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Hello Hydrogen visits some of the world's most prestigious events and talks to world leaders in the field of hydrogen and energy. What needs to be done in order to switch to a hydrogen-based power grid? Is hydrogen in fact the fuel of the future? Listen, subscribe and find out!
Welcome to this special bonus episode of Hello Hydrogen! As we approach the World Hydrogen Summit and Exhibition of twenty twenty six we take a closer look at the hydrogen system that is being built in the Port Of Rotterdam. From production and import to use and the distribution further along. In this special episode we have Duna Uribe from the Port of Rotterdam Authority and Sjordjeneskens from Agroverd as our guests. At the time of recording this episode it had already been announced that OCI's ammonia business would be acquired by Agroverd.
Celwin Frenzen (host):That acquisition has since been completed. My name is Selwyn Flindze and in this episode I talk to our guests about the role of hydrogen and ammonia imports in the energy transition and former OCI's activities in Rotterdam. The hydrogen system in Rotterdam is taking shape. Large green hydrogen plants are being constructed on the conversion park at the Maas Lachte and the first part of the hydrogen backbone is connected to both the electrolyzer as the refinery in the Botleg. But the port is also heavily focusing on importing hydrogen.
Celwin Frenzen (host):Why is it important to focus on both production and import?
Duna Uribe (Port of Rotterdam Authority):Indeed, like you said, we're building a whole ecosystem where imports and local production will take place. And while we do estimate that imports will be the large majority of the flows of hydrogen that will come to the Port Of Rotterdam, it is very necessary to also have production. And the reason of that is, well, very common words these days, resilience. So we need a supply chain resilience. We need diversity of supplies so that we have security of supply.
Duna Uribe (Port of Rotterdam Authority):And that means that we, in addition to imports from several diverse countries, we will also have local production. Actually those are the ones already under construction at this point at the port. So that's exciting.
Celwin Frenzen (host):Okay. Well, an import is going to happen in hydrogen carriers, of course. What are hydrogen carriers and why are they needed?
Duna Uribe (Port of Rotterdam Authority):Yeah, a good question. Why are they needed? So hydrogen in its form is well challenging to transport and definitely in long distances therefore you would add another molecule to the hydrogen molecule and then you create a carrier. So that means you're able to transport and you're able to use hydrogen as hydrogen if you're able to convert it back or as that molecule. Ammonia is one of those molecules but we're also preparing for other molecules as well, other hydrogen carriers.
Duna Uribe (Port of Rotterdam Authority):So you can think of methanol in addition to ammonia, but also LOHC which is liquid organic hydrogen carrier and in the future liquid hydrogen as well.
Celwin Frenzen (host):Yeah. Why are we keeping those multiple options open instead of focusing on one like ammonia?
Duna Uribe (Port of Rotterdam Authority):Yeah. Well, Rotterdam is a large port, right? So we handle all types of cargo. If you think of one specific cargo type, we handle it here, be it containerized, it bulk, be it break bulk, all kinds of liquids of gases. So it's not up to us to choose the carrier and what the cargo is.
Duna Uribe (Port of Rotterdam Authority):It's up to the market. So as a large port, leading port in Europe, as the largest port in Europe, we're not able to make that choice. So we are open for all carriers and let the market decide and we need to make sure that infrastructure is ready and therefore that's our role in the supply chain to make sure that we are prepared to receive all of those carriers.
Celwin Frenzen (host):Yeah, so to receive all of them we need to focus on all carriers.
Duna Uribe (Port of Rotterdam Authority):Exactly, yeah.
Celwin Frenzen (host):And why is then ammonia such a logical option for the short term?
Duna Uribe (Port of Rotterdam Authority):Yeah, I'm sure it will help me here, but ammonia is a very mature industry. So if you talk about ammonia production, it has been present throughout decades, if not a century already. And that means that the technology is known, infrastructure is there and you are able to transport that hydrogen in long distances as ammonia. So that means that then you could receive ammonia or let me call it renewable ammonia very soon because ammonia is already handled at the port through OCI. So it is a very logical carrier to focus on for sure to start the renewable flows.
Celwin Frenzen (host):One of the companies that has been working with ammonia for years is OCI, now in hands of Agrovert. How long have they been established in Rotterdam?
Sjoerd Jenneskens (Agrofert):In Rotterdam since 2010, that was the year that OCI, Reskom Construction Industries, acquired DSM Fertilizer. Myself also, I used to work for DSM in a fertilizer business unit. By 2010, that unit got divested to OCI. This was the production facility in the Southern part of The Netherlands on the site Gemalot, where we have ammonia plants and fertilizer plants. But in those days, we didn't have an import terminal.
Sjoerd Jenneskens (Agrofert):And as DSM, we were already quite interested in acquiring the one and only existing ammonia terminal in The Netherlands, in the Port Of Rotterdam. But while we were on sale, it was not possible to do that strategically. So basically, the moment OCI acquired DSM, we kind of said to the owner, Hey, there's this terminal in Rotterdam. And he said, I know. Go and get it.
Sjoerd Jenneskens (Agrofert):So within a month, we acquired the terminal. Since then it was ours, 2010.
Celwin Frenzen (host):Alright. So you have a lot of experience with ammonia. Why is that experience so valuable right now?
Sjoerd Jenneskens (Agrofert):I think it's important because we didn't touch upon one topic. Of course, ammonia has a lot of benefits, I would say, compared to other hydrogen carriers or hydrogen itself. And it's not that because I'm Mr. OCI or Mr. Ammonia that I'm advocating this.
Sjoerd Jenneskens (Agrofert):It's simply because of the physical and chemical capabilities of ammonia. If you look at it, it's indeed the most attractive molecule to transport hydrogen, already explained by Duna. It's basically you can compare it a bit to the electrical car. Why do we have so many electrical cars? Well, it's the most efficient way to bring wind energy towards the wheels of a car.
Sjoerd Jenneskens (Agrofert):Yeah. Hydrogen car is probably never going to win because it's significantly less efficient. So with ammonia, this is the same. It's at the moment the most efficient, feasible, technological and economical molecule to build on hydrogen economy.
Celwin Frenzen (host):You currently mainly work with hydrogen produced from natural gas. How do
Sjoerd Jenneskens (Agrofert):you see that position in an energy system that is changing? So low carbon hydrogen or blue hydrogen or blue ammonia is produced from natural gas. That's clear. So it's a fossil fuel, which sounds like a disadvantage because we want to go to a completely sustainable energy system, which is renewable. And this renewable energy system is, of course, I would say, the end goal.
Sjoerd Jenneskens (Agrofert):It's the Holy Grail. But you don't get there in one day. That's a transition we need to go through together. And blue ammonia, blue hydrogen produced from natural gas in brand new facilities, actually you can reach a decarbonization across the, let's say, across the value chain, a decarbonization of 98 or higher. So for me, that's not low carbon hydrogen or ammonia, that's ultra low carbon hydrogen And and why is that relevant?
Sjoerd Jenneskens (Agrofert):Well, it's feasible at scale. It's technologically feasible. And it's also economically getting into the point that it's feasible. So blue ammonia will be based on the basis of fossil natural gas. It will be, let's say, a pioneer helping various sectors to decarbonize, but we also believe it will be there in the long term because of the potentially large volumes of low carbon and renewable we will need in the future to feed, let's say, the energy system and the material system and the food systems that we have on this planet.
Celwin Frenzen (host):So ammonia sounds very promising for the short term but it does involve risks as ammonia is a toxic substance and that naturally raises concerns among local residents for instance. What does this mean for an import terminal?
Sjoerd Jenneskens (Agrofert):We make no compromise on safety. So we operate the terminal a 100% on safety, and we've been doing that since many, many years. But we also constantly invest in our people and in our assets and our operations to ensure that the activity is 100% safe because we cannot allow incidents with ammonia. And that's basically the first starting point in anything that we do.
Celwin Frenzen (host):Yeah. Can you name some concrete terms to ensure the safety of the surrounding area as well?
Sjoerd Jenneskens (Agrofert):Yes, yes. So basically, what we do at OCI, of course, there is the law. And like any citizen, we abide to the law as a company. But we do, in many, many cases in the production and in the handling of ammonia, we do more than what is required from a legal perspective, so to say. So we kind of overinvest in our supply chain.
Sjoerd Jenneskens (Agrofert):For example, we transport ammonia in rail tank cars and then we choose to opt for the safest rail tanks cars, which are more heavy on steel, have more protection, have extra crash buffers, have GPS trackers so that we exactly know where they are. That's one example. Another, I would say, relevant example is OCI, together with Dutch governments and technology developers and other players in value chain. We worked on the design and setup of a new regulation on how you design ammonia tanks. Okay.
Sjoerd Jenneskens (Agrofert):So basically, we've redesigned the setup of an ammonia tank, for which we now also have a permit here in the Port Of Rotterdam. So we've obtained the permits to expand the terminal with a new 60,000 ton tank. And we will do that according to the it's a bit technical language, but it's called the PGS 12 regulation. And the PGS-twelve regulation adds a lot of extra safety measures towards building and running an ammonia tank.
Celwin Frenzen (host):Yeah. And for me, as a complete I don't know anything about it. What is the main difference between the old tanks and the new tanks?
Sjoerd Jenneskens (Agrofert):Yeah, basically, so let's say if I compare it to a tank, let's say internationally, let's take a tank from The United States. There they would build a steel tank which contains the ammonia on the inside. And ammonia is a liquid when it's cooled down to -thirty three. So basically, then ammonia behaves as water, just as water in your glass, as long as you keep it at -thirty three. So you have to keep it cold.
Sjoerd Jenneskens (Agrofert):So in The US, I would say they have a steel tank and insulation, and that's it. In The Netherlands, in The old regulation, we used to have a steel tank and an outside concrete wall, and in between what we call an annular space. That's basically a space where, as a human being, you could go in between to perform maintenance. On the new PGS regulation, we will do what we call a steel in steel concrete. So we take the first layer of protection is the steel itself that contains the ammonia.
Sjoerd Jenneskens (Agrofert):Then we have a second layer of steel that in the event of an impact or a rupture, is a second steel layer. And then on the outside, is a big concrete wall that really impacts or protects the tank from impact from the outside. It's kind of an overdesign of the tank to make it extra safe. And it's set up in such a way that in the unlikely event you would still have a leak in the tank, then basically the full content of the tank can go into the space between the concrete and the steel, which also then gives you a lot of room as preventing an incident to ensure that the situation stays contained.
Celwin Frenzen (host):Ammonia may sound abstract to many people but we use it far more often than we realize. Schwert explains what ammonia is used for.
Sjoerd Jenneskens (Agrofert):Ammonia indeed is used today since let's say the 1930s, 1960s and then even more for 80% to produce fertilizer and 20% for, let's say, industrial applications.
Celwin Frenzen (host):And what kind of industrial applications do we have to think about in that case?
Sjoerd Jenneskens (Agrofert):Well, this is a podcast, so I can maybe describe what we see, but we're sitting on a table and it's a table you I think this one is not from IKEA, but a typical table that comes from IKEA. It has a top layer, and in this top layer there's melamine and ammonia as a main component. There's a chair you're sitting on. The nylon in the chair contains ammonia. Then there's the microphone I'm talking and there's plastics in there.
Sjoerd Jenneskens (Agrofert):The molecules of ammonia are also in there. Then there's the carpet on the floor that's also nylon. So everywhere I look around us, here in the TV screen, there is an ammonia molecule to be found. So did together with a consultant some investigation for, let's say, communication purposes, and we found out to our own surprise that in, let's say, the physical world where we human beings use products in our daily life, 80 to 90% of those products contain the ammonia molecule, but in very small amounts. Yeah.
Sjoerd Jenneskens (Agrofert):But it's in there. The molecule is in there, and of course not in its original form, because ammonia is a base raw material that is used by the chemical industry to make all kinds of materials and substances that we use in our daily lives.
Celwin Frenzen (host):Yeah. So we could say that industrial demand is quite big. How important is it for scaling up hydrogen?
Sjoerd Jenneskens (Agrofert):Yeah. So it's a very attractive pathway for scaling up hydrogen because even in the existing, let's say, applications of ammonia, fertilizer and industrial, and we should not underestimate the use for fertilizer, which is actually quite an actual topic, I would say, as we are, at the moment, we're making this podcast. There's a situation in the Arab Gulf. 30% of the world's urea, that's a fertilizer used by farmers worldwide, comes from US Gulf. And the interesting part is that basically, with the fertilizer we produce annually, we feed half of the global population.
Sjoerd Jenneskens (Agrofert):So without fertilizer, there would be enough food on this world, let's say, in one to two years from now for 4,000,000,000 people instead of 8,000,000,000 people. So that all in itself is already an incredible pathway for hydrogen. So 200,000,000 tons ammonia is produced annually, 80% is
Celwin Frenzen (host):for
Sjoerd Jenneskens (Agrofert):fertilizer, and the vast majority of that ammonia today is produced by natural gas and in some cases even with coal. So if you want to go renewable, you want to go low carbon, you want to go sustainable, then there is a huge potential already in the existing market to place these low carbon molecules in this system.
Celwin Frenzen (host):In addition to all industrial applications, new uses are emerging, such as bunkering. Dune explains what ammonia bunkering means for the port.
Duna Uribe (Port of Rotterdam Authority):Well, think it's important to mention that Rotterdam is actually the second global hub for bunkering in the world. So the first one is Singapore and we handle about 10,000,000 tons of bunkering fields. And what are those bunkering fields? Well, it's the conventional fields, but we have up to today about 8% are basically biofuel mix of that 10,000,000. So, and that includes biomethanol and bio LNG, which we're happy with, but we're working towards a future that we're calling it a multi fuel future.
Duna Uribe (Port of Rotterdam Authority):So we want to, as a board, be prepared to have all of these fields of alternative fuels being able to be bunkered in Rotterdam. So for example, LNG, that was a new fuel about, what is it, ten, eight years ago, and now it's common conventional bunkering operation. In 2022, we had the first methanol bunkering operation take place. So that can also happen in Rotterdam. And for ammonia, we're very much getting prepared and making big steps.
Duna Uribe (Port of Rotterdam Authority):So last year we had the bunkering pilot that we did also together with OCI. And in that bunkering pilot, actually the whole operation took place as if the ammonia was used as a bunker, but it was actually a cargo operation, let's say. And we're preparing for to, by this year or next year, by 2027, to have a ammonia bunkering of an actual ammonia engine. So last year when we did the bunker pilot, we were actually too early on. There were no vessels that were running on ammonia in a commercial way.
Duna Uribe (Port of Rotterdam Authority):So that's why we had to adapt, but we hope that by next year, we'll have those vessels, commercial vessels on the water, and then we're able to have a bunkering operation in the port. The whole concept is that as shipping lines, vessel owners are also very committed to decarbonizing and looking at the different technologies. The fuel that they consume is definitely a main one that emits CO2, and therefore, they're looking into decarbonizing by using or switching the fuel that they are using. And therefore, if you look at the order books nowadays is very much, you see a lot of what it's called dual engine. That means that the vessel could choose which engine, therefore which fuel the vessel would be fueled by.
Duna Uribe (Port of Rotterdam Authority):Therefore now you see a lot going to LNG because that's what is largely available today. But in the future it will be methanol or ammonia. Definitely we're making progress on that.
Celwin Frenzen (host):All right. And why is this such an important next step?
Duna Uribe (Port of Rotterdam Authority):Well, shipping and the maritime transportation emits about 2% of the global CO2. So, and as a port and as an industrial port that we are, we're looking at our industrial clients and tenants and helping them and supporting them to see what are their decarbonization paths, but also on the vessel side to the water side. We have projects where we help barge transport operators to decarbonize, but we also have to look into the maritime world because they are the ones linking all this international trade that we will continue to have. So this is this is an extremely important part for decarbonizing the whole urban and industrial area.
Celwin Frenzen (host):Ammonia is a molecule which combines hydrogen and nitrogen. You can also take the hydrogen back out of the ammonia which we call cracking. Schutt explains how this works.
Sjoerd Jenneskens (Agrofert):Basically it's the same process as fusing the two atoms. So you need an amount of energy to have hydrogen connecting with nitrogen and form the ammonia molecule. And basically what you need to do is kind of in a similar installation, You put the molecule under the same amount of energy again and then naturally it delinks again, it decouples. Then you go back to hydrogen and nitrogen. And of course that nitrogen is coming out in the form of N2, which is the same nitrogen molecule that we're breathing here today and not the nitrogen you might hear every now and then in the news that's causing environmental issues.
Sjoerd Jenneskens (Agrofert):Nitrogen deposition and so on. So it's basically the same process, but it does require an amount of energy to break that, let's say, coupling between the nitrogen and hydrogen molecule. Yeah.
Celwin Frenzen (host):And how far along is this technology? Has it been around quite some time?
Sjoerd Jenneskens (Agrofert):Technology is around already for decades. So there is hydrogen cracking sorry, ammonia cracking facilities towards hydrogen around already for decades. But these facilities were used, let's say, an industrial setting where the purity of the hydrogen was not as relevant. So there were remaining some impurities in the hydrogen and for the applications that we nowadays would need the hydrogen for in the industry or maybe when trucks will go to zero carbon, it would be a good route to use hydrogen in trucks because batteries are a little bit less feasible there because of the size. Then hydrogen needs to be very pure And the technology is now basically already also mature to purify the hydrogen to such a point that you really have a very pure product.
Celwin Frenzen (host):Rotterdam is very well connected to the hinterland via barge, rail and road transport. And that's important because the ammonia does not stay in Rotterdam it has to move further down the chain. Schuerd explains the importance of the barge connection.
Sjoerd Jenneskens (Agrofert):The barge connection is very important because it's an efficient way to transport ammonia, large amounts of ammonia in a barge. Basically a barge contains 1,500 tons of ammonia in the existing system, on the Rhine River or the Maas River, whereas a rail tanker would contain 50 tons and a truck would contain 20 or 25 tons. So that's one differentiator. You can reach economies of scale with barges. It's very efficient.
Sjoerd Jenneskens (Agrofert):But secondly, it's also a very safe way to transport ammonia in larger amounts over larger distances. So that's that's that's basically why it is relevant. Basically also for those early starting applications that cannot be fed by a truck system because it's simply too much, but where a pipeline, a dedicated pipeline, would be too large as a start in the transition process.
Celwin Frenzen (host):Yeah. And how do you see this developing in the future, for example, with the Delta Rhein Corridor?
Sjoerd Jenneskens (Agrofert):Yeah, when we talk about the Delta Rhein Corridor, of course, we talk about different molecules that can be transported or even, I would say electricity. So it's either hydrogen. But if you talk about ammonia, then you really need very large amounts of ammonia to kind of justify a pipeline like that. And this is not something that is that is for tomorrow. So it really depends also a bit on, of course, in our energy, let's say, revolution going towards sustainability, have many chicken and egg situations.
Sjoerd Jenneskens (Agrofert):Well, this is one chicken and egg situation. Do you build a pipeline and do you have demand or do you wait until the demand is there and then then build the pipeline? And we have to wait and see what the market will decide in conjunction, of course, with regulators and society on what the preferred mode will be. But if ammonia will be used inland in large amounts, if that's going to be the future, then for sure pipelines are a very safe way to transport large amounts of ammonia. The
Celwin Frenzen (host):ambitions with hydrogen and ammonia are high, but reality can be challenging. I ask both guests what they see as the biggest challenges of the moment.
Duna Uribe (Port of Rotterdam Authority):Yeah. I think Stuart already mentioned about the the chicken and egg, and I think that's exactly the main challenge that we face today. Yeah. That before companies take FIDs or final investment decisions, they are waiting. What are they waiting on?
Duna Uribe (Port of Rotterdam Authority):They're waiting on certainty on regulatory framework. So are the rules and the policies clear? Are they stable? And at this point, unfortunately not all are. So there is a lot of weight on will the mandates and the regulation regarding hydrogen use or let's say ammonia, clean ammonia or renewable ammonia use clear and are they stable?
Duna Uribe (Port of Rotterdam Authority):And then once that is the case, then another point that is very important is, okay, then how are off takers or how are my clients responding? Are they ready to sign contracts? And you see at this point that, and I'm an optimistic, so I try to focus on that, that the pioneers aren't the ones that are really taking the energy transition forward as first movers are really moving along and making bold decisions. Take for example, Shell on their hydrogen production, green hydrogen production, renewable hydrogen in Rotterdam, and then connecting via pipeline, that's the high network to their refinery in Rotterdam. So that's a bold decision and we need more like those.
Duna Uribe (Port of Rotterdam Authority):So I would say that at this point is definitely regulatory certainty and customer appetite.
Celwin Frenzen (host):Yeah. So what in short, what in your eyes is then the greatest uncertainty, Technology, regulation, the market or maybe timing?
Sjoerd Jenneskens (Agrofert):For sure, I would say regulation and policy. That landscape is definitely at the moment the largest, I would say, impediment towards adoption, large scale adoption of low carbon fuels products like hydrogen and ammonia. Basically, we would have had this conversation five or eight years ago, just after, let's say, the Paris Climate Treaty, then we were really talking about, okay, but how to build this system? There was no production. You use ammonia in an engine on vessel?
Sjoerd Jenneskens (Agrofert):All these things were future ideas. But if we are today, it's actually very positive that the whole supply chain basically is there. We can produce low carbon ammonia large scale. We can produce renewable ammonia large scale. It comes at a cost, but even there, compared to the current, I would say, situation, the gap is not immense, but still too big for, let's say, the end consumer, the industrial offtaker, the vessel owner to take the decision.
Sjoerd Jenneskens (Agrofert):Okay, now I'm going to invest, let's say, hundreds of millions in a certain type of vessels for which I feel certain that long term this vessel will have a positive business model. And we've seen regulation changing too much over the years. The European Union, of course, has been very proactive, let's say, since 2018, and we were supported by the US administration of that moment by Biden, who did install a very attractive, I would say, support system for producing renewable energy and renewable molecules and low carbon molecules in The US. There were also good steps made forward in the International Maritime Organization, the IMO, where there was quite broad support for implementing, let's say, a global carbon levy, global carbon tax on shipping. But unfortunately, with the current administration by Trump in The US, this process has been stalled.
Sjoerd Jenneskens (Agrofert):It has been stopped basically by The US. The US is stepping back. So this is creating huge uncertainty for, let's say, investors, for ship owners to really make the switch. So we're seeing on one hand very optimistic that we see that the supply chain is basically there, the technology is there, but we face economic gaps. Economic gaps can definitely and have to be covered by, I would say, policy instruments.
Sjoerd Jenneskens (Agrofert):And then there are many instruments how you can how you can close these gaps. And of course, not everything has to be closed in full by by governments, by taxpayer money, by society. But today the gap is still too big. It's way too risky to take these these investment decisions, particularly on the end user part. So there we need more, I would say, support by global governments.
Sjoerd Jenneskens (Agrofert):Also to set a, let's say, a global playing field, and IMO is a great example. So if this carbon levy on on, let's say, CO2 emissions from seagoing vessels could be implemented, that is definitely going to help investment in vessels that will run on low carbon methanol, low carbon ammonia, and that will help us here in the Port Of Rotterdam also to further develop this low carbon economy.
Celwin Frenzen (host):To close off this episode, I'm wondering when the hydrogen strategy will be a success in Duna's eyes.
Duna Uribe (Port of Rotterdam Authority):I think when we have, in addition to the local locally produced low carbon as well as renewable hydrogen produced in Rotterdam, is underway, they're both under construction. Both low carbon and renewable hydrogen are under construction in The Netherlands and Rotterdam specifically. In addition to that, when we have the first flows of renewable ammonia, and so that's a very short term success, let's say. I'm talking about in the next two, three years, because the good news is that we do see what we call supply. So the production projects haven't taken some investment decisions.
Duna Uribe (Port of Rotterdam Authority):So those would be ready to ship in some time in the short term. And then in the medium term, I would say that that is more on additional terminal projects in Rotterdam to make sure that we are able to have all of those production flows from overseas received into the But European also that you have the applications very locally that we're able to see, hey, that ammonia is going to that vessel, hey, that green ammonia coming from who knows Brazil, the Saudi, Canada, India is coming to that factory in Germany, in The Netherlands, etcetera. So I think that is very, I think it's very good to see the application of what you've been working with so hard and to know, hey, this is actually making a difference of say anything from 70% of carbon emissions reduction after those flows are possible. So definitely a wide range of applications being used through the flows through Rotterdam and hopefully through OCI and in the future through AgriFord And as
Celwin Frenzen (host):what do you hope people will say in, let's say, ten years about the role of Rotterdam?
Duna Uribe (Port of Rotterdam Authority):That we were an instigator, That Port Of Rotterdam, we are an authority, we're a landlord, so we lease land. And we also, of course, manage the safe handling of vessels calling the port. But we are collaborating, supporting, instigating, facilitating, motivating all positive verbs to allow for action to take place. So that we really want market parties to meet each other, to find each other and to make the energy transition happen.
Celwin Frenzen (host):Thanks for listening to this special episode of Hello Hydrogen! Don't forget to subscribe and rate the podcast, wherever you find your podcasts. For more information on this podcast or Hydrogen in the Port Of Rotterdam, please visit portofrotterdam.com/hydrogen