy: it happened on Friday the 13th, that was March the 13th. And I remember sitting at my desk and there was a Released that was happening on or live precedent on Facebook. And the chief Supreme court judge said that we were closing courts and you were in one of the back conference rooms, prepping is nine 11.
Like where were you when the world shut down? And I went running back and I was like, stop what you're doing. You're not being heard. And we all started watching what was going on. And we were like, okay, time to go virtual. And we did
sarah: on the flaw. We went back
billy: that Monday. Sarah zoomed
Jan: in because I was in the air.
I wasn't like that. It was chaotic. I wasn't like five airports on the way back now. I'd probably three. So I was like maybe I shouldn't come in. You guys, maybe I should stay home since this is [00:02:00] being serious.
sarah: We hit it on the fly. We didn't miss a truck. We set up zoom. Kept client. We kept initial consultations.
I feel really proud of us for
Jan: doing that. It was just such a stressful time for everyone, regardless of, your work or what was going on
sarah: and the court shut down. So if you had a case, so you got your custody case was coming up and you're going to get that. Yeah, sorry that
Jan: eventually they restarted the courts, we do need like domestic violence courts.
I remember I would still go to those in person because there's a need for that. Clearly we have to protect people in violent relationships. During the pandemic. And honestly, that's something where we're talking about the trends that we saw just as family law enterprise, and, coming out of it, what we've learned just in our practice, people staying at home together that just made those situations worse.
Because if you got, if your safe space was going to work or going to school, or just being out of the house and you can't do that anymore, then those people are in trouble.
sarah: Kids. Didn't have their eyes on him and couldn't see them and they're at home. So [00:03:00] it affected every member of the family. If you were in a domestic
Jan: violence.
Yeah. Just in what we do. I remember that being really scary for me just thinking about those people. I agree. And, but we did have those courts open back up. It still was hard and we had the
sarah: button that made a backlog and that's what makes it, we're still feeling that.
Jan: And since all this happened, I think we've gotten like three new.
Family law judges and wake county. So that all happened too during all of it. So we just really didn't know what was going on. And so you still
sarah: do some remote. We still do some in person. It's just a crap shoot.
Jan: It really is. Which, make sure your attorney is someone that can really move on a dime and change things up.
Could you do that? It's
sarah: I don't know. I look at my calendar in the morning that tells me where I need to go, and that's just how we roll. We just got it. Yes, it'd be there for
Jan: our clients. Yeah. So that's, I that's backlog has been there before. COVID maybe a little bit worse now.
Mediation is always important for you. So knowing regardless of what's going on, whether the courts are [00:04:00] open or not try to get mediation, if you can, but let's not do that virtually. We can do it virtually now. Great and of itself because not everyone lives here or you can get other things done during mediation, where usually you're like stuck in one room all day.
sarah: I think it's a benefit for clients. Calendar call where the judge calls the case of calendars every day. And that's virtual where . I used to like it, cause you go down and sit and interact with everybody. You're charging your client an hour to go down there and said, we're not now. So some actually say that's a benefit and a positive that's coming out of
Jan: the cabin.
sarah: Jen always prefaces talked about wake county is primarily served,
Jan: but that's my favorite county like other counties do it's fine. Other counties are cool. Yeah. Elizabeth vine were both born in wake county, born and raised, born in. And the old Rex hospital,
sarah: my mother was born in Mary Elizabeth hospital, which is like on where Mordecai is.
That's where they used to be. The old rags
Jan: don't even know about that one. [00:05:00]
sarah: Yeah.
joe: They just opened rec Sally Springs yesterday.
Jan: That's crazy. There's so many more people here than there used to be, which is good for us.
sarah: That's what we were just talking about. Jen, how many people get, w we're talking about people in the bores and
Jan: I don't
billy: know, the stats are all over the place, but I think regardless, COVID put a magnifying glass on every type of relationship possible.
Parents and kids, spouses are interrelationship work relationships and put a magnifying glass on everything friendships. Oh yeah, absolutely. Cause it wasn't just. During the last couple of years, there's been a lot of office, obviously, social injustice and things like that have come to light more brightly, so it's been, it's definitely done that and it's made you really, either. I'm talking to Joe before everything that you're either like, all right, cool mate. We've got some issues, but we're going to buckle down because we're in this, it. To do this, or you're like, screw this I'm
Jan: out of here. Yeah.
Just thinking about some of my cases I ran into, I had a couple who were on complete different sides of the political spirits. So during political spirits, we made me say it [00:06:00] slowly. I'm gonna mess it up here, sphere or. Political spectrum. And so obviously when we, before the 2020 results and that just selection then went on, , one of them came to me and was like, I just cannot stand him anymore.
He keeps saying all these things about, and they're stuck home together, simmering over it. And that just really pushed them to the edge. And then another couple, one, the. The husband father would travel all the time for work. So my client just hated them, but she was okay. Cause he was always the time.
So it was like, we can just make this work, but once he wasn't gone all the time and we no foreseeable future of him actually leaving the house again. She's can't take this anymore. I'm done. I cannot stand you. I'm be honest. So I'm sure. There's been plenty of other cases
sarah: like that. Absolutely. And then you got, three kids home that you're trying to homeschool while you're trying to work.
And you're trying to do this and emotions are [00:07:00] out, out of the roof. So yeah, . That's what made to think sometimes what was already
Jan: there, let's put stress on yourself and your relationships and it makes you really look at your relationships around you and say, this isn't going to be the only hard time in our lives.
Is this someone that I can get through those other hard times with, if I can't get through this.
sarah: I think you're either when bad things happen, you come together and plow through it or bad things happen. And , you find out, you just can't do that. And I, don't not sure there's a middle. Per se there may be.
Jan: I know, I don't know about any of
sarah: it, but I didn't see no life, either realize life is short.
billy: I think if you're trying to find a middle, you're really just covering it up by the way. Like you're not actually addressing whatever.
sarah: Yeah. It's like life is, I think a lot of my clients were a lot of older clients.
That just realized life is short, and I've been putting up with this shit for 25 years and I'm just done to
Jan: one of my clients was like, I honestly just want to don't I don't want to live with her anymore and I want to move to Vegas. I'm like, you know what? Let's make it happen. Yeah. And mean,
sarah: we put this plan in the place in August.
I [00:08:00] took her two months to, the money round and do all this stuff. And all she wanted to do was have a little. , just a little place at the beach. So
Jan: I thought you were gonna say Vegas. I was like, wait a second. When they running away together,
sarah: the Elvis chapel, it got buried.
Jan: It really puts things in perspective.
And they're just, like we said before, those lot of stressors. Jamie, my boyfriend partner, we were trying to figure out what to call him. Jamie. Yes. We'll just call Jamie. Imagine that the
sarah: what's your boy, Colin boyfriend. Jamie. Now what I'm going to do.
Jan: That's her Jamie, we dated two years and then he moved in right when COVID hit and I had lived alone for, oh my gosh.
Wow. Yours and he'd lived alone for a long time and then to move in together, which was hard and of itself, just moving with someone new and sharing your space with them. It's also, COVID. Whom all the time and,
sarah: That's probably good though. If you're in a new relationship, this is probably a good time to find out.
And you said this is going to work or it's not going to work,
Jan: but it could have been George [00:09:00] Clooney or anyone else moved in there and it still would have been hard. I don't know about, I don't know.
sarah: George
Jan: Clooney. Okay. Ryan Gosling that'll work. Yep. Okay. We're in agreement, it could be Ryan Gosling or anyone else.
And just sharing your space full time with someone is just always going to be like, wait a second. You
sarah: said like the person who's spouses lying on the Thomas. Oh, Tom. And I, he would, he started practice in Charlotte. So he'd be home like Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday afternoon. He would get on the train and go to Charlotte though Wednesday.
And I was so hot. I love him, but I'm so happy to see him. That's just the way I don't know how we would have, I don't know what we would have done. I think we would have been okay. It would've been tough. We would have been, . Text me everyday.
Jan: Cause I'm not that kind of Jamie, George and Ryan and I were all okay.
Yes. Jimmy Jones.
No,
maybe just have George, but you just, you have to work on things. So it was just new for everyone.
sarah: And [00:10:00] plus you can go out, go to concerts. You can do the fun things that you couldn't mix with your friends. When you really were this is all we got
Jan: so fast forward a year later.
So like to probably March of this past year. And that's when things really started to loosen up. And then we got news, there were going to be concerts and we had the people who are going through it and separating during that year, which I can't imagine a harder year to separate. And there's plenty of people who separated.
Not just because of COVID or whatever they were going through, but just, it was the time. And so they're separating and there's all these other things to consider, especially with children, are they going to do remote schooling or even if they have already separated and they have a custody order,
sarah: so you got a separation agreement. 2019
Jan: your child is 28. But
sarah: you did a separation agreement for someone in 2019 that did not anticipate any of this show. No one does that's what's
Jan: come up a lot in court orders. Didn't do it and even okay. You don't get the kids cause mom, all of a sudden is concerned about COVID and thinks that well, we can't exchange because.
I'm worried about him [00:11:00] going over there and you're still going to work in person and you're going to give him a red. So I'm just, I'm going to withhold the child. And we saw that a lot when. The court was just like, this is all new to us too. And you should still just exchange child.
sarah: That's what that thing or chief judge said, it's I don't care.
You have to change the child. I have feelings about that, but I'll see,
Jan: we're all going to have to figure this out together. And I think that's the point. Try it and work it out without having to come to court because you couldn't even really get into court that quickly.
sarah: Absolutely not. And that wasn't an emergency for anybody.
Jan: It's not an emergency at all. It's as far as emergency custody goes,
sarah: but then there are all sorts of issues. People feel like it's been like mask backs, just because you're married doesn't mean you're going to agree on those things. So what happened. Yeah,
Jan: they're not married anymore because they don't agree.
But they don't agree on the vaccines and I can speak more to vaccines even before COVID, because there's a lot of times when people didn't agree on vaccinations just for like measles and things that people have been vaccinated with or against, for decades century, which thank God, or we'd [00:12:00] still have measles and polio running around and that's not good.
And I guess not polio, you can't run if he had polio that's about that.
I mean it's true and factual and the judges, a lot of times what I would see would say, you need to get your kid vaccinated or what's the kid's doctor say,
sarah: that's what you had to go by.
Jan: I've seen some judges saying you need to
sarah: get vaccinated. Judge tell you to get your kid back then.
Jan: They can, there was a case out in New Jersey with the COVID vaccine and dad went to the court and said, mom refuses to get the COVID vaccine.
And I feel that our child who I think was immune compromised is in danger. And the judge said, okay mom can't have custody time until you get vaccinated.
sarah: I guess that goes along the lines of,
Jan: If he present evidence of doctors saying that they should be,
sarah: You want to, somebody is on life support and you want to, one person says no, and then I guess the judge and the judge can make that decision.
So I would say it's, it goes under that
Jan: timeline. Yeah. And I actually had a client of mine who saw that news article and read about it and she got really scared because. She is not comfortable with the vaccine, so she doesn't want to get [00:13:00] vaccinated and knowing that they might soon come out with children, her child's age can get vaccinated, knew that dad wants to vaccinate the child.
And so she came to me and Sarah, I'm concerned that this would happen. And then the judge would take away my child and I wouldn't be able to see the child alone. I know. I talked to her about that and advised her, and we were doing our separation agreement at the time. And it was just, it was really hard to navigate that hadn't come up yet because her child isn't of age yet to have the vaccine, but she knows it's going to happen where they're going to say that they can be vaccinated and to try and plan for that
sarah: things you never thought were going to even be a question.
Did learn a law school that are now.
Jan: So you have to plan for that. And I've been trying to do that with a lot of the separation agreements I've been drafting recently is thinking about, okay, we've lived through this who's to say, it's not going to happen again. You know what? Our remote school options, do you guys agree on that?
Do we need to cover that in the. And the paperwork at all vaccinations, do we need to cover that? And that's just hard cause either [00:14:00] vaccinating or you're not vaccinating. And if you don't agree, who's going to decide, right?
sarah: The thing about when it first hit, it was more, it was a lot about travel.
There were some places that, that were high risk that they're not going to South Carolina, or I'm not going to have to travel. There was like, I can't, you can't stop them. Right under the terms of the order of the agreement. And there's nothing you
Jan: could do about everyone just went to like extremes in
sarah: summer.
It was crazy and
Jan: it's secondary. Standable, it's scary, but you have these children and you're having to work with someone it's you have to somehow bend a little bit and trust easier said than done. For sure. And especially on, we have people who are just opposite ends of the spectrum and you wonder
sarah: how they ever get together anyway.
Jan: Alcohol.
I don't know, people that they meet. We were just talking to all those dating apps. It's you think it's a whirlwind at first can be,
sarah: it's always a whirlwind because you're thinking with your endorphins and [00:15:00] not
Jan: thinking that's the name of those places now? Yeah. But they break up and it happens and it's not anything crazy.
There's no 50% of people might get divorced. I don't know what the numbers are. We can't really say, but we just can all realize that we're not all relationships last forever. No, they don't,
sarah: but do you know? And there's reasons for it. That's why our job is challenging sometimes is that people are on different ends of the spectrum and can't find a middle ground.
That's why they generally come to us. Now we see them right. Or
Jan: end up in court, having a judge, decide how you're going to live your life and pairing your children.
sarah: That's Halloween was a little while ago, but that's scary. That's the scariest costume you could have. Yes.
Jan: So
billy: what do you guys say to a client that calls in and is , I'm immunocompromised, I'm very Provax and the kids are of age.
Yeah. That they can get a VAX and they're going to the other parent's house, but I don't fully trust, or they're not super worried about putting masks on the [00:16:00] kids are wearing a mask themselves. If they go out in public and stuff, so what do you tell clients in that instance? Or even vice versa?
If somebody is co it's not real, don't wear a mask. I don't care about my life. And then you send the kids.
Jan: Like we had to look and see first, if there's a current custody order or separation agreement to fall back on and look what it says in there, if not, then you have to reach out to the other party and see what you can somehow come to an agreement on.
And if things are bad enough to where you're willing to litigate it, then you're going to have to go to court again,
sarah: three months down the road. That's your honest, the reality of what we've been living through and you wonder why. Domestic violence is higher and stress is higher and people are beating people up on airplanes.
This is why, because we're sitting in limbo, that things we have never experienced before, and Sarah and I don't have a silver, I don't, we don't have the answer. All that. We have to work within the court system, which sucks
Jan: a lot of things out of our control. And we have to preference a lot of things, whether, we don't know what the judges are going to do.
We have a lot of new judges. This is also a new area to them as well. It's not like they've been making [00:17:00] decisions about. Bull diseases. Like my second glass of wine should not be saying the words of so many syllables fear. We talked about before the fear of CR communicable diseases and, that's a new realm for a lot of them and making those decisions.
And it's a tough decision for them to make and they'd be making decisions and they have their own personal feelings about it. And the, I don't know, I can't go up and ask them. And, put
sarah: yourself in this. I don't know what I would do. I Mom was old enough to make his own decision to do what he wanted to do, but if he was, 12 and could have gotten it, I don't know what I would have done.
If the if his dad said, no, we might've gone. What are they going to do?
Jan: tell him to keep a secret your child. Don't tell daddy.
sarah: All right. Now we're on the part of what not to do.
Jan: Yeah, no, that's not what you want,
sarah: but you, I hope everybody can understand why everybody's so crazy right now, but it's big emotional
Jan: stuff. I usually tell them a lot of times the judges easiest decision to make would be to say, [00:18:00] to listen to the child's physician.
Just like my client who was against the vaccine, said the doctor's going to say to get vaccinated. I've told him what to tell you that I, I'm not a doctor. I can't be that because the
sarah: judge is going to listen to someone who has the expertise to do that. And neither you neuron or he, or she has that expertise.
So they're going to look to somebody to do that. And they always do that. That's what I tell you have a therapist or a doctor or someone who's going to come in and testify. That's who the judge is going to listen to. Because they're not prejudice. There are no have a dog in this fight . The position comes in.
That's more than likely what's going to
Jan: happen. And that's scary for some people. And I get it right. And I haven't
sarah: had I don't know if you have the religious exemptions or. Exemptions or other than I wanted, or I don't want it. So I don't know what the judge, I don't know what judges are doing.
Jan: We don't take our religious exemptions. Yes, sir. You can fight for jobs that
billy: I only know this because I know people through family that work for federal government, which they were then to go start mandating the vaccine and they were going to be claiming that it was a religious exemption and she was very much They say, if they call bullshit,
Jan: then I might [00:19:00] lose my job.
Yeah, that's what I mean. It's not, I only can claim it, but it doesn't make it. But anyways, I digress on that. The family law. Yes. But there's other financial issues that's come up during COVID. The stimulus and the child tax credit and who gets those, the goods that
sarah: the judges don't want to touch that one, but maybe I'm wrong.
That's
Jan: my, usually either, if it's 50 50, if you guys are on a 50, 50 custody schedule, then please just split. But
sarah: that's what you want to do, but that's not what's happening in my case, the taxes.
And so you filed jointly. And so it's going, so that's residing in the marital residence and that's where it's going and directly deposited into his account. Mom, can't get. And right there. That's the problem.
joe: They're just forwarding the money, right? Instead of getting a tax credit, when we pay in April, we get it every month.
But I think people think of it as free money and it's oh, this April's going to suck
sarah: for some fentanyl. Yeah. I would say 2020 when they were getting the regular payments, that was the
Jan: [00:20:00] problem. And the economic stimulus. That's come up and you have to think about that in the future. Who's going to get those if there's more in the future, because we can't, now I know that might happen,
sarah: like redo contracts and law school, because you got to put in all this shit now, that you never thought about, I don't want to
Jan: redo it.
You can do it
sarah: like this. It's like PTSD or PTs
billy: PTSD. Did the stimulus checks, can that be looked at as income for like
Jan: child.
sarah: Yeah. No not yet, but they haven't addressed that.
Jan: No. And I haven't been in court on the specific topic. I just deal with having to negotiate it all the time
sarah: once. And the judge.
Kids were living a hundred percent with mom saw dad like two hours on a Saturday, give her them right.
Jan: Exactly. And that's what they're looking at. It's for the benefit of the children it's supposed to be. So let's look at the custody schedule, and the incomes of the parents and really, I had
sarah: one that was using that to pay his child support.
No,
Jan: that's not the point. That's not why the [00:21:00] government gave you the money either.
Something else that's been affected by COVID dating.
sarah: Yes. And [00:22:00] if you're, they're not doing it while you're married. Okay. That's
Jan: even harder. Okay. Let's talk about that. That is really hard to do during COVID is having a fair,
sarah: a lot.
I don't know about that. It's
Jan: not impossible. But if you're in the house together during the lockdown time period, and you're on text and your act girlfriend all the time, it's hard to get away from your spouse. That's true. My heart does not go out to them that are, that were going through that really difficult time.
You might've gotten caught
sarah: true. And then once you could get out, everything went lock. That's what I found my clients ever had. Not behaving well before then they just went wild after they could go out and it's they didn't even care.
Jan: Anyone cares about anything anymore. Everybody just screw it.
Let's live life just on the edge.
sarah: Again, if you have kids that aren't vaccinated and you're out dating and then you, there are all sorts of things that you never have to think about before
Jan: you have this crazy, but yeah. That was difficult, the affairs, I'm sure they put it on hold, which you should until you separate and [00:23:00] might even lead to some more separations through which is cut.
If you're doing that, then you should separate absolutely
sarah: yes.
Jan: To separate, but then the people who have gone through separation divorced and they wanted to get back on the playing field, then all of a sudden, oh, they will wear a mask all the time can just make out. When I want to make out to worry about COVID, that's going to be hard to.
sarah: It's all hard. If you've been married like 20 under normal secretary stubs it's yeah. I haven't had a lot of, you had a lot of re marriages in your cases that happened lately. I just thought about that.
Jan: Joe said
billy: statistically, it was before we got started, that marriages were down.
sarah: Marriages are down
joe: marriages that were requested. Marriage certificates Witten down in 2020, and the highest was Hawaii. They went down my. Like 17% Florida went down by 9%. Arizona went down by 8%. And those are the only states that they really studied. So I imagine the rest would be a smattering and there, but I think they pick those states because they were locked down
sarah: states[00:24:00]
Jan: you can't have your wedding, you can't invite your guests. So you're just not going to get married then.
sarah: So what does it say for 2021? Are we on the tech?
joe: I don't have any info on that. On this particular, this, the study I was quoting was from the Institute for family studies and they don't have anything for 2021.
billy: I'd imagine it would be because everything got pushed. You weddings were happening this year. I think a lot got
joe: right. Maybe you
sarah: got your license, but I I guess my point was a lot of times we see this, I don't know if you do. It was like, oh, we got separated. I cut the forest. I'm immediately getting into a relationship with someone.
And I'm getting married that I have been that upstate slowed down a
Jan: little that has slowed down. Although people still like cohabitate road. I
joe: agree to your point about dating, getting difficult. Another thing this study indicated that and we talked about this, I think forever ago that we, you speculated that there would be more babies due to COVID.
So the amount of sex we did go up for married people and went down for unmarried. People
billy: You got it. You can't have one with the camera.
Jan: What's the [00:25:00] pool size pool side of the question. People. Don't where to propose this question. Study, sample size. Yeah.
sarah: Pool swimming pool.
How many people were in the singles are at a pool?
joe: I don't know how many singles were in the pool.
Jan: Okay. So we don't have all the numbers on that, but. I guess it makes sense. Cause if you're married in the same house, what else do you want to do?
sarah: And if you're not, you couldn't go out and date or
Jan: you can't army and you can probably go down
joe: in certain age brackets,
sarah: which were what went down 15 year
joe: old.
Hopefully. Yeah. You would think no for married people 18 to 55. So it's a big pool.
billy: Hopefully we're not comparing those ages to get their first six.
joe: I just want a very specific study. It's just about people who are 18 married to 55 year olds useful this study,
Jan: how many 18 year-olds are married to 55. It shouldn't be,
sarah: but it should be.[00:26:00]
But in North Carolina, we're not unsure.
Jan: No, did not. Do we pass that law? Yeah, you
sarah: can't get rid of what? After 14 or something
Jan: now used to be 12 something awful. Awful.
sarah: Yeah, I haven't had one in this. I haven't had
joe: that. This BYU study. They did ask people, I don't know who BYU is. I don't know if it's reliable, but it's in the same Brigham young university I'm looking at.
Okay. Yeah. So maybe there's
Jan: an fan normal marriage rate is like 12 marriages to one person at a time
joe: it's skewed. So the question they asked people was did COVID deepen your commitment or did it make you appreciate. Your partner more and so two different questions. So let's just go with the one. So deepen my commitment to my marriage percentage wise. Who do you think, what percentage of people do you think agreed with that?
Their marriage got deeper. I don't even know what that means in their commitment. They got happier. I guess they tend
billy: to buckle down 2%. Maybe
joe: it's a BYU said it was pretty much [00:27:00] 50, 50, pretty much like divorce rate. So 51% said I got better 41 or 49%.
Jan: I would get kicked out of BYU in a second.
They have a lot of rules there. Can't follow that's what I get from that.
billy: So dating down sex for married couples up.
Jan: Yes.
joe: nothing really though, like extreme, like there was like
sarah: it didn't no, it's the world. It's just, it didn't change that much. If you were married, attends a lot for us as single.
You couldn't
joe: go out. Yeah. I don't know that it's enough to
sarah: watch a lot
joe: of Netflix. I don't know that you can really blame COVID if you look at the same thing, like the chart. So in 2015 to 2016, it went up by more than it did for COVID. And then from 2016 to 2000, The frequency of sex in America went down
sarah: the we economy
Jan: than it has.
I say the recession. But with COVID,
billy: A lot of
Jan: people lost their
sarah: jobs.
Jan: Yes.[00:28:00]
sarah: that? Yes, absolutely.
Jan: But
billy: that was something else that we saw come out of COVID was a lot of people lost their jobs, which one of the, one of the big stressors for marriages that can lead to divorce is finding. That's a good point.
sarah: I'm doing a lot of trials now about alimony and child support and nobody has a fucking job.
What is the judge supposed to do is I'm sorry. He lost his job. He doesn't have any income. Great. But she doesn't. She has 14. Then I'm going
Jan: to each child's board and I've seen where I've seen people who have been fine financially during COVID and this, the other extreme have you better because the market's gone up
sarah: market goes up
Jan: or just.
Any kind of field where you weren't affected and you can work remote and everything was okay.
joe: Some people who were working from home already, so no difference in their lifestyle,
Jan: they've been able to save more, but I've seen people who are, who could do things. Like I have a case where he was pursuant to an order, pay the mortgage where [00:29:00] the other spouse lived and he just took a COVID forbearance.
I wanted to dump all the backend of the money on her when she refiled the house.
sarah: Yeah, no, I didn't. I That was in a case. I didn't do that.
Jan: It's sneaky. We get wave with it. I didn't like it. I was side that's
sarah: exactly what came up. There's X amount of equity in it, and this is no, that's not how this works.
Let's think about what she's going to have to pay
Jan: on the backend, just as us, as we were looking through accounts and doing the financials, there's been certain things that have changed because of the COVID. So that's something to keep your eye on as well.
sarah: You got to, if you're looking for an attorney, it it's find somebody that, cause it really is.
It's things you haven't thought about before and you've gotta be creative. And when you sit down on that first initial consultation, We need to educate our clients about here's what's different now, you may be talking to your friend down the street that got divorced even a year ago.
And they didn't have to think about these things, but these are going to be some heart issues that you're going to have to talk about. And we're going to have to get
Jan: through with the crazy housing market and how to deal with that. Cause [00:30:00] a lot of times before maybe people both agreeing to leave the marital home and self.
And while prices are high, which that sounds really nice. You might have one spouse. It's I can't go out and buy anything.
sarah: What am I going to do? Where am I going to go? I'm going to place it. And they're like stuck together there. Yeah, because she was, she can't leave and he wants her out. We're not doing that, man.
Jan: It's a mess. And dealing with the housing market and you would think would be good. People just sold and
sarah: Yeah, but, or I want to stay and you have to pay the other person out in their half of equity. And now it's three times when it was like, holy
Jan: shit, you get an appraisal one month. And then you're negotiating three months down the line.
And the price is probably even higher.
sarah: So I've had a lot of it's all we're going to sell it. And we're going to split what we get, because that's how you can do.
billy: And try buying
Jan: again, rinse. I'm just, yeah, it's just, it's hard, especially if you have the client that doesn't make a lot of money, so they can't qualify for a new home or,
sarah: and that's another, you talk about that, if you're a stay at home parent or housewife or house man husband,
Jan: House my end.
sarah: What does it [00:31:00]
Jan: have to be a stay at home? Husband, stay home. Dad is what a house,
sarah: That's what banks want. They want to see six months of him paying you consistent. I can have an order that says he's debated, but they wouldn't say that he's paid. So what are you supposed to do for that
Jan: six months?
Need time to refinance the house. And the other one was like, no, I want my
sarah: money now. That's what's great about mediators and having reasonable attorneys on the other side is that they understand that. Yeah. All right. Let's give them 12 months or 24 months, but I even had 36 months. The, let them do what they need to do.
. I know people hate attorneys, but we're really good at what we do, on both sides. And if somebody's not represented, it just makes it doubly hard.
Jan: And there's also some unreasonable attorneys out there. And that's when I work really hard to get into mediation with a mediator that I choose that I know knows their stuff.
So they can go into the other room and actually speak some truth and honest with the other person.
sarah: My job is to let you live your life, parent, your children. I get to be the bitch. I get to determine, I get [00:32:00] to talk to the other party. You just, my job is to get you out of this mess and let you work on yourself.
Get to therapy, take care of your kid. And that's what our job is to advocate and work really hard, to make those decisions and make those things happen. Get
Jan: you to their side, right? To the other side of COVID, we'll get you to the other side of your divorce. We will, we promise. Dating or not dating whatever.
sarah: Yeah, we'll do it. We'll do it. And Jen's our go-to girl on that. We'll help you find your
billy: new direction in life. That's right. I think when people are really looking, and this is, I heard that someone else say this recently and it hit home, struck a nerve. I was like, that's not true.
But when people were searching for attorneys, they automatically have the idea that there are. Yeah, I went to law school. All they want is your money. You're just another case. And so you're just trying to find the one that maybe is the cheapest or whatnot, but I'm here to tell you, and I'm not just saying this because I'm biased and I work in a law firm, but not all attorneys are the same.
I can promise you that.
sarah: You guys are the one that takes a take the phone call. But if somebody comes to me and says, I want a bulldog, I'm a summation of new scorched her at the same [00:33:00] thing. I'm really sorry, but I am. Person
Jan: for you. They send them to me,
sarah: I'll kick them out.
I'll go to court, I'll kick their out. I'll do whatever I'm going to do, but that's not
Jan: right. And someone might say that and then you talk to them and you tell them, okay these are your, these should be your expectations. This is the reality that we're living in. And if this is what we want, then there are certain ways to do this.
That aren't just throw everything in. We can accomplish it in a different manner, right? Yeah. And just talking about attorney is not all being the same. There are so many good attorneys that we practice with. And when I see them on the other side of the case, I'm like, yes, we can resolve this. We can do this for both the benefit of both the clients.
Then there's sometimes, and the other person on their side, I'm like shit. And
sarah: If they say, we're in litigation or he has. Who is that? Cause then I know how this case is either going to go this way or it's going to
billy: go now. Oh, we'll ask it during the intake call calls in and there's yeah.
Ever see these papers and blah, blah, blah. Okay. It wasn't an attorney that filed on your, on the spouse's behalf or whatever. Oh [00:34:00] yeah. What's their name? They tell me. . I'll either say, oh yes, we're familiar with that attorney on there. Decide, and that's my indicator of oh, shit, them again.
Or it's oh no, we're very familiar with them. We've had them in their side cases. They work really well kind of thing. So there is absolutely that nuance to knowing the family bar.
sarah: I think we're, I think we have our, we have a good personality in the firm. We have a good value system.
We're going to advocate for you really hard, but we're going to do it in the right way and you're going to come out the other side. Okay. And obviously we're doing something right. And we don't have to do as, as tack this. And we'd,
Jan: And when they're on the other side, you gotta be able to roll those tactics.
Oh, absolutely. That's all we can do, but we
sarah: do it the way it's supposed to, we do it above board and the way it's supposed to
billy: be done, just roll with the punches with COVID and I think that's also something else. Firms are operating like everybody. Everybody's figuring it out, like how are we going to run our business as well as, support our clients and still advocate for our clients and everything, whether that's in office consultations, virtual consultations virtual mediation, some firms still aren't doing in person, or, in our firms [00:35:00] specifically, we are asking whether you're vaccinated or not to wear a mask.
It's also still the city mandate. So there's that piece of it, so it's just juggling all of that and just COVID is just blown up everybody's world as an aside relationship side,
sarah: everything. But at the end of the day our focus is yes. And helping you get through this shitty really awful.
Quite frankly, that's what it is. And it's magnified at this point.
Jan: Yeah. That's what I tell everyone. I was like, this is going to be really awful for you. These are the legal ends of this and going through the separation and divorce, but a year from now, you're going to be in a much better path.
Like I can just, I tell that to people and then I don't believe you
sarah: in person then. They start to.
Jan: Yeah. And I love talking to them at the end and I get to hear like all the new things they've started doing and what they're doing now in their life and how they live in this. I had a client recently who bought this cute little house and she's just so happy.
And it just, she just sent me a picture out of the blue. I hadn't spoken to her in months and she's I just bought this house and wanted to thank you. And that just makes me happy. I know we're helping people get to that end and
sarah: we can, I know it's tough, but that's what we're here [00:36:00] for. We've
Jan: never.
billy: Seeing someone come in, I don't care. What side of the divorce you're on, whether you're the leaning out or the leaning in spouse, never seen someone come to us. That's not in a better place by the end of things, but great, stronger, more resilient, happier learning, a new lease on life and what they can do.
So even though it's so hard to see and you feel like you're drowning and just grasping to try to come up for air in the beginning.
Jan: We got you by that air. We got your back. We got to
billy: actually, do you have a COVID related question? So with this is we're talking about family law trends and Kevin.
Mediations and cores. It's a lot of it did switch to virtual, especially to begin with. And I know there's a lot more in-person stuff now, but do you guys feel that virtual mediations are still as effective as in-person mediations or do they have their advantages
Jan: disadvantages
sarah: effective? I maybe wrong, but one, I want to make clear to everyone.
You don't sit in. It's not like TV. You don't sit in the room with your spouse. You're in separate rooms. And we always have, [00:37:00] or I have my clients come in and sit in our big conference room and we zoom with the mediator. So I don't see the other attorney for the most part. I don't see the other party. If you're a good mediator, your personality and what, and I know who they are and that's who we use.
And until I've seen it really work
Jan: well. Yeah, I think it's client-based for me, I would say, I know someone might react better if they were put in the corner and locked in a room. So for those cases I would push for in-person other times and they're locked in a room with me. So that may
sarah: be start.
Jan: Yes. Yes. And just depending on the media here as well, one of the things that makes it difficult is, wrapping up those final loose ends and making sure you have a mediator that they'll be able to do like a virtual notary and know how to do that correctly, get email and spreadsheets and yeah, because I've run into that issue.
And that's been like when the worst part with virtual mediations is. Not getting details nailed down in a least immediate settlement agreement. That's like a firm contract. And then the other attorney, you [00:38:00] haven't been able to work with being, that's why you're ending up in mediation and they can't resolve language issues with you drafting it later that no one's held accountable because no one signed anything.
So we were all virtual. So make sure you get a mediator that's at least willing to do the virtual notary and really put some terms concrete. If you are able to come to
sarah: agreement. Agree. Agree. I have a
joe: COVID based question. Okay. You guys have said before, and you'll hear it all the time that divorces happen a lot in money is a big factor inside of it.
I was wondering about the flip side of that. Have you guys seen or heard a lot of people that just feel like right now it's too expensive to get divorced with some of the stuff we were talking about, we could sell the house, but I can't afford to get another one. You've got all these people unemployed, you get inflation possibly coming or food and grocery bills are skyrocketing.
Do you think that there is. Do you think that not having enough money is preventing people from getting divorces
Jan: right now? I think that's always the case. If there are someone, if that's the relationship they're in financial issues, hold people back from separating
sarah: and the recession. I [00:39:00] don't, you weren't really practicing them, but I was, and that was a big issue with people just stayed together.
Cause I couldn't afford to separate, I haven't seen that now because a lot of our client, they are employed. They have 401ks, they have stock accounts and mutual funds. So it hasn't been that hard for them because as Jen said, some people have benefited. And some people have not been very uneven.
Jan: The economy seems to be shifting to, we have the labor shortage and people finding new avenues to work. But in general, I that's why people stay in like domestic violence relationships if they don't have the finances to go out on their own. So that's always a case of, you're just someone in a relationship where you don't have the fives to see yourself out.
And if you get to an attorney. And we can talk you through how you can get back on your feet. That's helpful. Or if you're in like the domestic violence situation, going out to interact or an organization will help you get established and you can get childcare based on finding employment.
So you can know that you're going to have childcare when you get a job. So you're not scared of not being able to do [00:40:00] both. So it's helpful. And there's also been an update.
billy: Talking about jobs. And I know that , there is some difficulty in finding jobs, but also there's a lot of jobs that are available too, but COVID also like we had to go virtual.
Everybody had to go virtual, but wasn't already virtual. And so there are a lot of jobs now that even if it's part-time or per diem, whatever it is that all. Just data entry or, making phone calls and things like that. So that has helped change, like different platforms of like Upworks and things like that, that for some, for a little bit of extra or new income as well.
So there's definitely been some benefits, but I would say people that have reached out to us on average, even if it hasn't been as many people, they're more serious. They're not just fact finding you're getting information. They are ready to go. They've already made the, what about
joe: people that are, cause I think the, what was the number is like 4.9 million jobs.
People just quit recently and I've heard some people say that they might be going into the gig economy. Like you were saying, there's all these new jobs. How does that work? Like I know I couldn't buy a [00:41:00] house if I didn't have six months of income. How does it work going into divorce? If you just entered in the gig economy and on paper you make like nothing.
Is that just good for you?
sarah: It depends on the payee or the pay
Jan: or if neither party has any money. You're both going to just have to figure out how to live on your own. But you're an adult. You should figure out how to live on your own. Sorry. Real Sarah coming out, the cynical
joe: side of me was like, if you have a good paying job and you're about to get a divorce, she'd be like, go drive Uber.
What
sarah: I know is that judges aren't stupid and we can discovery and we can do depositions. We'll find that out. And we'll impute income to you. If you've lost your job and the judge says, get a job, you're still going to pay. And then you're
Jan: going to look like a shark and then they're gonna make you pay attorneys.
Don't do that. Yeah.
billy: Actually I had a friend asked me that recently that she has been the breadwinner in a situation or makes more, but spouse is still does well, but he's been threatening, but they've been, there've been discussions of [00:42:00] separating and he's been threatening to quit. You do the job.
And I was like, I'm an attorney. So I cannot provide legal advice. However, I know that's
Jan: not gonna fly, so that's not gonna fly, speak to an attorney. If you're listening to her saying, please go talk to an attorney next, go round, get a prenup. Want how many times I say that? I think I've only done one prenup this past year, which is really sad.
So
billy: speaking of that, can you put in a prenup that if you don't get vaccinated, we're going to get a divorce.
sarah: You can put whatever the hell
Jan: you want to in there. I don't think that's against public
sarah: policy. The only thing you can't put in there.
Jan: So if you're putting them in the prenup, you're doomed for
sarah: down to that mix
joe: for what?
The next one? Yeah,
billy: the booster shot. I don't
Jan: know,
sarah: mostly about money and property and very interesting case today. Yes,
joe: we are getting more polarized. I wonder if you're going to see like political stuff make its way into prenups. I don't
sarah: think that's, I don't tell
Jan: you get married if you're like
joe: do that.
And a lot of [00:43:00] issues. People have switched political sides, especially
sarah: in the last election. Aren't about your differences. And if you get divorced about differences, prenups are about how are we going to divide our property and who's going to get what money.
Jan: But
billy: also who's going to pay like debts
Jan: as well.
But
sarah: it is against Papa Paul to say, if you're really watching Fox news and we're getting divorced, you can't put that in.
Jan: Yeah. Like it's not about controlling your relations.
sarah: That's a very good way to put it.
Jan: Thank you. Yeah, but it's helpful in the end where if you don't feel locked into a relationship that you're not happy in because you're afraid of playing, paying Charleston child support that you're not going to have to pay that again.
Spousal support, but
sarah: yeah, I think it helps you if you are in a uneven. And generally what happens with prenups is somebody who has a lot of money. Somebody has no money. And if you need to leave hours, if you're the. Earning spouse or whatever, have something in there as a trigger that allows you to leave and be able to do that.
So it's a
Jan: good way. A cushion. I like talk to people about maybe a cushion, like you there on your feet. There's a limit. There's [00:44:00] no more than two years of spousal support to be determined. That sort of thing is a good way to think about it too. But also what people don't think about is if you don't have any money and you're getting married, hopefully you create wealth in your marriage and that's something to plan for in the future.
And that's why I needed. Yeah,
joe: I read the the list of the richest people on the planet. And like the big ones, bayzos or whatever, but sitting at number seven was basis as ex
sarah: and she's doing good work with her money and
joe: she's already like giving away, like Billy
billy: that's Elon Musk,
sarah: he's going to wipe out hunger,
but,
joe: And I thought it was interesting is if you look at like position 7, 8, 9, The family of Walmart, mom, dad kid, too.
And those guys together have way more, but Walmart's yeah, we're just hiding it. The wife's got like 47 billion. The husband's got 48
Jan: billion. Then there's the rest, like 98 of us, 80% of us who have
sarah: child to board to make sure we're not on
joe: Medicaid. We're just shopping on Amazon trying to save up to go to [00:45:00] space.
Jan: Yeah. Tax the rich say, all so COVID
billy: trends, let's do a recap.
Jan: Things are changed. Find an attorney that can adapt and is knowledgeable and knows what to look for in your case and
sarah: find a family law attorney is what I was saying. And there's nothing about other niches or niches nieces,
Jan: Les niches. Yeah. A little. Yeah. Yeah. I know. Listen, they know the
billy: legal words, but just not
Jan: commonplace.
We don't enjoy wine while we are doing your case.
sarah: I find a family law attorney because I had cases like what the state attorney, then they're all very smart and I know what they're doing. You need to know the law and what we're doing and the stuff Sarah and I have been talking about today is specific to family law and custody and spousal support in property division.
It's not about a, is not about contract. It's not criminal
Jan: law. It's not the same [00:46:00] thing as you, if you turn around and need a real estate attorney and don't
sarah: Come to me because that's out of my wheelhouse.
Jan: For sure. Yeah. So just, make sure you're making good decisions out there. And to be patient with everyone else around you is behind. Yes. Because everyone is going through a hard time. These past couple of years, and the pandemic just sucks. Just practice some kindness and empathy and be thoughtful.
I agree. Okay, come see us. And we also
billy: to help with the whole kid situation, we do have a video shameless plug. We do have a video on our Facebook page that we talked with a family therapist and talked about how to co-parent with your kids parent during a pandemic and focusing on really what you can control.
And I think there was a lot of good knowledge nuggets in
sarah: there. I have a lot of learning curve for us. It's a learning curve. They're navigating all new stuff. I have
some
Jan: good friends in the education field high school counselors, teachers, and they've all recently said that they can just notice that the children took a big hit this past year.
And not saying one thing or the other [00:47:00] about schools being closed. Everyone's trying to do make the best decisions. They can run a general hole, pay attention to your kids and help them and guide them through this and pay attention to yourself. Everyone's stressed out and everything's new to everyone.
And we'll get through
sarah: this.
Jan: We'll get through it. We'll get through this together. We will. 20, 22.
sarah: Here we come. Oh my God. I'll be so happy. But
Jan: remember
billy: we said that about 20,
Jan: 21,
sarah: they probably go back and listen to what we were saying.
Jan: Okay. That's okay. We got vaccines now.
sarah: We're mad.
Jan: Okay.