Why You Couldn't Cry at the Funeral But Sobbed Over an IKEA Table — The Truth About ADHD and Grief

If you have ADHD, you might already know this particular kind of shame. You held it together at a super sad event (let's say a funeral). Dry-eyed, composed, functioning. And then weeks later you completely lost it over something small like a scratch in a piece of furniture, a voicemail you couldn't get a read on, or a realizing you missed claiming a hold on the book at the library you'd been waiting months for. Then you thought there was something wrong with you for not feeling grief or frustration when you were supposed to. Or for feeling it so hard in all the wrong places. Here's the thing: there's nothing wrong with you! And this episode is going to tell you why.

This conversation with David and Isabelle started with the last ten percent of a move that never gets finished, with Christmas lights still up in January, with holiday cards that feel impossible to take down because taking them down means saying goodbye. You probably have your version of all of this. Isabelle shares her story of an IKEA table, a scrap truck, and how when her husband Bobby gave the table a voice in the alley while she watched from the window, she burst into tears. 

If any of this strikes a cord, David shares a reframe for all of these grief-based adventures. It's specific, it's kind, and it's going to rearrange some things you've been carrying around for a while.

In this episode:

• Why ADHD brains declare mission accomplished at 95 percent done, and why the last bit never happens
• Why dopamine lives in anticipation, not completion, and what that means for the finish line of anything
• What Toy Story, Beauty and the Beast, and The Iron Giant actually did to neurodivergent brains (and why you always buy the wonky stuffed animal)
• Why ADHD brains tend to hold onto everything or onto nothing, and what both are reaching for
• Why you couldn't cry at the funeral but sobbed over an IKEA table, and what David says grief actually is

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Wait, What's That? Here are some of the terms and people mentioned in this episode explained:

The ROI Equation What David calls the moment at 95 percent done when your anxiety drops, your brain decides the job is basically finished, and completing the last bit suddenly feels pointless. Not laziness. Not a character flaw. Just math.

Dopamine The brain chemical most associated with ADHD. It gets released in anticipation of a reward, not when the reward actually arrives. This is why ordering the pizza feels better than eating it, why the first ninety percent of a project is exciting and the last ten is impossible, and why the Christmas lights are still up in February.

Norepinephrine (Nora) Comes in after dopamine and helps your brain make meaning of what just happened. Also wired into the stress and anxiety response, which is why finishing something can feel worse than you expected. David and Isabelle call it "nora" throughout the episode.

Existential Intervention David's term for the conscious act of changing the meaning you attach to finishing something, since your brain won't generate that motivation on its own. Instead of waiting to feel ready, you decide what finishing actually means to you. That decision becomes the thing that gets you across the line.

Near-peer mentoring Learning from someone just a few steps ahead of you rather than an expert at a distance. Comes up in the context of the pandemic, when both David and Isabelle realized everyone's life looked a lot more like theirs than they'd assumed.

Animism The tendency to believe objects have feelings or inner lives. It shows up as why Isabelle is nearly in tears watching an IKEA table get picked up by a scrap truck, why David buys the dying flowers at the store, and why you feel genuinely bad about donating a stuffed animal with slightly off stitching. Most neurodivergent people have it. The episode makes a case for why that makes complete sense.

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💬 When has grief shown up for you in the wrong place? Dry-eyed at the funeral, then falling apart over a chipped mug or a table left out on the curb. Let us know in the comments on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. We read them!

🎧 Follow Something Shiny: ADHD for more conversations that help you understand your ADHD and remind you, you were never too much.

What is Something Shiny: ADHD!?

How many times have you tried to understand ADHD...and were left feeling more misunderstood? We get it and we're here to help you build a shiny new relationship with ADHD. We are two therapists (David Kessler & Isabelle Richards) who not only work with people with ADHD, but we also have ADHD ourselves and have been where you are. Every other week on Something Shiny, you'll hear (real) vulnerable conversations, truth bombs from the world of psychology, and have WHOA moments that leave you feeling seen, understood, and...dare we say...knowing you are something shiny, just as you are.

Something Shiny: ADHD!
Why You Couldn't Cry at the Funeral But Sobbed Over an IKEA Table — The Truth About ADHD and Grief
Drop Date: Wednesday, June 3, 2026

*this episode transcription was auto-generated and might contain errors
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ISABELLE RICHARDS: [00:00:00] Hello, I'm Isabelle, she, her, hers.

DAVID KESSLER: And I'm David, he, him, his.

ISABELLE RICHARDS: And we're two therapists with ADHD who sit down to have some chats about ADHD. We can't promise we'll stay on topic- Or be professional Or even remotely mature. But we can promise that you'll end up looking at you or your loved one's beautiful neurodivergent brain in a shiny new way.

ISABELLE RICHARDS: This is not a therapy session. This is Something Shiny.

DAVID KESSLER: I love it. Can this just be the intro of you saying that and me freaking out about how amazing it is?

ISABELLE RICHARDS: So without further ado, welcome to Something Shiny.

ISABELLE RICHARDS: Hey, quick thing before we get into this one. Uh, David and I recorded this episode at the end of January, so when we talk about Christmas lights still being up and holiday re- decorations hanging around, that's why. I wanna say it was eight [00:01:00] weeks after the holidays. Wait, that doesn't track if we recorded in January.

ISABELLE RICHARDS: You know what I mean. Uh, but yeah, today's conversation starts small. We're talking moving boxes, fairy lights, holiday cards that feel impossible to take down, and it ends up somewhere completely random we didn't plan on going. And ultimately, if you've ever wondered why you couldn't cry or felt like there were...

ISABELLE RICHARDS: there wasn't a big feeling about something you felt you should have a big feeling about, and then alternately why you feel like you maybe completely fall apart or melt down over something that feels so strange that it's hitting that hard, this one is for you. David has a reframe I didn't see coming, and I literally haven't stopped thinking about it since we recorded.

ISABELLE RICHARDS: So let's dive in

ISABELLE RICHARDS: So we, we moved houses, right? Which was a, it, it was, it was a whole [00:02:00] situation where your whole world gets put away and you have to... Like, it's an immediate loss of all the objects, and all the routines, and all the structures, even if you think you've got it, right? Like, I labeled things, you know, like I go through all the steps, but I could not get over how disorienting it was.

ISABELLE RICHARDS: And thank goodness, like, we're kind of on the other edge of this, but it's like, for me, it's like that last 10, sometimes even 20% of a task. Um, so like in my case, I'm, like, kinda looking around the room and there's still like, like maybe one box that needs to be opened, g- you know, so sorted, donations made.

ISABELLE RICHARDS: It's like that last ugh of the task, right? Or, uh, taking down holiday decorations. I took them all down, and then there's like actually three left that I like, oops, forgot, you know, and they're just sitting there now looking at me accusingly, David, [00:03:00] accusingly. I... And, okay, the other thing I started is I, again, this could have been impulse, this could have been a stroke of genius, maybe both, but I really love certain patterns in, like, wallpapers, but they're so expensive, and also, like, they're not exactly what I want.

ISABELLE RICHARDS: I don't know if that makes sense to you, um, anyone listening, where it's like you know what you see in your head, but it's not in existence quite yet. And so I decided I'm gonna paint a mural To be fair, okay, back in the day, in high school style, I did paint a lot, like, with acrylics. So, like, the medium of painting on a wall with, like, also an acrylic-based paint, which dries pretty fast and stuff, is not, like, completely out of my comfort zone, especially this very specific kind of pattern I'm trying to make, right?

ISABELLE RICHARDS: Like, I'm not, I don't feel like I can't do it, but it's like, cool, I have the, like, oomph to get started, and then it's like the joy of the risk of, oh, I'm painting on a wall, oh my gosh, this is so cool. And [00:04:00] then it's like finishing it. So, and I do feel different about that in terms of I will get it done. Um, but yeah.

ISABELLE RICHARDS: What am I saying, David? What am I saying without saying? I don't know.

DAVID KESSLER: No, you're talking about so many things that are just gonna align with our souls and, like, make us feel- Okay ... seen. Because, now I think there's this really interesting equation around ROI that changes when you're, like, 95% done with a task, right?

ISABELLE RICHARDS: Mm-hmm.

DAVID KESSLER: Because all of a sudden you only have 5% to do, and that's not that bad, and you can do that in your sleep. And all of a sudden your anxiety goes down. Ooh. And all of a sudden the intensity goes down. Ooh. And your brain's like, "Mission accom-" And it doesn't go to the list, right? It's just like, "Mission accom-" And you're like, "Yeah, I agree.

DAVID KESSLER: It's good enough." And there's a part of you that like, is it's easier to have that spinning plate always there, right? Yeah. Because at a certain point, that's familiar. You could do that in a second. You know, I need a little, I need a get right day. Let me just do these little hanging things that, like, aren't [00:05:00] gonna take much energy, right?

DAVID KESSLER: But over time, they, uh, what I notice is they tend to become part of, like, the scenery. All of a sudden you have, like, two or three things everywhere, and it's kind of like leaves on trees. And I think it's more complicated than just that too, because I took the holiday stuff down right away. You know, like, taking the tree down, like, putting all the ornaments down, like, taking all...

DAVID KESSLER: But- But our holiday cards are still up, and I definitely left our string lights over our front window still up. And, and for me, it's really hard to, like, say goodbye to people. So I'm like, "I don't wanna take down these, these, like, holiday cards that people sent me." And there's a part of that that I think is intertwined with grief.

DAVID KESSLER: I, I'm like, oh- Yeah ... I'm being hyperbolic, right? But, like, I don't wanna say goodbye. I don't wanna let go of, like, this wonderful time where I'm thinking of all these wonderful people. And then conversely, I kinda like the lights.

ISABELLE RICHARDS: Yeah.

DAVID KESSLER: Right? Like, I have these lights wound up around my, like, um, my blinds, and so they kinda hang down, and it's just kinda like it puts this little fairy glow into my living room.

DAVID KESSLER: And you know [00:06:00] what? I like it. And, and if I could- Mm ... I'd have a fairy glow year-round. Yeah. I would build that stuff into my ceilings, right? So, like, one part is I like it and I don't want to, and another part is I don't really know what to do once that's finished. I don't wanna start a new task. I don't wanna engage in grief and rebirth.

DAVID KESSLER: Does that, does that make sense? Is that resonating with what you're saying?

ISABELLE RICHARDS: Oh my gosh, yeah. I actually have some chills because I similarly adore fairy lights and twinkle lights of all varieties. Um, I'm obsessed with, like, now, there's, like, one very particular thing I found at Costco once that's, like, a style of, like, little small globe LED lights, though, that, like, fade in and out of colors and, like, do the patterns.

ISABELLE RICHARDS: Oh, yeah. And it's like I could have 'em on all the time. Side note, like, that could also be maybe a part of ADHD culture is, like, what if we all just left our twinkle lights up all year? 'Cause if we love 'em, why not? Like, I mean, a part of me, like, okay, so when you're talking, what I'm thinking about is, like, yes, and it's so [00:07:00] interesting 'cause some of those goodbyes, right, like some of those put things away, are coming from a place of actually, for me, I would like that to be put away now.

ISABELLE RICHARDS: Like, I do have a moment with most of my holiday decor where I'm like, "This is the best. I love it." And then I don't know what happens. It's almost I'm like, I'm a full up. Like, it's like I hit my max and I'm like, "Too much. It's overstimulating now." It's like, it's, like, stressful. All I d- all it becomes is a task in my brain or something.

ISABELLE RICHARDS: And that's the stage, it's interesting when you said the anxiety, where I feel like I get shit done. Mm-hmm. And it gets done fast and it gets done relatively efficiently because it's like I'm almost, like, angry about it. Like, I think it probably is a self-stimulation thing. It is. But I'm almost like, "I'm mad that I have to put this away," and then also mad that I'm mad about it, and then, "Oh, it's done.

ISABELLE RICHARDS: Yay." You know? Um, as well as sometimes, like, "Oh, I don't have time. Ah," you know? But yeah, there's urgency. There's some kind of s- it's like it is more, like, activating, right? And you're right where if [00:08:00] there's only, like, two or three things left, it feels like there's no pressure 'cause it feels like no one's gonna come into my house and go, "Oh, you left your, you know, you left the soap dish with the, with the Santa and the car out," you know?

ISABELLE RICHARDS: And I'm like, "No one's gonna c-" you know, like I don't care. But it is... Okay. It's interesting 'cause it, it's probably my own comfort level with grief why I'm not even saying the word, right? Like, 'cause you're right, I think saying goodbye to people is, like, so overwhelming. I too, I cannot throw away a Christmas card.

ISABELLE RICHARDS: So side note, just know this about me. So I have them saved for, like, the last 20 years- Yeah ... in Ziploc bags. And I'm not necessarily saving everything in my life, but, like, a photo of a human I cannot part with for that reason. Um, so yeah, I think it's, like, all the things. And I also think about... Okay, what I was thinking about when you were talking too is, like, okay, if a part of it's I don't wanna, which is true, a part of it is like, ah, it's just not as [00:09:00] exciting to finish.

ISABELLE RICHARDS: And the other thing I'm thinking about is, like, and stop me if I'm wrong 'cause I probably, I could be butchering this, but it's like isn't it that, that idea with dopamine where it's like dopamine, which is our thing we're starving for with ADHD, um, is released in s- uh, released in anticipation-

DAVID KESSLER: Yes ...

ISABELLE RICHARDS: of something, right?

ISABELLE RICHARDS: Like, so you're getting the dopamine while you're, like, on the hunt for your food, and once you have unlocked food, it's gone, right? Like, it leaves because now-

DAVID KESSLER: It's a- it's like when you order the pizza, dopamine ends when the pizza arrives.

ISABELLE RICHARDS: Yes. Is that also, like, why, like, shopper's remorse or buyer's remorse- Yes

ISABELLE RICHARDS: or, like... Yeah?

DAVID KESSLER: 100. So, like, this is where there's that handoff, and we've talked about it before between, like, dopamine and norepinephrine, right? Yes. And so this is where dopamine is all like, "I feel great. I can't wait for this pizza to get here. This is the best thing ever. I'm so hungry. I can't wait to eat.

DAVID KESSLER: This is so good." And then, like, the pizza gets there, and you're like, "All right." And then you have a couple slices and you're like, "Why did you eat [00:10:00] that pizza? You could have had something healthier," right? That's nora coming in afterwards. It's no longer dopamine. You're no longer getting rewarded. Now it's about, like, the meaning making that you make, right?

DAVID KESSLER: Like, it's not like pizza's automatically bad because it could be like, "I deserve this pizza," you know? It could, it could be a wonderful nora experience. But there's a handoff there. And to your point, if there isn't much left, maybe nora's not that rewarding for finishing. "Oh, great, you picked up the four socks.

DAVID KESSLER: Congratulations." You're not getting a big reward for that, right? Yeah. Depending on how you're thinking about it. And I think this is where it's gonna sound s- like, ridiculous as well, but this is where I think existential interventions really work. Mm. We have to change the meaning of what it's like to change, like, to get this thing done.

DAVID KESSLER: Like- It, for me, it really doesn't matter, you know, if I pick up this one room or not. I really don't notice things in these different areas on the table. Like, it's just lit- like, clutter becomes part of the scenery for me, right?

ISABELLE RICHARDS: Mm-hmm.

DAVID KESSLER: But I know that if I can clean up specific kinds of [00:11:00] clutter, my partner finds value in that.

DAVID KESSLER: And so all of a sudden I'm taking care of my partner by picking up these things, or I'm taking care of future me by picking up these things, or I can't wait to think about this anymore by picking up these things. There's some kind of intrinsic reward that I create that doesn't exist that helps me do the stupid thing.

ISABELLE RICHARDS: Oh my gosh, David. Okay, sorry. I just had like... Oh, and then you took this b- so, and for people listening, David just like, it literally was your mic drop moment. You took a bite of what looks like a very delicious sandwich, kind of like a little on the side, and the style with which you did that, I was like, "Correct."

ISABELLE RICHARDS: You're like, "And that's it." And then I was like, "Wah." Okay, wait a minute. I have to say this back because I, I feel like my, my whole understanding of my brain literally just did an upgrade. Okay, so there are the built-in rewards I'm getting, right? When I'm stressing myself out and when I'm really into the thi- or I'm really curious about the thing, or I [00:12:00] really wanna do this, like with the mural, like, oh, I'm so excited to like explore.

ISABELLE RICHARDS: I haven't done it in a long time. How can I do it? The risk, the risk. Oh, is it gonna suck? Is it not? And I decide it sucks every day. I decide I love it every day. You know, it goes back and forth. But there's something about that process that is very, very jazzy. And then what I do with my nora, right? So the nora epinephrine is the part that also there's like some links too around ADHD connected to differences in how we uptake or process our norepinephrine too, right?

ISABELLE RICHARDS: Like it's not- Yep ... just the dopamine. Dopamine gets the headline.

DAVID KESSLER: It, it, and it's not just good feelings. Nora is also deeply, you know, part of our stress response, our anxiety. So it's not, it's not like this wonderful thing. It's, it's part of lots of ADHD systems. Sorry.

ISABELLE RICHARDS: Oh, gotcha, gotcha. Um, so my understanding is, okay, so let me see what I'm thinking.

ISABELLE RICHARDS: So it's like if norepinephrine, right, like comes in and it's like almost this thing that makes you like pause and evaluate or reflect or [00:13:00] make meaning of whatever just happened, right? Like it's the part that makes you go, "Now let's think about this," sort of.

DAVID KESSLER: Yeah, like let's evaluate whether or not what you just did was worth it.

ISABELLE RICHARDS: Okay, so what you're saying is I have a choice, and I know you've said this before, but like something different just clicked in me where it's like the meaning, the thing you said where it's like, but the m- I cannot rely on my environment to create that meaning.

DAVID KESSLER: Right.

ISABELLE RICHARDS: I actually have to actively decide a different meaning for the last part of a project to be rewarding.

ISABELLE RICHARDS: So whole, okay- Yes ... 'cause you don't understand, like what my current methods legit are just I beat myself senseless inside again until I get it done, and then the reward is the relief of, oh, I'm not- You know, shitting on myself for not finishing this sooner or, oh, you know, I'm so, oh, you know, all the things I say to myself.

ISABELLE RICHARDS: I'm so mean to myself still, which is really frustrating 'cause I've done so much work to not be. Um, but okay, so the thing you're saying is, like, maybe I can make it as, [00:14:00] oh, this last 10% is gonna bring such joy to my family 'cause, like, they get to, like, be in a room without paint smells and things on the carpet.

ISABELLE RICHARDS: Help. I don't know how to make it.

DAVID KESSLER: Yeah. Yes.

ISABELLE RICHARDS: I'm so... My brain cannot do this easily.

DAVID KESSLER: So it's like, it'll feel really good for... So, so can I just run through the bunch of options that, like, I could, I would im- but, like, this is about you, but, like, my family will feel so good having this room back. It'll feel really good not having these things out.

DAVID KESSLER: I can't wait to not have this over my head. Oh. This is gonna look so good when it's done. Like, this is where, like, I, it's how can we find different things? When I was younger-

ISABELLE RICHARDS: Mm-hmm ...

DAVID KESSLER: the only way I knew how to do this was threats. Yeah. You're, they're gonna laugh at you. You're gonna look stupid. They're not gonna, like, no one's gonna like you.

DAVID KESSLER: No one's gonna come over if you don't paint this wall. Like, you're gonna look... Like, I would build all these threats into it, and it stimulated me, and it w- like, the terror made me do things, right? But over time, I, [00:15:00] I feel like it ended up Making opportunities feel like burdens

ISABELLE RICHARDS: Yes

DAVID KESSLER: And so the shift has been sh- like slow for me over time, and I still, like, have the like, "I don't wanna do it."

DAVID KESSLER: Like, I ha- you know, I still have all of that, those feelings. I don't want you to think like I'm sitting on this, like, criss-cross applesauce on top of a mountain like, you know, humming all day. But I think knowing that my choice is, like, creating the answer, that no one creates it for me anymore.

ISABELLE RICHARDS: Oh. Oh, my gosh.

ISABELLE RICHARDS: Okay, yeah. That makes total sense. Like, this is maybe a strange example, but I think about how, like, a lot of times the moment I pick up all the loose ends is when I know I'm gonna have company or people- Yeah ... staying with us.

DAVID KESSLER: Yes.

ISABELLE RICHARDS: Like, flat out, because I'm like, okay, it's... I suddenly look around and go, oh, I'm more invested in my comf- you know, my guests feeling comfortable than I am in, I guess, the stasis of being okay with all the clutter and stuff that's everywhere.

ISABELLE RICHARDS: So it, it, it's like one of my favorite [00:16:00] tactics because I think I'm doing what you said, which is... But it's interesting 'cause you're right. For a really long time, I mean, I would sometimes be near tears up until the minute someone's at my door, not because I'm, you know, really failing at the task, right?

ISABELLE RICHARDS: Like, no one coming to my house is gonna, like, be mad that I didn't finish vacuuming the hall or something, right? Right. But in my head, I had raised the stakes and the threat level so high. And I do think a piece maybe for me, too, is masking. Like, I think there's this layer of feeling like if someone saw the mess, that's one big tell that I don't, you know, I'm not good at something or I'm not trustworthy or I'm, you know, like s- like, this is gonna be the way you discover how hard some of that is for me, right?

ISABELLE RICHARDS: Like, my, the mount laundry is still, like, my arch nemesis, you know? Um, and so the rush to do it, the rush to do it, and then, like, literally last minute taking all the stuff and just throwing it in a room no one's gonna go into and closing the door. Usually my bedroom, honestly, which is [00:17:00] weird, right? It's like, oh, I'll hoard the mess by me, you know?

DAVID KESSLER: Oh, my God, I do that, too, 'cause it's like, it's like, I can take it. I can ta- like, I don't, I don't mind me. Let's do it. L- put, put the mess in my room. Like, it, yes, 100%.

ISABELLE RICHARDS: Yes, but I guess that's true. It's like, I can take the hit. I don't care. Like, it doesn't affect me the same way. But it's interesting 'cause you're right.

ISABELLE RICHARDS: There is a moment where and I wanna say it was probably maybe connected to, like, pandemic, not to make light of it, but, like, pandemic collective trauma stuff where, like, when people started coming back over, I was so excited that, like, something flipped in me where it stopped being let's stress yourself out and make it awful, and more like, oh, like, they're gonna get so...

ISABELLE RICHARDS: Like, the what a nice little touch. I wanna, like, do a little special something for them. And I actually, like- I don't know that I always go there, but that does seem to be more of where I go lately. But it is that. It was like a conscious- It's- ... or maybe forced hand, right? But, like, something flipped in how I [00:18:00] was evaluating doing the task.

DAVID KESSLER: Deprivation. You, you were starved from people because of a pandemic- Yeah ... and then all of a sudden it flipped the value on seeing people, and you were so, like, yeah.

ISABELLE RICHARDS: Well, and maybe, I mean, I don't know if anyone relate... I imagine someone has, I hope someone relates to this, but, like, the thing I never wanna say out loud 'cause I feel awful 'cause people, you know, died and it was a tragedy and it's, like, this awful thing.

ISABELLE RICHARDS: And also what the pandemic did for me is it changed so much so fast and it, like, forced me to, like, recognize, oh, I don't have spoons for this, or I do. And oh wow, I really like having more alone time, or I really like that I'm not going out as m- you know, like, and I know it's, like, different for so many people.

ISABELLE RICHARDS: But it's interesting 'cause it is a little bit, like, I also think maybe because I started to be privy to more people's messes, right? 'Cause I think more of us were maybe more open about it. I, I'm just saying, like, there had to have been a component of, like, near peer [00:19:00] mentoring or something like that where I was seeing more of what I live like reflected in people, and then I'm like, oh, maybe it's okay that there's dust bunnies sometimes.

DAVID KESSLER: So there's this thing, and I love what you're saying. Like, there's this thing, like, because we're therapists, we're trained on this, that there's this idealization that can happen. Like, when people come into our room and they're clients and we're talking to them and we're making them feel better, their, their natural reflex is to believe that we are demigods.

DAVID KESSLER: Or not really, but, like, we're perfect. We're super happy. We've got all of our stuff together. Like, like, no mess, no dust bunnies, and these people, they, they're, they're giving me advice because everything's perfect for them, which of course is true. No. I mean, clearly. But, like, it is not true. Yeah. It is not true, right?

DAVID KESSLER: And I think that there's this thing that happened for therapists too. Like, this is where I wanna pull back the curtain for, like, everyone else in the world. Like, we didn't get to see your homes.

ISABELLE RICHARDS: Never.

DAVID KESSLER: We, we didn't get to see the backs of your rooms. We've just believed you and whatever you said. Like, "My house is a mess," or, "My house is clean," we'd be like, [00:20:00] "Okay."

DAVID KESSLER: But all of a sudden during the pandemic, I could see in your home. Yes. And like, or, or like you would walk around with, like, your phone out and I could, like, see all around you. And I'm not... I'm working real hard not to be distracted by it, but I do have ADHD, so I'm seeing all of that and listening to you.

ISABELLE RICHARDS: Mm-hmm.

DAVID KESSLER: And all of a sudden I'm like, "Oh, you're not perfectly clean."

ISABELLE RICHARDS: Yeah.

DAVID KESSLER: You got stuff on the counter.

ISABELLE RICHARDS: Yes.

DAVID KESSLER: Or you are clean and you, you have a cleaning person that comes in every two weeks. Wow.

ISABELLE RICHARDS: Yes, because someone would have to go in another room 'cause their cleaning person had arrived, right? Yes. Like, yes, you suddenly see, like, the wizard behind the curtain, you know?

DAVID KESSLER: And all of a sudden I was like, "Oh, my stuff isn't so bad. Would you look at this? Wow." And, and it wasn't like everyone that I, that I work with has, like, really messy homes. It's not that at all. It's normalizing. And, and you're saying, like, a near peer mentor, and, like, maybe some of those people were near peer mentors for me, but everyone normalized sweatpants.

DAVID KESSLER: Everyone normalized a professional getup from the waist up. [00:21:00] Everyone normalized, like, all these little things that when you got a glimpse of it, you're like, "I'm not the one cheating. We're all doing it." Yes. And all of a sudden-

ISABELLE RICHARDS: Exactly.

DAVID KESSLER: Yeah, all of a sudden it felt like instead of like... 'Cause, you know, being neurodivergent my whole life, I kind of feel like I'm just on the outside, but I look like I'm on the inside, right?

DAVID KESSLER: And then all of a sudden the pandemic happened. I'm like, but I'm, I'm on the inside. Like, all of a sudden everything made sense. And I hated the pandemic. Yeah. Fair. Fair. So like, for me, that was a, that was a rough experience, but the part that you're talking about that was so... You're so right. We got intimacy with other people's lives and normalized our messes.

DAVID KESSLER: Thank you, pandemic.

ISABELLE RICHARDS: Oh, David. Yeah. Well, and that also tracks, right, because a lot of that happened not because people were like, "I can't wait to show you this," right? It was all, like, out of necessity, sometimes out of survival, out of like, "I have nowhere else to meet, so we're gonna be in the back of my closet today."

ISABELLE RICHARDS: And then on the flip side, right, as therapists, I'd argue people, willing or not, [00:22:00] right, like, I know I had to manage, like, noise differently. I had to acknowledge like, oh yes, I, I do have pets or kids or whatever, right, differently based on the sounds you could hear at times, you know? Okay, this is something...

ISABELLE RICHARDS: I swear this connects a little bit to the whole concept of grief, right? Because something I've been thinking about with grief is also, like, I'm slowly realizing how much of what I think I'm supposed to do or not do comes from, like, observation and, like, scripts. Like, almost like I generate, like, okay, that's a scenario.

ISABELLE RICHARDS: Okay, that person does that. Okay, cool. Now, okay, that's what I do. You know, like, it's... And it's not like, not to say other humans don't do this, I just mean, like, I'm s- I feel like I'm so heavily dependent on what I have observed or experienced in order to, like, fill my, like, spectrum of what's possible, right?

ISABELLE RICHARDS: And I, and that's fair for all humans, right? But I mean this when I say, like- I kind of didn't know [00:23:00] that, you know, some of that would have been allowed. And again, maybe it's just 'cause I go t- I turn it into a rule, but like, I don't know that I allowed myself to wear sweatpants even though I was, like, super pregnant and should have been wearing sweatpants until I saw someone else wearing sweatpants, and I was like, "Oh.

ISABELLE RICHARDS: Oh, like, that is a possibility. I don't think less of this pers- Oh, okay, I can break that code, and ha ha ha." Like, I, I u- understand. So the thing I think about with grief is, like, how so much of what I thought was okay was based on, like, movies, sitcoms, what I see on TV, what I see on Insta- you know, like, what you see on social media.

ISABELLE RICHARDS: Like, it's all in that external presentation, and thank goodness it's shifting to permit more internal, like, revealing. But how even my idea about how I'm supposed to feel, like, what I'm supposed to grieve... Okay, this is gonna sound weird. I will burst into tears thinking [00:24:00] about donating any object if I can imagine that object like the Brave Little Toaster.

DAVID KESSLER: Mm-hmm.

ISABELLE RICHARDS: Does this make any sense to you?

DAVID KESSLER: Animism, 100%. Like, like why I buy the flowers that are dying in the store.

ISABELLE RICHARDS: Oh my gosh. Or yes, or I buy the wa- I call it the wonky stuffed animal syndrome. Mm-hmm. Like, if there's two stuffed animals and one has, like, slightly off stitching, I will always buy that one 'cause I'm like, "No one else will buy it-" Yeah, you're gonna save it

ISABELLE RICHARDS: "and I need to love it."

DAVID KESSLER: 100%. 100%. Oh, I have that. Yeah.

ISABELLE RICHARDS: Oh, yeah. Okay. Mm-hmm. So, like, for real, when Bobby and I were first dating, I had, like, a glass table. This is ir- almost irrelevant to the story except it was relatively useless when we moved in together. Like, we couldn't find a place for it. So it was either donate it or put it out back in Chicago in the back alley where the scrap- scrappers, like people who come and pick up scrap metal, 'cause it was made out of metal, could turn it, you know, like melt it down, sell it.

ISABELLE RICHARDS: Those dudes are amazing, so yeah. Right? I miss that. Nashville doesn't really have that. So point is, is Bobby picked up the table and was like, "Okay, I'll put it out back," right? But the [00:25:00] problem is, is I could, like, see out our window. I could see this little table sitting there, and Bobby saw it, and he thought he was being funny, bless him, and he was like, "Why am I here?

ISABELLE RICHARDS: Oh, I had so much fun being inside. Why am I here? Oh, that's weird. What's that sound? That's a loud sound." 'Cause the scrap, the scrap, like, truck had come through, and the guy had gotten out and was picking it up, and he's like, "Who are you? Who are you?" Like, he started making the voice. Oh my God. And I mean it.

ISABELLE RICHARDS: Like, I don't know if you can tell, I am about to burst into tears just thinking about it. Like, that is how full body wrong and sad I feel about, like, that. I blame Disney. And yet... Okay, and you can judge me as much as you want. When I have lost human beings or even a pet in my life, I have not had that instant reaction.

ISABELLE RICHARDS: It does not show. Like, I feel like I don't grieve right, or I'm like something is mechanistically altered in my ability, because that makes no sense to me. Like, I'm horrified over losing a s- a table from my cube. Isabelle. Like, what?

DAVID KESSLER: Isabelle. [00:26:00] Oh, you're judging the crap out of yourself, and I don't see it like this at all, and I just need to, like...

DAVID KESSLER: Like, I'm hugging you now. Like, this is a, this is a verbal hug. Okay.

ISABELLE RICHARDS: Aw.

DAVID KESSLER: So-

ISABELLE RICHARDS: Thank you ...

DAVID KESSLER: we have been, we have been absolutely conditioned by Disney. I mean, I think we all saw that Brave Little Toaster or whatever that thing was, where, like,

ISABELLE RICHARDS: you know, the- Or The

DAVID KESSLER: Iron

ISABELLE RICHARDS: Giant ...

DAVID KESSLER: The Iron Giant, right. Like, the, the, you know, when, when the grown-ups leave the room, the room comes alive and all the little things talk.

DAVID KESSLER: I mean, like-

ISABELLE RICHARDS: Toy Story.

DAVID KESSLER: To- Toy Story. Beauty and the Beast. I mean, the candle's having a conversation with the cabinet. I mean, my, my whole point is we've been taught that these things have feelings, and I think there's this piece around how much of the world feels, uh, out of our control for, for people who are neurodivergent often, right?

DAVID KESSLER: And it's ea- Like, the ways we can, like, reclaim control is like I'm gonna hold onto everything, or I'm gonna hold onto nothing I see it going in, like, both directions

ISABELLE RICHARDS: You're so right. Yeah.

DAVID KESSLER: And when there's, like, the things that we're deciding to hold onto, they're parts of us. And so all of a sudden there's [00:27:00] this part of us outside, cold, that we're saving by bringing inside, and it's really sad to, like, have to turn our back on ourselves.

DAVID KESSLER: It's, like, a really complicated process, and there's so much about ourselves involved with this, right, that conjure up real emotions of grief and loss, I'm just gonna say it as well, that we don't really need to process on a daily basis, but oh my God, they live in these things. And when this thing gets thrown out, I can finally process this grief or this loss from something else, right?

ISABELLE RICHARDS: Yeah. Oh, that's such a good point.

DAVID KESSLER: And there's so much branding and marketing about how your presentation of sadness is equal to the amount of sadness you feel, and that is not accurate. Mm. The amount that you cry or hiccup or snivel is not at all connected with how much you felt a loss. Because losses themselves are really complex.

DAVID KESSLER: So I'll just say this thing. This is something that I believe about grief. I believe grief is most often felt in future [00:28:00] moments you can't share. So you don't know when you're gonna really miss that person, or you don't know when you're really gonna be sad, or you don't know when... Like, all of a sudden you're graduating and you're like, "I thought this person would be here," and you're sad, right?

DAVID KESSLER: Because it's a future moment you can't share. Well, in the moment they're dead, I really don't wanna share a funeral with a loved one. Like, I mean, "Isn't this cool? We're at your funeral." Like, I'm not connected with all the feelings all the time in the funeral moment. It's too branded. Now, if I had to, like...

DAVID KESSLER: If I was all private in the woods and I was, like, digging a hole and th- like, doing the thing myself, maybe I'd have way more feelings, but it's the future where I feel all those things. So if you didn't have a feeling at a funeral of a person you really loved-

ISABELLE RICHARDS: Mm-hmm ...

DAVID KESSLER: you didn't do anything wrong. You really love them.

ISABELLE RICHARDS: Yeah. And

DAVID KESSLER: I'm sorry that people judged you.

ISABELLE RICHARDS: Oh, David. Oh, if I could just say that again, like, that is... I, I don't know. Thank you, first of all. I feel, like, your verbal hug, and that is, like... I don't know that I realized how much I needed to hear that.

DAVID KESSLER: Thank you so much for listening. [00:29:00] If you ever have that thought where you think, "Hey, I'm nothing," stop.

DAVID KESSLER: Remember, you're something. Something shiny.

ISABELLE RICHARDS: That's right, just as you are. If you like what you heard and you want to hear more free episodes of this podcast, please subscribe, rate, and review anywhere you listen to podcasts. We're on Instagram as somethingshinypodcast, and if you're looking for more information, useful links, definitions, visuals, everything we can think of and more is on our website at somethingshinypodcast.com, and it's all free.

ISABELLE RICHARDS: Thank you so much for listening, and we'll see you in two weeks.