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Manhood often feels like navigating through uncharted territory, but you don't have to walk alone. Join us as we guide a conversation about how to live intentionally so that we can join God in reclaiming the masculine restorative presence he designed us to live out. Laugh, cry, and wonder with us as we explore the ins and outs of manhood together.
Jesse French
Hey guys, welcome to another episode of the Restorative Man podcast. My name is Jesse French and I am your host for today's conversation. And friends, I'm always excited and look forward to these conversations. And today is particularly important and one that I am looking forward to because I get to have my colleague, my friend, and my fellow what is the right way to put this?
Jeremy Williamson
No you
Jesse French
No,
I'm going a different way. Okay. My fellow mischief maker Jeremy Way. Look at that. See, you didn't know that was he didn't know I was going there.
Jeremy Williamson
you
were going to I thought it was gonna be about wrestling, Jesse and I know
Jesse French
you're too fragile for that right now in wake of the last the last match, so I just didn't wanna rattle you before we jump.
Jeremy Williamson
That's guys don't believe him. But you know what? Thank you, Jesse. And I will take fellow mischief maker all day long.
Jesse French
I love
it. I love it. I think we are indeed co-conspirators in that space. So I like it. as some of you guys know, some of you don't. Jeremy Williamson, as I just said, is one of my colleagues. He's on staff with Restoration Project. And really excited today because we get to explore some work that Jeremy has been doing and creating that has been a bunch of years in the making and is at the unique place of that work coming into the world in the form of a book.
And so, man, so excited that this conversation is here, that we find ourselves at this point where we can celebrate and spread the word about the book that you have written. And so thrilled about that. So many different kind of rabbit trail pieces of your work and what it's meant and all that that we could explore and just excited that we get the chance to do that here today.
Jeremy Williamson
man, thanks, Jesse. And like I said, it's so good to be here. And yeah, I'm pretty passionate about this. I'm looking forward to our conversation.
Jesse French
Me too. Well, let's jump in. Jeremy, I w maybe we can just start with give us a little sense of how we got to this really fun and exciting piece of the calendar where your book is coming into the world here in just a couple of days on November fifth. How did we get here? I know it's been a process and would love to just hear about some of what that on ramp has held for you in the last weeks, months, years even.
Jeremy Williamson
Yeah, the the the process of this book it does go back a really, really long ways. And it starts, I think, in me and in my in my own story, Jesse. I in my own both my wounding and processing of those wounds, my wounding and my healing. And I think I learned some stuff about myself and my own journey, both in the way that God has made me in particular and the way the evil has come for me in particular, that as I
Began to find healing in myself and then began to sit with other men and women as a story work coach. And through my work with Restoration Project, I started to realize my gosh, this isn't just my story. this is this is maybe actually the story of humanity, of all of mankind, and the way that evil is universally coming against us. And so I just got tired of sitting with dozens and dozens and dozens of people who are stuck and
wounded and hopeless and they've been trying everything they can to get free from whatever and can't find their way out and just felt like I have something to say about that. So it's been a fun, long journey for sure. Yeah.
Jesse French
I love that you said that because I think the books that I love and I think that carry so so much weight in good ways are the ones that weave the personal in a way that also highlights the universal, right? And that there's something around the particularity of someone's own journey and their own story in a way that is unique and that also as it's unpacked, the reader is like, yeah, just what you said, like this is actually the story of humanity.
And so I love that you said that. And I'm excited because I think that's true of your book. because it does step into that. And so you talk about realizing, man, hey, people are finding themselves stuck. You had a sense of just I think that stuckness of like reaching a place of wanting more yet unsure of how that would happen. Continue to to unpack that, especially as it relates to the book. The book is called That's Not My Name.
Which will I'm excited to even jump into that more. But continue to unpack that process. So you in your own life and these people that you're sitting with are recognizing this arrival at this stuck place, desire for freedom. Where from there? Cause I think that's true. And how does the book and your invitation continue from that place?
Jeremy Williamson
Well, what I hope people see pretty quickly, Jesse, is and what I needed to see in my own life, is that they're living their life based on a lie. That their whole life is being written around a lie, built around something that's not even true.
Jesse French
That's a massive statement. Massive statement.
Jeremy Williamson
Yeah,
to look at someone and be like, Hey, do you realize you're living a lie? But come on, here's the thing. And this is what I get passionate about. Like, if some of the things that we struggle with in the realm of relationships and love and our bodies, whether that is food or sex or emotions or the ways that we get stuck, if discipline could fix it, if some amount of prayer, or just like trying really hard or going through a program or reading a book, getting some information.
If it could fix it, it would have. It would have. And so I sit with so many people who start to feel hopeless because they're stuck in whatever brokenness in their relationships or their emotions or habits hang ups. And they've tried everything and they start to feel hopeless. And so I actually think it's really good news when people stop and realize, hey, the reason why you can't get over this is because you are on the wrong, like you're not even in the right part of the forest. Like that
You're living a lie. We need to come back over here and be honest about what is actually true about who you are and and who you think you are. There's freedom in that, but it it really does start with acknowledging. So
Jesse French
So, I just said, that is a massive statement. And I would imagine that some people hear that and have the question run through their minds of, like, what do you mean, Jeremy? I know. You know, like I I'm not living this double life. I'm not this, you know, secret spy agent, you know, at night. Like, I'm not doing that. My life is not a lie. What do you mean by that? Like, continue to put some more meat on that bone because I think it's true. And it is a big old statement.
Jeremy Williamson
Yeah. What I mean by that, Jesse, is somewhere along the way in our lives, we were told who we are or who we need to be. We were named by someone. And so if we imagine like we came into the world designed by God, imagined by him, he's known us, he's known about us for thousands of years. The Bible says before the foundations of the world were laid, he knew us. He knit us together in our mother's womb. And it
When he did that, it's not like God was like, hmm, in that very moment, I think I wonder who I'm gonna make as this little zygote is growing in Jesse's mom's womb. No, he's like, finally, it's time to bring Jesse into the world. I have been waiting for this man for thousands of years, and it's his turn now. I already know who I'm gonna make. So we come into the world with all of this purpose and the intentionality of God and
Then we are placed in the hands of humans who see us and then respond to what they see in us in different ways. And so, Jesse, when you were born, when I was born, I didn't know who I was. I had no idea. Right. I maybe had a sense that like I could do certain things. I maybe hoped that I might be somebody, but what I needed was people to look at me and tell me who I am. I came into the world looking for the people who would tell me.
Who I am and whether I'm worthy of love. Well, there's not a human alive who has received an accurate response to that question, unfortunately. Ideally, people see us, they recognize the image of God and the shaping of God, and then they name us appropriately. But when I say we've believed a lie, what I mean is we were lied to about who we are, sometimes directly.
And just go right for it. Some of you were told that you're a piece of crap. Some of you were told that you are worthless. And maybe you were those words were actually spoken over you, or maybe that's just what you picked up on as you very keenly observed your family. And some of you observed like that you're the golden boy and you're perfect and you always have to be, or you're the stud athlete, or you're the like these identities were imposed on us. Mama's boy.
the pastor of the family, the screw up, or the insignificant, invisible kid. These things were imposed on us. We came to believe them. And that's what I mean when your whole life has been built around a lie. Once you believe who you are, then you start to survive that and live that out and flesh it out like that's who you become.
Jesse French
This is what I need to do.
Jeremy Williamson
And so how actually terrifying I think for some people to stop and think, my gosh, I'm 50 years old or I'm 40 years old. And I have built my whole life around something that's not even true. I think, Jesse, that's terrifying, but I think we have to be honest.
Jesse French
Yeah. Which it feels like then the arrival at the place of I'm stuck, I don't have hope, I'm wanting more, but don't feel like that's accessible. It seems like to arrive then at that point, while incredibly uncomfortable and painful, is actually a really important place to be. Right? Like it feels like there's some of the opportunity then for people
as they're in that space that they are now being able to name and to engage the lie that they have lived in, like they're having to grapple with that.
Jeremy Williamson
Mm-hmm. Jesse, this is what happened in my life. I didn't understand anything. I knew that there was a lot of stuff that felt hard in my life and some of it that fell out of my control. Like, for example, early on in our marriage, my wife would say she felt really distant from me, like I was unreachable. She was watching me pastor church and be all this great guy to all of these people in our congregation, but she felt really neglected by me and I didn't know why.
I knew that I hated that and I knew that I loved her with all my heart. I knew that she was my absolute favorite person on the planet. I didn't understand why. And it was like I couldn't force myself to get there. I couldn't force myself to have deeper friendships. I had almost no friends. I had built my whole life around trying to be a successful pastor. And I I didn't know any different. It's not like I stopped and thought, I'm building my whole life around being a successful pastor. Right. But a point came in my life where I realized, shoot, like
pastoring thing isn't going well, marriage isn't going well. Now I'm having panic attacks and falling apart because crap, this is all I got. And so I found myself there. And then it took a lot of work with a counselor to be able to walk backwards and realized I ended up stuck there because of some lies that I believed really early on in my life that I had just been living in. I thought they were true. I thought that's who I was
I thought that's who I needed to be in the world. And so I was both living it out and trying to survive the really awful things that I've weeked about myself. Yeah. Does that make sense, Jesse?
Jesse French
Yeah, it does. And I think it's interesting because that process that you just described is very different than the one that you said a few minutes ago in the conversation where the typical response to the recognition of the stuckness, right, can so easily be the man, let me ramp up the RPMs, let me have more discipline, let me be a harder worker.
Jeremy Williamson
And Jesse, let's let's be honest. Let's be honest. How many guys are taking supplements? They're on testosterone. They're going to the gym. They're like nerding out on podcasts. They're reading books. Like trying the discipline thing, which only deepens our shame, to be honest, when we're trying to get this kind of stuff just through discipline. Yeah. Guys are doing it all over the place. These supplement companies, testosterone companies are making billions of dollars.
Out of men who are trying to get on stop, trying to find a way. And yeah, you're right. That's what most of us do. Try to fix it.
Jesse French
And it's we could and maybe we should have a whole separate conversation devoted to that because I think there's a lot of reasons why I think why that is attractive. And what you just said of like, no, actually the work that you did and the work that you're inviting the readers of your book to is to not just get on the the self-disciplined treadmill and crank it to eleven. It is to go back and to go deeper into our own lives and to wonder in some really
Honest and hard ways around the ways that we've been named.
Jeremy Williamson
Yeah. I ultimately, Jesse, we're talking about wounds. These are wounds. The thing at the beginning of your life that gave you a false name, it's a wound. And most of us live our lives trying to just survive the wound because to heal the wound requires that we get down in it. And most of us don't like that gory, bloody emotional crap. Yeah.
most of us want to take as many advil as we're allowed to and maybe some band-aids or just if it's a gash across our chest, we're just like putting on a bunch of shirts or putting on a suit and tie to hide it. Most of us would rather survive it than actually turn toward it. And I think the hard news is is night not only do you need to admit that you've been living a lie, but you need to look at it and you need to turn toward it. Yeah. in order to be free from it.
Jesse French
Yeah.
Jeremy, talk about how you invite the reader in that's not my name to some of that process. I think maybe I can specifically I remember reading it for the first time and sitting with your curiosity and your engagement around the story, the biblical story of Jacob, and just thinking, like, man, this is fascinating. Like to take this very well known story with so many layers and to just wonder about him specifically.
Take us into that, kinda as some of some of the way that you are inviting the reader to look deeply at their own wounds through that lens.
Jeremy Williamson
Yeah. one of the things that I noticed around this as I was studying into it is there is there's an incredible amount, and I'm just gonna say it like this, I think that there is like supernatural power. I think it is a holy and sacred thing to put a name on someone. Whether that is like a given name or even a nickname or like to confer identity on someone and then that for that identity to be received, Matthew Henry says that it is a
if I can remember his exact words, he says it is a it is an act of domination to impose a name on someone, and it is an act of subjugation or subservience to receive a name. And so I think it's this really powerful thing. And so as I was looking into scripture, we come to the story of Jacob right away in the book of Genesis. And we had seen like Abram and Sarai, whose names had been changed to Abraham and Sarah. And then, you know, we get down just a little bit further into the family tree.
And we meet Jacob, who was born younger twin. His brother was Esau, his grandpa was Abraham, his dad was Isaac. Jacob's name, and I won't go into the whole story, but his literal name means heel grabber, which is a euphemism for usurper, manipulator, you could say thief. so awful. It's like totally terrible. who names their kid that, Jesse? Where literally in his own language, Jacob is every day to ask me, like, hey.
Manipulator, they're like, hey, stealer, thief. Yeah. Come here. And so, surprise, surprise, what does Jacob become? He becomes the thing he was named. And that's not so to go back to the beginning of our conversation, that's not what God had in mind when he designed Jacob. Yeah. No way. But Jacob had been pulled into by the false naming because it's so powerful and so holy. He had been like pulled into a whole different identity.
Was far from what God had in mind for him. So God disrupts him and he's like, No, no, no, your name's not Jacob. God literally wrestles with him. Name is not Jacob, your name is Israel. And then he blesses him, and Jacob has the limp, and it's this whole crazy fascinating story. Well, what stood out to me, Jesse, is that after that story, he still generally goes by Jacob. It, I mean, today, was listening to podcasts yesterday, and they were talking about this man, and they referred to him as Jacob.
Nobody calls him Israel. Right. He's referred to as Israel poetically. So God comes back again later in the book of Genesis, no, dude, stop. Your name is Israel. It's not Jacob. But he never quite gets there. That led me down this rabbit hole, Jesse, of just understanding there is something that imprisons us. There's something that is like a chain around our ankle that happens when we receive.
A false name and we build our life around it. Shame moves in, we start to blame ourselves. It's no longer somebody else calling us that, but we start calling ourselves that. And then we feel stuck like we can never be free. And man, in the book I tell this other story, I'll say this really quickly. This guy I met in Mexico, who I had this crazy experience in my early 20s of meeting somebody who was called a demoniac, who was.
In this tiny village in Mexico, he was actually locked in a shed, in a tiny wooden shed with a chain around his ankle for 30 years, over 30 years. And I think he died there. And as I started as I I met him and and I tell the story in the book, just this intense, crazy moment. I had this encounter with him that changed everything about the way that I I see this, because Jesse, like, I don't know if this guy was a demoniac, and even if he was.
You locked a man in his shed for 30 years with a chain around his ankle. And I got to thinking, like, how many of us? Like whatever they believed was true about him, the false name that they gave him, the false identity that they gave this guy. His name is Oscar. How is that also true for me? That I've been locked in a shed with a chain around my ankle. I've been living under a false identity, just like Jacob did for most of my life. And we gotta get free. And there is a way, I think, to freedom.
Jesse French
So
yeah. Your writings around Oscar, particularly for me, are some of my favorite pieces of the book because it is your heart is so clear in that writing and I think it is powerful invitation to view that so much more than like, Wow, that's a crazy story that Jeremy had a bunch of years ago, but to actually say like, no, that's my story too, right? Like and so man, I'm so glad that that is part of of where you take the reader.
Jamie, keep going. You offer us, I think, some really helpful categories as we are trying to understand more of what that chain is in our life and more of that the lie that we have been been living out. Talk about a couple categories that you offered to further unpack what that is and how that shows up in our life.
Jeremy Williamson
Yeah. Yeah, thanks Jesse. I think that men find themselves usually n carrying false names that fall in one of three categories. And maybe you're in more than one. I know I found myself in a couple of these. But I think we can zero in and say, Yeah, like many of us were consumed, some were erased, and some were obliterated. And I think those words probably just speak for themselves. But we have many of us
receive these these identities that impose this sense on us that we exist for other people, that we exist to be consumed by others, whether it's our giftedness, our athleticism, that is like dad's living vicariously through us, or we're maybe it's our kindness or our tenderness, but there are different aspects of us that get wanted and the whole person gets left behind. But we are seen and then wanted and then we become bound in this contract.
Jesse, I work with lots of pastors. so many pastors grew up with a name of consumption. they just came to believe that it is their job to just lay out and everybody gets just gets to take what they want. And these guys, they end up absolutely, at the very least, exhausted. empty, lonely, sometimes like with some some coping mechanisms that like.
Feel like getting a little taste of something, a lot of sexual behavior and acting out, sometimes drinking, but there's this everyone is taking from me. I've got to get little breaths of air and rest and something at some point. So consumed erased, I think, is actually a lot of guys' stories where for whatever reason they just became a background character. And maybe that's because their family was just boring and there wasn't a lot of anything.
It just was like, I don't remember much from my childhood. I was never really a somebody. I've never been a somebody. I've never been particular or delightful or really even seen. Maybe because there was a family member that took up all the room in the house. Or there was expectations that if you're a Williamson, this is how you behave. Or if you go to this church, this is how you behave. And there was never actually room for you. So you were you were erased.
And I think a lot of men feel that. And you can always tell the guys who feel that because you're like, hey man, what do you what do you to do today? Or let's hang up this weekend, what do you want to do? And they're like, I don't I don't know. I don't know what I want. I can't even choose my flavor of ice cream. I'm not used to wanting anything or or even being seen. And then the last one obliterated is like sometimes people grow up in families where they are seen and then they're assaulted. And that can be abuse. That can be envy.
That can be just the working of your parents or your coaches, your classmates, the people who give us these false names, the actively working against you. And these guys come away with a lot of self-hatred that usually shows up in either being really big or really small. And so I hope those categories are helpful, Jesse, because that whole section of the book is like, we want you to find yourself. Yeah. Like evil's chance to keep doing stuff in the dark.
let's let it be done. Let's turn on the lights, give things their proper names and help you find some words for your own story so that by the end of this section of the book, you can actually say, These are my false names. And I've been obliterated or consumed or erased.
Jesse French
Yeah, and then here's the thing is listeners, like the way that Jeremy, specifically in that section of the book, as he unpacks the three of those categories, the way that he writes in the journey that he takes us on is really well done. I remember reading through those and there would be sections, paragraphs, sentences that I'd be like, There I am.
Jeremy Williamson
Mm.
Jesse French
There I am.
And so to be able to have writing then that orients and invites us to reflect in our own life in a way that is or in a space that is the stakes matter so much and it's really nuanced too, right? Like I think that's some of the huge help of this is like, man, we find ourselves wanting more freedom, stuck in some places
And to be able to get there, we have to be able to get into more of the nitty-gritty of what these false names are. Yeah. And to hold that with there's a complexity there and a nuance that is present. And your writing is a guide through that. And so it's not overly simplistic, but it is to say, man, like what a great, great phrase that you use was you talk a lot about like our true name or the identity, right, as as beloved. And you contrast that with.
Beloved is not the same as special. Right? special is something different. And that's just it's a great example of I think some of the nuance and some of the really important nitty gritty that we need to engage and consider so that we can actually identify the lie and step into what's true.
Jeremy Williamson
Man, I think it's this like middle section of the book that we're talking about right now that I mean, I I bring my own story into it, but for I think it's for other reasons that it was maybe the riskiest to write. Cause I'm just gonna be honest, Jesse, like I don't know how many people, how many men are ready or like maybe not ready but willing to go there. And I don't I don't mince words about that. It's like I'm inviting people the like the way to freedom.
To borrow someone else's phrase, the way out of where you're at is through it. And so the honesty that's required here, at the very least with between yourself and God, the honesty that's required here is costly. And I know that like I maybe shouldn't talk about my book in the terms of like, I don't know how many guys are gonna like this part. Cause I'm I actually am inviting you to do some stuff that's gritty and hard and bloody and sad.
But I think you have to be willing to walk through that if you're gonna find the wholeness that's waiting on the other side. Yeah.
Jesse French
That's so well said. Well said. That wholeness on the other side, there's so much in us, right, that just craves the like, man, where's the ribbon of resolution? Where's the like tidy bow in this journey? And we crave that. And I'd I want to hear your thoughts around where you invite us after that middle section of really doing what you just said, of trying to of
grieving and wrestling and grappling with the realities of some of those false names. What's next? And I say that feeling all of us of like, man, we've done the hard work. So now the the resolve is here. and I think your invitation is different.
Jeremy Williamson
Yeah. the resolve is here. Freedom is here. It wholeness is here. You don't have to keep living under a lie. you're the things that like my marriage is better today. It's I have a whole different marriage than I had before. My kids have a whole different bath. I approach ministry in a totally different way. I am a different man. And I am more I'm closer to the man that God had in mind when he designed me than I was.
Back then. And I sit I sit with couples and I do couples like counseling a lot. And Jesse, the number of times that I've heard the wife say, he always just wants to fix me. Anytime I'm like feeling something that's hard, he just wants to make it better. I know that that is our propensity as men. It's mine too. And this journey has to be slower than that. So what I
Jesse French
Why is that true?
Jeremy Williamson
Because I think when we're willing to meet Jesus in the dark, I think what happens there when we look at when we name the reality of our wounds and our sin and our failure and the ways that others have failed us, when we sit there, I think we meet him in his slow kindness in a way that that's what transforms us. So there's not a like pray the prayer, say the thing.
Recite this mantra over yourself five times a day. we don't those things maybe have their place, but like first, we just need to sit in what's true, which we're crappy at grief, Jesse. And we're crappy at sitting in discomfort. But for crying out loud, like we're talking about the part of you that was wounded. Some of you listening to this, you were wounded devastatingly, and no one has ever wept for you.
No one has ever gotten angry on your behalf. No one has ever sat and like told the story and given the story of your woundedness the space that it deserves. And so it's not like gratuitous and we're not talking about wallowing in shame or like wallowing in your pain forever, but you also can't skip it. I think Dan Alender in the foreword that he wrote to the book, that's one of the things that he points out is he says, Yeah, Jeremy and Vice is sit in the dirt.
And it is precisely like the humus, the dirt, that makes us human. It's being willing to sit in the crap that is what becomes the fertilizer for a new life. You just can't skip it. I'm sorry, you just can't skip it. And so my first invitation is actually to grief. but it's really hopeful grief that we move through, that we don't get stuck in. Yeah.
Jesse French
Yeah.
Even as you're talking about that, I can feel the intellectual agreement in my head as you're talking about like that makes sense. That makes sense. And to actually do that, right? To do that on a deeper level than just the rational parts of our mind, but to actually let you what you're saying, right? To engage that sadness or that anger, like it is costly. And we have such little instruction around how to do that or modeling of how to do that.
And so it does feel like a new language, a new muscle group that we have to engage and bumble our way through because to skip that feels like we're short circuiting very the very process that is needed.
Jeremy Williamson
Yeah. And I I think Jesse, I wanna disagree with you a little bit and say I don't think it's a new muscle. I think it's an atrophied one.
Jesse French
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy Williamson
Or maybe worse, like we come into the world knowing how to grieve. We know how to be sad. Anybody who has kids knows. Like your kid knows how to throw a fit, it's programmed in. He knows how to cry when he's sad. And he knows how to be sad when he's sad. But today, I think we feel we're terrified of it.
Jesse French
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy Williamson
Terrified of what it would feel like, terrified that we'd be alone, terrified that we'd fall apart, that we wouldn't be strong enough to get our crap together and do what we gotta do in our life, terrified that it would ruin our relationship because yeah, dad was a jerk and he gave me a false name. But if I moved like we're surviving well now. Right. We're fine. we're we're okay. So if I move toward grief, this is gonna ruin that. And if if what we mean is ruin your pretend relationship with your dad, or
That's not even based in reality. And I'm not suggesting that you're gonna go need to talk to your dad. But what you need to do is feel and actually give yourself permission to do something that's it's actually natural for you. Your body, your mind, your emotions were programmed by God, by the God who weeps, by Jesus who wept, by the God who is sad and angry at times. We were programmed by him.
to move through these things and it is a part of how we have to function. But I think we work really hard to avoid it. And maybe that muscle has atrophied, but it's it's there, Jesse. Mm-hmm.
Jesse French
Such a good distinction. I think that's that's really helpful. And that statement that I made is indicative, right, of our unfamiliarity with it, right? To even say like, it you know, it doesn't exist. No, I actually it does. We just are are so so distant from it.
Jeremy Williamson
Yeah. And I'm glad the journey doesn't end there.
Jesse French
Yeah, keep going. Yeah.
Jeremy Williamson
The journey does end in joy. The journey ends in hope, but I think it has to start here with honesty and grief. And then Jesse, I I believe that, you know, if if we're living in a lie, I think the good news is, you know, Jesus quoted Isaiah when he was preaching in a synagogue one time and he said, The Spirit of the Lord is on me because he's anointed me to bring good news to the poor, to proclaim freedom for those who've been captive, to open doors to people who have been imprisoned. The door is
open for you. And you actually have the ability to just stop living under false names. You have the authority to be done here. And so I think we walk people through this. So now here's how to be done. And here's how to leave the shed and the chain. And here's how to like start to move toward home where truth and a welcome is actually waiting for
Jesse French
Yeah. Yeah, I think that articulation of the work that Jesus has done and then the agency that we have to be able to respond to that, I think is so and it it's such good news and it it also I think is it's sober, like in the way of like let's try to be as honest as we can around this of like Jesus is inviting us to this, but he is not forcing
And there is no coercion.
Jeremy Williamson
And so it the scripture does not say he opens the door of the prison, grabs you by your neck, right, and pulls you out. Right. It's no the prison door is open. What would you like to do about that?
Jesse French
Yes. And I think one of the pieces around that then that you speak to really well and and is like you say, look, I don't have one story of like walking out out of the shed like you're walking out of the prison. Like I have thousands of choosing that. And I think that's kind of what I was saying of like, man, I I can feel the desire towards the resolve of like, man, the light switch
hinge moment where what at one moment we change and that shifts the movement of our life for all of time. And I think your words around look, this is something that we choose, that I choose hundreds of times a day to actually to live out of that true, true identity and true name. That's the like, yes, that is true. And that speaks to I think to the reality of what we're dealing with and the reality of what freedom is like.
As we think about that and consider our own agency, right?
Jeremy Williamson
Yeah, the end is coming. there will be a day when the fight's over and when shame is vanquished and when evil is conquered. But it's not today. And I I wish in our churches that we got this right more often. That yes, like our identity and our belovedness and our belonging to God is full and final. It is decided. Our
actually living within that grace is daily. And it is like the force of shame and the force of evil who will relentlessly invite us back to slavery to our false names. That's not going anywhere today. And so there's the you'd call it spiritual warfare all day, every day. Like that's not n but that's not my name. That's not who I am. I feel that pull. I feel that familiar shame. I feel that familiar
Desire. No, that's not my name. Mm-hmm. No. Not today. I know who I am. Mm-hmm.
Jesse French
Jeremy, what as we kinda round the corner on this conversation, I'll try to be clever here for a second and ask you who shouldn't read this book?
Jeremy Williamson
Don't read it if you're looking for like self-help or like leadership kind of five steps to live a better life. Don't read it if you're not ready to go on a journey that's pretty epic. it reminds me of like when the dwarfs showed up at Bilbo Baggin's house and they're like in the first one, not the Lord the Rings, but the
Jesse French
What's it called? Sorry.
Jeremy Williamson
So they first show up and they're like, Hey, we're going to are we going into the mountain to the dragon and we want you to come and be our burglar. Like we want there's an invitation for you to come with us. You might die. Your life will definitely not be the same. They have this whole contract for him that he has to sign. And he's like, Nope, nope, nope, not gonna do it. And they're sad and then they leave without him. Mm-hmm.
And then it's that awesome scene where he wakes up, comes to his senses, and he signs and he's like, I'm going on an adventure. Yeah, if you're ready, let's go. But let's be honest that this is what it is. It I hope that it will change everything. So don't read it if you need a light self-help.
Jesse French
Yeah, it's good. Yeah, I and I would say like this is a book that just weaves excellent writing, theological curiosity, vulnerability from Jeremy, years and years of experience working and sitting with people. Weaves all of those things, I think, into a book that is so worth your time. And so
Like I said, I've read it a handful of times at different iterations in your writing process and so grateful for your willingness to share it, for your willingness to risk it, and ultimately your desire f to join Jesus in the pursuit of freedom that he has for us, that he wants for us. So Jeremy, your book officially launches on November the fifth, which is super, super exciting. Just hear from me, those of you who are listening, like Restoration Project is
So pumped to be the publisher of this book, to be able to share that with our audience, to share it with the world. And so we will have in our show notes the link to be able to go to buy that. As some of probably better than me, obviously the whole deal around book launch and Amazon and all those things, there is a value to the collective movement of people in pursuing and buying this book. So we would invite you to do that, not just for the algorithm, but even more so around momentum and potential. I think that this book
offers. So so excited that that's coming into the world here in just a couple of days. As we close, Jeremy, what else would you kind of send us with as you think about this work and the folks that are listening here today?
Jeremy Williamson
I think it's on my heart to say if to the guys that are still listening, like this is for you. You're not excluded from this and you're not beyond the freedom and the wholeness that Jesse and I have been talking about today. I don't care how far you think you are, or how unworthy or disqualified you think your sin or your abuse or your brokenness makes you. That's one of the lies that you're believing.
And I just hear me say, this is for you really good guys who have a hard time even pointing to anything bad in your life. And this is for you really broken guys who would think that it's too good to be true.
Jesse French
Thanks for this conversation.
Jeremy Williamson
Yeah, thank you, Jesse. Yeah.
Jesse French
Excited what's ahead. And I'll just give a little plug too. The next episode that's coming on the Resort of Man podcast is a really cool one because it allows you to to hear a sweet conversation with Jeremy and Cody more around the writing process of the book that kind of pulls back some of the curtain around what that was like for Jeremy.
Jeremy Williamson
Was it doozy?
Jesse French
It was amazing. It is so good. It is gosh, it is I'm I'm pumped that people get to hear that. So that's just a little plug there. So thanks, Jeremy. Appreciate you, man.
Jeremy Williamson
Absolutely. Good to be here.