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Welcome to The Overflow—the bonus round of faith and real-life conversation with Brandon and Susan Thomas. Every week, they unpack the powerful insights, behind-the-scenes experiences, and personal reflections that didn’t quite fit into Sunday’s sermon.
This is where the conversation gets practical, honest, and a little bit unscripted. Whether it's an encouraging word, a deeper dive into Scripture, or a hilarious moment from their week, Brandon and Susan bring fresh perspective and spiritual fuel to keep you going.
It’s real talk, fresh takes, and full hearts.
These are the conversations too good to cut and too real to miss.
Well, welcome back to The Overflow. Today is going to be an incredible conversation. We have someone so special, a friend of mine, a friend of our church, Debra Fileta. She has been given truly, I believe, a a God voice. God has given her a voice that he is speaking to our culture.
Speaker 1:He's speaking to the church, and I believe he's gonna speak to you and me today in this conversation. So we're gonna dive right in. We're talking about people skills, and it's probably not just what you think. Think. Thank you so much just for coming and just being willing to have this conversation.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I know you're having a lot of conversations, and we're very privileged to talk to you today.
Speaker 2:It's so great to be with you.
Speaker 1:Oh, so glad. I wanna hear before we dive into this topic, because this is a recent book that you so you've written many books. This is your most recent book. But what drew you you're a counselor. We're both LPC's.
Speaker 1:Yeah. What drew you to this field? What drew you to work with people? Tell us a little about how it started.
Speaker 2:I come from a medical home. And it's interesting because my cultural background is Middle Eastern. I'm Egyptian. And in the Egyptian culture, counseling is not really a thing. You know?
Speaker 2:Like, it's not on people's radar. A decade ago, there was not even a word for counseling, you know? And so I assumed that I would go into the medical field just like most of my family and family members. And I started down that path with my education. And I would find that in hospital settings, I would be so interested in just sitting by the bedside and chatting with the patient and just hearing their story and their life and, you know, their heart, what they're going through, their emotional state.
Speaker 2:And
Speaker 1:and
Speaker 2:then the the medical stuff was like, yeah, I could take it or leave it.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so that actually opened my eyes to the fact that I love people and I love working with their heart and and what God is doing on a deeper level than the physical. And so I just started pursuing a counseling degree. I was like, let me start with psychology and see where it goes. And then that ended up with me going and getting my master's in counseling. It just matched my personality and what God was already birthing in me before I even realized it.
Speaker 2:That's incredible.
Speaker 1:And so you're going down the path of medical Yeah. Because that's what your family did. Yeah. That's really what was what you do. Right.
Speaker 1:And then lo and behold, you're sitting by the hospital beds, and you're you're you're thinking there's something more here for me. There's a different
Speaker 2:Like, this isn't it.
Speaker 1:Wow. That yours is actually much more profound than mine. I was just a ding dong in in college, and I was in business school because my mom was like, get a business degree if you don't know what you wanna do. And I did not like business. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And so at one point, I thought to myself, I like people. Yeah. What what can I study about people? I mean, it was not deep. But then the lord and his goodness, it's funny.
Speaker 1:He directs our steps even when we might not have a clue.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And so he knew. But I love I share your passion for this field and just what God has done and is doing through you is really reaching and helping a lot of people. So I'm excited to hear about your latest passion. So People Skills, and I wanna just show this to everybody. So People Skills, Debra Fileta, get it on Amazon, anywhere you can find it.
Speaker 1:But this is a huge, huge topic. And a lot of people would say, yeah, everybody needs it. But I don't think we really know what we're saying.
Speaker 2:I agree with you. And interestingly enough, I okay. So I have nine books. This is my ninth. And it's funny because whenever you're writing, people when when you're a professional writer, people always ask, well, what are you working on these days?
Speaker 2:And I there's certain subjects. For example, Soul Care was the book before this, and it was about burnout and preventing burnout and the rhythms that keep you filled and and healthy.
Speaker 1:By the way, very important book.
Speaker 2:And and so when I would share, oh, soul care, I'm writing about the rhythms that Jesus practiced to stay filled. People would say, I need that. I need that. I'm feeling so burnt out. I'm feeling so drained.
Speaker 2:I am doing too much. It's like doing too much was a badge of honor. You know? It's like, I'm doing too much. I need this book.
Speaker 2:But people skills, it was a completely different reaction. Okay. I would say they'd say, are you writing about? And I'd say, oh, I'm writing about people skills. And immediately, they thought they knew what it meant.
Speaker 2:Like, oh, I know someone who could use that. That was almost
Speaker 1:This other person in my life.
Speaker 2:The the the consistent reaction. I know some my husband could use this book. My teenager could use this book. This generation could use this book. But it was very rare.
Speaker 2:Like, I wanna say like, if I had to count, it was like nine out of 10 people would say, know someone else who could use this book. And every now and again, someone would say, I need this for myself. And I think part of that is twofold. I think a, we see burnout as a badge of honor. Right?
Speaker 2:Whereas people skills, a lack of people skills feels embarrassing. We don't wanna acknowledge it. So so that's part of it. I think we're also susceptible as human beings to seeing the speck in our brother's eye before we see the plank in our own eye. And so I think that's part of it too.
Speaker 2:It's like, oh, I see her issues. If there's a relationship breakdown, it's usually because of them, not because of me. Absolutely. You know? It's hard for us to take ownership.
Speaker 2:And so the very first chapter of people skills starts out with why you need them, not just the person you're thinking of. Because there's 31 different skills. And I think when people think of people skills, they think, well, I can have a conversation with strangers. I'm an extrovert. That's part of it.
Speaker 2:It's a small fraction. Because you can be an extrovert and still not have healthy people skills. You can be an attention vortex. You can be a narcissist. You can be really good with people and still not have the relational equity that you need for healthy relationships, forgiveness, vulnerability, repair, conflict and communication.
Speaker 2:All of these deeper issues that are underneath the surface. So it's something for people to really think through and not just assume, oh, yeah, I'm good with people.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. And what you're saying, so many thoughts immediately, you know, go come to my mind. But what you're saying first about make sure that I look at me Yeah. Before I look at my sister, my brother, my husband, my spouse, my friend.
Speaker 1:Right. Right? That I look at that other person. I think that's so key and something that we've talked about before, you and I, is just and I'm very passionate about it, is just the patterns of people. And I believe the bible reveals the patterns often, and then we see it play out, especially if you work with people a lot and in your own life, if you start to become self aware.
Speaker 1:But Matthew seven is interesting. You quoted that one because that speck in your own eye you're the log in your own eye, the speck in your brother's eye. That's a ground rule for marriage. That's one of the first things in marriage counseling I'll do is say, hey. Our ground rule is Matthew seven.
Speaker 1:Can we commit to that Yeah. The rest of our time together? But it's a pattern. Yeah. There's something in us, and you mentioned it.
Speaker 1:Maybe it's we don't wanna see our weakness, and that's embarrassing. And and it can be too. Just we we're so we don't we're not self aware.
Speaker 2:Right. We
Speaker 1:can't see our own reality.
Speaker 2:Right. We're not self aware. And I think ownership is really hard for people to own their role in the relationship feels like taking blame, but it's not blame. It's power. In my opinion, it's not blame.
Speaker 2:It's power. Because when I see my role, then I have control to change the equation. If I don't have a role in the equation, I have no control to change it. I have no power to change it. And and you have to see it like that relationships are like a recipe.
Speaker 2:You know? You have a certain set of ingredients. I have a certain set of ingredients. And I can spend my days trying to change your set of ingredients and it's not gonna happen. You know?
Speaker 2:I can I can try to control you? I can I can try to to to manipulate you? I can try to nag you into shifting. It's not gonna happen with without you desiring it. But what I can do is I can change my ingredients.
Speaker 2:I can change what I bring to the table of this relationship. I can refine my ingredients and take out the bad. And and when I bring new ingredients to the recipe, it changes the whole recipe. It influences the whole equation of the relationship. And so even if you're interacting with someone, you know, maybe somebody is currently in a marriage and they're like, well, my husband's not budging.
Speaker 2:He's been the same way for thirty years. And but you know what? You still have the power to change the way that you act, react, respond. The boundaries that you set. Your ingredients are still in your hands, and they influence the entire recipe.
Speaker 2:So if we if we would go into relationships with that mindset, there's no limit to the type of influence we could have.
Speaker 1:I wanna just repeat what you said. I mean, part of what you said. That was rich. Because I think there was something I think you said that often we'll look at it as blame. Yes.
Speaker 1:Say that part again.
Speaker 2:Yeah. When somebody points out something that we need to change or when the holy spirit points it out, we can instantly feel shame. Oh, they're saying it's my fault. Yeah. I did something wrong.
Speaker 2:I don't wanna acknowledge that I did something wrong. I failed. I'm not adequate. And the shame kicks in, the blame. And so we reject it.
Speaker 2:We get defensive rather than receive it and get better. But what if we would shift and not see it as blame, but as power and control and authority to shift our situation? Because I can do it differently. And if I do it differently, changes the outcome of this thing. So it just it just that that small mindset shift can help us do a little better when it comes to taking ownership.
Speaker 1:That's so good. Ownership. And
Speaker 2:when you
Speaker 1:talk about those ingredients, because, like you said, I love the illustration. I'm very I'm very visual. So the maybe you are too listening that the ingredients you've got these ingredients, and they're yours to work with. And when you can cook and bake with those ingredients, and that's yours. You can't do it with your husband's or your wife's.
Speaker 1:Right. It's yours. Right. So when you come to talking about those ingredients, what are some of the ingredients that are absolutely critical for your cake to bake?
Speaker 2:People Skills has 31 different skills. And I would say ownership is probably the most important one. We started with that. Yeah. But then there's other things that go a little bit deeper.
Speaker 2:I'll give you some of the subjects, and then we'll see what feels like the next one to discuss. Vulnerability and body language and conflict management. The communication types. There's different ways to communicate different styles of communication that I don't think people even realize that they have or they're not even aware of them. Forgiveness, pride, humility, all of these things, triggers that we struggle with, that we we get triggered by someone and we think it's them when really it's something in us.
Speaker 2:So there's just so many different skills and ingredients, boundaries that that people aren't aware of. You know, we don't know what the list of ingredients even should be. So we're just trying to pull whatever we can from the pantry and it's not working out. And I also think two two things that get in the way. Number one, we don't learn much about this in church.
Speaker 2:You know, we just don't. I think growing up in a Christian home, I learned to say please and thank you and sorry every now and again when I needed to. That was the extent of my people skills.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 2:You know? There wasn't much.
Speaker 1:Probably not alone.
Speaker 2:There wasn't much there. So we struggle with it in church culture in just even learning how to relate to people and engage in healthy ways. And then social media culture. Social media teaches us social skills that aren't healthy or good. You know, they teach us things that sabotage our relationships.
Speaker 2:You know, just look at any comment section these days. It is like, goodness gracious. And and and that becomes our primary way of engaging with people. So then that becomes the template of how we do relationships. And and so it's no wonder we're the most connected society, but the most isolated, alone, with the fewest deep friendships.
Speaker 1:Friendships. Okay. Now I you're kinda taking me. I wanna go to another direction, and I wanna come back to those ingredients. But I wanna linger for a second on the barriers because you're talking about social media right now, and I wanna go back to which wasn't an ingredient, but you mentioned triggers.
Speaker 1:Could we just spend a minute on some of the things that really do sabotage Yeah. Connections with other people because well, and even the definition of people skills, I know from just a little bit I've already read that the book is talking, yes, about learned skills with one another, but the bigger picture is deep, intimate connection. Connection. Yeah. Right?
Speaker 1:That those are means to an end almost. Exactly. Not the the, you know, end in themselves.
Speaker 2:Exactly. The bigger picture is that we become more like Jesus. The church has a bad reputation right now in the world. You know, I don't think we're known for our love the way that God wants us to be. And it's interesting because we think we're conveying love, but it's actually getting convoluted.
Speaker 2:And in order for us to convey God's love in the most effective, clear, pure way, we have to have a skill set. We have to be leaning into the holy spirit and what he wants to teach us in order to convey God's love a little bit better. When I think of the umbrella, the theological umbrella of people skills, I think of first Corinthians nine, where Paul says, I have become all things to all people So that by all means possible, some might be saved. And it's like, by all means possible, I don't want to get in the way. I don't want my junk, my triggers, my lack of social skills, my cool demeanor, my mean body language that I'm not even aware of, my lack of communication skills to get in the way of the love of God being communicated to this desperate world.
Speaker 2:Like we we can't afford to get this wrong in the culture that we live in today. And and if we are known by our love, then we have to be as clear as possible in conveying that love. And a huge portion of that practically speaking isn't just having love in our heart. Right. It's how it's conveyed, and that is people skills.
Speaker 1:That's so good. And so often, and I think this goes back to let's talk about some of the barriers. I think a lot of us, when it comes to our personality, and we'll label it personality. This is we'll say this. This is just who I am.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:I'm gonna I'm gonna be authentic. Right. I'm keeping it real. This is who I am. But what we don't realize is that, yes, there's giftings and personalities and things God has created us and given us, but there's a whole area of learning to connect and relate and love others well that we have to learn.
Speaker 1:Right. And some of us have
Speaker 2:to unlearn. Exactly. And this personality that we're talking about is actually the way that I've learned to show up in the world. Not necessarily the way I was born. Sometimes it's maybe 20% the way you were born, 10% you're wiring, but 80 to 90% the way that you learned to show up in the world through your family of origin, through your circumstances in life, through your childhood, through the pain, through the suffering, through the bullying, through the hardships.
Speaker 2:And exactly what you said, sometimes what these ingredients really mean is us unlearning before we learn. Taking out the old, the stuff that's not serving us. What served us in one season of life, being shy, being quiet, being aggressive, can sabotage us in another season. Maybe it served us back then because we didn't want attention because if we got attention, we would get picked on. Or we didn't want dad to notice us because he was an alcoholic.
Speaker 2:And if we spoke up, we would be hurt. So it served me in one season to be quiet, to pull back, to be shy, to to joke too much, you know, whatever it is. Right. But now it sabotages me if I don't face it and own it and start to heal from it and figure out, well, why did I even learn this? Is it healthy?
Speaker 2:Is it aligned with the holy spirit? Is it aligned with the template of truth Right. Or with my trauma? So good. Is it aligned with truth or my trauma?
Speaker 2:Talk about that. Yeah. So often we function in ways that we think is our personality, but it's actually trauma response.
Speaker 1:Because so many people are living in pain and they don't realize why. Exactly. And they may have even anesthetized it for so long that they don't recognize it as pain, some people, but it's a lid. It's a lid on relationships at work and colleagues. It's a lid at home, in your marriage, the potential that's there.
Speaker 1:Right. It's a lid with your children and your legacy. So this is a worthy, worthy conversation, and it it just it's profound. And even just this piece about personality being much of it, potentially, a trauma response.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:That's mind blowing to think of it in that way.
Speaker 2:It is. And it just makes you so aware of the importance of being aligned with the spirit of God. Like, these aren't just skills that we learn and check them off the list. This is an alignment with who God wants me to be and how he wants me to function in this world. And really, as you know, Susan, the process of healing is synonymous with sanctification.
Speaker 2:The more we become like Jesus, the more we're healed. The more we heal, the more we become like Jesus. And I think this is a good segue into one of the barriers, which is triggers. Yeah. Like, we live in such a trigger, happy culture.
Speaker 2:Very offended. We're very offended. Oh, yes. Super easily. Very easily.
Speaker 2:You know, you see it in marriage. You see it on the internet. You see it in friendships. People get offended by things. And when they get offended, we learn that you just cut it out of your life.
Speaker 2:Don't be if something offends you, if something triggers you, cut it out of your life. You don't need it. Don't waste your time on that. A book triggers you, throw it in the trash. Pastor triggers you, don't go to that church again.
Speaker 2:A friend triggers you, I'm done with them. And we just walk away from the things that trigger us instead of looking in at why am I feeling this way? What's going on inside of me? And you see it the most in marriage. You see it the most in the closest relationships that you have out.
Speaker 2:Always say that marriage is a mirror to your childhood wounds. Wow. It's like, God is shining the mirror of like, look where you need to heal. We don't see it that way. We see it as you are hurting me.
Speaker 2:And many times that's the truth. I mean, people do hurt us. When I think of triggers, I think of a time when I was leaving the house. I have four kids. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And when you're trying to leave the house with four kids, it's like an Olympic event. I feel like it should be a part of the Olympics Just to see how fast you can do it without forgetting anything or anyone. Or the circus. Circus. Circus is probably more like it.
Speaker 2:And so I'm leaving the house. I'm I've got all the kids until I'm like, come on guys, get your shoes. And I'm not paying attention, and I hit my shoulder on a coat rack that's, like, sticking out in the laundry room on the way out. Yeah. And it was like, oh, that's gonna leave a bruise.
Speaker 2:And it certainly like, it was throbbing. And later that day, I had this black and blue mark on my shoulder.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So day goes on, and my husband comes home, and he comes over and he's like, hi, hon. Gives me a hug. And I'm like, like, pushed him away. Yeah. You did it hurts.
Speaker 2:It hurts. You know? And triggers are the same way. It's a wound that he did not cause, but he pressed up against. And and emotional wounds are similar to these sore spots in that you might push up against my sore spot and it hurts and I feel offended.
Speaker 2:Right. I feel inadequate. I feel embarrassed. I feel insecure. I feel unprioritized.
Speaker 2:I feel neglected. I am hurt by you. You know, you could have said something hurtful. But then the question is, is the whole wound your fault? Or is there something a little bit deeper?
Speaker 2:And I always say that triggers are a sign that there's more healing to be received. Triggers are God's way of revealing exactly what he wants to heal. Especially when we find ourselves triggered by similar things. When our eyes are wide open and we're looking for patterns, it's like every time I feel inadequate. Like, hey, Susan, maybe you could edit this paper a little bit.
Speaker 2:I didn't love the opening. And you're like, I feel so offended by that. Well, why? Why does the feeling of inadequacy, for example, I'm just making that up.
Speaker 1:Come with feedback. Exactly. Why?
Speaker 2:And so it requires us to dig a little deeper when we have an exaggerated emotional response. That's what a trigger is. It's not just any emotional response. It's an exaggerated rejection. Maybe you're on a dating app and the guy says, nah.
Speaker 2:I don't really feel like going on a date, and and it destroys you. Why? There's more there. Why is there such an exaggerated your husband says, yeah. I'm not a fan of that new rug you bought.
Speaker 2:And you're like devastated. Like, I worked so hard and and I I thought I was good at this and he doesn't even care. Why does that why are you so why is there such an emotional response to that? God reveals what he wants to heal. But typically, we're like, you are rude.
Speaker 2:You are the problem. But what about healing what's going on inside of me first?
Speaker 1:That's so good. And and when it comes to that trauma and what needs to be healed inside of me first, something I've found and that I believe the scriptures just are so clear on is that those things that have happened to us that become a trigger or become that bruise that if you touch it, I'm gonna respond more. It also partners with a situation inside my soul that I have regardless of my circumstances. That situation of sin, you talk about it, that that's a standalone traumatic thing. It's it's something in us that everybody's battling.
Speaker 1:So like even someone listening right now, you may say to yourself, well, I don't have trauma. Because sometimes trauma, we think of it as just in extreme cases. And that's very real. And many of us listening have had severe bad things happen to us. But also, just being a human being is traumatic.
Speaker 1:It is. Literally. My own sin is enough for me to have to be dealing with on the regular and
Speaker 2:it's You're right. Impact is traumatic. Much less the sin of others and
Speaker 1:all of that. Right. And so all of those things can be barriers because as as we started this piece saying, I think the natural instinct, and you said it you said it, is I want pain relief so I'll cut
Speaker 2:you out. Yes.
Speaker 1:I don't wanna deal with it, so I'm gonna it's your fault. I'm gonna blame them because it's too painful to look inside. And those are barriers to the potential God has for us, for the
Speaker 2:freedom that he has for us. And ironically, even though we're trying to avoid pain, we end up living hurt instead of living healed. Ugh. You know? Instead of facing the wound and tending to the wound, we cover it up.
Speaker 2:We push through. But you live more hurt that way than if you actually face it and heal it and let God do what he's gonna do in your life and in your heart and in your spirit and in your past and in your present and in your future. And God is in the business of healing. Like, that's what he does. He invites us into healing.
Speaker 2:By his wounds, we are healed. We can get to step into that healing. And even, you know, back to triggers. One of the chapters in People Skills is all about triggers. And I think going back to that chapter in Matthew that says, first remove the plank out of your own eye.
Speaker 2:There's another phrase that's really important. Then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye. This doesn't mean that my brother never has a speck that I need to confront, you know? Hey, maybe you could say the way that you gave me that feedback was really harsh and it hurt my feelings. I'm not saying there's not a time and place to remove the speck from your brother's eye.
Speaker 2:The time and place though is after you've healed. After you've removed the plank. After you've realized how much of this sore spot is me. And I always say it's probably eighty twenty. It's probably eighty twenty.
Speaker 2:Like, there's work here that has to be done. And then I can come to you and say, hey. I need you to to to help me with this by doing it a little differently, doing it better.
Speaker 1:As you were saying that that verse, it's it's so interesting because by default, the other person in your life has a plank too, but my responsibility isn't their plank.
Speaker 2:You're
Speaker 1:right. My responsibility is after that healing in me and I've first gone to my own plank, I can deal with maybe the speck or talk about the speck, but we all have to own our plank.
Speaker 2:You're right.
Speaker 1:We have to own it. So these barriers are real. What would you tell the person when you talk about how sometimes it's easier, we just choose to live with the pain. Yeah. It's more pain
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Rather than freedom. When whenever we
Speaker 2:talk about counseling, I I think a response I commonly hear Yeah. Is, Debra, the work of healing is hard.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah.
Speaker 2:And I agree with that. But my response is usually, yes, the work of healing is hard, but living unhealed is so much harder Because it starts to impact everything you touch. And then everything you touch becomes unhealed. Unhealed marriage, unhealed relationship with my children, unhealed relationship at work, unhealed interactions with the Lord because I'm living in shame, not freedom. Like, it starts to seep into everything, and that is much harder, much more of a burden than the work of healing upfront.
Speaker 1:When we've heard this comment probably flying around on social media, right, choose your heart. Yeah. Let's choose our heart. And so I wanna get to some of those ingredients because they just tug at me. I'm I love some of the things that you're sharing.
Speaker 1:What would you say to the person who's saying, okay. I hear the case that you're making. For me, looking at the you know, myself, for me, really examining my people skills, but more so examining my soul and and dealing with the trauma, dealing with the challenges. But how what would be their first step? How how do they do that?
Speaker 1:That's the case for doing it. But what would you say if you were just encouraging them to take a first step?
Speaker 2:Well, exactly like you said, look for patterns. Look for patterns. You know, where are the times where you have the biggest emotional response? Where are the times that you struggle most with your interpersonal relationships? Because usually that's X marks the spot.
Speaker 2:And you'll find a pattern of insecurity, inadequacy, fear of rejection, something that's underneath that that's holding you back. So we're always wanting to look for patterns. When somebody comes into my office, the first thing I'll have them do is look for patterns. Tell me what's going on now. What are you struggling with now?
Speaker 2:And then let's look for patterns of different times in your life where you struggled with that, different seasons, so that we can kind of begin digging and uncovering what God wants to heal to break this pattern.
Speaker 1:That's so, so good. So ingredients. There are so many, and you may have to say some of them again. But briefly, let's talk about this one because you kind of have already hit on it by the nature of what you've shared. Humility.
Speaker 1:It's so crucial. It's even what you said at the beginning when we're when our first response is all the other people that need this book. Right. Right. That's a lid.
Speaker 1:Right. Humility.
Speaker 2:And it starts with a healthy view of self and a healthy view of God, and a healthy view of others. It's funny because how you define humility matters. That's good. If you think of humility as like pushing yourself down, it's gonna be really hard to want humility.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah.
Speaker 2:But that's not what humility is. Humility is allowing the Lord to be the one to elevate you. It's seeing your value and the value of others and realizing that they are just as valuable. To me, humility is a proper understanding of my value.
Speaker 1:That's good.
Speaker 2:Rather than I am not valuable. I shouldn't neglect myself, ignore myself, put myself last. That's not humility. And so we wanna make sure that even in an interaction, if I really truly see your value, it's gonna change the way I interact with you. If that's my focus of like, you are so valuable in Christ to me.
Speaker 2:It's gonna change how I interact with you. And and the goal, even as you're talking, I'm gonna be leaning in and listening because you're so valuable. I wanna receive what you have to say. And so even humility is a people skill and unpacking the wrong things we've learned about humility, replacing them with the right things. These these right reframes so that we have a proper understanding of what it really means to be humble person.
Speaker 1:It's seeing ourselves correctly, like you're saying, and seeing God correctly. I've heard it said, and I love this phrase, that the ground is level at the foot of the cross. Yeah. And just when you see people and you're not trying to be above or below
Speaker 2:them Exactly.
Speaker 1:It's just I engage with you
Speaker 2:in that manner. And interestingly enough, if you see yourself above them, you have bad people skills. If you see yourself below them, you will also have bad people skills. It's because sometimes it's like, well, just put them above me. But then I feel insecure, inadequate.
Speaker 2:I don't feel like I have anything to offer. So I'm not serving them. I'm pulling back. I'm being shy. But if they're below me and I'm above them, then I am just focused on me and not focused on them.
Speaker 2:And it's unbalanced either way. And so when it when it's unbalanced, when our perspective is unbalanced, it shifts how we interact with people.
Speaker 1:Right. Right. And it's I think you one of your topics, this kind of feeds into this, I think is fear of people. Yeah. So let's talk about
Speaker 2:pleasing is the acceptable version. Like, it's like, oh, I'm a people pleaser.
Speaker 1:I don't I don't fear that.
Speaker 2:Like saying, I'm an idolater. Like, I just care about people more than god. No.
Speaker 1:And we just say it so, like, casually. So benign.
Speaker 2:But that's not a good thing.
Speaker 1:Not benign at all. No. So talk about that one for a minute because I do believe we try to dumb that down. We try to make it, you know, tolerable to be a people pleaser because it's counterfeit love.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And it's coming from a different motive.
Speaker 2:You're right.
Speaker 1:So how do you see that play out with people being a barrier in their skills with one another?
Speaker 2:I think sometimes we assume that people pleasing is actually godly in that we care about people and we care about what they think and we wanna put them first. But the motive is actually self. It's I wanna be loved. I wanna be needed. I wanna be approved of.
Speaker 2:I wanna be liked. I want to be wanted. So really the root is still me. And so that's where it starts to really affect our relationships. And I always say it's not about liking people less or pleasing people less.
Speaker 2:It's about pleasing God more. It's about wanting his approval more than anything else. Being aligned with his calling on our life and not the obligations and expectations of people. Because when we're aligned with him, we're gonna do it better. It's interesting though, because people pleasing happens so subtly.
Speaker 2:Yeah. You know? And you can be a really good person who struggles with people pleasing. I think of the firstborns in the family. You know?
Speaker 2:Behind every people pleaser was once a parent pleaser. And I'm a firstborn, and I know what it's like to wanna fill in the gaps and be responsible and be all things to all people and meet the needs. But if you're not careful, that slowly turns into the goal of pleasing man rather than pleasing God. And they become your measuring stick rather than him. And even just that small shift in a degree shifts the direction of the boat completely.
Speaker 2:You end up in a completely different place. And so it's important for us to kind of own and take inventory of where we're at with that and where that may have began for us. If we struggle to say no, if we struggle to be honest with people, if we struggle to express our needs, if we struggle with boundaries, those are all good signs that maybe we do struggle with people pleasing.
Speaker 1:Right. Little little the little white lies that can be one of those examples that points to, hey. Why am I doing this? Right. Why am I telling these little white lies?
Speaker 1:Not being honest. It's so many different examples that you just said. So that's huge. Thank you for talking about that. Let's talk about the the communication styles.
Speaker 1:Yes. I really am curious to hear your take on just the different communication styles. Yeah. How that can either be a lid or
Speaker 2:So the the easiest way to categorize this is to think about how you would act if you were in a restaurant and somebody brought you the meal that you didn't order. It was the wrong meal. Something was off in the Okay? So there's four types of personalities. Four types of communication styles.
Speaker 2:The first would be the aggressive. It's like, this isn't what I ordered. Yeah. I don't I don't want this. Take it back.
Speaker 2:Switch it. And I want my money back too. Like like quickly, you know? It's aggressive. Right.
Speaker 2:It's honoring my version of the story, but not honoring yours. Okay? So think of it that way. Then we move on to passive. Oh, it's fine.
Speaker 2:It's no big deal. Like, she's probably had a long day. The kitchen's so busy. There's so many people in here. I'll be fine with this meal.
Speaker 2:It's no big deal. I'm not gonna say anything. Like, it's not worth it. I'm honoring their version of the story. Busy day.
Speaker 2:Lot going on. There's the kitchen's busy. I'm I'm honoring their version of the story. I'm not honoring mine. That's passive communication style.
Speaker 2:And then we move into passive aggressive communication style, which is I'm not gonna say anything. But then I'm gonna act rude when the waitress or waiter comes. I'm gonna be like, yeah, everything's fine. I'm gonna be short. I'm gonna leave a zero tip.
Speaker 2:You know? I'm gonna be rude. I'm gonna slam my door out the way. I'm gonna leave a terrible review on Yelp and say they had horrible service, but I didn't say anything. So I didn't honor my version of the story.
Speaker 2:I didn't honor them and their version either. I didn't honor either of us with passive aggressive. So assertive communication is communication that honors me and you. I honor my version of the story and your version of the story. I can communicate with kindness and clarity and respect.
Speaker 2:Hey, I just noticed. I know you're having a really busy day. I can tell you're working so hard, but this order wasn't what I expected. Would you please change it out for something different? I'm honoring you and your version, but I'm also honoring myself.
Speaker 2:And if you think about it, that's a small example at a restaurant. Great one. Think about how we do life. Do I have a tendency to honor everybody else's version and not my own? Because that's gonna lead me down to a passive way of life.
Speaker 2:And you can only do that so much before you either implode or explode. Know? Or aggressive and passive aggressive, which pushes people away. Yeah. End up breaking relationships.
Speaker 2:Know, you don't you don't people don't come near you when you act like that. Right. Or do I live assertively, being able to honor you and honor what God has given me, honor my voice and your voice, even if we disagree? And so you wanna think about it that way. I think when you think about it in terms of honor Yeah.
Speaker 2:It helps you do it better.
Speaker 1:Well, and I've never heard honor tied to those examples, and I love the power of that. And it's so true. Honoring their story and honoring your story and honoring God
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:In your in your interaction. That is beautiful. And I think being able to examine what is my communication style in general. Right. And that I love, again, visual.
Speaker 1:So the restaurant is a perfect starter point. But just how do you how does that translate into your home? Exactly. Because I used be a waitress long before I was a counselor, and I waited tables at so many
Speaker 2:different know. You see all kinds of personality types.
Speaker 1:I would tell myself, man, they're taking that home with them. Yeah. They're taking that whatever just happened there. I'm so sad because they all have to go home with that. Right.
Speaker 1:I get to be done with my shift. Right. So it's a really powerful thought for us to look at ourselves and to just examine what's my go to.
Speaker 2:And and also where did it come from? I think when we when we dig into people skills, you'll you'll start here, and then it'll kinda set take you down to, okay, what what are the roots of this communication style? When did it develop? Why did it develop? The things that served me in one season sabotage me in another.
Speaker 2:So let me get to the root of where this began serving me and why and why I continue to act like this. And what are the underlying beliefs that keep me quiet? Or the underlying beliefs that make me feel like I have to assert myself. I have to be aggressive. I have to protect myself.
Speaker 2:Self protection. Where did that come from? So it it requires you to do some work with the holy spirit or with a counselor Yeah. To go a little bit deeper.
Speaker 1:Well, and I wanted to say that sparks my mind, and I'll say it to the person listening today. There are a lot of books and they're great books that give us technical skills on communication, something like communication, something like even people skills. But what you're doing is so utterly valuable because you're not just addressing the symptoms, you're taking us to where it's coming from. Yeah. And so often we may hear the analogy, look, you can mow your lawn all day, but if you don't do deal with the weeds, they just pop right back up.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:They're gonna pop up faster than the grass will.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:You gotta dig them out. And so I am so grateful for this resource and just for your voice that's helping people, yes, learn the skills we all need, refresh on them. That's the other thing. You may know it, but doing it is the harder part. So you have to constantly refresh and recommit, but then getting to the root of where am I breaking bad?
Speaker 1:Where am I not doing it? And so thank you for that. It's just a huge thing. Anything that you would just say to the audience before we go, people listening to encourage them?
Speaker 2:Yeah. You know, I think going back to the reminder of what are my ingredients to own and thinking about the power that that could have in all of your relationships. Think of your most difficult relationship right now. I know we can all think of our most difficult relationship. What can I begin to do to change the ingredients that I am bringing to the table that will change this entire recipe?
Speaker 2:What does that look like? And and that might mean setting more boundaries. That might mean speaking up more. There's so many different ways that that would look. But what it what can I begin to do to shift the ingredients that will shift this entire recipe?
Speaker 1:That's so good. So good. God, let me look at me first and let and show me first and then let it work its way out.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Amen.
Speaker 1:Oh, thank you for just your time, but more so thank you for what you're doing and how God you're allowing God to use your voice to help so so so many of us. Really grateful. So you're gonna wanna tune in next time, and, you're gonna wanna go check out, like I said, Debra's books, mini books that are just gonna help you. They're tools in the toolbox that God can use in your life as he's transforming us for the better. So join us next time.
Speaker 1:We can't wait to have another conversation on The Overflow.