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Hosted by Montana Funk, Young Lawyer Rising covers issues pertinent to young lawyers, from newly minted attorneys to lawyers 10 years into practice and beyond. From dealing with the daily grind and career management to social issues and financial, mental, and physical wellness, this show features the voices of young lawyers from across the country sharing their stories and advice to help all lawyers navigate their careers and rise to where they want to be.
Montana Funk (00:13):
This is Young Lawyer Rising, brought to you by the ABA Young Lawyers Division and produced by Moraine Media. Welcome back listeners. This is your host, Montana Funk. Today I'm joined by Gianne Falvo. Mangiro. Gianne is the producing director for the New York team at LHH, where she leads a talented team of attorney recruiters and connecting attorneys with top law firms and corporate departments nationwide. With a proven track record at LHH, gne has established herself as a leading recruiter valued for her expertise by both clients and candidates. Please welcome Gianne to the show. Good morning. Thank you so much for joining me today.
Gianne Falvo Mangiro (00:54):
Thank you for having me. I'm really excited to be here.
Montana Funk (00:57):
Me too. And I always like to kind of jump right into these episodes, but I think for today I want to try something a little bit different because this is a situation where you are actually a tool that lawyers can use to actually kind of help further their career that isn't necessarily going through like a partner or another attorney or anything like that. So I want you to just start off by explaining to the listeners who you are and what it is that you do.
Gianne Falvo Mangiro (01:22):
Yeah, sure. So I am Gianne Falvo Mangiro. I am the producing director of our New York and Connecticut team at LHH. Prior to joining LHH. I was a former practicing attorney. I graduated from New York Law School in 2018, clerked after law school. Practiced at a mid-sized firm in New York City for about a year and a half before then taking some time off to have a child and figure out what my next step was. So I really do understand what goes into a search as do all of our recruiters. We're all former practicing attorneys so we really can understand where our candidates are coming from, what they're looking for, and understand what our clients, the law firms are looking for as well.
Montana Funk (02:09):
Nice. Okay. So how did you actually make the switch then from practicing to wanting to become a recruiter?
Gianne Falvo Mangiro (02:15):
Sure. So when I left working at the firm I was at, it was height of COVID. I was home. I just really wasn't happy. I felt like I was putting in a certain amount of billable hours every year for a nominal bonus or raise at the end of the year, and I wanted to do something a little more entrepreneurial. I'm very money motivated, sales oriented, so I actually got my broker license, my real estate broker license, and I was selling real estate for a little while. I enjoy it. I still do it sometimes on the side, but I decided I wanted to get back into the legal world and I didn't really know what that looked like. I just started looking around on LinkedIn and I connected with one of the people at LHH who then hired me and just wanted to learn more about what they did and it sounded to me like a perfect fit. It really married my love of the legal world, the law, and then also my entrepreneurial side, which I really loved and it's kept me here.
Montana Funk (03:13):
Something you just said that I want to touch on is you had made mention that there are actual firms who hire you, and can you explain when you say that, what that means? I think at least from my perspective, and I'm sure a lot of listeners, we don't actually know how the process works to actually get a recruiter and if it's an overroad thing that you do or how it actually works that you're working for certain firms.
Gianne Falvo Mangiro (03:35):
So I would say for our New York City and Connecticut team and also across the country, we have agreements with probably most of the firms big law firms, midsize firms and boutique firms and small firms in pretty much every market they have retained us. We have agreements with them, they ask us to find specific attorneys with various types of experience, and then we go out and connect with qualified attorneys that might fit in those searches. We also will offer advice to attorneys as well if they're not going to be right for one of the roles. We just try to be upfront with everyone from the start. But the clients that we work with, it's pretty vast. I'm sure you guys would maybe be surprised to know that it's probably most firms out there.
Montana Funk (04:23):
Yeah, no, that is super surprising. Like I said, as someone who is on the outside of the recruiting process, I wasn't actually aware that that's how it works. And it's interesting to know that there's firms that come out and seek you guys and hire you to do the job rather than you just being there with the attorney that's looking for the job. So I think that's really interesting. And are you able to explain once you're hired by a firm, how do you then take that and then go recruit for attorneys and how do you decide what firm they're going to go to, et cetera?
Gianne Falvo Mangiro (04:55):
So we aren't necessarily hired by them. We have an agreement with them. If we successfully place a candidate there, they pay us a fee. So I think a lot of people don't realize that working with a recruiter to a candidate is free. You're not getting charged anything. We are just advocating for you bringing your resume in front of partners and recruiting departments that maybe you wouldn't have known about otherwise or advocating and making your experience jump off the page in such a competitive market. Sometimes it's hard to stand out, but because we've worked with some of these firms for so long, we know their hiring practices, we know the players we're able to help you tailor your resume, draw out specific experience that you might have on there, and also advocate for you throughout the process and prep your submission materials and all of those
Montana Funk (05:44):
Things. Do you think there's a certain way that a young attorney or even someone who's in law school who's going to go into practice, how would you even know if you need a recruiter or what's something that would tip someone off to, I should look for a recruiter? How do you even go about that process?
Gianne Falvo Mangiro (06:00):
Yeah, so I would say that we're always happy to have conversations with young attorneys that are trying to figure out what's next. I would say when thinking about using a recruiter, it's generally going to be beneficial for someone who has a few years of experience, at least under their belt. A good recruiter will let you know that they don't want to tie a fee to you and your application if maybe you are very junior or you're just starting out or you're looking to pivot practice areas while everyone's qualified and bring something great to the table, there's a select few times when using a recruiter is not going to be of your benefit.
Montana Funk (06:39):
Okay. And when are those times, I mean, when do you think a recruiter, I know you said that you probably want a couple of years of practice behind your belt, so is there certain criteria that you look for when you're determining maybe a recruiter isn't something that that person should use?
Gianne Falvo Mangiro (06:52):
So I would say just if you're very junior, just coming out of law school, probably not beneficial to use a recruiter. We're always happy to have a conversation. Other than that, I would say it's probably going to be beneficial to use a recruiter in your search. A good recruiter will have a conversation to understand what you're looking for in a move, what's important to you, learn more about you generally, and then we will connect you with posted and unposted opportunities you might not have ever known about on your own. We prep all of your submission materials for a complete application package. We can help you prep those materials, your resume writing sample, we'll do then all the communicating with the firm for scheduling interviews. We'll then interview prep, you make sure you feel confident going into the interview. We might know some of the people you're going to be meeting with and what they generally look for to hire and help you get a little edge there. And then we will negotiate offers and compensation packages as well for our candidates. It's really start to finish full service. It's a full-time job looking for a new role. It can be stressful and we really like to take the pressure off of the candidates we work with and that's our job.
Montana Funk (08:01):
And it's interesting you say all the things that you do because quite frankly, I would not know that there's so many things that recruiters can help you with, such as, like you said, prepping them for an interview or making their materials whole and helping them submit applications. And to me what I'm curious about specifically is if you get somebody who's coming to you and saying, Hey, I want to use your services, I want a recruiter. How are you then looking at that individual and determining what opportunities you think would fit with that person?
Gianne Falvo Mangiro (08:29):
So obviously it's going to take some time and practice, but our team is very tenured and we have a lot of experience under our belt. So once we connect with someone, we probably already have firms in mind that they might be a good fit for. So generally speaking, I'm learning what the person's looking for, whether it's a higher compensation, whether it's a lower billable hour requirement, maybe they want partnership prospects, more hands-on experience, all of those things. So after I've had an initial call with someone, I'll then go back to my internal systems, go back to my team, see what we're working on that they might be a good fit for. And then also opportunistically, I will reach out to different firms and our contacts to see if they would be interested in reviewing someone's materials with this skillset. So it really is of a benefit because we are going to take you to market in a way that you wouldn't be able to take yourself.
Montana Funk (09:23):
Absolutely. It sounds like that, and I do want to take a quick break, but I do think it's important to talk about the process. So when we come back, let's jump into the actual process once you have a recruiter. So one thing you had mentioned was having an initial call with an individual who's using your services. What does that initial call actually look like?
Gianne Falvo Mangiro (09:47):
Yeah, so if I've connected with someone, whether they've reached out or I've reached out to them on LinkedIn, email, phone call, I'll get a resume and we'll just go over their background. So where they went to law school, what they're doing currently, the firms maybe they previously were at, and then generally I will ask them what they're looking for or how much are they looking for in a salary jump? Is there a billable hour requirement that they're looking for? Is there a specific type of firm they're targeting? Maybe they're at a mid-sized firm and they'd love to go to a larger firm with more resources, or maybe they want to go to a boutique firm and really be able to specialize and get more hands-on experience. So I'm really just trying to understand their personality, where they've been, what they're currently doing and where they'd like to go.
Montana Funk (10:35):
Is there ever a situation where you match somebody with a firm or a couple of firms that you think are appropriate and then realize maybe down the road, okay, that's not a great personality match, and if so, is there things that you can do to remedy it for that client to say, okay, this one wasn't something that you're interested in, but we can look into alternate options?
Gianne Falvo Mangiro (10:53):
Totally. Yeah. I mean that happens all the time. We're of course submitting people to several different opportunities. We're not sending you to one firm and hoping for the best. We're trying to cast a wide net if they're interested. So we're always doing something with someone's explicit consent. We're never sending a resume into a bunch of different firms without the candidate wanting that. But there's plenty of times it's not going to be a good match, whether it's right off the bat the firm isn't interested in seeing the materials further, they don't want to bring them in for an interview or maybe they've gotten to the interview stage and maybe the firm or the candidate thinks it's not going to be a good match. We just try to take that feedback and then apply it moving forward to be able to pivot and focus on opportunities that might be a better fit instead.
Montana Funk (11:39):
And I know you'd also had mentioned asking on that initial call thing such as type of law they might want to practice or billable hours, et cetera. What do you do if someone comes to you and says, Hey, I've been practicing for two years, I don't really know what I want to do or where I want to go or what an appropriate billable requirement is, but can you just kind of help me with a starting point?
Gianne Falvo Mangiro (12:00):
Yeah, I'm always happy to have an exploratory call with someone if they're really not sure what they'd like to do in that type of situation where someone maybe is looking to pivot to a different area of the law, using a recruiter probably isn't going to be their best bet just because they would kind of be starting from ground floor there and they might be better off submitting resumes directly to the firm without a recruiter's fee attached. And if that's the case, everyone on our team would be very upfront about that, happy to give some advice, but we would let them know that they're probably going to be best served running their search on their own.
Montana Funk (12:33):
Okay, perfect. That's really good to know. And do you have any advice to listeners right now who want to maybe use a recruit but don't know how to go about finding one?
Gianne Falvo Mangiro (12:42):
Sure. I would just say do your research, do your diligence, look on LinkedIn, see how long the person's been doing this. Are they part of a well established group? Are they working for a company that's been around for a long time? Do they personally have any reviews? Do they have any information about the candidates they've personally placed? And you could always kind of interview them as well, right. It goes both ways. We want to make sure it's a good fit for us and our clients, and then we also want to make sure the candidates are excited about working with us as well.
Montana Funk (13:12):
Awesome. Awesome. And I know that you had talked about too, finding this firm where someone okay is a good fit. Maybe you end up placing them. So does your job also extend past just finding positions for people? Can you help with, let's say someone's like, okay, I want this place, but I don't know how to negotiate salary or negotiate terms, things like that. Do you guys provide advice in that area?
Gianne Falvo Mangiro (13:35):
So we would be able to represent someone to any firm that we've presented their materials to. If let's say they had submitted their materials on their own to affirm, we're always happy to give advice, but we wouldn't be able to represent them in any negotiations for that.
Montana Funk (13:50):
Right. And then, sorry, I should say when you guys have given the materials to a firm on behalf of someone, you are able to then help them through the negotiation
Gianne Falvo Mangiro (13:58):
Portion? Oh yeah, a hundred percent definitely. That's a large portion of our job, whether the person is looking to negotiate start date or would like to counter offer, we would handle all of that and we're happy to take the lead there.
Montana Funk (14:12):
Awesome. Okay. Well, I want to take another break, but I do want to get into that process and what that looks like when we get back. So if you have somebody that you're helping place, you're helping them get their materials, go through the interview process and they determine, okay, this firm is somewhere that I think could be a good match. We're getting deeper into the interviews, but then they're saying, okay, I am a little bit nervous. I don't know how to determine what a good salary is or what would even be appropriate to ask for. How would you help the individual through that?
Gianne Falvo Mangiro (14:46):
Yeah, so I would say before even submitting any applications, and this could go for working with a recruiter more generally if someone's just doing it on their own. In many states, job postings never require salary range to be provided for a role. If it's been posted, this is kind of the best place to start to see if the salary range the firm has provided is within the range you had in mind for a new role. If you're looking for a job outside of a state that requires a salary range and none is provided, I would say it's always good to do some research ahead of time to try to understand the firm's typical compensation range if you can, or if they follow more of a lockstep model where there wouldn't be much room for negotiation. I would then say, if you're going to a first round interview, don't discuss numbers.
(15:31):
If you're asked, which it happens, a lot of times you can just let the firm know. At that point you're looking to be compensated commensurate with your class year and experience level in line with the responsibilities that the position is asking. You want at this point, the firm to fall in love with you, your personality and the work you've done, and then get into numbers later if you've made it to the offer stage or we take you to the offer stage and offer has been presented, and let's say the salary number is below maybe what you had in mind or found in your research, you can certainly counter. While it is rare, a counter offer can make a firm reconsider and even withdraw an initial offer. So we always like to tell candidates that counteroffers can come with risks, but if you'd still like to proceed with a counter offer, the best practice really would just be to reiterate your desired salary and explain why it's warranted with something quantifiable such as the goals that are achieved money made there and understanding that the firm also might not accept that counter offer.
Montana Funk (16:36):
You had mentioned lockstep, and for some listeners who may not know what that is, can you briefly just explain what that lockstep program would look like in a salary situation?
Gianne Falvo Mangiro (16:45):
Yeah, so a lot of firms out there follow a lockstep model, meaning that if you are a second year associate at the firm, you are paid a specific base salary and bonus and that each year that you progress with the firm, your salary would increase lockstep. So maybe it raises by $10,000 every single year and it follows that progression. So because it really is a fixed salary rate and scale, there really is not much deviation that can be done there.
Montana Funk (17:15):
Okay, that makes total sense. And I know you had mentioned a couple of things in terms of if you do do a counter offer that may be seen by some firms as kind of a situation where maybe they don't want to offer you the job anymore, et cetera. Are there other basic rules that you would tell our listeners about how not to negotiate or when it may be inappropriate to make a counter offer?
Gianne Falvo Mangiro (17:36):
Yeah, I would say that if let's say you submitted your resume on your own and the application said that the range was going to be 130 to 150,000 and you submitted materials, okay, with that range, let's say the offer comes in at one 40, right? Squarely within the middle of the range. If you're looking to get something like 175,000, it probably wasn't best to even be submitting an application to the firm at that point just because they had squarely given a range there. You got an offer within the range, it's probably not going to be appropriate to counter with something outside of the range the firm had even provided. But using that same example, if the range provided was 130 to 150 and maybe you receive an offer for 120, that would be a great opportunity to counter to the firm and just say, Hey, I was really interested and I remain really interested in this opportunity, but I was really hoping to get a salary within the res that you guys provided for the listing. Is that possible?
Montana Funk (18:39):
Is there ever a situation where someone may go back to back a couple of times actually when negotiating a salary?
Gianne Falvo Mangiro (18:45):
I mean, it certainly can happen. I would just say that when using us specifically, we try to really set the stage for the candidate and let them know ahead of time what compensation will likely look at. And also if let's say the candidate had a salary requirement in mind, we will always let the firm know ahead of time. That way when we get to the offer stage, there shouldn't be many surprises and we really shouldn't be far off if off at all.
Montana Funk (19:12):
That makes a lot of sense. Would you say that there's any other considerations outside of salary that someone should be looking into or something specifically that you actually discuss with the applicant when you're going through this process? Like I said, besides just the salary portion of it, what other things are you looking for when you're going through that application?
Gianne Falvo Mangiro (19:30):
Yeah, I would say so. Using us or on your own, you should definitely take a look at the entire compensation package and compare it to what you have now and what you were hoping to get. So outside of just your base salary, you should take a look at the billable hours that the firm requires. You should also take a look at 401k, whether the firm provides any match there, the health insurance, paid time off in office schedule, if there's any paid family leave, if that's important to you. Just taking the whole compensation package into account and not just looking at the number on the salary. Because a lot of times that is not telling the whole picture.
Montana Funk (20:10):
And I want to ask this because I think a lot of listeners may have this question, but in terms of negotiation, is there any ever room for negotiating those terms as well as salary, like saying, Hey, I want more PTO or maybe family leave is important to me. Is there the ability to negotiate in those areas?
Gianne Falvo Mangiro (20:29):
I would say billable hours is going to be something fixed. The firm's health insurance and 401k generally something that we're not able to negotiate even paid time off, that's kind of hard as well because it's generally a firm wide policy. I would say an in-office schedule. So maybe the firm a requirement of three days in the office and you were really hoping to be home an extra day. That's something you could always discuss with the firm and try to see if they are flexible at all for you to maybe work from home an additional day. That's something that certainly could be negotiated.
Montana Funk (21:04):
Okay, perfect. I think that's helpful. Just I know a lot of people, especially earlier in their careers when they are doing a switch, don't know, okay, what are things that are appropriate to ask versus inappropriate to ask? So to have that kind of guidance is helpful. And I think that's something too, some people are going to be wanting to know from your point of view, if there is somebody who's, let's say at a job, they're already there, but they are like, okay, I love it here, but I feel like I'm not getting compensated. I don't think that this is appropriate. I want more, but I don't want to leave and I'm scared that that might make them either let me go or create tension in the office. What advice do you have to people who, like I said, want to stay at their job but just don't know how to negotiate for more money because they think that they're worth more?
Gianne Falvo Mangiro (21:50):
Sure. I would say come prepared to your year end review. So have you met and exceeded your billable hour requirements? Come prepared to talk about that, come prepared also to discuss all the amazing things you're doing at your firm. Have you volunteered on any committees? Have you worked with several different partners and helped across the office? Have you mentored some junior associates and helped there? Are you overall a good firm citizen? Why should the firm want to keep you and keep you here and compensate you more? What justifies that come prepared to discuss all those things to make the case for yourself?
Montana Funk (22:28):
And on the flip side of things, I do think it's also important to talk about your relationship with the recruiter itself. So on your side, your perspective as well as from what you've seen from maybe applicant's perspectives, how does an individual know or maybe a recruiter know if the person they're working with isn't a good fit?
Gianne Falvo Mangiro (22:47):
So there's been plenty of times where it's maybe just not going to be a good personality match or maybe the person is really unresponsive, maybe they've told me one thing, they've let me know that this is what they're looking for in a search salary wise, firm wise, and if I've gotten them exactly what they're looking for and they're still maybe not sure what they want, maybe I'll ask them if it's time to take a pause in the search and just figure out, prioritize what they actually want. I think just being upfront and honest with the recruiter you're working with, letting them know what you're looking for, what you're not looking for, and just being communicative is the most important thing you could do.
Montana Funk (23:27):
It sounds like at least that if someone is with a recruiter that they're not finding is a good match, they shouldn't be upset or they shouldn't be embarrassed to say, this person isn't necessarily a good match for me. Can I have somebody else?
Gianne Falvo Mangiro (23:40):
So generally speaking, everyone at our company is great. So if you're with any of us, I would say you're in good hands. If you think X, you're working with someone that's just really not taking your search seriously or maybe you found out they've submitted your materials widely without your consent, that's certainly a huge red flag that should never be happening. So I think at that point you could let the person know you'd like them to stop your search and you'd like to look elsewhere.
Montana Funk (24:06):
Okay, perfect. And something else that I'm curious about is if you have an individual who maybe has been in practice and then has decided that they want to switch gears outside of practice as you had done, is that something that recruiters can also help with or is that, I guess what advice would you provide to somebody who's saying, okay, I don't want to be in practice anymore or active practice, but I still want help searching for something appropriate for me?
Gianne Falvo Mangiro (24:33):
So I would say it's really going to depend whether or not a recruiter can help you and assist is going to depend on the experience you had prior to practicing and how closely it aligns with wanting to go back to that. Our team focuses on attorney search, but our company places all different types of people in all different practices, whether it's marketing, engineering, accounting, and finance. So if someone wanted to pivot back to an experience they've had previously, I'm sure one of our recruiters or recruiter generally could help. But I would say it's really going to be a case by case basis whether a recruiter can assist or not.
Montana Funk (25:13):
I know you also had mentioned that it's not the best idea to use a recruiter if you are just coming out of law school and haven't had a couple of years of practice behind you. Would that opinion change for individuals who maybe have done a clerkship for a couple of years? Do you think that it's appropriate for them to use a recruiter
Gianne Falvo Mangiro (25:30):
Also? It's really going to depend. A lot of times a firm will not want to pay our fee for someone coming out of a clerkship. It's going to depend on the candidate, their specific experience, and also going to depend on the firms they're looking to target.
Montana Funk (25:44):
That's a ton of good information. I think that all makes sense. And like I said, it's a lot of things that I didn't know about with the recruiting process and such as that you guys are a free service and how you guys can help and just how much that you can help with. So to end the episode, I do think it's important. If you don't mind just giving an overview again to our listeners about really what you guys can do, the list of services that you can help with and how they can find you guys if they're thinking, this is something that I want to look into.
Gianne Falvo Mangiro (26:12):
So working with a recruiter could be very beneficial to you. If you've had a couple of years experience and you're looking to maybe pivot to a different firm for whatever reason it may be a good recruiter will have an initial conversation again with you. Understand what you're looking for generally will help prep your submission materials and your application package, help tailor it to the specific opportunities you are looking to target. We will have access to roles that are unposted that you might not have known about on your own. We'll then help submit those materials over to the firm for you. Be in communication with the firm directly, schedule you for interviews, do any interview prep for you for each round of interviews. This way you feel completely confident walking into your interviews and well, and then once it gets to an offer stage, we're happy to negotiate your compensation package for you and make sure it's a good fit for both you and the firm. And even after we've placed you, we do stay in contact with you and make sure everything's going well.
Montana Funk (27:17):
Well, I appreciate you telling us just everything that you guys do. Like I said, there was a lot of services that I didn't even know, and I'm sure a lot of our listeners are also happily surprised to see everything that they can look for and that they can get help with. I know that if I were to ever need a new job that this is something I would definitely want to look into. So if you don't mind telling your listeners where they could actually find you if they have further questions or just want to reach out, get a recruiter, et cetera, where should they go?
Gianne Falvo Mangiro (27:42):
Sure. So they can connect with me on LinkedIn and message me there directly. My name on LinkedIn is gne Alvo Mangi. Or they could send me an email confidentially. My email is G-I-A-N-N-E-F as in Frank, a@lhh.com.
Montana Funk (28:04):
Well, thank you so much for joining me today. Like I said, this is a really cool conversation, opened up my eyes and I'm sure a lot of our listeners to a resource out there that a lot of people don't know about. So I appreciate it and thank you again. Thank
Gianne Falvo Mangiro (28:16):
You so much Montana. It was great to speak with you and great to be here.
Montana Funk (28:20):
Well, listeners, that was our show. Thank you as always for tuning in. If you'd like what you heard today, you know where to find us and please recommend our show to a friend. Until next time, I'm your host Montana Funk and you've been listening to Young Lawyer Rising, brought to you by the ABA Young Lawyers Division and produced by Moraine Media.