Ep. 118: Understanding Player Needs and Localization

Joakim Hoglund, Head of Studio at Fun Rock, shares insights on designing games for a target audience and the importance of understanding user needs. This episode doesn't disappoint. Tom and Joakim talk about:

• Designing games for a target audience and understanding player needs
• Challenges of creating games for a region you aren't familiar with
• Fun Rock's solution of hiring a team that understands the culture and audience
• Benefits and drawbacks of creating separate servers for different regions
• Role of player-driven decisions in game design
• Emphasis on the importance of localization and being immersed in the culture of the target audience when designing games

Creators and Guests

Host

Tom Hammond

Co-founder and CEO UserWise | serial entrepreneur | Inc 500 | angel investor | startup advisor

What is Mastering Retention?

Welcome to the ultimate gaming breakdown with Tom Hammond and Neil Edwards! Tune in every week as we deconstruct today's top games and reveal the secrets behind their success.

Understanding Player Needs and Localization with Joakim Hoglund
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[00:00:43] Tom Hammond: Hey everyone. Uh, welcome to today's episode of the Mastering Retention Podcast. Uh, today's gonna be a really fun, fun episode. Uh, we have yo Kim hERG, then with us, uh, from Fun Rock, um, and, and I guess part of the, the Frag Bite Group as well Now, uh, since you guys IPO'ed recently. Um, yeah. Uh, super excited to talk to you about a topic that I don't really think gets that much.

[00:01:10] Uh, Focus on, and that is kind of this idea of designing for a target audience. Um, but what happens when that, uh, audience isn't exactly you, which I think often happens, uh, even if we are making a game for ourselves, I feel like. We very quickly realized that maybe like we wouldn't be the most engaged player group of, you know, this target or the feature that we're making isn't just for us.

[00:01:38] So how do we put ourselves in the shoes of the audience and understand [00:01:43] what drives them, what keeps them engaged, uh, so that we really make the best experiences for them. Because, you know, after all, making games is fun, but it's really for the players, right? Um, so, uh, before we dive into that, uh, I always like to start with, you know, kind of the story of Yo Kim, uh, you know, how did you get into games and, and how did you end up where you are

[00:02:03] Joakim Hoglund: today?

[00:02:04] Alright. So, I mean, obviously, first of all, thank you very much for having me. It's, uh, an honor for sure. It's a great podcast. Um, so, uh, I played a lot of games, obviously all through my life. It's, uh, a thing now. People in my age. Uh, middle aged, you kind of, uh, have a lot of, uh, computer games behind you. And I always loved games and I did some programming made, made a few games when I was like in very simple games in Q Basic when I was, uh, a teenager a long, long time ago.

[00:02:33] And then, uh, I was actually working in, uh, the IT industry as a consultant and doing different things, networking, servers, these kind of things, technical stuff, [00:02:43] really fun things. But, uh, one day my, one of my friends, he, uh, was a freelance, uh, Graphics artists at the time doing a lot of, uh, marketing work.

[00:02:52] And I was freelancing as well in the IT sector, and he just said, oh, I would just love to make games. That would be so much fun. And so I said, me too. Definitely. That would be amazing. So, uh, what happened was that we quit our freelance, uh, uh, gigs that we had at the time, and we started a company and started to make a few games.

[00:03:12] And, uh, yeah, I learned unity. I never heard of it before. Uh, and he was doing the graphics of course, and, uh, it was a great two and a half years, uh, doing this, the two of us. It was amazing in all kinds of ways, except economically that was not so great. But we learned a lot. That's how we got into the industry.

[00:03:31] Both of us afterwards, we got, he started working at King. I started working at, um, Tokyo, uh, Swedish company, making kids games. And that's where we kinda started it. But we didn't know [00:03:43] anything about the market. We didn't know anything was feasible, free to play. We were a few years behind the market, uh, thinking just make a game and it's gonna work out.

[00:03:51] It didn't. But, uh, I think eventually after probably, uh, five years from we started, we actually broke even. We were break even on. The money we put in, so to speak. So I call that a success.

[00:04:04] Tom Hammond: That's, that's, that's a success. You know, I for sure, I always told my wife, when I started my first company, I was like, if, if we can like, make enough money that I pay off our debts or whatnot, like I, I, I consider that a win.

[00:04:15] Joakim Hoglund: Definitely. Yes. Yeah. And, uh, just to continue in the business afterwards. Uh, but I've been here in, in Farm Rock and Praise studios now for six and a half years.

[00:04:25] Tom Hammond: Uh, what have you been doing at, uh, fun Rock over those years? Like what titles? I know you're head of studio now, but, uh Yeah. What's that kinda look like?

[00:04:33] Joakim Hoglund: So initially it was a, Uh, consultancy, uh, gig. Basically they said, okay, let's, uh, we need to just finish [00:04:43] this game here and, uh, it'll take about six months. So I started as a programmer. I was doing, uh, unity coding the client, and uh, it was four x project and um, but it was actually supposed to be a port of a previous web game to mobile.

[00:04:59] So it was supposed to be a much, much smaller project than it. Turned out to be, uh, eventually, but I started as programmer and then, uh, I was leading the front end team for a while when we staffed up with a lot more people for this. And, uh, then I was doing, uh, started doing game design as well, moving more to the product, uh, direction of things.

[00:05:21] And, um, yeah, eventually, uh, taking care of Studio as a head, as the head of studio, since I've been involved in most things. The only thing I don't do hands on is, is graphics, basically. No 2D or 3D or anything like that. I know how it works, but I

[00:05:37] Tom Hammond: can't do anything. I, I've always had this dream where I could be artistic and and talented and, [00:05:43] you know, I figured out that, uh, I couldn't draw.

[00:05:45] So I was like, Ooh, I'll teach myself blender. And then I, I figured out that, oh, you still have to be able to visualize and put the thing. So, you know, um, kudos to artistic people. My wife is an amazing artist. I cannot. Me neither. No, I, I, I love artists and, uh, I appreciate the things that they can do and so, so that's cool.

[00:06:07] So this MMO title, um, it was really meant to be focused on. Kind of the, the, the MENA region, uh, kind of like a, a game of Sultans as you would specifically cater towards, uh, that population. Is that correct? That is

[00:06:27] Joakim Hoglund: correct. Uh, yes. It was a very, I would have to say now, Afterwards that, uh, the ceo, David Wallinger, that created, uh, the, uh, started fanook, he had this vision of creating games for the Middle Eastern region, and, uh, specifically [00:06:43] strategy games.

[00:06:44] Figured that was a good match. And it turned out, uh, and mean. This was before, uh, uh, any of these, uh, big fourex games that are, uh, super big now. And even before, um, uh, need har uh, three, lost the English title. Can't remember, but that was one of the biggest first ones there in the area that was bought by Steel Front, um, and turned out to be really, really good, uh, monetization wise and everything.

[00:07:10] So that was his plan. But, uh, we couldn't execute fast enough basically, uh, to be in that spot. So they kind of were before us. Uh, but the plan was, uh, all along to make, uh, localized not only by text, but more localized in that sense to really fit the region.

[00:07:29] Tom Hammond: So, so you guys are based in Sweden though. Um, so how would you have approached, or how did you approach even understanding like what, what these people, you know, want and how [00:07:43] they think and how they behave, and how do you actually localize a game?

[00:07:46] You know, for mid middle Eastern countries? Like for me, I, I know basically nothing about like their daily life and their beliefs and all those cultural things that I think. You know, you, you don't really realize you understand all those things when you're like living in the us, but it's vastly different even if I was to then move over to Sweden.

[00:08:05] Right. There's just a lot of little things that you just pick up on that aren't really readily available because people just know them.

[00:08:12] Joakim Hoglund: Yeah, definitely. And I obviously didn't know anything. Uh, about this at all. I was just, uh, code this game. Go for it. Okay, I will do it. And I wasn't involved in the product or game design initially either, but, uh, I think the turning point, obviously David's super sharp, uh, extremely good, uh, CEO and, and, uh, good, uh, person in general, uh, had a great vision.

[00:08:36] And I guess I don't think that he understood the complexity of it as well either. Initially none of us [00:08:43] did, I think. But uh, so we kind of just did what we thought was good basically. But quite soon after I joined the company, probably about, I'm not sure exactly, six months later, maybe, something like that.

[00:08:55] We hired, uh, a guy that was living in Sweden, worked at True Caller before, and his name is Mike Deta. He's now the CEO of, uh, so he's the, of the company where I work right now, and he is from Egypt. Originally, but he came to Sweden back then, I think it was a few years earlier, to do a master's program at K T H.

[00:09:19] And uh, he started working at True Kohler, leading their marketing efforts in the MENA and, uh, uh, Northern Africa region, India as well, I think something like that. And um, so we hired him basically, and he obviously knows the region, knows the culture, knows everything. And at that point we also set up a studio in Egypt.

[00:09:39] With, uh, developers and, uh, QA and [00:09:43] crm, obviously we have to have someone that can, uh, interact with customers properly. Yeah. Mm-hmm. So that's, uh, when we kind of got the knowledge a bit more hands on what we actually need to do and what, how to kind of understand the, the audience a bit more.

[00:10:00] Tom Hammond: Yeah. So do you think that, you know, if I really want create a game for.

[00:10:07] The US say I should be located in the US from like a studio perspective and just immersing myself, you know, as much within that culture. Same thing if I'm like really focused on Brazil, like is it going to be the best to be located there? Or you know, could I feasibly make a really great game designed for Brazilians while living in Sweden?

[00:10:28] Joakim Hoglund: And of course you can. But I definitely think there's a big bonus and it makes it a lot easier if you're actually located in the country or in the. In the region, we're actually making games for, in our case, there are, there's [00:10:43] not that much gaming. Game development experience in the Middle Eastern region and in Sweden.

[00:10:49] Obviously we have a lot of, uh, um, it's, it's quite, uh, developed, I guess. We have a lot of very experienced developers that have been doing this for years and years. There's a lot of companies, there's a lot of talent that you can actually use to create the game. So I think. Definitely it's great to be in the area, but if you don't have the, the right talent in the area that can actually do what you need to do, then you have to solve that somehow.

[00:11:13] But in our case, the solution was to do a hybrid. Basically. We have one office in, in Alexandria, in Egypt, and with people there that knows the culture, that knows, uh, uh, the audience that we're catering to, and then in Sweden where we could, uh, have very experienced developers. That can actually create the products and the tech that is needed to do it, basically.

[00:11:37] Tom Hammond: So it, it's almost like having this like tandem of, okay, we've got the, uh, the team [00:11:43] over in Egypt that's going to really help us understand kind of the needs of our players. And then I've got this talented tech team that can kind of. Take that feedback and turn it into like a really quality product.

[00:11:58] Joakim Hoglund: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:11:59] I think that's a good way of summarizing it. And obviously we had, uh, here in Sweden, uh, so we had him with us in the office all the time as well. Mm-hmm. So he was the, the link with Egypt, he was the one that set up the office and, uh, all the contacts and everything and. Kind of gave us the information needed to, uh, design the game for the audience.

[00:12:20] That's

[00:12:20] Tom Hammond: very cool. You know, thinking about the, the MENA region as a whole, um, I, I assume there's some, maybe not as drastic as like, you know, going from America to, uh, Saudi Arabia, but, you know, are there differences between different countries over there, like, um, you know, Egypt to, to Saudi Arabia, or, you know, otherwise.

[00:12:42] Joakim Hoglund: Yeah, [00:12:43] there's a huge differences, definitely cultural wise as well, but there are some things that kind of bind the whole region together. Obviously, uh, religion wise and language wise, you have some strong connections even between the countries, so to speak. But there's definitely a very big difference between the Saudi players and the Egypt players, for example.

[00:13:04] And you have to kind of try to cater to both of them and, um, try to use the strengths of each group basically, and what they con contribute to the game. So the Egypt players contribute with some parts that's. Improves the gaming experience and the Saudi players, for example, were contributing with, uh, something else that also contributed to, uh, a nice gaming experience.

[00:13:29] So the combination works out really well, I think if you have a game that can kind of support this.

[00:13:35] Tom Hammond: So do you find that having kind of, uh, say one game or like one server where everyone's kind of interacting with each other? [00:13:43] Makes the most sense or, you know, I have seen some games, and maybe it's not as prolific, but you know, sometimes you split your servers by like the APAC region versus the North America region to, you know, group your players a little bit differently.

[00:13:56] Like, um, you know, do you ever recommend doing something like that where like, I group my Egyptian players and that group, my Saudi players, Where they kind of have separate gameplay experiences or maybe slightly different economies or, you know, anything like that. Absolutely.

[00:14:11] Joakim Hoglund: It does make a lot of sense to do it.

[00:14:12] It also has a few drawbacks. Uh, I would say what I've seen is that in these kinda games, obviously conflict is what kind of fuels the gameplay. Everyone is just nice and pleasant to watch each other. The games become a little bit boring. It's become, yeah, I mean, you do the things, the artificial things that you as a game designer has have created for them to kind of fight over and you kind of force them to at least fight here.

[00:14:37] But when it really becomes fun and engaging, I think is when players kind of create their [00:14:43] own fights. They create their own, um, conflicts, so to speak. That is one thing that is more easily done, I would say, if you combine Egypt, for example, and Saudi Arabia. But at the same time, we know that a lot of players from Saudi Arabia would like to kind of have their dialects.

[00:15:02] They would, they don't want to see as much. Maybe the, uh, I mean the Arabic is different in, in the, all the different countries, and they want to have the. Saudi Arabian, uh, Arabic, for example, spoken and that kind of localization. In the games, they will see it in their dialect. They want this, for example, but the Egypt players don't want it in that way.

[00:15:25] Uh, what we did was we did it in a, like a, the generic Arabic, the, I don't know exactly what they call it, but yeah, some kind of thing that everyone knows about, but it's a bit, it's not so natural as it could be if you did it in a specific country dialect, for example, Saudi Arabia. And that's something that could definitely be [00:15:43] much better.

[00:15:43] For the Saudi Arabian players, if the game was actually made with their dialect in their way of speaking, these kinda things. Mm-hmm. But we made it for the whole region, which had positive and negative effects I would say.

[00:15:56] Tom Hammond: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I mean, you know, if we get that British, uh, English in here where they're putting, you know, all these unnecessary used and words and stuff, you know, totally, totally wrong.

[00:16:07] No, I love my British.

[00:16:11] Did you, or do you let your players like chat amongst themselves? Like I assume for our Forex game, you know, you allow the creation of, you know, guilds and things like that. How do you handle localizations and, and players like are they, are, can you make a guild where you have Arabic players and Egyptian players and I realize there's other countries here, but we'll just, you know, stick to those two for Yeah.

[00:16:33] Makes the sake of these. Um, but yeah, you know, could you have a guild where you have both groups of players. You know, within Wendy Guild.

[00:16:40] Joakim Hoglund: Absolutely. This is quite common, I would [00:16:43] say, but it's also, I. I mean, sometimes you have the, like big spenders, they want to kind of rule over an alliance and be the boss of an alliance.

[00:16:51] And uh, it's easy to kind of take, uh, players from Egypt that don't spend as much. Uh, they would love to kind of be in that environment and, uh, have a big leader that is very strong and can kind of help them and protect them with everything that comes along with this. But also there are alliances where people.

[00:17:09] Really want to stick together. The Egyptian players, they play a lot and they fight really hard. They spend a lot of time and the sort of players in general, they also play a lot and, and do, uh, fight really hard. But they, they spend, so they have an, uh, upside, they spend a lot more in general, so they have, of course more power in general.

[00:17:29] So an alliance made solely out of Saudi Arabian players that are paying. Will definitely become quite strong. And then several other alliances will have to kind of work together to have a [00:17:43] chance against that alliance, for example. But there's definitely a mix of, um, countries, but you can also set like a flag on your alliance, select, uh, which kind of, uh, symbol you want to use, if you want to use flag or something else.

[00:17:57] And a lot of, uh, lines is they put their country flag basically off there. Person who created it, and it's natural that a lot of players from those countries join that specific alliance as well. Yeah. Do

[00:18:08] Tom Hammond: you think, and, and I'm getting a little bit towards like game design here, but like, do you think that it is better to leave these different types of decisions to be a little bit, uh, more open and let your players almost drive that a little bit of like, okay, I'm going to let whoever wants to join a guild.

[00:18:26] Join a guild, but I'm gonna give the Klan leader the ability to like write what the description is and to kick people and to have, you know, thresholds and stuff so that they can basically decide, hey, I'm the type of player where I wanna spend big and I want to have a bunch of people that I can kind of protect.

[00:18:42] Or, [00:18:43] Hey, I want to be in a very competitive guild, so I wanna be in a lot of, you know, with a lot of people that spend heavily like me. So we're gonna be in this like top tier, really competitive, you know, guild or something like that. And you know, I want to be in just an Egyptian guild with my friends locally that I play, you know, the game with in real life.

[00:19:01] Um, and so, Give them a framework, but you more let the players decide how they want to orient things. Yeah,

[00:19:08] Joakim Hoglund: it's, again, there's a lot of, uh, good and uh, like positive or negative effects with the different approaches, I think. But what I've seen is that it's definitely great to have the players be able to decide and kinda set up their lines the way they want.

[00:19:23] It's an invite only alliance, for example. And you just pick and choose the players that you really want to have in your alliance. You create a really strong one. You create one with just Egyptian, uh, players, for example. You, uh, create one that is focused on, uh, the end game a lot, whichever way. I think that's really strong and really helpful, and you let them write their own [00:19:43] descriptions and, uh, set the limits of who can join.

[00:19:47] This is how we, we did it. I never saw, I think, but my Arabic is not great. But, uh, I, I don't think I saw descriptions of alliances that were so specific as to like only high spending players, uh, that are aiming really for the top, for example. Not these, those detail were not that common, I think. But one thing that also happens when you kind of le lead this to the players is that some players might.

[00:20:13] That are not so driven on their own, might not join alliances or might not join an alliance that's good for them, or that suits their purpose, which is a very important part of these games. To be in an alliance and to have that group, you'd have no chance in the game if you're not in a group. So that kind of destroys the experience a bit.

[00:20:32] And in this sense, it would be good to have some of these games too, like automatic alliances. You're assigned to one no matter what, if you want to or not. And this Supercell has gone even further. [00:20:43] Uh, as well to kinda just, you have no choice in the matter. You just, they take, um, so, uh, which also has a very good, uh, effect depending on the game, I think.

[00:20:54] But when it comes to real time games, when you can actually interact with the players specifically like. I can take my army and walk to your base and crush you if I want to. When you have that kinda one-to-one, you can just find a guy that you want to find or do something with a specific person. These kinda games, I think it's much more important that you leave up to the players a bit more to decide.

[00:21:16] Uh, but you can do it more automatic if it's like you actually never, you don't pick the fight, but it's actually picked for you or

[00:21:23] Tom Hammond: these kinda things. Yeah. That's interesting. Okay, so, uh, getting back a little bit to the original topic, which is, you know, understanding your players. Okay. So I think that even if I had a studio in, let's say Egypt, I feel like I would probably struggle because, you know, obviously every Egyptian is gonna be different, right?

[00:21:41] Um, even if I pick. [00:21:43] 40 year old Egyptian men as my target audience, even amongst them, they're probably all gonna like different amounts of things and stuff, and a certain sub segment of them are probably going to fit, you know, the game that I'm designing. So, um, how did you guys actually go about like finding the people that you think are gonna be your Forex players and understanding like, what are the types of things that they want to have in this game?

[00:22:06] Did you do like focus groups or surveys or like, yeah. Well, what kind of stuff did you guys do? And what would you recommend others do?

[00:22:14] Joakim Hoglund: I would recommend others to not do what we did. Uh, definitely I know a lot better today than I did back then, but, but, uh, I wish we would have done these kind of things.

[00:22:25] We didn't do anything of that. We didn't have a strong game designer in initially, which is, uh, something that I definitely now would have been very, uh, Serious about like, don't build this thing unless you have someone with that knowledge beforehand. So we learned [00:22:43] as we went, basically, but then things take a lot longer than, uh, they need to.

[00:22:48] So, but I would, uh, yeah, we didn't do any of these kind of things. Uh, and obviously when it comes to one country, you don't design a game for a country in general because, There's no, I mean, as you said, there's a lot of different people, even if it's a country, sure they have some things in common, but when it comes to games, they play all kinds.

[00:23:12] So you still have to do the same kind of, um, uh, focus groups or, uh, surveys or research around what you actually need for your specific game, even though you have a very, like specific target group, Arabic speakers, the Gulf Egypt. You definitely still have to gather that information to be able to find the right players.

[00:23:37] Um, I think we, uh, we're relying a lot also on like Facebook and uh, performance [00:23:43] marketing to kind of get the right players in, but you need a lot of skill in that area as well. And, uh, uh, that's quite hard. But yeah, I would definitely recommend anyone doing these kind of things to, uh, use the tools that are available today.

[00:23:59] We have a lot of tools that can help you figure out the audience and, uh, what they want, uh, um, trades or, uh, uh, different, uh, kind of tools that will help you a lot in. Figuring out exactly what your audience

[00:24:16] Tom Hammond: is looking for. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, I, I guess I'm just thinking, you know, do you think that 12 traits is, you know, necessarily the best way?

[00:24:26] You know, I, I think about like, Let's say Candy Crush. Um, now I, I know it's not the first, you know, game that came in, but, um, we'll, we'll pretend it's the first. And so, you know, candy Crush started and blew away the match three, um, [00:24:43] genre, right? And really established it of the, the true power. Um, but Candy Crush isn't perfect for everyone, right?

[00:24:49] Um, and I, I think. Of the, the players that didn't really enjoy Candy Crush. I, I feel like it kind of was this empty, meaningless experience of like, why would I keep playing level after level, after level to just like keep, like moving forward when there's really like, there's no story, there's no depth, there's no, you know, why am I doing this?

[00:25:10] And then Homes scapes came in and said, well, you're playing those levels so that. You can rebuild this mansion or you can rebuild your garden or whatnot. Um, and, you know, I think that solved something. And then, you know, Lilly's Garden came in for the players that were like, well, why do I have a mansion?

[00:25:32] Like, what's, what's the purpose of this? And they kind of, you know, layered in this like rich narrative so that you're now like connecting with. Lily and you're connecting with the characters and you're like [00:25:43] building more of this like fundamental depth, um, so that like you're more engaged in the story and in her life and you're playing the levels so that you can continue to unwind these mysteries and romances and, you know, live this life with her, basically.

[00:25:57] Um, and it's kind of stepwise and there's like, you know, problems in there. Um, I remember there was a book that I read, um, where it was talking about golf and, uh, back in probably the early nineties or so, um, there was a company that wanted to make a new golf club. And at that point in time there about 10% of men in, uh, America were kind of their target audience of, of men that played golf.

[00:26:24] Um, and rather than focusing on. The 10% of men that played golf, they said, well, let's look at the 90% that don't play golf. So why don't you play golf? And a big glaring problem came [00:26:43] about. I was talking to men, which was, well, I don't wanna play because I suck at it and it's hard to hit the ball and I look like an idiot in front of my friends.

[00:26:51] Um, and so this totally valid. Yeah, totally valid, right? I don't wanna slice it when, you know, everyone else is doing really well. Um, and they, uh, they ended up making this club that they called the Big Bertha, and it's got this like really, really big head and it makes it. Much harder to hit the, like, not hit the ball or not to do a good job.

[00:27:13] Um, and they kind of like, they exploded. But what was interesting is not only did they bring a lot of men into playing golf, or probably some women to, but you know, men was who they were focusing on. Um, and you know, they, they bought the big Bertha and they started using it and playing golf, but they also took a lot of players that play golf but didn't even realize that they had this problem.

[00:27:36] It was more like, Yeah, I have a problem of hitting the ball, but I thought that that was [00:27:43] just, you know who I am, I thought that I kind of sucked the golf and I had to figure out how to, you know, get better myself. I didn't know that there could be a solution for it. Um, had you focused on that 10% of population of players, they probably wouldn't have been able to tell you that their problem is that they can't.

[00:27:57] Hit the ball and you wouldn't have come to that insight. Um, I'm curious, does that sort of mantra translate into games at all? Um, and if so, how do you think you might use that to understand this, like metapopulation for the next four X version, uh, of, of a game that maybe you guys

[00:28:19] Joakim Hoglund: Good observation and good points for sure.

[00:28:21] And I think it has a. Big relevance actually. So the initial thoughts that the CEO had when he created the company was also that he wanted to take the Forex genre that he had experienced with from the web. For example, this was seven years ago or something, and he wanted to, uh, Bring [00:28:43] that together with like the Supercell ease and quality and look basically.

[00:28:48] So at that time, back in the days when I was starting out with them, game of war was huge. That was, uh, the thing basically. So we looked at Game of War a lot and um, There were some things that they could have done better, but obviously they did amazingly well. There was no question about that game war.

[00:29:07] It's just, it was just a fabulous title. And, um, so what we tried to do was to take that game, or similar game. We used a lot of, uh, game war as an influence, and we wanted to make the graphics more appealing. And we made, we wanted to make it more, uh, pleasant and, uh, easy on the eyes, so to speak. And also make the gameplay easier and reduce the threshold a bit, uh, because it's quite hard to understand and to get into the, uh, game of war, for example.

[00:29:42] So that [00:29:43] was the, the way, and we used. Uh, other games as a kind of a stepping board to get to something new on a hypothesis that we should have kind of anchored better beforehand. But that was like, yeah, this makes sense in our heads. Let's do this. And, uh, then that's what we did. And one of the biggest positive things that we have received from the game is that people like the way it looks and, uh, and the feel of it, and that it's.

[00:30:13] Much easier in that sense than a lot of other games. Uh, so I think it's definitely, uh, very relevant that, um, uh, you kind of take something that is, okay, this is nice, this is good, but what are the issues? Why are people not more people playing? It, it makes total sense in gaming as well as as golf and probably a.

[00:30:35] Most areas, I would think.

[00:30:37] Tom Hammond: Yeah. Um, so where did you, uh, kind of gain that insight? [00:30:43] Was that like, uh, just kind of you guys observing it or did you actually, you know, glean from some players that you think would fit well into the game that you know, it, it just, Too hard to get into. Like, for me, for X Games, I, I, I just can't really get into them.

[00:31:00] It's like, uh, I don't know why. Like, I, I love, uh, clash of Clans and other things like that, so like, I feel like I should get into them, but it just seems like there's. So much stuff that you have to do that it's just hard for me to like actually get into the game and I, I can't really tell you why. Like I feel like I should enjoy the game.

[00:31:20] Um, but it just seems like there's like so much or something like, is that kind of how you're feeling or, you know,

[00:31:27] Joakim Hoglund: I think that's definitely, I think that, I mean, it's just too much stuff that you don't understand and it becomes, Overwhelming. Definitely. I also think for my sake and for a lot of other people, for example, when the ceo first time, when the first time he played Game of Wars, I told him like, you have to te try [00:31:43] this game.

[00:31:43] You have to test this out and to see what you think. Um, because he had seen it on the top list and we have shared, showed him and everything, so, so he knew, knew the game they were doing really well. He saw some screenshots and he was like, this is terrible. I mean, we have to be able to do better than this.

[00:31:59] But it wasn't until he played the game that he was, he understood and he got kind of addicted for a few months and, uh, the mechanics were new to him. And I think most people that actually give it a chance and feel these mechanics out for the first time in their life get really affected by it. Because it's like mechanics that really goes deep in your, in the cycle of a person, basically.

[00:32:22] Um, so. Then he kind of understood that, okay, there's something special here. We have to keep this part while still trying to make it easier and simpler, uh, while doing it. But, and for me nowadays, I don't play any Forex games anymore. I, I love them a lot back in the days, but it, I [00:32:43] need something new. It needs to be something different.

[00:32:45] It needs to be, uh, and then the new game came out pretty recently that is mixing this, um, Was it, uh, I think it was Yusof and their Forex, uh, team battler mix, like dark heroes or dark, something like this that really mixes this, mixes it up a bit and makes it quite nice. So they are now solving some, uh, in my opinion, solving some of the issues with traditional four X games, for example, and making it a lot more accessible.

[00:33:17] And the progression a lot clearer, a lot faster this gameplay, this kinda thing. So I think it definitely please appeals to more people while at the same time keeping the four X core, but just kind of presenting it in a very different and modern. Um, innovative way, I think.

[00:33:36] Tom Hammond: Yeah, that makes sense. So, you know, these are kind of the, before the game is launched type of a [00:33:43] scene, um, once you actually get the game launched or soft launched or whatnot, like how does that transition, like how should you be talking to your players and understanding like, what feature should I make next?

[00:33:56] Like I think, you know, if you think about the idea of. How would I say it? Um, if you really, you know, understand the player, um, and like what keeps them playing, um, how they, you know, how they really want to play the game or like what keeps them retained. Ideally, when you're making this new feature, you should have an idea of like, how did you.

[00:34:25] More of those things, right? Um, so yeah, how, how would you recommend like connecting with your community and your players and making sure you understand, hey, these are the things they like about the game, so let's give them more of those, or let's change up this mechanic for them for this reason.

[00:34:42] Joakim Hoglund: [00:34:43] So I think when it comes to, I mean, definitely it's important to listen to the community, to have channels that you can, uh, uh, receive the player feedback and receive it in a very good and constructive way.

[00:34:54] And, uh, listen to them closely. And then you have to kind of translate that because you can't just take it like, we want this feature, we want this, uh, you have to kind of run it through the game design. Uh, goggles, so to speak, to kind of understand what they really need. Cuz it's very hard for a player, I think, unless you're experienced with these things, probably to express what I really need.

[00:35:20] I, I say what I think I need or what's. What I think is the thing, but as you mentioned, you don't know why you don't really like four X games, why you aren't enjoying them. It's very hard. So you have to kind of interpret what the players are saying and understand what the need is from what they're saying and what they really enjoy and what they don't enjoy.

[00:35:41] And then also when it comes to the Middle [00:35:43] East, for example, you know that the, the, uh, honor culture is quite strong and there's a lot like culture parts that are quite strong in, in this, in this region that we could use specifically for our game. And, but, Initially what we did was kind of mostly like we need these core features.

[00:36:05] These need to be present in all games. As we understood it back then, at least all four X games. We need this to be able to even have like a, a core to work from. And once we have this, we will start experiment with a bit more other features and um, we actually have some features that are designed and not completely finished that.

[00:36:27] Is something that is not seen in any of the games that we have specifically tailored for this region that we think will be great. But because it's untested anywhere, really there's, it's not in any games. It's also a big risk. I mean, [00:36:43] we released this and oh, we destroyed the games. Sorry guys. That was a bad move.

[00:36:47] So obviously before releasing these things, we have to kinda get it in the shape so players can see it and test it and feel it out a bit to understand need we understand you correctly here? Or did we totally misunderstand the culture and your wishes and needs in this game? Uh, cause this is quite a big change, a big feature that.

[00:37:06] Could really take this genre to the next level. Uh, but it could also be like that didn't all at all work out in the, together with these other features cuz you're switching focus or whatever we think it will work. But um, Time will tell will be interesting. We'll have to, uh, make sure we do a bit more research before kind of building it properly and,

[00:37:29] Tom Hammond: and putting it up.

[00:37:30] Yeah. Well, we'll keep our eye out. Um, yeah, I, I always liked to the idea of, you know, if a given product owner knows who they're making a game or game future for. And they [00:37:43] understand the unique benefit they're providing within the context of the market, I think you're much more likely to actually create the thing that, you know, provides that value for your, your players there.

[00:37:53] So that, that's great. Um, I think when

[00:37:55] Joakim Hoglund: it comes to this, this specific feature, initially when we were thinking about this, the thing we designed initially was very, Looking back, we, we had several takes on it. It's been, we had discussing it for months and months and months, and maybe pausing it for two months and then discussing it more and coming.

[00:38:13] So the initial, if we would've started the initial thing, it would've destroyed a lot of things because it's a hard kind of nut to crack to get this kind of, we think the players want this. Let's put it in. Oh, but actually, if we put this in, it's gonna destroy these things. Okay. But then we have to make sure that we don't destroy that.

[00:38:31] So it's a very complicated game design problem that comes up when you can get into this, and depending on what kind of information you get and what, what you think that the players want. To [00:38:43] actually provide exactly that without changing other things that you're not supposed to change, you should change.

[00:38:49] So, um, yeah, I think to really understand that, okay, we covered all the angles, now we can move forward and not just like, take the first thing that comes to your mind and this is a great idea, let's put it in there. Or check with something. No. Nope. That's a risky thing to

[00:39:04] Tom Hammond: do. Um, so there's a framework, um, and I forget the name of the framework and I forget who created it.

[00:39:12] Um, but I've used it and I've advised other, uh, entrepreneurs to use it. Um, and I've, uh, seen it be successful. But, uh, it was. Generally designed for, uh, B2B SaaS companies, and the idea is that you set up around 20, somewhere, 20 to 50 meetings with like your most ideal client of like, okay, if I could have this person as my customer, like.

[00:39:39] Everything would be awesome. And you set up these calls [00:39:43] and you know, you, you go through and you ask things about like their company and, and just so you can kind of organize your different thoughts and group things together and stuff. Um, but there's two core questions that you ask them. Um, so the first one is, you know, what are two to three problems that you're trying to solve in the next year related to x whatever, like problem area or thing you're doing.

[00:40:07] Um, That you're trying to solve in the next years? Like what are two to three things that you're like actively trying to solve right now? Um, and then the second question is, you know, if I had a magic wand and I could, you know, ask you or grant you anything in relation to X, what would you want most? Um, and then, you know, you gather those like 20 different interviews and ideally there's.

[00:40:32] You know, some trend or idea, usually they converge, you know, pretty well together, surprisingly. Um, and then you can be like, okay, is that something I [00:40:43] want to do? Is that something I can do? Is that something I can solve from a technological perspective? If you. That's probably where you focus your company on.

[00:40:51] Um, now do you think that sort of interview framework might work with players? Like, if I could set up an interview and I, I, let's pretend game of war is still like the, the king. Um, you know, if I could set up, uh, 20 to 50 interviews with maybe like whale spenders in Game of War that live in Saudi Arabia or Egypt or something.

[00:41:16] Um, and have those interviews like, you know, could I ask those questions and if I can go on and then solve those problems, or grant that magic w that a lot of people seem to be wishing for, you know, do you think that would be enough that they would. Abandon all their time, money, and the energy they've spent in the game of war to come play this new game that solves this big problem that they've been having.

[00:41:39] That's a

[00:41:40] Joakim Hoglund: great question. Uh, first of all, [00:41:43] I would love, uh, magic. That magic wand you're talking about. That will be, uh, a great, um, so whenever you kinda get your hands on one of those, Uh, I'll, uh, pay good for it. Okay. But when it comes to the, I think definitely this would be good, and this could be quite helpful.

[00:42:03] The question is if they would abandon, for example, in this case then game of war to come to us. The kind of thing that we were betting on for the Arabic market was that. Yes, if we solve the issue of localization properly, they would come to us instead of these other games, for example, that would be enough for the Arabic market because there's very little content for them.

[00:42:25] Or back then there was almost no content, uh, properly localized. So I think definitely that framework would work. Well, depending on, once again, I think you have to kind of trans understand the answers and translate them into what they actually mean. Sometimes it could be very clear, [00:42:43] sometimes the what they say, if they would say like, yeah, I would love it in my language.

[00:42:47] That will be a huge thing, and to play with my peers so I can write Arabic in the chat every day and everyone understands me. Okay. That would be super clear. That's not very complicated. You don't have to kind of try to translate that through a game design lens or anything. But other things could be more complicated.

[00:43:00] Um, so I think if you can just, uh, make sense of what they're saying and understand, but the way that you formulated the questions, I think is key as well because it kind of makes the answers be in a format that is already fairly, fairly, um, uh, pure, so to speak. And not a lot of opinion in that sense. But, uh, so I think it matters a lot how you format the questions and, and that formatting sounds like it would be.

[00:43:25] Quite good in this sense.

[00:43:28] Tom Hammond: Cool. Um, yeah, I think my, you know, last question is, do surveys work at all? Or, you know, are there ways that you can and should use surveys? Um, I, I guess I, I always have this like, view, [00:43:43] uh, or maybe my, my problem with purely doing, uh, behavioral, you know, uh, data on like what the players have done is oftentimes.

[00:43:55] That almost leaves, I, I feel like it leads towards averages, right? Like we, we get our average ARP dao and like you can't really build empathy towards a player when you're looking at an Arp Dao trend. Um, and so, you know, I feel like maybe this qualitative data could help you be a little bit more empathetic towards the player.

[00:44:15] Um, is you can't really have empathy towards an averages, but like, if I know that, okay, this segment of players. Feels this way and they're trying to accomplish this thing. This other group is trying to, you know, do this other thing. Um, I can actually design features and stuff to accommodate those things, but if I'm looking them at, at a hole, well these players are trying to do this, these, and you end up looking at like the average and you don't really actually know what they're doing.

[00:44:42] And if you try to make [00:44:43] something for that average feature, I feel like you're not gonna accomplish, you know, either group. Um, so I'm, I'm curious what your thoughts are with that. I think,

[00:44:51] Joakim Hoglund: uh, when it comes to surveys and stuff, I don't have a lot of experience. I haven't done a lot of them myself. So I would, uh, not really say anything around those specifically if they work or not.

[00:45:01] But I think when it comes to all of these tools, if you don't have the knowledge, understanding means resources to kind of take care of the information you receive and know what to do with it, then it's definitely a big waste, uh, because it's, you can't just like, okay, I'm gonna run this tool. Uh, this survey and then everything will be good.

[00:45:24] No, no, no. Then your work starts after you get that information, then you, uh, but I totally agree with you. The more segments you can kind of find and group, the better you can understand exactly what's needed, because. Adding them together, you will not get the correct picture for either of them, and the results can be quite [00:45:43] bad or they can be okay.

[00:45:44] So I totally agree finding the individual, um, segments that are quite like each other and, uh, And it comes down to also like when, when do you try to get a certain, like in your marketing, is that when you like, okay, I'm trying to grab these users specifically. Okay. And when you get users in your game, you have to check again, did I get the right users?

[00:46:07] Is my marketing working? Do I, am I getting. The players, I thought I would. Okay. Yeah. Now I have these different groups in my game. They want, these guys, want these and this, so it's, there's a lot of work to this, so, but I think it's definitely worth it if you have a, a large project that's working pretty well or even before, if you can actually figure out how to do your marketing, which kind of product exactly like you're kind of, uh, mentioning as well.

[00:46:32] Like, these, this is my target group, I'm gonna make an, uh, a game. For them specifically from the start till the end, basically. And [00:46:43] then you just have to make sure that these players actually see your game and understand and get there. Yeah. That's another story I guess.

[00:46:50] Tom Hammond: That makes sense. Well, this, this has been awesome.

[00:46:52] I do have one final unofficial question for you because we are on the Mastering Retention podcast Of course. And that is, uh, you know, what's one tip or trick you've found over the years to help, uh, boost retention? Like how, how do you keep players playing for longer?

[00:47:05] Joakim Hoglund: So I think it depends on the different groups, of course, but you have to figure out what your players are, are about, but definitely making.

[00:47:17] Um, building things around a really nice core game loop is pretty standard and, and obvious, but I think making that a bit more innovative and really thinking about it and feeling it. So when I play games nowadays, I really try to feel and see what's happening, what's going on here inside when I do certain things, why do I feel it this way when I do this?

[00:47:41] And try to kinda gather [00:47:43] those. Um, things. And when I understand that, then I can kind of piece that puzzle together to, uh, create something that is hopefully very engaging for more people than, than just me. So for me, it's, I mean, there's a lot of things you can do for the retention, but specifically for me, I think it's, it's really going down to understanding your feelings and why you feel a certain way and.

[00:48:11] Uh, piecing together that what that really means, and then create it, uh, yourself in a different, uh, setting or, but keep those core principles that you are gathering from what you feel. It's quite complicated, but, um, yeah, if it, if you can do it, I think you will have a lot of success. I like it.

[00:48:34] Tom Hammond: Cool. Well, thank you so much.

[00:48:36] Uh, if folks do wanna get ahold of you, is there a a good way for them to reach out with, you know, questions or anything like that? [00:48:43]

[00:48:43] Joakim Hoglund: I mean, definitely contact me on LinkedIn, uh, you workland fan rock, uh, or uh, send me an email you work fund rock com. Um, check the webpage. My information should be there as well.

[00:48:56] Perfect. Well thank you so much. Thank you very much Tom.