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Welcome to The Anti-Racism Leadership Institute, where we engage in thoughtful conversations with professors and visionary leaders who are dedicated to dismantling racism in schools and transforming education. Join us as we explore their inspiring journeys, innovative strategies, and impactful initiatives aimed at creating more inclusive, equitable, and anti-racist learning environments. Our podcast is a platform for sharing insights, stories, and actionable ideas that can help shape a brighter, more just future for education. Tune in and be inspired to be a part of the change!
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:32:09
Speaker 1
Welcome to the Anti-Racism Leadership Institute podcast, where we ignite the sparks of change and inspire a world free of racism. This podcast is dedicated to highlighting the most cutting edge anti-racist research in education for the purpose of connecting practitioners to powerful, research based approaches to racial equity. I am your host, Doctor Tracy Benson, and today we invite you on a transformative journey as we delve into the efforts and triumphs of those dedicated fostering racial equity within education.
00:00:32:10 - 00:01:01:14
Speaker 1
Welcome to the Anti-Racism Leadership Institute Research to Practice podcast. Today we have the opportunity to talk with Doctor Freeman. Poor Khorshid, about her work with abolitionist teaching, Critical Resistance, the National Education for Liberation Network, and contributing author of Lessons and Liberation An Abolitionist Toolkit for K-12 educators. Doctor Freeman is an associate professor of education in the School of Education at the University of San Francisco.
00:01:01:16 - 00:01:27:14
Speaker 1
Her empirical and theoretical scholarship focuses on healing centered engagement, abolitionist teaching, critical professional development, grassroots teacher organizing, and ethics studies. Let's listen in. Doctor, poor Corky, thank you so much for joining me today. I really appreciate you accepting my invitation to have a conversation, about your work in which you do. But I'd like you to start off telling our listeners a little bit about who you are.
00:01:27:16 - 00:01:32:05
Speaker 1
And I do believe that you're from the Bay area, and you might still be there.
00:01:32:07 - 00:01:57:05
Speaker 2
Yeah, and I actually still live in the same house that I was born and raised in. So, yeah, it's a blessing. And also, you know, every some challenges. So I live in an intergenerational home. I still, you know, I take care of my mother. My mom has been disabled since I was in middle school. And have other elders here by niece and nephew also I co-parenting and help raise since birth.
00:01:57:06 - 00:02:12:06
Speaker 2
So we have a lot going on at this house. It's it's it's fun and also a reminder all the time of like why I do what I do, but I actually never thought I was going to be a teacher. That was never in my trajectory. I actually didn't even think I was going to go to college. I loved hair and makeup.
00:02:12:06 - 00:02:38:23
Speaker 2
I wanted to be a cosmetologist. And so, I think growing up I really struggled in school. Partly because, you know, the neighborhood that I grew up in, was very under invested, didn't really have a lot of resources. Education was low quality. And I struggled quite a bit because, you know, my father was murdered when I was, very young, right before I started kindergarten.
00:02:39:01 - 00:03:02:12
Speaker 2
And, we didn't really have resources for grief and understanding, you know, what was going on. And so I think because of that, I had a lot of trouble with self regulation, and it looked like me talking a lot and messing with people and, you know, just getting into things. And so I got in trouble a lot. And I think I just at an early age felt like school was not for me.
00:03:02:14 - 00:03:28:10
Speaker 2
And so I never took the SATs. I didn't do any of the stuff that you're supposed to do to get prepared for college. What happened was, my senior year, of high school. I was not going to graduate. I had to take additional classes to make up for credit. But I was part of a program where a, professor in my neighborhood, five minutes down the street, is where Cal State East Bay is.
00:03:28:12 - 00:03:47:07
Speaker 2
She came to recruit bilingual speaking students because there was a shortage of bilingual teachers in the state of California. And so, she had heard about me. And when she had came to me, I was like, oh, no, I don't have the grades for that, like, you don't want me. And she was like, no, actually, I think you're like the perfect person for this type of, profession, you know?
00:03:47:13 - 00:04:07:21
Speaker 2
And so, she just said, like, we'll pay for everything. You can start at community college, you'll have a mentor, you'll have all this support. The only, thing that you have to do is sign a contract saying that you'll maintain a three point. So I never had a 3.0. So that's. I was like, But when she said that they would pay for it, I was like, okay, this is my chance to try something new.
00:04:07:21 - 00:04:35:16
Speaker 2
And so, I accidentally became a teacher because of that. But, when I became a teacher, it was during the time of the huge budget crisis and education, specifically in California. So hundreds of teachers were being laid off, every year, the first three years of teaching. And so I was laid off every year. And then by the third year, after packing my class, that time I said, you know, I'm kind of done.
00:04:35:16 - 00:04:51:11
Speaker 2
I don't want to be a teacher anymore. I'm tired. I work so hard. Like I feel disposable. So not only am I going to leave the profession, I'm going to leave this country. And so I was like, I'ma go to the Caribbean coast of Nicaragua, where my family, you know, migrated from, and I'm gonna just be there for a couple of months and get my mind right.
00:04:51:11 - 00:05:12:11
Speaker 2
Maybe I'll volunteer. And so I began volunteering at the university in that small town. I had a cousin who was, like, doing some work there. And they asked me if I would help them build out a teacher credential program there. For teachers that were teaching English on the Caribbean coast. And so I stayed for two years living there.
00:05:12:15 - 00:05:32:16
Speaker 2
And then that's where I was like, I think I need to get my PhD. My cousin was like, if you like working with teachers, if this is of interest, like you should go that route. And so I pursued a PhD. But two months before I started the program, my, my brother died unexpectedly, and it was, three days after he had turned 25.
00:05:32:16 - 00:05:53:13
Speaker 2
So I left everything, and and I wasn't actually going to follow through with the PhD program because I was, as you can imagine, broken, you know, but I think that staying the course, the only way that I knew I could remain or be in this program was if I stayed a kindergarten teacher. So I went back to the classroom.
00:05:53:15 - 00:06:14:19
Speaker 2
So I was teaching kindergarten. I was in a PhD program, I was teaching undergrads. And I kind of in that realm realized, like, I need folks that will help me to understand what my purpose is because I no longer wanted to focus on language. That's what I was originally going to be focusing on. I needed like space to heal.
00:06:14:19 - 00:06:43:04
Speaker 2
And so because of my grassroots organizing work, with the teacher organization in the Bay area, I had proposed, I was like, can I start a healing group for teachers of color? And that's kind of what ended up being my dissertation on accident as well. And the only institution that I felt would actually understand, like, and value my work was the University of San Francisco.
00:06:43:06 - 00:07:06:01
Speaker 2
And so I didn't apply to anywhere else, for a job. I said, if I don't get this job, then I'm good with going back to the district. I'll get I'll do something around that. But I think the more that I continue to research my own experience alongside other teacher activists, through a healing circle kind of experience, I realize, oh my God, like this.
00:07:06:01 - 00:07:36:12
Speaker 2
I can see myself doing this for the long haul. I can see this as feeding two birds with one seed where I can have this role as a professor, supporting teachers, but also feeding myself and sustaining myself because I too need that space. So that's kind of like a quick, dirty way of like how I ended up, there, here is one, the killing birds, all these colonial phrases, you know, it's like why we got to be so violent, you know, let's feed the birds.
00:07:36:13 - 00:07:41:08
Speaker 2
We don't gotta kill them.
00:07:41:10 - 00:07:48:06
Speaker 1
I just love your rephrasing. The killing bird, the two stones is something that's more additive and more positive.
00:07:48:08 - 00:07:49:17
Speaker 2
Yeah.
00:07:49:18 - 00:08:13:21
Speaker 1
So when I think about healing centered education, I think about things such as social emotional learning, trauma, informed instruction, restorative justice. Can you tell me a little bit about how these aspects of that we sort of are leaning into these days are a part of us of healing centered in, education? Or are there now what does that look like under the umbrella of Healing Central education?
00:08:13:21 - 00:08:19:00
Speaker 1
Is it similar to all these SEO and trauma informed education, or is it or is it different?
00:08:19:02 - 00:08:43:03
Speaker 2
Yeah, I think I think these are parts of the tools that we use for healing centered work. Right? Is like it's not necessarily, not use like when I think about even trauma informed care, trauma informed approaches like we need that, but we can't stop there. And so one of my mentors is, Doctor Shan. Jen Wright and I got to work with him over more than a decade.
00:08:43:03 - 00:09:05:07
Speaker 2
And I think what's been helpful, in doing the work with him, is just understand that, like, sure, we can continue to deal with the symptoms. We have to do that work. The symptoms are really important because students and teachers alike are suffering. But if we don't start dealing with the root causes, then we're just going to continue doing systems focused work or symptoms focused work, you know?
00:09:05:12 - 00:09:33:06
Speaker 2
And so for me, healing centered engagement is about dealing with the root causes. It's about healing, at multiple levels. It's healing at the individual level. How have I, for Rima been socialized in a society that has been harmful because it's been shaped by racism, sexism, white supremacy, all the things, right. How have those ideologies, become psychologically ingrained within me as deficits about who I am and where I come from?
00:09:33:06 - 00:09:56:23
Speaker 2
Right. So there's that, like, individual kind of healing that I need to do of unlearning and, and loving on myself. Right. And all the ways that schooling told me I shouldn't or that there wasn't space for me to love myself. But then there's the interpersonal focus, the relational healing of like, what does it mean for us to understand how to heal our relationships to people?
00:09:57:01 - 00:10:29:12
Speaker 2
How have I been socialized to want to have power over people versus power with people? How have I experienced, the perversion of domination in my relationships, whether it is adult ism, right. Whether it is, you know, the teacher, student relationship, daughter mother relationship, like, all of these things have been tainted by the perversion of power. And if we're not careful, we kind of replicate, those patterns of domination and oppression in our most intimate relationships.
00:10:29:12 - 00:11:03:18
Speaker 2
Right? But then it's also about institutional healing. We have got to look at the policies and the practices and the values that shape institutions to continue to replicate that oppression. Right. And to continue. And oftentimes we take it as just like common sense ways of education, for example, or how schools, you know, should be run. But undergirding these policies are ways of being in school have always been the legacies of colonialism, because school, since the inception, were never actually designed to teach and to liberate.
00:11:03:18 - 00:11:32:20
Speaker 2
They were always designed to oppress and to, assimilate, basically. Right. And so then what has to be undone? How do we revisit, institutional practices and policies with the healing centered lens to ask ourselves, well, does this actually exacerbate harm? Does it cause more harm, or does it actually, address and heal, and repair some of the ways that these policies have caused harm to communities?
00:11:32:20 - 00:11:33:06
Speaker 2
Right.
00:11:33:06 - 00:11:50:07
Speaker 1
Oh, thank you so much for that clarification and explanation. Can you give us a, like a calm, concrete example? Because I know that you have a, have a history in teaching kindergarten, like I started as a pre-K teacher. And I want to sort of understand how that applies in a setting, in a classroom, in a kindergarten setting.
00:11:50:07 - 00:11:53:18
Speaker 1
So could you give us an example?
00:11:53:20 - 00:12:29:23
Speaker 2
Yeah. So if we want to talk kindergarten, I loved teaching kindergarten for several years. But I had to ask myself some questions. Right. And I think the reason why I was even able to do that was because I had a lot of trauma in kindergarten. It was my first experience in school after my dad was killed. And so for me, I have vivid and visceral like memories of how my teacher did not care for me, and there were preventable things that could have allowed for me to actually heal.
00:12:29:23 - 00:12:48:17
Speaker 2
So, for example, and I kind of mentioned this in my TEDx talk, rather than punishing me for not following the rules, why not come and build a relationship with me and ask me what's going on? Why do you not like this rule? How can I support you? And you know, navigating this moment or whatever the case is? Right?
00:12:48:17 - 00:13:10:09
Speaker 2
And so I think, how do I systematize care intentionally in my classroom in a way that is part and parcel of the culture that I want to build in this space. So, for example, every morning we would have Morning Circle and the prompt was always the same. How are you feeling today and why? One Because I'm scaffolding writing and reading.
00:13:10:13 - 00:13:32:18
Speaker 2
I of course I'm going to do all the teacher things. The question is there. I'm using 1 to 1 correspondence. I'm reading along with the students, you know, as they memorize these things, because many of them come in, some not knowing the difference between a letter and a number. Others are reading, you know, well, right. And so how do I create practices that meet students where they are?
00:13:32:19 - 00:13:56:22
Speaker 2
Everyone can say how they're feeling and why, and then we're going to go off and write in our journals and share exactly what we shared with our classmates. Sometimes it looks like students just scribble scrabbling, but I bet if I walk over to that, students say, tell me what you wrote here. They know exactly what they wrote and they will tell you the sentence, even though it's not formulated in the colonial English format, that I'm trying to teach them to have access to.
00:13:56:22 - 00:14:19:08
Speaker 2
Right. And so I think that's one piece is like acknowledging that before I can teach you, I need to know what you need. And as an adult woman who was socialized as a teacher, it was kind of the norm for teachers not to have needs because we're supposed to be martyrs and it's only about student needs. So I also had to model for students.
00:14:19:10 - 00:14:38:20
Speaker 2
I'm going to say what I need today to today. You know, Miss Barrymore's head is really hurting so loud noises can make it hurt even more. Is it possible for us to take care of each other today and take care of me by maybe being mindful of our voices, as opposed to be quiet? And I'm changing your color right?
00:14:38:20 - 00:15:00:14
Speaker 2
I had to take a step back to actually see these young people, as, you know, people who are thoughtful human beings that just need to understand than what it looks like to care for me. And I need to learn how to communicate that as a grown adult. Right. And so I think that's like one piece of how it can manifest in the classroom.
00:15:00:14 - 00:15:31:10
Speaker 2
I think other ways that manifest is really thinking about how am I actually supporting students and to normalize conflict, as opposed to punishing conflict and having a good or bad binary. Actually, conflict is very healthy and normal and can be generative when we build a culture of working through conflict. And so what I realized as a kindergarten teacher is if I don't address this head on, what's going to happen is I'm going to continue to get teacher.
00:15:31:14 - 00:15:56:11
Speaker 2
He did this teacher, you know, and now all of a sudden, I am the ruler of who is going to be punished and who's not. And that one is not sustainable. Two is not desirable. What are the human beings that I want to leave out of my classroom every day? Do I want them to be dependent on calling on a state actor to navigate their conflict and to eventually, you know, and in some sort of punishment?
00:15:56:13 - 00:16:25:06
Speaker 2
Not really. So what is the world that I'm trying to create, starting with the babies that are in my classroom now by saying, actually, there's a way that we can use our words and name our needs and boundaries when someone has crossed them. Let's practice that. Let's use puppets, let's role play. Let's actually, if I'm noticing that there's a consistent conflict that keeps happening in my classroom, how am I supporting students to actually be in practice of addressing it with agency?
00:16:25:08 - 00:16:56:14
Speaker 2
So it's things like that where it seems like it's not that big of a deal, but it's actually huge, because repeated practice of building that muscle allows students to then build the habit of addressing their conflict in a way that I think does not always rely on punishment. Right. And it does. Like I don't want to sit here and say that it's easy because it's not it requires a commitment and rigorous like attention and care.
00:16:56:16 - 00:17:18:01
Speaker 2
But I think about one of my my dear friends, Carlos Allaby, who talks about like, actually your classroom management is curriculum for young people. They are learning how to, you know, to move through, difficulties, how to care for each other, how, how to like, resolve conflicts through the ways that you model how you're going to resolve it in the classroom.
00:17:18:01 - 00:17:21:02
Speaker 2
Right. And so it actually is curriculum and it should be taught.
00:17:21:02 - 00:17:36:16
Speaker 1
we spend some time talking about what it looks like for a teacher to engage in a healing centered education kit. You, give us some insight on what it means for the leader. What does a leader need to do themselves in order to support this type of practice amongst teachers in their classrooms?
00:17:36:18 - 00:18:05:18
Speaker 2
Yeah, I think there's so many things that come up for me around that. Right? Because I do think that leaders have a huge, huge responsibility to engage in self work. And oftentimes that has been what the leaders, particularly people like in roles of like being a principal or deans or whatever, like, when you lack self-awareness and when you lack, that inner work, it shows in your leadership.
00:18:05:18 - 00:18:27:13
Speaker 2
And so you we were talking about this earlier, right? You said some people can talk the talk. They got the theory down, but it doesn't translate. And I think that that is often the case when you have overburdened and overworked leaders who don't make the space and time to sit with how these forms of oppression show up in their own leadership.
00:18:27:15 - 00:18:48:21
Speaker 2
Am I moving from top down kinds of models of leadership? Am I when I have to go and give someone feedback? What is my relationship to that person as I give them feedback? Have I taken time to like, you know, really get to know this person where they are, what's happening in their lives? Am I humanizing? How do I know that?
00:18:48:22 - 00:19:10:02
Speaker 2
What what's the evidence of that? Because I do think that, like, oftentimes leaders may think that they are doing all the things they got the checklists and I'm doing exactly what this framework said. But you go down the hall and you ask the person that's working under them, and they may have a completely different experience on how that translate into their interactions with this leader.
00:19:10:02 - 00:19:37:17
Speaker 2
Right. So I would say first step is actually doing your own inner work. Are you in therapy? If you're not in therapy, are you doing any kind of like self-reflective kinds of work to constantly hold yourself accountable? Because the reality is, no one can hold you accountable? Like you, Mia Mingus talks about this like you have to do the hard job of self evaluating and holding yourself accountable to the things that you say you value.
00:19:37:19 - 00:20:05:22
Speaker 2
How does that show up? So that's one I think that that's huge and that's foundation. It's like, what are my practices of deeper self-reflection and of self accountability on on making sure that my values are in and in alignment with how I show up in my relationships and my leadership, in my decision making. And then I guess the other thing that I would say is like having intentional time and space to think about repair.
00:20:06:00 - 00:20:30:20
Speaker 2
If you are a leader and you know that you are in a role that has historically been one that, facilitates kind of the, normalization of the oppressive kind of society or ways of being that we know to be true. Like, I even think about the idea of like professionalization to be professional is really kind of like another word for colonial.
00:20:30:21 - 00:20:54:06
Speaker 2
Like, have you adopted colonial norms and ways of being that strip you of your humanity, but that elevate you in your efficiency and in your. Do you get what I mean? It's like, how am I doing the work to repair for the ways that I have been socialized to lead from a top down framework, from a colonial framework?
00:20:54:08 - 00:21:23:21
Speaker 2
And what would it look like to do it differently? Can I try these things out? Let's start with just for example, I talk about this example often is, when we're thinking about school policy, is there are some things that we cannot, you know, help. For example, when we're thinking about a student that is tardy too many times, structure really and systemically so many times will literally put a parent in jail, literally.
00:21:23:21 - 00:21:52:10
Speaker 2
Right. Like that is the policy. There are schools, including the one that I went to when I was younger, where if you were late, the teacher would lock you out even if it was just one minute late, slammed the door in your face, lock you out, and then we are all herded into a huge, you know, cafeteria where we have to just sit there and, like, not learn if this is the policy that has always been in place, then my responsibility is to say, okay, how can I do this differently?
00:21:52:14 - 00:22:12:10
Speaker 2
What are my options? What is possible? I do this activity when I work with teachers. It's called moving from problem to possibility. This is also from the healing centered engagement framework, that I've done with like, you know, Jen. Right. And others. But it's like I have to sit with a partner. So if I'm sitting in front of you, I'm going to tell you what a problem is.
00:22:12:12 - 00:22:37:12
Speaker 2
Let's say one of my problems is that I have a student who repeatedly, like, is disrespectful in classes, calling me names as the teacher, let's say, is has no self-control. And I'm just I can't do it anymore. And so then now we're going to go into a process, I'm going to set the timer. And for two minutes you as my partner is going to ask me, well, what is possible to move from this problem to possibility.
00:22:37:14 - 00:22:42:22
Speaker 2
And so then you will ask me, go ahead and ask me what is possible.
00:22:43:00 - 00:23:06:02
Speaker 2
Well, I guess I can maybe sit down with this student once all the class is gone and maybe, try to build a relationship with this student after school and then you would ask me again what else is possible? Maybe I can actually take time at recess to play with this student and to actually, like, have a relationship beyond just me teaching.
00:23:06:02 - 00:23:38:13
Speaker 2
Maybe it can be playing. And then you could ask me again, you know what else is possible? Maybe I can meet with the family and talk about, well, what's working at home that maybe I can use in the classroom. And so you go into this repeated process of asking yourself what else is possible, and then that moves you from the ways we've been socialized to think of a solution to, an issue like this, to actually going deeper into creativity, humanizing approaches, doing things that maybe I wouldn't have thought about if you didn't ask me ten times what else is possible.
00:23:38:13 - 00:23:48:03
Speaker 2
Right. So it requires, I think, a practice of pushing and stretching ourselves to think beyond the ways that we have been trained to lead.
00:23:48:07 - 00:24:10:16
Speaker 1
I agree that, you know, the way in which you describe a leader and their role in supporting healing centered education is, it's very important about how they how they reflective in their own leadership to support the environment in their school building. And, you know, we still have to adhere to certain rules and regulations, in terms of compulsory education, students have to come to school on time and go to class and learn.
00:24:10:16 - 00:24:26:23
Speaker 1
We have standards and curriculum. And so how do we uphold you know, rules within the school building? To make sure that students get to get to school on time and also be reflective and understanding when, a child can't meet the expectation.
00:24:27:01 - 00:24:55:15
Speaker 2
But even with that example that we're talking about, right. It's like, how do I punish a kindergartner, for example, for not getting into school on time? That is beyond what they their responsibility. Right. So then I have to ask deeper questions of like, what's going on with the family? What kind of support do they need? And then you come to find out and discover, oh my God, this family is like really struggling with Houselessness right now and the shelter that they are currently at is very far from the bus stop.
00:24:55:15 - 00:25:18:21
Speaker 2
And if they miss that. But and so then you get a story to understand why this quote unquote violation continues to happen. And then it shifts my why of my solution to that issue. Right. Maybe the solution is to now think about, can I get this young person to be part of a group, that goes to the bus together and hold each other accountable?
00:25:18:21 - 00:25:42:15
Speaker 2
Can I system it? You know, it, it offers a pathway for different solutions that are not rooted in in punishment, because punishment is not actually going to address the fact that this young person is in a shelter that is far from the bus stop, that like it actually does nothing other than criminalizing young people or young person for not having, their conditions better.
00:25:42:17 - 00:25:44:14
Speaker 2
You know.
00:25:44:16 - 00:26:12:03
Speaker 1
So within in the healing centered approach, how can leaders open up the space to be more co constructed along with teachers in the part from the hierarchy? In terms of the position we're often put in as evaluators, as folks who need to drive forward as instructional leaders, how we move from that paradigm to more of a co construction paradigm, to really bring teachers in and involve them in making a healing centered space that is akin to what their strengths are.
00:26:12:05 - 00:26:40:08
Speaker 2
Yeah, I really like that question, because I do think that part of it is making the intentional time and space to get to know who you're working with and what their passions are, and what their skill sets are, and what their strengths are, and utilizing them to be co leaders with you. That to me is a very healing centered approach, because what you're doing is you're redistributing power in a way that feels in alignment to teachers passion.
00:26:40:08 - 00:27:01:17
Speaker 2
So let's say, for example, if I was under the leadership of a principal that did that with me and met with me, I might tell this, principal, actually, I'm doing already like a lot of organizing work to help teachers understand the school prison nexus. And to understand abolitionist teaching. I'm doing that already in grassroots spaces. And then that leader might say dope.
00:27:01:17 - 00:27:32:14
Speaker 2
Would you be open to facilitating a workshop for our teachers? And maybe I can get you an additional stipend to support that effort. You know, that is a very different way to show teachers that you respect them, value what they bring, and you also are giving them the opportunity to reestablish themselves as a colleague with other colleagues in a way that is rooted in, shared like knowledge building and co construction of learning.
00:27:32:16 - 00:27:51:02
Speaker 2
In response to the dynamic that you just named where you were like, as a leader, I don't want to just sit there, bring y'all together and talk at you for all this time, right? That's a different model than of professional development. Is that actually, I'm saying I respect you all as professionals to co-lead this space and co construct this space who feels like they would want to take that up?
00:27:51:06 - 00:28:07:09
Speaker 2
There may be a teacher who's like, absolutely not. That is not my skill set. But you know, it is. My skill set is rethinking how we're doing. You know, let's say recess duty. It's problematic. There's been conflict. And I took this class and I took. And so then now. Okay, dope. It sounds like we can create a committee.
00:28:07:09 - 00:28:38:05
Speaker 2
And so it's like how do I have the kind of bird's eye view of and mapping, almost like asset mapping of the people that I am leading to know. Where will their expertise and their strengths best be utilized and supported in this space, so that it does feel like there is a shared sense of leadership in this space that already starts to eliminate that hierarchy in a different kind of way.
00:28:38:05 - 00:29:01:19
Speaker 2
Sure, you still have to engage the hierarchy because of the district and all these mandates and whatever else. But there's a way that you're shifting the culture there. By by making moves like that. I think the other piece is like actually systematizing and building in what it looks like to humanize ourselves when we are together. What are the check ins that I do?
00:29:01:23 - 00:29:23:20
Speaker 2
What are the ways that I'm bringing in joy if I take inventory of how many times I place joy on the agendas for our meetings, will it be a sad number, or will it actually show that this is a value of mine? That in order to sustain teachers, I need to make sure that I am building joy into the agenda.
00:29:23:22 - 00:29:42:12
Speaker 2
I need to make sure that I'm building in self-care, care and breaks and whatever. Right? Like how do my values as a leader show up in the agendas? How does it show up in my decision making? Like how am I taking inventory of like that kind of values, alignment across the board?
00:29:42:14 - 00:30:04:15
Speaker 1
Well, I remember a time when when I was a pencil principal, this was many, many years ago. That was very difficult, especially as a young, you know, black male principal to depart from what I had learned from what I had seen, what teachers expect of me, at least what I perceived they expect of me, and to really depart friend, to take on a different way and often when I did it, just stray a little bit outside the lines of the norm.
00:30:04:20 - 00:30:18:13
Speaker 1
I found that I received immense pushback from teachers that wanted things a certain way. And so how, you know, do we release ourselves from that? I think internal pressure to be a principal, as you know, we envision a principal should be.
00:30:18:15 - 00:30:39:08
Speaker 2
I think you're saying here is key, though, because I think part of when I talk about this work around abolition is like, how have we been? How have we been socialized as leaders to police ourselves and to police other people? And what I mean by that is like, how much am I being authentic to who I am when I'm in a room full of teachers?
00:30:39:10 - 00:31:04:13
Speaker 2
And if I if I don't feel like I'm really being myself, then where are the parts of myself that are policing like my individual quality and my approaches or personality? Because I've been told that that is not professional? Who taught me that? What are the voices that exist in my head? Because oftentimes they are very real voices. At one point in our career, we did hear that voice.
00:31:04:15 - 00:31:26:16
Speaker 2
Are they here now, though? Let me be in the present. Do I need to ascribe to that voice from three years ago, when this white leader told me that me wearing this shirt is unprofessional? Do I care, right? Like, these are the things that take that self-reflective work and, negotiation of like, what have I been told and how have I been socialized?
00:31:26:18 - 00:32:05:01
Speaker 2
And now what do I believe? And how do I want to negotiate these narratives? And the thing is, you won't be rewarded for it all the time. And that's the thing that sets you're rewarded for the ways that you're able to contain, to surveil, to, you know, be like, you're rewarded for that because that's efficient. And so I think it also requires us to be brave and to be courageous and to be okay with recognizing that when you do try to change these norms, when you do try to move in this direction, you're you're situated in a profession that is predominantly white and shaped by white supremacy culture.
00:32:05:01 - 00:32:34:02
Speaker 2
So you are going to be met with people telling you you don't know how to do your job. What you're doing is not productive. It's actually causing harm. Like there's all these things that you have to already prepare yourself for because not everybody is going to understand the vision. So then my job is to help you to continue to understand the vision and the values work in order for you to see where the connection is, as opposed to a disconnect, because this is not how we did it before.
00:32:34:04 - 00:32:36:22
Speaker 2
You know.
00:32:37:00 - 00:32:59:01
Speaker 1
You know, remember back when I was a principal, there are times in which I thought I was leaning in to more of the in, you know, abolitionist leadership and abolitionist teaching and, and really trying to be countercultural to the ways in which, you know, we contemporary ran schools, especially in terms of discipline. And even though some teachers I felt were on board, they would often lose their way and not really understand why we're doing what we're doing.
00:32:59:01 - 00:33:23:19
Speaker 1
And I had always come back to framing it from sort of a central understanding, essential understanding of a problem, a practice that had to come back to not just one day to day, but ten days in 20 days in, you know, five months in to come back to really remind folks, you know, as we're doing this countercultural work, to frame it in a way that they understand that it's still under the umbrella of what we're intended to do differently for our students.
00:33:23:21 - 00:33:48:18
Speaker 2
Yeah. I think it's such a great question, because I do think framing matters so much. And so anything that I ever do specifically because, you know, I'm in teacher education. And so I have to be very clear on framing with every single thing that I do, because I don't want to take for granted that teachers already understand what colonization looks like and what it means.
00:33:48:20 - 00:34:10:07
Speaker 2
And so with that said, I think that like even little things like, you know, when we come into the classroom, one of my classroom rituals is we always do, a mindful breathing grounding. And they immediately go into journaling. How am I feeling right now and what do I need? I give them a list of universal needs that they can choose from.
00:34:10:09 - 00:34:42:03
Speaker 2
And then I explain, this is my commitment. I want you to all understand that part of colonization is about controlling our minds, bodies, and spirits and helping us or pushing us to believe that we are only as worthy as our production. That's part of colonization. Think about the theft of land, enslavement. Where did we learn that it was not okay to take a moment to check in with ourselves, to breathe, to drink water, to go to the bathroom?
00:34:42:08 - 00:35:01:09
Speaker 2
It's literally in the fabric of schooling. There are times of the day that you're allowed to go alleviate yourself in the bathroom. How does that make any sense? Right? So in this space, I'm going to decolonize how we do class. And one of the ways I'm going to decolonize how we do class is we're not starting with just business as usual.
00:35:01:12 - 00:35:22:04
Speaker 2
We're starting with checking in with ourselves, with taking a breath, asking, what do we need? We're going to come back as a whole group. We're going to share. How can I support as your facilitator in this space on meeting some of those needs? What can that look like? Let's negotiate breaks. Let's talk about what time we leave. Let's let's co construct that together as a decolonial practice.
00:35:22:07 - 00:35:44:22
Speaker 2
Because I'm not going to be that this is not going to be a top down. I'm not your master. Even down to how we talk about master teachers. I don't like that language. Let's talk about why. What is the history behind that? Right. So even if it's these small teachable moments, framing always matters. And if they don't have access to understanding why, then it gives room.
00:35:44:22 - 00:36:07:07
Speaker 2
And I had to learn that my first two years as a professor, because I looked at the evaluations and I'm like, Becky, what are you talking about? Right? But I realized then that, oh my God, it's because she doesn't get it. Oh, duh, I need to actually take more time to frame everything that I do and why I do it.
00:36:07:07 - 00:36:26:18
Speaker 2
So even when you give the example of grading, I then have to talk about, well, what is the history of eugenics? What is the history of standardized testing? Who profits from grades and who you know, how do we have conversations about tracking? So then that way there's an understanding that I'm not doing this just because I don't want to read your work and give you a grade.
00:36:26:18 - 00:36:49:21
Speaker 2
I'm doing it because I want you to see this is a decolonial practice of reclaiming what it means to value my knowledge production, that it's not up to this outside person or outside assessor. Y'all already got to do this for the TPA and all these other standardized tests. I'm not going to re inscribe that. And so I think the more that I've done that it shows up now in evaluations of like, oh my god.
00:36:49:21 - 00:37:11:20
Speaker 2
Like I didn't even realize that I was thinking A's. And I hope that it can be a continued practice of asking, you know, I just always ask, like, where did you learn that? When was the first time that you learned that? Where do you think it came from? Is that even resonant for your cultural background? If it is, then let's talk about that.
00:37:11:22 - 00:37:31:10
Speaker 2
What part of our cultures have been colonize? Because I even give the example of like, you know, my, my mother, all the side of my mothers, you know, family is Caribbean, but they were colonized by the British. And so even how they understand schooling is shaped by British colonization. All of us got to do this work, you know.
00:37:31:11 - 00:37:50:22
Speaker 1
This has been an absolutely awesome conversation. I really appreciate you sort of taking me to school that healing centered education. And for our listeners, if folks want to read more, follow you, follow your work. Get more of Doctor Freeman. Poor course she'd work. They find you? Where can they find your most contemporary work in what you're doing?
00:37:50:23 - 00:38:10:17
Speaker 2
I am more active on Instagram. To be honest. I have too many elders on Facebook. I don't really, I don't I don't share too much on there. So Instagram would be best that I usually send, or share like fliers to talks that I'm doing. And I also have a link tree in my Instagram as well. And if you search at doctor.
00:38:10:17 - 00:38:29:01
Speaker 2
So Dr. Dot for Rima with an underscore, you can find me on Instagram. And then of course if you Google me, there's, you know, usually events I'm going to be doing, an event in Nebraska in a couple of weeks for teachers of color. Any anything that I'm ever doing, I usually share on social media.
00:38:30:18 - 00:38:58:12
Speaker 1
Thank you for tuning in to this episode of the Anti-Racism Leadership Institute podcast. Remember, the fight against racism starts with each and every one of us. Together, we can create inclusive environments in our schools that celebrate diversity and empower all students. For more information, visit our website at. Anti-Racism institute.com. And subscribe to our channel. Join us next time as we continue to shine a light on the champions of change.
00:38:58:14 - 00:39:06:16
Speaker 1
Stay inspired, committed and let's make a difference together.