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The Garden State Law Podcast discusses all things legal in the state of New Jersey. Presented by lawyers from Saiber LLC, the Garden State Law Podcast highlights trending topics in litigation, transactional law, real estate, and more.
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Welcome back to the Garden State
Law Podcast.
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I'm your host, Tim Lough.
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Joining me today is Saiber family
law practice chair Stacey Cozewith.
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Stacey,
thank you for joining us. My pleasure.
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So, Stacey, you joined the firm
what about six months ago?
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Maybe less the beginning of 2025.
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Yeah, the end to January. Yeah.
So very exciting.
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We're very excited to have you here.
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So for our listeners and our watchers,
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you may know that Saiber is a full service
firm.
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We're celebrating our 75 years
this year on time.
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Just in April, just two months ago.
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75 years.
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But we've never had a family law practice.
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So, you're here to launch our practice.
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It's very exciting.
We love having you here.
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So I want to talk a little bit about you.
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Your career, family law specifically.
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And then, at the end, if we can get into
maybe a little more fun questions
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to get to know Stacey,
then. So let's start with that.
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You work in family law.
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You do?
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Tell us a little bit about your career
and what made you decide
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that family law is right for you?
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Sure.
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So, after law school,
I clerked for the presiding family
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law judge and Somerset
County judge Thomas Dilts.
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And I got to see the behind the scenes,
first time.
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Really? What goes on in family law court?
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And I really like the idea
of helping people.
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Prior to that, in law school,
I was super interested in cases,
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where family issues came up,
whether they were can law, business law,
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why do businesses sometimes break up
because of family law issues.
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And so it definitely sparked
my interest prior to clerkship.
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And then after my clerkship,
it just really solidified seeing
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what good a court could do
and what good attorneys could do.
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That that was the right place for me.
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I also like the fact that I'm
not sitting behind a desk all the time.
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I mean, court.
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Person side of it.
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Right?
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And I'm also,
you know, writing briefs sometimes.
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And, you know, it's a good mix for me.
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And I really like helping people,
not just pushing paperwork,
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but actually helping people.
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And so, after that,
I went to work for, a firm
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where I basically spent most of my career
over 20 years until coming to saber.
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Yeah. So I have to imagine family law.
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It's like there's two sides of it, right?
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So practice of law is difficult
in and of itself.
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Right?
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Whether you're an M&A attorney
and you're closing transactions, or you're
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a commercial litigator dealing with
complicated commercial litigation matters.
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But so you have that part of it.
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But then there's the emotional side
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of things that most lawyers
don't quite deal with in the,
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you know, the way that you do, where
you have to have the sympathetic side
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and really getting to know, you know,
the personal lives of your clients.
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So I feel like it's complicated
on a whole other level than what
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a lot of lawyers have to deal with.
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It is it's
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not just one area of the law, really,
because you're dealing with real estate.
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You're dealing with businesses
and their valuations.
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You're dealing with custody and
parenting time and that aspect of the law.
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But at the end of the day,
you you hit the nail on the head
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with the empathy part.
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And I feel like
I really connect with people.
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And, you
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know, I go about things,
trying to resolve things amicably.
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That's always my hope and my goal
to do things efficiently and work
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towards the best end for both parties.
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However, I am not afraid to get into court
and can be aggressive when I need to be.
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One of my friends told me,
the prettiest bulldog you'll ever meet.
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So there's that aspect to.
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And I like to fight for my clients
when necessary.
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Yeah.
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So when you came to the firm,
I got to know family law
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a little bit better.
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And naturally,
you think of divorce, right?
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That's
the first thing that pops your mind.
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But there's this
whole other suite of things that you do.
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You know, it's funny, this morning when
I was dropping my kids off at, the school,
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my son was just kind of made a joke
that he was listening
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to the podcast recently,
and I said, it's funny
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you say that
because I'm, I'm recording today.
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And he said, what are you talking about?
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I said, family law. And he said,
what is that about?
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And I said,
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well, you know, divorce is a thing,
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but there's this whole other set of things
I had mentioned.
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Prenuptial agreements.
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And he's like,
what is that about? Can you.
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So he had a very heavy conversation
that way.
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But, you know, maybe explain to us
a little bit about beyond just,
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you know, the divorce,
but what are the other components
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do you handle on a day to day,
week to week, month to month
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basis that encompass family law
that maybe we don't think about?
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So you mentioned prenuptial agreements.
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I do those, and then,
you know, divorces is a big subset.
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So custody, parenting time, child
support, alimony
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distribution of your assets
and your debts post judgment.
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You come back
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because maybe now
your child is going to college
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and you can't agree
on who's paying for what.
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Yeah. You know, modification of support.
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Maybe your spouse is now
cohabitating with somebody.
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Or God forbid, you lose
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your job or,
you know, unemployment situations,
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disability situations
that support needs to be modified.
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We also deal with grandparent visitation,
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issues, adoption.
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That's always the good part of family law.
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Yeah.
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But, you know, everything
that you would deal in, in family
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court as things are things that I handle,
domestic violence is a big one.
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Yeah.
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So going back to divorce,
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and even to best spouse
to a certain extent,
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it must be an interesting role
that you have to play
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because you have the softer side
with your clients,
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and then you have to be, as you
said, a bulldog.
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How do you balance those two things
and what is your approach?
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Typically, maybe you expand a little bit
about how you're aggressively advocating.
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You have to be at the softer side
at one side.
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Then you have to turn in, you know,
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you have to turn the switch
and you have to be you have to be tougher.
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Maybe you could talk a little bit about,
you know, the the.
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Process. Yeah. The process really.
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So with my clients, you know,
that's where the empathetic side comes in.
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I really connect with them
because I want to help them.
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And so that's the softer side.
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We want to work towards a goal.
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We, we, develop an action plan, and we go
step by step over what they can expect
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and what's going to happen
next often time, which is, you know,
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frustrating for parties is that
I can't say this is going to happen next
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because it depends on what the other side
does, how reasonable they're being.
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Yeah.
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I, we would always like to resolve things,
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but I'm not going to recommend
you resolve things in an unfair manner.
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And if one side is being unreasonable,
that's when you usually have to litigate.
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Yeah.
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So with my adversaries, you know,
I work in family love and working families
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for over 20 years.
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You deal a lot with the same attorneys.
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And you see them, you know, in,
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outside
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of the office, inside the office,
and that's helpful
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because I know their personalities
and I know how to deal with them.
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And so we normally work collegiately
together, because at the end of the day,
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if the parties are having an argument,
I wasn't there.
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My adversary wasn't there.
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Yeah. It does.
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No, it does not do the clients
a service for us to talk about.
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Well, your client did this
and my client did this.
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No. Instead the attorney and I, my advisor
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and I can figure out
how can we resolve this
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if we can't, if the other side's
being completely unreasonable, that's
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when court is an option
and it's a last resort.
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But we utilize it
maybe to put some fire under their feet
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because they don't want to get a divorce
and they're not doing anything.
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And we want to move this case along.
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Or maybe because
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one side refuses to pay for the things
that they're supposed to be paying for.
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You're supposed to maintain
the financial status quo.
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And if one side skips town or stops paying
the bills, then you have to go to court
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and get an order requiring them to
to do what they need to do.
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Yeah. That's interesting.
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Dealing with the adversary as attorneys
and seeing them so often.
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Is that something that you mind is
are you trying to stay in touch
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with these people?
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I know you go like to the bar
events and stuff.
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And is that a big part of your,
you know, your business
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process of having good relationships
with the attorneys of your adversaries?
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It is because, you are going to see
these people time and time again.
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And so and you're going to work together
time and time again.
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And so we both want the same thing.
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We both want a resolution
that's going to be best for our clients
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and to end it as quickly as possible.
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Sometimes the parties, don't want that.
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Or sometimes I have an adversary
that maybe I don't work with very often
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who maybe was hired
and doesn't exclusively practice.
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Sure. Yeah.
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You want an attorney?
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If you're going through a divorce,
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you want an attorney that practices
family law as their main practice.
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Yeah, because sometimes when people
dabble in it, they don't understand
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the court rules.
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I know
I'm going to be telling my client, look,
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if you went to court,
this is what's likely to happen.
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This is in the range of reasonable
of what a court could order you to do.
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And I want my adversary telling
their client exactly the same thing.
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This is the range,
so that we know when we come to the table
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and try and resolve it,
we both know maybe if you get something,
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better than what a court would order.
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On one hand,
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you're giving up and waving something
that's maybe not as important to you.
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On the other hand,
that's more important to your spouse.
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And so that's the right way to negotiate
and to mediate.
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And when you have an adversary
that you work with, often, you know what
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they're telling the other side.
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And so that's important. Yeah.
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So when you have a client or prospective
client come to you, what does a deal ideal
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scenario look like for your an ideal
client is someone who is what are they?
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Are they well prepared?
Do they have all their ducks in the row?
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They have documented things.
What what is like okay.
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They really seem to know
you know, what they're doing.
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And I feel comfortable moving forward.
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So often.
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A lot of parties
don't know anything about their finances.
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Maybe,
they weren't the one who paid the bills.
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Often in marriages or in relationships.
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One party takes out the garbage and one
party orders the new school clothes.
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You divide and conquer,
especially when you have children.
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And so I find too often
one party didn't deal with the finances,
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doesn't know where the bank accounts are,
doesn't know what the total income is.
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Yeah, maybe their spouse
even signed the tax return for.
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They just don't have that information.
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I might be one of those people.
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And that's fine.
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I don't mind clients like that
because we'll get to the bottom of it.
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We'll find all the information.
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We'll use subpoenas, depositions,
and the information has to be forthcoming.
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And that's what
the whole discovery period is.
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From the time that you decide
this is the next step.
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If it's a divorce situation
until the time of trial,
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that period is called
the discovery period.
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And what we do is we're
trying to ascertain what your assets are,
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what the values of those assets are,
what are the debts, what are the values?
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What are your monthly expenses
and what is the income coming in?
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Once we have numbers on everything,
then we can have a discussion of okay,
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well this is the right support number
or I'll take this asset.
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You take that asset until we have a clear
picture of everything.
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It's hard to negotiate.
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So, in that period, we'll find all that.
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So an ideal client
doesn't have to know everything.
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An ideal client has to be honest.
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An ideal client should be,
you know, unreasonable.
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They should not be unreasonable
to use a double negative.
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They should be reasonable.
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You get a lot of clients
who are not honest.
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And you later
find out here where she told me this is.
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I could have helped you more had I not.
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I wouldn't say a lot, but you do get some
and the other part is you want people.
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You know, some people say,
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I want to do x, y or Z
because it's going to hurt the other side.
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I don't care
what impact that has on my children.
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I don't care what impact
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it's going to have on the total
financial package that I receive.
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I just want to hurt the other side.
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And so that anger, you're
not ready to go through divorce.
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You obviously need therapy.
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And I would never, as an attorney,
as a mother, as just a human, I
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would never allow a party to do something
that's going to hurt the children.
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Yeah.
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Even though I'm not necessarily
an attorney for the children there,
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there are people who, do that work.
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As a gal, sometimes I've been appointed
in that way from a court, but,
00:12:15:03 - 00:12:17:21
I would never assist a client
to do something
00:12:17:21 - 00:12:20:09
that's going to hurt them or the kids.
00:12:20:09 - 00:12:23:11
And so that's obviously not an ideal
client.
00:12:23:11 - 00:12:24:13
Yeah. Okay.
00:12:24:13 - 00:12:26:12
So so level
head is really what you're saying.
00:12:26:12 - 00:12:29:12
Levelheaded, normal. Reasonable. Yeah.
00:12:29:14 - 00:12:33:09
And who, you know, understands
that it's going to take time.
00:12:34:12 - 00:12:35:26
And I'm ready to hold their hands
00:12:35:26 - 00:12:39:21
and walk them through what is really,
honestly an awful process.
00:12:39:21 - 00:12:40:03
It is.
00:12:40:03 - 00:12:44:07
I wouldn't wish the worst litigation
or any type of family law litigation,
00:12:45:00 - 00:12:45:24
my worst enemy.
00:12:45:24 - 00:12:51:08
It is an awful process, and part of it is
the court system is not ideal.
00:12:51:08 - 00:12:53:11
It's just like any other government
agency.
00:12:53:11 - 00:12:55:24
We have wonderful judges in this state.
00:12:55:24 - 00:12:57:07
There's not enough of them.
00:12:57:07 - 00:12:59:03
And the process does not go smoothly
00:12:59:03 - 00:13:01:10
because everyone's
permitted their day in court.
00:13:01:10 - 00:13:04:15
And there are certain protections
put in place for people,
00:13:04:15 - 00:13:07:15
such as the Prevention of Domestic
Violence Act.
00:13:07:15 - 00:13:10:15
The Division of Child protection
and permanency
00:13:10:20 - 00:13:13:25
that people can use as a weapon
during a divorce matter.
00:13:13:25 - 00:13:16:01
And so there's a lot of pitfalls
00:13:16:01 - 00:13:18:10
that I can help you
navigate and navigate through.
00:13:18:10 - 00:13:19:29
Hold your hand,
00:13:19:29 - 00:13:22:24
you know, during the process
and hopefully get to the end
00:13:22:24 - 00:13:24:12
as quickly and efficiently.
00:13:24:12 - 00:13:26:06
So you talked a little bit about finances.
00:13:28:13 - 00:13:31:13
How does this really, you know,
I've met the age where
00:13:31:13 - 00:13:33:05
I've known a lot of people
have gone through the process.
00:13:33:05 - 00:13:37:00
They say, God, it's expensive, and it's
a really difficult thing to go through.
00:13:37:01 - 00:13:40:01
How does this really impact a family
00:13:40:01 - 00:13:42:15
financial going through?
00:13:42:15 - 00:13:44:10
You know, the process is devastating.
00:13:44:10 - 00:13:45:10
Yeah. It's devastating.
00:13:45:10 - 00:13:49:00
So you know you can have hundreds
of thousands of dollars in income,
00:13:49:00 - 00:13:52:13
millions of dollars in income, where
tens of thousands of dollars in income.
00:13:52:13 - 00:13:55:25
At the end of the day,
most parties are not huge savers.
00:13:55:25 - 00:13:56:21
Some people are.
00:13:56:21 - 00:13:58:10
And that's great if you are.
00:13:58:10 - 00:14:00:18
But most parties spend what they earn.
00:14:00:18 - 00:14:04:00
And so when you're going
from one household to now two households,
00:14:04:06 - 00:14:07:11
you're not going to have enough money
to maintain the standard of living.
00:14:07:13 - 00:14:07:20
Yeah.
00:14:07:20 - 00:14:10:08
You're also now dividing
all of your assets in half,
00:14:10:08 - 00:14:14:23
and you're each going to live on those
separately with separate expenses.
00:14:15:15 - 00:14:16:11
So it's hard.
00:14:16:11 - 00:14:17:21
But you know what?
00:14:17:21 - 00:14:20:21
At the end of the day,
you have to be reasonable and fair.
00:14:20:22 - 00:14:24:17
And most parties who are going through
this process are going through the process
00:14:24:17 - 00:14:27:13
because they're going to be happier
at the end.
00:14:27:13 - 00:14:30:15
And you can always money is you know it.
00:14:30:24 - 00:14:32:16
You can't be buried with it. Right.
00:14:32:16 - 00:14:35:20
And at the end of the day,
your happiness is what's important.
00:14:35:20 - 00:14:39:04
And that's what I'm going to help
you do to come out the end, at the end
00:14:39:11 - 00:14:42:11
with the most safety, the most security,
00:14:42:25 - 00:14:45:15
financially, that you can have,
00:14:45:15 - 00:14:48:15
while still being reasonable and fair
and move on.
00:14:48:20 - 00:14:49:25
We talked a little bit about
00:14:50:25 - 00:14:53:06
what you look for an ideal client.
00:14:53:06 - 00:14:54:11
What about the other way around?
00:14:54:11 - 00:14:59:25
What should an individual is considering
divorce or, you know, any areas?
00:14:59:25 - 00:15:00:15
Family law?
00:15:00:15 - 00:15:03:15
What should they be looking for
specifically when, you know,
00:15:03:24 - 00:15:06:24
kind of canvasing the landscape
to see who's out there?
00:15:07:09 - 00:15:08:22
Is it just a personality match?
00:15:08:22 - 00:15:12:25
What should they be focused on in terms
of hiring a family law attorney?
00:15:13:05 - 00:15:17:24
So certainly my relationship with a client
is like any other relationship.
00:15:17:24 - 00:15:21:06
You want to connect, you want to feel,
you said personality matching.
00:15:21:06 - 00:15:22:06
That's important.
00:15:22:06 - 00:15:23:16
You want to feel like.
00:15:23:16 - 00:15:26:16
Not necessarily.
You have a new best friend.
00:15:26:18 - 00:15:29:17
But you want to feel like you can relate
with this person.
00:15:29:17 - 00:15:30:28
You can talk to this person.
00:15:30:28 - 00:15:33:19
You feel comfortable with this person
because you're going to be dealing with
00:15:33:19 - 00:15:36:15
the most intimate details of your life
and a. Lot. Right?
00:15:36:15 - 00:15:37:01
And you want to
00:15:37:01 - 00:15:40:06
feel like you can trust this person,
that you're on the same wavelength,
00:15:40:24 - 00:15:43:24
that they get back to you quickly.
00:15:43:24 - 00:15:46:07
So you know that that's important.
00:15:46:07 - 00:15:50:04
But you also want to feel, of course,
that the attorneys competent, knows
00:15:50:04 - 00:15:53:29
the law and knows what they've been doing,
have sufficient experience in,
00:15:54:18 - 00:15:57:24
you know, with regard to any issues
that are affecting you.
00:15:58:14 - 00:16:03:02
And so that's what I bring to the table,
both the, relationship,
00:16:03:11 - 00:16:07:04
you know, my clients who come to me,
I can usually relate to them.
00:16:07:04 - 00:16:09:12
And we have a good relationship.
00:16:09:12 - 00:16:11:21
I have staff or a department.
00:16:11:21 - 00:16:13:06
So we have a wonderful firm.
00:16:13:06 - 00:16:17:24
Whereas if I'm in court or otherwise,
you know, in a meeting
00:16:18:16 - 00:16:22:07
and a client needs an answer,
we have associate attorneys,
00:16:22:07 - 00:16:26:04
we have, paralegals and staff
who can get them to me
00:16:26:04 - 00:16:31:06
or get their question answered, scheduling
appointments and things like that.
00:16:31:06 - 00:16:34:24
So it's important that you have constant
contact with your attorney.
00:16:35:00 - 00:16:38:10
And as we spoke about,
I have over 20 years of experience
00:16:38:10 - 00:16:41:10
doing all aspects
and exclusively family law.
00:16:41:16 - 00:16:46:22
So when my clients come to me, they know
that I know what I'm talking about,
00:16:46:22 - 00:16:51:09
and I'm confident in both my litigation
and in my resolution.
00:16:52:11 - 00:16:52:25
So you and
00:16:52:25 - 00:16:55:25
I will talk about reality TV
every so often.
00:16:55:28 - 00:16:58:28
It's a little bit of a guilty version.
00:16:59:00 - 00:17:01:24
You know, I find it interesting
because I've not a lawyer.
00:17:01:24 - 00:17:04:24
Spent 20 years nearly within law firms.
00:17:06:01 - 00:17:11:03
And we see, you know, a lot of legal
matters get brought up in TV and reality
00:17:11:03 - 00:17:15:29
TV. What is it that separates, you know,
how is it different
00:17:15:29 - 00:17:19:29
from your aspect of, of law
than what you see on TV?
00:17:19:29 - 00:17:21:03
Even it's not reality TV.
00:17:21:03 - 00:17:22:08
If you see them in the courtroom,
00:17:22:08 - 00:17:25:06
how is it different
between what the average person sees?
00:17:25:06 - 00:17:27:24
Because oftentimes
if someone's going through a divorce,
00:17:27:24 - 00:17:31:09
it's their first real experience
in dealing with a lawyer.
00:17:31:09 - 00:17:33:18
I settle for maybe
closing on a house or something.
00:17:33:18 - 00:17:36:25
This is like the first time they're really
getting in it right where it does.
00:17:36:29 - 00:17:41:02
Or is a line drawn where like, this is
reality and that's that's TV stuff, right?
00:17:41:02 - 00:17:44:29
Well, you know, TV, everything happens
within the half hour hour show, right?
00:17:45:00 - 00:17:46:23
Everything moves so. Quickly. Yes.
00:17:46:23 - 00:17:48:09
And that is not reality.
00:17:48:09 - 00:17:51:04
Sure, the divorce process is lengthy.
00:17:51:04 - 00:17:54:09
Ideally, you come to me,
we resolve the matter before it.
00:17:54:09 - 00:17:56:05
You've been filing anything
with the court,
00:17:56:05 - 00:17:58:11
but that's the ideal situation.
00:17:58:11 - 00:18:01:11
And things
don't always happen in an ideal manner.
00:18:01:16 - 00:18:02:22
It could take a year.
00:18:02:22 - 00:18:05:16
It could take more,
depending on the county,
00:18:05:16 - 00:18:08:14
and depending on
if we have to litigate any aspect of it.
00:18:08:14 - 00:18:11:14
So that's certainly not what happens on TV
in the courtroom.
00:18:12:00 - 00:18:13:10
For example, on suits,
00:18:13:10 - 00:18:16:25
Harvey gets a case, he argues it once
and by the end of the episode.
00:18:17:09 - 00:18:18:18
Yeah. Wouldn't that be nice?
00:18:18:18 - 00:18:21:00
Yes. That's not how it happens.
00:18:21:00 - 00:18:23:25
Every case is not necessarily
argued between the court.
00:18:23:25 - 00:18:26:05
Every case is not necessarily
as adversarial.
00:18:26:05 - 00:18:26:20
Right.
00:18:26:20 - 00:18:31:02
I feel like on a lot of these TV shows
and it's either it's one of the two,
00:18:31:02 - 00:18:34:07
either it's like a slimy deal
where you know, it's
00:18:34:07 - 00:18:38:06
not good for the client
or it's litigated and heavily,
00:18:38:22 - 00:18:41:09
you know, with the attorneys
butting heads.
00:18:41:09 - 00:18:43:19
And that's not
reality either, you know? So,
00:18:45:02 - 00:18:45:29
but there
00:18:45:29 - 00:18:50:17
was a good wife, the good wife I with,
I definitely felt
00:18:50:17 - 00:18:54:27
that that was a little more
in terms of the courtroom scenes, real.
00:18:54:27 - 00:18:58:14
That's the really the only legal show
that I've seen where it was like, okay,
00:18:58:14 - 00:19:02:12
I could see that her arguments in court
were somewhat similar.
00:19:02:18 - 00:19:04:29
We have no juries and family law.
00:19:04:29 - 00:19:07:29
Oftentimes
you see juries in the courtroom scenes.
00:19:08:12 - 00:19:13:06
But, you know, just as with any other
issues, the doctor shows every issue.
00:19:13:06 - 00:19:14:23
It's it's not really real.
00:19:14:23 - 00:19:15:27
We have to make it interesting.
00:19:15:27 - 00:19:18:27
It's entertainment for sure.
00:19:18:29 - 00:19:21:04
And real life can be boring
sometimes it can.
00:19:21:04 - 00:19:23:10
But you know what? Family
law. It's never boring.
00:19:23:10 - 00:19:25:29
It's like people say
who do different areas of the law.
00:19:25:29 - 00:19:31:02
Like everyone who practices
tax law and like, how do you like.
00:19:31:02 - 00:19:34:05
I like numbers, sure,
but how do you do that?
00:19:34:05 - 00:19:36:22
Right? And my friends, like,
how do you do family?
00:19:36:22 - 00:19:37:19
Let me listen.
00:19:37:19 - 00:19:39:08
It is never boring.
00:19:39:08 - 00:19:41:23
You can't make this stuff up. Yeah.
00:19:41:23 - 00:19:43:20
I mean, I've seen it all.
00:19:43:20 - 00:19:49:00
So if someone is looking, is facing down
something that is something horrific
00:19:49:00 - 00:19:52:00
that they could imagine, don't worry
that I haven't seen it
00:19:52:00 - 00:19:55:21
because I feel like I have seen
just it all people.
00:19:55:21 - 00:19:56:10
You know what?
00:19:56:10 - 00:19:59:19
What happens behind closed doors
sometimes you wouldn't expect.
00:19:59:29 - 00:20:03:04
And so that's, you know, in in my sense,
it's, it's
00:20:03:04 - 00:20:06:04
an interesting part of family law
because it's certainly never boring.
00:20:06:05 - 00:20:07:27
You say that
and then next week something happens
00:20:07:27 - 00:20:10:15
and you go, never seen that before.
Yeah. Exactly.
00:20:10:15 - 00:20:11:26
Right. You can't make it up.
00:20:11:26 - 00:20:15:02
So it certainly feels like sometimes
reality TV.
00:20:15:02 - 00:20:17:28
But but it's not.
So someone who's contemplating divorce,
00:20:19:04 - 00:20:20:06
what do you recommend to them?
00:20:20:06 - 00:20:21:21
What are the first steps
that they should do?
00:20:21:21 - 00:20:23:21
I would imagine
there's a little bit of a checklist
00:20:23:21 - 00:20:26:21
that should go off through someone's head
before they even make the call.
00:20:27:03 - 00:20:30:03
What are the things that you would advise
people to do
00:20:30:10 - 00:20:32:04
and kind of
get to get their affairs in order?
00:20:32:04 - 00:20:36:06
Well, especially if you're a spouse
who doesn't know anything
00:20:36:06 - 00:20:39:06
about your assets,
your debts, your income and your expenses.
00:20:39:26 - 00:20:44:18
Look at the mail, check out,
you know, ask to see the tax returns,
00:20:45:08 - 00:20:48:05
you know, asked to be involved
in any financial decisions.
00:20:48:05 - 00:20:50:20
Obviously,
you don't want to alert the other party
00:20:50:20 - 00:20:53:20
if necessarily this is something you're
trying to keep under wraps, but
00:20:53:25 - 00:20:57:09
it could be an innocent question
as to you wanting to understand
00:20:57:19 - 00:21:01:16
where the income is, what happens,
what the bank accounts are.
00:21:02:03 - 00:21:05:03
So a good place to look for that is what
00:21:05:06 - 00:21:08:05
what bank accounts do
are shown in the mail.
00:21:08:05 - 00:21:09:12
I have a discover letter.
00:21:09:12 - 00:21:11:08
I have a one from Bank of America.
00:21:12:10 - 00:21:12:25
And so just
00:21:12:25 - 00:21:15:25
keeping a track of what
financial institutions you see.
00:21:16:21 - 00:21:20:03
And obviously if you open up an email,
what the expenses are,
00:21:20:12 - 00:21:23:12
that's an important thing
that I always tell parties.
00:21:23:14 - 00:21:27:11
Certainly a call with an attorney
is is vitally important
00:21:27:11 - 00:21:31:06
to understand what your next steps are,
because they could vary
00:21:31:06 - 00:21:32:03
on the circumstance.
00:21:32:03 - 00:21:35:01
But one of the things
you should certainly keep and I've said
00:21:35:01 - 00:21:38:01
certainly now about three times, it's
okay,
00:21:38:15 - 00:21:39:15
but I'm certain of that.
00:21:39:15 - 00:21:42:15
It you should always be
00:21:42:15 - 00:21:45:26
aware of your rights
under the prevention of domestic violence.
00:21:45:26 - 00:21:46:16
Okay.
00:21:46:16 - 00:21:50:20
So under that act, you have the ability
and should always call the police
00:21:50:20 - 00:21:51:19
if you feel threatened.
00:21:51:19 - 00:21:54:19
If you feel harassed, it can happen.
00:21:54:21 - 00:21:57:22
Initially starting with the court
calls, domestic contre temps,
00:21:57:22 - 00:21:59:24
which is a normal argument
between a husband and wife.
00:21:59:24 - 00:22:03:00
It can get heated,
there can be horrible things said.
00:22:03:12 - 00:22:07:22
But when it rises to the level of threats
to your life, it's your life.
00:22:07:22 - 00:22:12:00
Or to,
your health or to harm you or harm others.
00:22:13:10 - 00:22:16:03
You want to make sure
that the police are on your speed dial.
00:22:16:03 - 00:22:20:21
You should know how to record things
on your phone, both video and audio,
00:22:20:21 - 00:22:24:18
to be prepared, because oftentimes
these type of domestic violence matters.
00:22:24:23 - 00:22:25:21
He said, she said.
00:22:25:21 - 00:22:26:24
And so if you have a video
00:22:26:24 - 00:22:30:28
or other recording,
you have a leg up of what really happened.
00:22:31:02 - 00:22:34:22
Is that state, is that new Jersey specific
or this is So it's based
00:22:34:22 - 00:22:37:29
on federal legislation,
but new Jersey, the the Prevention
00:22:38:00 - 00:22:40:08
Domestic Violence
Act is a new Jersey statute.
00:22:40:08 - 00:22:41:03
Okay.
00:22:41:03 - 00:22:42:29
Which permits parties.
00:22:42:29 - 00:22:45:22
It's it in different states.
It's called different things.
00:22:45:22 - 00:22:47:25
In new Jersey,
we have temporary restraining order.
00:22:47:25 - 00:22:50:15
It's ultimately the. Same in New York,
we have orders of protection.
00:22:50:15 - 00:22:50:24
Right.
00:22:50:24 - 00:22:54:18
So and and the length
and permanency of these orders can
00:22:55:03 - 00:22:57:02
vary based upon each state.
00:22:58:09 - 00:22:59:08
And the important part
00:22:59:08 - 00:23:02:12
is, no matter what state you're in, is
you want to call the authorities.
00:23:02:12 - 00:23:03:27
If you feel threatened or harassed.
00:23:03:27 - 00:23:07:05
And when parties
initially go through a divorce matter,
00:23:07:05 - 00:23:08:24
they're oftentimes living together.
00:23:08:24 - 00:23:11:17
And that can be a very toxic situation.
00:23:11:17 - 00:23:14:17
So you think you know
someone you marry them.
00:23:14:18 - 00:23:16:12
But things can change on a dime.
00:23:16:12 - 00:23:17:25
And so I always tell my clients,
00:23:17:25 - 00:23:21:00
especially when they have
initially consulted with me, those things
00:23:21:00 - 00:23:24:09
look for the financial institutions
as to where you keep your money.
00:23:24:17 - 00:23:27:20
Make sure that you understand,
because knowledge is power.
00:23:27:28 - 00:23:32:08
All of the aspects of a divorce
and what you could be entitled to
00:23:32:13 - 00:23:35:14
and make sure you're on high alert
should there be any domestic violence.
00:23:35:16 - 00:23:36:00
Yeah.
00:23:36:00 - 00:23:39:00
And obviously one of the big fallouts
is how we're treating with,
00:23:39:04 - 00:23:42:04
the custody of the children.
00:23:42:06 - 00:23:45:03
What is the default with, you know,
if you're a married couple living
00:23:45:03 - 00:23:48:14
married for 15, 20 years, you have to
you have two children.
00:23:48:14 - 00:23:51:22
Is there a you know, it always seems just
from the outside looking in
00:23:52:04 - 00:23:55:04
the the the mother gets the deference.
00:23:55:04 - 00:23:57:08
But I don't know that
that's actually the case.
00:23:57:08 - 00:24:01:01
How does that get treated
in the court system or how do you kind of
00:24:01:10 - 00:24:04:06
go down that process of is it a 5050
00:24:04:06 - 00:24:07:17
split or, you know, what is that like?
00:24:07:27 - 00:24:09:20
So there's two types of custody.
00:24:09:20 - 00:24:12:09
There's legal custody
and there's physical custody.
00:24:12:09 - 00:24:16:03
Legal custody means you are making major
decisions with regard to your children.
00:24:16:13 - 00:24:19:13
And generally that is split 5050.
00:24:19:24 - 00:24:22:13
It is the rare chance when you don't have
00:24:22:13 - 00:24:25:13
legal, physical, joint legal custody.
00:24:25:17 - 00:24:28:00
And that would be
when one parent has been proven
00:24:28:00 - 00:24:31:02
incapable of making major decisions
on behalf of the child.
00:24:31:08 - 00:24:34:11
So generally the default is joint
legal custody.
00:24:34:23 - 00:24:36:23
Physical custody.
00:24:36:23 - 00:24:37:09
It's tough.
00:24:37:09 - 00:24:40:21
So long ago,
when I first started my practice,
00:24:40:21 - 00:24:44:20
I wouldn't necessarily say
the mother was the default, but the parent
00:24:44:20 - 00:24:49:00
who did most of the work for the children,
the one who primarily took care of
00:24:49:00 - 00:24:53:08
the children, would continue to primarily
to take care, take care of the children.
00:24:53:08 - 00:24:54:28
And oftentimes that was the mother.
00:24:56:21 - 00:24:57:15
So use the gender
00:24:57:15 - 00:25:00:15
stereotypes that just that often was,
00:25:00:18 - 00:25:04:15
now more so in the latter
half of my career,
00:25:04:23 - 00:25:09:02
I've seen courts
recognize that both parents
00:25:09:11 - 00:25:13:04
have the right
to take care of the children,
00:25:13:04 - 00:25:16:20
even if that wasn't their primary job
prior to the divorce.
00:25:16:28 - 00:25:19:25
They can become
that can become their joint
00:25:19:25 - 00:25:22:29
or primary job subsequent,
depending on the situation.
00:25:23:05 - 00:25:27:23
And so more and more, I've seen a trend
towards 5050 physical custody.
00:25:27:23 - 00:25:32:11
Now, that means that a true physical cases
where is the child's play.
00:25:32:11 - 00:25:33:21
They're headed knee. Right.
00:25:33:21 - 00:25:37:09
So if you have six out of 14 overnights
00:25:37:09 - 00:25:40:19
in a two week
span, it's not joint physical custody.
00:25:40:19 - 00:25:44:26
It has to be a true shared
where you either switch one week on a
00:25:44:26 - 00:25:49:03
one week off, you do Monday Tuesday,
the other parent does Wednesday Thursday.
00:25:49:03 - 00:25:52:00
And then you alternate Friday,
Saturday, Sunday, something like that.
00:25:53:13 - 00:25:54:21
And so that is
00:25:54:21 - 00:25:57:16
honestly a rare circumstance
where two individuals
00:25:57:16 - 00:26:00:16
who are now divorcing or
00:26:00:20 - 00:26:03:22
and otherwise
dissolving their relationship,
00:26:04:00 - 00:26:07:21
working and, and co-parenting together
in such a smooth
00:26:07:21 - 00:26:10:21
manner, living close to one another,
because you really have to live close
00:26:10:27 - 00:26:13:27
in order to drive the child
to school from both houses,
00:26:14:13 - 00:26:16:11
and pick them up from school.
00:26:16:11 - 00:26:19:06
And so that that is more of a default.
00:26:19:06 - 00:26:23:06
But it is also rare
because it's a high degree of cooperation.
00:26:23:15 - 00:26:26:14
So often one
parent is a parent of primary residence.
00:26:26:14 - 00:26:30:00
So in my example
they would have eight out of 14.
00:26:30:00 - 00:26:33:11
And the other parent would be the parent
of alternate residents, six out of 14.
00:26:33:16 - 00:26:36:18
It could go anywhere from one
00:26:36:18 - 00:26:39:24
overnight and two weeks to almost 5050.
00:26:39:24 - 00:26:42:04
And you'd still be the parent
of alternate residence? Sure.
00:26:42:04 - 00:26:46:22
Does that seem to be the biggest sticking
point with divorces, or is it?
00:26:47:01 - 00:26:49:19
I would imagine it's financial
or it's custody.
00:26:49:19 - 00:26:53:03
So there's always a financial key
and component to it.
00:26:53:11 - 00:26:55:15
So the custody part to. The custody part.
00:26:55:15 - 00:26:59:02
So I will tell clients
to be on the lookout out
00:26:59:06 - 00:27:02:06
that if, one spouse
00:27:02:21 - 00:27:07:11
is surprising them and, pushing
to have more overnights, it could be
00:27:07:11 - 00:27:11:21
because for child support purposes,
you only get credit for the overnights.
00:27:11:21 - 00:27:16:07
So if I take my child out after school,
I give take them to their activities,
00:27:16:07 - 00:27:19:26
I give them dinner and I return them
to the former marital home at night.
00:27:20:03 - 00:27:22:06
I get no credit for child
support purposes,
00:27:22:06 - 00:27:24:24
but if I keep them
and bring them to school in the morning
00:27:24:24 - 00:27:26:01
and keep them overnight,
00:27:26:01 - 00:27:29:11
then I do get credit and it substantially
decreases child support.
00:27:29:15 - 00:27:31:16
So 2% a huge number in new Jersey.
00:27:31:16 - 00:27:33:16
But it but it could be significant.
00:27:33:16 - 00:27:36:12
And so I find that one parent sometimes
00:27:36:12 - 00:27:39:09
is pushing for more overnights
than they would normally do.
00:27:39:09 - 00:27:42:04
So because of the financial component.
00:27:43:12 - 00:27:44:29
But yeah,
00:27:44:29 - 00:27:48:08
so I want to go back to the conversation
I had with my son about Prenups.
00:27:48:24 - 00:27:51:08
And I have to be honest, you know,
when you're watching like a comedian,
00:27:51:08 - 00:27:53:17
they say, oh, yesterday
this happened and there's a joke
00:27:53:17 - 00:27:54:27
and you're like,
that didn't actually happen.
00:27:54:27 - 00:27:58:03
I actually had this conversation
in the car this morning with myself.
00:27:58:05 - 00:28:00:11
No doubt. You. And he said,
00:28:00:11 - 00:28:02:12
you know, I said basically,
you know, let's just say two
00:28:02:12 - 00:28:03:09
people are getting married.
00:28:03:09 - 00:28:04:24
It's a contract. Yeah, it's contract.
00:28:04:24 - 00:28:06:29
And they're in, let's say
they're in their 40s and 50s,
00:28:06:29 - 00:28:08:24
and one person
has several million dollars,
00:28:08:24 - 00:28:10:10
and the other person
just didn't really have any money,
00:28:10:10 - 00:28:13:18
basically, basically contract
saying, like, if this ends, the person
00:28:13:18 - 00:28:17:16
that you know, you leave
with what you came with, right? So,
00:28:18:25 - 00:28:19:05
you know,
00:28:19:05 - 00:28:22:21
the question was, well,
what if you don't have much of anything?
00:28:22:22 - 00:28:24:21
You're you're young, you marry whatever.
00:28:24:21 - 00:28:26:03
You're not savers.
00:28:26:03 - 00:28:30:02
And neither person has much of anything
to, you know,
00:28:30:27 - 00:28:33:22
to, to kind of set forth in a contract.
00:28:33:22 - 00:28:37:13
So who is then
the right person for a prenup?
00:28:37:13 - 00:28:40:08
Is it only just one person has a lot.
00:28:40:08 - 00:28:41:09
And the other person does.
00:28:41:09 - 00:28:44:19
And we just need to make clear
that you're not going to get half of this.
00:28:45:15 - 00:28:48:16
Or are there benefits
of getting a prenuptial agreement
00:28:48:16 - 00:28:51:21
that extend beyond just,
you know, let's make sure
00:28:51:21 - 00:28:54:21
that we have we're leaving
with what we came with.
00:28:55:05 - 00:28:58:05
So prenups, it's a anyone,
00:28:59:01 - 00:29:00:26
good for anyone. Right.
00:29:00:26 - 00:29:06:08
Often the two common scenarios that I see
in my office for Prenups are one
00:29:06:13 - 00:29:10:10
where there's a young couple that maybe
their family has substantial assets.
00:29:10:10 - 00:29:14:29
They're they are due to inherit or
they are being put into their names now.
00:29:14:29 - 00:29:20:02
And so the key component of that prenup
is, as you said, what is mine is mine.
00:29:20:02 - 00:29:23:08
Now, as of the date of our marriage,
what's yours is yours.
00:29:23:16 - 00:29:27:06
And when if we co-mingle it
or if we utilize it
00:29:27:06 - 00:29:31:10
for a marital enterprise, it doesn't mean
that it's now marital funds.
00:29:31:19 - 00:29:33:27
And so I'll give you an example of that
in a second.
00:29:33:27 - 00:29:34:21
And the second,
00:29:36:16 - 00:29:39:09
scenario that
I get common is maybe a second marriage.
00:29:39:09 - 00:29:42:25
And, and that party wants to make sure
that maybe they had children
00:29:42:25 - 00:29:43:26
from the first marriage,
00:29:43:26 - 00:29:46:10
that their children are protected
and assets that they earned.
00:29:46:10 - 00:29:49:10
And saved for their children
are not part of the marital status.
00:29:49:22 - 00:29:52:27
Now, those both of those scenarios
00:29:52:27 - 00:29:57:04
have to do with the issue of equitable
distribution, equal distribution
00:29:57:17 - 00:30:00:16
is the distribution of all your assets
and all your debts.
00:30:00:16 - 00:30:01:12
From the date
00:30:01:12 - 00:30:04:12
that you got married, to the date
someone filed a complaint for divorce.
00:30:04:12 - 00:30:07:19
So everything you earned is marital
during your marriage
00:30:07:25 - 00:30:11:00
and everything you've saved
or any debt you've incurred.
00:30:11:16 - 00:30:14:21
That doesn't include assets
earned from prior to your marriage,
00:30:14:21 - 00:30:17:21
and it doesn't include any inheritance
you've received during your marriage.
00:30:18:00 - 00:30:22:00
Those are separate assets,
but it's not, likely
00:30:22:00 - 00:30:24:10
if you've been married,
let's say ten years
00:30:24:10 - 00:30:27:10
and you came into the marriage with an IRA
in your name alone
00:30:27:17 - 00:30:30:18
that you just forgot about it,
you just let it sit there.
00:30:30:18 - 00:30:33:15
You didn't contribute to it.
You didn't take money from it.
00:30:33:15 - 00:30:36:00
You didn't,
roll it over into another account.
00:30:36:00 - 00:30:37:10
You just let it sit there.
00:30:37:10 - 00:30:39:27
If you just let it sit there,
then maybe you don't need a prenup
00:30:39:27 - 00:30:42:05
because that's your separate property
and you don't need it.
00:30:42:05 - 00:30:43:02
That's not common.
00:30:43:02 - 00:30:46:23
Normally, let's say
I want to buy a house with my spouse.
00:30:46:23 - 00:30:49:21
Well,
maybe I may use some of my inheritance.
00:30:49:21 - 00:30:53:19
I may use a gift from my parents
as pre inheritance,
00:30:53:19 - 00:30:57:04
or I may cash out my own way
for this down payment.
00:30:57:13 - 00:31:01:02
And now I have a property, that I put,
let's say
00:31:01:15 - 00:31:04:15
$100,000 as a down payment on,
00:31:04:24 - 00:31:08:24
my spouse didn't have access to any funds
and didn't put the down payment.
00:31:09:04 - 00:31:11:23
And we're divorced ten years later.
00:31:11:23 - 00:31:17:10
And I want, you know, if we didn't have
a prenup, that would be considered marital
00:31:17:10 - 00:31:21:09
because I put it down on the house,
I put both names on it.
00:31:21:13 - 00:31:25:13
So under case law,
I technically gifted it to my spouse.
00:31:25:22 - 00:31:29:12
We've been married and living there
for ten years as our primary residence.
00:31:29:17 - 00:31:33:22
The court's not likely to award
an unequal distribution of that.
00:31:34:05 - 00:31:37:00
Now in new Jersey,
we have equitable distribution, not equal.
00:31:37:00 - 00:31:41:12
And there are statutory factors which
include where did the money come from?
00:31:41:12 - 00:31:42:27
So you have an argument
00:31:42:27 - 00:31:46:21
to get an unequal distribution
if you put in all the down payment.
00:31:46:21 - 00:31:48:00
Absolutely.
00:31:48:00 - 00:31:51:04
But the longer you've lived in the home,
the harder,
00:31:51:26 - 00:31:54:18
the more of an uphill battle that can be.
00:31:54:18 - 00:31:55:07
Right.
00:31:55:07 - 00:31:59:28
And so with you have a prenup,
you don't have to worry about co-mingling,
00:31:59:28 - 00:32:04:01
which is when you intermix
your separate and marital assets
00:32:04:06 - 00:32:07:24
because it's clear in your agreement,
the contract that you signed prior
00:32:07:24 - 00:32:12:00
to your marriage, that
even if you use this money for a home,
00:32:12:00 - 00:32:15:00
even if you put it in joint names
at some point,
00:32:15:06 - 00:32:18:06
you're still going to be given
your separate property
00:32:18:06 - 00:32:21:08
back at the end of the day,
so you don't have to worry about if,
00:32:21:16 - 00:32:25:26
let's say you have a bank account,
you worked hard prior to your marriage,
00:32:25:26 - 00:32:29:22
you saved all of your bonuses,
and you have a bank account of $100,000.
00:32:29:22 - 00:32:30:24
And now you're married.
00:32:30:24 - 00:32:32:28
Especially in the beginning part
of your marriage,
00:32:32:28 - 00:32:35:12
you're taking from that bank account
to pay a mortgage.
00:32:35:12 - 00:32:36:19
That's a marital property.
00:32:37:21 - 00:32:41:08
And so if you do
that now, you've co-mingled that $100,000
00:32:41:08 - 00:32:45:01
you had prior to your marriage,
and that could be subject to distribution
00:32:45:01 - 00:32:49:03
if you have a prenup that's yours
and yours alone, it doesn't matter
00:32:49:03 - 00:32:53:06
if you utilize some of it to pay down
a marital enterprise like your home.
00:32:53:17 - 00:32:57:25
So I mean, that's one of the reasons
that's one key issue that prenups
00:32:58:05 - 00:33:02:08
look to Prenups
also consider can consider alimony.
00:33:03:10 - 00:33:06:06
I never really recommend it
because I'm not a fortune teller
00:33:06:06 - 00:33:08:13
and neither are usually
or any of my clients.
00:33:08:13 - 00:33:11:19
And so we don't know who's
going to take time off of work to care
00:33:11:19 - 00:33:16:28
for any, future born children who's
going to be really, really successful,
00:33:16:28 - 00:33:21:00
who may not be as successful,
who is going to have a disability?
00:33:21:19 - 00:33:24:11
Who's going to not be able to be employed,
is going to have
00:33:24:11 - 00:33:27:11
a sickness or some other reason
why they can't earn money.
00:33:27:11 - 00:33:29:17
And so at the time
when you go to get a divorce,
00:33:29:17 - 00:33:33:06
if you've waived your right to alimony,
be that significant disadvantage.
00:33:33:06 - 00:33:36:08
And those waivers are upheld
because the court looks at,
00:33:36:16 - 00:33:39:15
was the agreement unconscionable
at the time it was entered?
00:33:39:15 - 00:33:40:15
Not at the time.
00:33:40:15 - 00:33:43:06
You're seeking to get a divorce,
so at the time was entered.
00:33:43:06 - 00:33:47:24
If you're on equal footing,
you know, you tough it out.
00:33:48:00 - 00:33:49:03
There's nothing you can do.
00:33:49:03 - 00:33:51:27
So that's an issue that Prenups can deal
with.
00:33:51:27 - 00:33:54:29
Prenups
also usually deal with, your estate.
00:33:55:12 - 00:33:59:29
So you're saying when you enter
into a prenup that you don't
00:34:00:00 - 00:34:03:15
it doesn't matter what the law provides,
such as my examples about,
00:34:04:01 - 00:34:06:19
co-mingling assets and,
00:34:06:19 - 00:34:09:10
you know, separate assets versus
marital assets.
00:34:09:10 - 00:34:12:28
You're agreeing in this contract
to deal with your assets in a certain way.
00:34:13:05 - 00:34:15:07
And the same thing goes
for estate matters.
00:34:15:07 - 00:34:19:16
So under new Jersey law, if you are not
named in a state of your spouse
00:34:19:16 - 00:34:20:29
and they predeceased you,
00:34:20:29 - 00:34:24:10
you can claim an elective share,
which is one third of the estate.
00:34:25:05 - 00:34:28:15
And so usually in Prenups,
we waive that right to elect a share,
00:34:28:15 - 00:34:32:15
because you're saying, look, my will,
and whatever state administration
00:34:32:15 - 00:34:35:24
I do subsequent to
this prenup is going to control,
00:34:35:24 - 00:34:39:27
and I don't want the state to interfere
with what I decide to do with my assets.
00:34:40:24 - 00:34:45:05
So there's two sides of that coin,
both in a divorce situation and in.
00:34:45:06 - 00:34:47:02
If one party predisposes the other.
00:34:48:01 - 00:34:49:12
So much to think about.
00:34:49:12 - 00:34:51:00
Sorry. I went on and on there.
00:34:51:00 - 00:34:55:16
Now, I mean, it's, it really kind of shed
some light is like how much is involved?
00:34:55:23 - 00:34:58:00
Yeah. Typically like,
oh, okay. Is that going to split in half?
00:34:58:00 - 00:34:59:12
And here's the state and split in half.
00:34:59:12 - 00:35:02:05
But there's so much nuance to it.
00:35:02:05 - 00:35:05:02
Shifting gears a little bit,
I feel like I would be remiss
00:35:05:02 - 00:35:08:18
not to mention I and I am doing
so only because I know you've
00:35:08:26 - 00:35:11:20
you've written an article or two
and you sent out a couple panels.
00:35:11:20 - 00:35:15:26
How is artificial intelligence
impacting family law right now?
00:35:16:16 - 00:35:20:10
And, is if the answer is not too much yet.
00:35:20:10 - 00:35:21:19
But here's where it's going.
00:35:21:19 - 00:35:24:19
What are the things that people
should start thinking about at this point?
00:35:25:01 - 00:35:28:12
So one of my colleagues,
said something to me, which
00:35:28:12 - 00:35:33:16
I think really rings true, and they said,
I will not replace US attorneys,
00:35:33:22 - 00:35:38:04
but the attorneys who embrace
AI will replace the attorneys who don't.
00:35:38:05 - 00:35:41:03
Yeah. And I think that's very true.
00:35:41:03 - 00:35:42:11
And it's very true today.
00:35:42:11 - 00:35:46:15
We all use AI in our everyday
lives, from spellcheck to,
00:35:47:13 - 00:35:50:22
how when we someone leaves us a voicemail
and it's summarized
00:35:50:22 - 00:35:54:27
or how someone, you know, we get an email,
we get the summary of the email,
00:35:55:22 - 00:35:58:22
those type of things are AI
and they're useful.
00:35:58:24 - 00:36:01:28
So like, my phone is always listening
and suggesting different things.
00:36:02:12 - 00:36:02:26
That's all.
00:36:02:26 - 00:36:05:16
I that's all artificial intelligence.
00:36:05:16 - 00:36:08:22
I feel like I'm going to start getting ads
for divorce attorney when we leave now.
00:36:08:22 - 00:36:10:18
Hundred percent. You will.
00:36:10:18 - 00:36:12:11
Hopefully they'll be free. Yes.
00:36:12:11 - 00:36:14:12
Right. But,
00:36:14:12 - 00:36:16:04
so, you know, it's in our
00:36:16:04 - 00:36:20:05
everyday lives, some tools that we can use
as attorneys, not just family attorneys,
00:36:20:05 - 00:36:23:28
but all attorneys,
we can use AI tools to be more efficient.
00:36:23:28 - 00:36:26:28
So, for example, let's say I get,
00:36:27:01 - 00:36:31:23
you know, hundreds and hundreds of pages
of credit card statements and my,
00:36:32:22 - 00:36:33:12
my client
00:36:33:12 - 00:36:37:11
alleges that
her husband, has a girlfriend in France,
00:36:37:16 - 00:36:41:09
and he's spending thousands,
hundreds of thousands of dollars on her.
00:36:41:20 - 00:36:46:29
And I want to not have my client
pay for my paralegal to sit there and go
00:36:46:29 - 00:36:50:16
through hundreds and thousands of pages
of credit card statements.
00:36:50:27 - 00:36:53:27
Instead,
I can upload those credit card statements.
00:36:54:12 - 00:36:57:07
To a program that is paid for.
00:36:57:07 - 00:37:01:03
You want to make sure that
when you use these programs like ChatGPT
00:37:01:15 - 00:37:06:11
or Adobe that have AI components,
you're using the paid for programs
00:37:06:11 - 00:37:10:03
because the paid for programs,
the plus programs offer security.
00:37:10:13 - 00:37:15:07
And you certainly would never want
to upload any documents as a a platform.
00:37:15:07 - 00:37:16:03
That's not secure.
00:37:16:03 - 00:37:19:20
Sure, but you can utilize
one of these platforms to scan
00:37:19:20 - 00:37:23:23
for expenses outside the U.S for expenses
00:37:23:23 - 00:37:26:23
over $1,000 over $500.
00:37:26:25 - 00:37:30:16
And while you may not get each
and every AI is imperfect,
00:37:31:02 - 00:37:35:00
just like us as humans were imperfect,
you're going to get a good starting point
00:37:35:00 - 00:37:36:28
for things like that. You could use AI.
00:37:36:28 - 00:37:41:05
Let's say my client has crypto
and my discovery
00:37:41:05 - 00:37:44:18
requests don't address,
whether they have Bitcoin.
00:37:45:10 - 00:37:48:03
I could use
AI to help me come up with a question.
00:37:48:03 - 00:37:50:11
Instead of spending hours
trying to figure out a question,
00:37:50:11 - 00:37:52:01
they can give me suggestions.
00:37:52:01 - 00:37:55:19
So I can be certainly very useful
in our everyday practice,
00:37:56:06 - 00:37:58:03
and make us more efficient.
00:37:58:03 - 00:38:01:15
Which is why I think that quote rang true,
because you're going
00:38:01:15 - 00:38:04:15
to want to hire
the attorneys who are more efficient.
00:38:04:20 - 00:38:07:28
You certainly can't use
AI to write legal briefs for you.
00:38:07:28 - 00:38:08:21
There's so many,
00:38:09:27 - 00:38:12:27
cases out that are make the news
every week
00:38:12:27 - 00:38:16:19
about attorneys being sanctioned
for writing briefs that cites
00:38:16:19 - 00:38:19:24
you fictitious cases
that you know, don't happen.
00:38:20:13 - 00:38:23:25
So I can be useful for starting points
for arguments,
00:38:24:19 - 00:38:27:18
whatever the case may be,
but you have to double check and triple
00:38:27:18 - 00:38:30:18
check everything that is,
I generated for sure,
00:38:30:19 - 00:38:33:19
especially
before providing it to the court.
00:38:33:28 - 00:38:36:10
So, you know, in those ways,
00:38:36:10 - 00:38:39:09
AI is beneficial,
but there's also the pitfalls,
00:38:39:09 - 00:38:43:17
not just the pitfalls
I mentioned about, fictitious cases,
00:38:43:17 - 00:38:46:17
but I can be used to manipulate,
00:38:47:05 - 00:38:49:15
photographs and other evidence.
00:38:49:15 - 00:38:52:09
And that's scary,
especially in the realm of domestic
00:38:52:09 - 00:38:55:10
violence when the evidence is
00:38:55:25 - 00:38:59:19
so much, phone records, videos,
00:39:00:10 - 00:39:04:08
text message,
they can all be fake manipulated.
00:39:04:15 - 00:39:09:21
And so you really have to,
be willing to obtain experts
00:39:09:27 - 00:39:12:27
who can tell you if they're manipulated.
00:39:13:16 - 00:39:16:04
Look for contrary evidence,
00:39:16:04 - 00:39:20:17
you know, and make sure that, you know,
when your client says this texting
00:39:20:18 - 00:39:25:09
never happened or these emails
didn't happen, you, you know, trust them.
00:39:25:09 - 00:39:27:19
And you, you say it's possible.
00:39:27:19 - 00:39:30:20
It's possible that this could be
a deepfake and you investigate that.
00:39:30:29 - 00:39:35:14
Do you think the family court system
is equipped to kind of handle this, or
00:39:36:12 - 00:39:38:21
we're dealing with it
just like everyone else?
00:39:38:21 - 00:39:43:08
Yeah, I think the judge is on a case
by case basis is just like any attorney.
00:39:44:04 - 00:39:47:11
Some attorneys use email constantly.
00:39:47:11 - 00:39:49:26
Some attorneys print out all their pages.
00:39:49:26 - 00:39:52:25
I have a very close friend.
00:39:52:25 - 00:39:57:04
Who's you know, my age,
so not relatively young.
00:39:57:04 - 00:39:59:09
I would give my
son this. I'm in my mid 40s,
00:40:00:09 - 00:40:02:20
who still uses a handwritten calendar,
00:40:02:20 - 00:40:05:22
so everyone's comfort with
technology is different.
00:40:06:19 - 00:40:09:14
And so that rings true, judges.
00:40:09:14 - 00:40:14:23
You know, I hope in this day and age
with all of the panels and informations
00:40:14:23 - 00:40:20:19
and clues and topics, that it is a area
that most judges are aware of.
00:40:20:27 - 00:40:24:02
But you could run into a judge that says,
I don't know what a deepfake is,
00:40:24:02 - 00:40:28:00
and that's where it's my job
as an attorney to make sure you educate,
00:40:28:11 - 00:40:32:04
whoever it is, whether it's, you know,
your opposing counsel or the court.
00:40:32:12 - 00:40:33:00
Yeah.
00:40:33:00 - 00:40:36:20
So one last,
one last family law related question
00:40:36:20 - 00:40:39:20
before we get to some more fun,
get to know Stacy type questions. So,
00:40:41:08 - 00:40:44:22
what advice would you give to a couple
and not just individual?
00:40:44:22 - 00:40:47:22
You mentioned kind of getting your
documents in order and that type of thing.
00:40:48:05 - 00:40:52:06
If a couple is entering into divorce,
what is the one thing
00:40:52:06 - 00:40:55:06
that they should know
advice that you can give them?
00:40:55:21 - 00:40:57:29
Take a step back
and try and be reasonable.
00:40:57:29 - 00:40:59:29
Put yourself in the other's shoes.
00:40:59:29 - 00:41:01:16
I often mediate matters.
00:41:01:16 - 00:41:04:16
As you know, I, I work as an attorney and,
00:41:05:11 - 00:41:09:19
for one party often, but I also mediator
arbitrate matters, and,
00:41:10:13 - 00:41:14:04
couples can hire me
and they have before to help them resolve
00:41:14:04 - 00:41:19:15
the matter without me representing either
one of them, to help end the process.
00:41:19:15 - 00:41:23:11
And so I would say do your best,
especially if you have children,
00:41:23:11 - 00:41:26:12
to take a step back
to not argue in front of the kids,
00:41:27:09 - 00:41:30:27
you and to make sure
you both get attorneys,
00:41:30:27 - 00:41:33:20
you both want to make sure
that you understand
00:41:33:20 - 00:41:36:20
exactly what you're entitled to,
what the law allows,
00:41:36:27 - 00:41:41:05
and have open conversations about where
the money is, where your assets are,
00:41:41:05 - 00:41:42:04
what your debts are.
00:41:42:04 - 00:41:45:27
So everyone is on the same page
not thinking that you're a millionaire
00:41:45:27 - 00:41:47:19
when you're in debt, $1 million.
00:41:47:19 - 00:41:50:19
You want to make sure that you
you have exchanged
00:41:50:25 - 00:41:54:14
all relevant documentation
and that everyone is starting
00:41:54:14 - 00:41:58:11
from the same knowledge base, because it's
only then when all the information
00:41:58:11 - 00:42:01:24
is out there, that you can actually come
to a resolution.
00:42:02:21 - 00:42:05:23
And so, you know, just,
just put yourself in the other person's
00:42:05:23 - 00:42:07:23
shoes
and try and be as reasonable as possible,
00:42:07:23 - 00:42:10:07
because at the end of the day,
you both want the same thing,
00:42:10:07 - 00:42:12:15
you both want
you got married for a reason.
00:42:12:15 - 00:42:13:21
You have to remember that.
00:42:13:21 - 00:42:17:00
And you both want to get out,
you know, as quickly as you can.
00:42:17:02 - 00:42:20:10
Sure.
So a few more lighthearted questions.
00:42:22:02 - 00:42:23:28
Stacy on her free time.
00:42:23:28 - 00:42:25:21
It's Saturday afternoon.
00:42:25:21 - 00:42:28:21
Hopefully you don't have any work to do.
00:42:29:23 - 00:42:30:27
What are you doing in your free time?
00:42:30:27 - 00:42:32:03
What do you like to do?
00:42:32:03 - 00:42:34:02
I have three children. Yeah.
00:42:34:02 - 00:42:35:21
So most of the time I'm
00:42:35:21 - 00:42:39:02
running between their sports events
or activities on the weekend.
00:42:39:28 - 00:42:42:20
I what my ideal day would be, especially.
00:42:42:20 - 00:42:45:18
It's just starting to be
summer would be to go down to the beach.
00:42:45:18 - 00:42:46:24
Whereabouts to.
00:42:46:24 - 00:42:49:15
I love my grew up going down to Belmopan.
00:42:49:15 - 00:42:50:28
I currently have a small place
00:42:50:28 - 00:42:53:28
on Long Branch,
so I like both of those beaches very much.
00:42:54:29 - 00:42:57:29
That would be an ideal summer day.
00:42:58:00 - 00:43:01:15
During the week, though,
most of the time, baseball or soccer?
00:43:01:15 - 00:43:06:27
Basketball or, show or,
you know, activities or play dates,
00:43:07:24 - 00:43:10:26
and, you know, just hanging out
and enjoying each other.
00:43:10:26 - 00:43:12:15
That's that's my ideal.
00:43:12:15 - 00:43:15:02
I like, one thing you can't live without.
00:43:16:16 - 00:43:18:13
Ooh. I mean, the
00:43:18:13 - 00:43:22:14
nice thing to say would be my family,
because, of course, that that.
00:43:22:15 - 00:43:25:15
Family aside. I. You know, I do love,
00:43:26:06 - 00:43:29:24
just to hang out
and watch TV and sit by the pool.
00:43:30:14 - 00:43:31:12
I like to run.
00:43:31:12 - 00:43:33:22
That's my chosen form of exercise.
00:43:33:22 - 00:43:36:02
Clear my head.
00:43:36:02 - 00:43:38:18
And or read a good book.
00:43:38:18 - 00:43:41:03
I do, like, enjoy reading as well. Sure.
00:43:41:03 - 00:43:44:03
Favorite fictional lawyer?
00:43:45:23 - 00:43:48:23
So it's hard
because it's she's actually not a lawyer,
00:43:48:27 - 00:43:52:06
but my favorite fictional character
on a TV show
00:43:52:06 - 00:43:56:10
would be Donna Harvey's
Donna, suits in suits.
00:43:56:10 - 00:44:00:24
Okay, because she ran the show
and she got what she wanted in the end.
00:44:00:24 - 00:44:03:26
And, she was my favorite character
on that, that TV show.
00:44:03:26 - 00:44:06:14
Okay, we'll take that. Close enough. Yeah.
00:44:06:14 - 00:44:11:10
If you could represent one
high profile client from the past
00:44:11:10 - 00:44:14:10
that went through a very public divorce,
who would that have?
00:44:14:10 - 00:44:15:17
This one.
00:44:15:17 - 00:44:16:28
That's a tough one.
00:44:16:28 - 00:44:18:18
Is there ever one
you watch and you're like, oh,
00:44:18:18 - 00:44:21:05
I wish I could have got my hands on that.
That would have been fun.
00:44:21:05 - 00:44:22:21
Yeah. I mean,
00:44:24:17 - 00:44:26:13
I don't know.
00:44:26:13 - 00:44:28:22
I mean, I don't know, it's a tough one
00:44:28:22 - 00:44:31:22
because usually it may be,
00:44:32:03 - 00:44:34:29
the Johnny Depp trial
that was that was a tough one.
00:44:34:29 - 00:44:36:03
Profile for. Sure.
00:44:36:03 - 00:44:37:28
That would have been really interesting.
00:44:37:28 - 00:44:39:28
Right.
00:44:39:28 - 00:44:42:09
That was something recent, but,
00:44:42:09 - 00:44:45:20
you know, most of if I would handle
and I've have handled
00:44:45:20 - 00:44:48:25
some high profile clients,
you wouldn't keep it out of the public.
00:44:48:26 - 00:44:50:15
Sure. You want to resolve it quick.
00:44:50:15 - 00:44:52:19
You don't want to be quietly.
Yeah. You don't.
00:44:52:19 - 00:44:56:10
So if I was on TV,
I would, because that that was plan B.
00:44:56:11 - 00:44:57:18
Yeah. Plan I didn't go.
00:44:57:18 - 00:45:01:04
And so I don't want to ever be
in that circumstance if I could avoid it.
00:45:01:04 - 00:45:02:26
That's a good answer.
00:45:02:26 - 00:45:06:04
So we're now officemates
you down the hall from me? Yes.
00:45:07:06 - 00:45:08:14
Office pet peeves.
00:45:08:14 - 00:45:11:28
What is the one thing that drives
you crazy when you walk in the office
00:45:11:28 - 00:45:14:28
and something is there and you go,
00:45:15:18 - 00:45:17:08
people just don't.
00:45:17:08 - 00:45:19:15
How come you don't clean your dishes? Or.
00:45:19:15 - 00:45:21:26
Oh, now,
00:45:21:26 - 00:45:22:29
you know, I.
00:45:22:29 - 00:45:25:21
I'm just asking
so I know how not to make you upset.
00:45:25:21 - 00:45:27:19
I like...
00:45:27:19 - 00:45:30:08
one of the things I enjoy about our office
00:45:30:08 - 00:45:33:11
is everyone's
super friendly and welcoming.
00:45:33:23 - 00:45:36:27
And so when I walk down the hall
and listen, my doors closed
00:45:36:27 - 00:45:41:23
when I'm on zoom or, when I'm,
you know, meeting with a client at times.
00:45:41:23 - 00:45:45:07
But to see everyone's
doors open and smiling and good morning.
00:45:45:15 - 00:45:50:08
That's my preferred because you work,
you know, we all have families at home
00:45:50:19 - 00:45:53:26
and crazy people we're dealing with,
whether for you
00:45:53:26 - 00:45:57:04
it's in the office or for me,
it's my clients.
00:45:57:26 - 00:45:59:11
And so the stress everywhere.
00:45:59:11 - 00:46:02:23
And we do spend
an inordinate amount of time at work,
00:46:03:14 - 00:46:05:03
because that's our lifestyle.
00:46:05:03 - 00:46:08:24
And so, you know, it's
nice to have those friendly relationships
00:46:09:01 - 00:46:10:24
and to make work
as pleasurable as possible.
00:46:10:24 - 00:46:13:24
So my pet peeve would be grumpy people.
00:46:14:00 - 00:46:15:05
Okay.
00:46:15:05 - 00:46:16:03
We don't have any of those.
00:46:16:03 - 00:46:18:04
No we do, of course, you know.
00:46:18:04 - 00:46:20:05
All right. Well, Stacy,
thank you so much for joining us.
00:46:20:05 - 00:46:21:28
This was fun. This is awesome.
00:46:21:28 - 00:46:24:29
If anybody has any questions for Stacy,
you can reach her
00:46:24:29 - 00:46:30:01
at scozewith@saiber.com.
00:46:30:13 - 00:46:32:00
Thank you to everyone for listening
and watching.
00:46:32:00 - 00:46:33:18
Make sure to subscribe to our YouTube
00:46:33:18 - 00:46:35:21
and podcast channel
and we'll talk to you later.
00:46:35:21 - 00:46:36:29
Thanks again Stacy. Thanks. Sounds good!