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Even the most prominent voices in Sales were crap at Sales once.
Join bestselling Author, Founder and Sales Coach Mark Ackers as he speaks with successful Sales professionals about their early Sales struggles, and how they overcame these challenges to become the people they are today.
mark ackers: Welcome to the
podcast. Here's a sneak peek of
what's coming up in today's
episode. Did you used to be crap
at Sales?
sarah brazier: Anything that you
could possibly struggle with as
an SDR I did because I remember
having a phone call, having
like, a 20 minute long
conversation with someone, and
the meeting not converting to my
manager in a one on one, and
saying, Can you tell me what I
did wrong? And he hit play, and
he listened for a little bit,
and then he hit pause, and he
said, You know what, I don't
have time for this. He just
believed in me so little that he
didn't even think that I was
worth taking the time to coach.
But that's how bad I was at
sales. I couldn't even get
coaching from my manager. How
mark ackers: did that make you
feel?
sarah brazier: I was pissed as
fuck, and I thought I just need
to find a place where that is
not the culture, because I can't
get the coaching I need. If I
could just master the basic
skills, then I knew I could take
like my work ethic and my
creativity and be great. You
mark ackers: went to Gong. Did
you know at the time what kind
of rocket ship you were boarding
when you took that job?
sarah brazier: No, I had no
idea. But the the pitch of Gong
at the time was like, replicate
your top performers, turn your C
players into a players. I was
like, Well, I'm an F player. So
I asked in my interview to the
CRO I was like, my one of my big
concerns is that you have such a
young manager, are you sure that
he's going to be able to enable
me. Ryan longfield, who's the
CRO of Gong at the time, said,
Yeah, I am. And I said, why? And
he said, because he's just that
good, and he was so right.
Tanner is the best manager I've
ever had. But also,
mark ackers: you create a
personal brand. I remember
seeing you come online this
video. I don't think I've hired
an actor here. Well,
sarah brazier: I was an actor.
No, I
mark ackers: know, but that's
what I've always thought.
They've hired an actor in a
sales role. But do you realize
just how much it would take off?
sarah brazier: What happened
was,
mark ackers: hello and welcome
to another episode of I used to
be crap at sales. My name is
Mark Ackers, co founder and head
of sales at mysalescoach. And
today I am joined by this is a
lot. This a former foreign
correspondent, a former Speech
and Drama teacher, a former
actor, founding coach of SDR
nation. Possibly, this might be
your biggest hint. Possibly
Gong's biggest ever celebrity
employee, an advisor at no less
than five SaaS companies. At the
time of recording, just over
80,000 LinkedIn followers has
increased by two and a half 1000
since yesterday. The co founder
of Dimmo. But most importantly,
and a big congratulations to
soon to be mother. If you
haven't guessed it, by now, it's
Sarah brazier. Sarah big welcome
to the I used to be crap at sales
sarah brazier: podcast. Thanks
for having me. I'm excited to be
here.
mark ackers: Let's kick off. We
were yes, no questions, Sarah,
did you used to be crap at
sales?
sarah brazier: Yeah, of course,
no doubt.
mark ackers: So let's, let's get
into your background. Really
interesting background. You
know, I've been aware of you for
maybe four or five years,
obviously prominent voice on
LinkedIn, but only when I really
looked at your profile did I see
a really interesting background
that just I wasn't expecting. I
believe a key to any elite sales
person is being able to story
tell. And I saw that you were a
news director for what I believe
is a student radio station, and
then a current foreign
correspondent for a couple of
months in in a beautiful city of
Rome, and just tell me a little
bit about that, like headline
level, but kind of what
transferable skills you think
you picked up in those those
roles there to help you get to
where you are today?
sarah brazier: Sure, so my
degree is in broadcast
journalism, so both the foreign
correspondent and the news
director that was for both our
college radio station and then
for our TV station. And I think
there are things that are used
literally every day, and that is
one writing succinctly in the
active voice that's like huge
when you're trying to
communicate and sell, especially
when prospecting. And then two,
it's the takeaway. Everything
you should be able to tell the
entire story in your headline is
sort of the rule that I was
given as a as a student in
journalism, and so in sales,
that's basically the same thing.
You want to be able to help your
buyer make decisions very
quickly. And you want to give
them the, you know, the five
cent takeaway, the 1000 foot
view, whatever it is, really
quick, that snapshot. And then
you can dive deeper into
whatever else you know when
you're going into your metrics
and your impact statements and
doing your demo or whatever. But
yeah, just really succinct,
succinct communication, whether
it's written or verbal, which
that wasn't a very succinct
answer. So I didn't
mark ackers: want to say that,
but I was, I was what he was.
Was telling a story. I was
listening. But I see a lot of
sales reps go wrong there. You
know, you ask for a pitch, or
what do you do? And you get free
form. Your answers and you're
not very clear. So I can
certainly see that, if you
mastered that very early on, how
that would have helped you. And
then eight years as an actor on
stage live, what's the biggest
thing that you starred in? Oh,
sarah brazier: I don't know. I
think probably one of the shows
I did was called Women in
jeopardy, and it ran for a
really long time in Walnut
Creek, which is right outside of
San Francisco, and that was at
like a regional theater, so that
was probably the place, but that
paid me the most to act, and we
consistently had a full house. I
also did speech and debate when
I was in high school and in
college, and so the final round
of my national, national
performance for Speech and
Debate. In high school, you
perform in front of 5000 people,
like the whole tournament shows
up to watch you. So that's like
the biggest audience that I've
performed in front of.
mark ackers: How'd you find
that?
sarah brazier: I mean, I think I
went I think I went into a
completely different sort of Zen
state of almost out of body
experience. I don't think I've
ever had that much adrenaline in
my body ever again. It was wild.
It was like dream state, but
it's real. There's a video of it
somewhere on the internet. Yeah,
it's great. And
mark ackers: obviously, like
another key to SaaS, I believe,
is being able to play that role.
And whilst we all want to put
our best foot forward, we also
want to be authentic. But there
is always a mask there,
particularly on a discovery call
and a demo where you are trying
to best present yourself. And
again, I imagine having that
background as an actor for eight
years would have been helpful
for you, unless you think that's
wrong?
sarah brazier: No, I think
that's right. But I think the
thing that people don't
necessarily connect to acting
right away that is the most
influential in how you run your
deals is is that you are looking
at everything, you're looking at
the situation from all different
kinds of perspectives, and you
get really good at putting
yourself in your buyers shoes.
So in a show, you are given a
piece of paper with words on it,
and you have to lift those words
off the page, breathe life into
them and make a one dimensional
concept into a living,
breathing, believable human
being that where the audience
will suspend their disbelief and
go on a journey with you. And to
do that, you have to say, Well,
I have to take off my Sarah
Brasher every day 2024 hat, and
I have to go put on cecilies
hat. And The Importance of Being
Earnest, where she's 16 years
old and in love with someone
she's never met. And, you know,
wander down that path and try to
justify why she's saying what
she's saying, understand why
she's saying what she's saying.
Know why she's doing these
things and the dynamics of
everybody else in that scene.
And so you start thinking about,
what does this person really
want? Why do they want it? Why
would they do that thing? Why
would they say that thing?
What's the subtext going on? And
all of that is really breaking
down the psychological concepts
that are happening in building a
character. And you do the exact
same thing when you are in
sales. You go, what would compel
my buyer to make a decision, to
move faster? Why are they even
looking at making this purchase?
What are they potentially not
telling me, what's the subtext
to whatever they're doing or
whatever they're saying on the
call, and you're trying to
figure out, you know, 80% of the
sales cycle happens when you the
seller are not in the room, and
so you're trying to figure out
what's going on behind the
scenes. And I think those that
is, like, the most applicable
aspect to me, from theater to
sales.
mark ackers: So I think that's a
fascinating answer, and that is
the challenge lots of sales
people face. They're selling to
a persona or a role that they've
just never done. So how do you
put that hat on and imagine what
they're going through, what
they're trying to solve,
particularly in SDR, right? So
if you take an SDR that joins a
company, they could be speaking
to marketing managers, people
that run FinTech firms like they
don't know that role, and it can
be really hard to put that on.
And even when you start with an
IE, if you're selling to CFOs,
for example, CROs not done that
role. And that can be really
hard. So I imagine that whilst
you could get your head around
what you had to do, there was
still a big learning curve as to
the people that you were selling
to?
sarah brazier: Sure. Well, I
think, yeah, no. I mean, so in
theater, as an actor, the things
that you want are the audience
to love you. You want them to
laugh at your jokes. You want a
big applause at the end. You You
know, actors are selfish. You
know, we want, we want
attention. We're big hands, and
that's okay, like, as long as we
know that that's okay, that's
something we can accept. And we
want to do something that's
meaningful, that moves the
audience, and they'll remember
that's not what my character
wants in the show. So I have to,
you know, put away what Sarah
wants so you can. Translate that
to an SDR, I want to book a
meeting, I want to hit quota, I
want to make money. Those are
the things that I want. That's
not what my buyer wants. That's
not what my prospect wants. So
instead, I go, Okay, what would
that person want? Well, to
understand what they want, I
need to understand their world.
So that's where something like
when I sold Gong, it was very
helpful, because you could go
and you could listen to a
prospect talking about the
things that they want, talking
about why they're making a
purchase. You could go listen to
Customer Success calls. You
could really try to get into
their world. And when you're
prepping for a role in theater,
you either if you're playing an
everyday person, you know, if
you're playing a cop, you might
go interview a cop and ask them
about their day to day. If you
are, you know, if you get to be
like an Angelina Jolie or, you
know, someone who's famous, you
definitely have the privilege of
being able to go shadow people
in their jobs. But you're doing
research, and you're trying to
understand what the world looks
like. And you do the exact same
thing in theater. You're, you
know, you're, I'm sitting down
and I'm reading about about what
someone's life is like, and I'm
just doing a lot of imagining.
So as an SDR, that's kind of
what I do. It's like, what does
this person want? Why would they
want that? What's going on in
their lives, what's making them
pull their hair out? What are
their objectives? How are they
going to get there? And the more
you ask that, and then you and
you ask people, you ask your
prospect, well, what are you
trying to do? Well, why are you
trying to do that? And if you
come at at the role with a lot
of curiosity, and you're not
focused so much on booking a
meeting right away, then you can
have a much better conversation,
and it's probably going to
convert, because then you can
start connecting the dots
between their pain points and
what they're doing on a daily
basis, and the efficiencies that
you can bring them with whatever
you're selling.
mark ackers: I mean, it's a
great answer, like,
particularly, again, the
storytelling and the analogy. It
works so well. I think that,
again, is where I see sales rep
struggle, is disconnecting from
the outcome. And I think that
that is the challenge in a role
where it's target based, it's
commission based, it's
performance based. If you have a
couple of bad months, you can be
out of a job. But the secret is
disconnecting from that outcome,
and, as you say, trying to focus
on what the prospect wants. It's
not about you, it's about them
and their world and and their
problems. But I've never heard
it described with that analogy
that I think works so well. Um,
so you mentioned Gong there that
that's the first sort of notable
SaaS job on, uh, what is a very
busy LinkedIn page. Most people
don't want to be in SaaS like
they don't want to go and do a
job, particularly when you
really break down what an SDR
role is, that doesn't sound
appealing to many people. Was it
a conscious choice of yours to
take a SaaS role, an SDR role,
for a SaaS company? Or how did
you how did you end up there?
sarah brazier: Yeah, so I
actually worked at a different
company before I worked at Gong,
and I just didn't put it on my
resume, because I was so bad at
sales that there was no point in
being like, yeah, I worked at
this company for nine months and
never hit quota. That's the real
story. That's the whereas crap
at sales. So the lead up to
getting to that job is I was in
the Bay Area and I was acting,
but I was also working as a
barista, and I was also working
as a speech and debate coach in
the evenings at an after school
program, and I was working as a
temp worker at Optimizely at
their front desk. And I was
doing all of that because I
needed health insurance and I
needed to pay rent, and you
don't make a ton of money acting
because the jobs are so few and
far between. And unless you're
getting union jobs, then you
know you could get paid 500
bucks for 20 hours a week across
two months, and that's what
you're going to get. And you
know, it's definitely a labor of
love. So that's the situation I
was in. I was working 80 to 90
hours a week, seven days a week,
doing I'd wake up at four
o'clock in the morning to get to
the train, to be at the barista,
to be to be at Phil's, the place
where I was a barista, at 430 so
we could get everything set up
to open at five, and then I'd
make coffee until like 11
o'clock. I'd jog over to
optimize Lee's office. I'd use
their shower, and then at 1130
I'd be at the front desk, and I
work the front desk until the
end of day, so like 435 and then
I'd pack up, I would go home,
put on the clothes I was going
to wear for rehearsal and eat a
quick bite, and then jump in my
car, drive out to the East Bay,
and then rehearse until 11
o'clock at night, and that was
my schedule. And then on
weekends, I would rehearse, but
I wouldn't have to barista or
anything. So I thought, Man,
this really isn't sustained.
Bowl. I'm kind of tired. I'm
getting kind of fat because I
don't have any time to exercise.
I literally use my lunch break
to go in the meditation exercise
room at Optimizely, I was very
lucky. They had showers, and I
throw up, I throw a ball against
the wall for 20 minutes, and
then shower real quick, and then
I'd eat my lunch at my desk. But
yeah, I was, like, just, I
think, like, the lack of sleep
and the stress levels, I was,
like, not very healthy, and I
was totally exhausted. And I,
you know, was barely, I don't
even know if I was breaking even
to make rent. It was really
hard. And every day people would
walk past my desk who were
working these, you know, really
nice SaaS jobs making way more
money than I was and working far
fewer hours. So I would I, you
know, I would just say, hey,
what do you do to people? And
they say, Oh, I'm the Chief
Marketing Officer. And say, I'd
really love to learn more about
marketing. Can Can I grab your
ear for a minute sometime? And
they'd say, Sure, and then we'd
go get coffee during a lunch
break, or I get someone to cover
me. And I talked to a bunch of
different people, and one of
those individuals was Jim Jones,
who ran enablement and
Optimizely. And he said, I coach
sales people essentially. And I
said, that's great. I think I'd
be a great salesperson. Everyone
tells me so. And he said, Great,
read this book, and he gave me
to sell as human and he said,
when you're done reading that
book, come talk to me and let me
know if you want to do sales.
And so I read the book, and I
said, I finished it. We got
coffee, and then he just started
introducing me to SDRs that he
had mentored over, you know, the
course of his career. And he
knew a ton of people. He knows a
ton of people. He's really good
at his job, and I shadowed some
SDRs at Optimizely in my free
time, I took a bunch of notes,
and I started interviewing, and
so I got referred into a company
through that networking that Jim
really helped me do. He helped
me edit my resume. He helped me
edit my resume. He helped me
make my LinkedIn look good and
and that's how I got my first
sales job. But it was really out
of I was desperate, I was
hungry, I wanted to make enough
money to put some in savings,
and I knew that if I could just
get my foot in the door, then I
could be good at sales, because
all of the skills that I had
been building up until that
point, I think translate really
well storytelling, being
outgoing, being gritty, when
you've got a lot of door
slamming in your face, which I
think there's way more rejection
in theater than there is in in
being an SDR, so, yeah, that's
how I ended up in sales. It was
a conscious choice, but it was a
conscious choice made out of
desperation.
mark ackers: And, I mean, yeah,
again, I was just listening to
everything. Said that so much
that we could break down. But it
feels like you identified what
you wanted and you made it
happen, which, again, is the key
to SaaS, right? You you hunt
what you want, you make it
happen, and then it feels like
Jim Jones was important there,
so he gave you that book. How
long did it take to read? It was
such a busy schedule.
sarah brazier: Um, it took,
like, a week. I definitely
remember I flipped through some
some sections because I was
like, this is a little
redundant. Fortunately, it's a
short book, and thematically,
it's basically like everything
that I already knew, like at my
core, in tuned, which is selling
is not about convincing someone
that you're right, and selling
is not about reaching, you know,
you reaching your goals or your
targets. Selling is about
building a human connection and
solving a problem. And if you
can do that, then you're going
to wait make way more sales,
even though you have to put what
you want, which is to hit quota
and make a bunch of money, on
hold, and you have to decide
that what the customer wants is
more important than your goals.
But if you do that, you can
build trust. And I was reading
an article that about just
building, you know, building
trust and building and building
relationship is so important
because people remember and
align with people that they
like. So if you have two
teachers teaching a group of
students, and one teacher is a
big butt head, and the other
teacher all the kids love, the
kids are gonna remember and
like, be able to regurgitate the
information they learned from
the teacher they loved, versus
the teacher that they didn't
like at all. So yeah, so if
you're a jerk salesperson who's
been a jerk to your prospect,
you're gonna lose a lot of deals
because you're hunting, you're
you've got commission breath,
you're hunting what you want,
versus if you are really trying
to serve your customer, then
you're you're going to win more
opportunities.
mark ackers: Yeah, and they pick
up on that they know, with
commission breath questions
versus genuine curiosity to try
and help them get to the right
solution. So. So Jim Jones gives
you that book. You read it, sits
down as a coffee. You said he
then sort of coached you,
coached you for interviews,
LinkedIn, profile, etc. How
impactful was that coaching from
someone that had done it before
they had success in that role
and helped you? How? How
impactful was that for you and
your progression?
sarah brazier: Super. I mean, he
taught me. He's the first person
to teach me how to close an
interview. Hey, Mark, is there
any reason or any hesitation
that you have about moving me
forward in this process? I
wouldn't have thought to ask
that. And there are people who
will not hire you unless you ask
that question, because that
makes you a salesperson for an
entry level role. No, you don't.
I don't. I don't think that
should be your requirement. But
that does mean that that person
has done a little bit of
homework. So learning to ask
that question, getting coaching
on just like what makes a good
follow up email, editing my
resume to tell the story of I'm
a storyteller, I'm competitive,
I'm results driven. I am all of
those things. But how do you get
that onto a one sheet of paper
and make it look good when your
jobs have been nonprofit to
teaching to theater like, how do
you, you know, sew that all
together with a little bit of
baristas in between. So all of
that, I think, was really
important. But the most
important thing was that he was,
he was basically what a champion
is in a deal, he opened, he
opened doors for me, and he said
he went to people and said you
should talk to Sarah. She's got
potential. And if you have a
good champion in a deal, they're
going to do the exact same, same
thing. They're going to say,
you've got to talk to the
salesperson. You've got to look
at this tool. I think it could
really help us. It's got a lot
of potential. You just have to
hear them out. And he was
definitely that for me. And
mark ackers: was there a reason
he couldn't get you a job in
that company?
sarah brazier: I think I could
have gotten a job at Optimizely.
I don't think that they were
hiring as aggressively as some
other organizations. So there
were open opportunities where
people were willing to put me,
but, um, yeah, I think, I think
I probably could have gotten a
job there if I just waited a
little bit longer. Sounded
mark ackers: like you were.
You're too hungry for that first
role, and obviously you like
sarah brazier: or just literally
hungry.
mark ackers: So talk to me about
that role. Then that role is not
on your resume. It's not on your
LinkedIn. No need to name where
that company was, but you said
you were crap there. Tell me
about that nine month period and
what your struggles were,
sarah brazier: anything that you
could possibly struggle with as
an SDR, I did so everything from
I explained it. I remember going
into meetings and telling people
this, it's like, I know that
there's a way to do this. I know
there's a formula to these
conversations. I know there's,
there's, you know, there's,
there's got to be, like, a call.
There's got to be some kind of
tree, a logical tree that I can
follow when I'm on a cold call.
There's got to be some kind of
logical way to write these
emails that are compelling. I
don't know, can someone please
tell me? And no one really
could. So going somewhere where
people actually knew, like, what
what worked and what didn't, was
very, very helpful. But the
company, I think they, were
scaling super fast, and the SDR
team had been just a handful of
reps, maybe one or two months
before, and was that must had 50
plus reps by the time I left. So
in nine months, going from five,
you know, they 10x the size, um,
and so, yeah, I didn't know I
was making, I was making cold
calls, but I didn't know how to
handle them, aside from, you
know, an elevator pitch, and,
you know, ask asking for
permission to pitch, that was
about as far as I had. And I
didn't really know how to run,
like, ask discovery questions in
a cold call or objection handle
in a cold call to get to the
next thing, more importantly, I
was very unclear about who my
ICP was, and the business didn't
really know what their ICP was.
So you could, you know, the the
people that they told me to
prospect was anyone were selling
the company should, should,
should have been selling to
finance, but we were prospecting
into anybody who, like, could be
a front desk person, like
booking meetings and organizing
someone's calendar, like an
executive assistant to the CFO,
like that's like the breadth
that they were giving us as
potential people to call on. And
so that didn't feel particularly
logical to me, but I didn't know
how to articulate that, because
I didn't have the business
acumen to say, I don't think we
have the right ICP. I don't even
know what the word ICP meant or
the acronym. So, like not being
able to define who to call on,
and not being able to define why
someone would purchase the
product, because the benefit and
the marketing that we did really
talked about end user
experience, but the end user
benefit was not the same as why
a CFO would make a purchase. And
so I couldn't talk about why
CFOs would buy. I could only
talk about what the employees of
that company would experience as
a benefit. And it was very hard
for me to connect to the two,
because I didn't have the
business acumen and I didn't
have the knowledge of the ICP,
and I had just, I had a blank
canvas. So, yeah, I mean, I,
like, that was really confusing
to me, not knowing, like, basic
things around, how do I utilize
zoom info so I can actually get
a lead list and, like, get it
well, so I would spend like,
time just coming, I would like,
download these CSV files from
zoom info, and then be like,
manually deleting stuff and then
upload it to Salesforce. Like
huge, massive waste of time,
because I didn't understand how
to use the technology yet, which
I eventually figured out,
writing really marketing
sounding emails instead of
something that was really
prospect related, so really
broad, send it out, send out to
100 people the same email.
Instead of writing a why you why
now style email, or, you know,
whatever format you think of,
but writing a personalized email
about why you should care in
this exact moment. Yeah. I mean,
those are, like all the things
that SDRs do, and I didn't know
how to do any
mark ackers: of them. He saw a
link. Links to, I suppose, what
we were saying earlier, though,
you were tasked with trying to
get on the same page as a CFO in
that example, and you've never
done that role before. And that
can be the challenge, can't it?
So help me understand, Sarah,
when, when you're saying you
didn't know how to do any of
those things on a scale of one
to 1010. Being crap. How, how
crap were you in that role?
sarah brazier: I mean, I think
my manager would say I was like
500 but definitely, definitely
at least a 10. Um, yeah, I
remember like, and part of the
problem was that the business
had scaled too quickly. Because
I remember having a phone call,
having, like, a 20 minute long
conversation with someone, and
the meeting not converting. That
that call not converting. I was
like, how could I talk to
someone for 20 minutes? They
could tell me all these
problems, they could tell me all
their challenges, and then they
don't, they don't take a meeting
with the account executive. I
don't what did I do wrong? So I
remember taking that call to my
manager in a one on one and
saying, Hey, can you tell me
what I did wrong? And he said,
Well, what part of the call Do
you want to listen to? And I
said, I don't know, because I
don't know where I messed up. So
can we just listen to all of it?
And he hit play, and he listened
for a little bit, and then he
hit pause, and he said, You know
what, I don't have time for
this. Why don't you go find
someone else? And then we ended
our one on one early, and it was
like he I don't know if it was
he really didn't have time, or
he had at that point, he just
believed in me so little that he
didn't even think that I was
worth taking the time to coach.
But that's how bad I was at
sales. I couldn't even get
coaching from my manager to
figure out what went wrong in a
call.
mark ackers: How did that make
you feel like when he paused it
and said, Go and find someone
else. Don't have time. How did
that make you feel I was pissed
as fuck.
sarah brazier: I saw red. I
called my mom. I was like, This
is bullshit. What did your mom
say? My dad worked in sales my
whole life, and she said, there
are sales people. There are
sales managers who want to help
you succeed, but there are a lot
of people who are in the
profession that are out there
for themselves, and they only
want to do things that make them
look good. And this person
clearly doesn't think that you
can make him look good, so he's
not, he's not going to help you.
And I think that's true, and
it's not just in sales. There's
lots of there's lots of
different things. Having worked
in theater. There's very
exploitative people in theater
who, they will take a young
ingenue who wants to be on
stage, and they'll make you work
crazy hours and do crazy things.
I mean, you can, you can do some
research on it, but it's the
same deal. There's just like a
lot of there's there are people
like that. There are people who
will take advantage of you or
not care about you, or throw you
to the side when you're not
serving their purpose anymore.
And I thought I just need to
find a place where that is not
the culture, because I can't get
the coaching I need. I just
need, like, some basic
guidelines. I need a couple
curbs. I need someone to tell me
do this, not that once I could,
if I could just master the basic
skills that I knew I could take,
like my work ethic and my
creativity and be great. And I
told that to him. I said, I am a
na I'm a national champion in
speech and debate. I have been
in dozens of shows. I. I I was
one of the top ranked speakers
in the entire country. I can
talk in front of people, I can
tell stories, and I have a
history of success, and I don't
lose, and I'm losing right now,
and I need you to help me figure
out why I'm losing. And if you
can't do that, then I don't
really know what the point is.
What is it that you do here?
Which I probably shouldn't have
said, especially in that way,
but I was really mad by that
point in time. And this was
like, this is probably, like,
six or seven months into the
role, and and then I was like,
I'm just going to find somewhere
else to work, because whatever
it is that these people are
asking me to do, which was
basically like, you need to be
making 200 calls a day. Great, I
can make 200 calls a day, but I
still don't know who I'm
supposed to be calling on, and I
still don't know what I'm
supposed to say, and no one
seems to be able to have an
answer. Then they gave me, like
Arkansas as my territory,
Arkansas, and Maine and I was
selling something that you
really should be selling to,
like tech companies, like, I
don't know a single tech company
HQ in Arkansas. I'm pretty sure
the largest industry in Maine is
fishing. I don't think they're
gonna buy guys. So, yeah, I
mean, obviously I still get
worked up about it, because it
was just so, so illogical. And
if you pointed out the fact that
it doesn't make sense that
there's one SDR working all of
California, and there's a
different SDR working all of New
York, and you have 48 other
SDRs, and half of them are
working Oklahoma and Wisconsin,
but they all have the same quota
that the SDRs, who are working
the one SDR working California
and the one SDR working New
York, are going to wildly blow
their number out compared to the
ones in Wisconsin and Arkansas
that like, you just look at the
TAM. Because I didn't have the
word Tam, but I was like, just,
just look at zoom info. Just
look at the just look at the
companies on Zoom info. Um, but
no one wanted to hear me be
critical. No one want to solve
that problem. I was just I was
difficult.
mark ackers: Do you think you?
Do you think you were difficult?
No,
sarah brazier: I think I wasn't
difficult. I think I was
pointing out a problem. Yeah,
yeah. I was gonna say pointing
out a really obvious problem.
But, but they didn't have, they,
they didn't have the answers, or
they didn't have the agency. So
they weren't gonna, they weren't
gonna fix it, or they couldn't.
No one could explain to me why
territories were assigned the
way they were. No one really
knew. But also, like our
marketing team was sending out
again, I think they should have
been selling to CFOs. The
marketing team ran a campaign
where they sent out direct it
was a direct mail campaign. They
sent out flyers, and they said,
if you take a demo with us,
you'll get on $100 Amazon gift
card with no even little fine
print that said, if you're a
qualified buyer. And so I, I got
put on the inbound line, and I
was just talking to women who
worked the front desk at
dentist's office. I had a lot of
dentist office for some reason,
calling in wanting their $100
Amazon gift card when I run the
qualification criteria, and they
didn't do any of the things,
they didn't have the spend that
they needed to in order to
purchase the product. So it's
like, I'm sorry you can't watch
a demo because you'll never use
this. And then they get so mad
because they didn't get their
$100 Amazon gift card. Then you
go back to marketing and be
like, Hey, we don't have any
claws about disqualifying them,
so we gave away tons of $100
Amazon gift cards to front desk
ladies at dentist office. But I
was like, that doesn't really
make sense why we do that in the
first place. I feel like we
could do that differently. And I
was being difficult. I really
didn't understand marketing
exactly.
mark ackers: I know you're being
humble there. It doesn't sound
even difficult at all. You are
just trying to find solutions.
Obviously, we don't need to
dwell on him much like you say.
I can see you're still emotional
when you think about it. But
what's that manager doing right
now? Do you know?
sarah brazier: No, I don't. I
guess I could look them up on
LinkedIn and see but I think the
company kind of figured itself
out, and they decided we will
only talk to people in finance
and we'll only sell the CFOs.
And I was like, hmm, I wonder
who came up with that idea.
Well, it wasn't just me. I'm
sure there's a lot of people who
felt the same way, but I'm
mark ackers: sure, yeah, I'm
sure your manager knows where
you are now anyway, so you chose
to leave you went to Gong. Did
you know at the time what kind
of rocket ship you were boarding
when you took that job? No,
sarah brazier: I had no idea.
But the the pitch of Gong at the
time was like, replicate your
top performers, turn your C
players. Into a players, I was
like, Well, I'm an F player. So
either I, my thought was, either
I really am stupid and
everything I'm thinking is
incorrect and I don't know
anything about sales, I don't
really believe that, but maybe
that, maybe that's, maybe that's
a harsh reality I've yet to
accept, or maybe I could go
somewhere that seems to know and
like is literally selling a
software to help you turn your
your struggling performers into
successful ones. And if they're
selling that software and they
can't and they can't transform
me, then I guess I should go
back to school and get a
master's degree in something, or
go live with my parents and try
to figure out my next step, but
that was sort of like the point
where I had come to So, no, I
didn't know I was joining a
rocket ship. I just thought I
was going to get to a place
where someone could say
something that made sense to me,
and I could do it on a phone or
send it in an email, and people
would go, Yeah, I'll take a
meeting with you. And that is
exactly what happened. Would
mark ackers: you say? Would you
say, then, like, that was your
last chance. Salute. Like,
either works out at gong or I'm
going to leave the profession?
sarah brazier: Yeah, yeah. I
said. I said, I'm going to, I'm
going to go to Gong, and I'm
going to give it my best shot
for 12 months, and I'm not going
to do, I'm not going to be
distracted, so I'm not going to
do any shows. I'm not going to
be in any plays. I'm not going
to going to have any after
hours, anything. I'm just going
to try to master the craft. And
so I didn't do any shows. I did
one thing when I produced a
show, but it was only on
weekends, and it wasn't a big
wasn't a big lift, and that was
after I had already started,
like, consistently hitting my
quota. And yeah, I got there,
and my manager was this guy
who's 25 His name is Tanner
Robinson. He's no longer 25 but
I I asked in my interview to the
CRO I was like, my one of my big
concerns is that you have such a
young manager, and I just, are
you sure that he's going to be
able to enable me. And Ryan
longfield, who's a CRO of Gong
at the time, said, Yeah, I am.
And I said, why? And he said,
because he's just that good. And
he was so right. Tanner is the
best manager I've ever had, and
he was able to explain to me
exactly why people buy. And
that's what we did in our first
week of onboarding. It was just
like, What is a CRO what does he
care about? What does she care
about? Why would they care about
those things? What are their
goals? Why do they pull their
hair out? What keeps them up at
night? What's painful to them?
How is that different than a VP
of sales? What is a VP of Sales
experiencing? How does that
trickle down to the director?
How is enablement influenced
this? How does whatever? And
it's just literally just sitting
around and talking about what
these people want, why they
would want it, really
understanding your buyer
persona, and then going, okay,
so then where does Gong a
solution fit into that, and how
do you articulate it? And we
would write our outbound emails.
We wouldn't even mention Gong in
the email. We would just talk
about problems, and then we'd
say, Is it, is this? Does it
sound interesting to you? Is
this happening in your world?
And people would be like, yeah,
totally. Where our cold call was
just like our cold call script
was just literally describing
the status quo of being in the
dark as a CRO and not knowing
what's going on in your
business, and, you know,
struggling to be able to
identify what was going wrong.
And I was like, Man, that sounds
like the company I just worked
at.
mark ackers: Did you prospect
them? This
sarah brazier: makes so much
sense.
mark ackers: Did you? Did you
prospect them? Um,
sarah brazier: I didn't prospect
them. They were, they were a
customer already, but I didn't
have an account as an SDR. They
only gave it to the account
executives, and then, and then,
Gong competitor. There, they
hired, they hired a new CMO, and
the CMO sat on the board of one
of their competitors, and so
they
mark ackers: switched. Gotcha,
um, how would you describe like
you said at the start? Should be
able to tell a story in a
headline. Tell us, from those
that haven't lived it, we've
just seen it from the outside.
What was that journey like at
Gong from day one to the day you
left. Like, must have been
crazy.
sarah brazier: It was super
crazy. But really it was like it
was fun, and it it, you know,
your self esteem, if you spend
nine months not hitting quota,
it's just tanking. It's just
dropping into the ground and
being run over by a bulldozer or
something, I don't know. So when
I got on the phones at Gong and
I was full outbound, they didn't
give me anything inbound, I was
like, week two, maybe week two
or beginning of week three. Just
like being like, getting on the
phones and trying to pitch and
getting on the phones trying to
object. Handle the thing that
Tanner did so well is that even
if I didn't book a meeting, he
had alerts set up so that he
could go listen to the call
right away, and then he'd give
me feedback, but he'd always
have something encouraging to
say, like great delivery of the
pitch, good pivot here. So
close. Maybe you should try
saying this next time. And then
every week, he would go through
and we would listen to calls
where people didn't book the
meeting, but they got really
close, and we would talk about
what that person did really
well, and he would call out what
they liked. And then we would
brainstorm as a collective SDR
team, how would, how could we
have handled this call
differently? And so that was
like everybody was working as a
team to help each other get
better. People would hand each
other leads say, Hey, I saw that
this this account is in your
book, and this lead just posted
this thing on LinkedIn. I think
you should call them about that.
It's great, like, capitalize on
that. Um, so, I mean, it was
just like, it was a completely
different environment. And so I
would get on calls, and people
would be interested in talking,
and my manager would be
celebrating that, and then I
would be prospecting on
LinkedIn, and I would screenshot
conversations and text them on
the weekend to my manager, and
he'd be like, really good, try
this line. So I'd be, like,
working on the weekend on my
phone, like, you know, at the
beach, and he'd be responding to
me, it's just really supportive
environment. And so that, like,
you can, you can fall in love
with the company. That way you
really feel like you're in,
you're you're in a culture
that's going to help you thrive?
And it did. And you're finding
wins, and you're coming up with
ideas about, hey, I noticed this
thing going on. I would notice
things happening on the floor.
And I would say, hey, Tanner, I
noticed X, Y and Z is happening.
And he'd be like, great. How are
you going to fix that? Do you
want to run a session on it? It
wouldn't be like, No, that's
dumb. Go sit in your spot. Go be
in your place. It'd be like good
point, and how can we build a
better solution moving forward?
And so I got to run enablement
trainings, and I had an improv
session after working hours once
a week if people wanted to come
do improv. And I got to work
with marketing, and I ran life
after SDR, which is I just
interviewed people about, what
do you do once you've been in
SDR? And it was like the highest
performing video that gong had
at the time, like video series
Gong had at the time on LinkedIn
and YouTube. So, like, people
were just like, yes and yes and
and so when you're like a high
energy person with lots of
creativity, I mean, that's like
the environment you want to be
in. No one's shutting you down.
People are just like, let's keep
building. Let's run as fast as
we can. If you've got the energy
to do it, let's get it done. And
it was awesome, like, I loved
it. The worst thing that
happened was that covid, covid
hit us, and I didn't get to be
in the office and have all of
that kind of energy around. But
still we were able to, you know,
have these got boring after a
while, but we got to have, like,
happy hours after work on Zoom
and covid started out kind of
fun, but obviously it was a drag
once we realized, Oh, this isn't
like a one month in quarantine.
This is like two years and and
and California, like San
Francisco Bay Area, had some of
the tightest laws, I think,
around it. So, yeah, I mean,
selling in covid, we did really
well. It was like, Well, now you
really don't have visibility
into what's happening. And
that's where I learned how to
sell as an account executive and
got promoted. And that was
really exciting, because, I
mean, I was being challenged in
so many different ways, and
learning on the fly. And I would
wake up sometimes at like five
in the morning to take calls
with clients who were in Europe,
and then I'd be on the phone
with people in Australia that
night, like 8pm and so I think I
learned a ton, because I was
doing so much, and we didn't, we
didn't have our European office
yet, so I was just going, going,
going, it was great. It was, it
was, for sure, being on a rocket
ship. Um, yeah, good time. Good
time. Had by all. I liked
working at Gong. I learned, I
learned, and I was celebrated.
And I think those are two things
that companies should always,
always do. It
mark ackers: sounds like the key
to at least the first six, nine,
maybe 12 months was the manager,
was the investment in you and
your development, was the
coaching, the constant feedback.
And that can do nothing but just
accelerate you towards your
goals, your potential, and it's
great to you got so much of
that. Do you think without that,
let's just say you had the same
manager, take the manager from
the previous job, drop them into
Gong. Do you think you'd have
been successful there? I might
sarah brazier: have been, like,
mildly successful, because Gong,
as a company, knew who they were
selling to a lot more and. And I
could go and listen to calls,
but no, I don't. I don't think
so. I i 100% believe that it
takes a village, and that you
can have the most talented
person in the world, but if you
put them in a disparaging
environment, and you don't teach
them, and you don't invest in
them, then you're not going to
get the same output. And I get,
I get a little miffed sometimes
when I talk to sales leaders and
I tell, I tell them that story
maybe condensed, and they go,
Oh, well, Sarah, you're just
different. You know, you're just
really hard working, you're just
gritty. Not a lot of people are
like you. And I'm like, that's
not true. Maybe that's not true.
There's lots of people who want
it, and they just need they need
the guardrails, they need the
training wheels. They need some
help. They need some guidance.
And if you can put people in an
environment where they can,
they're not being told, they're
not being forced, you have to
write this email this exact way,
but they're being they're being
told, these are ways that you
can write an email. And that was
a really good first attempt. How
can we tweak this and make it
better? And you're treating your
subordinates as equals, and
you're creating together,
instead of, you know, bossing,
you're going to have a way
better experience, and you're
going to have people perform
much better. So, yeah, I think
Tanner. Tanner was a big
difference. He's like, I said,
he's great and and gone get a
really good job of hiring people
like Tanner who wanted to make,
to make their their sales reps,
fantastic. So when I interviewed
to be an AE, there's a guy named
Eric baliche, and he spent every
week he met with me to practice
my discovery call. I asked him
for a rubric for what what do I
have to say in this interview?
Tell me exactly what I have to
get right in this mock discovery
call to get promoted. Because I
didn't get promoted the first
time I interviewed. And so we
went through and we literally, I
was like, we're just going to
practice the opening bit until
you think it's good enough for
me to get hired. Now we're going
to do the painful, but we're
just going to practice that, and
then we'll combine them like and
having that kind of which I
learned through speech and
debate and acting like, just
Repetition Repetition, until
it's good and it's believable
and like, you can do it in your
sleep. I was like, we're going
to do that, and you're going to
help me, because I'm going to
make you a bunch of money, but I
just need you to get me there.
And if you and the managers were
like, Yeah, I'll get you there.
I'm ready to, I'm ready to spend
a lot of hours with you sucking,
so that you can be good one day.
mark ackers: I love it sounds
like what they were really
hiring for was managers that
just would coach. They knew the
impact of coaching. They carved
time out their day for one to
one coaching, group coaching.
Really invest in our workforce,
but also you create a personal
brand. And I can't remember the
video at all, but I do remember
the first time I saw a video of
you, and it's kind of like you
were walking through the gong
office. I can't I can't recall
it, but I'm sure you can't
either. But I remember thinking
like, Who's this? What's going
on here? Because, like, again, I
appreciate you might not realize
this, but we, I used to work for
companies that compete against
Gong in certain deals, etc. I
remember seeing you come online
this video, I don't think, like,
they've hired an actor here and,
like, what? Well,
sarah brazier: I was an actor.
No,
mark ackers: I know, but that's,
that's what I've always thought.
They've hired an actor in a
sales role. But talk to you
about, like, building that
personal brand. How, how did
you, I suppose, what I'm trying
Did you realize just how much it
would take off? Like, if I was
to say to you, that first post,
you're gonna amass 80,000
LinkedIn followers, and
obviously it's only gonna go in
one direction. Did you think
that was what would happen?
Like, what was the aim?
sarah brazier: No, and there was
no aim. It was to have fun.
Like, every job that I do, I
want to be having fun. If sales,
sales is gonna be miserable
sometimes. But you know,
overall, it's fun, like you get
these adrenaline blasts, you get
to compete, you get to think
creatively, you get to tell
stories. If you're only thinking
of your job in sales as KPIs,
then it's going to suck and it's
not going to be fun. So you have
to think about all the other
stuff you get to do that makes
it fun. But the thing so that
what happened was I had been on
a cold call with a VP of sales,
and he was a beginning of q4 and
he said something like, Don't
you realize it's q4 you
shouldn't be calling people call
me in q1 and I was like, What
aren't you trying to close deals
in q4 and it was even the
beginning of q4 It wasn't even
the end. There's plenty of time
for us to have a conversation
and help him close more deals in
q4 if he wanted to. And I just
thought, oh, what irony, calling
someone in sales in q4 and them
telling you not to call people
in q4 so I wrote a. Post about
it and that that's like the
first thing that went viral. And
if you look, if you scroll back,
you know, five or six years, and
you look at all of my posts
before that, I maybe made like,
three posts, and they have,
like, maybe one like, from, you
know, someone at Gong, or
someone I worked with. But that
took off, and it had like, 2
million impressions and 10,000
engagements. And I thought it
was going to be the best post
that I've ever done, ever and it
was, until the the one that I
did most recently last week,
when, when we launched demo. But
yeah, so I did that, and
everyone was really happy for me
and there, and I thought, well,
I'll just keep posting. And back
then the algorithm with
LinkedIn, if you had that one
viral post, they would really
push your other one. So I just
kept getting more and more
viral. You know, I would post on
a given day and have 500 you
know, comp likes on on a post.
So all that is to say, it really
helped me prospect as an SDR,
because I was getting a ton of
sales leaders commenting, and I
just talked about being an SDR,
and it was, it just became part
of my strategy at 11 o'clock,
make a LinkedIn post, go eat
lunch, come back, prospect Off
the post, and I'd still do all
my cold calls in the morning,
and I'd still send my emails In
the afternoon, but I had this
extra source of finding leads,
finding little, little golden
threads in the haystack. So that
happened. And then when it came
to the video stuff I was in, I
was getting coffee in the
morning, and I ran into a meet
the CEO of Gong, and he said,
what'd you do this weekend,
Sarah? And I said, Oh, I was
actually hosting a show. Because
that was the show I was I was
producing a show at the time. It
was really fun. I'd go on and
introduce the different acts and
just be, like, absolutely
ridiculous. And he said, you're
hosting a show. Why aren't you
hosting a show for Gong? And I
said, I don't know. I don't know
why you guys haven't put me on
the camera yet. And he said,
Well, you need to go talk to
marketing, and you need to make
a show. And I said, Okay. And
then I ran into him, like, an
hour later, and he's like, have
you talked to marketing yet? And
I said, No, because I had to go
make my cold calls. And he was
like, come with me. And he
marched me across the office to
Udi, who was the Chief Marketing
Officer at the time, and he
said, Udi SaaS, going to make a
show for Gong. And Udi said,
Okay, what's the show going to
be about? And I said, I don't
know. He said, Well, go figure
that out. Write a draft and work
with Devin reed on it. And I
said, Okay. I thought, well,
what's something that I could
talk about that people would
find interesting, would be
valuable to Gong's audience, and
wouldn't feel like I was, you
know, reaching, reaching above,
above my station. I just really
didn't want to be someone who
was trying to talk big, like I
knew the game when I didn't. So
I thought, well, I'm at the
point where I'm getting close to
closing, closer to being
qualified to be promoted to an
account executive. Is that what
I want to do? What happens after
you've been in SDR, what is your
life? So I came up with the idea
of life after SDR, really
simple. What do people do once
they've been in SDR, and what
are the other options, aside
from AE? Because I think that a
lot of people are in sale or,
you know, join as an SDR,
especially straight out of
college. They go. This isn't for
me. I don't like the
competition, I don't like the
high pressure. I want something
else. Get me out, then they
don't know where else to go. So
I thought if I could just put
together a series of interviews
with people who have done this
job, but now they work in
marketing. Now they work in
Customer Success, now they work
in HR, and figure out how they
navigated that path that would
be so valuable. And it was a
question that I was asking
myself too, do I want to be an
account executive, or do I want
to do something else? So I told
Devin, and he was like, great.
Go find some people to
interview. And I said, Great.
And then I just shot a series,
and we'd have a video crew come
in to film some other stuff. And
so they just give me, like, a 15
minute slot, and I'd interview
people about, how'd you get into
recruiting, how, like, How'd you
negotiate that? How'd you become
an AE? How'd you, you know,
how'd you ace your interview to
get that job? And, yeah, it was
really fun, but I didn't think
it was gonna be, like, wildly
successful, and that I would
have, you know, 10s of 1000s of
followers on LinkedIn. I
thought, I want to find out what
I should do next, and might as
well put it on camera, because
that's fun. And then I could
practice writing, and I could be
in front of people, and, you
know, it'd be one, it'd be
something to look forward to in
mark ackers: the week. So,
Sarah, here's the thing, lots of
people be listening to that, and
they'll be posting content on
LinkedIn, and they just won't
get an ounce of the traction
that you're getting. What advice
would you give to a young SDR, a
new AE that's trying to post on
LinkedIn? And they are, again,
what used to get those three
likes, the odd comment
colleague, and they want more.
What? What advice would you give
them?
sarah brazier: Yeah, so first of
all, the sad reality is that
LinkedIn algorithm works
differently, and so even even
the majority of my posts don't
perform as well as they did when
I was an SDR in 2019, 2020, so
you're just not going to get
that same traction. Is number
one. Number two is you should
ask yourself, Am I doing this
consistently enough? And for me,
if you don't post, if you don't
post every day, or at least
every weekday, you're gonna lose
any of the traction that you're
building the day before. Like it
seems to me, and I could be off
base, but it seems to me like
LinkedIn algorithm is
encouraging that kind of volume
play, whereas for a while, I
could go a couple days between
posting and still get a ton of
likes. Now it's like I really
have to be aggressively posting
continuously. So those are two
things, just to keep in mind,
like, it's hard, it's hard to
get traction, and it's very
unclear what it is that the
algorithm promotes or does not
promote. The third thing is that
you should look at the content
that you're actually producing,
and you should ask yourself two
questions, why am I writing
this? And why would someone want
to read this? And if the answer
is, I'm writing this because I
want people to follow me on
LinkedIn, then you might want to
re evaluate the kind of content
you're producing. And if the
answer is, I'm not sure why
someone would read this, then
you might want to re evaluate
the content that you're
producing, because you should
have some kind of thematic
motivation between your posts to
actually create a brand. So you
should say, what is it that I
write? Why do I write it? And
then you should also ask
yourself, what is it that I want
my audience to take away on a
regular basis? For me, I want my
audience to either laugh and go,
yep, that's my life. That's my
life in sales, that happens to
me or feel some kind of
empathetic way. Yeah, that does
suck. I have experienced that I
was crap at sales too, or I am
crap at sales, but there's a
path forward. So like a way for
us to commiserate together, or I
want to provide some kind of
tactical action that they can
take, saying, Hey, I tried this.
It worked for me. In this way,
you can try to if you want. I
never want to tell people that
I'm like the rightist, or they
have to do it my way, because I
think there's more than one way
to skin a cat, there's more than
one way to start a cold call,
there's more one than one way to
write an email. But if you're
looking for some structure,
which I lacked so much in the
first nine months of me selling,
if you're looking for someone to
give you a formula. This is a
formula you could apply, and it
might help. And then the last
thing is, just like, I write
posts every so often, especially
when I was in SDR, that were my
punch up posts, and I think
you're like, you're at the
bottom of the totem poles in
SDR, and everybody's the meanest
to you, and everybody blames you
for everything that a lot of
times isn't your fault, that it
sometimes it is your fault, but
a lot of times it's not like,
did I suck at did I suck at
sales in my first job? Because I
was a bad SCR probably I started
getting a bad attitude, and I
probably could have been nicer
on the phone, and I probably
could have worked hard on my
emails. But also there were,
like, systematic issues with how
that organization was running
their SDR team, that if they had
improved, it could have gone
differently. And every once in a
while, if you call out that
stuff in a tasteful way, people
are like, Yeah, and so I call
those punch up posts, but that's
like calling out the sales
leader who was mad at me for
calling you in q4 it's like, no,
no way. You're dumb. You're dumb
right now. You're just in a bad
mood and you're being dumb. I'm
gonna call you again in three
weeks. You're gonna forget about
yelling at me and you're gonna
take the meeting. I'm gonna try
again. I'm gonna try
differently. But that response
was dumb, and everyone can
collectively be like, yeah, that
was dumb. Gosh.
mark ackers: So let's, um, let's
talk about your game today. What
do you feel like is your biggest
weakness? Right? We could all
continue to improve. What's your
biggest weakness in your game
today?
sarah brazier: Oh, man, there's
tons of things. Like, I still
get happy. Years as a rep, I
always get anxious about
negotiating deals. Like, being
like, Nope, that's the price.
That's so hard, even though it's
the price and it's not my money,
you know, there's, there's tons
of, tons of, you know,
psychological reasons why
talking about money is scary.
And I totally still feel those,
um, and then, uh, handling
contentious conversations is
always, I mean, they're like,
I'm telling you a million
things, but I hate disappointing
people. I'm the middle of seven
kids. Um. Yeah. So I, in some
ways, that makes me kind of
like, go along to get along,
unless things are really stupid
and then I get mad. But like, if
I'm trying to, if I'm trying to
sell something, or if I want
that person to, like me,
delivering disappointing news,
telling them that we can't do
the thing that they want to do,
telling them that I could I
can't get that, like, discount
approved, all of that I hate,
and those conversations get me
the most anxious. So I, I will
sit down with a manager, and I,
I'll be like, can we just
practice that? Can I just hear
how you'd say that? And those
are the times when I have, like,
the least confidence in my
communication skills and the
least confidence in being able
to navigate the call, because my
fear is that I'll freeze and I
won't be able to keep talking or
find a path forward. I'll just
freeze and I'll be like, Yeah,
you're right. I do suck. I do
suck, and we should give you the
discount, but I can't.
mark ackers: I so what I love,
though, right, is you're still
working on these things, like
you are seeking that coaching.
You're seeking that development.
So I am conscious. I literally
could extend this conversation
by another hour, but let's,
let's sort of suppose I'm
conscious you've got a call
coming up as well. Always
selling. Tell us about demo that
sounds really exciting. So
you've gone off, gone off and
created your own business with
some co founders, demo. Tell us
about the problems that demo
solve and tell us all about
sarah brazier: Yeah, so I don't
think it's a secret right now
that top of funnel is really
hard, and that the motion of
getting a bunch of college
graduates into a room to dial in
a boiler room isn't working, and
the stats are all different
depending on what source you're
looking at, but what used to
Take maybe four touches to book
a meeting is now upwards from
anywhere from 15 to 30. At the
same time, buyer behavior has
changed a lot. You know, 80% of
the sales cycle happens when the
sales reps not in the room.
Buyers are coming to customers a
lot more informed, and buyers
don't necessarily want to talk
to sales until they're actually
ready to buy. And so those
exploratory conversations are
happening far less frequently,
because 45% of decision makers
are millennials, and they want
to be independent and do things
on their own and do research by
themselves before they have to
have a conversation. So all it
is to say when you're doing a
sales cycle, a lot of times,
people will come in and they'll
say, I just want to see a demo.
And by the point they get to
you, the account executive,
they're already pretty
frustrated because they wanted
to see a demo, so they went to
your website, but they couldn't
find one, and then they had to
fill out a bunch of forms. And
then two days later, an SDR
called them and asked them a
bunch of questions, and then
they finally got on the phone
with the account executive, and
the account executive doesn't
want to show them a demo yet,
they want to ask the same
questions the SCR just asked all
so you can watch a demo and
decide, yeah, I think that might
solve my problem, or that's not
really for me. So Troy Munson
and Lucas wurtzberg And I built
demo, and it is a marketplace
where you as a buyer, can come
in and watch demos of SaaS, and
you can go, yeah, that looks
interesting. And then if you
want to talk to sales, you can
click a button and you can
literally ask them a question
and you'll get an email back
with an answer. Or if you want
to actually see an in depth demo
around a particular problem that
you're interested in solving for
your business. You can request
that, or you can go down the
demo chain. And so I think
that's one piece of what we're
doing. The other piece is, I
think it kind of democratizes
your actual research, because
the companies that you see at
the top of your Google search
are paid ads. It's Seo. You
know, whoever is has the biggest
budget to spend on
advertisements, and so you're
missing a lot of small companies
that are building something
really cool, or building and
solving the problem differently
that you might not get. So when
you go to demos website, you can
type in your use case or your
challenge, and then you'll be
surfaced up all the different
products that could solve solve
your challenges. So I think it's
beneficial, both for companies
and for buyers. Buyers can skip
a bunch of the process, and then
companies who are struggling to
get top of funnel, all of a
sudden can be talking to
actually engaged buyers who have
already seen the demo. They know
they are interested in moving
forward in the buying decision.
And so I think it'll eventually
increase win rates as well,
because you'll be talking to
qualified interested buyers,
instead of some guy who just
wants to see a
mark ackers: demo. Amazing. That
sounds really exciting. I've
certainly registered my sales
coach to be on the website, so I
look forward to hearing back.
Sarah, thanks so much. Much I've
really enjoyed having a podcast.
I'd love to have you back on the
podcast in the in the future,
because there's just so much
more we could talk about. But
yeah, thanks very much. Really
enjoyed it.