Walking This Way

Welcome to a special Ramble Worldwide takeover episode of Walking This Way.

As a Ramble Worldwide ambassador Lise is joined this week by Donna Noble, a yoga educator and author of Demystifying Yoga: Making Yoga Inclusive for Everybody, and Jacqueline Hooton, the personal trainer behind Her Garden Gym on Instagram and author of Strong: The Definitive Guide to Active Aging. The three of them met on a Ramble Worldwide solo women's walking weekend in the Lake District, arriving as strangers and leaving as friends. 

Ramble Worldwide has just launched their brand new brochure and excitingly there are 40 new tours included. They have been running walking holidays for 80 years so they really do know what they are doing. There really is something for most people, from gentle walks to big mountain days and everything in between. You can go on a cruise combined and do walks on shore days. Go to Barbados or Morocco. You can go solo, as a couple, with friends or as a private group, to incredible places all over the world. It also runs women-only tours, and every walk is led by a trained volunteer expert leader, which takes a lot of the worry out of it.
 
Plenty of women still assume a walking holiday is not for them, so this is a chat about who these trips are actually for, what travelling solo with a group is really like, and why it can be worth simply putting one foot in front of the other.

In this episode, join Lise and discover:
  • How Donna, who had never done a proper walk before, got on during the weekend
  • What was going through Jacqueline's head before the walk, from pace and steep descents to bathroom breaks, and how the tour leader paced the group so nobody felt left behind
  • Why walking side-by-side leads to honest conversations between strangers, and how the weekend suited both the introverts and the extrovers
  • What Donna and Jacqueline would say to a woman who wants to try something but feels she is not fit enough, young enough or brave enough
Quote of the episode
“Walking is probably the most accessible form of exercise there is. You don’t need to be particularly fit, you don’t need to be young and you don’t need much equipment. And yet lots of women still don’t necessarily think walking holidays, walking groups or outdoor adventure are for them. Why?” - Lise Thorne

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Produced by The Good Studio - thegoodstudio.co.uk





Creators and Guests

Host
Lise Thorne
Host of Walking This Way and champion of midlife women
Guest
Donna Noble
Yoga educator and author of Demystifying Yoga: Making Yoga Inclusive for Everybody
Guest
Jacqueline Hooton
The personal trainer behind Her Garden Gym on Instagram and author of Strong: The Definitive Guide to Active Aging
Producer
Tim Beynon
Podcast producer and Founder of The Good Studio

What is Walking This Way?

Welcome to Walking This Way - the upfront, no-nonsense podcast about midlife for women who are done with pretending it’s all fine.

Join Lise Thorne for honest conversations, unfiltered stories and a good dose of humour as she explores what it really means to be a woman in midlife - from shifting priorities and changing bodies to rediscovering joy, purpose and self.

Real talk. Real women. Real midlife.

Because this isn’t about surviving midlife - it’s about walking it your way.

Walking This Way is produced by The Good Studio.

Lise (00:00)
Walking is probably the most accessible form of exercise there is. You don't need to be particularly fit, you don't need to be young, and you don't need much equipment. And yet lots of women still don't think walking holidays, walking groups or outdoor adventure are for them. Why?

Hello and welcome to Walking This Way. Today's episode is a little bit different, because Ramble Worldwide are taking over the podcast. If, like I certainly used to, you hear the words "walking holiday" and immediately picture a group of incredibly fit people marching up a mountain at speed, I think this episode is going to change your mind. But before we lace up our walking boots, I have a little favour.

If this show has ever kept you company on a walk, share it with the women and the walkers in your life. Follow us and leave a review. It only takes 10 seconds, it helps other people find us, and you'll get a notification every time a new episode drops. What could be easier? This is Walking This Way, after all.

One of the things I've really loved discovering since becoming a Ramble Worldwide ambassador is just how many different ways and places there are to have a walking adventure. There are brand new brochures out with 40 new tours, and there really is something for pretty much everyone. Gentle walks, big mountain days and everything in between. You can travel solo, as a couple, with friends, or even as a private group. There are trips all over the world, and you can even combine a walking holiday with a cruise.

But what I think really makes these holidays special, as you'll hear throughout today's conversation, is the people. The connections, the conversations, the laughs you have along the way, and the brilliant, brilliant volunteer expert leaders who take away so much of the worry and help you properly discover a place rather than just walking through it. Ramble Worldwide have been doing this for 80 years, so they know a thing or two about putting together a bloody good walking holiday.

In this episode we're going to talk about where you can go, who these holidays are actually for (not who you think they're for), what travelling solo with a group is really like, and why sometimes the best adventures start by simply putting one foot in front of the other.

As I've already said, I'm an ambassador for Ramble Worldwide, and I can tell you I wasn't chosen for my beautifully curated grid of mountains and trails. I was chosen because walking is for every body, every age, every size, every person, and I'm passionate about getting more people moving. Until you've experienced it, you won't understand the feeling you get from walking with a group of people. I promise you.

Today I'm delighted to welcome two wonderful women, Donna Noble and Jacqueline Hooton, who I went on a Ramble Worldwide weekend with. We started off as strangers, and now I feel really privileged to call them friends. I know you're going to love them just as much as I do. Right, let's go walking!

Lise (03:36)
Today I'm delighted to have two incredible women on the podcast with me who are passionate about movement for life and movement for everyone. I met Donna and Jacqueline at a content creator event hosted by Ramble Worldwide, when a group of us went on a solo women's walking tour and spent the weekend at Hassness House in the Lake District. It was absolutely glorious.

Donna Noble is a lifelong advocate for inclusive yoga, challenging how we think about wellbeing and belonging. She's recently published her book, Demystifying Yoga: Making Yoga Inclusive for Everybody. Jacqueline Hooton, maybe better known as Her Garden Gym on Instagram, helps women get strong, fit and healthy to enjoy optimal ageing, and published a book last year, Strong: The Definitive Guide to Active Aging. Welcome to the podcast.

Donna and Jacqueline
Thank you. Thank you.

Lise
So lovely to have you both here. I didn't want to give a big explanation about you both, because I'd like to hear in your own words what you do and, more importantly, why you do it. Jacqueline, could you kick off?

Jacqueline
Sure. Okay. Well, I'm a personal trainer, and I've been one for about 25 years. During that time I've also worked as a fitness tutor, delivering fitness courses to people who would like to enter the fitness industry.

My career has evolved over that period. When I first started training, I was thinking about women who were the same age group as me, perhaps postnatally, helping them with their antenatal and postnatal fitness. Now I primarily focus on women in midlife and beyond, supporting them to age better and live longer, vital lives, if you like, so they can carry on doing everything they do.

Alongside that, because of my social media presence, as you mentioned, I was able to write and publish a book last year, which is very much about supporting women to be strong and active for life from midlife onwards. That's also led me to work with other groups and companies around health, fitness and lifestyle. So that's me in a nutshell. I'm 63, I've got five children and four grandchildren. I'm just going to get that in as well.

Lise
Jacqueline, I was just going to say, you've done a few posts recently of you working out in the gym, and somewhere in one of them you said you're 63. I go back to it again and again and again. I must have checked that about four times. I was about to ask you how old you were.

Jacqueline
Yes, I am 63.

Lise
It's the joy that you bring, and the fact that you're 63 and doing stuff that 28-year-olds can't do. You show people that anything's possible. I think that's the point, isn't it? You show them that you can go to the gym as a midlife woman or beyond. In my mind, by the way, I've decided that midlife goes all the way up to 80. That's my decision.

Jacqueline
Well, that's the thing. We haven't got an adequate term for this, have we? But I think when we see it, we can be it. For a long time people have thought we drop off a cliff. I had all this when I was 40, and it just goes on with every decade, it kind of gets worse. That's why it's really important to be present and be out there. I personally love it when I see women in their 70s and 80s online, exercising in the gym, riding bikes, whatever it happens to be, because it shows me that's possible. We've heard so much about the alternative, so it's good to see what we can do.

Hopefully, as you're saying, that's why I quite often make a reference to my age, because I love seeing people 10 years older than me. I love that. I'll think, "Gosh, I've found a woman who's 76 and she's doing deadlifts in the gym." That tells me it's still possible for me in 13 years' time.

Lise
Because it inspires us, doesn't it? It brings us along. It's the visibility. If we can see people doing it, we know we can do it. Donna, I'm going to bring that to you. I know you're one of the OGs in the yoga space, all about inclusivity, and you were talking about curvy bodies, but for everybody, yoga for everybody. Tell me a little bit more about you, what you do, why you do it and how you came to it.

Donna
Okay. Well, first of all, I can start with my journey. I knew nothing about yoga. I was working in the corporate industry, and a friend of mine was very much into what celebrities were into. She saw a picture of Madonna, and Madonna attributed her body to yoga, so she said, "Donna, let's give it a go." We got some yoga mats, and we were lucky that we had a colleague who was training to be a yoga teacher and worked with us. We were her guinea pigs, and we went down to the meeting rooms and did yoga at lunchtime.

Like most people, I wanted to explore and become more experienced, but I didn't want to go to a class where I didn't know anything or look silly. So I found a beginners' class and started going. Then I was about to start my master's and, like most people, I had no time for yoga, so I gave it up. My love affair with yoga was very much short-lived. Fortunately, after completing my degree, I went to work for another company, a law firm, and they had an in-house gym. They brought in yoga, and from there yoga became very much part of my life.

It really helped me when I suffered with Bell's palsy. It allowed me to heal.

Lise
Just tell me what Bell's palsy is, sorry.

Donna
Bell's palsy is when one side of your face becomes paralysed. I woke up one morning and discovered my face had drooped. Initially I thought it was a stroke, but it wasn't.

Lise
How old were you then, Donna?

Donna
I was in my forties, I think. I had it for about five years and nothing really helped me. It was yoga that allowed me to slow down. I think I'd resigned myself to it, I'd had it forever. I'd tried acupuncture, and one thing I'd learned is that if you're going to have a practitioner or a therapist, make sure they're the real McCoy, not someone who's added it on over a weekend, tried it, and it didn't work. Then someone said, "Do you want to heal?" I said, "Of course I do." They said, "I know a Chinese acupuncturist." I went to her, had the first session, and by the next one my face began to tingle. I knew something was changing in my body. Then my face began to heal.

I began to see that my body wasn't just about how it looked. It was about all the things it could do for me, and how, when I gave it what it needed, it allowed me to heal. I went off, and I still didn't see yoga as a career. It wasn't until I was doing a master NLP practitioner course, after someone said, "Have a plan B," that I thought, okay, I'll study a teacher training course and see, maybe when I retire, I might do it.

But the universe called earlier. I retired from corporate when they allowed me to be very redundant, went off to America, discovered hot Bikram yoga and came back. Then Curvesome Yoga was created, to show that everybody was a yoga body, because I saw that certain individuals were missing from the yoga space. That was about 10 or 12 years ago, and since then I've just been disrupting the wellbeing space.

I've written two books now. I didn't intend to be an author, but my plan B slowly became my plan A and I've never looked back, basically. Now I class myself as a wellbeing educator. I educate yoga teachers, or anyone in the health and wellbeing industry, to make their offerings inclusive, diverse and accessible, because it's everyone's DNA to have movement, and even now, unfortunately, that's still not the case.

I think it's my lifelong mission. I'm still talking about things I talked about 10 or 15 years ago, and they're still very relevant now, or even more relevant now. Everyone has a yoga body, a bikini body, whatever body they desire or think the industry says they need. They've got it. It's exactly what Jacqueline was saying. It's almost more apparent now. We need it more. Every decade we can see the changes, and some of those are cultural, or marketing, or whatever it is.

Lise
And both of you represent this idea that movement is for everybody, in your different ways.

Jacqueline
Definitely. Definitely. And I think what we see online is getting worse, really, because we're seeing more extremes. I'm sure you see this with yoga, Donna, as well. You're seeing extreme poses, perhaps people who are hypermobile for a start. And when I look at the strength and conditioning work we're seeing, very often it's younger, very athletic people, and other people looking at it think, "Well, I'll never be able to do that." So this is why it's so important. We want everybody to be active. We want everybody to benefit from being physically active. If people don't see themselves represented, whether that's age, body shape, size, a disability, then they feel it isn't for them.

So it's really important that there's representation, and you do that yourself, Lise, in your own way. There's a whole group of women now who think, "I can be active as well. I don't have to fit a particular aesthetic." I think in a way we've probably all found that mission. We love it because we love moving ourselves in whatever way feels right, and that's why, for us as individuals, it's been quite a wonderful mission to adopt, because we do the thing we're talking about that we want everyone else to do.

Lise
Yeah. And I'm going to take us back to our weekend where we met, which is so full of joy for me. We all turned up at Hassness House, in the middle of sort of nowhere in the Lake District, and all came together. Had either of you ever been to that house before?

Jacqueline
No. I've been to the Lakes a few years ago, but not to that house.

Lise
Going back to that arriving moment, Jacqueline, how did you feel when you walked in that door?

Jacqueline
I was quite apprehensive. I think people often think I'm an extrovert because of my account and the stuff they see me do online. It's one thing doing things in front of a camera, when it's just you and you can imagine you're talking to one person. It's quite another meeting a group of women you've never met before, even though some of the people I was already connected to online, but hadn't met in person. I'm not an extrovert. I'm actually quite an introvert, so for me that was quite a painful, nerve-wracking experience, and my social battery was dead within about half an hour of meeting everybody. But wow, what a fantastic weekend. I think also because everyone felt a little bit like that, we're all going to a place where we don't know anybody, we're all strangers, but we're kind of united by the same thing. Goodness me, what a joyful weekend it was. I didn't need to worry at all.

Lise
It's funny, we'll go back to social battery in a minute, actually, Jacqueline, because I think that's really important. But we all turned up on our own, didn't we? I was picked up from the station with another group. Donna, what were you expecting when you arrived?

Donna
I don't know what I was expecting, but I wasn't apprehensive, because I run yoga retreats, so I'm used to going into an environment, holding space and being a complete stranger. So for me it was, I'll just go and see, there's nothing to lose. It was an amazing weekend. I have no regrets in saying yes and going. As Jacqueline said, I knew there'd be at least one person I knew from social media, so I felt fine about that. I was just like, give it a go. I'm one of those who just goes with the flow and sees what happens.

Lise
It's quite funny, because I was definitely nervous as well, and I love walking. I'm quite a walker. I've done quite a bit of hiking in the past, you know, a few mountains, whatever you want to call them, and long hikes, long rambles. But you weren't necessarily a walker before the weekend. She's shaking her head.

Donna
Not at all. Not at all. I hadn't walked before, and I thought, I'm into exploring new things, so let me go along. But what was the incentive? It was the easy walk. You just rock up with your trainers, it can't be that hard, can it? That type of thing. I think that was my lifeline. Yeah, the easy walk.

Lise
I know. Same thing. My face on that Friday night was a picture when they removed the goalposts and said we're going to have one walk. Part of the hook was that there would be an easy walk. And I think the losing of the easy walk was definitely down to our tour leader, Julia.

Donna
Yeah, I got told that. I think she met us all on that first evening.

Lise
My experience with Julia, and I've done a walk with her since as well, one of the tour leaders, is that she's fabulous. But she was like...

Donna
I think she just looked around the room and talked to us all and was like, right, it's gone. I was so shocked. I was like, where's the train? How can I get back home? I'm going to let myself down. Everyone here is an experienced walker. I didn't know the level of experience, but from what they'd done and offered, they were clearly more experienced walkers than me. It's like, my God, what have I let myself in for?

Lise
And I'm assuming for you, Jacqueline, the walking part of it wasn't a worry in any way.

Jacqueline
No, but obviously when we thought there were going to be two levels, you think, okay, I can get the vibe of that when I'm there. I can work out which I'm suitable for. But even though I'm used to doing a lot of walking and I'd consider myself to have a good fitness level, in my head I'm going, well, I've got osteoarthritis. I don't know, will I come down? What sort of mountains will I be coming down? And what about bathroom breaks? These are the things, you're blabbering them out. But as you can see, it was absolutely fine. The real joy in that was that Julia reassured us all from the outset, we're going to take it at a pace everyone can manage. And we did. It was so lovely.

Lise
There are two things I want to talk about. I do a lot of walking and I'm quite confident. It's funny, like you say, so of course, Jacko, I look at you and think, she couldn't ever worry about any physical activity, when I've seen you in that gym. I've done loads of walks and I think, what if I'm the slowest? What if I hold everyone back? What if it's me? I'm less worried about the bathroom breaks, for example, just because I did a very long walk that required lots of bathroom breaks. And actually that did become one of the funny stories of the weekend, when lovely Alison from Ramble was trying to get us places on time. There were maybe 12 of us, single female walkers, and it'd be, "I'm just going to pop," and she'd say, "No, get a move on!"

Jacqueline
That was so funny.

Donna
I do remember that. "I'm just going to pop to the loo."

Lise
So I definitely felt nervous about that and what it was going to look like. And that was the other thing I was going to say about Julia. She told us a story, I don't know if it was on the first night before we walked, or afterwards, but I think it was before, about leading a group of blind walkers on those trails in the Lake District. Apparently she went out into the car park and got rocks and moss and things and built a map on the floor of the car park. I don't know if you heard that story.

Donna or Jacqueline
Yeah, incredible.

Lise
So people could touch it. And that's when you think, okay, walking is for everyone. We're all going to be able to do this. And then let's go to the walk itself. Donna, you start. What did you think about the actual walk? I mean, we did quite a patchy walk in the end.

Donna
Yeah, we did. It started out okay, I think. What was nice was having, I think it was Penny, as my sort of companion, and having someone there was quite distracting. So I felt quite confident. I didn't feel overwhelmed, because I think the offer was that if it became too much, they'd come back by the house, which we never did anyway. But I had that in mind, that if I couldn't keep up or anything like that, I'd be fine. After a while I just found my stride and was able to get my own pace. No one tried to shoo me or hurry me up. I just felt very comfortable. The scenery was the amazing aspect of it as well. It was amazing being out in nature, the fresh air, and just being with other women as well, some in similar situations to me who very rarely walk. I just felt comfortable, and I knew we had breaks when we needed them.

But as we got further and further, it was like, where are we going? Where's the top? Where's the end? And then we were given the option. I think I was one of the ones that didn't go all the way up at the very end. We had fun because we were filming, so it wasn't like a serious walk. We all had fun and had a laugh. There was one bit where it became very warm, and I had my duffer coat, my puffer coat, on, and Julia took it from me. I said, thank you so much, and I didn't mind, it was like holding a large teddy bear. I thought that was so nice. Everyone made sure I was okay, and she actually said, "You're doing really well for a novice walker, you're doing really, really well." So it was an achievement for me.

Lise
You had a string rucksack on, and I thought, that might cut your shoulders. I didn't think about it until afterwards. I was behind you on the walk at one point. You just said about scenery, conversation, meeting people. We were all getting to know each other as well, and the time goes quite quickly. Jacqueline, I remember we'd done a lot of up, up, up. It wasn't, you know, it was reasonable. Julia was giving us lots of hints and tips about how to get up, breathe out longer on the out-breath, and she said it would be over in no time, which it is. Then we got to the top and, I'm sure I'm right, you filmed a reel with all of us. You were full of energy.

Jacqueline
Yes, yeah. Because I just thought this is going to look so fun, with everyone coming back down the hill again. It's me, obviously, content queen, going, this is really good content. But it was also a lovely way to get everybody in and show the joy we were all experiencing. And as Donna said, one of the nicest things, I think, was being able to talk to different people on that walk. There's nothing quite like walking and talking, is there? At home now, if I go for a walk with my daughter, who's got a baby, my baby grandson, those opportunities for talking while you're walking are wonderful. And I think that's the wonderful thing about that Ramble Worldwide weekend. It was fabulous to be able to walk in such beautiful scenery, and rather than sit down and talk to someone face to face, which can feel a bit too much for some people, can't it?

It's amazing the stories we shared with one another, really hearing some quite moving stories. You'll know about someone who was caring for an elderly relative, and there was lots I could relate to with that, with my own situation. People who've experienced trauma, we were talking about some of that, again having experienced trauma in my life. These are conversations you probably wouldn't have if you were just sitting down with somebody, but there's something very healing and very special about being outside in nature, and with women, definitely a group of women, that's why it works so well, walking and talking. It was lovely. It was really very special.

Lise
It's really life-affirming, isn't it? And I can see why we came together as a group. Like you said, we came together as a group of strangers, but having that walking, and also knowing, what I love about the walk with Julia and the Ramble walks is that we don't have to think about the walk. We're being guided. It blows my mind that all the guides are volunteers. I get it, they're fully trained, they've got all of the training and they get to go on these fabulous tours, but they're leading them as well. They come from a place of such love of the walk, and that came through in Julia definitely. We get to switch off at that point. You get to switch off from, like, decision fatigue. You're not deciding anything, you're following with everyone. You start as a group of strangers, but now I feel like, that's what I'm saying, I'm beginning to connect. It was only in June, so it was about, what was it, four or five months ago?

Donna or Jacqueline
May.

Lise
May, thank you. But you connect with strangers and, like you said, you share stories, which is really life-affirming and I think helps. I definitely think walking is such good therapy for people. It's available for everybody, which is what we're all saying here. And when we came off the walk, well, Donna, I am going to ask that question: how did you feel when we'd finally finished?

Donna
There was a moment when we were eating our sandwiches and even I was like, okay, I'm ready to get my feet up and have a little lie down. Some of us hadn't finished at that point, because we then did the next walk, which was the lake. I did the lake as well, yeah.

Lise
So I'm fine, you have your sandwiches, you finished. Some of us carried on in the rain, but that was fine.

Jacqueline
It went on for quite a while, didn't it? You didn't come home. You see the beauty about the walk, you didn't have to do that extra bit. People who felt like, that's enough, because that was a very long walk as it was. But I just thought, I can't come all this way and not walk around the lake, so I wanted to do that bit as well. That was the beauty of it. It was accessible for everybody. You didn't have to do anything you didn't want to do. I think people worry about going on a tour. I worried. Like, can I do it? Will I hold people back? Will I be slow? But the leaders, the group leaders, are so good at balancing that. Julia knew there were some people who wanted to go around that lake and didn't want to miss Buttermere, and she said, right, we'll stop for a biscuit and a cup of tea or whatever, and then we'll carry on and do that. And then the rest of us went back to the house.

Lise
And Donna, how did you feel at the end of it?

Donna
I think I felt, as I said before, a sense of achievement, because it was like, was it five hours, I think? I can't remember how many miles, but it was a real sense of achievement to have done it, and to know then that Julia had pushed us even more, because she saw we were all capable of so much more. For me, for something I hadn't done before, it was a major thing, and I would consider doing it again. It didn't put me off. It didn't scar me. I was scarred by running for years by a friend who took me too far too soon, but for the walk, it was amazing.

Lise
We were all very held, weren't we? Have you done any walking since?

Donna
No, I've done some, but not to that degree. I walk more than I would have done, maybe. I've been a townie. When I came back I did go into Sports Direct and look at walking shoes, basically, but it wore off. I'm sure I'll do it again, because I've now got that lived experience.

Lise
That's funny, isn't it? And how much you love it. And Jacqueline, you're a walker anyway, or I know you're a swimmer and a gym-goer and a runner and all those things.

Jacqueline
Yeah. To be honest, it made me think again about finding more opportunities for walking. I think the fantastic thing about walking, and what I say to clients when I work with them, is that walking is a really good entry point for people into being active. Again, we get this idea from social media that it's not enough. It's a very good way for people to access being more mobile and doing a bit more, if you don't have mobility issues. Most people can go for a walk from where they are, at work, in their lunch break, whatever. It's a really good starting point.

I also want to come back to what you said about Julia, because I think that's the mark of a really good leader and instructor, and Donna will know this as well, being an instructor. Julia was able to assess the group and give the group options, and then go, okay, for those who'd like to go on a bit further, we could do this. She paced it so well for everybody that nobody felt left behind. Nobody felt like you were being highlighted as a weaker person. We weren't. None of that was going on at all. That's really the mark of a skilled leader, I think.

Donna
I agree. And I think that ran through the group. Her leadership permeated the group, because we all felt the same. We all felt so supportive. We had a whole weekend together, curated by Ramble, and it wasn't just that walk. She said the following day, or was it the following day, I can't remember, because we only had a three-night stay, didn't we? The following day she was like, we're going to go for a small walk, we're going uphill. And it was raining as well. It was so lovely. Honestly, it's been one of my best weekends of the year, without a doubt. It was so lovely.

Lise
I agree entirely. They do women-only tours, and they do solos, couples, friends. They'll tailor it. And the other thing you said, we're jumping about a bit, but at the very beginning you said about social battery, Jacqueline, and I'm similar in a way. I certainly used to be more outgoing, but that was often alcohol-fuelled, if I'm honest, and that's not part of my life any more. So I'm quite introverted. It's very easy to be in our rooms, on our cameras, without dealing with everybody else's emotion and energy. Again, that was something I really enjoyed about the weekend, this balance. And I appreciate you did spend a little bit longer out around that lake, and it rained by the time you'd finished the lake. But we have those down times as well. The rooms at Hassness House, I mean, I want to move in there. I'd love to go and do a couple of weeks there. In the rooms you had tea and coffee and biscuits. My goodness. I wasn't even going to talk about Hassness House, I hadn't even thought about it, and the lovely Lucy and her partner who's just got married. The food that we were given! I remember on the first night we were all eating and it was this huge portion, and we'd sat on a train, certainly I'd sat on a train or in a car all day. I love my food and I couldn't eat it. Then you realise the following day, when you get back from your walk, they have homemade cake, including vegan cake, because Sandra's vegan, and someone else is too, maybe Jinty. So they had vegan cake, normal cake, so you eat cake.

I've been on a couple of ski chalet holidays. Skiing wasn't my thing, too many children to run around after, wet kit and lost gloves and everything. But in a ski chalet you have homemade cake when you come in, and then a lovely meal together in the evening. On the second evening the food suddenly made more sense, because we'd done five hours of walking up and down a hill, and suddenly you're ravenous. And I think, again, if you're somebody who's a little bit like, I'm used to being on my own, the idea of being in company for that long, or having to get to know people, can feel like a lot. But on the walks you could easily walk on your own without looking like you were being miserable. We all have those times when you'd swap conversation for quiet. Nobody could talk to me going up that hill, that's for sure. Julia was chat, chat, chat, and I was like, nope. I'm just breathing. I'm conserving life.

But the down times in between, and the flow of a whole weekend or a tour, mean you get time away from people as well. And you have comfort in that house. The lounge area is beautiful, wasn't it? You could sit down. Quite a few of us sat down with a book for a bit and just chilled in that space. We were still sharing the space, but we didn't feel we had to be engaged in lots of conversation. You can take and leave what you want. That's my point, and I think that's what you'd want to express to people who are nervous about going.

Jacqueline
Sorry, Lise, but I think some people stayed in their room a bit longer, with family or doing content or whatever, and then came down. Some were down and interacting. You were left to your own devices, very much.

Donna
Some of us were washing our hair, because we got really, really wet on that second day of the walk. And wasn't it a bit cold?

Jacqueline
It wasn't cold, actually. It was lovely.

Donna
Well, and the second day we went on a boat trip as well, didn't we? Julia made sure we went up a hill. We did a nice boat trip, I can't remember which lake, and we walked on the other side. Again, I could sing Julia's praises. She took me around the outside of Bath as well, with her husband, Tim, who we met. She said there was a running event, an endurance running event, and she said, what I'm going to tell you is we don't stop. We stay on one side and keep walking. And she was right, because if we'd stopped we couldn't have got anywhere. She really knew what we were doing, didn't she? She really understood all the territory, where we were going. We went to the beautiful Beatrix Potter property. It was all there.

Jacqueline
And actually, Donna, that's when you and I got to sit down. We were having a lovely chat at that point, and I found out a lot more. You don't talk to everyone all the time, do you?

Donna
No, exactly.

Jacqueline
It was nice to do that rather than feel like people had paired off. It was nice to be able to talk to different people and learn a bit more about them, why they were on the walk, and find out a bit more about their backgrounds. I genuinely feel we've got some really nice friendships after that. Anyone who was on that walk now, I can message and we can talk to. It's just really lovely, really lovely.

Donna
I agree. I agree entirely. I think the honesty between people and the friendship between people was incredible, quite quickly, and quite different from other things I've been involved in. I do think the key behind that was the fact that we were active, we were doing this walking, and that's what made the difference. I've been on all sorts of different things over my years, connected with fitness, connected with online work, and there was something very special about this. I think the real chemistry was being in such a beautiful location, and that walking and talking. Sometimes connections feel a bit superficial, but they didn't there. I think the age group helped as well. People felt comfortable, and no one felt they had to compete or perform in any way. It was very inspiring, because I learned a lot from the individuals there.

Lise
I read a line from something Julia Bradbury said, I was reading it this weekend. She's got a new book coming out in November, and she talked about awe-inspiring nature, that we need awe-inspiring nature for our wellbeing. And it is that view. You talked about sitting in the living room of Hassness House, which overlooks Buttermere. When you're up at the top of the hill you can see other lakes. You can see down the valley, and it fills your cup, doesn't it? It fills your soul.

And Donna, one of your specialities, that you talk about, is that we've kind of made wellbeing complicated.

Donna
Too complicated, yeah. Optimisation, I like to say. When we do wellbeing, it's something we have to do as opposed to something we enjoy or that's natural. Whereas the walk didn't feel like that. It didn't feel contrived at all. It wasn't another thing where I had to get my steps in or anything like that. It was very natural. I'm sure I got my steps in, and then some, unconsciously. But yeah, it was very natural, and it was connection, connection with nature but also connection with the other people there. We talked about it earlier, that it's important people get to see people doing things that look like them. And walking is for everybody. I think that's definitely so.

Lise
You said about getting your steps in, but you've also talked about not having a watch, haven't you, Donna, in the past. We got our steps in without even trying to.

Donna
Exactly. There you go.

Lise
Do you think, and it's a question to both of you really, I don't know whether it's an ageing thing, but do you think perhaps as women we start to rule ourselves out of things like that? We start to say, "That's not for me, I can't do it, I couldn't go on a walk, I couldn't go on something like that." I don't know.

Donna
I think we do if we listen to society, because society will tell you that at this age, this size, this gender, you shouldn't be able to do this. But I think there is a shift, and that's what I believe in. I say, let your body show you what you can do. Don't listen to anybody else. Give it a go, because you might surprise yourself, and that happens a lot.

Lise
What do you think, Jacqueline? You must see that all the time.

Jacqueline
Yeah, I absolutely do. I can definitely relate that to many things when I work with clients and when people connect with me online, particularly when it comes to strength training. Women very often totally underestimate how strong they can be, so it's really fabulous to see the journey many women can go on. And I could even do this myself. I was involved in something else at the beginning of the year, and I'd read the description. One of the things we had to do, we didn't have to do it, but it was a zip wire. My adult children were falling back laughing at this idea. They were like, "Mum, you're scared of heights, this is so out of your comfort zone." And I'm thinking, what am I going to do? When we got there, we all went up this tower thing to do the zip line. I'm thinking, I can back out at any point. I can back out at any point. But I knew I'd have to be one of the first, because if I was waiting at the bottom... After doing it, it was like, why did I think that? Do you know, the best thing was I got to the top and one of the leaders, loads of people check all your harnesses and everything, so there's another check finally when you're right at the top. The woman was a climbing leader and she was about my age group. She went, "I'd love to see you here. You're going to be absolutely fine. Tell me what to do." That was really good encouragement from a woman I saw as my peer, not in terms of climbing experience, but in terms of age group, saying, "I'd love to see you here." Because it was a group of much younger women on the whole. And I did it.

So I think we can all rule ourselves out of things. And again, it comes back to why representation is so important. When we see women of a similar age or older doing things, it changes our thinking. Instead of thinking that's impossible, we go, I mean, did you see the woman wing walking the other day in her 90s?

Donna
Yes! And I was like, what? Okay, I am not too old for anything. That was incredible.

Jacqueline
I did see it, exactly the one. On the top of a, I don't know, they called it a biplane or something like that. Standing. I don't even like being inside a plane, sitting down in a seat, but standing outside! That's why I think things like this are so amazing to see, because it helps us reframe ageing, reframe what we think about it and go, well, maybe I could do something like that, to a lesser degree. Like the walk we did. Hopefully that's shown women in midlife and older that they can go on a trip like this, be single, go as a solo traveller, be amongst strangers and actually still get so much out of it.

Donna
I also believe it's a cultural thing, because I went to Jamaica in December and, you know, their lifestyle is kind of different. They're still active, they're still riding their bike at 90, because that's the transportation they have, so the mindset is different. I had an aunt who was 80, looking after her goats, and that's the norm to them. It's not like we're constantly doing that here. You come to the West and it's like, we sit down and watch TV. Our lives are kind of different, so now we're having to change that mindset. Because I would say you can't tell someone's ability by looking at them, but some people do, and that's what puts people off as well.

I saw a survey today, it was a report, and they said representation is not decoration. It's also about whether, when somebody's there, they feel welcome. You can put a poster up and it shows an image there, but then I can go and I won't go back again. It's more than that. The more I do this work, the more I see that it's the language used to invite people in, and how they're made to feel when they get there, not just a picture of one person striking a pose. It can be like a tick-box exercise, but the weekend definitely wasn't that.

Jacqueline
I definitely agree with you on that. We don't want tokenism, do we? We don't want, "Now we think it's really good that we'll use an older woman doing this and that's going to attract people," but it doesn't mean anything if it's not actual, real inclusion. And I love what you just said about women in their 90s riding bicycles in Jamaica. We need more of that, but it's just not the same cultural norm here, is it?

Donna
But I do. That's why, sorry, at least the other day I was on a skateboard. I've had a skateboard since I was a child. It was a bit, it was loosely termed a skateboard. I don't know what somebody would call it. But the fact I got on it and balanced and did it, I'll do it again. So it's just showing that, to me, age is just a number. It can limit us or it can expand us, and sometimes we use that. So it's forgetting the age, doing what you want and not letting anything stop you. I think that's the real thing. I can say it like it's easy, but there are things that I don't do. The other day I was doing a backbend and my teacher said, "Don't go back, you can do it." You could see my body could do it, but my mind was stopping me. Then once I had the confidence, I did it. So sometimes it's limiting beliefs, but you need to believe in yourself and try something. It's better to try than not to try.

Speaker unclear
Well, I would definitely say, now I've just turned 50, but because I've spent the last 10 years trying something... I've got this little thing in my head, I want to try roller skating, and you've just reminded me. I'd forgotten it conveniently, and now it's come back again because I'm scared. But I feel like, at the moment, I'm the strongest and most comfortable in my body than I've ever been. I think there's a joy of this, getting a bit older, and the more women I... I don't hang out in groups enough, but this week I was up in Yorkshire with a group of women, Rachel Peru, and she was launching a new swimwear brand. I don't know how old Rachel is, but you know, glorious and glamorous. She became a model in her 40s or 50s, I think, and she's launching a swimwear brand. We're unstoppable. We've got loads within us. We've got loads more to come. And we only limit ourselves with this idea in our minds.

Jacqueline
I think that's why exploring these ideas about who can go where, when and how is really important. And I think that's why Donna's point about cultural differences is just so valid, because in other cultures and other areas of the world, older people are revered, respected and very much included in the life, in the lifestyle. We've got a lot to learn from other cultures as well. It's very much a Western thing that ageism around women exists, I think. We don't see that in other cultures in the same way. So we want this whole cultural shift. At the same time, we've got to tackle the idea that aesthetics are more important than function, which just literally drives me mad, because looking beautiful at 70 is not going to help you if you can't walk up the stairs by yourself.

Donna
That's why, when I shoot some yoga poses, there's one called chair pose, and I say, well, that means you can still go to the toilet on your own when you're 80, because you're getting up and down off the chair. And I say to anybody, please try to make sure you can get off the floor, because if anything happens, you'll want to. People I know stop doing things, they won't get on the floor because they're afraid to, but they can still learn. GPs are now referring patients to yoga. Someone will come with a walking stick and, after week three, they go in the chair, and they go in the aqua pool, and then eventually in week four they walk into the pool on their own. So they're getting that faith back in their body. They're getting stronger, they're getting more flexible, not only in their mind but in their body as well. That's the beauty of ageing. You're ageing for longevity, but not in terms of aesthetics, which is very much the focus in the West. I think it's about beauty and function.

Jacqueline
I just wrote down: posing isn't for yoga. It's not about posing, it's the poses, but it's not about posing.

Lise
Yeah. Walking This Way is really about women continuing to do things, trying things and taking up space as we age, wherever we are in our journey. So what I'd love to hear is what both of you would say to someone who's seen something she'd love to do but thinks, "I'm not fit enough, I'm not young enough, I'm not brave enough, or I wouldn't fit in and I don't belong." Let's start with you, Donna. What would you say to that woman who could see something, she's teetering on the edge, she really wants to give it a go, but somehow she feels she's limiting herself, it's not for her? Can you swear? You can swear.

Donna
I say, fuck it, then do it, basically. It's better to try and fail than not to try at all. You may surprise yourself, because you can do so much when you believe. And I see it so many times. I'll teach a yoga class and say, "Try this pose," and their bodies, they're going, "No," and then they're doing it. I look at them and say, "Look, you're doing it!" and they stun themselves. I also say, don't think, just do it, because you can think yourself out of it. And I also say that the body is an amazing tool. The body will show you what you can and can't do. It's the mind that you have to convince. And the mind is an amazing tool too, but the mind can be convinced that you can't do it, because someone says, "You can't do it, you can't do it," and your body's like, "I'm doing it." Just do it. Just, as I say, fuck it, just do it.

Life's about change. It's not about being static, and it's not all about being perfect. There are going to be bumps in the road, and we have to go around the bump, but there are ways in which we can achieve it. There are ways in which whatever we want to do can be adapted. Take the roller skating. I did the roller skating last year. I bought my roller skates and I loved it. I started after my friend said, "I'll show you," and I hurt my wrist, so I learned the lesson the hard way and went to a roller skating school. So I've got all the kit. Do it. If I didn't do the stuff I wanted to, I'd still be in a corporate job.

Lise
Yeah. I love it. Fuck it and do it. Do it anyway. And Jacqueline, what would you say?

Jacqueline
Well, nothing really happens if you stay in the comfort zone. Sometimes we've got to be comfortable with being a little bit uncomfortable. The mind gives out before the body will, which is so true. I put a reel up the other day about a deadlift. I was in my head about it. I managed to come back a week later and lift the weight. The only thing that changed, because nothing changes within a week, was how I was thinking about it, how I approached the bar. I think that would be my advice, really.

It's also drilling down to what it is, why you're apprehensive about it. Trying to unpack a bit of this, which is what we do with ageism. When we unpack, where do we get that idea from that we're too old, that we shouldn't wear that, that we shouldn't do that activity? Where does that idea come from? Is it something you inherently believe, or have you internalised ageism? Or if it's not around ageism, if it's around an activity, have we internalised the thought that that's not for me? Where does that thought come from? If we can unpick that a bit and go, well, so-and-so said that to me, or I saw that and it made me think that, or I had that experience in the past, and therefore I'm going to carry that with me for the rest of my life and assume everything like that I can't do. Sometimes it helps to go into it a little deeper, and then you can take Donna's approach.

But, you know, I come back to what I originally said: nothing good happens if we stay in the comfort zone. So sometimes it's just being prepared to be a bit vulnerable, a bit uncomfortable, and go, let's see what happens. It's okay to fail.

Lise
Yes. I think it's fine to give yourself a back-out as well, to say, "Do you know what, if I absolutely hate this, I'm going to go home, I'm going to get on a train." It's okay to think about an escape plan.

Jacqueline
Then, having that in place, you go, well, okay, I'm prepared for all eventualities now. I'm just going to suck it up and try it.

Donna
Yeah. And I would say, Lise, there's no such thing as failure, only feedback. You learn from it and you do something else. And also what I say to individuals is, look at it with a child's mind. A child doesn't fear. We don't start out in life walking. We're crawling, we're doing whatever. Then we take baby steps, and we fall and we get up, we fall, we get up, and then we walk. So apply that to whatever you're doing. We don't go from A to Z and be perfect. We have to go to B, C, D, and take those little steps, and we'll achieve it.

Lise
This is such an important conversation. I've absolutely loved it. I sort of knew you'd be a perfect combination of people with different opinions about the same thing: why we can all do it, why we can all join in, why we can all walk, why we can all move, and how glorious it is for us. Getting to meet you both and know you both on that walking weekend was an absolute pleasure for me, and I'm really grateful to you both for coming on the podcast today and exploring that with me. So thank you both. Thank you, Donna. And thank you, Jacqueline.

Donna and Jacqueline
You're very welcome. It's been lovely to be here. What a lovely chat. I can't believe it's gone so quickly. I've enjoyed it. We could have talked for longer, but there you go.

Lise
Thank you both so much. It's been a joy.

Lise (50:46)
Well, that's a wrap for this special Ramble Worldwide takeover episode of the Walking This Way podcast. A massive thanks to Donna and Jacqueline for joining me, and for 100% convincing me to get together with them for another walking adventure. So, Snowdon, here we come. And I know there'll be at least another 10 women who want to join us. As you'll know by now, I'm very proud to be an ambassador for Ramble Worldwide. Just last week, James and I lay in bed like an old couple, looking through the brand new brochure and deciding together what adventures we'd like to go on. Silk Road through Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan, anyone? Or maybe a cruise and snowshoeing adventure in the Arctic Circle. The world really is your oyster.

Don't forget you can get in touch with the show by leaving me a voice message or dropping me an email. The links are all in the show notes, as are all the links you need to find out more about Ramble Worldwide, Donna and Jacqueline.

But before you go, one last thing. Please tell everybody you know about this episode. Forward it on WhatsApp, pop it in your stories, or tell them about it next time you meet up for a stroll. It really, really helps. And of course, following the show wherever you listen really does make a difference. It's how the amazing stories and your amazing voices get heard. So follow the show, tell a friend, pass it on.

And as always, I am supremely grateful. I'll be back next week with another Out and About, and the week after that with another special guest. So have a great week, take care of yourselves, and remember, I love you rock stars.