[00:00:00] Hattie Hlad: Welcome to today's episode of Driven by Excellence, where we dive into the latest trends, challenges, and innovation, shaping the world of transport. I'm your host, Hattie, and today I'm joined by a truly inspiring guest. I'm really excited about this one. From her early years and days in recruitment to founding PDT Fleet Training Solutions and transforming it into the highly successful multi-divisional organisation that it is today. She's consistently led from the front, driven by sharp business acumen, unwavering values and deep loyalty to her team.
It's my absolute pleasure to welcome the director of PDT Fleet Training Solutions, Samantha Leleu.
[00:00:48] Sam Leleu: Thanks, Hattie. That's a very nice introduction. Thank you, and I know you've wanted me to sit in this hot seat for, well, the last two years really, isn't it? And we are in our second season, obviously of Driven By Excellence. But do you know what I love the creative and I am a doer, and I've happily sat in the back of this podcast directing from the back listening to all the fantastic guests that we've had on. But as you keep knocking the door to say, please, can you sit in the seat, here I am.
[00:01:17] Hattie Hlad: The stars are finally aligned. So thanks, Sam. We usually talk about the journey of our guests, so the start of their career, and we can say you've had a fantastic career so far. So talk to us a little bit about that. How have you got to where you are today?
[00:01:35] Sam Leleu: Well, do you know what? It started with recruitment and I didn't even understand what recruitment was, and I think that's the the same for most people heading into recruitment as a sector, which you'll know as well, Hats. I'd gone for an interview to become a recruiter, which in my mind I thought was, well, we'll just find people jobs.
So that sounds something I'd like to do, and I ended up in a really plush office, in a very nice area in Bristol, being interviewed and they ran what it's known as a psychometric test. So they asked me after the interview, we think you'll be a great recruiter, what sector?
So they talked me through the sectors and I said, okay. They went through professional services, they said warehousing and logistics, and they asked me, which one do you think you'd be more suited to? And I said, well, obviously professional services, and they said, yeah, actually your psychometric test says you'll be fit for logistics and warehousing. I didn't know quite what to make of that at the time, but actually, do you know what?
If I hadn't have gone through that interview and chosen this as a sector, then, the rest is history now, isn't it? And it's just, that was a starting point of my path into logistics, training, recruitment, and everything that I'm doing now.
[00:02:50] Hattie Hlad: Amazing, so I am interested to know, obviously you founded PDT Fleet Training Solutions, so what inspired you to start that in those early days? What was your vision?
[00:03:01] Sam Leleu: So I think my personality is always for the underdog. So having gone into logistics recruitment, obviously I was working closely with drivers. When I started, as a trainee consultant, the industry wasn't as it is now. In the sense of, my job would be to find a driver, send them to a client for a shift that needed covering, a more temporary kind of profile of taking on drivers into businesses. Then it would be the driver turns up at the client that I've assigned them to. They'd be, given the keys over a desk, they'd probably be given the worst vehicle in the fleet. And they're told, go to x.
They weren't set up well for the role. You know, it was if you have a license and you come, you know, it's a contingent sort of resource piece. Over the years that started to change, like the attitudes of the client started to change in terms of, well, actually we need them to be safe and we need them to be efficient, and that really hit, when driver CPC come along. It was about educating professional drivers, and I think the client mindset changed in terms of contingent workforce and drivers in, terms of, what is safety and how can we keep our drivers safe and be an efficient business.
That kind of started to open my eyes and we had, our own issue as Pertemps business that we also needed to train our drivers with CPC. So we had kind of like an internal function that we needed to do, and that was given to me by the board to look after, is more of a facilitation piece. But I'm a business woman and so I wanted to see what we could create in terms of actually creating a business and developing products that we could take to market as a training business. Having spent a long time in hundreds of businesses understanding them, and the issues, and that's really where the birth point of the idea of PDT, came from. you know, in 2012 and, it was a big idea.
But looking back now, we've achieved that and more and I say we, because I wasn't the initial expert. The first person I brought into the business was Andy Smart. He's been on this podcast. So go and have a look at his episode. And then the key people like Sadie Booth, who's my GM and I've got heads of department everybody is crucial down to our coordinators and people that have been with us a long time, they've been on the journey sort of building the bricks of our house and PDT, and everybody really cares that we provide value to our clients
[00:05:35] Hattie Hlad: Absolutely.
So on the topic of those early years, what are some of the challenges that you've faced? I'm sure many spring to mind, but can you pinpoint any key challenge that you had to overcome? I mean, when you think about the scale and the growth that you've achieved, what really stands out?
[00:05:52] Sam Leleu: The main two points within PDTs growth are the standout challenges was the starting point. We didn't have a brand, no one knew who we were. Why would any client trust us? And it was building and going out and learning the sector, like really learning the sector and understanding what business' needs were. So a lot of collaboration, bringing the right people into the business. So all of that was tough.
But I think if you're passionate about something, then you know, you need to just be consistent and keep going, and that's what we did.
The second biggest challenge for PDT was the pandemic. You know, we were in a sector that wasn't thought about. So we still had drivers on the road. In fact, probably more than ever in the pandemic, because everybody wanted extra deliveries. They weren't leaving their houses, but training was banned in the roadmap from happening because you couldn't get two people in a vehicle with the social distancing and in principle on paper in the government's roadmap that might have made sense to them.
You might also assume that they're going to be less incidents on the road because there's less people on the road. But actually we had clients that had increased incidents in slow maneuvering because there were more cars parked at home, and so we had a real standstill point where road safety just couldn't go ahead in that time, particularly on road.
We diversified you know, with the DVSA at the time letting us deliver digital CPC, we were able to do that. But,without a doubt, the most challenging time for PDT and all of us that were in it. I can remember Sadie, Andy, and I, working long hours to try and innovate our way through the challenges, and we've come back a lot stronger. You know, I think any challenge, personal, business, whatever is where you grow. It's not pleasant, but it is where growth happens.
[00:07:46] Hattie Hlad: You got to go through it.
[00:07:47] Sam Leleu: You do, yeah.
[00:07:48] Hattie Hlad: You are not only the founding director of PDT Fleet training, you are also the director of Pertemps across the Southwest. I'm interested to know how you manage both sides of your roles so effectively.
[00:08:01] Sam Leleu: Thanks for saying effectively. Well, I think, the first thing is about me, I like busy. Doesn't matter whether that's in business at home,I strive for as close to perfection as I can. Okay. So that's just my nature. It helps that I like busy because I am very, very busy.
It's just taken real while to get in the seat for you. But in terms of the businesses, whilst they are separate, there are a lot of synergies. The main core thing that I focus on in both, are people. They are people driven businesses, and so the skills I initially learned in recruitment I brought to PDT when I started building it, and now my recruitment directorship has expanded. I'm bringing back the skills and learning curves from PDT and bringing that to the recruitment side. In a way it's efficient for me, and it's good to have a handle on different entities of the business as well. because that keeps me keen and interested, and I've got absolutely great teams as well.
[00:09:05] Hattie Hlad: One thing that stands out about your leadership is the loyalty that you have to your team. How do you build and maintain such a strong and successful motivated team?
[00:09:17] Sam Leleu: As leaders, I like to think that I'm authentic. I want to be authentic, okay. Because with leadership, it can often get thought as managers dictating those types of styles, and I don't feel that is motivational. It certainly wouldn't be motivational for me. So why would I expect it to be motivational for anybody around me?
I don't ask anybody that works for me to do anything I wouldn't do. If things are going wrong, I'm in the trenches with them. But it's my job to set the pace, you know, you become inspirational when you're in those challenging situations and your people can see that you are leading. Them out of it
I am proud actually, which is a brave, I don't say very many huge positive things about myself, but I am proud of the leader I am, but also the leader then my managers have become. It's like building a legacy for everybody that comes after.
[00:10:15] Hattie Hlad: An important thing that you mentioned is that manager, that dictator, long gone are those days of just wagging the finger and you need to do this. It's about being that inspirational person on the frontline and developing people and caring for people.
[00:10:29] Sam Leleu: So there are still those managers out there that have that dictorial, you know, my way or the highway approaching a business. And you know what? Ask questions, get feedback, reflect, you are a leader. That's your responsibility to do that.
Those leaders now if you're in a leadership role. Think about this because the next generations, if you don't ask why, they certainly will be asking why, because they want to understand what purpose is and where they fit into that. It's going to be important to shape the style there.
[00:11:01] Hattie Hlad: I think another thing about your leadership is the loyalty that you have for us as a team. Is that something that's always been part of your character and is that what you think is has driven people to stay with the company and develop and grow with you?
[00:11:18] Sam Leleu: So is absolutely my character. Loyalty's really important to me. loyalty is about guiding through the good and the bad and being there for one another. In a work sense, a business sense, or if that's in my personal life, it is who I am as a person and I think it brings out the best in people. If people feel confident, they can approach you and explain there's issues and we'll navigate them together. It means that things aren't hidden beneath the surface and there's that open communication, and kind of feedback loop for me, which means I'm able to reflect.
So, it's really important and actually my biggest passion, and what really motivates me in my career is I want to see people develop. I can drive home and go, God, yeah, it's worth it. You know, I might be exhausted. I'm on the road all the time. I'm here, there, everywhere. It's busy, busy, busy. But it just makes it worth it because I want people to just reach their potential, even if they can't see it. So that's the big motivational factor. I think I'm, I like to set the culture.
[00:12:23] Hattie Hlad: Absolutely, and what a culture you've set.
Now I want to touch in on your knowledge and expertise and talk about the challenges the sector are facing. What are your thoughts on some of the challenges that business and other sectors are facing? There's a great deal of economic uncertainty that's happening.
What do you think the biggest challenge for the industry is and how do you plan to navigate that?
[00:12:47] Sam Leleu: It has been challenging since the pandemic,it has been feast and famine, economical issues, one thing to the next, fuel hike, tax rises, and we're just about to head into April and businesses are holding their breath.
Because yes, is another huge challenge, where businesses are going to be paying so much more, and not in investment, it's going to pay back. Just to stand still. In the longer term, well, short term and long term, actually, the biggest challenge we have as business operators across the board, doesn't matter what necessarily what sector, is skills.
We don't have huge pools of skilled workforce. That's a problem. We can hear all the fancy new age things that are coming. We can talk about AI, you can talk about renewables, about this, about that, but we also don't have the skillset for our core jobs like logistics. You know, we've done a lot of work through government contract in bringing through new drivers, and right now it might not feel like there's a huge problem. But there is because our economy is slow and anything can move an economy, so the press could move it tomorrow. If the press wrote tomorrow, there's going to be a fuel shortage. We'd be short of drivers. We'd be short of operators in the warehouses, so we have to be really agile as business leaders to survive through this. But we have to look at skills and we have to work to invest in skills or find ways.
There is government funding out there, we've just done our huge HDV skills bootcamp for the, the last three years, and we've done some great work with hundreds of clients where we've been able to fund and run all the training programs for them. But absolutely, skills will be an issue.
[00:14:33] Hattie Hlad: It's interesting that you say that, I mean, the logistics sector has been hit with fluctuating demand, workforce shortages like you've mentioned, increasing operational costs. So how do you see these conditions shaping 2025?
[00:14:49] Sam Leleu: I think it's going to be a tough year for logistics. You know, logistics margins for haulage operators, it's really low. We've not just been hit by some of those pandemic things and those, far out things. You've hadlevy tax put on employers and then they're unable to then invest into their workers.
And when you've got low margins, it's eating away at the opportunity to invest in people or to invest in innovation. So I do think it's going to be achallenging year for all sectors, logistics included. How do we navigate through that? Well, business leaders, I'm sure will be sat down thinking about how they need to cut the cloth ahead of, obviously, this next lot of tax hikes. It is very easy, and I've watched it before, businesses will say, well, we're not going to do this on safety anymore, because, you know, that's a cost and it's not a revenue making department, fleet managers and things like this, but actually making that cost saving there now, or reducing down that whole safety provision for your drivers, actually, it could mean increase in incidents and higher insurance premiums and loss of brand because you've had you know, an awful instance and stuff. So my plea would be if you're sitting down and deciding, okay, how are we going to survive through this? Just impact, assess everything.
If you are investing in training for safety or in your people, then make sure what you are doing actually adds value. There's some really interesting things I get to see and learn in what I do day to day and being out there within businesses and talking to clients. So if you know your investment line is tight, make sure you spend it wisely. Don't spend it tick in a box. Make sure it's actually going to return you a value, in whatever way, and that value could be financially, it could be, from a cultural perspective, from how people feel working in your business.
Look at what matters, talk to experts. It's the same on the recruitment side. If you have business issues and you need a different viewpoint, then talk to an agency consultant. Talk to your, the managers within those businesses because they see thousands of businesses. They know what good looks like and if you've got retention problems or you've got skills problems or anything like that, talk to them because they know.
[00:17:09] Hattie Hlad: They're a consultant for a reason.
[00:17:11] Sam Leleu: They are consultant for a reason. So I think it's going to be tough, but actually if you consult with the right people and they're able to help you, solution driven, innovate, measure back, what the investment's going to return and have that experience that's going to just help navigate through some of these challenges and make any business just that bit more agile.
[00:17:35] Hattie Hlad: A big part ofour businesses is agency drivers. Agency drivers clearly play a huge role in keeping the transport and logistics sector moving. However, with driver shortages, how crucial do you think agency drivers are in bridging that gap? And do you see the demand for them increasing?
[00:17:56] Sam Leleu: Yes, so I can get on my soapbox about agency drivers having been doing this for 20 years. Like I said at the beginning, I like the underdog. I've always been an advocate for the professional driver, especially agency drivers. I was sat in a conference not long ago and a joke was made about agency drivers and bridge strikes and oh, it gives me heart palpitations. But the reality is, I wear both hats. So sometimes I'll be going into a business talking risk, and other times I'll be going into a business talking workforce solutions. But with agency drivers, it's the agency's job to find, recruit, manage, make sure they're obviously eligible to work, reference check them, do all of that due diligence before, and then they go into the client and they're under the client's jurisdiction and control or license or whatever, depending on obviously what class driver it is.
But actually when you think about agency drivers and how important they are, and that was your question, it's not just important because of the shortage of drivers, it's important because of how the consumer spends money and when they spend money. So logistics has extreme peaks and troughs and depending on what your product is from the client, that will be in different places within the year.
So the contingent workforce is there to bolster the supply and demand, peaks and troughs, that go throughout the year. So it's fundamental. But agency profile, the profile of usage of a contingent driver has changed in my career in my 20 years.
It used to be very much very ad hoc. Go to this business one day, that business the next maybe spend a week and actually, it's more longer term hires. So we have a good percentage drivers that are longer term hires that actually choose to be an agency driver because they like the flexibility.
Now, if you are taking on longer term hires and your expectation is the agency should manage all the risk of that driver. That's not correct. if you've got a perm driver that's with you and you induct them and you give them all, you know, road safety like content or whatever you're doing with those there needs, you should really be asking the question, should you be doing that with your long-term agency worker, making them feel, part of your company and understanding the culture.
So I think that it's agency drivers do get a bad rap, but I think is a duel. It's a collaborative responsibility, especially if you are, if you're doing long-term hires, and arguably they could be some of the most experienced drivers because they're changing vehicles, you know? They've got a lot of varied experience rather than potentially consistent.
[00:20:38] Hattie Hlad: So do you think there is a demand and you see them increasing? Obviously you mentioned during peaks and troughs and that be an important thing. But is that something you see in 2025?
[00:20:48] Sam Leleu: Yeah, I do. I think the economy is fragile. It could go one way, it could go the other. So businesses will have to be, like I said, use the word agile. That's how we will survive, and to be able to be agile, you need a good recruitment partner. You know, Pertemps is the largest supplier of drivers in the UK.
But we don't just do that. We invest in the background as well in terms of drivers. We have our own academy, advanced driving. It's about, really being a part of the sector partner with the right...
[00:21:16] Hattie Hlad: The right people.
[00:21:16] Sam Leleu: Yeah, yeah, for sure.
[00:21:18] Hattie Hlad: So do you think more businesses could be doing more to support new drivers and agency drivers when they're starting their careers? Not talking about what we've just mentioned, training opportunities, but integrating new drivers into their operations. Offering stability and career progression. You've mentioned that integration with the perm driver versus an agency driver, what more could they be doing?
[00:21:45] Sam Leleu: We have across the UK a fundamental problem in businesses working with new drivers. There is the assumption that the new driver will be higher risk, and I use the word assumption because I've spent the last two years talking to whoever I can including insurance to say why are we regarding these as higher risk?
I've looked at customer data of people that they don't want to take a new driver. In terms of instance, because they're more likely to have them. But the data's not saying that. Now, I'm not saying it's not the case, and if it is the case, well fine, but we have to transition new drivers into the sector.
We've got an ageing population. Yes, it's come down a bit in terms of the initiatives of the skills bootcamp piece, and investments into drivers. But there's no point investing if then you're not willing to to enter them properly into the sector. I have so many conversations with logistics businesses to say, come on, you need to stand up and be counted for if you want a workforce of the future, you need to see what that suitable transition looks like. You need to talk to your insurance companies, how can we de-risk and they're comfortable with it. Because if we don't, we will just get to a standstill point and it's no good being a business and hoping they'll go and cut their teeth somewhere else. Okay? They could pick up bad habits, bring them in, in terms of your standards and embed them in the businesses. And whilst I say we've got a fundamental problem, I will caveat that with the fact that we've worked with over a hundred businesses in the last three years that have been proactive. They have sat down with us, we have discussed the risk. Okay, what does the program look like? How can we de-risk that? How can we make it possible for them to bring a new driver in? But also make it good for the driver, the new driver coming in. We need to be, do also doing our part for them in terms of teaching them a skill after passing a test, you know, and all of that.
And that way hopefully we'll retain them. Because we do need them. So yeah, so that's my kind of thought process on new drivers and potentially, you know, much the same with agencies. There'll be a lot of new drivers sat in agencies now. Struggling to probably go out to work, and that's criminal. Let's get them out, let's give them the opportunities.
[00:24:05] Hattie Hlad: I completely agree. Despite some of the challenges we've discussed, you've mentioned that lots of businesses now need to be agile, and that's how good business really pushes forward. Why do you think that's so important, especially for those who are potentially seeking growth or innovation?
[00:24:25] Sam Leleu: So they do need to be agile. We have been. If we're still here as a business now, we've been agile. Okay. In terms of growth, more so I'm seeing, and my advice would be, is look at the basics first before you get blinded by the shiny lights of innovation and investment.
So is the business operating well? Is the investment, what's it going to bring for you? I'll give you an example, the most interesting story from years ago was that we had a client that decided to fit reversing cameras on the vehicles because there was lots of reversing incidents and they then started having forward incidents. Could that client have maybe sat down and gone, okay, what is the impact and thought about that before you invest, and like I said, money will be tight.
Investment money will be tight for businesses now. So just make sure it's in the right way, is it's the right decision and you don't sort of get blinded by the lights. Make sure the basics are being done, and by basics I always say culture.
I would say the biggest problem for safety is culture. It's not cameras, it's not extra this, it's culture. If the culture's not right it does have a direct impact on safety. I'll mention a client, actually I'll give them a shout out. CLEAN Linen and Pete Cox, he actually came on one of these episodes as well, so go and see his as well.They have this phrase where they say all drivers must get home. But they actually mean it.
So it's not just a, oh, we've got a strap line about our safety. They do everything to ensure every possible part of the puzzle they're putting together ensures genuinely that every driver gets home and those are the businesses that I absolutely love working with. But do you know what, there's companies that are willing to go, let's have those hard discussions to make change, whether that's with staffing, retention, safety, anything in that people driven space.
And I advise, do that. Put people under an NDA, get the experts in, have the hard and tough conversations because that's where, that is really where the magic happens. It might be tough to start with, but that's where you're really going to find the right steps forward, in terms of whatever the issues are.
[00:26:41] Hattie Hlad: That's amazing advice. Thank you.
So, Sam, you just mentioned culture and the effect that this has the integration of new members and the current culture of the company. Talk to me about that. You mentioned it having a greater impact on the safety. Can you explain that in a bit more depth?
[00:26:59] Sam Leleu: Interestingly, I was with Charlotte Le Maire and she had all of, like fleet managers, logistics managers go and do a mock trial and we were in Birmingham Council Chambers where she facilitated this mock trial. But it was actually a real life case study, and to all the fleet operators, directors, managers were there, we were the jury.
You know, it was a real judge. Charlotte was a barrister.the other person was the defense barrister. And the reality is, we all decided the driver was guilty, but the company was guilty. In the scenario, the company was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, well we just do it this way, and they didn't have the policies so they were found guilty, this company. But out of the driver and the company that were both on trial in this mock trial during the breaks, there was huge discussions. What do you think? What you leaning towards, what you leaning towards. You know, we're talking about senior people within the logistics sector, and everyone felt a little bit like they wanted the driver not to have it so bad in terms of a guilty sentence, but nobody, even though we're those businesses, felt like the company didn't deserve to be found guilty.
And when you think about that, and that's us, and we're in this sector. So if you think about, culture. It's so, so important because there is an actual material impact. You know, that was a real case. That company did get found guilty. So go back to Charlotte's podcast. Go and speak to her. because the work she's doing is absolutely fantastic.
[00:28:32] Hattie Hlad: What you've mentioned is, is really important and no company wants to be in that scenario. But in terms of sort of the safety piece and the culture of of the driver. Why do you think that's so important?
[00:28:45] Sam Leleu: If you have a board, let's say, where they don't really have any interest in the safety, they're concentrating on profitability of a company, then that's going to trickle down because if they don't invest in the safety aspects or the fleet managers or the health and say, if that isn't invested in or trainers invested in, that's a problem.
So you have that side of it. You also have the, that kind of like maybe middle manager level. Where it's the pressure to deliver. So you get lots of drivers that are pressured to do so many drops and actually then safety is going out of the window, but. It's not going out the window. because the driver's decided it's going out the window because the operation has decided that it's more important to do X amount of drops.
Than it, Or you'll get managers, transport offices phoning the drivers whilst they're on the road consistently. So these are the kind of cultural things that if it isn't, if it isn't led from the top then it becomes problematic.
It is that it's from the top down. But one thing I would say in terms of that, if you're not investing in the development of drivers, or you think you've got a really good risk process, perhaps you've got, I don't know, driver coaches in place. Are they being invested in? Because one of the fundamental problems we're we've been coming across over the last few years is where businesses think they're investing in the right solution. So they've got perhaps driver coaches and they're assessing drivers before they come in. But actually those driver coaches haven't been invested in, not qualified, they don't actually know how to coach. So we've done a lot of work with PRIM Fleet Standards, which is DVSA accredited in terms of giving those individuals that you've employed to de-risk and to support and train, the qualifications and the skillset to be able to do that effectively. Again, that goes back to the check what you're investing in. What's the effects of this? Are we doing it properly? We've got a solution, but we haven't trained them to do that solution properly or haven't given that CPD. It is that sort of thing.
And no different from that court case you know, we've got the policy. We haven't fed it out into the where it needs to go, it's not understood. Or we just tell them and we don't have a policy. So it's kind of like doing that whole 360 review will be really beneficial for businesses to be more, you know, productive and creating efficiencies.
[00:31:06] Hattie Hlad: Sam. I'll ask you here publicly now. I want you back in this seat again because there's so many other things I want to discuss with you. So thank you so much for being here today, but this isn't the last time.
[00:31:18] Sam Leleu: Oh, Hattie I knew you were going to say that as well. Maybe, maybe.
[00:31:23] Hattie Hlad: Maybe! Get the reviews, get those likes if you want Sam back on. Thank you so much for being here today. It's been such a fascinating conversation. Your insights are truly invaluable and I think a lot of business will have taken a lot of your advice on board, hopefully.
A big thing about you as a leader is your strong culture and values, and the fact that you've discussed that for businesses is really important. Your leadership and approach, to growth is truly inspiring. So thank you to our listeners for joining me and Sam on today's episode of Driven By Excellence. Stay safe and we'll see you next time.
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