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Heat (1995): Michael Mann’s Epic Crime Saga, Part 1!
Join host Ryan and guest Craig Cohen from The GOAT: A Brian De Palma Fan Podcast on The Directors Chair Network for Part 1 of our 5-part deep dive into Michael Mann’s 1995 masterpiece Heat! We cover the first 34 minutes, from the intense armored car heist to Robert De Niro’s diner showdown. With tributes to Val Kilmer and Mann’s iconic style, this is a must-watch for Heat fans.
We dissect the opening heist sequence, showcasing Robert De Niro’s Neil McCauley and his crew’s precision, contrasted by Kevin Gage’s reckless Waingro. We explore Mann’s authentic visuals, sound design, and the performances of De Niro, Al Pacino, and Val Kilmer. Ryan and Craig discuss Mann’s signature aesthetic, from blue-tinted shots to Elliot Goldenthal’s score, plus a nod to Heat 2 and Val Kilmer’s passing.
Creators and Guests
What is The Director's Chair Network?
Join Ryan and many featured guests and other hosts as they break down and review a variety of directors and their films!
So far, this podcast has featured films from Edward Zwick, John Hughes, Brian De Palma, and Michael Mann.
Soon, we will feature Edgar Wright, Sam Peckinpah, Paul Verhoeven, and David Fincher!
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[Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause]
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[Music] heat heat
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[Music]
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[Applause]
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[Music] welcome to another episode of the Director's Chair Network
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show/podcast slash whatever this thing is called this is the season however that I Ryan I'm covering the Michael Man
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films and with me today I have first time guest co-host for the Michael Man
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series but longtime co-host partner the many projects I've done specifically
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Craig you covered three different films from Edwick's career but you're with me
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today from Michael Man's career how you doing i'm good thanks and apologies to people on the video my camera is not
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working we could not get it to work but we do get this sort of Michael Man inspired avatar for me it's the picture
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I use for my music but it's got like that blue it's fitting for this because
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heat some of the night scenes have that bluish tint and man is always very stylized so the avatar kind of works for
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the video folks it does it does look very Michael man
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heat for sure so the aesthetic is there replace the keyboard with a like a M50 or something and and we're there
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so we are we're covering a big film today and I I'll just say this up front if you're listening to this because you
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are a heat nerd or fanatic or those things we're not here to give people
1:53
something they don't know so if you're looking for like crazy trivia and all the behindthe-scenes stuff and all
2:00
you're already a Heat fanatic at that point so you already know everything this is just two friends talking about
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Heat talking about Michael man giving our thoughts and stuff like I always want to make that clear because I don't want people coming in here thinking
2:12
they're going to tell me something I don't already know because I'm a heat fanatic but if you just want to hear two friends talk about the movie and our
2:18
thoughts on it this is the place to do it i will say this too this is part one of five so what I mean by that dear
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listener is I've got five different co-hosts coming on to Cover Heat because it's such a big film one it's not short
2:31
two there's just so much that goes on in it and I would like to hear different voices and opinions and thoughts on the film in
2:39
general but when I have my co-host on like Craig today we're going to chronological order of the film in that
2:45
we're only going to speak directly like specifically to the first 34 minutes of the film and it's going to be about 30
2:52
to 34 minutes per guest so I think everyone's tracking but of course I want to hear Craig i want to hear your thoughts generally speaking when did you
2:58
first see the film we'll get into all that stuff just the broad strokes before we talk about a couple scenes for the
3:03
first part of the film i advocated for something special for Heat so I'm glad that you decided on a format that pays
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this movie the podcast respect it deserves absolutely so what Craig's referring to
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is after the five episodes of Heat are released and listened to by the public I
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am taking from all said five co-hosts they're going to share their thoughts and feelings on the final shootout scene
3:29
of the film because that of course is the big we all talk about everyone knows that scene and I want to hear everyone's
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thoughts that was Craig's idea we figured the last person shouldn't be the only person that gets to talk about that part and that's a fair statement and
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that'll be like a bonus episode really is going to be six episodes how long that six episode will be it might not be
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very long it could just be 2 minutes 3 minutes of whatever the co-host wants to share regarding that final sequence and
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I will share my thoughts on that sequence when I cover it with the co-host i guess it'll be the four that
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missed out we'll get to talk about it and we'll we'll pack the You know what I'll probably do Craig i'll probably even just insert that into the actual
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I'll say "Hey now let's listen to the four hosts that missed this part of the shootout." And then we end I do want to
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preface this by saying that if we had recorded this a month ago this
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discussion might be slightly different in the fact that since you started planning this podcast Val Kilmer has
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passed away yeah uh and this movie is such a phenomenal showcase of that dude's talents i'm sure we're going to
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spend time talking about Val but I just wanted to frontload it by saying it's it's really interesting that even a
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month ago this conversation probably would have been different very well said yeah that's true i'm I'm
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glad he died before before we record only no cuz then you listen back and we're talking about him as if he's alive
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and people are like geez when did they record this that's true that's true now it will be evergreen from the time of
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his death onward yeah for sure okay so let's get into it i want to get first off because this is your first time guesting on this season the Michael Man
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season and you will be coming on again i believe you're covering is it inside man with me is that you no it's the Insider
5:06
yeah the Insider sorry cigarette movie yeah that's right another Pacino movie too i didn't even realize that i'm doing
5:12
the That's right the two Pacino films in his filmography is that what it is is the Insider or the Insider Man boy I got
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the two mixed up in my head now the inside man's the Denzel Washington bank robber movie that's right oh man all
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right you're right the Insider that's right russell Crow and Pacino that's right oh it's funny i was so excited cuz
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I got Inside Inside inside Man cuz that's the one with Jodyie Foster in it yeah oh no have you seen The Insider
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i've seen both i just got my brain look I'm a Michael man fan but again I'm not
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a fanatic mean I've seen all his Actually that's not true i'm now seen all of his films but I just got It's
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funny if you were to ask me two minutes ago is Jodyie Foster in a Michael Man film it's good that we had this
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discussion cuz we would have sat down to record that episode and we'd start talking about two different movies no
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I'm sure I would have figured out cuz I believe Inside Man is that a spikely film it's a spikely joint yes Spikeley
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wait I actually I don't know if that's a spikely joint i think it is it might be a spikely film i don't know how he
6:13
handles that credit oh I see what you're saying i don't know if he wrote that so if he doesn't write the movie does he
6:19
still call it a Spike Lee joint are we going to have to do a Spike Lee season that one might be one worth
6:24
investigating too because he's an interesting director i've seen a lot of his films he doesn't like Quenton
6:31
does he he doesn't like Quentyn's use of race i know he takes
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offense to the fact that Tarantino even though he was raised by a lot of black parental figures and things
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like that i think Spike Lee takes offense to him appropriating black culture maybe in his movies or
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stereotyping black characters but since we're talking about Spike Lee Spike Lee
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recently talked about how important this new Ryan Cooler movie Sinners is oh I
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rarely get out of the house to go see movies but yesterday the timing worked and me and my wife went and saw Sinners
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in IMAX and I got to tell you man as a movie lover that's a movie that reminded me
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why I love movies and as I was watching it I was like man it's like Cougler is I
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think now if you're talking about like directors people talk about Christopher Nolan they talk about Tarantino they
7:28
talk about David Fincher it's seriously time to have a like a conversation about Ryan Cougler as one of the unique and
7:36
innovative voices in film there's a sequence in Sinners that 15 20 years from now I could see
7:44
whoever the hot upand cominging filmmaker is saying I saw Sinners and that scene in Sinners is what made me
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want to become a filmmaker interesting okay yeah go see it in the largest screen you can and the loudest
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sound system you can wow if you're listening to this podcast you probably love movies as much as much as Ryan and
8:02
myself and man it was like a cinematic cleanse almost really really cool okay
8:08
all right all right let's get to heat i'm sorry I took up too much no that's okay everyone's already aware but there might there might be a few listeners who
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aren't aware michael Man actually wrote and directed a TV movie called LA Takedown la Takedown yeah I watched it
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about a year ago oh you did see it i haven't seen it it's interesting it was a TV film so obviously it was made for
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TV it was originally filmed as a pilot for a television series if you can believe it
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of the names in here I recognize Michael Rooker great actor and Daniel Baldwin was in it interesting enough that's
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about it for names oh Xander Berkeley was in i recognized that name he's in 24 what's your over thoughts on the TV film
8:46
or the pilot what was it was it good was it ahead of its time or No it was watchable i think without the connection
8:53
to heat it probably wouldn't be worth talking about but it's interesting to see a filmmaker do
8:59
something realize how great of an idea it is and then revisit it and get a
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second chance to do it and create a masterpiece it's a curiosity at most
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it's something I watched i doubt I'll watch it again all right fair enough okay so it really does
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feel like a a TV pilot made for TV type it's interesting to
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see man play with the idea and then get a chance to really do
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it with a bigger budget the kind of budget it deserves and more importantly the acting
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talent that he has in Heat i think every major character shows up in that first
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34 minutes right yeah and I haven't seen this movie in a spell like I don't watch it yearly or anything i've seen it
9:45
probably I'm at three times fully maybe four maybe but not more than five so
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it's and it's been a few years since I've seen the film i know well enough that when I'm watching it I'm not surprised by any of the major beats like
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the heist and this and that but I forget like dialogue and scenes and Michael Man of course had another chance to write
10:03
and direct and make a full-fledged movie out of this yeah you mentioned the characters we're going to get into them we're going to speak briefly about them
10:09
and they're going to come up again five times as I do this so I'm not going to say too too much per actor but I am
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curious with my co-hosts and I'll say this to all of them just to briefly give me your overall thoughts so I don't bore
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my listeners too much but I want to hear your opinions about some of these actors of just how they did in the film overall
10:26
or what you think of their career like I've done on other movies but if I'm going to have more than one co-host I want to hear other people's thoughts on
10:33
the characters if they come up during their segment of the movie they're going to watch because like you said Craig
10:38
almost all the major players are shown in the first half hour of this film which is crazy i'd forgotten that holy
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smokes not everybody but most of the big ones so right away Robert
10:51
Dairo what are your thoughts of Robert yeah it's insane the level that he is able to
10:58
achieve a as an actor and I I know there's a lot of sort of conflicting
11:04
opinions about Dairo now as the political climate in this country has gotten as hot as it has people aren't
11:11
able to objectively look at artists for their art i'm guilty of it as well but
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it's really amazing to watch Dairo in what you could probably consider his
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prime probably from Good Fellas to this movie were like his prime years as an
11:30
actor in terms of really achieving a high level in his craft this character
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it's such a well-ritten character and Dairo's delivery is so good it It feels
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like you're watching a guy who's been in prison it's pretty remarkable in my opinion and people have a lot of
11:48
different opinions of Dairo and Pacino in terms of how one note they can be sometimes but the directness of Dairo
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works in this movie the work he does with his eyes in this movie there's
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probably a scene that's not in that first 34 minutes that perfectly illustrates it but it's even like the scene where he's in the coffee shop with
12:06
Amy Brenamman the reason that we're talking about this movie other than the fact that you're doing a Michael man
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season is because of the performances in this film yeah it's a showcase of
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incredible performances and and this is the Michael Man season and now that I've done his films I've watched the films of
12:23
course in order because I'm doing the podcast in film order and I'm now seeing
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finally with his fourth theatrical film this was his first one since uh Last Moheakans but I'm seeing definitely the
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way he films it's there i'm seeing it i'm really seeing the Michael Manisms and I don't know if I really noticed it
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before per se i just know that he had a couple films I really enjoyed like Heat and uh Last Moheagans those are films I
12:48
just like genuinely enjoyed but watching his films in order from Thief to now he
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really does have an aesthetic that it's just a really cool I don't know how else to describe
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it it's just like suave cool filming techniques he definitely has a Michael
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Man flare like you can tell he's the director yeah and the other thing about Michael Man that I really really
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appreciate is the authenticity of his approach and that is
13:17
everything from especially a movie like this where you're looking at law enforcement and how they operate
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there's a level of authenticity there and that even boils down to the performances other
13:31
directors might let actors off the hook or might let them be a little bit lazy but you can
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tell watching this movie that the performances are just as important as every other aspect of this
13:46
film and speaking of film aesthetics the way he does the angles and lighting and
13:51
things like that he has a love of a certain sound of music now we talked about with his first two films he used
13:57
the techno German group Tangerine tangerine Dream yeah yeah so he didn't
14:04
use them for Manhunter but I mentioned on that episode that the sound was still there and it's here too it's a different
14:12
conductor altogether very accomplished director named Elliot Goldenthal and he's done a lot of films like from Alien
14:19
3 he did Demolition Man for example Interview of the Vampire just name some after he did Michael Collins A Time to
14:25
Kill he's done some like Batman Robin films he's done a lot of big films these
14:30
aren't small films they've done well at the box office type films but what I'm getting at I guess Michael Man must tell
14:37
the conductor Ellias saying "Hey just so you know go look at Thief go look at the
14:43
keep and manhunter and I want you to mimic that sound because you hear it here do do you not hear yeah yeah and
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much like artists or painters have a color palette this is an oral color palette these are
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the sounds I want you to work within but then there's also bigger cinematic stuff going on in this movie too there is but
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this it's still there and I forgot to mention this with Katie and you haven't heard it yet cuz at the time of this recording it's still being edited but
15:12
there was even with that big cuz as Last Moheakans incredible score it's one of my favorite scores of all time but there
15:18
were scenes in that movie where he still had the theme of I hear it i like I I hear it is I hear the sound so even
15:24
though it's a more classical epics by Trevor Jones used in Last Moheakans
15:29
there were moments in that film where it's like I hear that tangerine dream whatever soundsscape he wanted i guess
15:36
what I'm saying is just like Quent Tino has a thing for feet michael Man has a thing for he's probably the first
15:43
director where I can associate other than maybe Stephen Spielberg and John
15:48
Williams but he's the first director where you hear a theme in his music where it's an actual not just theme
15:55
sorry a soundsscape an audible director signature he definitely he has this oh
16:02
you're there by the way I figured it out what your cap was on your cap's on the
16:08
computer yes are you serious but it's so weird that
16:14
it would give us the error message that it did i hope people stuck around because Craig
16:20
is now visible that's wild like I just looked and I saw that I put my laptop on
16:26
a new stand the other day so when I picked it up my thumb must have That's hilarious it was bugging me cuz this
16:32
laptop's two weeks old so I'm like how can the camera not be working already that's all right
16:38
okay I'm keeping that in by the way cuz I want everyone to see how human No Ryan I apologize because my episodes are so
16:45
effing messy i go on tangents i get off topic
16:51
so I apologize because I always do it and it's something I say I'm not going to do and then I do it anyway
16:57
all right so as we do Craig I'm not going to go plot by plot even though I'm going to show certain scenes again
17:03
you're a Heat fan already if you haven't seen the film go watch the film even
17:08
when I talk about these films and I listen to what I've talked about I'm like I don't even think I've really spoiled anything i think no matter what
17:14
it is you just go watch the film it's an incredible film i do have one guest co-host coming on who do I almost
17:20
hesitated having them come on they don't like the film they actually want to come on and they don't like the film so we'll
17:26
we'll leave it at that and he wants to be last apparently so he can like really I don't know we'll see i won't
17:33
name him because I don't want to shame him we'll let him shame himself when he comes on but I don't know how you could
17:39
objectively not like this film to any kind of degree especially with the
17:44
podcasts that he does anyways okay so yeah I'll echo regarding
17:53
Robert i'll speak more about him with other co-hosts but for now I really like Robert Dairo i've always enjoyed Robert
17:59
Dairo i I've been a quiet Dairo fan my whole life i've never done a podcast about him i've never rushed to the
18:06
theater to see him but I have seen a lot of his films if not the majority of his
18:13
films and I always enjoy them when you see him here aesthetically he just looks so he's
18:20
peak and he's like 52 in this film and he's handsome he's just got that badass
18:25
like badassery to him and he's so stoic and cool this is where I give total credit to Robert despite even some of
18:32
his whatever Meet the Faulers part seven but whatever he earned his stripes with
18:37
films like this so watching this with Robert is what I'm getting at i'm like man he was so cool in this I'd forgotten
18:42
how cool he looks and acts and this was the same year talk about a year for Dairo as Casino
18:51
a very underrated and I love Scorsese by the way i'm very tempted to do a Scorsese season selfishly because even
18:58
though he's not really an undersung director I love his film so much he's Oh he's so good he plays of course the
19:05
baddie the main boss guy Neil McCauley he's a professional thief they live in LA and he and his crew at the beginning
19:11
of the film have one of the more classic scenes at the time we're seeing how good they are that's the whole idea is we're
19:16
seeing how good this crew is robbing an armored car take a look
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[Music]
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so let it play a little bit here but again it's that classic scene of the semi hitting the armored car tipping it
19:44
over i love that inside the vehicle shot of the person the car flipping it's
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really well done i don't know how often that was done this don't forget this film came out 30 years ago so that
19:55
inside the car sequence of being hit and moved I don't know how much that was
20:01
being done before this time do you know Craig i don't but I will say this the
20:06
driver is a stunt performer named Tommy Rosales Jr if you Google him you'll see
20:14
his filmography it's pretty remarkable but he is an indicator when you see him in a scene that something very technical
20:22
from a stunt perspective is about to happen cuz it looks like he's there's no
20:27
CGI here obviously so it looks like he was jostled that makes sense so that was him in the Okay that totally makes sense
20:34
because it's a very impactful excuse the pun scene of him being jostled inside the armor vehicle so it's very effective
20:41
now we're seeing how precise these guys are they got the timer they realize once the call has been made they have exactly
20:46
3 minutes to get out of there before the response comes in and this is a great sequence here again another classic scene when the windows get blown out
20:53
when they blow out the armored car door it's just again a very effective quick little scene of the sound effect that
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the explosion has because that plays into the poor armored car's ears have been blown out in the
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process clear
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[Music] now I love that because there's like that slight delay he hits the switch and
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then the Oenheimer effect but a very quick version of it the sound gets gets sucked in there's no sound it goes and
21:31
then boom i wonder if Christopher Nolan even not stole it but got influence from this scene the idea that everything goes
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silent before the big boom yeah i I can only imagine the amount of technical consultants there were on this film and
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guys like Michael Mann and Christopher Nolan are going to want their [ __ ] to look authentic of course they're going to have the right technical people
21:50
involved even that is a Michael man thing and he started that of course with thief consulting with and working with
21:56
actual thieves and consulting with them and I believe with this film the actors and Michael man false in prison was
22:03
visited other consultants in this area so yeah that's what makes this movie so cool is that again before Christopher
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Nolan was Christopher Nolan you had Michael Mann doing this realism type stuff it felt real and that's why big
22:16
shootout the makes it so aesthetically pleasing to watch because it didn't feel like an action movie it felt like we
22:23
were witnessing Miami Vice is a perfect example of this where Miami Vice the
22:30
film is basically a classic study of
22:35
undercover police work how covers are created that's a very technical film in
22:42
that aspect and you can tell that that's the kind of stuff that interests Michael Man if he's going to do a cop movie it's
22:49
going to be authentic if somebody like Doug watches it they're not going to be able to say "Oh that's bullshit."
22:56
Okay i just want to showcase the scene because we have the one guy yeah langro he goes a little bit bonkers uh on his
23:02
own he's played by an actor named I don't recognize his face kevin Gage is
23:08
his name do you recognize him from anything in particular he does have a familiar looking face but No it's funny
23:14
though because Ted Levine is in this movie before you see Ted Levine you watch this and you're like "Oh is that
23:19
Ted Levine?" And then you're like "No Ted Levine shows up later." But he's got like a Ted Levine look to him i'm
23:25
looking at his filmography it doesn't seem like much came from after this film
23:31
which is really odd and too bad because he does a good job playing a sle ball of a sleas ball he's done TV work but just
23:38
episodic TV here and there and he he's got films coming out but they seem to be those type of straight to DVD they don't
23:44
even have a a clickable Wikipedia link if that makes sense i guess he's still working though which
23:50
he's paying his bills good for him he's paying the bills but yeah so he plays Wang Gro who we're going to see
23:56
now basically Stone Cold murders a guard and because of that action they now have
24:02
to off the other two guards and it's a really it's a it's tough again what I like about this film is I've seen murder
24:09
on film before of course it's not a big deal in the sense like I might clutch my pearls but what makes it so brutal in
24:15
this film is that it didn't have to happen and it and the way it's filmed too it just feels real like they just
24:22
execute these guys yeah you get an indication that he's not as experienced as the rest of the crew because you have
24:30
God why am I blanking on his name now tom Seismore tom Seismore who he's Wayne
24:35
is giving the guy instructions and he's not listening to him and Seismore's like "Hey [ __ ] look at the [ __ ] coming out
24:41
of his ears he can't hear you." You can tell that the crew has a level of
24:47
experience that Wayne Gro doesn't and also that Wayne Gro has a trigger finger
24:53
and he's hot and he was looking for an excuse to kill somebody but then as Pacino's character points out if you're
24:59
going to catch a murder beef it doesn't matter at that point so why leave any witnesses yeah exactly and here's that
25:05
scene right here that we're talking about 80 seconds
25:11
left get back get back hey slick you see that [ __ ] coming
25:19
out of their ears they can't [ __ ] hear you cool it and right here that poor This poor guy
25:26
shell shocked this poor guard just a complete days he can't hear maybe he
25:31
can't even see mhm their vision might not even be quite there they're really in a state of shock number one this guy
25:40
is just looking like I said to to blow him away
25:48
i got it got it okay so they got the bear bombs for the armor car good let's
25:54
go let's move i don't understand and it's not never really explained in the film at least the first 34 minutes of
25:59
the film why do they even need this Wangro like they could have almost done this without him maybe it's just a plot
26:05
device i get it but this is such an experienced crew like Dairo's character and the crew it seemed very experienced
26:11
and tight the idea that they had to hire an extra gunman when their whole idea was not to do this kind of shooting it
26:17
was just preventative if necessary i wonder how they screened this guy what was his resume where they felt like he
26:22
could be trusted for this big heist yeah at the same time you can see McCaulay doing the math on a job like this and
26:29
doing whatever calculation he does and being like "This is the amount of guys you need there's probably a minimum
26:36
amount of bodies for guard control." That was Wayne Gro's responsibility and you saw there was the one guy that had
26:41
the stopwatch who was keeping track of the three-minute timer seismore character he had obvious coverage that
26:48
he was looking at it's understandable from that perspective but if you're going to nitpick the movie like your
26:54
your co-host at the end is this might be one of the things that he details about why he hates the movie let's not give
27:01
him any any ammo i want him to come in on his own i should have had him come on first but he swears he has to be last
27:08
cuz I guess he wants to leave a big heat shite for everyone to listen to all right i said "Sure you can go last
27:15
that's fine." All right so here's Wangro and this is just brutal brutal brutal
27:20
viewer discretion is advised [Music]
27:26
that'll [ __ ] with me that'll [ __ ] with me
27:34
there's Tommy Rosales yes now they had no choice because of course one shot happened the other guys
27:40
like "Oh crap they're shooting at us i got to pick up my gun start shooting." They weren't gonna fight but like now he just shot my teammate my my security
27:46
guard teammate so I guess I got to fight now they shoot him down but then you have this one guy oh I feel bad for this
27:52
guy he's still walking out almost like surrendering himself but yeah just wrong place wrong time why but why didn't they
27:58
leave him they're They're totally cut i mean cuz they
28:04
It's a good thing that that homeless guy with the TV they didn't see him you're right they heard the word slick we
28:10
talked about that they heard their voices so I guess there is enough there's voices body statures yeah how
28:16
many were there yeah uhuh yeah yeah
28:24
now who gives the order to kill is that Den yeah and then it's or is it Kilmer
28:31
that kills i think you know what see this it's definitely Macaulay that gives the the thumbs up yeah but Kilmer was in
28:39
the truck he was the one that got the bonds that must be Seismore
28:56
and there you see the sort of the military precision there where obviously he's dead but you still do the head shot
29:03
the body doesn't even move what two in the chest one in the head or something that's right that's the classic this is
29:09
probably a good time and yeah please i'm sure everybody listening is aware that in the last what two years
29:16
probably Michael Man co-authored Heat 2 which is a novel which is a prequel and a sequel to Heat
29:25
you get the history of Macaulay and his crew but the book is split there's two timelines there's the preheat and then
29:32
post Heat and I know he's talked about making it into a movie and I know he talked about recasting and I know Adam
29:39
Driver was mentioned it'll be interesting to see if he actually does it especially now that Kilmer's gone not
29:45
that Kilmer could have played himself or his character just because of the age if you're a fan of the movie definitely
29:52
check out the book there it is heat too 30% off sticker for when I bought it is
29:59
it a good read it is it is it's a thick book you can see
30:06
it's 400 486 pages oh wow long is the hard
30:12
cover so it's a long book it took me a couple weeks to read i actually read it on my Kindle i took it out of the library on my Kindle but I brought the
30:19
the hard cover just to support it and let people know that hey I stuff like this should still be put out so I love
30:26
it no I'm I am going to read it after it's on my to read list and so they don't mention in the book about why they
30:32
pick Wayne Gro does it does it lead up to these events at all or is it just is it early earlier or it's it's earlier
30:39
and then I think directly after as we get to the introduction of Pacino's
30:46
character if you look at this movie and if you look at this movie from
30:52
the perspective of it not being written and directed and developed by Michael Man if this was just an idea
30:58
conceptualized by somebody else this movie it's very possible another
31:04
filmmaker wouldn't have done the cops and the robbers aspect of it where you
31:09
could start the film actually from Pacino's character Hannah arriving on
31:16
the scene detailing everything that happened because he pretty much figures out exactly the sequence of events but
31:23
you could make a 90minute version of this from just the cops perspective and it would still work but the thing that
31:29
makes it a Michael man movie is you get the cops and the robbers perspective
31:36
until the very last second of the film you're not rooting for either one
31:43
when you're with Macaulay and his crew you're rooting for them but when you're
31:48
with Hannah and his team you're rooting for them you're not really rooting against anybody at least I wasn't but of
31:55
course the final moments of the film for me at least it all felt right at that moment i
32:04
was team Hannah like of course yeah but that's another interesting thing here is it's hard to do that because Macaulay
32:11
and his crew they do heinous things right it it's always interesting to see when
32:17
filmmakers are able to showcase people who aren't good but also
32:25
at least make you relate to them a little bit and
32:30
that's one of man's strength here is the cops never come off as looking at
32:37
the bad guys in this movie whereas as much as I love him Tarantino is not really great about the law and order
32:44
aspect of things like even in even in like Jackie Brown the Michael Keaton
32:49
character who's a what in a de agent or whatever you don't really like those characters they put Jackie in a bad
32:55
position and it paints law enforcement in a bad light whereas here you can tell
33:00
through man's entire filmography that he's got a reverence for law and the
33:07
people who enforce it actually that's great cuz we're going to get into films obviously like Miami Vice and stuff and or Collateral with the Tom Cruz
33:14
character playing the hitman there's like parts of you like am I supposed to be enjoying this i should be appalled by
33:20
all this behavior but this is the thing is it makes you question humanity in and of itself and maybe we see ourselves a
33:28
little bit in each of these characters within the criminals of this film played by of course Tom and Robert and Val they
33:36
have a commodery a team building and trust that's admirable they're a
33:41
tight-knit group and you admire and you almost want to can I be part of this gang and that's what made Wayne that's
33:47
what made Wayne Grow such an oddity is because he was such a loose cannon and he didn't fit he was an issue from the
33:52
beginning yeah you know what I think a good word to use Ryan is you can respect
33:58
what they do in the sense that regardless of what somebody's profession
34:03
is or chosen profession is if you see that they have a reverence and a respect
34:09
for it and are good at it you can at least appreciate that aspect of it and I
34:14
think it's funny because Hannah even ultimately understands and respects
34:21
Macaulay the scene 30 years in the making yeah but you can tell that there's
34:27
I don't know if it's mutual respect there's mutual understanding but I definitely think that there's an aspect
34:34
of Hannah especially as he looks at this crime scene where there's a level of
34:41
respecting the craftsmanship of what they do he understands it he knows that
34:47
it's not just these three guards weren't killed for a reason it's like the one was killed and then the two other were
34:52
killed just because they're already going to have murder charges so it it's interesting there and I don't know if
34:58
that makes a good cop is it probably is the fact that you shouldn't
35:04
underestimate or disrespect the people that you're hunting or investigating or looking for
35:10
because if you disrespect them you're probably going to miss details or things that might help you catch them so that's
35:16
probably part of Hannah's philosophy he even says it right these aren't gangbangers these are That's right these
35:21
are professionals right away yeah yeah you have to know your enemy to chase
35:27
them to figure them out i don't have any clips for the introduction of L as the
35:33
LAPD Lieutenant Vincent Hannah but he comes on the scene but we see right away that he's sharp as a whip too so you
35:39
have the best cop in the area versus the best criminal in the area this whole idea of course played by the two top
35:46
actors within their field it's a little bit meta but that's what we love about it i just love the idea that we get to
35:51
that diner scene but I just love how both Al and Robert are so respected in their own acting it's almost like Arnold
35:59
and Sly in the same That's this idea that you have these competitors or competitors I should say it's
36:06
interesting because we got Sly and Arnold at least 10 years too late in
36:11
Escape Plan both those guys were in their 60s where here we have Pacino and
36:16
Dairo they're both in their what early 50s at this point so it's Yeah 55 L and
36:22
52 yeah al's probably leaving his prime acting years and Diierro's a a couple way years away but we got it and the
36:29
unfortunate thing with Stallone and Schwarzenegger is they waited just 10 years too long i do want to say about
36:34
Pacino's performance here and we all know that uh when I'm up for it I do a
36:41
Brian Deama podcast and I've talked about Scarface and I've talked about Carito's Way and I've talked about my
36:47
admiration of Pacino as an actor but this movie and I didn't look
36:54
at his filmography to track it but it seems like this movie is the start of
37:02
the I don't the over-the-top unh hinged Alpuccino
37:07
performance sure yeah can you believe he's 85 now eh yeah you think about it
37:13
the Godfather was over over 50 years ago at this point it's crazy this movie is
37:18
30 years ago 30 years ago it shouldn't feel like a 30-y old movie but yeah i just can't believe it's been 30 years if
37:24
they made Back to the Future today i know he would travel back to 1995
37:30
i know it's so weird that was yesterday what's up while we're talking about technology or how long it's been the one
37:38
thing that does make this movie feel like it's 1995 is everybody's television
37:46
even the television that Hannah takes from their house when he gets in the fight with his wife everybody's got like
37:52
32 in CRT TVs and even when the guy's watching the hockey game at the end when
37:59
when calls are This is a mansion this guy's living in it's a multi-million dollar mansion and he's got
38:06
a regular CRT TV where you watch now it's like the size of the screens we
38:11
have are just that's the one thing that really dates this movie is the technology everybody's using at least
38:18
especially from TVs we're talking about Alpacino as a character his last name is Hannah but he was married and the woman
38:25
that he marries took the last name as well Hannah she's a divorce a her daughter of course played by 14-year-old
38:31
Natalie Portman So this is pre Phantom Menace it's also pre the professional
38:36
too right i thought she was younger than Professional professional is 91 or two I think oh is it okay remember when that
38:42
film came out the controversy about her being so young and the way it was she was sexualized in that film she was 14
38:49
in this film and it's funny that we get the I wouldn't say it slows down the
38:56
film anyway in that sense because but we just see Al playing dad to a
39:01
stepdaughter to his younger wife the wife is Justine and she is played by an
39:07
actress named Diane Venora now would you know that name if I didn't say the name would you know her from anything no dian
39:14
Venora you know what she looks and sounds like i hate to say this this sounds terrible when I say this but
39:20
she's like the Timu or Wish.com version of to me more yeah I think we could have get to
39:27
me more you get Diane Venora when you don't get to me is that terrible
39:33
no no it's not and by the way the professional was 1994 oh it was still before by year yeah he
39:40
filmed Luke Bassan did LaM Nikita in 1990 oh okay yeah yeah so yeah I think
39:48
The Professional funny enough was the first time I saw Natalie as an actress and okay this is another thing I really
39:55
respect when movies do this and and sinners did this recently as well but
40:00
when you see people on screen that are matched with people that would you realistically see
40:08
together in real life so you have a twice workaholic cop he's not going to
40:14
be dating a supermodel it's true i respect authentic casting in movies and
40:19
when you see people together where you're like of course they're not going to be with Cameron Diaz or something and
40:25
I could have done without the grabby grabby makeout session at the beginning of the film like watching them like just
40:31
kiss it wasn't even like that sexy they were just kissing and kissing and kissing i don't know if I want to see
40:37
this this is not this is not appealing oh and the other funny thing about their home did you catch that their bedroom is
40:44
just upstairs in the loft this Yeah that's the thing as they're having sex I'm like "Where's where's the kid?" Like
40:50
"Where's Natalie Portman here?" She just walks up the stairs and the mom's like half-dressed just after Citus with Al
40:55
al's in the shower getting the get the stuff off him and she's just like lying about the cigarette or the Natalie comes
41:02
in you guys done great have waffles now or Yeah where's my barret it's Yeah where's my hair piece hey is that that
41:08
yeah why did we waste two minutes looking for her her hair barret the Natalie Portman character probably isn't
41:13
necessary aside from the fact that it lends another level of
41:20
character element to Hannah and it shows that he's not a good guy because he's
41:25
being paid to be a good guy he's genuinely a good guy if you look at it he's the only one that really cares about this girl you can even tell the
41:33
mother to a certain extent is a little bit selfish and probably not a great mother and we never see the dad but
41:40
clearly the dad's a piece of [ __ ] that's the reason for her character is to reinforce that Hannah
41:47
is a good guy and not the good guy yeah he's not a piece of ass cuz he was
41:53
actually like did the dad come by and see your daughter Lauren is the name of
41:59
Natalie's character so he's interested enough to make sure he doesn't want to overstep his bounds like I'm not her dad
42:04
but at the same time as a a man should be with his daughter and he's holding the ex-husband accountable better than
42:10
the mother is in a way mhm yeah yeah uh-huh okay so now we're at the scene where they they being of course Robert
42:18
Dairo's character Neil McCaulay they meet up with Wangro at the diner so Wangro at the diner talking to Tom
42:24
Seisborn Val's characters robert comes in and I love where he basically slams
42:30
his head against the table and then the window in the diner and there's a buddy there who watches it and then Tom
42:35
Seismore looks at him like nah don't worry about this and the guy goes back to his paper or whatever and every time
42:40
I see this scene is like this is what I wish I could do to my kids when they're nasty in the
42:46
restaurant oh you're being really loud in the restaurant i always Okay I'm just
42:53
joking if you watch the the way they all move in that sequence where they're all
42:59
at the table before Macaulay gets there and I guess Seismore sees sees Macaulay
43:06
pull up one of them says "I'm going to go to the bathroom." Yeah seismore clears the booth and goes and sits at
43:12
the counter before sitting back down like that you can tell that's all team
43:17
choreography they're still moving and working as a team and it's all unspoken
43:23
i will say this again no offense to Robert's character but as good as he is
43:29
he hired this guy which doesn't make sense and then he wants to off the guy he's about to kill him in the parking
43:34
lot publicly they could have easily just say "Hey let's go to the horse and play cards." It's so weird that they couldn't
43:40
even kill him properly i found their whole ability with this guy really of all the professionalism their inability
43:47
to kill this guy properly is weird yeah i think at the same time you don't want to scare scare the guy but also Wayne
43:54
Gro he's the reason that the movie ends the way it does sure i I know I know
44:02
it's the trope that's the trope i get it callie can't let it go yeah so here's the here's the diner scene here we go
44:13
i had to get it on man he was making a move i had to get it on
44:26
and I love the way Dairo grabs the back of his hair it's great it's a great little sequence and Tom Seismore rest in
44:32
peace buddy i've always liked him i've always liked him in films what about you yes agreed and he was an intense dude
44:40
and he brought that intensity to his acting it was two years ago just two years ago
44:46
that he died the age of 61 it's unfortunate we just watched this scene back and we haven't really talked about
44:52
him other than the fact that he's passed but if you look at Val in that scene
44:58
it's all reactions it's all in his eyes he's just dialed in oh I see yeah yeah i
45:06
love how he's very stoic val stoic and And I got to And I got to say this while we're talking about Valon i'm sorry to
45:12
cut you off later in this movie we see a strung out and then a a shot Val Kilmer
45:18
character but man did anybody play Sick and Close to Death better than Val
45:23
between this movie and Tombstone that's true like you watch both of these
45:29
performances you're like "Dude he looks like he's on his last legs
45:35
he's method acting." Yeah okay so now this next sequence here is just an
45:42
example of the Michael man it's almost like he's saying "Hey I'm Michael Man the director that does stuff like this
45:48
it's Robert Dairo just overlooking the ocean in his apartment but just the coloring the hue and the musical score
45:54
will kick in quietly." So we got the camera set up just there we see the gun put down the
45:59
table daniel's character just walks to the glass wall to look outside and then he just does a classic stand
46:07
camera pans up we had the subtle cue of the
46:13
music he's thinking about the events thus far in the film of course but this shot here that's a very Michael man shot
46:19
there just a part of the face and then it goes into focus of the
46:24
ocean then his face blurs and the coloring and everything what do you think of is that a Michael
46:29
man shot or what absolutely that's the That's the Michael Man aesthetic to a tea yeah so I just like that example
46:36
okay we're going to talk about Val in just a second i think he's the next scene yeah so we get to see a young
46:41
Ashley Jud 27 years old i'm not sure about her haircut was that the cuts of
46:46
this of the 95 i can't remember now i don't know if Friends was big then but
46:52
I just trying to Yeah in the book you get the whole story of how the two of them end up together oh okay now does
46:58
she think he's a gambler and not a like No she knows who he is in the book not
47:05
to spoil it Sure but she's a working girl in Vegas and he's in Vegas gambling okay
47:13
okay we're going to see a little bit of their domestic life so to speak and I guess they have a kid together which is
47:19
brought up and they have a fight before they go to a party and we've all been there Craig we've all fought with their spouse before we go to a party
47:26
i thought that was like the default yeah that's right yeah come on you got to be
47:31
kidding me honey it ain't worth the risks you take
47:37
for 8,000 like in risk versus reward baby yeah she knows what he does
47:43
of course there yeah there is no point talking to you cuz all you are is a child growing older what's this supposed
47:49
to mean it means we're not making forward progress like real grown-up adults living in our lives because I'm
47:54
married to a gambling junkie who won't listen oh that's the part I got confused about so she's saying he's making money
48:01
off these hits but he gamles it away mhm okay uh yeah i'm not crazy about her
48:06
hair and I like Ashley Jud enough but I feel like they couldn't get Sharon Stone for those roles like Sharon Stone was a
48:13
little too old at that point really 30 years ago sharon Stone was in
48:19
her mid30s probably oh I don't think she's that old now now you're going to
48:24
make me Google her so again Ashley's 27 here and Val is I always like to know
48:32
their ages because of their dating ages so she's 27 as an actress val is 31
48:38
maybe 35 okay that's okay actually that's my spouse and I I'm 8 years older
48:43
than my spouse so that's legit but Ashley she's lovely you don't really hear about her anymore have you heard
48:49
about her recently i think she left the business on her own i liked her my was
48:55
born in 1958 oh she was older
49:01
37 her mom committed suicide within the last couple years
49:07
she said her sister Winona has had public issues it's so that family seems
49:14
like they've carried a lot of weight yeah yeah that's true the singer right
49:20
yeah yeah the judge yeah it's just a weird because she was in everything ashley was in everything for a while
49:26
there but I think she's probably comfortable she's got her money oh and unfortunately it's hard for actresses
49:35
there's actresses that sort of have parts on lockdown like Meil Stre's probably taken all the [ __ ] that Ashley
49:41
Jud would get now yeah merryill Streep has defied all odds with her getting older but still gets great roles yeah
49:47
yeah okay all right so now we're gonna get to the scene where we have Amy Bren Brener how do you say her last name
49:52
brenamman brenamman now she is a little bit younger than Robert I believe uh
49:58
yeah she's only she was born in 64 so she was 30 yeah so she's 20 years Robert's junior hey look legal allowed i
50:06
think the other thing is and we've talked about this on the Sly episodes we've done just because Dairo's
50:11
character was 52 and Pacino's character were 55 doesn't mean that their
50:17
characters were that age oh you mean the actors themselves i know i just I can't help it Craig i always get a kick out of
50:24
it because at the end of the day the people playing like Amy knows her age like she knows how old she is so she's
50:31
acting to be attracted and look Robert's a handsome man don't get me wrong even
50:36
not even then but even at 52 he's a very good-looking guy and she's 30 but you almost wonder is there some daddy issues
50:43
or something she could date somebody like she's she looks young too like she looks a young 30 in this film yeah yeah
50:50
or 20 something year old she says she was 30 on the dot she's 22 years Robert but that's fine good for her she looks
50:57
lovely and she works in the bookstore whatever it is Barnes & Noble or whatever it was and I guess Robert
51:03
Dairo's character goes there all the time gets books she's noticed him this handsome older guy wearing a suit and
51:09
they they bump into each other at the coffee shop and she strikes up a conversation with Robert saying "Hey I I
51:16
got my eye on you you're just this cool looking daddy dude that I want to hit on and this is that scene here and he gets
51:22
kind of like because of his life of course he's like "Why are you asking me so many questions?" Like thinking "Are you a cop are you defenses are always up
51:29
like it's the life that he's he's created for himself where you can't ever
51:35
get complacent." Yeah and so here's that scene here so she's done all this stuff hitting on him and he bites her head off
51:42
a little bit and then he realizes oh she legit is just a librarian or whatever and she's cute so he changes his tone a
51:48
little bit what kind of work you do
51:53
lady why are you so interested in what I read or what I do
52:01
i've seen you in the store from time to time what store missing Engles i went there if you don't
52:08
want to talk to me it's okay sorry I bothered you
52:14
now he realizes like he believes her oh now he makes the face like "Oof I just
52:19
bit this poor lady's head off." And it's interesting how someone who is careful about not exposing himself as a career
52:25
criminal would be like "Why are you so interested in my life?" He would almost want to play a little bit more oh hey
52:31
how's it going and if you don't mind my asking where do you see me from but the fact that he bites her head off almost
52:37
indicates he has a scary past because she plays it very well she's like "Oh this guy's maybe a rough guy." because
52:44
even when he changes his tune she's now hesitant to continue but she does but you can see she's she kind of reassesses
52:50
do I keep talking to this guy because he seemed angry and now he's not yeah i'm sure what happened with Wangro is also
52:57
affecting his mood and his affected you know how he reacts here she was in that
53:03
TV show judging but I love how her name in the show was Amy Gray and her name is like what came first did they call the
53:09
show Judging Amy because she was Amy or did it just happen to work that way okay now what I love is the continue oh let's
53:15
see the tone change here first though it was good
53:20
i didn't mean to be rude i didn't recognize you i work in metals i'm a
53:26
salesman my name's Neil
53:33
i'm 83 yep she would have been better off just giving him the brush yeah now the next
53:41
scene I want to show you so they end up having kitus the first night as one would with Robert and her but before
53:46
they do they have a date at his penthouse or whatever they talk over their family history and all that good
53:53
stuff was there digital film at this time no this was shot on film i believe
53:59
the first movie Michael shot I believe it
54:04
was Collateral yeah Collateral and Miami Vice were shot on on digital digital yeah digital started around what 2000 or
54:12
2001ish i think the second Star Wars prequel
54:19
i thought the first one was as well me but you're right that was shot on film the second one is when Lucas started
54:25
working with digital the reason why I asked check out the scene cuz this is either it looks very digital which is
54:33
okay so it shows Michael Man of course that aesthetic that he goes for but is this a really bad blue screen at the
54:39
same time oh I the scene where they're like on the deck yes so I'm just going to mute it and we don't need to listen
54:45
to the dialogue but look at this i always felt like there was something going on with the scene and I think it might meet it right here
54:54
like that's not very good look I get it's 95 but why not just film at a proper skyline that's why I'm showing
55:01
this because it has a digital look to it but here that's really bad right there you can see it's green screened green or
55:07
blue screen and they but they had to shoot po what do you call it secondary unit has to go get a skyline shot why
55:14
not just shoot them at the skyline all right okay so you can see why we had to do this in parts right Craig there's so
55:21
much that goes on even the first half hour that's why I always told you Heat needed to be a super show you told me
55:27
this has to be a super show eddie told me and we're going to get your thoughts after we record this part you're going
55:33
to share your thoughts on the final shootout but before we get to that I just want to show the classic why did
55:39
L Okay so when Al has his little blow up so we're get to the scene now where Al and his partner played by the famous
55:46
Bubba Gump dude how do you say his name yeah mle
55:52
male Williamson yeah yeah he's the classic him and Forest Gump talk about all the different shrimp they're going to have anyways so he's playing his
56:00
partner but Aluccino's character is talking to some guy about where were you last night blah blah blah trying to get
56:05
information out of him and I'm going to play it before we play
56:10
i'm going to ask you now i should say was this direction given by Michael or is this or did Michael say Al I want you
56:19
to do this out of the blue it makes no sense the way this conversation is going
56:24
or did Al just do it and did he surprise Michael with it here's the thing was yesterday today you're wasting my
56:30
[ __ ] time listen man look you fall in love come on did you fall in
56:35
love last night you went off somewhere just tell me that i I'll settle for it you know what I mean i'll buy that
56:42
give me all you got give me all you got i swear me and my brother i love I love
56:49
it so much i actually had forgotten that scene i forgot that he did that so I'm
56:54
watching this interview with this guy some sort of informant or something so he asked the guy like "Where were you
57:00
last night what's going on tell me what you have did you fall in love that is that why you weren't where I thought you
57:05
were supposed to be?" Whatever the situ It doesn't even matter i don't even It doesn't even matter but the fact that
57:11
why did he Let's just watch that one more time because I think our audience needs to
57:16
see it too just Why does he do that if I was in this interview right now holy crap you scared the crap out of me l V
57:30
i think that's a Pacino thing and I think probably in the script and the direction that Michael Man gave him was
57:37
probably something to akin of you're dealing with a guy from the streets so
57:42
take on sort of a street persona and Al probably got keyed into
57:49
something and Al is the type of actor when he gets an idea and he commits to
57:55
it it might be hard to get him off of it maybe the commentary talks about it and
58:00
I don't have it so maybe I've listened to the commentary and I don't remember does Michael man say "Yeah L surprised
58:07
me with that." But I will say that the next episode part two of he covered will be with Doug and I'm going to start that
58:13
scene with him that's how we're starting because it's in the middle of that scene where your time ended so I'm gonna show that the Doug I just want to hear Doug
58:19
laugh with about it i think it's worth to do it again but before we go let people know where they can find you
58:25
mainly it's my guest spots with you i do have a podcast called The GOAT a Brian Dealama film podcast or fan podcast and
58:33
I know we're on the on this network together so if you're listening to this on this feed if you scroll up or down
58:39
you'll probably see my DeAlma episodes it's been a a couple of weeks since I've done an episode and I had laptop
58:46
problems which prevented it and then also I hit a little bit of a creative wall hopefully I pull myself out of that
58:52
and I'm serving up new content but if you just Google my name Craig Cohen Las
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Vegas you'll probably be able to find a link to all the stuff I do and I'll send
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you the link Ryan if you want to include it tons of podcasts and I also make music that you can listen to and
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hopefully enjoy but either way the thing I really really enjoy the most is doing guest spots on podcasts we do great i
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love having you on so fun you're actually officially the film even though not the episode after cuz we're doing
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more with the Heat but you're the next film the The Insider Man yeah i look
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forward to talking the Insider because I I almost feel like The Insider might be
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the first Michael Man movie I saw in theaters oh wow last weekend Heat and
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Insider I saw all the theaters back to back to back okay yeah 5 I I wasn't
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going to the movies a lot so I was trying to think about the first time I saw Heat and I really think it was like
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on the double VHS release you know it was like the movie was on two tapes like
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you you had to change tapes i don't remember what scene it happens at and aside from that I know I didn't see Last
1:00:01
of the Moheakans in theaters obviously I didn't see Manhunter my dad took us to questionable movies but he even he knew
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not to take us to Manhunter yeah I think The Insider was the first movie interesting yeah and I remember when The
1:00:14
Insider was coming out how I was looking forward to it because of Heat i had already watched Heat on VHS and home
1:00:22
video and had already reversed gone through man's filmography so I remember the Insider
1:00:28
was a movie I was looking forward to i was like "Oh the next Michael Man movie is coming out." So yeah I'm looking forward to talking that movie it's I
1:00:35
think it's a really interesting movie it's going to be great to talk Russell Crow in that movie yeah for sure yeah agreed agreed okay all right thanks for
1:00:41
coming on and thanks everyone for joining us for part one of five that's right we're doing this in five parts and I look forward to doing the other ones
1:00:47
with the other co-hosts and stay tuned for the last episode part five where my
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secret guest co-host will shite all over this film
1:00:58
apparently
1:01:09
heat up here
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[Music] heat up here
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[Music]
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heat up here
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[Music]
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heat up [Music]
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here heat [Music]