Why Nice Wins (with Karen Peek, Detroit's Muni Golf Boss)

Karen Peek's first golf memory isn't a great shot. It's her mom and aunt on the lesson tee at Rackham, laughing to tears and hitting it terribly.

In this episode of The Bag Drop: Untold Stories in Golf, host Matt Considine and co-host Dr. Kevin Moore (a.k.a. "The Professor") sit down with

Karen Peek (Director of Golf Operations for Golf Detroit and an LPGA teaching professional) to talk about growing up on Detroit's municipal courses, chasing the LPGA Tour through four Q-Schools, and why being genuinely glad to see people is the best business decision a golf course can make.

The conversation dives into:

• Learning the game from Ben Davis at Rackham and Chris Williams at Palmer Park, the only two Black members of the Michigan PGA section at the time
• Four tries at the LPGA Tour, never once feeling comfortable at Q-School, and a putting saga that runs from hypnosis to a new Scotty Cameron ordered two weeks ago
• Why teaching is a skill, not telling people how you do it, and why the boyfriend lesson ends the golf before it ends the relationship
• The 150-yard markers at Chandler Park and why she isn't getting drunk on golf's boom
• "Hey dude, what's up?", the private-club pro shop that never said hello, and why she can charge more because her courses are nicer
• Ben Davis's legacy: humble, fierce, and always moving golfers off the range and onto the course

Connect with our guest

🏌️‍♀️ Karen Peek — Golf Detroit: https://golfdetroit.org — 📘 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/GolfDetroit/ — 💼 https://www.linkedin.com/in/karen-peek-6a649712/

Join the NewClub community

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Chapters

00:00 Cold open: when your boyfriend is your golf teacher

00:45 Welcome, and a bruised fall for Guardians and Bulldogs fans

03:12 Best fall format: East Lothian rules vs. Steel vs. Rubber

05:05 The team-event climax, plus First Tee Cleveland and Akron

06:20 Meet Karen Peek of Golf Detroit

07:56 The Professor's teaching: 20 minutes outside, less cortisol

09:58 Erin Hills: the glaciers did the heavy lifting

12:10 Karen joins: baseball first, and nothing for State

15:18 A Cleveland-fan dad and a Tigers-fan daughter

19:35 Mom's lessons with Ben Davis: so happy, so awful

22:12 Free Press summer golf school: 400 kids, no golf balls

23:39 Biking to Palmer Park and learning from Chris Williams

25:07 Losing her dad at 14, and the comfort of the individual game

27:51 Par was the standard, practice was the answer

31:37 Four tries at the LPGA Tour, and advice from people who haven't been there

36:43 Q-School: prepared until she got there

38:45 Hypnosis, acupuncture, and a putter over the knee

42:53 Lemons into lemonade: joining the LPGA to teach

44:50 Teaching is a skill, not telling people how you do it

48:16 Six-foot-four students and "please don't apologize"

52:41 What Carol Mann taught her: people need to know you care

56:28 Horrific lessons and the boyfriend at the range

59:35 Delivery over knowledge: listen first

1:03:13 Get them on the course, the sooner the better

1:04:14 Nobody knows what 300 yards looks like (hit one more club)

1:08:49 The 150-yard markers at Chandler Park

1:11:23 Don't get drunk on the boom

1:13:19 Building comfort: staff who look like your golfers

1:15:26 "Hey dude, what's up?"

1:17:36 The private-club pro shop that said nothing

1:19:23 "I can charge more because I'm nicer"

1:22:55 Ben Davis: humble, fierce, always smiling

1:26:26 Thanks, and the outro with Erin Hills

What is NewClub?

A golf club without the real estate. One membership, a rotation of great courses, tee times, competitions, trips already on the calendar, and people who love the game the way you do. We play as visitors of the clubs and courses that host us, and those relationships are the heart of what we do.

What is The Bag Drop?

Deeply researched audio documentaries telling the stories behind golf's greatest clubs, plus weekly conversations with the characters and communities shaping golf today. Hosted by NewClub founder Matt Considine and The Professor, Dr. Kevin Moore.

Creators and Guests

Host

Matt Considine

Founder of NewClub and our resident feel player. Matt’s junior golf career led him to the University of Akron where he met our co-host. During his junior year, Matt Studied abroad in Ireland and discovered golf societies. Subsequent trips to Scotland fed his passion for the history, ideals, and culture of accessible, affordable, and sustainable golf, a concept he would later bring to the U.S. with NewClub. Known for his interviewing style, quick wit, and compelling storytelling, Matt brings thoughtful, reflective conversations to The Bag Drop. His professional journey before NewClub included multiple leadership positions in growth-stage startups, where he managed teams responsible for more than $250 million in revenue. Matt actively gives back to the game as a Board Member of the First Tee of Akron and past chair of the Evans Scholar Foundation. Proudly based in his hometown of Akron, Ohio, Matt finds inspiration in family life with his wife, their three children, and their golf dog, Gypsy.

Host

The Professor

NewClub's Chief Ambassador and every golf sicko's favorite educator. Kevin is a thoughtful and deeply curious host. His studied, constructivist approach adds intellectual enrichment and balance to the show. As a professor of Math Education at the University of Georgia, Kevin's background in applied mathematics and cognitive psychology uniquely informs his insights on golf strategy and performance. Originally from Ohio, Kevin was a Division I collegiate golfer at the University of Akron, where his passion for understanding mathematical thinking began. After earning his doctorate from Arizona State University, he combined his analytical expertise with his love for golf by co-founding Golf Blueprint, an organization aimed at helping golfers optimize their games through data-driven strategies. Kevin enjoys balancing deep philosophical discussions with simple pleasures, such as indulging his sweet tooth, cheering on college football, and spending relaxed evenings with his friends, his wife, and their beloved dog, Nole.

What is The Bag Drop: Untold Stories in Golf?

Deeply researched audio documentaries that tell the definitive stories behind golf's greatest clubs + weekly conversations with the characters and communities shaping golf today.

Karen Peek (00:00)
for a student and trust me, I have seen a lot of horrific lessons. And and that bothers me because it doesn't have to be that way. You know, people should be more discerning about who they choose. PGA or LPGA, we need to do more letting people within various markets know where these teachers are.

someone new coming into the game, if they go to the driving range with their boyfriend, it's it's pretty much over. interest probably

Matt Considine (00:29)
The relationship or the golf game? Which one? Both?

Karen Peek (00:32)
either. I think the relationship has a better chance than the golf game.

Matt Considine (00:45)
Welcome to the Bag Drop, Untold Stories in Golf. I'm your host, Matt Considine here with our co-host, the Professor Slantcha Professor. Good morning.

The Professor (00:54)
we're bruised. We're battered. It has not been a good run in sports in the last couple weeks.

Matt Considine (00:59)
Lot of upsets out there this fall. Who

who are you bemoaning this morning?

The Professor (01:04)
Auburn Tigers, whenever this releases, maybe it was a couple weeks earlier, took down my Georgia Bulldogs at a game. We were at Guardians, you know, up two one. Like, let's get back to World Series. Maybe we're the lowest payroll in baseball, you know, go win the World Series and just prove everyone wrong. They're out of it. You know, how how state loses QB number one for a while. I don't know. There's some other things out there too on the sports room. We're just

Matt Considine (01:25)
Yeah, boy,

The Professor (01:26)
we're hurt.

Matt Considine (01:27)
we gotta we gotta pick you up. I I we got a lot of Chicago listeners. I need to make an apology. I was maybe bordering gloating over the victory from the White Sox with my guardians, and they they came back. They they left they left on vacation and then they came back apparently.

The Professor (01:38)
Wait, there's actually White Sox fans in Chicago? they they they only come out once ever

Matt Considine (01:45)
but I was gloating. They threw everything they had at us, including the kitchen sink.

For three straight games and then we came back because they just didn't have, the rested arms. They didn't have anything left. That is exactly what the Tampa Bay r rays did to us. Same deal, man. The Guardians just ran out of arm, ran out of everything. We just didn't have it. Unfortunate.

The Professor (02:09)
Yeah, so we get what, a Tampa Bay, Milwaukee, yeah, World Series. Who would've predicted that?

Matt Considine (02:13)
Yes. Sh shout

shout out to loyal listener of this podcast, New Clubs, account manager, Shalina Rice and her husband Kirk. there's g I have to wear a certain garb now on an upcoming episode that we had a friendly wager around who was gonna make it to the World Series. And then it was gonna be double or nothing if we played each other. But I'm definitely going with the brew crew anyways. I she she phrased it as it'd be a penalty for me having to wear

the brewers gear on this show, but I I'm excited. I I I actually want them to to take it down. That the they've been a long time. Long time coming for them too.

The Professor (02:48)
Yeah, that they got some of the best old school logos too. And I gotta ask about Chicago. Do Chicago fans also then switch their fandom to Milwaukee since it's right up the road? Is that how you know it's Cubs or White Sox? It's sorta

Matt Considine (02:56)
I it's it's basically a suburb. It's basically a suburb.

The Professor (02:59)
we just choose whoever's, out in front. They're like the the pseudo Yankees Cowboys fans.

Matt Considine (03:04)
Well,

mo you gotta remember, Professor, most of Chicago isn't from Chicago. They're probably from Milwaukee. They're probably from Iowa, Michigan,

The Professor (03:11)
Ha ha ha.

Matt Considine (03:12)
Ohio. So that's that's usually how it goes. Hey, I had a question for you. Best fall golf format. What is it? If you're going out with a group, it's kinda

The Professor (03:21)
On the s

Matt Considine (03:22)
it's it's it's not silly season, but it's when you get this fall weather, maybe leaves are on the ground. People I feel like are more open to like a team thing.

What what's the best?

The Professor (03:33)
I I think you gotta you can play this in any format, East Lothian rules you gotta play during fall ball, right? Where if it's a lost ball, just drop on the edge of the fairway about where you thought the distance you thought it was at, and then you can only have the hole, right? You can't win the hole, but you can have it from there. It's a one shot penalty with that drop. So rather than stroking distance or whatever, you gotta do that with the leaves on the ground and so you're you're not you're not you know, slowing up play and that sort of stuff.

Matt Considine (03:58)
Well, that that's a good one. Cause I was definitely gonna say match play and and we had this is New Club Northeast Ohio. We had a steel versus rubber. So kind of a an

The Professor (04:07)
Whoa. Tell me about this.

Matt Considine (04:09)
an homage to our our roots and of industry here in in the Rust Belt. But steel being Cleveland, up on the lake, and then rubber being Akron south of I eighty is where we kind of divided the line. So anybody north of I eighty played for steel, everyone south of it plays rubber, and man.

We had a blast. And I just rem it reminded me of, when you put something and I don't know why people aren't more open to like team matches in the during the season, but it it was about getting your point. You know, we played two matches, one one alt shot, one four four ball. And go get your point, you know, it wasn't about what shot. I mean, some of the best matches were the guys that were playing the worst. And

The Professor (04:51)
Mm-hmm.

Matt Considine (04:52)
And they were out there having a blast competing. but yeah, I just wanted to it it always feels like fall can be a good match play season. You know, get get something on the books while while we still can get out there and go go play a fun match.

The Professor (05:05)
Yeah, I think you to your point about the team stuff too. I

To me in golf, and I I think I learned a lot of this through the the Scottish Club aspects and participating over there, is there much better feeling than coming in after a team event? let's say you have four foursomes out and it's best ball, better like foursomes, and you come in afterwards and it's just like, all right, who's got the points? Which team won? You know, you got maybe twenty four people in there, just waiting for the results to be read off. to I I just I think there's no better feeling than than that climax.

Matt Considine (05:31)
Yeah.

You nailed it, the belonging, that sense of camaraderie. It's real, you know, when it comes to those matches. we also raised money doing it for our local first T chapters, which was a cool wrinkle.

The Professor (05:45)
fantastic.

Matt Considine (05:46)
So first T Cleveland, first T Akron, everybody you know was into it for that reason as well. You're playing for a few dollars to go to the kids in the programs that they run there, which is which is so cool.

Today's guest is a good one, Professor. I I think I mentioned this to you

The Professor (06:02)
Good good land.

Matt Considine (06:04)
off of some of my my travels up north to that that state. apologies to our our Ohio State fans today. I'm just gonna say Michigan, okay? It's okay, guys. We can say it. Great golf state.

The Professor (06:14)
I mean great great golf state, arguably one of the best

golf states in the country. I th I I think that's unquestionable.

Matt Considine (06:20)
Well, with with new club going to Detroit, I've been spending some time up there. And Karen Peak, I got to have lunch with. So Karen's coming on the show today. she's the director of golf operations for golf Detroit. that's overseeing Rackham, Chandler Park, and Rouge Park. she's an LPJ professional, she's a former mini tour player, a native Detroiter, grew up on these courses as well, in addition to some some others. So she's got just so much experience.

throughout the game, so much connection to to Detroit. I sat down with her for lunch and and just one story after the other, I feel like I wouldn't let her out of there. And eventually she had to get back to work. And I said, well, I do host a podcast. So if you'll come on and chat with me, we we would love to have you. She's a player, she's a teacher, an operator, and and someone who just, you know, knows the these places and and the people that play there for for a long time. So

I'm I'm super excited to introduce Karen to our our listeners here today.

The Professor (07:19)
Yeah, one of the I think things I'm more as we wind down on the year, try to be thankful about things. I'm thankful for this podcast because some of the aspirational people it's brought me across that I would have never came across without it. And this is definitely one of those cases where it's someone that really embodies a lot of what new club's trying to accomplish and, you know, gives kind of gives a guiding light about how you can accomplish some difficult things in the game of golf. especially around the diversification and municipal aspect of the game.

Matt Considine (07:44)
That's right. And like as I said, she she learned the game, but she taught the game and she's taught a lot of people the game. So speaking of teaching, professor, we have traditions. What do you got for us, teach?

The Professor (07:56)
Yeah, you're you're always on the, golf is healthy for the soul and for the spirit and the body, right? get out there, walk those four three and a half hour rounds. and healthy for you, right? now if you're not on the course, let's say you're not playing golf, how much on average do you spend outside in the day? I know you're you're kind of an outside guy.

Matt Considine (08:12)
buddy.

The Professor (08:12)
What do you

Matt Considine (08:14)
You know, they if this isn't any indication, last night my wife tells me, you know, we were getting the kids ready for bed, and she says, you know, all the toys are still outside and you got frost coming and you don't want whatever is out there. And I I actually said to her, is like, you know, I don't think I've been outside today. I'll go clean up. So in the dark, I'm clean up the toys.

But I wasn't outside yesterday, other than taking the kids to school, but that doesn't count. You're just walking through a parking lot. not enough is the answer. I was better

The Professor (08:42)
Yeah.

Matt Considine (08:43)
when I lived in the city, because I would go on on more regular walks, but everyone drives here, so so not enough.

The Professor (08:49)
Yeah, so very interesting study that came out in the last, I think, five years or so. timely with this episode, this is actually out of the University of Michigan and a and a faculty member researcher up there that just studied, I think, 36 individuals. And if they spent just 20 to 30 minutes outside sitting, walking,

Didn't matter what they did, just spend it outside. That dropped cortisol levels significantly. Much more than watching TV inside, reading a book inside, any other inside activities. Just spending that little bit of work outside, no matter what you're doing, drops cortisol levels. so

to your you beat this drum all the time and and and we all do within new club, and all going all the way back to Dr. McKenzie, hey, spending outside, you know, is healthy for you and do that on a golf course. so there's actually some research back in that relative to just cortisol levels.

Matt Considine (09:41)
Boy. And one thing I've I I've reached out. That's it's such a good one today, because I have some mentors and and advisors and people I've been reaching out to, just really successful people. And I I actually have pinpoint one thing all of them do, and it's that they make time to be outside.

The Professor (09:57)
Mm.

Matt Considine (09:58)
it that just truly like I think they're, you know, you're busy people, the cortisol levels, as you said, can be high when you're trying to get things done all day.

But they'd all make time for hiking, running, just walks. I I that's a good one today. Thank you, Professor. well, a good place to head outside. I got a real good place to share with you today because we have a new partner of The Bag Drop podcast, a supporter of our long form series coming out on the great clubs. And this episode is brought to you by our friends at Erin Hills Professor

You know what we like to talk about on this show, building great golf courses. Well, the course at Erin Hills yes, it was built by some talented architects, but The glaciers did most of that heavy lifting 10,000 years ago. those architects are Dr. Michael Hurdson, Dana Fry, Ron Witten. They barely had to move much dirt.

What they found amongst all those kettle moraines was some seriously good golf. And of course, strong enough to host Wisconsin's first US Open back in 2017, the US Women's Open this past year in 2025. And they're just getting started on the championship train. By 2039, Erin Hills will have hosted 10, yes, double digits, 10 USGA championships in 20 years. and unlike most of these places.

That are great tests in the game of golf. You can play it. And it's open to visitors. it sells out quickly. You do have to get your reservation, get online at erinhills.com It's a walking only golf course. They have an unbelievable caddy program. You can stay in the cottages. I used to do every closing weekend at Erin Hills, and I'd stay in the colleges, and it was my favorite of the year. he got the little lights on the drumbling course.

put lights out after dinner and you can settle whatever wagers you need to over in the caddy barn with all my favorite bar games. The season is winding down in Wisconsin, but now is definitely the time to plan your next trip. Go to Erinhills.com and when you're booking, let know that Matt and the professor sent you. All right, professor. Should we get on to the show?

The Professor (12:04)
Let's do it.

Matt Considine (12:10)
Karen Peake, welcome to The Bag Drop.

Karen Peek (12:12)
Thanks, Matt. It's wonderful to be here. Appreciate the opportunity. And I I have to tell ya, we were talking about baseball, which is my favorite sport. don't tell anyone. baseball,

baseball, golf. But I love baseball and one of the nice things about seeing these teams compete here in the in the division championship is do you have

You have players I I never saw. I didn't know who they were. And, you know, there's some great players. And you know, we we you know, we don't get a chance. The Tigers don't get a chance to play them that often. But, you know, now I I I feel really good about the World Series. I'm looking forward to it. I'm glad it's, you know, smaller and mid market teams and

d to be very honest with you, it was nice seeing all those people in Tampa Bay last night because you know they they you know, we give those fans a hard time because most of the time they don't show up. But

Matt Considine (13:07)
Yeah.

The Professor (13:06)
Ha ha.

Karen Peek (13:07)
you know, they were they were there last night, full throated and it was nice to see. and, you know, being compassionate, I do feel somewhat badly for you, but not that much.

Matt Considine (13:19)
Y y y this is what happens, right? Your division rival, if you're knocked out or not in the race, you gotta root for your division rival, right? You have to.

Karen Peek (13:28)
Well, that's what everybody says, but I I guess I'm a little bit of an outlier because you know, I I'm I'm a Michigan Wolverine and if you ask me, you know, what I think about state, I think nothing about state.

Matt Considine (13:42)
Ha ha

Karen Peek (13:43)
And

and you know when they're playing someone else, do I want them to win? No. Why would why would I want that? So yeah, that's that's me. I'm kind of singularly focused on my guys.

Matt Considine (13:57)
I think I it

The Professor (13:57)
Karen, I gotta I gotta

add to that real quick. I moved down here to the southeast and it was one of one of the things that just struck me, the SEC fandom where they actually root for each other or like are okay. Like I've been around Alabama and Auburn fans that are okay with Alabama or Auburn winning. And I'm just like, as a buck guy, I would never say that about men like I don't care. Let them lose. I just I don't want them to win a national championship ever. I don't want them to be a big ten championship ever. It it's just it it's

Yeah, a little bit different down here, I guess.

Karen Peek (14:27)
I guess I the the people in the South are known for their hospitality, so maybe maybe that's

The Professor (14:32)
Yeah.

Karen Peek (14:32)
that's it. I'm a midwesterner through and through and you know, I I I don't like Michigan State. I I don't like Ohio State and that's never gonna change.

The Professor (14:44)
Yeah, I said we'll we'll we'll mow your yard, but we won't work for your team. Right. That's what we'll do on the mid in the mid west.

Matt Considine (14:50)
That's that sounds accurate. Let's go back to baseball for a second, Karen. I I find there's a a strong overlap in like baseball fans and golf golfers. What what do you think that is? You said it was your your your favorite sport. What what is it about baseball that that you you you get into? That or that is there something from your golf experiences that you see in baseball or what what what is it?

Karen Peek (15:18)
I think for the most part it's it's competition. You know, I'm I'm a very competitive person and I always have been. my dad actually introduced me to baseball when I was, you know, relatively young, four or five years old. And this part of the story is a little unnerving because my dad was a Cleveland Indian fan, and

The Professor (15:40)
Mm.

Karen Peek (15:41)
he yeah

Matt Considine (15:41)
Smart man. Smart man. Good good teams then too.

Karen Peek (15:44)
Yeah, and and and I was a a daddy's girl, but not that. I I I couldn't do that. You know. We'd go to you know, we'd go to Tiger Stadium and you know, I was a Tiger fan. It it it just felt like that's that's what I had to be, you know. I was

The Professor (16:01)
Mm-hmm.

Karen Peek (16:02)
a Tiger fan. And, you know, we even traveled to Cleveland a lot and we saw a lot of a lot of games in that

old dank stadium municipal municipal stadium yes I remember it as a as a kid

The Professor (16:12)
Ugh that old and dank is exactly what it was. Yep. Nothing glorious.

Matt Considine (16:13)
Municipal, yeah. Municipal stadium.

Karen Peek (16:20)
and you know I mean I love the competition. I I I love I love the fact that the game isn't over until it's over.

that that

Matt Considine (16:30)
Mm, yeah.

Karen Peek (16:31)
aspect, you you you really you get the full in the nine innings, if it's tied, you keep going. And and you play until someone wins. Yeah. And I don't know if

I necessarily saw a connection and my love for baseball and then, developing a love for golf later on, you know, in life. But I do I l I love to watch baseball and I love to play golf when I can. I don't play that much anymore, but when I can, I enjoy it.

Matt Considine (17:02)
Yeah, I I I a a playoff baseball is another level too, right? Playoff baseball

Karen Peek (17:05)
Yeah.

Matt Considine (17:06)
just just jumps the adrenaline and and every pitch matters. Every there's a lot of strategy. But I I think for me, I had a very short-lived baseball career, you know, the l little league and all that. But as I became a fan of baseball later in life, it reminded me of the psychological challenge, the mental game of golf is so difficult. When I started to talk to people who

really, watch baseball and study and keep the stats. They they're they talk about in a way that I knew professional golf or high level golf to be, which is, you know, y y y you're you're battling yourself mentally of of staying in the moment and trying to, you know, take in all the variables but still remain, you know, not overthink and remain athletic. And so I think hitter, pitcher, you know, are the two most common, but I almost look at them when I'm watching those games.

this fall and thinking, man, this is like what it's like to, have a nervy chip where you have to get up and down to make the cut or this y s things like that for is is why I think I've started to enjoy the the baseball games a little more.

The Professor (18:11)
Yeah, wonder how much of it is like related to there's so many lulls in baseball. I always love baseball as a fan at the stadium because it's not something you have to be engaged with 24-7 when you're on site, right? A basketball game, every dribble, you're like locked in. But baseball, you can just start talking to your friends that are there. And then you're just waiting for the sound of the bat. So you have all these lulls almost like walking between shots, and then these heightened moments that just occur at a snap of a bat.

if you're a left fielder, you're just kinda out there. what ninety-five percent of your day is just staring at the grass and waiting for something. And so you're in you're

Matt Considine (18:45)
Picking dandelions.

The Professor (18:46)
in your head and all of a sudden, the ball's coming your way and you this really quick heightened thing, just like a golf shot, right? For those seven seconds, you have to be fully engaged and now you're back to, waiting a several minutes before anything important happens.

Karen Peek (18:58)
Yeah, that's that's interesting, Now baseball is a metaphor for golf, maybe.

The Professor (19:03)
Yeah,

Matt Considine (19:03)
Yeah,

maybe, maybe.

The Professor (19:04)
yeah.

Matt Considine (19:05)
Well, that's it's 20 minutes into this. Let's talk more golf. I your father got you into baseball, he said. that's talk. I don't usually start with, you know, the the linear tell us about your your story, Karen. I we we typically jump around, but with you it family seemed to be a a a portion of that, you know, when tell us about

I being introduced to the game of golf. Who did you talk golf with and was it a part of your family or did you bring the game to your family?

Karen Peek (19:35)
No, I think really I brought it into my family. no one played. I have a brother who's five years younger than me and not particularly athletic when you know, when he was a kid.

Which made it a little easier for me to get closer to my dad because my my brother, I th w we the Thanksgiving talk used to be that, you know, Mark learned to ride a bike w when he was ten years old. That's not true, but i you know, the the the reality is that was always a tease. He just wasn't too athletic and I mean I I I would have, you know, done some bungee jumping if I thought that

my dad would enjoy it. But at any rate, I I became interested in golf really just by watching it. I I you know, I've I've told you guys that, you know, I'm somewhat I've always been athletic and interested in sports. So, you know, I played some softball and I watched golf on television. And, you know, it happened to be at a time when

Arnold Palmer was at really the top of his game. And I was just so impressed with his charisma, with his connection with the the the people that were you know at the event. he was he seemed so authentic and real and and and strong and

I I just thought, wow, that that looks like fun. Well, as it happened, my mom started taking golf lessons. I think it was, you know, something to do before lunch in cocktails. So she and my aunt went to Rackham and they were taking lessons from Ben Davis, who I'm sure that you all have heard of. I mean he's a legend here.

And one day I actually went with them and I sat on a picnic table in the lesson area at Rackham and I watched them. And there were two things that I noticed, two really important things. First of all, they seemed so happy, so engaged, they laughed.

they laughed almost to tears. They were having such a good time. And the second thing that I noticed is they were awful based on you what I'd

Matt Considine (22:01)
Ha ha ha.

Karen Peek (22:02)
seen on television. And I thought, wow, that's interesting that you can enjoy something so much and be so bad at it.

Matt Considine (22:12)
Yeah.

Karen Peek (22:12)
Well, on the way back home, I was carrying my mother's clubs and I said to her

mom, I think I could play this game. And she said, Well, why don't you try it? And frankly, that was the beginning. I ended up going to starting into the game like so many other people really from my era, you know, we took lessons, group lessons, from

A number of local pros that came to the municipal courses and they called it the free press summer golf school and I don't know, maybe five or six lessons and we never hit a golf ball during the lessons. All we did was swing.

Matt Considine (22:57)
Really?

Karen Peek (22:59)
All we did was, start in a static position and on a on a white dot that they made on the grass, there were probably three to four hundred kids out there and maybe a half a dozen pros that would walk down these you know s lines and say, back on one and down on two. That was the beginning of golf for me. And

I should mention that a very dear friend, my next door neighbor, came to these lessons with me and I loved it. She didn't. That was kind of the end of our friendship, to be very honest with you.

Matt Considine (23:38)
Ha ha.

Karen Peek (23:39)
Because from that point, we lived maybe a mile from Palmer Park Golf Course.

I used to get on my bike after school, throw my clubs over my shoulders and bike up to the course and play. And I would play until dark. And took lessons from Chris Williams. Chris, very interesting man who I don't think gets enough recognition and acknowledgement for his accomplishments in the game because he also was a member of the

Michigan section of the PGA. And he and Ben Davis were the only two black members of the of the PGA.

And I think when I look back at it, I can really, really fully appreciate their journey and and what they accomplished. It wasn't, you know, that strong at the time. You know, it was just golf and they were just good guys and they were teachers

The Professor (24:39)
Mm-hmm.

Karen Peek (24:40)
and, you know, they treated me well and I had tremendous respect for them.

So, that's how it got started is Palmer Park Pre Press Golf School and really realizing that I love this. So that came at a time when I, you know, wanted to put down some of the other things that, you know, I'd been involved in, like playing classical guitar, ballet. My mom liked that stuff, but

Matt Considine (25:07)
Yeah.

Karen Peek (25:07)
I didn't I didn't particularly like it. The guitar wasn't so bad. But

being able to get out and compete, compete against the course, compete against myself, i I think that was really important for me at that point in my life. Fourteen, fifteen years old. My dad died when I was fourteen. So he never had an opportunity to see me play, or even know that, you know, I would take up golfing. But

It it was it was important in my life at that point in time and I got a lot of comfort from golfing. And unlike a lot of people, I think I liked golf for the individual aspect of it as opposed to the team aspect where you're really relying on yourself, your ability, y your poise,

your ability to manage yourself on the golf course, those were things that appealed to me, appealed to my personality. So I I think that's why it you know it just was something that I loved. I I I loved from the moment I put a club in my hand. And you know, I still do.

Matt Considine (26:24)
Karen, that's that's beautiful. There's a element of it I I really resonates with. And it was your friend who you weren't friends anymore. She wasn't coming to the golf course with you. I think you answered a little bit of my question on i i i the individual piece of of golf. And you know, I that resonated with me because I had my closest friends. they also didn't take to golf. And

frankly it was some structural things like country clubs and there wasn't a a local Palmer park near us that we all could go to. There we did we there was some of that. But also, you know, team sports have kind of a built-in like pull you along with. Or my daughter's in dance now and so the same kind of thing. It's like even when she has a tough dance day, there's like the group of friends and it's a little social and it it keeps you sticking with it. But

Was was it instant for you? Like what or what what is it about you that golf just was going to be it? What was it the competitive drive that kept you coming back? Like for for you as that 15 year old getting on your bike and continuously going back to it, is is there something in there that would have kept your friend in? Or is it just the nature of golf? It's it's difficult and and

We're gonna see dropout rates. I think that's actually true today with the data. That the dropout rate is pretty high.

Karen Peek (27:51)
Yeah. I mean that's true. I don't know, you n you guys know what golf t does to you. I mean it just it just captures your your imagination, it becomes the most important thing to you, you know, you you you develop a schedule around that and you know, being a teenager, obviously high school, you know, big changes, you know, in your life,

learning to drive, you know, all of those things, but you know, kind of happening in the in the same time. But there was something about being out on the golf course and creating creating shots. And and and that's something actually I learned very early. I learned it from Chris. you know, it wasn't about just hitting the ball. Because I actually the first time I had a ball in front of me, I hit it. And I

hit it up in the air and I hit it well. So you know I I think I expected to do that based on you know the training you know based on what I'd done so being able to golf it just came very naturally for me and I I think

Because I felt that I was good good at it, I wanted to continue it and see, really where it would take me. But, you know, as an early teen playing the game, I played in local, you know, local competitions, junior events. you know, I had some success as well. I love to practice. I think, you know, that's a another

element of it because I really wanted to be good. I didn't you know just want to go out socially and and play with friends who maybe didn't have the skill set that I that I did. I and I believe me I did play with play socially but I just

I wanted to win. That was that was

The Professor (29:51)
Hm.

Matt Considine (29:52)
Ha.

Karen Peek (29:52)
so important to me is to be able to win. And it was never personal in terms of a a a competitor. It was the course. It was me. It was my goals. It was my standard. You know, it was if par was the standard for the game, then that's what I tried to shoot.

The Professor (30:16)
Yeah.

Karen Peek (30:16)
And if I didn't, then that w would result in more practice. You know, let let me spend some more time with it. So, you know, most of my high school spare time was spent playing golf, practicing golf, you know, taking golf lessons.

I and and yes, there were people who, told me, you have a chance, you have chance to be a a you know, a touring pro. That aspiration really didn't strike me until, you know, much later on, really after college.

I I just wanted to be I wanted to be a good competitor, a winner, but I didn't at that point in high school know that I wanted to be a professional.

The Professor (31:07)
Karen, it sounds like, gosh, th this is inspiring. it sounds like, you know, using that context that you just brought up that, you know, d those aspirations of being a professional weren't there, you know, that's a very outcome oriented goal. Like, I'm gonna be a professional golfer. You were very much more like, I wanna be my best today every time I go on that course. And if I didn't if I wasn't my best, I'm gonna practice even harder.

Because that's all I wanna do. I is that an accurate way to capture kind of your competitive spirit?

Karen Peek (31:37)
Yeah, it I I I I think so, Kevin, I really think that is I and and you know I can kind of put that in different terms because obviously as time went on, you know, I did, play many tours, I did try to make the LPGA tour on four four occasions. So I didn't achieve that dream. But

I worked to do it very, very hard, and I did have the opportunity. So, some people don't get the opportunity. But there is something that occurred to me actually very recently, and it wasn't one of those moments where I was saying, you know, if this had been different, then there would have been a different outcome. But you know, I I read something, don't take advice.

from people who haven't been where you want to go.

The Professor (32:35)
Mm-hmm.

Karen Peek (32:36)
And there's some of that involved in my story. You know, there's there's some of that because I didn't have, I had the support, you know, of my mom and and and you know and my family, but

what do they know about being a professional golfer, you

Matt Considine (32:57)
Yeah.

Karen Peek (32:58)
know, at the end of the day. They they they did it. So the discovery process was, you know, it was rather difficult. You know, having to hop in a car and drive to California and play mini tour for for money that would barely pay for the gas it cost me to drive out there. That was different.

And a lot of what, you know, young players are doing now to get on the tour, I mean it's completely different. I mean it's these programs and plans and development, I mean, you know, especially when you look at what the what the Asian women

The Professor (33:38)
Mm.

Karen Peek (33:38)
how they are, you know, supported in their countries, how they're trained.

that didn't exist even though I had access to high level professionals. I mean I've I've taken you know, lessons from Toskey and Ledbetter, you know, in in in my day and Pells, you know, when when when I couldn't put at all. So I've had lessons from some of the greatest teachers of all time. but that's different than really being taken under the wing.

and developed. And I think that could have made a difference. it could have. Now I don't say that with regret because I've always been pretty honest about, why I didn't make it to the tour. I wasn't good enough. I mean

The Professor (34:24)
Yeah.

Karen Peek (34:24)
that that's that's that's you know that's the that's the reason. And when I became aware of that

I still had the love for the game. And that's when I decided, let's turn this let's turn these limb limbs into lemonade because I want to be involved in the game in some way. So the best way to do that was to become a teacher. And, you know, I joined the LPGA in nineteen eighty three and

just change the trajectory of of what I wanted to do with my life. I still wanted to be involved in golf.

The Professor (35:03)
Was

that a

Matt Considine (35:03)
Karen.

The Professor (35:04)
Go ahead, Matt.

Matt Considine (35:05)
I I wanted to stay with competitive golf because the the professor and I have a lot of f good friends that have chased that dream, the same dream you had and and you know, lived life on the mini tours. And the word that we hear a lot is lonely. And I think there's a certain mentality of someone or

You you do have what that ever that is that I kind of notice in people of they're able to take that on. And and one of the things that it from your background of just like l you know, getting done with the round and just immediately going practicing, like that, that's kind of that competitive spirit I think it requires to to really be able to to focus and get through those those hardships. But when when we had lunch, you you told a great story about one of those four Q school.

performances and you can tell that one if you'd like, but also I I just gotta imagine I I've never experienced a Q school. that has to be a a hellish week. I I just can't imagine doing going through it four times, the pressure, the stress with your, you know, the thing that you set out to do right in front of you. it's been said it's for the the most

stress you'll experience in golf, maybe in sports, but I I want to know in those four appearances for yourself, did you ever feel comfortable? Did did they all kind of see feel the same? Like which of those weeks do you remember maybe most clearly and and how do they separate for you in your recall of them?

Karen Peek (36:43)
That's a that's a really a a great question and it makes me you know look back at how I felt and and believe it or not, as long ago as it was the last time I I tried for my card, no, I never felt comfortable. Yeah. I I I never ever felt comfortable. I felt prepared until I got there.

The Professor (37:06)
Mm-hmm.

Karen Peek (37:08)
And

then all you have to do is look around the range and watch everybody there doing what you think that you're doing is special. So, the the the internal conflict of am I really good enough? It definitely was very present in my mind. too present probably. and even if I didn't watch people, I still

question, you know, are you good enough? You know, have you have you done as much as you can? because sometimes, you know, the results will show you them. If you're competing in a tournament and you know you finish with three straight bogeys, you know, when you're one under par, you know that that kind of cuts in your confidence a little bit.

Matt Considine (38:00)
Sure does.

Karen Peek (38:01)
And

you know, the you know, in sports, you know s how some teams find a way to lose, you know, Washington commanders, you know, I mean it's like

The Professor (38:07)
Mm-hmm.

Karen Peek (38:10)
that's was kinda the the

Matt Considine (38:11)
Yeah.

Karen Peek (38:12)
definition of of my mini tour career. I found a lot of ways to lose, you know, w even when I was in contention, I found ways, you know, to lose. And I I of course

I did the hypnosis, I did acupuncture. I did

The Professor (38:30)
huh.

Karen Peek (38:31)
everything that was available to me at that time to try to get over that hump of don't let the round get away from you. You know, if you don't let the round get away from you. I'll tell you one of the most

Matt Considine (38:45)
D does does

acupuncture come before paying a bunch of money to be with Dave Pells or does it come after that? Which how bad does the putting have to get, Karen?

Karen Peek (38:53)
It was after. It wa

it was it was after and you've never seen me putt, so you know the

Matt Considine (39:00)
You haven't seen me. I'm going through some stuff this this year,

Karen. I I c this is hitting a chord.

Karen Peek (39:06)
my gosh, let me tell you something really, really hilarious. I think it might have been two weeks ago I played golf. just around with a couple people that work at the course. And I mean I was playing okay, but at this stage of life, I don't really have high expectations. I don't play very much. I mean I might. I'm probably have played golf six times this year, so that's not a lot. But

In the back of your mind, you're still thinking, I know how to do this. I've done this. I should still be able to do this. Well, I was hitting the ball pretty well, long story short. I put it for par on the first hole, bought a 10-footer, I made it. The second hole, I hit the green irregulation and three-putted.

the third I hit the green in regulation and three put it. The fourth

My temperament is fine. I I I'll say them. There's no no issues with my temperament, but I'm getting a little hot under the collar. So I just I you know, I just got to the point where I said, you know what? Maybe I'll get a new putter. Now that is like that's probably the

Matt Considine (40:22)
Mid round.

Karen Peek (40:23)
biggest waste of money that I could probably do. But I did it. I did it. I I didn't do anything

That I regretted on the golf course, but when I came in, I put my golf bag in the office, I took my putter, my old faithful Odyssey, and I put it over my knee, and then I said, No, don't do it. Don't, don't, don't, don't do it. And

Matt Considine (40:49)
You got to the brink.

Karen Peek (40:51)
I did it. I didn't break it, but I ordered a new Scotty Cameron, and I can't wait to try it out. Yeah.

Matt Considine (40:57)
That'll be the answer, Karen. It's all it's it's

definitely the arrow. I you gotta be.

Karen Peek (41:00)
It's it's not me.

The Professor (41:02)
You that first round out it's gonna be amazing. Th the first round's guaranteed you'll make everything and then from there we'll

Karen Peek (41:04)
Yeah, of course it is. Of course it is.

Matt Considine (41:09)
Yeah, it just an a a new look a new look could could help. Well what what part of your game, Karen, was when you were playing your best, what could you rely on the most? I think it sounds like you and I share that in common with the putter, but was there a part of your game that was the most reliable under tournament pressure?

Karen Peek (41:27)
normally I was a very good driver of the ball. certainly sufficient distance and accurate. you know, I I I used to tell my friends I could, you know, I can drive a golf ball through a keyhole. And and and I could for a long time. my my long game was pretty good. Fairway Woods were were were good.

Short game, not too bad, except for putting. Now I was never a great putter. that and and that is you know we all know that's that's where winning comes in is putting. I can hit a two-iron.

between two telephone poles that were 25 yards apart. But I could take a five-footer and make it look like a nightmare. And so I think yippie, I was probably yippie early, got past it, and then you know, settled into being a very mediocre putter at my best.

The Professor (42:32)
Karen,

So if we go back to the Q school situation, you talked about wanting to transition into you eventually transitioned into a teaching pro. Back at the Q when that decision was made, was that a difficult decision? did you wrestle with that and really have this internal struggle? Or was there just one morning you woke up and you just you're like, it's time.

Karen Peek (42:53)
No, I think it was more, just accepting the reality of it because I I knew what I'd put in, felt like it should have been enough, and then decided that no I can't keep chasing this. You know, I I wasn't you know, wasn't twenty two anymore and

might be a good idea to get a job. My mom also suggested that. So that she had that influence on me. She's like just like, okay, now what are we gonna do? And so I said, you know what, I I I really wanna stay in golf. I think I want to teach. I want to learn to teach. And

I will say that about myself. I didn't assume that I knew how to teach because I was

The Professor (43:37)
Mm.

Karen Peek (43:37)
a I was a you know a a good player, a decent player. so joining the LPGA was really the best thing that could happen to me because you know at that time in the organization the focus was truly teaching.

it wasn't golf course operations, you know, it

The Professor (43:57)
Mm-hmm.

Karen Peek (43:57)
wasn't you know it wasn't merchandising, it was teaching. And I got such an incredible education from the LPGA. And I will say this too, that's why, you know, even today I have to

Honestly say I am a little bit of a a snob when it comes to teaching. I am offended by people who play good golf and then offer their advice and services to their friends and family and playing buddies and so forth or or even accept money. I mean that to me is it's it's it's just unacceptable because teaching is a skill.

And teaching is not telling people how you do things.

The Professor (44:50)
Mm.

Karen Peek (44:50)
and that's that's that's very important, I think, for a student. It's about understanding how to communicate with them in a way that allows them to reach their potential. That potential's different with everybody. You know, somebody who's shooting a hundred, I mean, maybe

Maybe you can get them to a point where they're shooting 80. And I'll be honest, I think I've done that multiple times. But it didn't happen overnight. And it takes someone who has the commitment to really work and discipline themselves to the change that you're trying to make with them. And that takes understanding people, human nature, understanding the nature of learning. I learned those things.

from the LPGA over the years. I learned those things in in seminars. And that too you spend a lot of money on because they're not all happening, you know, down the block from you. You have to travel.

The Professor (45:55)
Mm, mm-hmm.

Karen Peek (45:57)
You know, you have to travel. And I did that. And again, I will say, you know, my mom was super supportive for me doing what I wanted to do in life.

And and that was her mantra. Get your education, do whatever you want. You can do anything you want to do. And and and I believed that. And at that point, you know, I decided that teaching was the best the best route for me.

The Professor (46:25)
You Karen, you're pulling on my heartstrings here as an educator and some of the decisions I made. there's obviously something there something in you, you know, something in your fabric that led you to teaching. Do you have any insights into what that was? Because you had a lot of I mean, it's very clear you could have accomplished anything you wanted to in life with who you are, the way you g you go about things, but you chose teaching for a reason. Why why teaching being that thing?

Karen Peek (46:52)
gosh, that's a that's tough. I will tell you that it it brought me a lot of joy. I will tell you that I learned as much as I taught. you know, I learned about people, what makes them tick, you know, kind of what buttons to push. I you know, would when you when you sit down and and and or or stand usually, which is the case, you're meeting a person for the first time. And

I wanna get to know the person. I wanna know what's important to them. I wanna know what they've done that may or may not be related to golf or or any other sport. You know, I've had people tell me, I'm a ballerina. My thought immediately is great, because you you understand balance, you know, you understand posture, you know, understand rhythm and movement, and you know, having

creating movement that's that's synchronized you you get that stuff and it's very important I for for me I enjoy I really do enjoy helping people helping people achieve their goals not telling them what it is you know not here's here's my golf swing let me show you this you know that only works with certain people

The Professor (48:15)
Mm, mm-hmm.

Karen Peek (48:16)
You

i and i as you well know, professor, that only works. Me showing you something is great if that's how you learn. But can you imagine, you know, a woman

Five five, a hundred and twenty pounds, giving a lesson to a guy who's six four and then standing there and hitting a golf shot and and this is going to be impressive? probably not. Probably not. So being able to judge those things, to me, it's also it's a challenge. It's a personal challenge for me to say, okay, I I need to get through to you. How do I do this? I've had people in lessons

Apologize to me when they don't hit a good shot after you know after some drills or whatever. And I'm just like, please don't do that. It's my responsibility to help you. It's not your responsibility to hit good shots. I need to help you get to the place where you can do that. And I and I believe that's the approach.

It especially women, there's definitely a a distinction between teaching women versus men. women most women will come, you know, heart in hand where most men internally believe they can do it anyway. They don't they don't doubt that they can do this. It's like just give me something to chew on here so I can get to that point where, you know, I'm not slicing it fifty yards to the right.

But women, on the other hand, they're a lot more introspective about it. You know, they're they're more concerned, how does this look? You know, or people are gonna be looking at me. And and I always love hearing that comment from a student. People are gonna be watching me, because I could take them from where we were on the lesson T, walk them over the tenth hole almost, and say, now look at this. Tell me when you see something that's wonderful.

The Professor (50:17)
Hmm.

Karen Peek (50:18)
Because

you think that the standard is much higher than it is. You think that everybody is getting on the T and cranking out a 250-yard drive right down the middle. The reality is that doesn't happen all that often at a golf course. The skill level is not as high as a lot of women project it to be.

And I think, if you've looked at the stats, that the average woman's score is not that, you know, much higher than the average guy's score. So it really becomes a matter of, you know, do you like this? Do you enjoy this? Is there something in this for you? And if you think there is, well, hey, let's get a little better, because if you're a little better, you're gonna enjoy it more.

The Professor (51:06)
Wow, so much to unpack there, Karen. like I said, I g I think I could have I think I can take a lot of that and just show you speaking to our future teachers. Just show that video and say, This is what makes a great teacher. the one thing I really want to pull out there is like

you learn through your students, right? You learn who they are and you adapt, you know, your abilities and what you do tailored to exactly them. And that's why I love teaching because I get to learn every day. You know, I get to learn about my students every single day. And that's something new and then motivating as an educator.

Matt Considine (51:40)
Karen, you you we we talked about that jump into coaching and we talked about your your coaches. So Chris Williams, Ben Davis, they had to have been some element of a role model. But you also talked about the distinction with men and women, which is really interesting to me. And I I'm just curious when you made the jump, you you become an LPGA teaching professional.

Were there because I'd imagine Ben and Chris, there was no ladies around to teach you at that time.

Karen Peek (52:18)
No.

Matt Considine (52:19)
But when you made the jump, were there female role models you had as teachers that that you kind of looked up to, learned from, modeled from? Or t tell me about that when when you made that jump. Were were did you have to rely on those early experiences more or or did you have

some people th that you learn from making that leap.

Karen Peek (52:41)
Well, I think one woman who who had a very positive impact on

on me as a person, as a teacher, and and to a certain extent a player was Carol Mann. I had an opportunity to go to one of her week long academies and I did that you know at the at a time when I was I was an LPGA member, I was I think a class A member at the time and and I thought, this would be great. you know, she's obviously an accomplished player, you know, so there

gonna be some things that I can learn but th the the the teaching part of it and and the the approach one thing I can tell you is a as a younger teacher I really never enjoyed group lessons. it it took me a while to to kind of build that into my teaching program and and that was primarily because people want that.

and especially those who are not sure in the beginning. You know, just let's get together, it won't cost us so much. but I saw Carol's mastery of the group, and I mean it was just amazing to me the way she could work her way from person to person and just switch her focus.

so quickly to the next person's needs. And and I really sensed that because I was watching her. As a teacher, I wanted to learn too, not just can you help me with this? You know, or or yeah, my ball's moving a little bit too much right to left now. It was about studying her her style. And the one thing that I learned from her

Is that you make much more of an impression on an individual when they know you care. Not

The Professor (54:37)
Mm.

Karen Peek (54:38)
just they know what you know. And that's advice that I've shared with other teachers along the way as they were coming through the ranks, is people need to know you care. I've watched young teachers give lessons where it sounded like they told them everything they knew about the physics of the gospel.

Matt Considine (54:59)
Mm-hmm.

Karen Peek (55:00)
And it's like, my God, you lost them five words in. They couldn't relate to you at all because you're just doing you know, an information drop here. You're not teaching. That's not what teaching is because you have to be responsive.

to what you see. You can go into, there's no Monday lesson and everybody gets it, You

The Professor (55:25)
Mm.

Karen Peek (55:25)
gotta break it down. If if you're giving 20 lessons in a day, they're 20 very different lessons. They're 20 very unique engagements. And I think you have to see it that way, you have to be that way in order to be successful. I think during my career as a teacher I was a very good one.

primarily of course it has something to do with what I know. Something. But how I delivered it was far more important than just the content of of the knowledge because, you know, nobody really, really cares unless they are an elite level player about, you know, the angle of attack. You know, I mean nobody really cares about that.

you they want to hit the ball in the center of the club face whether they know it or not. That's what they're trying to do. And being sitting down and explaining all of the physics, well that's great for a round table with other professionals, but it's not

The Professor (56:28)
Mm-hmm.

Karen Peek (56:28)
so great for

for a student and trust me, I have seen a lot of horrific lessons. And and that bothers me because it doesn't have to be that way. You know, people should be more discerning about who they choose. And you know, the organizations, whether it be PGA or LPGA, we need to do more about, you know, letting people within various markets know where these teachers are. I think that's important.

that, someone new coming into the game, if they go to the driving range with their boyfriend, it's it's pretty much over. what what's gonna happen the information isn't gonna be that good. The the the interest probably

Matt Considine (57:09)
The relationship or the golf game? Which one? Both?

Karen Peek (57:13)
either. I think the relationship has a better chance than the golf game. You know, but it's it's just they both failed.

Matt Considine (57:19)
Not in my experience. They both fail, is is what I've found. and I retired from coaching girlfriends,

The Professor (57:20)
Mm.

Matt Considine (57:24)
but

no, it

Karen Peek (57:25)
my gosh. And and it's

it's well intentioned. I mean we all know that. It's well intentioned. But it's gonna be one of the major factors that contributes to people dropping out of the game once they div you know, at least give in to the interest and start. But you're gonna drop. You're gonna drop that. I mean, I've always thought anything I don't do well I don't wanna do.

but at at the same time, you know, that's kind of a moving target. What was what's well thirty years ago it's different than it is now.

Matt Considine (57:58)
Well, I I think there's a lesson here for a lot of our better lower handicaps, better players that listen to our show because I have this th this is such a self-awareness thing. And, you know, beginning golfers and and people that are just getting started, that they don't have as much access to information. There and and there's a lot of places you can get astray, of course, but they're gonna see better players and think to themselves, yeah, that's I need to ask them for for that help. Because I've always been

asked for that help and I almost felt like, well, like I gotta give them something. And I've probably screwed up hundreds of golf games, Karen. Like truly. And and I didn't have that awareness till much later in life where I've s realized, okay, you actually need to stay quiet when people are asking you for that. Sometimes I'll do an alignment thing, but that's it. And tell them to go, you know, find a coach or if I'm, you know, familiar with the area, maybe recommend one. But the

it you good players are not necessarily good coaches. In fact, I've seen the opposite. And that's something that our egos maybe don't let us i understand and we do have to have some humility around the skill, as you said, of coaching and what that takes to be a great teacher, to help people through the process. I I really love that you've had that for a lot longer than most people and and

I hope fol folks listen realize that. you don't have to give definitely not unsolicited advice, but even when people do solicit it, probably p pushing them in a direction of somebody who is specialized to do it is always the way to go.

The Professor (59:35)
Yeah, Karen, I want to follow up that because we have a lot of teaching pros that listen to this podcast. And I I'm of a dogmatic belief as an educator that

My role is less about the knowledge I impart on my students and more about just motivating them and inspiring them and helping them have confidence in themselves, right? And and trusting themselves and acting with agency. So you brought up, you know, delivery being honestly more important than, you know, any knowledge you would say or th or facts or physics you'd say. So the teaching pros out there, what is for you, what have you learned on how to deliver things to, you know, your students to to help them, you know, become a better golfer and really just stay more attached to the game.

Karen Peek (1:00:14)
I think listening to them, i is central.

listening to them and and and creating creating a environment in the time that you have with them that allows them to talk to you. You know, you encourage them to talk to you. You know, it's one thing to say, how does that feel? Well, I don't know that that's a great question to somebody starting out. How does that feel? They don't have any golf feel. I mean you know, feel

It's not something that, somebody gets out of the car and you know, grabs their bag and puts their shoes on. Now they got feel. Maybe the question is, is I it is that like anything you've ever done before? Well then if they tell you no

Okay, now you've got to make some connection to something that they do that you can connect this to. Because, in my view, if I do have a philosophy, the golf swing is not something done on Mars. You know, I think it's very doable, it's very learnable to where you can make reasonably consistent contact with the golf swing.

And get it up in the air, which is you know, in the beginning, that's the challenge for so many people. Okay, get it up in the air. It's the picture in their mind. What has to happen? Well, a lot of people think that what that means is get the club under, you know, under. So what are they

The Professor (1:01:49)
Mm, mm.

Karen Peek (1:01:49)
trying to do? They're trying to lift it up. And and

Well that just flies in the face of everything that we know is required to hit the ball up in the air. And I I have to tell you

I ha I when I was teaching on a full time basis, the the the most difficult thing for me was to stay on time. That was the most difficult thing. Because I really hated to stop at a

The Professor (1:02:22)
Yeah.

Karen Peek (1:02:22)
at a at a time where if we were we we'd just turned a corner, you know, or we'd we'd made some progress on s so it it taught me other things too about maybe

changing the program. when I started the half an hour lesson was the norm. at a certain point I went to the 45 minute minute lesson. when I taught indoors using you know using recording equipment

Those were our lessons. And and what I found is that I could get more done with the person maybe instead of a lesson a week for four weeks, let's do two in the in a week, if we can. Let's do two. And if we work for a couple weeks and get four sessions in, in another week or two, I'm getting you out on the golf course.

The Professor (1:03:12)
Mm-hmm.

Karen Peek (1:03:13)
because it was for me.

It was about taking this non-golfer or this golfer who wants to improve their skills to another level. so let's get this done. And I think that was one of the things too that helped to make me a good teacher is just recognizing that my my my goal here is to get you on a golf course. And the sooner the better.

The sooner you get into the reality of the game and you see, you'll have a better idea of what your needs are. You'll you'll you'll have a better idea of what you need to focus on. You know, everybody thinks they need to, you know, it needs to go, well today it's 300 yards, but if you go back, you know, to twenty years ago, it was 250 yards. You know, it's like that

Matt Considine (1:03:58)
Yeah.

Karen Peek (1:03:59)
was the power stroke, right? Well, now everybody hits at 300 and you know, as we all know, most people don't even have any idea what 300 yards looks like.

The Professor (1:04:09)
That's

that's so true. That's

Karen Peek (1:04:11)
I mean, even looks looks like. You know, I

Matt Considine (1:04:10)
That's true. Yeah.

Karen Peek (1:04:14)
if you're if you're on our first T at Rackham, it's a it's a par five. Slightly over slightly over f 500 yards. And I'm always amazed that the guys that are standing, whether it be blues or whites, it doesn't matter, but the people are down by the green. What are you thinking? I mean, you have no concept.

it's like, and then you they'll tell you I hit it 300. Yeah, but you have no idea where it's going. It's probably 300, two fairways over to the right. and and that's some the realistic getting a realistic understanding of all this stuff takes time. And so you have to be patient. The your your students have to be patient, you have to be patient, but always make it about them. And and

what their goals are. They may not have immediate goals, but I do try to direct people toward have a goal. You know, let's have something that we're working toward. Maybe it's a score, maybe it's a certain distance, you know, with the driver, maybe it's to stop foreputting. But whatever it is, let's focus on that. Let's accomplish that.

And then we can move on, to some other things. But let's get some work done that that that you are going to be able to relate to and appreciate.

The Professor (1:05:38)
Karen, you I g I know our buddy Nico's gonna be laughing at the the three hundred yard comment. So I've ran a practice company with him so for a while now. And we used to onboard all of our members and every male member, when we'd ask him how far do you hit your driver, 280 to 300 yards, every single one of them. We'd always laugh. Like it didn't matter who it was,

Karen Peek (1:05:58)
Mm-hmm.

The Professor (1:06:01)
what their handicap was. It was always the same thing. And to your point,

Karen Peek (1:06:05)
Yeah.

The Professor (1:06:05)
it's like you have no idea how far that is.

Matt Considine (1:06:07)
No.

Karen Peek (1:06:08)
But and and that explains a lot too why you have the recreational golfers. Where do they I mean, this to me seems to be a pattern is that most recreational golfers, if they're hitting an approach shot, it's always short. It's cause they have no concept of

of how far they hit anything. You know, I mean that's or

Matt Considine (1:06:28)
Yeah, the awareness.

The Professor (1:06:28)
So

Karen Peek (1:06:30)
and and you can't say today that they have no concept of how far it is because everyone has those rangefinders now. So

The Professor (1:06:38)
Mm-hmm.

Karen Peek (1:06:38)
they've got it scoped out. They know exactly how far it is and they will end up short. And I will tell you that I know some players that are actually pretty good. They're they're decent golfers. Same thing.

The Professor (1:06:52)
Mm-hmm.

Karen Peek (1:06:53)
And and I was actually playing with a guy a couple weeks ago when I had my putting implosion and I said he said, I can't understand why I keep coming up short. I said, hit one more club.

Matt Considine (1:07:10)
about that? that's

Karen Peek (1:07:10)
You know, how about that?

that's and that's not that's

The Professor (1:07:12)
That's

Karen Peek (1:07:13)
that's not my PhD level stuff there, but but it's factual. You know, but

The Professor (1:07:15)
Yeah, that's not rocket science.

Matt Considine (1:07:17)
Yeah. Yeah.

Karen Peek (1:07:18)
it's but it's factual, you know, and and and that's something that you learn. Try hitting it over the green. Why don't you try them? You know, one fifty and here you are, you know, you're you're gonna stretch that seven iron out and you know, the wind's in your face a little bit, and the pin's back, you're not taking all that stuff into consideration, and then you hit the front of the

you hit the front of the green and you're forty feet away. That's a

Matt Considine (1:07:45)
know, Karen,

I I people need to hear this. many I I play with regularly need to hear this. But it it takes me to now that we're on the topic of yardage, it takes me to you mentioned I think you were playing with a a niece or maybe a cousin or something someone new to the game, and you guys were gonna play it forward. You know, you're gonna take her out and you're gonna play it. And that was the same week Kevin and I had the professor or the professor and I had Matthew Regan of Operation Thirty Six, another PJ professional who

has built his his whole career around that program to play it forward, start right off the green, shoot 36 on nine holes and move back. I as I was getting ready for this though, I did some research and I've realized you've been on this block for a while. So as I was on my tirade about, you know, Operation 36 and what they do, you you've actually tried I think put together some programs from 150 yards out and treating every hole like a part three.

Did those did that experiment ever make its way to the courses you you work at and operate? Were you able to build that in?

Karen Peek (1:08:49)
We actually did that at at Chandler Park. you guys are familiar with those discs that you see in the fairways. They're usually it's a dimple disc like a golf ball, you it's a marker

The Professor (1:08:58)
Mm-hmm.

Karen Peek (1:08:59)
for the hundred or hundred and fifty or two hundred. And we actually install those slightly in front of so it's really the

hundred and fifty yard marker of the of of the holes. And yes, we did some things. I mean, we did some things with First T, you know, that's something, you know, the fur when the first T which which has programs in all of my courses, one of the things that

I think is missing from that and I may have shared that with you, Matt, because I I think highly of that program and what they're doing across the country. But at least when I look at it here, one of the things I see is that the kids don't really get out to play. You know,

The Professor (1:09:40)
Mm, mm-hmm.

Karen Peek (1:09:41)
they're they played games in three different stations and you know and and that's good and that's that's fun and that is designed to create interest.

but they also need an opportunity to play. And by starting the holes, you know, so much closer to it, then you're not the challenge isn't as tremendous, but it's a lot more fun because they're gonna experience success, which is the key. And and and how you do that, I've always admired, you know, people, the coaches and the program directors, it

I've always admired their ability to create and sustain interest. I think that's what they do very, very well. I think the next level is can we take that interest and dial up the skill a little bit? Get some of these kids to the point where, well, maybe they're playing and competing in high school.

maybe they'll you know have that opportunity at the collegiate level. and that's where I think if you take some of these young ones, particularly the ones under 10, and you get them started out there, you know, 130 yards from the green and and going from there, it it it could it could sustain the growth that we're experiencing in the industry. And we have to be very cognizant of that.

because the business is cyclical at its best. what goes up does come down. And

Matt Considine (1:11:21)
Yeah, absolutely.

Karen Peek (1:11:23)
and in this, you know, in this timing that we have right now, things are good. You know, things are good. Game's growing, people are participating, numbers are up. But you know, in the back of my mind I am thinking, hmm, we need to be careful.

let's not get drunk on this sauce because it can go the other way just as quickly. You know, we've seen that. What do you know, what do I need to do or what do we need to do as operators to make sure that you know w we we're welcoming, we're making f people feel comfortable and good in the environment at the golf courses.

that everybody's winning here, and and and you have challenges. You got pace of play, you've got all kinds of you've got tea time intervals, you've got pricing, you've got all kinds of things to consider. But we do have to make sure that what we have is an environment where people are comfortable and they feel like we're happy they're there. And and it and that it's real. It's not faked. That we really are happy that we have you as a customer.

And I think we'd do a really good job of that.

The Professor (1:12:35)
Yeah, Karen,

Matt Considine (1:12:36)
I've

The Professor (1:12:36)
you brought up, in doing my research, a lot of you really think hard about sustainable ecosystems for public golf. And obviously you have a heavy hand you know, with the municipal golf courses and you've brought up comfort, you know, is something you see as critical to that sustainability. How do you establish comfort? What are the things you've learned over the years to say, okay, this is what makes it comfortable? 'Cause like, you know, Matt and I, we can't comment on this all. We're the prototypical white male, you know, middle class.

Parents are still married. Like, yeah, we walk in, as you mentioned, males just, we we're comfortable, we can figure it out. But we're, you know, not, I would argue, the le we're the least important population right now for golf. So how do you build comfort for everybody that wants to come play your places?

Karen Peek (1:13:19)
Well I think I think i i if we start at the beginning, I think the first thing you do is you you you you try to have an environment where you have people that look like the people that you are you're entertaining. and and that could be a wide range of of diversity. It could be having women on the staff. it could be having older people on the staff.

a lot of times what what you'll see in a typical golf shop, they're young, white, males, nice looking, dressed well, but if you ask yourself the question, does that message to an older black man?

The Professor (1:14:08)
Mm.

Karen Peek (1:14:09)
does it?

Chances are it doesn't. Now, does that mean that, well, you have to have an older black person to appeal? No, it doesn't necessarily. But I think you have to have some understanding of diversity, but also understand people. For example, I'll tell you something that I hear from black men that I never heard from a white man.

Respect.

It's v it's very easy for a black man to feel disrespected.

And I think you have to be wary of what are the kinds of things that create that. It isn't because you said something rude, you know, when when this person walked in, but what you say. Perfect example of something I heard. I heard one of our young guys with a greeting. Hey dude, what's up?

Now, here's the thing. The first thing I wanted to do was see who he greeted that way.

The Professor (1:15:26)
Mm-hmm.

Karen Peek (1:15:26)
Because that's what makes it either horrible or okay. Well, it was a young guy just like himself. So I'm sure that that was not taken out of context.

I'm

The Professor (1:15:40)
Yeah.

Karen Peek (1:15:41)
sure they I'm sure this young guy didn't think anything about it. However, if he had said, hey dude, what's up? to an older black man, that would have been a problem. Because he may not want to be referred to as a dude. And coming from

The Professor (1:15:58)
Mm-hmm.

Karen Peek (1:16:00)
you, coming from you know, a young white kid, that could make it even worse. So

In from my vantage point, and and and keep in mind, I heard this and I looked. I I sat in my office for a minute and I said, Does this require some comment from me? Should I say something? Or if and then I thought, well if you don't, that comment could be made to the wrong person. So I have to. So I waited for an opportunity to to, you know, kind of pull them aside and say

And explain exactly what we're talking about. That everybody's different, you know, and that sometimes what is just a casual expression to you comes across differently to a different generation. And just be aware of that. You know, be aware. Maybe you don't have to say, sir, but maybe you just dial your

comment up a little bit. How are you today? How can I help you? And eye contact, you know, I mean think that's that's that's critical. Guys, I I played this has been maybe three or four years ago, I played a well-known private club here in the area. And I I got there before the person who was a member that invited me. So I was just kind of perusing the

golf shop. There were three people in there and not one of them said a word to me.

The Professor (1:17:34)
Mm.

Karen Peek (1:17:36)
I I looked around, I I mean I I was thinking about buying something, but not a word. And and I thought to myself, this is pathetic. I

The Professor (1:17:49)
Yeah.

Karen Peek (1:17:49)
mean absolutely pathetic. And and you know what? Please know I never even for a moment thought it was racial. Because my mind doesn't work that way. I'm not looking for that kind of thing.

I never thought that, but I thought you couldn't work for me. There's

The Professor (1:18:07)
Mm.

Karen Peek (1:18:08)
no way I'd have the three of you at any golf course. And here you are at a prime private. And you don't have the skill set. Because you haven't said you haven't spoken to me. It's your job to speak to me first. You should have spoken to me when I walked through the door. That's welcoming. Hi!

Some smile on your voice. Hi, how are you?

The Professor (1:18:30)
Mm-hmm.

Karen Peek (1:18:31)
Welcome. Start a conversation with me. Have you played here before? We're so happy to have you out. Thank

The Professor (1:18:37)
Mm, mm-hmm.

Karen Peek (1:18:38)
you for coming. You know, at the end of the day, thank you so much for being here. Now, people will thank us. We thank them. And and say it with your heart because that's what really communicates with people. And that

That type of culture, I do take pride in developing that. That type of culture where there's customer appreciation, customer value, because I absolutely, lutely want to get the most money out of them that I can. That is my goal. But they're not mutually exclusive goals. In fact, I think they're

The Professor (1:19:17)
Mm.

Karen Peek (1:19:18)
interdependent.

I can charge more because I'm nicer. You know, I'm nicer.

Matt Considine (1:19:22)
Yeah.

Karen Peek (1:19:23)
My courses are nicer. You know, and when you come in here, you come in here and you get treated like you're important for that very moment. You're important to us. And and and that's what I communicate to my teams, my managers, that's what I ask them to communicate to their teams. Everybody that shows up at our door is important to us. Act like it.

Matt Considine (1:19:46)
And I I I'll just comment on this quickly because Kevin, I was headed to another meeting after I had lunch with Karen and we were talking about Chandler Park, which I hadn't seen in a long, long time. And and she had was talking about all the work they had done there and how it's really become this whole area of of activity, you know, and and pools and tennis and all kinds of sports, but the golf course had made updates. So I wanted to see it, you know, with new club coming to town. And I walked into that pro shop.

It was pretty busy day. It was a it was a midweek, hot, beautiful September day. And Erin, I believe, was her name, the the manager there, the one working at the time. Exactly what Karen described. There was there was a group of older black gentlemen laughing at the they had just finished their round and she was engaged with them. her her someone needed some help at the counter, but

She came right at me. I'm just looking around, looking out the window, being a golf nerd, and said hi with with that smile in her voice. And we had as she was doing other things, because we know how busy you guys are at these at these courses, she was doing other things and still engaging with me and telling me about the tables that were made from some historic building. Forgive me, Karen, but it they were really cool looking tables. It well sh

What she's saying, that's that's why your reputation is what it is, Karen. You you you you live what you preach and and that that totally trickles down. I I see the trickle down, you know, you said making more money for the facility. I also see the trickle down in that when things get hard or there has to be a hard conversation or it's a day that isn't going well, having the hard conversation is never possible if it doesn't start that way.

if Erin

The Professor (1:21:32)
Mm.

Matt Considine (1:21:33)
had to tell me, let's say I did tee off and I took, three and a half hours to play the front nine and and Erin had to c come talk to me, I'm gonna listen. 'Cause we had that that encounter. And boy, it's it's it's really cool. I I I just I I I love the way you're you're operating those facilities.

Karen Peek (1:21:52)
Thank you.

Matt Considine (1:21:55)
That's there was I did want to ask about Rackham because I don't want to say I put this into the universe, but sometime my friend Matthew Bartnick, who I've become pals with, sometime between being introduced to him, hanging out with him, and meeting you and then playing with Matt here this this past month, he won the Ben Davis Detroit amateur. Is that was it is it the open or the amateur?

Karen Peek (1:22:21)
Yes.

It's it's it's the open, but it obviously it is an amateur event.

Matt Considine (1:22:26)
amateur

event. So I I just wanted to say congrats to Matthew Vartnick first off. I saw the the picture of you two I go what did I even did the universe just make this happen? But he's he's one heck of a player, a good gentleman. But here's what I wanted to ask was so so Ben Davis has his name on that tournament. What what was he like? What what would he g give us a Ben Davis story or or something

Yeah.

Karen Peek (1:22:55)
I'm sure he'd be humbled by it, he was a very, very humble man. but he had a really fierce spirit and I think we know that because of what he accomplished in the environment that he accomplished it. You know, I mean to go through all of the challenges,

hitting, running into a wall, not being able to play or compete, because of, you know, his ethnicity, that, you know, drove him to, you know, coming north, coming to Detroit and and he had an opportunity to, you know, work on his his profession. The man was a an inspiration

He was an inspiration to people in general, not just people of color, because he was he carried himself with such professionalism and humor and a smile. Always I can't ever remember him frowning.

or being down. If he was down, he didn't show it. He didn't allow others to see it. And that's something you never saw his journey. People told the story after he was gone. But he he didn't talk about that. He was very present minded. he was the type of person who gave of himself.

I've often said that just about everywhere I've traveled all over the country, I will run into someone who knew him or knew of him. And what would follow would be like a testimonial to Ben Davis. That's the type of person he was. everyone liked him, but he earned that. He was a gentleman, he was a solid golfer.

He was a good teacher. he he reminded me of what people say Harvey Penick was like, know, just

The Professor (1:25:04)
Mm.

Karen Peek (1:25:05)
you know old school basic

The Professor (1:25:08)
Yeah.

Karen Peek (1:25:09)
you know fundamentals guy. And and Ben was like that, you know. The fundamentals were very important. He also was one that knew that he was trying to

get golfers from that practice area to the golf course. That also was very, very evident. It wasn't just about standing out there well, making money and you don't care what happens after after they leave. And there are professionals like that. But he was not. It was about let's get you out on the course. You know, he did a lot of playing lessons. and

I I don't know that I've ever met anyone like him in terms of very authentic, very humble, but I think if he knew the influence that he'd made on so many people, he would be shocked. But he did have an extraordinary influence on just hundreds of people.

certainly me, definitely contributed to, to my pursuit of a career in the industry. And he was just an amazing man.

Matt Considine (1:26:26)
Well Karen, th that's a a good place to stop us and I and I'll s what I wanted to say was that legacy of Ben Davis, before even meeting ya, you have such a a wonderful reputation and I think in in the industry, both as a player, as a teacher, as an operator, but i the same can be true of

of you from everything I've gathered. And something you told me at lunch has stuck with me, which was you never really r realize there was other women out there whose experiences in golf somewhat resembled yours. and and you did discover that and and I I think what's so cool about taking the time to be with us today is the professor and I really do care a lot about

The story of golf, the thing that binds us all. And a little bit of that we were able to capture today of your story, of your lived experience, of your lessons, of who you are. And I hope other girls out there find it you someday and listen and and other things that have been honored about you because.

You really are a role model for all of us as golfers, as people. I I just I just wanna thank you for being with us today and and letting us bug you this morning with some questions.

Karen Peek (1:27:53)
Thank you so much. it's really been a pleasure talking about golf certainly is one of my favorite topics. So being able to sit here this morning with you and share and learn has been has been really cool. Thank you.

Matt Considine (1:28:09)
And we would just keep going, to be honest, but the professors got to go teach some kids and you those courses they they need you, Karen. So we'll let you get back to it. and thanks everybody for listening. You know, this show is our curiosities, but it's nothing without you. subscribe if you like these conversations and want to join us each week. you can tell us what you think of the show by rating it, reviewing it. it really supports our mission at New Club and also

The professor and I dedicating time to have these types of conversations. Today's episode, this bag drop, was brought to you by our friends at New Club Golf Society and our partner, Erin Hills. As the season winds down, it is time to plan next year. Be the hero of your group. Get online, go to ErinHills.com The most reservations are already cooked for the year. You might even be looking at 2028. But

Do the golf chat a favor, head over to AaronHills.com and get your trip started. we will catch you all on the next one.