Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
On the WorkWell Podcast, Jen Fisher — Human Sustainability Leader at Deloitte and Editor-at-Large, Human Sustainability at Thrive Global — sits down with inspiring individuals for wide-ranging conversations about how we can develop a way of living and working built on human sustainability, starting with ourselves.
Jen Fisher:
All right. It looks like we are recording. So, Morra, welcome to the show.
Morra Aarons-Mele:
Hey, Jen.
Jen Fisher:
It's so good to have you finally on the show. I feel like we've been talking about it forever.
Morra Aarons-Mele:
We have. We have, but it's great to be here.
Jen Fisher:
All good things come to those who wait, that's my motto. So, Morra, I want the listeners to get to know you. Tell us who you are, tell us your story, and then, you know, obviously we're gonna be talking about mental health in the workplace and kind of how you became passionate about that in your own life.
Morra Aarons-Mele:
Yeah. I always joke that I'm an anxious leader who's managed lots of anxious teams and that's why I do the work I do. But you know, I don't know if this happened to you, but I have a sort of, you know, a day job. I'm trained as a marketer, and actually I worked in digital marketing sort of in the beginning of the first.com boom and hone my skills and ended up in politics. And really you know, now that I look back on it, did some pretty pioneering work on how to use internet marketing and blogging, which we now call influencer marketing and digital content to really move hearts and minds to get issues voted on, candidates elected and behavior change when it comes to public health, for example. And that was sort of my day job, but in my role as an observer, I really thought, gosh, so many people are unhappy at work and we're kind of messy at work, but we never talk about it.
Morra Aarons-Mele:
You know, I knew that I often felt so anxious before meetings that I would just hide in the bathroom and feel like I couldn't breathe. I knew that there was so much unspoken emotion and acting out of behaviors because we couldn't talk about it. And I just got really curious and I thought, gosh, there has to be a better way. And I actually started studying leadership and work redesign and how to build flexibility into work and all this really nitty gritty stuff. And really, my passion is helping people work in the way that suits them, given their life stage, given their temperament, given their neurodivergence, your mental health, you name it. Really helping people make work, work for them, because we're good at our jobs. It's just that all the other stuff gets in the way.
Jen Fisher:
Yeah. I mean, that resonates with me on so many levels. I don't even know where to go with that, so I'm just we're talking about these things more and more in the workplace, but I do still feel like it's hard to talk openly about our mental health or our struggles or our needs. Like you said, I still feel like there's a lot of people talking about it. There's still a lot of people that are afraid are scared. I mean, what are you seeing? Like, are you seeing that starting to change? Is it changing in certain ways, but not in others? Like, what's the landscape look like?
Morra Aarons-Mele:
I mean, you and I have talked about this, right? Yeah. I think it's, it's really varied because our mental health literacy, our acceptance of mental health is very personal, and it's very dependent on lots of factors, like how old we are, how we were raised, or, you know, where we were born, what religion we were raised. Like this stuff is really, really tied in to long held beliefs and stories that we tell ourselves. And so, when it comes to talking about mental health at work, we bring all of our stuff and our baggage around mental health in our lives. And therefore, some people are very comfortable with it, and some people are horrified by it and everywhere in between. And so part of what we have to understand as people who are trying to implement change, is this stuff is messy and it is hard to talk about. And that's okay. We have to really meet people where they're at and also I think, find a common language for people to use. So it's not as hard.
Jen Fisher:
Yeah. I think that's so important and powerful. I mean, I probably learn this from you. I often tell people that these conversations may always be uncomfortable for you on some level, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be having them. And so how do we prepare people and leaders and colleagues and just other human beings to sit with somebody and to have these conversations and quite frankly, not feel like we have to fix it for them because we can't fix it for them. Isn't that right?
Morra Aarons-Mele:
You're getting all the snaps now, Jen.
Morra Aarons-Mele:
Right? And it's our, it's so funny. I was literally, I was just doing like a training video this morning, and I said like, when you're in a difficult conversation, especially around mental health, your natural inclination may be the exact opposite of what you should do , right? Because you may be feeling like you just wanna talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, and solve things. You may feel like you just want to give someone a million ideas so that they know what to do. Right? You might wanna be super empathetic and say, I'm gonna fix this for you. You know, we got this, and none of that may be true. And so we as leaders really need to learn how to have what Krista typic calls spacious conversations. Yeah. Where we stop, you know, telling people what to do and over empathizing and doing all the things and just having uncomfortable space.
Jen Fisher:
And that to me is such a, like, it's a skillset that we can learn, but that we're not taught as a leadership skillset, right? Like, as a leader, we are taught to, you know, dive in and fix things. Like that's what we do. But these, you know, the times we're in and the topic that we're talking about re related to mental health is, you know, to your point is kind of calling on us to do the exact opposite. So how does somebody, like, how do we develop these skills to have these conversations, to get more comfortable having these conversations? Like, what, in your mind, I know that's the work you do. So what does that look like?
Morra Aarons-Mele:
Yeah. And if you ask my husband, he would say, I'm really bad at it.
Jen Fisher:
Yeah. You know, our spouses they don't always know.
Morra Aarons-Mele:
You never listen to me. You're always trying to fix me, right? Because the point is that this stuff is so universal. I mean, I always like to joke and it sounds self-congratulatory. I don't mean it that way, that like, anything I might teach you or talk about is useful in your whole life, no matter whether you're talking about mental health or not. Right? Because these are really basic and, but life changing skills and, you know, I think it's twofold. The first is if you're gonna have difficult conversations with your team in any space, but especially around mental health, is you have to understand your own attitudes about mental health. You have to understand how does anxiety show up for me? What triggers me? Right? Is it my inclination as someone who is always trying to fix things and make things better and solve people's problems?
Morra Aarons-Mele:
'Cause like, that's what I've always been rewarded for. Is that my inclination? And is that just my anxiety talking? Right? So it's, it's sort of self-awareness about your habits and how you react in situations and how mental health shows up for you at work. And then the second piece is really, really practicing taking space and time, not reacting, responding, right? It's sort of basic mindfulness. And the best trick question, sort of hack I have for a manager who's working on this stuff was from my friend Daisy OJ Dominguez, who I think, you know, had her on my podcast. And she said that if she sees someone, and she got this from a coach who's wobbly on her team, who she knows, she's gotta have a vulnerable conversation, she'll say, look, right now, do you want me to listen, witness? Do you want me to help, dive in? Or do you just want me to distract you? Or sort of, you know, get your mind off of it. And that's so powerful because again, a lot of times when we're leaders and we are rewarded for just diving in and fixing things, that's not what someone needs from us. That's actually micromanaging them. As Julia Millner would say. And so just literally practicing setting the stage for that open conversation is so powerful.
Jen Fisher:
Yeah. I love that. And you brought up the, the topic of anxiety and, you know, I think that's how you and I got connected, or how I first learned about you and was immediately attracted 'cause your book is called The Anxious Achiever. And I was like, wow, somebody finally understands me. So, you know, as someone who lives with anxiety and has been very open about it for many reasons, I think the same way you are, you know, I could relate to so much that you talked about in your book. So tell us a little bit more about what an anxious achiever is and kinda how that shows up and impacts us.
Morra Aarons-Mele:
An anxious achiever is someone who lives with anxiety and uses anxiety as a tool often. I mean, I often say that anxiety is both a blessing and a curse. It's a double-edged sword because, you know, those of us who are anxious achievers, either 'cause we're born that way, or something happened in our childhood, or our genetics or our chemistry, who knows, right? There's so many reasons. We can become very skillful at manipulating and negotiating with our anxiety. We may wake up and think, you know what? My boss wants to talk to me today at four. I'm definitely getting fired. I have to and it's 'cause I haven't been working hard enough and I have to work harder. And our brain is kind of a swirl. We're really good at worrying.
Morra Aarons-Mele:
We're really good at overthinking. We're really good at blaming ourselves, but we're also really good at getting things done and using that anxiety as motivational energy to push. The other thing about anxious achievers is that we tend to really thrive on external validation. We tend to really judge success milestones and even like our own self-worth based on feedback that people give us about being smart, wealthy, hardworking, you name it. And so that can create a cycle in us, right? A cycle where we're dependent on those external nods to keep us going. And the fear of not getting that nod fills us with so much anxiety. Like, we would never think about not doing it. And so it's really almost a way of being that for a lot of us is habitual and gets us pretty far until it doesn't. And as you know, when it stops working for you, it can stop pretty hard and it can be pretty painful. And so what I really encourage people to do is I don't judge anxiety and I don't say if it's good or bad, or you should or you shouldn't do this. Is this life serving you? Is this ever present anxiety and the churn and the swirl serving you? Or can you have a better relationship with it?
Jen Fisher:
And so how do we, 'cause you can't see me, but I'm nodding profusely to everything you said. And like I said, when I read your book and I have it dogeared and highlighted, I was like, oh my gosh, oh my gosh, she's in my head. How does she know? So like, what do we do about it if like we say, is this serving me and we decide, or we just inherently know that this is absolutely not serving me? I'll give you an example. You know, speaking about spouses, you know, your example of my boss needing to talk to me at four o'clock today, I will immediately go to, you know, worst case con scenario and then I'm gonna die. You know, it's like there's no in between. And you know, my husband is always like, okay, but what's the real worst case scenario? You know, and has to like, walk me back from it. Yeah. So like, what, what do we do in those moments where we're like, okay, I know this isn't serving me, but my anxiety has taken over and almost paralyzes me in many ways.
Morra Aarons-Mele:
Yeah. You're catastrophizing. Yeah.
Morra Aarons-Mele:
I mean, I'm an amazing catastrophizer. I'm the same. And what you do though is great. You have your husband who is, I mean not probably a hundred percent neutral, but more neutral than you certainly. And he gives you evidence and helps you have a more balanced thought. I mean, the big point that you just made is that a lot of how we react, it's habitual.
Jen Fisher:
Totally.
Morra Aarons-Mele:
It is just what we've been doing for so long that we just do it. You know, I think a lot of imposter feelings are habitual. A lot of what I see around people when they get scared and uncertain and times feel scary at work. So they just dive in and take charge and control everything. That's just habit. That could be something they learned because their childhood was rocky and that's how they learned to survive in their home. And so these things run deep. They don't start from nowhere and they can be habitual. And so the first piece is really knowing that you're doing it and wanting to change and learning how to really break the habit or introduce tools that help you do that.
Jen Fisher:
And what are some of those tools?
Morra Aarons-Mele:
I mean the book is very therapy. Agnostic. I throw in a ton of different modalities from things that have helped me and experts I've interviewed. But I'm a big believer in sort of classic cognitive behavioral therapy techniques because they have been proven to be super effective for anxiety. And I think we should be clear, we're not talking about the kind of anxiety that is landing you in the hospital right now. And I've been there, I'm not judging it. We're talking about anxiety that is annoying, painful, chronic, but is functional. Like, you're functional, you're at work. So that's an important distinction.
Jen Fisher:
And a lot of us, as you say in your book are high achievers. 'cause We've learned to use the anxiety for high achievement. That's right. Even though it may not have served us well all the time.
Morra Aarons-Mele:
Well, and then we achieve and then the anxiety ripples again.
Jen Fisher:
Because then we need to achieve more.
Morra Aarons-Mele:
Right. Or what if we don't, what if we don't achieve again? Will anyone love me? So we're used to that, that heightened state of arousal. I mean, a lot of us just live at 11 all day long and we don't even notice it. And then work reinforces it because our modern digital culture of work really reinforces anxious behavior. And so we can get stuck in a loop. And so we have to break the loop. So I am a huge fan of therapy for all reasons, but I'm a big fan of introducing therapeutic tools that literally help us retrain our brain. Whether that's learning habit switching or a lot of the work that's out there on habits, whether it's like we talked about with your catastrophizing, having a balanced thought and some factual evidence.
Morra Aarons-Mele:
I was just talking to a friend and they really want a job they're up for and it's like all they can think about. And they were like but then these negative thoughts come in and I instantly, I'm like, you don't deserve it. You're, you're such a faker, you're never gonna get it. What do I do? And I said, you just say that's a negative thought. I don't have time for that right now. So a lot of this stuff is, it sounds basic, but it's really hard to do in practice.
Jen Fisher:
Yeah. It definitely is. So I wanna talk about, and you just touched on kind of the modern workplace and a little bit of technology, but first I wanna talk about like, are there known in specific triggers for anxiety? Are they all individual? Like, does it depend on the person? Like what actually triggers anxiety in us?
Morra Aarons-Mele:
All kinds of things trigger it. It is really personal. Yeah. And sometimes it's not a specific thing. One of my favorite sayings about anxiety is you might be living in the past and you might be living in the future, but you're not living in the present. And when anxiety comes upon us, sometimes there is a trigger. Like a classic example is an external threat. Like you're driving and a truck tries to cut you off and you feel fear and then you think, oh God, am I gonna make it the rest of the way home safely? That's anxiety, but it's been literally triggered by the truck cutting you off. Right. It could also be though, pulling in past memories of a car accident. So it's, it's complicated. And then sometimes we feel anxious and we don't know why the sky is blue, things are good, and yet we feel anxious. And so it's important to try to understand your triggers, but it's also not always like trigger response. However, at work, it is so valuable to really spend some time on what could be triggering you. Is it a meeting? Is it a person? Is it a topic, is it an issue? Is it a perceived failure? Devoting the inquiry to that can be so helpful because it's practical, but it also gives us insight into how we work and who we can work with.
Jen Fisher:
Yeah. I love that. And kind of talking about triggers and especially in the workplace or things that perhaps create anxiety for us in the workplace, I mean, we're living in this time of virtual hybrid either way, we're always all connected to our technology devices, whether it's in, you know, our work lives or our personal lives or through social media. Like what impact is modern technology having on anxiety?
Morra Aarons-Mele:
Bad.
Jen Fisher:
I figured you would say that, but tell me why.
Morra Aarons-Mele:
Right. And look, I love digital media. Like my whole career was in digital media. Totally. And so I have a very complex relationship. You know, here's the thing. Work has always been anxiety provoking because people are anxiety provoking and because work is about things that matter to us as humans. It's about status and it's about reward and it's about safety and it's about money and it's about fear of loss. And being liked. All the things. So work has always been as, life has always been a source of anxiety for us. 'cause we're human and we care. And so I don't think that that's anything new. If I had a nickel for everyone I've ever talked to who says, I have a meeting with my boss and we have a really difficult relationship and it's like every Thursday before that meeting, I'm so nauseous.
Morra Aarons-Mele:
I just, I can't sleep the night before and I'm nauseous or I have a migraine. Why? It's like, because you're anxious. Why, why does that person make you so anxious? Do that. But the problem with when we layer digital technology on is that it heightens the response cycle and it heightens our very basic ancient human dopamine seeking behavior in that we may be dealing with our toxic boss on slack. And so not only are we anxious 'cause they're our toxic boss, but we can see the little three dots that they're typing and we're anticipating something crummy coming out of that slack.
Morra Aarons-Mele:
And then we're conditioned. We're just waiting for it. Every time. Like, we've all had this experience, I talk about this all the time, right? You've seen someone's email in your inbox pop up, and before you even have read the email, you're your stomach, you're in knots. You’re so triggered. And digital technology we're like basically waiting to be triggered all day.
Morra Aarons-Mele:
We can't escape it. And so we're just human. Our brains are just, literally, our brains are trying to make us feel better. And so our brain sees that slack and is like threat ahead. And so your body thinks it's about to get eaten by a saber-tooth tiger. It doesn't know that it's just a crappy slack from your boss, but your threat response is triggered and your body goes into activation and arousal.
Jen Fisher:
So what do we do about it? I mean, 'cause technology's not going away. And for most of us, we have to continue working and we're not always going to be best friends with the people that we work with. So there's realities of the life and the world that we live in. And so what can we do about it?
Morra Aarons-Mele:
I mean, this is the thing that when I occasionally get snarky, people who are like, oh, okay, you just wanna live in your feelings and life is so hard and you're just gonna go hide all day because you're anxious. I'm like, no, you're completely missing the point. It's your point. Like Yeah, it's work. Sometimes it sucks. Sometimes people are difficult.
Jen Fisher:
I say work is a four letter word for a reason.
Morra Aarons-Mele:
You know what, and so we can't hide from anxiety, right. We have to have tools, we have to acknowledge it, and then we have to have a better relationship with technology and a and a more intentional relationship. Nobody I know thinks that work for, for the way we're doing it now is feels really great or sustainable. So I have to have faith that it will change.
Jen Fisher:
We're working on it.
Morra Aarons-Mele:
Yeah. We need you Jen. Like seriously.
Jen Fisher:
Yes. We're working on it.
Morra Aarons-Mele:
That's why what you're doing is so important because it's not, everyone knows it's not healthy, I think they just don't know what's next. Yeah. But I think that Slack is really challenging, like instantaneous IMing in addition to email and zoom and text.
Jen Fisher:
Tough. Well it's also just the, the plethora of things. We have our email, we have Zoom, we have our ims, we have our phones, we have our text messages, and then there's all kinds of other messaging apps. And you know, it's like, actually a friend of mine sent me a thing like, oh, download this video messaging app so we can video message each other. And I wrote her back and I'm like, I'm sorry, I love you, but I don't need any more messaging apps.
Morra Aarons-Mele:
No more platforms.
Jen Fisher:
Yes. You know, so it's like we, it's all the things all the time and all at once, most of the time.
Morra Aarons-Mele:
Yeah. And I think that part of it also is like, are you making yourself available to be triggered? This is pathetic to admit, but sometimes when I'm feeling, you know, insecure and anxious, if I check Instagram or LinkedIn, I feel upset because I see someone who's doing what I wish I was doing right. Or I'm feeling like I'm a failure and they're so great. These aren't feelings that I'm proud of as a grown woman, but they're human feelings.
Jen Fisher:
We all have them.
Morra Aarons-Mele:
We all have them. And so the answer is very simple. Just don't go on social media. If you are feeling vulnerable, if you're feeling like opening my email right now at 10:30 in the evening might lead to something that prevents me from sleeping. Don't do it. Like you have more agency than you think.
Jen Fisher:
I mean, I just don't do it.
Morra Aarons-Mele:
Break the habit.
Jen Fisher:
It's a habit. It's a habit. And as bad as it makes us feel, it's also a familiar habit, it's familiar. And so that's comforting in some ways, but we know it's gonna make us feel bad.
Morra Aarons-Mele:
It really is. Yeah.
Jen Fisher:
So, you know, we've been talking about, and you mentioned this, what we're talking about is not the type of anxiety that you talk about it kind of as the good zone, right? But how do we know that our anxiety is moving out of the good zone and really starting to like negatively impact us in, in our lives at work? You know, all the things.
Morra Aarons-Mele:
I don't even know if it's the good zone. 'cause the good zone is really time limited the good, the good zone. Like as a neuroscientist would put it would be I'm about to get my TED talk and so I'm super anxious. But you know, your Jen, your TED talk's over, it was great. It was amazing. You feel great. So hopefully you're not anxious anymore.
Jen Fisher:
That's good. I'm not, but I can relate to that anxiety for sure.
Morra Aarons-Mele:
I know, but, but you needed that anxiety.
Jen Fisher:
I did.
Morra Aarons-Mele:
Totally. You needed it. But it's gone 'cause you did a great job. The anxious achiever kind of chronic anxiety is not quite that good because it is not quite that call and response time to limited. We may feel it even if it's not appropriate. But that's okay. We use it. So the question is, when does it start getting detrimental? It starts getting detrimental when it affects our physical health, our emotional health, our ability to show up and do our work. It affects us maybe avoiding doing things that we want to do or we used to love. You know, an example is that maybe you've let your anxiety around your, who you are and, and feeling like an imposter or feeling like a fraud or that inner critic go so far that you hold yourself back from a promotion or someone gives you a promotion. And this literally happened to me this week with a with someone, you say, I don't deserve the money. Like, I'll take the promotion, but I'm not worth what the previous person got paid.
Jen Fisher:
Wow.
Morra Aarons-Mele:
That's when it's not serving you.
Jen Fisher:
I think you and I are both proponents of seeking help and therapy and interventions long before that point. But if you don't, then that is absolutely the point where further help is needed.
Morra Aarons-Mele:
I mean, I really think that if you can, if you can afford it and if you can do it, therapy is, it's just a tool for insight. And there's lots of kinds of therapy that aren't about lying on a couch and talking about your mom. I recommend that if you want, but there's lots of therapy that is practical and actionable and like very, very applicable to our work lives.
Jen Fisher:
Yeah. So let's talk about kind of if you're a leader in the workplace or if you were a people manager, I think all of us are leaders in the workplace of some kind or another. But like is anxiety contagious? Like can my unaddressed anxiety negatively? Or how does it negatively impact the people that work with me?
Morra Aarons-Mele:
I mean, it does, right? Do I'm sure you can think of a million examples in your own life, right? It's kind like even being on the plane and I'm a bad flyer. And so then I look at, like, I look at the people next to me and if they look anxious and I'm like, oh, crap. And then if I look at the flight attendant and they're just hanging, sitting, chatting in the galley, then I'm like, huh, okay. So it's that analogy and that's why leadership is so important here. And that's why self-aware leaders who understand when they're anxious and don't act it out are so important because your team is keyed into you. And if you are, 'cause we're not good at hiding our emotions, even if we think we are. No, if you're all keyed up, if you're snapping at them, if you are visibly anxious or behaving in a way that shows you're anxious, they'll know. And if they don't know why or what's going on, they will get very, very scared. Especially in this environment, especially now.
Jen Fisher:
And so as a leader, you know, that struggles with anxiety. Like, what, what do I do to make sure that I'm not having that impact on my team? Like, what if I, you know, have something that triggered a whole bunch of anxiety five minutes before I have to walk into a meeting or a call with my team?
Morra Aarons-Mele:
That happens all the time, doesn't it?
Jen Fisher:
It does. And I guess to add to that, how transparent should we be as leaders about, maybe not the specific issue that triggered the anxiety, but maybe, but how transparent should we be about when we're anxious or what makes us anxious? Like, I know that that's very personal, but tell me what you think about that?
Morra Aarons-Mele:
I think sometimes it's personal and sometimes it really doesn't have to be personal. To me, there's a huge difference between sorry guysI just got off the phone with our CEO and he asked me to fly to Chicago in two days with a presentation done. And I'm a little freaking out right now. I mean, to me that's anxiety, but that doesn't feel personal. Who wouldn't be, who wouldn't be anxious about that? Or a story, you know, I work in communications, a story just broke and it's bad and I'm nervous. Right? So that's disclosing anxiety in a way that doesn't feel personal to me. Then there's a really personal thing, which is, and I've got seen examples of this, you know, where money. Sorry guys, you know, we had some bad financial news and money really triggers me.
Morra Aarons-Mele:
So I'm feeling this way. Change is hard for me, whatever. So it's a really personal decision, but the more you feel able and comfortable modeling when there isn't any of your sort of social capital at stake, the better. Because when a leader comes in and they're like, oh man, I just got off the phone. This is really, things are shifting around, you know, you gotta help me out here. Let's figure this out. That to me feels like someone who values me and is being real with me, and I can help them and I wanna help that person.
Jen Fisher:
Right. And I think it also maybe encourages is not the right word, creates the permission or the space for others that might be anxious to open up about it and to do the same, to model that behavior.
Jen Fisher:
Which I think is really important.
Morra Aarons-Mele:
There's a concept called boundary vulnerability, which I really love. And it's really important for leaders, especially in this day and age as we're trying to figure out these new rules. And it's the idea that if you're too tight, if you're too much of a closed book, people might be scared of you, again, that they're gonna know what's going on. Something bad is happening, but they don't know what, and so maybe they're blaming themselves or maybe they're worried, or maybe they're like, oh, you know, Jen's really, she's been locking herself in an office. She's not communicating. Does she know something I don't?What's happening? And you could be having something going on in your personal life, right? It could be something that's affecting you. If you don't, if you don't give them any hint that things aren't a hundred percent, they will, they will get anxious. And it's not ideal. On the other hand, if you walk into work and you're like talking about your messy divorce with everybody, well, that's not a good look for a leader.That doesn't inspire confidence. And so the idea of, of boundary vulnerability is, is really being human and open and vulnerable enough within obviously the boundaries of a professional setting so that people don't feel, oh gosh, she's a mess. I need to take care of her. And I love that concept.
Jen Fisher:
Yeah. I love that concept too. And one of the things that you talk about in your book that really struck me is turning our anxiety into a superpower. And I love to think about my anxiety as a superpower. And I think we've talked about this, you know, obviously throughout this conversation, and that's the subtitle of your book. So talk to me about anxiety is a superpower, and then like, just some really specific, maybe some of your own favorite personal tips and tricks to turn that anxiety into superpower, especially in the moment.
Morra Aarons-Mele:
It becomes a superpower when it stops controlling you and you can become partners together. And I go back to that motivational side of anxiety. And there's a lot of science behind this. That's what anxiety does, right? It's a threat response that allows us to keep ourselves alive. That was its original intent. And well channeled it does force us to think of new solutions, to be more creative, to push through, to work hard, to stick with it. And that can be really valuable. The other way it's a superpower is that when you've been through a mental health challenge, when you've been through the pain, I mean, we haven't talked a lot about the flip side of this stuff, which could be really painful and horrible. You learn, you become introspective, you develop a lot of insight, and you develop empathy.
Morra Aarons-Mele:
Because you know what pain feels like. When others are going through pain, which they will, you can see them more effectively and be present for them. And that's also a gift. The way that I like to think of anxiety is my superpower is I visualize it and when I'm feeling just like I can't settle and I'm restless, but I am so energetic at the same time, I close my eyes and I see the anxiety as like a hurricane in my brain. And I put my hand on top of my head and I pull that anxiety outta my brain that swirling little tornado. I'm doing it right now. I put it on a piece of paper. I'm a paper gal. But you could use a digital tool if you want. And I think, okay, let's get to work.
Morra Aarons-Mele:
You know, I literally, I like put it to work because I think you're not gonna sleep. You can meditate all you want. It's not happening. This is where your physiology is at. Let's give it a job. And you know, the same way that you're going to use that activation energy as Wendy Suzuki calls it, to go on stage and rock your TED talk, you can put it to work to accomplish things and figure out solutions. And there's a reason why a lot of us are really amazing under pressure. And that's 'cause of anxiety.
Jen Fisher:
I just think it's so helpful to think about it in those terms because a lot of us have been doing that in many ways, either our entire life or our entire career at least, but didn't know that's what we were doing. And perhaps weren't always doing it in the healthiest of ways.
Morra Aarons-Mele:
No, no. And that's again where the question of is this serving me? 'cause If you're always doing that, right, if every day is that, then it gets really exhausting.
Jen Fisher:
Then you're gonna burn out.
Jen Fisher:
And we've been there before both of us. Oh, yes. So that is kind of that dark side right? Or that painful side that you were talking about that you're right. We haven't really touched on it. But there is these uncontrolled, like if it's not controlled, if you don't learn the tools and the skills and the self-awareness, it, it can take you to some pretty difficult and painful places to come back from. Not that you can't come back from them, you absolutely can. And I do think that in my own experience, those painful experiences have made me a more self-aware person and friend and spouse and leader. And so I wanna go there a little bit because as a leader, we kind of talked about the impact of our own anxiety on our teams, but if you recognize that there's people on your team that are overly anxious, that are anxious achievers, how can you, how can you help your team manage that kind of, especially in today's work environment, all the things that are fraught with just giving us anxiety.
Jen Fisher:
What are good leader behaviors?
Morra Aarons-Mele:
I love that. Good leader behaviors. I think that the best leader behavior is really not taking yourself too seriously if you're an anxious achiever and really trying to have a little levity and showing that to your team. One of the things that we anxious achievers do, which is both a superpower and can be extremely draining, is we scan the environment for threats. We could be hypervigilant. And so this is amazing. At work, often we really get rewarded for this behavior. I mean, I work with a lot of lawyers. I mean, they're like, I'm totally this person and it's exhausting to me, but also like, my clients pay me a ton of money. To be this person for them. I am anticipating everything that could go wrong.
Morra Aarons-Mele:
And I've been doing that my whole life and I'm really good at it. And so that's a behavior that's a superpower and yet can also really burn us out and get exhausting. And if you see these behaviors in yourself, even saying, you know, oh, I'm doing it again. You know, I gotta like learn to calm down. I just sort of having a sense of levity about it is so powerful for the people who work with you, because then they see that this is not something horrible and scary and insurmountable that they need to hide. It's just a part of life. And that we all have different tricky brains that bring us different things. One of the things that I think is really exciting at work is the amount of people I’ll hear say, you know, man, I have ADHD and so doing this memo, like, this is hard for me. I need to do it this way.
Morra Aarons-Mele:
And I'm like, yes, yeah. Way to ask for what you need, but also you're in this room because you're great at your job and we all know that you just have to work a little bit differently. And so part of what I want people to really take away from this is that these things are a fact of life and they're very common and a lot of us carry a lot of things. And we bring 'em to work and we adapt. And if we share how we've adapted and still done a great job that's powering powerful and inspiring for people around us.
Jen Fisher:
It's also where innovation comes from.
Morra Aarons-Mele:
Yes. And we're taught to feel shame around this stuff, but we don't have to.
Jen Fisher:
I love that. And I think as a leader reflecting back on that, you know, 4:00 PM conversation that I have with my boss that a calendar appointment just showed up with no explanation. Like there's, that's a huge trigger for me.
Jen Fisher:
And so I openly tell leaders and people that I work with, like, Hey, no problem. Like, needing to talk, needing to talk urgently, needing to put time on my calendar. Obviously that's gonna be a need and it's gonna happen. But can you just like, hum a few more bars about what it's about. So I don't immediately go to absolute worst case scenario. So as a leader, I think it's really important and, and I've, you know, I've, I've carried that with me 'cause that's what I need. And so when I recognize that in somebody else and I say, Hey, do you have time to talk? You know, don't worry, it's nothing bad. Or nothing urgent or nothing, you know, like, I just have something on my to-do list that I need to talk to you about. Or I tell them a little bit what it's about and it takes, you know, 30 or 45 extra seconds. But then it doesn't send them spinning.
Morra Aarons-Mele:
Jen. I mean that what a kind thing to do. What a kind thing for someone else. We trigger each other all the time. And we don't even mean to, I interviewed Mark Bracket from Yale, and he said that to me, we just walk around triggering each other all the time. 'cause we're human. Yeah. But if we can be, again, aware self-aware, we can have such an impact. You know, this the simple act of just scheduling your emails and slacks. I know we've all talked about this a million times. That is an act of kindness to not trigger someone else.
Jen Fisher:
Digital communications is just a big trigger for everybody.
Morra Aarons-Mele:
Right? Because it says this is urgent, even though it, it may not be.
Jen Fisher:
For sure. Well, Morra, I feel like we could talk about this for and we can but you know, this has been great. I love your work and, and your book has meant so much to me. And just developing our friendship and relationship. Thank you for what you've done for me and the impact that you've had on so many others. I know that this is gonna be a really powerful conversation for our listeners.
Morra Aarons-Mele:
Oh, back at you, Jen.
Jen Fisher:
Thank you. All right. That was awesome. Beautiful.
Morra Aarons-Mele:
Oh, thank you so much.
Jen Fisher:
Absolutely.