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Summary
In this conversation, Phill Keaney-Bolland and Adam Yaya-Durrant discuss the importance of branding for B2B startups. They define brand as an emotional connection that users have with a product or company's differences, going beyond just a logo or name. They emphasize that brand is everything and should be at the center of a startup's strategy. They also discuss the misconception that branding is a separate entity from the product and the need for marketing and product teams to work together. The conversation highlights the role of brand in differentiating a product and creating a unique and memorable customer experience. In this conversation, Phill and Adam discuss the importance of not being conservative with branding. They emphasize the need for brands to be unique and different in order to attract early adopters and build a tribe. They also highlight the pitfalls of generic branding and the importance of standing out in a saturated market. They discuss the impact of trends and the commoditization of certain design elements. They provide examples of brands that have successfully differentiated themselves and the importance of creating a compelling value proposition. They also mention the upcoming topics they will cover in the next episode.
Takeaways
- Brand is an emotional connection that users have with a product or company, going beyond just a logo or name.
- Brand should be at the center of a startup's strategy and is everything, encompassing the product, messaging, visuals, and customer experience.
- Marketing and product teams need to work together to ensure brand consistency and a seamless customer experience.
- Brand differentiation is crucial for B2B startups to stand out in the market and create a unique and memorable customer experience. Brands should not be conservative and should strive to be unique and different in order to attract early adopters and build a tribe.
- Generic branding is not impactful and does not differentiate a brand from its competitors.
- Trends in design can quickly become saturated and commoditized, leading to a lack of uniqueness.
- Successful brands have a compelling value proposition that sets them apart from their competitors.
- Understanding the market and competitors is crucial for building a compelling brand.
- Creating a brand that stands out is important for winning in the market and creating a monopoly.
- The next episode will cover topics such as hybrid tech businesses, B2B vs B2C branding, and creating a compelling value proposition.
Creators & Guests
What is Cult Products?
Dive into the essentials of start-up success with Cult Products, hosted by Yaya's co-founders, Adam Yaya-Durrant and Phill Keaney-Bolland. This podcast delivers sharp insights on creating revolutionary products, radical branding, and attracting a loyal following of early adopters. Whether you're starting out or scaling up, each episode is packed with actionable advice and stories from those who've built successful businesses. Join Adam and Phill as they help you transform bold ideas into start-up success.
Phill Keaney-Bolland (00:17)
That was deafeningly loud, but hopefully we can turn that down a little bit.
Adam Yaya-Durrant (00:18)
was a little yeah I was gonna say that was particularly loud that one that really I just had to hit it down a notch so yeah we'll have to have a look at the levels afterwards but yeah round two
Phill Keaney-Bolland (00:30)
Yes. How are you feeling?
Adam Yaya-Durrant (00:33)
wait to hear my voice not not amazing to be honest but yeah that's just part and parcel with going to a gig on saturday and screaming too loudly i guess and the same for you because you were at the same gig so
Phill Keaney-Bolland (00:49)
Yeah, same, same. At the same gig, being too old to stand in a mosh pit at a... Do we want to say what gig it was?
Adam Yaya-Durrant (01:02)
I don't think she'd be embarrassed about it anymore. Go on.
Phill Keaney-Bolland (01:03)
We're gonna admit to... We were at Limp Bizkit together in Margate, at Dreamland
It was brilliant, but we're a bit bruised and our throats are a bit raw from all the rapping, which was great. Had to pick Adam up off the floor a few times and vice versa.
Adam Yaya-Durrant (01:24)
Indeed, yes I've got a very large bruise on my knee but it was definitely worth it. And Liam Gallagher was there too so it must be kind of cool I guess so. But yeah, it was great but yeah, a lot of damage done to the vocal cords and to the legs.
Phill Keaney-Bolland (01:31)
Yeah.
Yeah, anyway, we've got our lemsips and paracetamol things, and I've also got a special guest next to me today who might pop his head up at some point. My dog Pedro sat next to me on the sofa, so if you're watching the video of this, you might occasionally see his little head pop up and demand treats off me.
Adam Yaya-Durrant (02:06)
If you're not, you're gonna have to describe what he looks like.
Phill Keaney-Bolland (02:09)
Yeah, the cat's in the room with you.
Adam Yaya-Durrant (02:12)
I don't know where they are, they probably are somewhere, but they'll probably jump on my lap at some point. We're an animal friendly ground band here.
Phill Keaney-Bolland (02:17)
Okay, okay.
So difficult second episode of the podcast. there we go. He's off. Today we're going to talk about branding. He just knocked my camera over.
Adam Yaya-Durrant (02:34)
Ta -da!
If someone doesn't want to talk about branding.
Phill Keaney-Bolland (02:39)
Thanks mate. Thanks mate. That was really helpful. Are we back?
Adam Yaya-Durrant (02:47)
We are.
Phill Keaney-Bolland (02:48)
back. Good. Yeah, so we're going to talk about branding today for B2B startups. And I thought a good place to start would be, what do we mean when we talk about brand? Because I think for us, this stuff is super, super obvious. And we probably have a definition of it that is not necessarily what everyone kind of thinks of.
when they first hear the word brand. So let's start there really.
what do we mean by brand? Because I think when we think about it, we have a definition of it. It's not necessarily what a startup founder might necessarily think brand means. So yeah, so when we talk about brand, what are we talking about?
Adam Yaya-Durrant (03:24)
Yes.
Well, I think the first thing is to talk about what it's not really, which is I think most people come to it thinking a brand is just the logo, just the name, just some colors and a product essentially. And it's really not that. And without sounding like, you know, it's hard when you talk about brand not to sound too lofty. But I definitely think it's really about an emotional connection really that the user...
has with a brand or a product. And I think that's the kind of at the heart of all of this. That's the really important part. And, you know, if you think about yourself, for example, the brands that you kind of interact with, that you engage with, they're on a deeper level than just the kind of logo itself, which kind of obviously does all play a part. And it's all in the kind of fabric of the brand itself. But there's a much more like emotional connection that you kind of forge with that brand.
And if you think about brands in your ecosystem, you reflect on those, they all kind of have a significance to who you are, types of behaviors and values that you hold and all that kind of stuff. So I probably did sound very lofty there saying that, but I did, yeah. The thing is you can't not talk about brand without sounding like that, I think. But you know, yeah, it is hard. It's hard.
Phill Keaney-Bolland (04:56)
you did when you said that Bran's actually an emotional connection. Cool. Yeah.
It's hard to and most people don't, I think it's fair to say, particularly people who work in brand. And I think I struggle a little bit when you start producing the brand onion, which a lot of, yeah, you know exactly what I'm talking about. When you end up with things like, well, you know, at the center of the onion is the...
Adam Yaya-Durrant (05:29)
I like that when that comes out.
Phill Keaney-Bolland (05:37)
brand essence and then outside of that is the brand spirit and then outside of that is you know the I don't know brand flavor or brand vibes or like whatever and you start having all these different things and they aren't like super useful and practical really when you're actually trying to to grow a business which like brand I think really should be at the at the center of everything.
If you're going to be successful, I can sound, you know, kind of, you know, brand, brand wanky and say, you know, actually, when we talk about brand, brand is everything. And it's, and it's experience and it's, you know, it's the intent behind why you do different things. It's the way that you communicate that it's the feel of the product. It's, you know, it touches on everything.
So it is a bit intangible and it is quite difficult to just pin it down and say it's one thing. But it is also sort of everything. So you know, it is very difficult to talk about this without sounding like a...
Adam Yaya-Durrant (06:43)
Yes, there you go. Without getting the brand onion out. people come to us all the time asking for websites, products, and they kind of haven't really thought about the brand. And we do always have to take them up a level because it is the thing that underpins everything and trickles down into things like the product and website dashboard, everything.
Phill Keaney-Bolland (07:03)
Mm.
Adam Yaya-Durrant (07:08)
So it's the cocktail of elements that really make the customer experience kind of thing. And then it feels disfitting because he thinks that's probably a bit banky too. I thought that was a brand cocktail.
Phill Keaney-Bolland (07:18)
Brand cocktail. Brand cocktail. Yeah, you're absolutely right. A lot of people come to us and ask for a website or for a product. And very quickly we end up spinning the conversation around to actually there's a piece of work here that you need to do to define the brand before we can get to those things. And...
and actually make them work and be really good. With websites a lot of the time it's quite apparent to us if we look at something and they say, our website's not really performing, we don't really like our website, can we redo it? The issue isn't necessarily just a user experience issue, it is more likely a significant brand issue and the way to make the website better is to actually address the...
issues with the brand and then express them through the website. And the same actually is also true of products. Why do you think it is that it's not the first thing on the minds of B2B startup founders at the start of that journey?
Adam Yaya-Durrant (08:33)
Yeah, I think it's exactly like, I mean, it's what we find every day when someone comes to us with a problem. I think, especially maybe more so in B2B founders, they're always going and looking at the functional practical parts of what they're trying to achieve and less thinking around the emotional connection that that product or what they're trying to create can have with the kind of user. So I think, I think just...
in their nature they're going to like what does this product or thing need to do but they're not thinking about how it needs to be like adopted or connected to connect with the people that it's intended for. I think that's why so like every time when we have something they're like people start with like this is the thing but they don't really ever start with like this is the kind of bigger thing the other parts of the ambient I guess.
Phill Keaney-Bolland (09:12)
Mm.
Yeah, because it's quite, I suppose, intangible and it's quite easy to say, I can see that we need the output, the website or the product without really seeing the brand as a foundational element for either of those things.
Adam Yaya-Durrant (09:27)
I'm tense for you.
Yes. Yes.
Yeah. And I also think that like traditionally like brands has always been seen as a separate entity. Do you know what I mean? Like it's like, you know, brand, brand agencies, like traditional brand agencies, right before digital brands like they're calling like this kind of age, digital branding age. traditional agencies were doing like TV ads and billboard posters. And that was like, that's brand. And it was kind of put into this box of brand and also a brand process.
would be like, you know, months, years, not like weeks. And I think, I think also there's a tendency for founders to be a bit of it, like put off and nervous about that, like brand God, like, are we, if they worked at a big place like IBM, or we did this brand project and it went on for years and it was really painful, we had the other. And I think that's the thing as well, is that they don't want to open that box because they're like, you know, it's expensive, it's long and it's arduous. And as we know, startups don't have that time or budget to do that kind of stuff.
Phill Keaney-Bolland (10:41)
I do, I mean, I love brand strategy. I think it's super, super important, but I think everybody has a bit of a war story around brand or an experience of, you know, brand kind of falling a bit flat, as you say, taking forever, meaning a load of upheaval, and then not really seeing much kind of benefit from doing this stuff in probably more kind of larger organizations, to be honest, than in the startup space where...
I think it can be painful because you have so many different voices and stakeholders and things like that where you just end up with this real sort of compromised thing at the end of the process and it's not fun to do and there's lots of different interests that are all kind of competing. I suppose when you're in a startup you don't have a lot of that because you are able as a founder to be quite...
quick in making decisions, you're also under a bunch of pressure and you need to get stuff done. And as you say, I think, you know, it's amazing how quickly you can actually answer a load of really important strategic questions well enough to create a really distinct brand. I'm going to try one more time with a slightly, you know, kind of brand wanky thing, but I think what I would boil brand down into...
is that it's really the expression of the differences between your business and everyone else and a way of connecting those differences with the target market in a really compelling way through visuals, through product experience, through messaging, through all of those kinds of things. And that core,
of that expression of differences, really, you know, it ties into what we were talking about in the last episode around capturing that early market where you have a group of people and you have to get them on board with this idea that what your startup is doing is going to revolutionize the way that they work and do something new and change the game.
If you're going to build a product and that product is going to be really differentiated from everything else that's out there, how can your brand then not be really, really differentiated and call out those differences really, really effectively and look and feel like nothing else? Because ultimately, and I think, you know, there was a back to back to old.
Steve Jobs, he always said that the best marketing is just telling the truth. And so if you've got a differentiated product, it should be really easy and obvious to have a differentiated brand because the truth is that's the product.
Adam Yaya-Durrant (13:46)
Yeah. And I guess like how do like, consumers understand that it's different from everything out of that without the kind of brands that are really leading on that messaging and communication. And I think when we've picked up projects where like, the founders have like gone so far down with the products and then they're like, okay, we need to get a brand in here and try and retrofit it. It becomes quite muddled.
so I think the two can be a lot more synchronized and there's a lot more overlap than I think people initially understood. and I think that is like a hangover from the kind of traditional branding agency moving into the digital world and not understanding that digital brands probably need to be viewed like a little bit differently to, you know, more kind of traditional brands. And we've seen that.
in like products haven't we, for when like the brand is saying one thing and, and, and then the product feels really disconnected and refragmented. And then like, and then you go and go into an organization. they're like, we don't really talk to the brand people. We don't really have any communications with the marketing team. That's in marketing. It's like, well, product to marketing, why are they like so separate? They're like, they're at the corners, other corners of the business. Cause really like.
A lot of people are seeing the brand through the product or seeing the brand through the digital experience. And so they do need to be like to be synced up. And I think that thing kind of, we see it so many times and it's something I think that's kind of still now doesn't really get done properly. It's seen it as two separate entities.
Phill Keaney-Bolland (15:30)
Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. I think marketing and product have to really work in concert with each other because you are trying to, again, bring up those differences, tell the world how you're going to do something really differently, and your product actually has to do those things.
The people that are out talking to customers and sales and writing copy for websites and all of that kind of stuff, they get a sense of what really resonates well with people when they're ultimately buying the product and things that people are asking for that aren't in the product, things that they really care about. The product people understand how their product is different from competitors and...
So all those people working together means that you're totally on the same page. So I think a lot of places see kind of marketing and brand as like a layer on top of product. Actually, it's all...
one experience and the best companies do all of this stuff together. And I think it's layered. So, to give an example of a project that we worked on recently, we were originally brought in, we did the brand and, it was quite a fast -paced branding project, but, you know, trying to create something that...
looked different to what was out there. And then the next thing that we did was the product. And because we'd done the brand, we understood what the brand values are, we could understand what needed to be brought out in the product initially. Because we then user tested the product, we started to understand more about what the users actually cared about, and that was able to influence the brand a bit more. And then there was this back and forth and back and forth and...
you know, as we sort of figured out a bit more what the actual interactions people wanted to have with the product, we were able to kind of bring that story to life in a different and more compelling way. And even within that, I think there are, you know, if you came at us and said, you know, why do I need a brand to be able to build a product? Well, there's a really like basic tactical level, like what color are the buttons going to be? You know, this kind of...
Decisions that have to be made, which I've made that sound trivial, but those kinds of things are actually important for the feel of this. There's questions about what should the feel of this be like? And you'll know from products that you've used, there is, and the classic obviously being you use a Microsoft product, you use an Apple product, or a Google product, they all have a unique feel, and that is a...
in large part down to brand and what they're trying to express, who they're trying to attract, all of those kinds of things. That's driven by personas. You use the same personas for marketing as you use for product. And then I think you start to think about functionality through the lens of brand.
and what features need to go in there because you're taking a strong position against the existing mainstream market and saying we're doing things differently. How do you then make decisions about what goes into a product? It actually should be led by brand or even don't call it brand, you know, just think about it as kind of one total thing. And just to go back to that example of that project that we've done recently.
We spent a lot of time figuring out the UX, which was super complicated. And then what we did was we actually said, now let's really, really ramp up the brand. And it did a couple of things. There was a step change between user tests from the version that was quite dark and a little bit generic to the one which actually had a bit of levity and felt a bit more unique and distinct from other.
tools that people had used and we brought in even little characters and animations in unexpected places, ramping up the unexpected moments of joy within what is quite a technical product. And the way that people felt totally changed. It was like we're falling in love with this product as opposed to a this is really, really...
useful as a product. It's obviously both. The user test ended and the person testing it just said, you know, how much is this and when can I get it? Which was a really positive reaction that I think a lot of that kind of came down to the brand. But also just, you know, in terms of how people understood things, because it has a consistent feel, it's consistent with the collateral and literature that they've seen elsewhere.
and it just feels kind of natural because they've seen these colours and everything, they know what it all means, they know what we're trying to communicate. People actually found the tool easier to use as well, which is really, really cool. So
I suppose it may feel like an intangible thing, but it's a multiplier of the effectiveness of your marketing and of your product and of your website
Adam Yaya-Durrant (20:59)
Yeah.
And it's the thing that makes you unique, right? Like that's, you know, that's such a good example because, you know, the first priority, very product is making it like functional, usable, that kind of stuff. And then they kind of lower brand moments, but really like the thing that's going to make it unique and different and stand out and memorable are those little elements, Easter eggs, little kind of high brand moments that you kind of pepper into, into the product. And that's why I think at the moment brand is more important than, than anything in that customer experience, because anyone can pick up a material,
design system and make it some colors and chuck it out but it's really how you make it more ownable, more unique and people are left being like wow that was a really cool experience I really like these little micro animations like the thing I'm talking about it's not just about looking fills it's also about tone of voice like you know having a more like down to earth tone of voice or like in certain areas of a product that would say
you know, adds to the whole kind of brand experience. You know, there's so many products that look like other products. You know, how do you stand out and how do you create those really kind of peak interest moments where you can add that nice kind of element of...
of high brand stuff.
Phill Keaney-Bolland (22:17)
well now we've nailed that. Let's take a short break and then we can come back and talk about how to make your brand actually stand
We just had the adverts with the biscuit.
Adam Yaya-Durrant (22:35)
John Otto. Okay, right, we're back, we're good, we're good, yes we are. Okay, so we're gonna ask a question which I think me and Phill, both have quite strong opinions around, is why with a brand you can't be conservative?
Phill Keaney-Bolland (22:54)
Well, this again is down to if you're going to really revolutionise and differentiate something, why would you be conservative? Why would you say, we're doing something that's really different to everyone else, but let's look like everyone else? It just would be dishonest and I think it would be confusing for people.
And this comes back to, I suppose, are you going after early adopters or are you going after the majority? Because if you're going after the majority, it's kind of good to look like everyone else to some extent. That's why the IT directors buy Microsoft and products that look like Microsoft and those kinds of things. But if you're going after early adopters, they are people who are actively saying, I want something that's different.
Adam Yaya-Durrant (23:49)
Yeah.
Phill Keaney-Bolland (23:49)
So make it really obvious that you are different and then those people will come and they'll be beating out of your hands. So yeah, that's why you shouldn't just be conservative.
Adam Yaya-Durrant (24:01)
Definitely. I mean you can't like build like a tribe with being conservative, can you? Like you know you have to have to offer something unique and offer something different and I think you know if you think about even full sounds like music, culture, all these different things you know it has to like something new and interesting that people want to kind of get attracted to like moths and you know that's I'm like that in stuff with music and everything so I'm always looking on the lookout for something.
just to get my curious brain going and those brands like they have to stand for something, they have to communicate that they stand for something different and visibly and in their kind of communication and messaging and I think that is the only way otherwise I literally don't see the point to be honest like I don't see the point of like of being just another
Phill Keaney-Bolland (24:50)
Yeah.
Adam Yaya-Durrant (24:55)
tech, start up brand. And you know, we've in the past formed victims to creating those because sometimes, you know, you try and push a founder to do something bold and do something unique. You get a bit nervous. You have to take them on that journey, like really show them that this is why we're doing it. And, and, and, and nine times out of 10 when we've done that and they've completed it and they've gone through that, it might've felt a bit rough on the way, but when they've got to that point, it can then be like, yeah, this is, this is great. This is awesome. I understand.
people, it's really resonated with the right people. Whereas like, if it doesn't happen and they're very like, dig their heels in and it goes to kind of generic text art, boxy square, blue, purple, green, whatever, it's generally like not as impactful, in my opinion. And there's a lot of them out there.
Phill Keaney-Bolland (25:43)
Yeah, okay, so there's, well yeah, there are. And so there were two things there that I think I'd like to just kind of pull out from what you just said. One is I think, yeah, you can't build a tribe with a really just generic MeToo brand. And I think you can have a tribe that has a very generic MeToo brand that people want to join. But if you're just starting one,
Why would anyone go to your thing that just looks the same as everyone else when there's a much bigger tribe somewhere else that also looks exactly the same? So it's like going to a party. Do you want to go to a party with two or three people or do you want to go to the one that everyone wants to go to?
Adam Yaya-Durrant (26:25)
Do you want to go to a cool party that no one knows about but it's cool or do you want to go to the vanilla party?
Phill Keaney-Bolland (26:33)
Yeah, but this is this is like saying do you want to go to a party that no one knows about and also doesn't look cool? It just looks like everyone. It just looks exactly the same as the much, much bigger vanilla party. Yeah, so that that doesn't really work. And then, yeah, you're absolutely right. There are just a load of tropes that I think are just associated with being very conservative as a brand. And I actually think there's there's two levels to this. There are.
Adam Yaya-Durrant (26:39)
That's it, true, yeah, yeah, yeah. Here's the generic part, see? But yeah.
Phill Keaney-Bolland (27:03)
brands that look like or are trying to look like the majority piece of the market.
But then there are also brands that just look like generic startups and regardless of what industry they're in, they all have the same illustration style or they're using the same typefaces or all of those kinds of things. So as a brand expert and a creative, what are the things, Adam, that when you see them, you look at and you're like...
Yeah, this is just like copy paste stuff. What are the specific things?
Adam Yaya-Durrant (27:41)
Yeah.
It's, it's hard, right? Because like, you know, we get so many people come to us and be like, you know, I want this style of illustration because I've seen this style of illustration on things that I like. And it's, I get that, but it is, it is, it, they are trends and these trends become saturated extremely, extremely quickly. And it's trying to look beyond those trends and see, okay, what is the thing that's going to like future, choose this brand to be still relevant and stand out. Because otherwise if you're doing like just knocking out a flat illustration, like.
like start with some people, I don't know what these illustrations are doing outside, but that's gonna just look like everything else within half a year's time, you're gonna have to kind of re -change it. So it's difficult because people are looking around and they're absorbing all the time, they're seeing things that appeal to the senses, but it's really trying to get them thinking a little bit differently and bigger than just what's in front of them, I guess, is the key.
I don't know if that answered your question at all, but that's how I try and think about it.
Phill Keaney-Bolland (28:44)
Well, let's come back to that question, but I think you're right. There are a lot of trends, and the thing with trends is they kind of become commoditized, so literally those illustrations. You'll know the ones that we mean, because if you've ever been on a startup website, you'll probably have seen them. They started off as somebody's original idea, and then over time they became adopted by...
Adam Yaya-Durrant (28:54)
Hmm.
Phill Keaney-Bolland (29:10)
a load of brands and then eventually they just got kind of put on shutter stock and people could download those for very little money without needing to hire an illustrator, do a little bit of customisation and then you know roll them out so you can literally see the cost of having a brand like that decrease over time as those things become available to kind of mass market and then suddenly they're everywhere and when people say they look cheap it's because they literally are, it's because literally everyone can
afford them so actually everyone's using them and you know I think there's been a there's been a few things like that I've always really liked the quote and I can't remember who said it but it was you know from back when I was kind of doing advertising when everyone else zigs zag and it's always stuck in my head and I have this you know I do have that mentality a lot of the time if that if everyone else is doing it we're not doing it and you should because again trying to look you're trying to look different from everyone.
Adam Yaya-Durrant (29:58)
Mm.
Yeah, I think.
Yeah, I think you are the biggest zigzagger or zagger from a zig. But we can both are because we just want to like do something that's unique. We want to provide our clients with something that feels really ownable. And I don't think it can be ownable if it just looks like everything else, but maybe a bit nicer. And I have to say that we've fallen victim in the past of doing that. I definitely have way back when.
And we're sick of it, we're tired of it, we want something different. Like, you know, people want something different, people want something that's going to interest them and it's tough out there because it's like, it's so saturated and so flooded. That, you know, how do you find that thing?
And I guess sometimes we're so hell bent on trying to find that thing. You've got to be careful, you've got to get the right balance. You can't do something that's completely out there that just doesn't fit the bill, just doesn't really align to the values and proposition
But there's definitely like, I think Phil and I are big advocates when we start projects, do like branding, we want to push things out as far as we can. We always kind of want the client to be like, hey guys, you need to like tone it back, rather than the other way around. We're like, like the biggest insight we can have is when the client is like, can we push it further or show us some inspiration that actually is a bit more dynamic. And that's really like a bit, that means we haven't done our job because we haven't pushed their thinking. We haven't.
Phill Keaney-Bolland (31:19)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Adam Yaya-Durrant (31:34)
gone wide enough in what we're creating.
Phill Keaney-Bolland (31:38)
I think that's very good advice if you're in the market for an agency is get an agency who doesn't quite nail it exactly. I mean, that's terrible advice. If they can nail it exactly, then great. But don't get an agency who you're having to push. Get an agency that you're having to rein in because I think that kind of back and forth is how you get to the sweet spot.
Adam Yaya-Durrant (31:50)
Hahaha
Yeah.
Exactly.
Phill Keaney-Bolland (32:08)
Obviously we're not just talking about visuals here, we are to some extent, but I think it's super important really, a lot of brands win in their market because of their brand, a better way of saying that, a lot of start -ups win in their market and create monopolies because of their brand. That is a thing it's possible to do. You might be up against somebody who has a...
broadly similar new idea of how to revolutionize a market and the thing that differentiates you could be your brand. It could be the thing that kind of wins. So it is super important then that it doesn't just look exactly like everyone else because that essentially means...
and to go back to the tropes thing and the pitfalls to watch out for.
I think if you can't sit down and do a competitor comparison table quite easily where you can say this is us and these are the things that we do that are similar to what everyone else does and these are the things that are totally different, you're kind of knackered. I don't think you can really build a compelling brand, a compelling marketing, compelling websites, compelling product unless you really understand.
what those things are, because then what ends up happening is you end up saying, we're doing what everyone else is doing, but we're just doing it better.
And that's a bad place to be as a business. That's not a place where you can really capture a market and create a monopoly. It's a space where you're just constantly going to be saying that you're better and competing on price. And you're going to squeeze out your profit margins and your business isn't going to be successful. You're going to have to spend a load of money in customer acquisition because you're going to be fishing for even down to same keywords, same ad channels, same messaging. And it's just ultimately
going to be a situation where people are going to have two things that are basically similar, side by side, they look the same, they're saying the same things, they're doing the same things, and it doesn't give them any reason to say these are the ones that are really going to change my life. If you can't do that, you're not going to be successful as a startup. Sorry to keep banging on about this, but you have to capture that early market.
you know, before you can get the mainstream. That's where the scrapping happens. And the way to win that is to really revolutionise things and differentiate and make that really obvious. So, if, when things that I see when I know that that's kind of going on, if I see somebody on their website start talking generically about problem solving,
Adam Yaya-Durrant (34:52)
Mmm.
Phill Keaney-Bolland (35:18)
or even the word solutions to me, just vaguely, that we provide solutions, we solve complex challenges, like non -specific generic stuff. I'm like, yeah, that's...
that's not a brand that's worked out what it does and how to communicate that in a differentiated way. It's probably a company where a bunch of people have a lot of different opinions and they've had to just meet in the middle and say, okay, let's say nothing. Let's just kind of do nothing. And...
Adam Yaya-Durrant (35:52)
Let's say nothing but...
Yeah, let's say nothing but also like say it in a very like functional practical way not like not touch on like the emotional side of things at all. So it's just like the solutions all those things. But that's not going to entice me into like I'm not now born into how does that brand make me feel work just nothing. Like do I do I feel bought into the mission? I don't know what the mission is like. Do you want to be part of the tribe?
Phill Keaney-Bolland (35:59)
Mm -hmm.
nothing, asleep.
Adam Yaya-Durrant (36:21)
absolutely not this is just kind of yeah it's just the same same yeah
Phill Keaney-Bolland (36:25)
Yeah, yeah,
The colour blue for me is just, it's so middle of the road. I was actually trying to think if there were any exciting, revolutionary brands that aren't now mainstream brands that have blue as their primary colour. And I just couldn't. There was a period...
Adam Yaya-Durrant (36:30)
The club.
Phill Keaney-Bolland (36:49)
early 2000s, Twitter and Facebook and everyone was blue but now those people are like us, a bit long in the tooth and not quite as cool anymore. I think when I see that kind of blue I just think yeah this is a very generic corporate business and for me that's saying you solve problems.
talking about just generic solutions and having a blue brand, they're three things where I'm like, yeah, this is just not, it's not gonna work.
Adam Yaya-Durrant (37:27)
not for me. Any blue brands out there, sorry about that. But you will have your day again because blue will go out and then it will come back in maybe in 2030 and it'll be like the new, it's the blue season again. But I do think in real life all those things I absolutely agree and just to put that into something that's a bit real, I think Monzo is a really good example of a brand that...
did it really well from the brand itself, when it first came out, building out that kind of advocacy and tribe and community, and then the products as well, from something different. I'm still a huge fan of Monzo, love everything they do, and that's because I'm just completely bought into the brand itself, what it stands for, like the app, how it works, bits of high brand moments within that, all that kind of stuff, it's just packaged up in a great thing.
it's like when everyone wanted the apple look isn't it, you know, and so many people came to us being like I just want a website that looks like the apple website. Good for you. But you know, it's hard.
because you haven't got the budget to create an Apple website.
Phill Keaney-Bolland (38:42)
It's hard because the Apple website costs hundreds of thousands of pounds and generally the conversation we're having is I'd like the Apple website but I'd like it for a tenth of the price of what they spent on
Adam Yaya-Durrant (38:56)
champagne taste lemonade, that is.
Phill Keaney-Bolland (39:00)
Yes, exactly. Look, clearly there is a lot of stuff that we can talk about in the brand space and that's why we're gonna actually do two episodes on brand. So I think what we'll do is we will wrap up here but join us next week when we will be talking about, amongst other things...
you know, how you build in models that are kind of hybrid tech businesses and consultancies, what some of the differences between B2B and B2C are, and probably my favorite topic, which is how do you create a really compelling value proposition and why is that, in my opinion, the most important thing that you can do in terms of brand, product, anything, essentially.
We are still looking for startups to join our beta version of the product that we're creating. We'll put a link in the show notes for how to apply to take part in that. If you are in the process of starting a B2B startup, please do reach out to us. We would love to help you with that. We'd love to give you some coaching and we'd love to use you as guinea pigs for the product that we are in the process of creating.
Adam Yaya-Durrant (40:17)
Definitely.
Phill Keaney-Bolland (40:21)
like and subscribe to the podcast. I don't think you can, can you like a podcast? I don't know. But do it if you can. And we are actually giving away a AI powered UI prototyping toolkit at cultproducts .co. Again, link in the show notes. Adam, have you got anything else you want to plug?
Any other things you want people to go and do?
Adam Yaya-Durrant (40:49)
don't apply. Yes. And we've got this big brand onion that will give you as a literal onion that will will post your dog. No, we won't give you a big brand onion, but we do have some really nifty tools and templates that we've built over the years. And we didn't really get to talk about like the minimal viable brand stuff, but like something that kind of make us can generate brands more nimbly and all that kind of stuff, which is really cool to share at some point as well. But no.
I think that's great we've got this cool view. can you do that in the second one? Okay great there you go teed it up nicely.
Phill Keaney-Bolland (41:19)
Well, we will literally do that in the next episode.
Yes, we still won't sound any better because we're going to record it in five minutes. So apologies, the little biscuit hangover throat conditions will still be, will keep on rolling.
Adam Yaya-Durrant (41:32)
yes.
Nice. Ouch.
Phill Keaney-Bolland (41:44)
Nice. Thanks for that reaction. Okay. Thanks everybody for listening and we will see you next week.