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"Winning in Ministry" is a podcast dedicated to empowering church leaders and ministry professionals with the tools and insights needed to thrive in their spiritual and organizational roles. Each episode features engaging discussions with experienced pastors, ministry experts, and thought leaders who share their wisdom on effective leadership, congregational growth, and navigating the challenges of modern ministry. Whether you're looking for inspiration, practical advice, or strategies to enhance your ministry's impact, "Winning in Ministry" offers valuable content to help you lead with confidence and purpose. Tune in to discover how to overcome obstacles, foster a vibrant church community, and achieve success in your ministry journey.
Do you ever feel like you can't last another day?
Ray:Why are so many ministers on the edge of burnout?
Tom:Is it even possible to feel refreshed in ministry?
Ray:On this episode of the Winning in Ministry podcast, we're bringing water to the flames of burnout. Hang in there, pastor. There's hope. We're here to help you go the distance.
Intro voice:You're listening to the Winning in Ministry podcast where members of the Edify Leaders Ministry coaching team share insights and inspiration they have gained as they seek to strengthen ministers for exponential impact in life and ministry. And now, here are your hosts, Ray Sanders and Tom Matthew.
Ray:Welcome to this edition of the Winning in Ministry podcast. I'm happy you've come along for the ride for the podcast. I'm your host, Ray Sanders, and I know many of you are going to relate to today's show. Joining me in studio, as always, is my fearless cohost, mister Tom Matthew.
Rick:Fearless. I like that. I I I like that. Fearless is good.
Tom:That's good. Well, today, we're talking about burnout in ministry. If you ever felt like you're running on fumes or questioned whether you can keep going or not, you're not alone. We wanna get honest about what burnout looks like and more importantly, how you can fight it. Joining us are two leaders who are well qualified to speak on this topic.
Tom:They've navigated seasons of ministry fatigue, and they've come out on the other side stronger. They've gone the distance. So please help me welcome pastor Rick and pastor Wendell.
Ray:Hey, guys. Welcome to the show today. Why don't you give everybody a little bit of an insight on, your backgrounds and tell them what you're up to these days?
Wendall:Go ahead.
Rick:Well, as already been said, I'm Rick Fry, and, I have spent fifty four years in the ministry. I've had the privilege of pastoring seven churches during these fifty four years. About two years ago, I retired from First Baptist Church Jinx where I had pastored there for twenty years. And God just blessed, and we had a great ministry. Since I've been retired, we're working with edify leaders and trying to come alongside and encourage pastors.
Rick:I know what it meant to me to have pastors to hold the rope for me and be there for me, and so that's one of the things I'm trying to do today and, having a ball doing it. It's been what some of the most rewarding time of my ministry, to be honest with you, just coming along pastors and kinda being a pastor to pastors.
Ray:Awesome. Wendell?
Wendall:Well, thank you, Ray. It's it's a thrill to be with you. I've pastored several years myself, forty three years, and have been involved in denominational work. And I currently work for a a foundation as well as, like, do some interim work and try to stay very connected with edify leaders, which I love. And I'm thrilled today to be with you guys to talk about a very vital part of of ministry.
Ray:Well, we're certainly glad to have you guys on the program. I kinda wanna unpack the topic for us. And I know you guys are familiar with this, but, you know, ministry leaders face a battle that often goes unseen. We see them on the stage. We see what they're doing.
Ray:They seem very active, very healthy, but there's a lot going on behind the scenes, if you will. And the daily demands of shepherding people, developing teams, And to be honest, trying to impact your local community, it's a it's a high calling, but it has a a heavy burden that comes with it. It's a burden to bear. And for thousands of ministers, I mean thousands, it can really lead to some things that, Barna's study pointed out a few years back and we did our own study with Oklahoma Baptist University. And here's what we found is unfortunately, lot of pastors are facing discouragement.
Ray:It's the number one reason that ministers leave the ministry. You know, they get into ministry thinking it's gonna be awesome. It's gonna be great. And it is in many ways, but somewhere along the way, they just get discouraged. And it's the number one reason ministers leave the ministry.
Ray:Another reason that's given is isolation. And it's hard to imagine that someone that's surrounded by so many people, so active in the community faces loneliness. And loneliness ranks among some of the top three challenges that the pastors face, ministers face, every day. And then there's just the overall overwhelming pressures. There's just all kinds of pressures.
Ray:The financial stress. I often say to layman, I say, would you want to live on your pastor's salary? Would you be able to feed your family based upon the financial stress that they're under? Somehow, we think that ministers, they apparently don't need as much money to live as some of the rest of us do. So there's the financial pressures that come with that and there's the burnout and the family pressures that weigh on them, raising kids in a glass house.
Ray:And that's a heavy thing. But burnout is also one of the leading causes of ministers stepping away. In that study, they found that nearly half of all ministry leaders have felt the weight so heavy, so heavy that they've seriously considered leaving the ministry. I mean, guys, what is going on here? What what's what's happening?
Ray:You know, COVID, we got through COVID and that was rough. But, a lot of guys are still challenged. That's not to say that every pastor out there is just down in the dumps and doom and gloom. But even the strongest, even the most healthy, these are real challenges. Discouragement, isolation, overwhelming pressures, the, the temptation or the the risk of being burned out.
Ray:What's going on? Why is this happening? You guys have been in ministry for a long time. What's happening?
Wendall:Well, a lot of times, Ray, we're all stressed out and no place to go.
Ray:Yeah.
Wendall:And I think for us to deal with stress, we need to understand the root of it. I think there's internal stress, stress that we put on ourselves, and then there's external stress, stress that others put on the minister. And someone said that one thing that a minister ought to have is a hobby that they could start and complete because the work of ministry is ongoing. You finish on Sunday. You start again on Monday.
Wendall:But I think there's a couple of kinds of of stress just like cholesterol. There's good stress, and there's bad stress. There's good cholesterol. There's bad cholesterol. We've all heard the example of a violin string that needs to have tension to play its most beautiful music.
Wendall:So I think there is a modicum of stress and tension that leads us to do our very best. But the key for me is is really not so much the stress because everybody's going to have Bob says in this world, there will be tribulations. But it's how we react, how we respond, and then how we incorporate that stress into our own lives.
Rick:That's good. Yeah. I I agree wholeheartedly, with Wendell. I I think one of the things I was reading this morning. If you look across the Southern Baptist Convention right now, about 47% of our churches are only of 50 people.
Rick:88% are 200 or less. And I know in my life, when I was pastoring that small church, I was the only guy there. I didn't have a staff. I felt like it was all on me. I think there's a sense of where if we're not careful, the church can put this sense of performance upon us.
Rick:So we feel like, you know, we've gotta preach the best sermons. And back when I started, you gotta remember, and I know Wendell knows this, we were preaching Sunday morning, Sunday night, and Wednesday night. Yeah. So you had three entirely different sermons you had to get together. Plus, you were doing counseling.
Rick:You were also doing weddings and funerals. And so trying to be a dad, a husband, you're trying to be all those things. And I think you it's so easy to put that added pressure upon us that we feel like, again, we've gotta perform. We gotta perform well. And and and so I think that stress, just overwhelms us.
Rick:And, I think that's where you find yourself getting lonely. I think that's where you find yourself having the burnout. To be honest with you, it happened to me. I had a point where I was burning the candle at both ends because I was trying to be all things to all people at all times. And, you know, God probably slowed me down and had to, in a sense, put me in a hospital because they didn't know what was going on with me.
Rick:And that's when the doctor told me, said, man, Rick, you're you're you're in your twenties, but you're burning the count at both ends. And I finally began to realize I had to have a balance. I had to pace myself and realize that, number one, I couldn't do it all. And I think pastors that are pastoring where they're either by vocational or they're the only guy on staff, it's so easy to fall into that. But I think that's another reason why you have to train leaders, and you gotta train people in your church and teach your church to realize, guys, I can't do it all.
Rick:And I think it's where discipling comes in. I think that's where, the accountability comes in. But, I have found this. I talked to young pastors or pastors today that are pastoring in those size churches. That's where I seem to see more burnout and more just stress and don't know how to release it.
Ray:One thing's for sure. A pastor wears many hats, and it's not just a collar. You know, you're the janitor. You're the the dishwasher. You're the you know, you're you're dipping out the baked beans at the potluck dinner.
Ray:I mean, it's it's everything. You know? There's a lot there's a a lot going on. You know? I I love the old saying, he's a jack of all trade and a master of none.
Ray:Mhmm. Jack of all trades and a master of none. If you're not careful, I mean, you you look like the juggler at the circus. And somehow pastors, I mean, you talk about burning the candle from both ends. I have in my mind this image of a of a pastor staying up late at night trying to finish up a sermon for, you know, the Sunday morning or maybe it's a funeral or a marriage that he's doing.
Ray:And the candle is truly burning from both ends, but he's holding a flashlight in his mouth. I mean, not only is he burning it from both ends, he's holding a flashlight in his mouth. And so what what does somebody do? I one of the things that comes to mind is and we don't always have the luxury of this, but, I think it's good for a pastor sometimes when they're feeling that sense of burnout. It's like, is this the highest and best use of my time?
Ray:Yeah. Do I need to be the one to go pick up a truckload of bottled water for youth camp? And, or do I have to organize every aspect of the service? You know, there's that old saying that if we want something done right, you gotta do it yourself. And unless some of this burnout is self imposed Mhmm.
Ray:I mean Mhmm. Know, we think we gotta do it ourselves. So there's a little there's a little phrase. It's four d's that I love, and I and I'll just throw it out there. We're gonna talk about practical tips later.
Ray:And I know Tom's got some questions coming up, but I'm I'm a real fan of this little phrase. Is it the highest and best use of my time? Is this something I need to do, dump, delegate, or delay. Mhmm. And if you're a pastor out there, most of the time you're gonna answer it.
Ray:Well, I really I I live a one d life. Mhmm. Just do it. It's it's something I gotta do. Mhmm.
Ray:And there's nothing I can dump. I don't wanna get fired. I I mean, I don't know if anybody knows or not, but, you know, I don't see a lot of job openings out there. So I guess I gotta do it. I can't dump it.
Ray:Delegate? Who am gonna delegate it to? One of my kids? I'm in a small church. But you know what?
Ray:It's the body of Christ. It's the body of Christ. And, you know, that's why I think the the scripture is pretty clear. We need to pray for more workers and sometimes maybe there's somebody that we could delegate it to. Would they do it exactly at the level we want?
Ray:Would we have enough fog machine fog on the stage if we let somebody do what we wanted? Maybe not. But maybe we need we need to delegate it. But then maybe we just need to delay it. Do we have to do it all before Sunday?
Ray:Maybe we need to just wait a little bit. So that's that's some practical stuff. You got some stuff, Tom. Go ahead.
Tom:Yeah. I mean, you know, Rick, while you were talking to one of the things that I was processing is this. Burnout doesn't happen overnight. It just doesn't you don't just wake up and you burn out, but it's a slow drift. And so when you look back and and not just in that moment, but over the years, for you and then and then, Wendell, you can speak into this as well.
Tom:But what would be the warning signs that, you know, like, man, I should have taken notice of that, and that would have helped me if I had seen that red flag that was just there right in front of me. I just kind of passed by it. But what are the warning signs that ministers can kind of take note of in their lives when they're headed towards that burnout, but they're not there yet?
Rick:Well, that's a good question, Tom. I think for me as I look back, one, you find yourself, you kinda find yourself, isolating yourself, to be honest with you. You're tired. And, usually, when you get tired, you get cranky. You kinda end up you know, you cut people off.
Rick:You, because you're tired, you're cranky, you're irritable. You're not yourself. And I think those are some of the big key issues is that you're just not yourself. And and I'll be honest with you. For me, you know, the person who knows me best is Diane.
Rick:You know, we've now been married fifty plus years. And so even in our younger years in ministry, you know, she could tell something wasn't wasn't right, something was out of kilter, and, something wasn't in sync. And so she was I should have listened to her, to be honest with you. And I think sometimes God you gotta remember we cease to be two, and when we get married, we become one. And, you know, she's become a part of this ministry with me.
Rick:And so there's things that she sees and knows that, I think a lot of times as as a pastor, as a husband, we fail to listen and take note of what her wife is trying to tell us.
Ray:That's
Rick:good. Because she saw things going on in me that I didn't see or that I didn't want to admit.
Ray:Mhmm. You hit you hit on something, I call them indicators. You know, we're we're here in the, the The Plains. We're a plain state, And, there's a lot of farm pond fishing that goes on. And when you're out there on a farm pond, I don't know about you guys.
Ray:Some of you guys are probably bottom fishers or maybe you you, use crank bait, but I'm just an old fashioned fisherman and I use a I use a bobber and a worm. And that bobber is an an indicator. And a lot of times I I think of that bobber as a pastor and they're bobbing up and down. When that and sometimes it goes under, then it comes back up for air. It comes back down.
Ray:It comes back up for air. Then you and it's a it's a fight. You got a battle on your hands. You're trying to pull a deacon into your perspective. And then it gets off the hook and, you know, man, you've blown it.
Ray:And those those bobbers, there there's indicators. There starts to be indicators that show up in our life, and they can those indicators can turn into triggers. Mhmm. And some of the indicators, I I call them four f's. There's four f's.
Ray:And if you're out there and you're listening and you're pastor and thinking, oh, man. I might have some of these indicators, these these four f's I'm I'm starting to see it. And the first one is fear. Mhmm. And as much as we think of a lot of ministers as preachers, a lot of them are pastors.
Ray:And because there's pat they're pastors, they love people. And because they love people, they intend to be what? People pleasers. And they're afraid of what? What people are gonna think and so they live in fear.
Ray:And if you find your better judgment being clouded by, well, I wonder how so and so would think about it or I wonder how that would be or I'm afraid if I do that, they're not going to like me or if I do this, I might lose my job. If you're starting to live in fear all the time and that's your motivation, then you probably have some indicators creeping into your life that if that keeps up, nobody can live in fear. And fear is a choice, by the way.
Rick:True.
Ray:Danger is rare, but fear is a choice. But if you're constantly living in fear, you can't you can't survive like that. It'll it'll you will burn out. Yeah. So fear is number one.
Ray:Number two is frustration. If you're constantly finding yourself frustrated and who doesn't get frustrated? But if you're frustrated with your staff, you're you're frustrated with the order of service. You're frustrated by how Mary Beth's saying and she didn't hit all the notes on Sunday morning. You're frustrated by, you know, the the the dinner after church.
Ray:You're frustrated with your kids. You're frustrated with your wife. If frustration's a part of your vocabulary and you're just constantly got an edge about you, probably a trigger. It's it's a sign. There there's a there's a indicator that's coming up.
Ray:Here's another one. Just flat out fatigued. You know, I understand pastors only work one day a week. They ought to have plenty six days a week that they can sleep. Not I mean, it's a twenty four seven, three sixty five issue.
Ray:You know, you wanna know if you really have a
Rick:day
Ray:off. A a true day off means you don't have to answer your phone. I don't know one pastor that doesn't have that phone in their pocket all the time. You can say it's your day off, but guess what? You have a day off, you get a phone call.
Ray:What are you doing? You're back in pastor mode. You're back in minister mode. You are on 247365. I'm sorry.
Ray:There's not a horse. There's not a mule. There's not anybody I know that can keep up that kind of pace. And why should a pastor? The Lord modeled it for us, you know, from very much in creation.
Ray:I mean, he he took rest. The best companies out there that do the best, they rest. And so if you're fatigued and you're tired all the time, that's an indicator you're
Rick:about
Ray:And to burn here's another one. If you're wolfing down, if you're, if you're living your lunch through the drive through or you're living off Dolly Madison's or you're just wolfing it down to get to the next meeting and you're grabbing this or a Snickers and you and you end, you end up hangry. It's gonna show up in a lot of ways. You know, we the old days we call it Dunlap's disease. Your belly's Dunlap's over your belt line.
Ray:And if you're starting to where your belly's Dunlap's over your belt line, it's probably an indication you're about to burn out because we start putting on weight. It's it's comfort. We're trying to gain comfort. We're looking at burning out. So I'm just I'm just sitting here thinking, Rick, based on what you said.
Ray:I I I bet you a Rick Fry and a Wendell Lang wish someday somebody would have told them about the four s, and and they could talk about it. So, Wendell, you're biting. You're chomping at the bit. I know you're ready to say something. Jump in here, Wendell.
Wendall:Well, I like I like the four s. You you've done a good job. What if I I just wrote down three p's that that might transition us a a little bit if you'd like to. Do it. And and I think what helps us with our stress is when we prepare for active and busy seasons of life.
Wendall:The church is like a two humped camel up in the fall, down in the winter, up in the spring, down in the summer. Now it's gotten, Rick, to where it's up twelve months a year.
Rick:Right.
Wendall:But we can prepare for seasonal craziness. We can. We can plan for it. I think we also need to the second p is to promote it by telling other people what we're going through, what we're doing. If we have study time, we're still going to drop everything, but at least we can lay out, okay.
Wendall:Maybe on this day of the week, if you can protect me, I'm going to be in the word in prayer in preparation. And then, Ray Fundley, is to partner with someone. Maybe we get an accountability group. There are pastors, Rick, that we know and love that think psychotherapy is a major part of their well-being. And so they have regular psychotherapy.
Wendall:I I've learned from this guy. I I think there's some value in that. The bottom line, we need to find someone who we can partner with, and we can tell them the things that used to bring me joy are now producing dread. And I think that is a key that that that we're stressed out. We're maxed out.
Ray:Well, to this point, I think that that's a perfect justification for a pastor getting involved with edified leaders. Partner with edified leaders, somebody that'll come alongside you helping you navigate the challenges you face in life and work. That's what edified leaders is all about. So amen to that partnering. Were you were you gonna say anything else, or Rick, were you gonna weigh in, Tom?
Ray:What are your thoughts?
Tom:Well, this I mean, I was just gonna say, I I I like that because you're providing a solution. The question isn't, are you burning out? Or it's it's a matter of, like, when is that gonna happen? Because, in pastoral ministry, we're headed towards that direction because you just keep adding more and more and more to your plate. Nothing's coming off.
Tom:Right? And so you're just continuing to add. And so I like, Wendell, that you've you've provided a solution. I think one of the things that I think about, and and, Rick, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this too, but is you've gotta take time out in order to prepare. And I think people, the pastors, ministers, you just don't have that margin, but you've gotta create that margin to say, if I don't take time to prepare, then the destination that I'm headed towards is gonna be out of ministry, not staying in ministry, which we're seeing happen.
Tom:So, you know, with that preparation, it's gonna take a day. It's gonna take some time. But but what else would you say? And, Rick, how did that kind of hit you as he he started hitting on solutions? And you might have some others as well.
Rick:Well, one of the things I did is, and I learned this, in earlier years. I again, I had to set aside some time. And so, I would set aside certain days of the week. Those were my study days. Those were the days that, you know, I basically, I didn't go to the office.
Rick:I stayed home, and I studied at home. And the reason why because if I got to the office, I'm a very relational person. And so somebody comes by and need to see the pastor, I would stop what I was doing. You know, I'd talk to him. Well, then it took you three times longer to get back into the groove of things.
Rick:So I just stayed away from the church on those study days. And I think when you're able to be in a church where you have an administrative assistant, you know, she can she can really become the keeper of that door. She can help you. You just sit down with her. You let her know this is what I've gotta get done.
Rick:This is where I'm at. And so for me, I had an administrative assistant that was just unbelievable, and she really protected that time for me. Now I always told her if there was an emergency, yes. You get it through. If it was my family, that you get it through.
Rick:But I I think for all of us, one of the things I think we fail to realize, you know, as a pastor, you you want your church to grow. I mean, that's why why we're here. We wanna see people saved. We wanna see people one to Christ. I think we fail to realize that each time a person walks the aisle, gets saved, joins your church, you add to the numbers of people that you also have to care for.
Rick:So the bigger you get, in other words, you're you're you're adding to you're adding to it. It's not problems, but you're adding to your plate.
Tom:Yep.
Rick:So as church counseling.
Ray:It sounds like marital counseling. I had six kids. I finally figured it out, Wendell.
Rick:Yeah. And so, you know, you you want your church to grow, but, man, every every person that walked the aisle and joined your church, again, that was added That's good. Added needs because everybody has needs, and everybody has expectations for their pastor. So as the church grows, it just so you have to really learn, as Wendell said, to sit down and and do some planning, do some preparation, make sure you're making time. And I think one of the key things that I learned early in ministry was I needed times to break away.
Rick:So I would set into the calendar a time for me and Diane just to get away, and maybe it's a weekend, whatever. And then there were times I just got away by myself just to pray and to kinda refocus and and get a new sense of balance and where we were ahead and what we were doing. And I think there's a lot of times pastors, they almost feel guilty. You know? They feel guilty if they take an offer a Sunday and take a weekend or take a week off and get away.
Rick:So I think those are key things that a pastor has to do. It's like anything, if you don't write into your calendar, your calendar will write it out. And so you gotta plan for that and prepare for that and think about that. It's like anything. You know?
Rick:It's like Ray was saying about, you know, you start running all the time, so you're eating the the wrong kind of foods. And I think probably a lot of people, when they get stressed out, they stress eat, you know, those kind of things. And so I think what happens is, you know, just as you try to set your tone to, okay. I don't wanna do those things. I've gotta set my my pattern up where I am spending time to be healthy, not just healthy physically, but healthy spiritually.
Rick:And so you've gotta take that time to break away, and be by yourself with the Lord or be you and your wife. But if if you don't, you're you're gonna burn out.
Wendall:Ray, I'd like to add right here. You you asked a few minutes ago about how we know when we're falling prey to this mess called stress. And one way one indicator, I think the word that you used, is that the spiritual disciplines of our life, like Rick talked about, those become drudgery drudgery, and we end up bypassing the spiritual disciplines in order to do very good things, but not spiritual discipline, and we become captive to the tyranny of the urgent.
Rick:Yep.
Wendall:And so we start doing all the urgent things and missing the truly important things in life.
Rick:Mhmm. Well and when you do that, you start pulling out of a dry well because you're not putting anything back into it just for you. You think about how many times as a pastor, you're constantly giving out. Okay? You're preparing to preach.
Rick:You're preparing to teach. You're preparing to do this. And so if you're not if you're not taking the time to just feed your soul, then you start pulling out of a dry well.
Wendall:Mhmm.
Rick:And that's that is a sign of being unhealthy, and that's a sign that you're fixing to get yourself in trouble.
Tom:Yeah. Oh, it's really good. You know, one of the lines at edify leaders of our ministers manifesto, which if you're not familiar with, if you head over to edifyleaders.org and you click the ministers page, you can see we've created a ministers manifesto, which is which every line has been prayed over and crafted in a way to help ministers really understand what they've been called to do, why they've been called to do it. But one of the lines that we had on there is this, we're not content with maintaining embers. I'm lighting hearts on fire.
Tom:And so I I wanna hear from you guys. What does it look like for a minister to, go from that place of fire that operate from the fumes of burnout? Right? So contrasting the two, I mean, there's there's fire involved, but one, there's a fire. The other is fumes of burnout.
Tom:What does that look like, and how do you contrast the two?
Wendall:I I I think we we have to do a good inward look to see when we have transitioned from being a voice for the father to being an echo of others. And we're we're just echoing what others are saying and not getting a word from the Lord. That's an indicator that that we're heading toward this this whole line of stress.
Rick:I I think one of the things for me, when I when I surrender the ministry and you get started, there was a love. There was a passion. You you got up every morning going, I can't wait to do get to do what I do. I get to share the gospel. I get to meet people.
Rick:I get to, build relationships. You get to see people wanting Christ. And I think if you're not careful before long, it's kinda like what I said, the the love all of a sudden begins to this week because of the tyranny of the urgent. You feel like I you've gotta get this done. I gotta be this.
Rick:You feel like you gotta be all things to all people. And so, if you're not careful, all of a sudden, it's no longer a love. It it becomes more of a job and a duty. And I think that's when you get in trouble Mhmm. Is when you in a sense, you lose that first love.
Rick:I I do this because I love Christ. I don't do this because I have to. I don't do this because it's my paycheck. It's a calling. And and when you lose sight of that calling, then, again, I think you're setting yourself up, for trouble.
Rick:And, when you get to the point you go you know, you all of us have heard through ministry, you know, how many people re you know, resigned on Monday morning. You know, got up on Monday morning and said, I'm done. I'm I'm I'm finished with all of this. And then you you of course, you don't. You go on.
Rick:But I think that's, again, is because before long, it's no longer the love and the passion. It becomes more of a duty and a job. And when that begins to happen, I think it's a telltale sign.
Tom:Mhmm.
Ray:Well, you said it. I'm not so sure that there aren't some that have decided to resign. Mhmm. Not everybody pulls themselves up on Monday morning again by their bootstraps and decides to lean in for one more week. Yeah.
Ray:Now there's a lot of warriors out there. They got mud on their face. Their hair is disheveled. I mean, they're sticking with it. There's certainly no guarantee of comfort in a calling.
Ray:Right? And if you look at the people who change the world and the God uses, they faced uncertainty and they they work through discomfort. And there's a lot of warriors out there that are making it happen. But there's times, like you said, you wanna give up on Monday morning. But what would you guys say?
Ray:What about the person that's out there that's listening right now? They're like, guys, I appreciate it. Man, I just don't know. I I I don't think I can go another day. I'm listening.
Ray:I'm on the edge. I'm tired. I'm discouraged. I'm really not sure I can keep going for my mental health, for the health of my family, for the health of the ministry. What would you say to that person?
Ray:You're having a cup of coffee. They look at your eyes. What would you say to them?
Rick:I think it's iron not ironic because I think we all see it. This this past week, I sat with a young man in ministry, and those were the very words. And, you know, first of all, I think you're not going to, you're I think at that moment, probably what you say is not as important as what you
Wendall:do. Mhmm.
Rick:Because I looked at him, and I said, look. We're not gonna solve this because you didn't get here overnight, and it's gonna take some time. But I tell you what I will do. I will hold the rope for you. I will be there for you.
Rick:We'll walk this together. And so, you know, we prayed together. We talked about some things that he was dealing with. A couple of days later, he phones me, and he goes, man, I gotta tell you what's happened. And so he began to kinda walk through what was happening.
Rick:He's on staff at a church, and, you know, it was kind of a not a good situation between him and his pastor. And, you know, as we just continue to walk through it, though, I one of things I told him, I said, listen. You you need to go in, and you need to sit down, and you need to share your heart, one, with your pastor. Let him hear your heart. Don't go in angry.
Rick:Don't go in mad, but share your heart. And, and he did. And, it started out not good, but by the time it ended, both parties, I think, begin to see each other and understand each other better. So he then he called me again, yesterday, and, again, things were better. But I think what happened was I tied a rope around and said, listen.
Rick:I'm here. I don't care if it's 03:00 in the morning. You can call me. You know? And I think that's one of the key things because I you know, you're sitting over a cup of coffee.
Rick:You can you can share your heart. You can share what you've experienced, what you've done. But if you walk away from that and you haven't tied yourself to that guy and said, I'm here for you. I will be here for you, then he's gonna walk away feeling lonely again. So I think one of the most important things that we can do, and I would say as far as me sitting down with a pastor going through something like this, is I will walk with you through this.
Rick:I'm not gonna leave you alone. I'm not gonna abandon you. And I think it gives him hope because it's gonna be a process of walking through this, I think, with any pastor.
Tom:Mhmm. It's really good. What about for you, Wendell? What are your thoughts on that? That's really good.
Wendall:Yeah. I think if we're not careful, we can emotionally deconstruct. And we're not deconstructing from the faith intentionally, but I keep going back to the spiritual disciplines. We are deconstructing. We are becoming distant from that which we claim to be the most important thing in our life.
Wendall:So when we have people around us, like Rick has talked about, maybe we take a break. There there are a lot of opportunities today, right, that people like yourself could help someone take a break and and chill and and be away for a little bit and kind of reinstill in them this first love. It's this leaky mess called stress is very sneaky, and it I I think it's an an an enemy assault on us that only comes back by restoring unto us the joy of our salvation. And the only way that happens is by doing loving things. And then perhaps, Rick, we'll get to a point that we don't dread Wednesday nights.
Wendall:Yeah. Or we don't dread going to the hospital or whatever it is, but we have the joy of our salvation or the joy of our vocation, the joy of our calling restored to us. Yeah. Yeah.
Tom:Good work. Really good. You know? And I think one of the things that I take away from what both of you are saying is this, you're not gonna get through this alone. You're
Wendall:not. Like Yeah.
Tom:It's it's not a solo project. It was never meant to be. And as ministers, that's what we tend to make it. Hey. I'm the only one.
Tom:I'm the lone ranger, and it's not a lone ranger deal. I mean, you've gotta surround yourself with people, and that's why we're so passionate about, at Edify Leaders, doing that very thing, coming alongside ministers, being that rope that says 02:00, 03:00, five in the morning, Saturday. It doesn't matter. We're here ready to come alongside you. And I think it's important for those that are on the other end listening as pastors just to reach out.
Tom:There are people that are there. Don't buy into the lie of the enemy that says, you've gotta do this on your own. You've gotta figure it out. You're by yourself. Don't buy into that lie.
Tom:That's the lie from the enemy to keep you isolated and eventually take you out. So before that happens, reach out. We're here at Edify Leaders. That's that's who this podcast is by. So Wedding in Ministry is brought to you by Edify Leaders, and that's what we wanna do is provide a donor funded coaching to pastors and ministry leaders to help you navigate life and ministry and encourage you and strengthen you in this calling and in this walk with the Lord.
Tom:So please reach out, listen to these seasoned pastors and ministers, and hear our hearts today as we're saying, hey. We're in your corner. We're fighting for you. We want God's best in your life. So, hey, we're we're running out of time here.
Tom:But, Ray, is there any other thoughts that that you have as we close out the show today just to wrap things up?
Ray:There's just a couple of things. One is I'm sitting here listening to you, Tom, and it's I'm just so proud to be associated with an organization that, is behind these frontline warriors. And if you're a pastor out there or a minister, there's no reason for you not to get the the, encouragement that you need. We don't want we don't just want you healthy. We want you strong.
Tom:Yeah.
Ray:We want you strong. And the second thing is it makes me so grateful. It makes me so grateful because, there are a group of businessmen and other people. I even know widows that are supporting this ministry And they're giving sometimes a $100 a month. Some people are giving a whole, whole lot more.
Ray:But the the need is larger than the funds that are available. And so we're grateful for anyone who comes alongside edify leaders and provides this level of coaching. Guys like Rick, guys like Wendell, doctor Jordan, and others provides this level of experience and coaching, out of the goodness of their heart. And then what what's the result? Pastors, ministers, they're able to receive this level of of input without cost Mhmm.
Ray:To them and or their their ministry or their churches. To learn more about the work of edify leaders, we just ask you to go and check us out at edifyleaders.org. We're always happy for you to come along for the ride. Catch our podcast at all the podcast outlets. Until next time, just keep winning in ministry.
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