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Have you ever looked at a situation you’re facing in utter disbelief and thought, "How will I ever get over this?" Lysa TerKeurst understands. After years of heartbreak and emotional trauma, she realized it’s not about just getting over hard circumstances but learning how to work through what she has walked through. Now, she wants to help you do the same. That’s why Lysa teamed up with her personal, licensed professional counselor, Jim Cress, alongside the Director of Theological Research at Proverbs 31 Ministries, Dr. Joel Muddamalle, to bring you "Therapy & Theology." While Lysa, Jim and Joel do tackle some really hard topics, you’ll soon find they're just three friends having a great conversation and learning from each other along the way.
SHAE HILL:
Welcome to today's episode of Therapy and Theology, where we help you work through what you walk through. I'm your host, Shae Hill, and I'm so glad you're tuning in today. We're diving into the first episode of Season 13, where each week we'll unpack something from Lysa TerKeurst's new book called Making Peace With What I Can't Control.
SHAE:
Our hope is that each conversation would bring these words to life as you read alongside us and learn how to do just what the subtitle says: find relief from the exhaustion of overthinking, trying to fix others, and wanting to figure it all out. I don't know about you, but I definitely need more of that in my life.
SHAE:
Like I said earlier, this podcast has a clear mission to help you work through what you've walked through. While we often want to quickly get over things, sometimes we simply just have to walk through it. Going through is what will help us get to the other side with a greater understanding that God has always been and will always be with us.
SHAE:
We may experience heartbreak, rejection, crippling anxiety, and relational hardships on this side of eternity, but with the Lord's help, we will survive it and help others believe the same is possible for them. That's why I'm so grateful for the trauma-informed coaching certification from our friends at the American Association of Christian Counselors and Light University.
SHAE:
Taught by leading experts in mental health, trauma, and ministry, it equips you with practical, biblically grounded tools to walk alongside hurting people with wisdom, compassion, and maybe most importantly, hope. Right now, you can apply for a full tuition scholarship to this $1,600 program, and if you're approved, you can get started for just $99.
SHAE:
Visit lightuniversity.com/lysa to apply today, or you can find the link below. Friend, wherever you're listening from today, we'd love to hear what's resonating with you and also what questions you still have. So leave us a comment as you watch or listen to this episode. Okay, now let's hear from Lysa, Jim, and Dr. Joel.
LYSA TERKEURST:
Control issues. Some people refer to themselves as, "I'm a control freak," or, you know, "That's just how I am. I'm controlling." For me, I wouldn't naturally say that I'm a controlling person. However, if someone starts to do something that I can look into the future and see that it's not going to take them to a good place, and I love that person, and their consequences are also going to be shared by me , then yes, I can start to control.
LYSA:
But here's what's really interesting. The real issue underneath control, I think some people assume it's power. It's not. It's fear. Fear can really make us do things that maybe isn't even part of our normal personality. So today, of course, you guys know I'm joined by Jim Cress, Dr. Joel Muddamalle, and we are gonna have an interesting conversation today about control.
LYSA:
The root of our desire to control is not power, it's fear. Jim, I would imagine in your practice, because you deal with betrayal trauma, but you deal with all kinds of relationship issues, that it's probably a common dynamic to have a couple come in where one person is not just making mistakes, they have patterns of behavior that are really causing alarm and concern to their spouse- their partner, whatever. Um, and that person, in order to try to rescue, fix, help- ... save, they slip into control mode without even realizing it. Talk a little bit about your experience with that dynamic.
JIM CRESS:
Well, as I've said, often our words frame our reality. I love how you positioned the last part of that, that without even realizing it.
JIM:
So there's a sense that I think we're wired for a healthy level of control right down at the end of the fruit of the spirit, which you'll probably talk about later, uh, is self-control. So if I sense something's out of alignment, something where I may just say, "I don't feel safe," why wouldn't a, a person try to control that?
JIM: Where that can obviously become a problem is if I'm overstepping and trying to control, as I've said many times, when I try to control what I cannot control, then I'll end up being controlled, but, uh, w- by what I cannot control. What I don't do is step in and go, "Ah, stop that controlling." Mm. I like to interview their control literally and say, "Tell me more about that."
JIM:
Almost like if control could have a seat at our table, and we interviewed control. We'll find historical data. We'll find data that really matters, and often that anxiety or fear of the future, if I don't control this, then it may, there may be a very bad outcome.
LYSA:
Yeah, and I think a lot of people would say, "Well, I'm not actually trying to control."
JIM:
Right.
LYSA:
"I'm the only one paying attention- Yeah ... to keep the wheels on the bus," right?. Or, "I'm the only one being responsible," or, "If I don't do this, no one else will." "So of course I have to carry this weight." But here's what happens when we carry a weight that was never meant for us to carry.
LYSA:
Anxiety will be our constant companion. Frustration will completely exhaust us, and desperation will perpetuate the lie that it really is my effort that will save the day. And here's what's really tricky about that. We can all be deceived by our own effort to change people or circumstances because, guys, sometimes it works.
LYSA:
So we buy the lie that these behavior modifications, these slightly changed circumstances, that they're evidence that we really are capable of fixing things. But anything we accomplish trying to control situations or trying to control other people will only serve to compound our disappointment when it all falls apart again.
LYSA:
So I think we need to identify what we are all afraid of, and before we jump into that, because we are gonna have some, some confession time, right?
DR JOEL MUDDAMALLE:
Oh, my God.
JIM:
Wow.
LYSA:
I know you guys love confession time.
JOEL:
Oh, you love to get us to confess.
LYSA:
But Joel, there is one verse that when we hear fear and in the context of today's conversation, fear that drives this desire to control, um, I even wrote in my new book, Making Peace With What I Can't Control, that control really is fear disguised as a strength.
LYSA:
But there's this one verse- That when people hear fear, if they've studied the Bible at all, that naturally emerges. And what is that verse?
JOEL:
Yeah, in 2 Timothy 1:7, "For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power, love, and sound judgment." And I don't know about you guys, but do you ever hear that and get annoyed instantly?
LYSA:
I, you know, here's what happens to me is, oh great, do I have a spirit of fear? You know, or I think to myself, "Shame on you, Lysa. You're supposed to be a strong Christian studying the Bible, you know, completely, um, letting the Lord lead your life, and you still really struggle with fear.". So obviously, that means I'm doing something wrong.
LYSA:
And so all these things combined with that feeling of fear can really make me down sometimes.
JOEL:
Yeah, I mean, I think one of the things that has absolutely changed the way that I think about the Bible and theology for... I mean, how long have we been doing this, you guys? For so many years now- ... is the deep conviction that, and I've said this so often, I'll think I'll continue to say it, um, is that a theology that is unlivable is unhelpful.
JOEL:
And so what could end up happening is you have a verse found in the Bible in 2 Timothy, and Paul is writing to somebody he really loves, and Timothy's dealing with a pastoral situation that is really difficult. And Timothy himself has a very complicated background. There's some scholarship and debate over the question of where Timothy's father was.
JOEL:
Um, we know that Timothy was raised by a mom and a grandmother, and so there's a strong female presence in his life. And yet, w- with a little bit of educated speculation, you begin to wonder what kind of father wounds he has. And then the very specific role that Paul steps into to kind of help, um, any anxiety and frustration and just doubt that Timothy is dealing with as he's called to this important task to pastor this church.
JOEL:
And, um, and then it's like, wait a minute, but then w- to your point, Lysa, like what happens when we actually feel fear? Like, are we fai- failures? Do we not trust God? Or this is how I think about it, and this is my nerdy part of my theology brain. It goes, well, for God has not given us a spirit of fear.
JOEL:
So does that mean, like, maybe God didn't give us a spirit of fear did, but did I catch it somehow? You know? Like, you can catch a cold or something. Like, what did I do to create this inside of me? And it's really important for us to read the Bible in its entire context and not just look at a single verse out of context.
JOEL:
And when you have a, a verse like this where it talks about fear, we have to actually ask our questions, what is the purpose of fear? Is, is Paul here saying that God wants us to never experience fear, or is there a kind of fear that is going to actually be self-destructive for us. Because this kind of fear leads us away from dependence on God, and it leads into deeper self-dependence on ourselves.
JOEL:
And then simultaneously, you have a, a really difficult reality where it's like there are other passages of scripture throughout Proverbs that says, um, the beginning of knowledge is what?
LYSA:
The fear of the Lord
JOEL:
... fear of God. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom and knowledge, right? So it's like, wait a minute, what are we actually supposed to fear here? I think something that will actually help us is doing a little bit of biblical theology, and this is going to actually get us to, I think, our confession moment a little bit here. And this is in Isaiah 11. And Isaiah is a prophet of the Old Testament.
JOEL:
He's referred to as one of the major prophets. Um, you know, that's because the Book of Isaiah is a large book. It's not because he's much more grand in importance than anybody else. But he is important because one of the things that Isaiah does for us is called, um, these messianic prophecies that he gives us, and Isaiah 11 is one of them.
JOEL:
And this is the messianic prophecy of the branch of Jesse. And so we know that Jesse is the father of David and, um, you know, you have the line of King Jesus that comes from the line of David. And this is what Isaiah 11:2-3 says. I think this is amazing. It says, "The Spirit of the Lord will rest on him." And notice what 2 Timothy says.
JOEL:
Well, God has not given us a spirit of fear. Well, what is Isaiah saying? "The Spirit of the Lord will rest on him, the spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the spirit of counsel and of might, the spirit of the knowledge and the fear," period? No. The spirit of the knowledge and the fear of the Lord.
JOEL:
So look at the aim and the direction of where f- fear or awe and reverence, I think, is the better translation of that word, is pointed towards. And the response is verse 3, "And he will delight in the fear of the Lord." And then I love this, "He will not judge by what he sees with his eyes or decide by what he hears with his ears."
JOEL:
And so here you have a kind of fear that is actually supposed to prompt you and I into deeper dependence on God and to recognize our human limitations for what they are, and in that spot, learn to depend more and more on King Jesus. And then honestly, what I love about this is, obviously, this is referring to Jesus in the New Testament, but what does Jesus promise?
JOEL:
Jesus promises us a Paraclete or a helper who will come. It's necessary for Jesus to leave, so the Spirit of God comes to us. So this very same spirit, the Spirit of, of God, the Spirit of Christ, that rests on Jesus in the incarnation, is the same spirit that indwells us. So I believe that we can make a theological bridge here of saying this spirit that rested on Jesus is the same spirit that indwells in us.
JOEL:
So what is this spirit doing for us? The Spirit is leading us to wisdom and understanding. Mm. It's giving us counsel. It's teaching us how to be mighty in the Lord, and it's giving us knowledge and pointing us to fear and honor, reverence of the Lord. And it's teaching us not to discern or not to live by purely what we see with our eyes or what we hear with our ears which probably gets us into a little bit of honest confession on the things that we see with our eyes or we hear with our ears that start to spin us out of this fear of, "Wait, can I control this or not?"
LYSA:
That's right. Such a good explanation. It kind of gives me this word picture as you were talking that my heart is gonna be open and pulling in something, right?
LYSA:
So am I pulling in the Spirit of the Lord that gives me the wisdom and all that you just talked about, or am I pulling in and kind of clinging onto the spirit of fear allowing fear to come in and be consuming. And I, it's almost like there's only so much space here. There's only so much focus.
LYSA:
There's only so much attention. So the more I'm concentrating or being consumed by my fears, the less I'm clinging to the Lord. Um, but it's hard.
JIM:
Yes, it is.
LYSA:
So l- here's our confession time. I'm gonna read some fears that drive our desire to control, and I just want you guys to tell me which ones you feel like you resonate with the most.
LYSA:
Okay. So we have a fear of rejection, abandonment, or not being loved. Okay, so think about that one. Fear of betrayal, mistrust, or manipulation. Fear of loss. That could be a loss of people, things, identity, even loss of peace. Fear of inadequacy, um, or being exposed in some way, being vulnerable past what we're comfortable with.
LYSA:
Fear of being helpless and fear of suffering, and that could be emotional or physical, and it could even be, you know, pain or even mortality. So as I read that list what, what's your top one or two? And I'm looking at you first, Joel.
JOEL:
I know, I'm-
JIM:
You want me to go first and bail you out?
JOEL:
No, no, I'm, I'm fine. I just was, like, lasered in on me. Um, so I think I know, I know for sure the two-
LYSA:
I have in my notes, "Turn to Joel."
JOEL:
Oh, my gosh. Um, I, I would say for sure rejection. I think fear of rejection or abandonment I think is a pretty, pretty massive one for me. Um, and the other one, yeah, this could ... You guys are gonna probably laugh about this.
JOEL:
This is, like, total transparency moment. It's inadequacy. Um, I have this reoccurring nightmare. You guys are gonna laugh so hard. I have this reoccurring nightmare that I'm out in public and somebody sees me drinking coffee or, you know, at an airport walking around, and they go, "Hey, Dr. Joel, could you, um, just tell me what does John 3:16 say?"
JOEL:
And I blank, y'all. I blank. I'm like Uh, I don't know. And then they go, "He's a fraud." Like, this dude is an actual fraud. And so that for me for sure has been, um, and obviously deeply rooted in childhood, you know, inadequacy and, and concerns that I have. But those two things, rejection, abandonment, and then, um, for sure inadequacy are my biggest ones.
LYSA:
And so then as those sometimes play out, where do you see that then you step in to overcompensate and try to, like make those fears not be so intense? Yeah. Like, tell me a controlling action that could often spin from that.
JOEL:
So what I didn't realize, I didn't think at the outset that this was an act of control, but it is. I'm learning through therapy and, um, yeah, through therapy. Is that my, I, I deal with my fear of rejection, um, by being an avoider of conflict. And so I think if I can control the presence of conflict or not, this happens all the time in, in my marriage or with my kids, I think, well, I can control the relationship and I won't disappoint them.
JOEL:
And if I don't disappoint them by confronting or, you know, dialoguing something, I can just keep peace, you know? Um, and I don't have to worry about somebody abandoning me. And then the inadequacy piece for sure is, like, I just study. I just read. Like, I just, I'm just like, I will never be caught off guard.
JOEL:
I had a very early moment, I wrote about in my book, The Hidden Peace, where my earliest childhood memory is of being laughed at at pr- I was probably like four years old in a private Christian school. I had just immigrated from India. I was born in the Chicagoland area, lived a couple years in India.
JOEL:
My first language is Telugu, and I came back to school and could not speak a lick of English. And, um, the teacher asked me a question, I only knew the word dog, and I said, "Dog," for the rest of the day, and the kids just laughed at me. You know? Oh. Like, kinda just made me feel horrible. Yeah. And I remember going home thinking at that young age, like, "I will never be put in that situation ever again."
JOEL:
Like, I will al- either always be the smartest person in a room, or I'll be witty enough to spin the entire thing and, and make fun of somebody else so I don't have to be the one who is made fun of. And so my inadequacy is dealt with trying to achieve and perform.
LYSA:
Which achievement is not a bad thing.
JOEL:
Right.
LYSA:
Studying is not a bad thing. But when the motivation behind it is, you know, I've gotta do this almost to an obsessive amount, then that's where it can get a little out of control.
JOEL:
Yeah.
LYSA:
Isn't it so interesting the very things that we try to control are often the very things in our lives that get out of control?
JOEL:
100%.
LYSA:
All right, Jim, confession.
JIM:
I have to speak, then I'll confess. Um, even before we taped, as you know, you were, and as we really do as a team here, we're very vulnerable about some things. And super just applaud and proud of you for the real vulnerability.
JIM:
Um, and I thought, thinking of me too, I cannot out-study- Or out-ChatGPT my, uh, ChatGPT my inadequacy. Because there is a real sense of I can learn more and do more. Um, this is a twist on scripture and it applies to me, too. The Bible says, right, "They are ever learning but never coming to the knowledge of the truth." So I think there, there's really no external solution for our internal problem which ties into mine. I just love the way you set that up.
JIM:
Uh, ditto would be the short answer. Those are my top two. To restate, uh, fear of rejection, abandonment, and not being loved, and the fear of inadequacy or vulnerability. To speak very succinctly to both of those, the fear of rejection and abandonment, not being loved, children get abandoned, adults get left.
JIM:
A, a- an adult cannot... We're not talking about elderly people, but an adult, my adult Jim cannot be abandoned. So that, those words again frame a reality. And the rejection, I'm going to go vertical as Nehemiah did time and time again and say, "What is God's truth for my problem or my fear?" And I don't shame myself, much as I'm tempted to, to say, "Well, good night, man.
JIM:
You call yourself a Christian." But I have too many Bible verses to mention at that moment and to say, "Who is my identity in Christ? Who am I?" And I give myself permission- Dear viewer, dear listener, I give myself permission to feel rejected, abandoned, and not being loved, but I gotta speak truth over that.
JIM:
The how do I deal with the fear of inadequacy and vulnerability, the same thing of saying, "Who is my identity?" And this is a thing I've used for years. I don't any longer choose to run from my inadequacy or hide from it. I embrace my inadequacy. I wanna step in and say, "Well, of course I'm feeling inadequate around this," and then I'll interview my inadequacy, like what might be out of alignment in my life spiritually, relationally, or emotionally, but I'm not gonna run from my inadequacy anymore.
LYSA:
That's really, really good. Thank you for sharing that. Okay, so mine definitely have to be the fear of betrayal, mistrust, or manipulation. Um, based on, you know, the significant decade of my life where that was happening on a very consistent basis from someone that I thought I could entrust my life to, you know.
LYSA:
Um, so I think some of that still entangles, because I th- sometimes in my mind I'll think, "If that person broke my trust, then it's only a matter of time where this person is or this person is." And I, I had to come to the understanding that humans are not perfect. They w- they, they will break your trust.
LYSA:
They will.
JIM:
Pretty predictable.
LYSA:
Very predictable. And so I've really had to work on accepting that fact and not holding someone accountable when they make a mistake that breaks my trust as if they were had this massive pattern- ... of deception in my life. So I have to really work on that.
LYSA:
Like I c- I need to give grace for a mistake of broken trust, and we can repair that, right? But sometimes I will experience a mistake by someone else and treat it as if it's this epic betrayal when it's really not. I also have this fear of being taken advantage of, which I think fits in this category, too.
LYSA:
Um, and then of course I relate to both of you sharing fear of rejection, abandonment, or not being loved. Sometimes I find myself- Thinking of transactional things with relationships. You know? Like, okay, if I do this and this and this, then this person will, you know, feel very secure in our relationship.
LYSA:
I'll feel secure in our relationship. And so, and, and sometimes I'm just, like, doing kind things for people, right? But sometimes I have this thought. Like, I don't want them to take from me the safety and security of this relationship. And I get afraid of disappointing them, of not pleasing them, of not meeting up to their standards, because then they really might shun me for a season or walk away completely.
JIM:
Which is, they really might.
LYSA:
They really might.
JIM:
So all people will... But it's like, no, they really might. Yeah. And you've described a real linear recipe theology or recipe therapy that says maybe the linear A plus B equals C if I do these things. That's not a bad thought to have some linear thinking, but we're talking about control and letting that go and say, "I still wanna show up as I can, as healthy as I can, and these other people get to show up as unhealthy as they can."
LYSA:
Right. I think the biggest place, though, that control comes out for me is this fear of other people doing things that not only are they gonna suffer the consequences but I'm gonna suffer the consequences too. That's right. Because I care about them and I love them, and when they hurt, I hurt.
LYSA:
And so that's where I can really see my control coming up, and I don't even call it control. Right. I call it trying to help them, fix them, change them for the good. It- I'm not trying to do something bad. I'm not trying to do something harmful. It's quite the opposite. I really am trying to help them, and the more they refuse that help or the more they resist the change or the more they just continue on this dogmatic path, that I can look into the future and I can see there's a train barreling toward you.
LYSA:
And when it runs over you, it's gonna deeply affect and impact me. And so that's when I'll have these moments of fear that almost feel like panic. You know? Yeah. Sure. And it is okay for us to have conversations with people. Is it okay if I say, "Hey, Jim, this situation in your life, I can see something that maybe you're missing, you know, are you open to a thought?"
LYSA:
Right? Are you open to a thought?
JIM:
Good thought.
LYSA:
'Cause that's what Jim taught, taught me. If I'm gonna have a hard conversation with someone, you know, are you open to a thought? But if I see you, like, continuing down this path of the very opposite of what I see, and it's, it's almost like you don't even see the train, and so I feel so compelled to just keep going back and keep going back.
LYSA:
But the reality is, if you don't make that choice for yourself, ultimately, I can share my thoughts- I can give my best wisdom and advice, I can pray for you, but ultimately, I'm not gonna be able to climb on top of those train tracks and pull you off, uh, again and again and again
JIM:
You could try, right, at one level. And I'm mindful, I borrow this so Joel understands this, and you both would. I borrow in my counseling practice a lot Ezekiel chapter 3 and Ezekiel 33. Say, where are you going with that? The watchman on the wall, that I am up there, I understand it's Old Covenant, although I said I borrow this, which is to say my job, it set me free as a therapist to work with people, that my job is to warn.
JIM:
It says if you see someone going down a bad path in their sin and you don't, you don't warn them as a watchman or watchwoman on the wall, and they die in their sin, their blood will be on your hands. But if you see them going down a bad path and you do warn them and they die in their sin, their blood will not be on your hands.
JIM:
And I just borrow the metaphor of saying it has really set me free that, like you've said, are you open to a thought? It's really dicey with, with our kids or if it's with your spouse, right? And to say, here's something dicey, to literally, like, say here... I use it in my office all the time with my Keurig to say, "Here is coffee if you want it.
JIM:
There are several types of coffee in the pods, but I'm not gonna get up and make your coffee. If you want it, it's available." Here's something I see, and we know with trauma, and let's just be honest, with sin a lot of times even, having eyes to see, they do not see, having ears to hear, they do not hear, that there is a reality.
JIM:
It's not even sometimes maybe they don't hear or see the danger, they don't. And that's hard to sit by with people we love. Remember compassion that we have, if it goes too far, can turn into codependency. And to say what goes on in my internal world when I see people like this is clear they're making a bad choice or choices here, and for me to offer a word and to stand back and let them have their process. That's hard. It's hard for me to do.
LYSA:
One of the hardest words, uh, that I've ever had to use with my adult children is okay. That's a really hard word. After I share my wisdom, but knowing ultimately they've got to I mean, they will make their own decisions, and when they've made that decision, what complicates is that I'm taking 50-year-old wisdom- and applying it to a 20-year-old situation, right? That's brilliant. And they're, they're bringing 20-year-old wisdom into it. But if they are determined, they are adults they are living their own adult life, then at the end I just have to say, ""Okay."
JOEL:
You know what's so fascinating about what you just said, Lysa, is you can apply that exact same thing theologically with our relationship with God when it comes to control, right? So, like, we could go around this table and go 40-year wisdom, and you know, or we could say how many years that w- we've been on this earth, and then it's like here we are in our limited understanding of the world and reality, and we come into these situations with our perspective of control
JOEL:
because we wanna keep ourselves safe. And then here's an infinite, eternal, preexistent God who actually has true sovereignty and actual control, and it's like in that, what does God often say for us? He goes, "Okay." He says, "Okay." Right? He doesn't overpower us, he doesn't dema- Like, he gives us his wisdom, right here.
JOEL:
He gives us the Spirit of God, the people of God, the Word of God, and then he goes, "Okay." Mm. So there's something, uh, I think that we can learn from our Heavenly Father even in light of that.
LYSA:
Absolutely. Well, I do wanna equip you as we wrap up this episode with something to do when you feel that feeling of fear.
LYSA:
And it could be fear of all those things that we had confession over or it could be like I just described, fear of someone else making a choice. Um, whatever that feeling of fear is, it's like it feels like the feeling of fear is so instantaneous that there's nothing we can do about it. It's like we feel full-fledged fear.
LYSA:
Now, I did some research on this, and I found something very, very interesting. Fear can actually be broken into four components making up that feeling of fear. Now, obviously you feel afraid, you're not gonna go, "Okay, here I enter into the first component of fear, and now I will transition to the second."
LYSA:
No, but like you taught me, Jim, we prepare in times of strength for coming times of weakness or struggle, right?
JIM:
That's right. Yeah.
LYSA:
And so before we feel that feeling of fear, if there is something that we know, hey, there's a high likelihood I'm gonna get triggered in this fear then we can do some work before the intensity of those feelings happen.
LYSA:
So here are the four components of that feeling of fear. The first one is the alert or the alarm. That one's gonna happen, and there's nothing we can do about it. Like something happens, and we instantly feel alert or alarm. And I think probably part of it is, like you've taught me, Jim, our brains are wired for the confidence of knowing.
LYSA:
So our brain is kind of scanning, am I safe, am I safe? Is this good? Is this good? Is this predictable? Is this under control? You know, all of that. And so when something disrupts that, that feeling of alert or alarm, natural. Nothing you can do about it, right? The next two components are where we can do some work.
LYSA:
The second component is perception. How am I perceiving what's happened? And often we will pull into what the third component is, and that's memory. So memory and perception are kind of working together to interpret how significant that alert or alarm is or how, um, how we, like, we may interpret the alert or alarm.
LYSA:
Other people may not be made afraid by that same thing, but we are made afraid. And often it's because our brains will automatically go to, when is another time that I have felt this feeling? And whatever our perception is about that feeling will be the perception of right now. We'll pull it right in.
JIM:
Right. That's happening, as you know, we all know, like that. It's instant. I mean, it's, you think, well, I'd like to... Like the sloth on Zootopia. Do you know that movie? The sloth, and it's like that's not how it works.
LYSA:
That's right.
JIM:
It's just like... Right.
LYSA:
That's why we've gotta really concentrate on this before the feeling of fear comes.
JIM:
That's right.
JOEL:
Right.
LYSA:
And so what has helped me so much, and let me give you the fourth one. The fourth one is obviously the response or reaction. But I think these two, memory and perception, are so crucial. That's where we can do some story work. That's where we can go back and revisit some of those old memories that's feeding a perception about a fear that may not be true. So I'll unpack one just in my own life.
LYSA:
So when I feel afraid now, like relationally, like let's say my husband Chaz says something or does something, is very innocent- But it instantly creates some fear in me, and so chances are my memory will do this. I know this probably isn't worst-case scenario, but a lot of my past 10 years have played out in worst-case scenario, so there could be a high likelihood that this is worst-case scenario.
LYSA:
So then my perception is this is not a small thing, and I will make something big out of something small because I'm chasing it all the way down to worst-case scenario, rather than just dealing with the size that it actually is in front of me.
JIM:
Even as you say that, I could literally feel, both in me and watching you, the neurons firing- which are, both the neurons that, that fire together, wire together. So it's like, like that so fast, and you're not even making it happen-
LYSA:
Right
JIM:
.. at that moment, yeah.
LYSA:
And then that will determine, that perception and memory, you know, whatever perception I'm bringing into this, that will determine whether I'm able to respond or whether I'm gonna react to a high level when this isn't actually like that significant, you know? And so I think in doing memory work, it would be wise for us to say, like you have taught us very, very well, you say it often, "When it is hysterical, it's historical." So if you are having an out of proportion reaction to this trigger of fear, this alert, this alarm, it's really good to take some time to consider going back.
LYSA:
Where is this coming from? Where is a memory? You did it earlier, you know? You said, "When I was four..." You know, traveled all the way back. When I was four, and it fed that, that feeling of being, you know, made fun of. Fed that, that memory. Fed a perception in you that now very much leads you to control when you feel that feeling of fear.
LYSA:
That was a great example.
JIM:
It was.
LYSA:
And I think we can all share examples. But Jim, how do you help people do this? How do you help them revisit some of those memories and- Course correct a perception
JIM:
Well, is there, m- mind if I, you guys mind if I say something that is accurate that we talked about earlier today?
JIM:
Joel, you good? You trust me on this? Seriously.
JOEL:
Always.
JIM:
All three of us on this table have done a trauma egg. Is that true or not true?
LYSA:
Yes.
JOEL:
That is true, my friend.
JIM:
That's, that's just your life story in pictures. Dr. Bessel van der Kolk, one of the lead voices in, in, uh, in trauma, says trauma has to be healed experientially, which is why we do that trauma egg, and it's called developing what we call emotional literacy.
JIM:
Now, don't be afraid of the term. It is just I'd be able to have words and pictures like we've all three done. As you say, well, instead of just telling me the story, anything you can tell me, you can show me. So drawing these little pictures. Somebody might have a story of a precious person who died or a pet who died in, in youth, and they'll draw that little picture, and the emotions come up.
JIM:
So we're talking about doing our story work on a very basic level, and if it is, I know we could get lost in this simple little quote if it's hysterical. It's historical, is do your own story work even... I tell all the women at Haven Place this, so we all three that are, that ministry we have, is get on a napkin at Starbucks or Panera Bread and write out, "Here are the top 10 really hard or impactful things that happened in my childhood."
JIM:
That's the fact, and then what is the impact? What did it do to me? Because most people are never coming to therapy. It's really part of your vision of why we have therapy and theology. And they're not gonna come do an intensive with me. That's a higher level or go somewhere else to do it. So doing your level of story work when you begin, it's so beautiful.
JIM:
When you begin to bump into something, you go, "I normally would have reacted," remember reaction is re-doing an action from my past. And now I've responded. I took a breath. I stopped for a moment. The limbic brain's wanting to fire at 100 miles an hour, and I stop, and I go, "Oh, I know what this is." So in my life story, thus the word trauma egg, I don't want to think I'm in my life story or in my trauma egg.
JIM:
That's too global. I want to know, now where am I? At what age? And then we'll ask people in therapy, "How old do you feel right now?" Almost every time they'll go there and say, "I feel about four." Follow-up question: What happened around age four? So that level of doing the story work and understanding, which you've alluded to, the neurobiology and what's going on in the brain and thus in my body.
JIM:
Yes, the body keeps the score. When I get aware of that, or I, I can have a moment of- Really of serenity to say, "I think I know what this is about right now."
LYSA:
That's so good. And for those that don't know what a trauma egg is and have never... They may be going, "What is a trauma egg?" It's where you take a big piece of poster board, you draw an egg shape, you divide that egg into little square components from your earliest memory all the way up to present-day life. Those individual squares that cover the egg, making up that shape, um, those are stick figure pictures that you draw of scenes or situations in your life where you felt abused, neglected, rejected, um, and had some kind of traumatic event, maybe a loss, like you mentioned a loss of a pet, whatever it is.
LYSA:
And then you draw those stick figure pictures that go all the way up, earliest childhood to present day, and then you get with somebody and you tell the story. You tell about each of those components. And what they're listening for are a thread or commonality throughout those stories that could help you identify not only you're covering memory, but also what were the perceptions that you carried from those memories that could be feeding the intensity of the fear that you're feeling right now.
JIM:
And that is all laid out in Surviving an Unwanted Divorce. I got to write that part of it, where literally everything you'd want to know about how to do a trauma egg. Take it to your therapist or coach or good friend. It's all in Surviving an Unwanted Divorce. You could see it all laid out. It's really simple to do.
JIM:
It might bring up a lot of feelings for you, but it's not that complex.
JOEL:
It's a really interesting thing because, you know, for the first time listening and talking, I'm gonna say something I haven't even talked to you guys about right now, which is always a little dangerous, but I think there's a trust here.
JOEL:
Um, you're talking so much about story, and for me, the Bible came alive when I realized that the Bible was a story. It's a story of a good dad who loves his family and he wants to have them back together. And we talk about rips and repairs and rejections and reaffirmations and, like, that's what all of this is filled with-
JOEL:
is a significant series of rips that humanity created, and then God's determination to not just repair it, but then to reaffirm His love for us. And He does that through His Son Jesus. And I can't help but think about, like, the, these trauma eggs that each of us have done. And there's a part of me that goes, well, what if we took, like, the people of Israel and laid them down and did their trauma egg, right?
JOEL:
So you do their trauma egg-
JIM:
Fascinating
JOEL:
... and you've got rules, roles, or, you know, mom, dad, the whole deal and the, and the thing. Then you take the life of Jesus, and most New Testament scholars identify that Jesus is actually reenacting the story of Israel. So Egypt, Jesus did. Wilderness, Jesus did.
JOEL:
Crossing a red sea that got parted, Jesus one-ups that and walks on the wa- on the water, you know? It's like every part Jesus reenacts. And you go, you lay His traumas that He experienced on top of that trauma egg, and you go, "Oh, there's the faithfulness of Jesus.” And so here are all these things that often for me make me feel like I'm out of control.
JOEL:
Like, the more I try to control these things, the more out of control I feel. And then you have the faithfulness of Jesus. And there's a passage in, um, Philippians, in Philippians 4, and it's one of those passages, again, that I get a little bit annoyed at, uh- ... because everybody likes to pick up at Philippians 4:6.
JOEL:
"Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving, let your request be made known to God. And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts, then your minds in Christ Jesus." To which I say, good for you, Paul, and good for you-
JOEL:
church in Philippi, but y'all don't know the mess that I'm living in right now because there ain't-
LYSA:
Exactly
JOEL:
... no peace right now. It is chaotic. And a pro-tip ab- about the Bible, the Bible wasn't originally written with chapters and verses. And sometimes it messes with us 'cause we think that that narrative starts in verse six.
JOEL:
But if you actually look closely, there is a semicolon that's right before that. And, and right before "Do not be anxious," it says, "The Lord is at hand."
LYSA:
Or in NIV it says, "The Lord is near."
JOEL:
Or the, it, yeah, the, the Lord is near. Um, and I just, I love that because it's, it's actually what the text is saying is, "Don't ever experience anxiety."
JOEL:
It's actually saying, "In the midst of your anxiety, right, in the midst of this, in the midst of your trauma egg, in the midst of the things that you cannot control and even the very best that you can, um, there is something that you have an ability to do. And what is that thing? To be aware of the nearness of God and to go to him in prayer and in petition and in supplication and, um, trust in the faithfulness of Jesus.
JIM:
Amen.
LYSA:
Thank you, Joel. That's really good. Well, it's time for us to wrap up this episode. We have a lot more to say about control, but as you can see, you know, we start with this, this word control, and we kinda break it down, control tendencies, and we break it down to it's not, the core is not usually power, it's fear.
LYSA:
And then we break it down into the things that we fear, and then we break it down all the way into childhood memories and perceptions that we're carrying. And you may think, "That's a lot of depth for my control issues."
JOEL:
And we talked about Jesus' trauma egg. We sure did. Like, wow. We sure did. But here's the, here's the truth.
LYSA:
Control is something that we all need to pay attention to. Um, we're all susceptible to it, and it makes perfect sense to me why we are. If we're caring people, if we're responsible people, if we want things done right, if we want the best for those that we love, it makes so much sense that our compassion, our care, our concern can be taken to the point where we wanna try to take control so that it would be for the good of them and the good of us.
LYSA:
It makes perfect sense to me. And so yes, control has a lot of layers that need to be peeled back and examined. As we often say here at Therapy and Theology, we're not gonna tell you what to think, but we're gonna give you a lot to think about, and I hope that today's show will make us all think a little bit more about our controlling tendencies.
LYSA:
You're gonna wanna make sure to stay tuned for episode two of this series because we're gonna tackle the question, when is it us just being responsible versus us being controlling? You're not gonna wanna miss it. Thank you.
SHAE:
And now it's time for listener mail, where we respond to your questions. Today's listener mail is brought to you by Compassion International, which I'm so excited to tell you more about. Compassion is fighting child poverty in powerful, practical ways. Through the work of local churches and the generosity of sponsors like you and me, Compassion is releasing children from poverty in Jesus' name.
SHAE:
We've seen the impact of sponsorship firsthand through education, medical care, healthy food, clean water, and the love and hope of the Gospel. And now we want to invite you to join us in sponsoring a child. When you sponsor, you'll receive a copy of the Proverbs 31 Ministries study guide titled Keep Holding On as our thank you for investing in the life of a child. Go to compassion.com/Lysa to choose a child to sponsor today.
SHAE:
Okay, friends, let's hear today's question. This listener says, "How can I correctly interpret Psalm 37:4? 'Delight yourself in the Lord and He will give you the desires of your heart.'" I'm gonna pass it off to Dr. Joel Muddamalle to answer this question.
JOEL:
Psalm 37:4 really needs to be read in total context, and often when I read Psalm 37:4 my eyes and my heart are drawn to that last part of the phrase which says, "He will give you the desires of your heart." And let's just be honest. How many of us just want all of our heart's desires to be met? And that's so human and honest.
JOEL:
And yet the way the psalmist phrases this is by a precedent, and the precedent is to take delight in the Lord. And so it's actually about heart affection and orientation and a correction to our wayward hearts. And so there is a pretty important Latin phrase, homo incurvatus in se, which just means the heart curved in upon itself.
JOEL:
And when the heart is curved in upon itself, it takes delight in selfish ambition, in vain conceit, and the things of the world that promise satisfaction but honestly only deliver a bunch of pain and heartache. But instead the psalmist says, "Hey, when you and I take delight in the Lord, our hearts move from being bent or prone inward and are reoriented towards the things of God, which means our very desires will be shaped by the desires of God, and God will give us the desires that He longs for us to have."
JOEL:
Namely, and most important amongst all the things, is a desire to be part of the household of God, to experience the love of God through Jesus Himself, and to, uh, return into the household of God. And so, um, it's not saying that we're gonna get everything we want, like Jesus is Santa Claus and we get, um, all of our gifts that we ask for.
JOEL:
But it's saying that our hearts are gonna be conformed into longing for and desiring the very things that God Himself longs for and desires. And honestly, that is infinitely better for you and I than our limited perspective on what we think we want in this world, which will at the end of the day always fail us.
JOEL:
But the Lord, He never does.