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A podcast where innovative business leaders discuss data: how to think about, how to use it and how it can help us all make better business decisions every day. As they tell their stories of trials and triumphs, you’ll gain key insights to leverage in your own day-to-day operations.
Data Dialogues podcast
Leadership Story Lab Transcript
Rissa Reddan (00:01):
Welcome to the Data Dialogues podcast brought to you by Equifax. My name is Rissa Redden, and I am your host business. Storytelling is important, especially when you are trying to connect with your audience while clarifying complex information. The good news is that storytelling is a skill that can be learned, practiced, and refined over time. Understanding your audience and what matters most to them is important. But how can you communicate the meaning and implications of massive quantities of relevant data to your audience, and persuade them to agree with your ideas and plans? In this podcast, we're putting focus on storytelling with data. I am joined by Reena Kansal, chief operating officer and story facilitator at Leadership Story Lab, who will discuss how to use story to communicate data-rich messages, more effectively and more memorably. Reena is an expert in helping clients find the balance between creativity and structure in business communication. Every day, she's helping people tell stories to be more persuasive and engaging in presentations. Welcome Reena. And thank you for joining us.
Reena Kansal (01:04):
Thank you. Rissa always a joy to chat with you.
Rissa Reddan (01:07):
Thank you, Reena. For listeners who may not be familiar with Leadership Story Lab, could you please tell us a little bit about the company and a little bit about the work that you do now?
Reena Kansal
Yeah, sure. So for the past 12 years we've been doing storytelling before. It was the cool leadership skill to know we leadership story lab coaches and trains leaders like you mentioned to become more engaging and persuasive in their communication to help them gain a competitive edge. And we do that by giving them tools and frameworks and guidance and lots of space to practice while they try to share their data and insights more effectively for clients. For example, one of our clients who there are market agency for nonprofit companies, they tend to deliver lots of data. And as a result of the training, they were able to distill 65 pages worth of data slides down to 30 words. And you know, being able to drill down to this key essence while explaining complicated data sets has been really meaningful and effective for them.
Rissa Reddan
I think you raise a really interesting topic of responsibility of the message and of it. It's not for the reader to distill the 65 pages. It's for the speaker or the presenter to distill that down. And I think we've all been met with lots of information that is being sent our way, but it's so refreshing to have something that is a distillation and is clearly articulated that it's really beautiful. And I feel like it's one of those experiences that you don't even realize it when it's happening. You just have received the information without having to do a lot of heavy lifting, if that makes sense. And could you elaborate a little bit more Reena on what is leadership storytelling with data and why is it important? And Reena, I'm curious to ask you something. When I have told stories myself in a large setting or for a large event, what I've found is that people will come up to me afterwards and they'll want to tell me their version of that story. And I feel like the storytelling really opens up a door for what's your reaction to that. Do you agree? Do you disagree? Tell me what you think.
Reena Kansal
Yeah. That makes sense. I kind of, to your point, there's lots of data. But the data itself doesn't create meaning. So as the storyteller, it's our responsibility to create that meaning and then share that meaning so that people can take action on it. Business storytelling is all about how do you persuade your audience to take action?
Rissa Reddan (05:44):
It was interesting. I opened up a conference that we had a couple of years ago now that the audience was bankers. And I was thinking about my first experiences walking into a bank. And I remembered walking into the bank with my grandmother, who was the office manager for a car dealership in my hometown, and she would come in with the zipper pouch. It was the leather pouch, and she would bring the deposits to the bank. And what I remembered most was the Dum Dum suckers that you would get as a kid at the bank. And so I handed Dum Dum suckers to everybody at the event. And it was just so interesting to open up with something that perhaps was unexpected, but yet it conjures a memory for people of what it's like to have that experience with banking. And of course banking has changed rapidly, but it'll be interesting to see what today's Dum Dum sucker is.
Reena Kansal (06:55):
Yeah. Great question, Rissa. The author Allen Weis noted logic makes you think, but emotion makes you act. And so we define leadership storytelling as that strategic sequencing of the facts and the emotion because we know from cognitive psychology, that information is 20 times more likely to be remembered if it's anchored in a narrative and especially in competitive situations, whether we're pitching for new business or asking for more resources from our manager or even up for promotion, you'll find that there'll be many people with right credentials and qualifications and that data, but it's really showing your true character. Who you are and your values that help you stand out and be more memorable. And that leadership storytelling weaving that data and information throughout your story allows you to do this more effectively and more authentically and have that more meaningful connection with your audience.
Rissan Reddan
That's great. Another question for you, Reena. What is the difference between proving and persuading? And who doesn't want to be intrigued and delighted in this day and age? I think that's great. I often will gift the book, Let the Story Do the Work. I'm a big believer in the book and I feel like it's been incredibly helpful to me. And in the book, there is a chapter on storytelling with data. Could you tell us a little bit about the book and a little bit about the process for how to communicate the meaning of massive quantities of data to your audience?
Reena Kansal
Thank you for sharing the book. So the book is written by my good colleague and friend classmate, and then founder and chief's story facilitator of leadership story lab, Esther Cho. It is a great resource filled with lots of different templates and frameworks and it covers a lot of different situations that where you can apply storytelling, but around data and storytelling. I like to boil it down into, I guess, three main things to consider when you are working with data and crafting your story. I would always say, first is always starting with your audience, knowing who your audience is. You know, what do they wanna know? What do they need to know which may be different. And then more importantly, why should they care about what you need to share? You know, helping keep that audience and purpose in mind and delivering data is really a great way to connect with them.
And you know, that we call it the curse of knowledge. Once we know something it's often very impossible for us to imagine what it's like not to. You do all the research, you do all the analysis, you know, all the steps you've gone through it, you know, every, all, everything. But think, take a minute to think about the audience, put yourself in their shoes. They may not have come through that journey with you. So where are they? Peel back those layers before presenting to your audience and then take them on that journey that you've been on. So I would start with knowing your audience. The second part is, you know, we kind of touched upon it a little bit earlier, was creating meaning and we have a lot of data. We have a lot of information. Your audience may or may not be by how much you've collected or done.
So create that meaning for them. For example, one of our clients used to start their presentations with, you know, your contract has a value of $30 million, a 10% increase from last year and you have 15 million in discount. Now, like I said, with intrigue and delight first, and then data dump, this kind of takes out any kind of intrigue or mystery in what you're going to say. And so instead start with that something. Give them enough that they're intrigued and then share. Take them on that journey and then weave in the data later where it proves it. So, starting with your audience, creating meaning out of the data, and then the last piece is your takeaway. You know, like I mentioned earlier, business storytelling is all about persuading your audience to take some kind of action at the end.
Reena Kansal (12:51):
So, what do you want them to do after they've listened to your message and shared and heard about your research or data and analysis? You know, research by psychologists named ebbing house is famous for the forgetting curve, and his research found that humans tend to forget a lot and very quickly. So after about a week's worth of information, I think your audience typically only remembers 10% from a week ago. So, it's really important to take a minute to say, after I'm done with my presentation, what's that one or two or three things you want your audience to remember. Even a week, a month later? So, I'd recommend emphasizing no more than three numbers at a time in your data storytelling. That doesn't mean you can't share more than that, but your story arc should really rally around those three main numbers.
Rissa Reddan (18:19):
That's a great example. And I'm reminded of attending a conference a number of years ago now. And it was fascinating to me because it was a panel of marketers, maybe four or five marketers talking about the importance of storytelling. But not one told a story. I think that there's growing recognition of the importance, but then I think you also want to see people not just talk about storytelling, but be the storyteller. So I think that was a really lovely example of that marriage of data and story. So, thank you for sharing that.
Reena Kansal
Yeah, I think lots of times we get so used to saying we have to deliver an executive summary versus an executive story. So we start off with presentations saying, if you invest in this vertical and you estimate this kind of revenue and it'll take this much to launch, it gives everything away. It's okay to break that up and create that intrigue by sharing enough to peak their curiosity again, but yet weave in the data and the other answers throughout your presentation as well in the story format.
Rissa Reddan (18:55):
What would you recommend to somebody who has an interest in becoming a better storyteller? What recommendations do you have for people to become better storytellers?
Reena Kansal
So, I actually never thought I was a good storyteller until I met Esther Choi. She really believes that it's not something this magical gene you have to be born with. It is a trainable skill where with the right tools, guidance, and practice, you can be a great storyteller and you don't have to do superheroic things as well. Like I mentioned, even the small things day to day, things can make great stories. You just need the right tools and practice. So I would start with how many times we're so busy putting the slides of the decks, the slides, and the decks together to step back and take some time to say, Hey, you know what? Now I've done all this work. How am I going to communicate that? And use IRS: that intriguing beginning, riveting middle and satisfying end to be your guide to practice communicating your findings. The other thing as an introvert, I found this to be very comforting to me. To be a good storyteller, you have to be a good story collector first. And you collecting stories to build a story library for yourself. And I have found that asking good questions helps create that space for others to share their stories and for you to listen and then collect good stories. And that practice as well as collecting good stories together helps you become that story connoisseur and help you spot what makes a good story. How do I deconstruct that? And then how do I now use that when I'm communicating in stories? So, I would say keep practicing and keep collecting.
Rissa Reddan (21:35):
I think that's exactly right. And I think it's so interesting Reena. I believe that's one of the biggest misconceptions of storytelling is that it's innate. That you are a fully-formed storyteller or you're not. Because I think that it is as with most things. It's a skill and it's a muscle and you need to exercise that muscle regularly to get stronger and stronger with this particular skill. One of my pandemic projects was to pursue a story facilitator certification. And I thought it was really interesting. I was just flipping through the latest Booth magazine University of Chicago magazine. And there's an article from professor Lisa Staun about the importance of being ready and willing to be known as a leader. And I thought that was really interesting because I feel like what you're doing with storytelling is helping people to share about themselves. To be known or to create connection or create common ground in the workplace. And I'd be curious to get your reaction to that idea of being known.
Reena Kansal
Yeah, I think the storytelling helps you be known on a more deeper level as well. We've worked with individuals of, you know, oftentimes we know what we do or how we do it, but it's really why we do it. Going off assignments and next golden circles, why we do it. And how do you articulate that 'why' in a leadership story that really conveys your true, authentic self and your values and your beliefs that really make you known. And I think storytelling is a great way to help you communicate and share that build trust with your teams, as well as motivate your teams to do that.
Rissa Reddan (23:32):
I was really struck by storytelling going back a number of years ago now. I was in an interview situation and the question that the person interviewing me asked was: Rissa, in your background, I see that you were a strategic University of Chicago, MBA, you know, blah, blah, blah. But can you take action? Are you action-oriented? Do you have a bias for action? The question was something along those lines and for whatever reason at this moment in time, I thought of a picture. So I asked, well, can I show you a picture that's on my phone? So I reach in, grab my phone, and I show the picture. And this picture is a horse and it's me. And it's a police officer and it's a man standing in the background. And I said, I want tell you about this picture. And it was leaving a festival in Winter Park, Colorado and walking across the main highway in winter park. A horse was loose and it was running down the street and you could see people in their cars, sort of all looking at this horse and wondering what to do. I'm not much of a horse person, but it seemed like somebody needed to do something in this moment. So I stepped into the road and I grabbed the, I don't even know halter. I'm sure I don't have the terminology right. And I took the horse to the side of the road. And as I was doing that, a police officer showed up and the owner showed up for the horse. And so it's this funny picture of me with the horse and the police officer and the man, and a funny smile on my face because this is not typical for me. And so I turned to the interviewer and I said, so if you're curious if I have a bias for action, I would say that, yes, I do. And now the downside of that is I think in the interview process, I became known as the horse woman, but I think that that just illustrates stickiness of story and that it was, it really struck me as a way to quickly and effectively communicate a bit about who I I was or who I am. And that really, for me illustrated the magic or the power of storytelling. But I do think that the point that you raise is a great one around the importance of practice and how do you take a new topic, or how do you approach it sort of in a systematic or methodical way to help bring that story to life?
Reena Kansal
Yeah, that's wonderful. That story provides texture of who you are Rissa, even if I have never met you before. And that visual I think is really important as well. I'm sure that's one the interviewer might still remember because the visual. There's been research done that the visual actually the brain process a lot takes a lot more input from the visual elements that we see and make it memorable. So thank you for sharing that.
Rissa Reddan (27:01):
Reena, we've talked about the importance of practice, the importance of story. Could you give us another example of a story, that is I'm certain if you're telling it, it's well crafted. But for our audience today?
Reena Kansal
Okay. Yeah. So we've worked with the many data professionals. But one example in particular that comes to mind is we were working with a real estate investment hedge fund on revamping their pitch book. And you know, at that time the fund's leader was having trouble raising more assets to manage. And when we look through the existing pitch book, we noticed that every slide was kind of answering the same question of we're so awesome. Why wouldn't any client want to invest in us? Well, of course, that's what most investment pitchbooks look like. And you know, if you are comparing multiple, they get lost in the competition. Everyone sounds the same. So when we started our work with them, we shifted our perspective toward anticipating the prospective clients' questions instead of focusing on the company themselves. And these questions started emerging of. How did the fund have such seller performance for such a long time? Or can this team continue its track record? And so through uncovering these questions that the client would ask, we were then able to redo the story arc with the pitch book and make it more narrative focused that revealed risk, that kind of like you said, the texture of this team, of company, and what it would mean to work with them. And it worked well because the firm achieved its asset raising goals within 18 months after going out with this new PitchBook.
Rissa Reddan (29:02):
That's great. That's a great example. Well, this has been another great day of the Dialogue Dialogues podcast. Thank you so much for joining us today. Reena, any last comments or thoughts before we sign off?
Reena Kansal
I would challenge you all to keep practicing and would welcome you to join our story lab. We host it every month. And it is a small group coaching environment where everyone can come with a story, get some practice, sharing it as well as get some constructive feedback. So it's a great way to start, and I look forward to seeing you at story lab.
Rissa Reddan (29:41):
Great. Thank you, Reena. And one last question for you. For anyone who would like to connect to learn more, where can they find you?
Reena Kansal
You can find me at leadershipstorylab.com.
Rissa Reddan (29:55):
Reena, thank you so much for joining us for today's Data Dialogues podcast, and for this fascinating conversation.