Sue (00:03.435)
Welcome, I'm your host Sue Schneider and welcome to this podcast of the leaders podcast. So we're very, very fortunate today to have two veterans in the industry. As you know, with this podcast that I'm hosting, it's a look back and to try to let people know kind of how things got started in the industry. you know, I think to really get a sense of how
unusual it was as an industry to watch the evolution. So with that, we have two guests, Steve Lipscomb, who was the co-founder of World Poker Tour, and Adam Pliska, who is currently CEO and was with the organization for a long time as general counsel also. So welcome, we're glad to have you both on. Great, Steve.
Adam Pliska (00:55.981)
and I'm happy to be here.
Steve (00:57.384)
You're here.
Sue (00:58.719)
You want to start with what I'd like to do is to have you guys each give some background pre internet gaming also what led you up to this point. And then we'll get into some of the specifics related to starting world poker tour. Steve, you want to start? What was your past life?
Steve (01:16.07)
Yeah, you know, I am so happy to be here with you, Sue, because I know you were there from the start. It's sort of like trying to describe to a 15-year-old today what the world was like before internet and cell phones.
The poker world was a very small community. Poker was played almost exclusively in the United States and in home games that had nothing to do with Texas Hold'em. So it was an entirely different world. And when I wrote the business plan for the World Poker Tour in 2001, the idea was to capitalize on a gigantic poker audience.
and sort of make this into a sport as opposed to what it had been, which was a sort of niche gambling thing. And so very quickly we were in business on television in 2003 and the world immediately changed. We were one of the biggest things on cable television. With that came...
an extremely big jump in online gaming by associating with the World Poker Tour and then with other shows as well. That created the grand. Like we were super fortunate to be a part of an incredible world.
Sue (02:38.188)
Can you talk a little bit about who your co-founder was? that's an interesting part of the story.
Steve (02:43.964)
Yeah, well, I think he thinks of himself as the funder. So Lyle Berman was at Lakes Entertainment. I went to him to sort of talk about this idea. Let's make this into a league. The first league in the history of poker was the World Poker Tour. And approached him, his company, Lakes Entertainment, came on board and they were an extraordinary choice. There's a great story that I won't tell now unless you want me to later, but about
four of the icons of the poker world got together at a dinner and decided not to fund it. That turned into the best bad beat we ever had because Lakes Entertainment had infrastructure and the kinds of things that we wouldn't have gotten from those other big names.
Sue (03:34.231)
when you started that, that in 2001 you said? What did you do before that?
Steve (03:37.213)
Yes, sir. I the business. What was I doing before that? I was chasing chasing the dream. So I had made films, television with some of the great icons of that time. Lear.
a co-mentor of Adams and Mines, how I first met Adam. So an incredible connection. So before that I was film and television, loving and living the dream. And that was a crazy life. But out of that, the pitch for the World Poker Tour. I made a one hour documentary called On the Inside of the World Series of Poker for the Discovery Networks. It doubled its audience in an hour with no
Adam Pliska (03:59.081)
Absolutely.
Steve (04:23.454)
which kind of doesn't happen in cable television. And so went out to everybody. I just met with Norman Lear and said, know, it's huge. It's going to be the biggest thing ever. And they thought it was the worst idea anyone had ever come up with or anything on television. No one's going to watch poker on television. Thank heavens, because that's what prompted me to go to Lyle and raise funding so that the World Poker Tour still today, Adam, still owns
everything it makes. That's an extraordinary good beat.
Adam Pliska (04:54.663)
Absolutely.
Sue (04:56.759)
Wow, that's amazing. Adam, talk about your background prior and then how you got drug into this by your friend there.
Adam Pliska (05:06.81)
Sure, sure. first of all, want to thank you, Sue. I want to point out something that's interesting. don't know if you either one of you take in the moment to think about this, but I so the World Poker Tour, I now have worked in, I believe, something like 55 countries with the World Poker Tour. The first international event or anything I ever did with Steve.
was an organ was something you put together. It was it was in Sweden. Yeah, so you started it all you started my train you are responsible for all of my mileage points Sue so that I want to say thank you to do. It's been a bit it's been extraordinary. But yes.
Sue (05:41.239)
That's right.
Sue (05:50.679)
Well, yeah, we have some great history together, I will say that.
Adam Pliska (05:57.382)
Absolutely. Well, I, like Steve, was in TV. As Steve mentioned, Al Burton, worlds had crossed paths. Steve was working on a production with Norman Lear. Al had worked with Norman Lear for years and I had met at that point. So I was a TV producer. I was also a lawyer, like Steve. We were both lawyers at large law firms.
And the interesting thing is that we both that we a documentary was actually a Genesis for both of ours both of us in the world poker tour in that I known Steve before from other company and production that we had worked with and I had received a job offer
that was not only accepted, was prepared for me in an office at the Senate Judiciary Committee when I was sitting there going, don't know. And I thought there'd be a great documentary that would be much more interesting than working there to do a documentary on the next Supreme Court justice. So I had persuaded them, were negotiating their rights of how this information would be released and taping the Senate Judiciary Committee.
And the Chief Justice did not step down. Steve had some legal work for me and I was able to come in for a little while and to do some fun things. We were at the Lot, which is, don't know if it's own now or one of the other studios, but it was the original studio of Charlie Chaplin, Mary Pickford, Douglas Fairbanks.
And it was just wild. I I always say my next door neighbor was Charlize Theron. It was just magical, right? This place was incredible. Came in there to do the legal work. Steve and Lyle wanted to go. It made this very crazy idea to go public. And so I had a big choice to make.
Adam Pliska (08:23.779)
You know, do I go with a documentary that probably doesn't have a very exciting end at the moment because it hadn't switched? Or are we gonna stay and do this? I told everyone I'm gonna go stay because this poker company is going public and nobody had ever heard, that didn't make sense at the time. And people thought I was crazy. And what are you doing? You're leaving the Senate judiciary. You're not gonna take your job. The guy who was the chief.
council there has become a very, very good friend over the years. So, but you know, because of that, that's how we got here.
Sue (09:00.705)
So when did you actually begin with them?
Adam Pliska (09:03.074)
I was there at I was there in 2003. Yeah, so it's just yeah, so steep. Yeah.
Sue (09:10.005)
okay. Yeah.
Steve (09:13.054)
Thank heaven. Because until then, I had to do all the legal work. It's shocking we survived.
Adam Pliska (09:18.155)
Yes.
I think, yeah, Steve did a room. I mean, we both come from law firms. So we have the proverbial joke that they always say that, we're a product, we're a creative firm, or we want to do the credit. Okay, all right. I don't know about that. But Chris, Steve was quite creative in, in assembling how these IP rights and everything would work to sustain it, to create a business that we still, the basis of that business is still underlines World Poker Tour today.
Sue (09:21.664)
You
Sue (09:50.283)
Mm-hmm. Well, and I think, you know, you were doing some very innovative things with the cameras and all that. Talk a little bit about how those kind of innovations on how people viewed the game led to it taking off the way it did.
Steve (10:09.278)
Yeah, well, I mean, it's fun if you really want to get into the weeds to go and look at it before and after because the World Poker Tour format, first show that we edited, David Egan's name, I should say more than I do, but David Egan was the editor of the first World Poker Tour show. And deconstructing the game before, I directed cameras for the first time on our first shoot because nobody had ever done this before.
I mean, no, literally just not even close. So instead of having a documentary style, let me tell you why it's exciting. It's exciting because this is exciting. That's what all poker was before the world poker tour format showed up. But.
deconstructing that, calling the cameras so that every movement is followed. then David Egan and I sat in an edit suite for eight months. It took eight months to edit the first World Poker Tour show. And Lyle Berman, who was the force behind us having a personality that would allow us the time, is an amazing gift. So after that, what you see
with that format is what we wanted to do was create a sport. So the way I look at it, people talk about whole cards and it's great to see the whole cards, but I can tell you after two months of trying different iterations of how do you show cards and make it work? I can tell you when we were able to, David Egan said the name again, the editor had to re-wire the Avid software.
and program it to do something it couldn't do at the time so that graphic comes out, it shows you what the cards are, if somebody folds, it goes away. And the first time in the poker world history, you could sit in a bar and follow what's going on without anybody talking at all. I mean, I think that's sort of the seminal thing for me. And it was like giving birth to a child, which I should never say because I'm not a woman, but it was.
Steve (12:20.964)
It was arduous and eight months, not quite nine, but it was eight months of a non-stop challenge to try and figure out how that works. And it's still kind, it is what people do all over the world when they make a poker show.
Sue (12:36.171)
Yeah. Well, and you know, I travel a fair amount and I see it on all over the world. So, I mean, it's just amazing to see what, what's been built over that period of time. It's crazy. It's crazy.
Adam Pliska (12:48.661)
You know, I'll say, you know, the focus so much was on the TV show because it was so intimate. mean, here is prime time television. You know, it's a testament to Steve of we're going to get into prime time television. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, just no, no, no, no, no, no until it's prime time television. But there was other things that are in addition that really has continued to resonate.
and the one that comes to mind, particularly cause I, you I was, that's part of the world that I was living in the very early days is how that business plan incorporated other things that were not just, we're going to show you entertainment. So brand building and the merchandise merchandise was a very big deal. And I remember it was not 48 hours that I was at the company.
where there was a debate on the weight of weight of chips and rejection. mean, so Steve and I both come from TV. So what happens is like you get no and no and no, and then somebody comes and says, hey, and by the way, I'll give you X amount of dollars to do t-shirts or whatever. you're like, thank God, right? Cause this is, you this is the money that helps support this thing. And the amount of the,
mental constitution to be able to say no, no, that's not right. That's not good enough, whatever it is, kept the quality standards so high that it did not look necessarily if you looked it on on paper, you know, if you were if it wasn't Lyle Berman, if it was somebody else, somebody could be saying, well, you could have brought in another $2 million. Why didn't you do this? Why didn't you do that? But those were the things
that set the stage for what we think of the world poker tour. I always say, when I'm asked to describe the world poker tour, I say, you know, we're kind of the apple of the PC world. And that, you know, we're not just saying growth for growth sake and the numbers for numbers. We, the quality really matters. And is it responsive to the customer and all that kind of stuff? But that was being set up.
Adam Pliska (15:14.234)
in days of determining, you know, what could go out and what could not go out and, you know, intense debates and back and forth. But there was this dedication that no, no, no, it was going to be quality. And so that was foresight because I got to tell you, and we live in an immediate world now, right? People, you know, put up on social media, they get this, you know, they don't know how long they're going to be around. So they take it well.
take the money while the money is good. You really have to have a long-term vision. And Steve, I know, gets this question all the time. People say, did you really think it was gonna be along that line? And he's kind enough to say, well, you know, it's wonderful to see this or whatever. But I know the answer, which is he's crazy enough to think it would be around for two decades because he was, I know it, because he was building that. He was building a platform.
Sue (16:04.118)
You
Adam Pliska (16:13.036)
that act, you know, I would say there, you know, that there were people who do construction like, we got to put up a housing unit and get it out there at that lot that's across the street. And then there are people who are building New York Minster, right? And when you're building the York Minster, you don't say, well, by September, I'll be wrapped up. No, you know, it's generation after generation, but someone building New York Minster,
said we're going to have something that's going to be around and it's going to take multiple generations and it's going to be around for a thousand years and that's exactly, you know, I do think that was going on early on.
Sue (16:51.157)
Well, and it's very refreshing to hear that. I'm sorry, go ahead.
Steve (16:51.25)
So you're just not gonna get a word in Edgewise. I'm sorry, said Edgewise, you're just not gonna get a word in Edgewise. It's like, Adam and I talk constantly and yet we don't have any space. So I apologize in advance, but I just wanna say it's so lovely to be with the two of you in this context because knowing what came before and being able to do what you hope you do when you raise a child and they go out into the world and they do wonderful.
Adam Pliska (17:01.495)
Okay.
Steve (17:21.138)
things that you never expected. I mean, there it is 100 % true that we plan to go into every vertical that the NBA or the NFL or a major league baseball did. That was all part of the plan. But you know, to start in four offices with four people, so myself, Robin Motor, Audrey Cana and Cindy Fraser in the lot where we had month to month rental because we could go out of business anytime.
when you think about starting there with the crazy dream, it'd get crazy, 100%, right? That we're going, there's no doubt in our mind we're building a thing. And then to see Adam, who was with us essentially from the start, continuing to expand into this gigantic global market that I swear people at the time, I promise you I was in the meetings with ESPN, I pitched to them.
before we created the world of Perfect World and everybody else who did it afterward. I went into all those offices and they thought this was the worst thing anyone had ever conceived of. It's sort of, that's the dullest thing in the world. No one will watch it. And to see not just watching it, but have it reverberate into people playing. I mean, I know Adam, I'm going to go out and hang out with Adam in this month at the big event they're doing at the Wynn.
But you see people playing online, see people playing in person, you see the sort of communities and businesses that build around it. And that's amazing.
Sue (18:58.027)
Well, it's a, it's an institution at this point, which is what's really neat, but it's always changing and innovating institution, which is what's great also. and I, you know, I think in hearing you talk about Lyle, you know, just find that, admirable that he took that long view and didn't feel like you had to just get in and do it and, and, you know, cash out right away because I don't.
I don't think that's the mindset today when you see investors and co-founders coming in. So it's, you were fortunate, I think, in that regard to have him behind you with that mentality.
Steve (19:38.642)
One of the things that I do now is work with run the entrepreneurship center at Texas Tech. And when I talk to students always want to know, you know, what are you looking for in an investor? And I think you're always looking for someone who not just sort of has vision, that's great, but someone who really wants to be responsible for creating the thing that's your dream. And Lyle Berman,
You could not find a better person who wanted to be the new godfather of poker, of this era of poker. And he really can wear that robe. And I think he continues to enjoy, Adam and I continue to be in touch with him and enjoy time with him. He's a decent dude.
Sue (20:32.373)
That's great. What would each of you say is a highlight that you had during your time at World Poker Tour? And I'm yours is going to be a little broader because you're still there. talk about what do you think? What was the highlight for you? Steve, you want to start?
Adam Pliska (20:48.806)
That's it. Go ahead, Steve.
Steve (20:51.518)
You know, I'm gonna tell you there are too many to even be close to me. From day one all the way through the stories are never-ending but there's a beautiful sort of coda I think moment that Adam and I shared so when the WPT honors ceremony was taking place we were both speaking to what the world poker tour had meant to us and
Adam Pliska (20:56.539)
Ha
Steve (21:21.062)
without any consultation at all. We both quoted the song from Camelot that is that place that you may once in your life be lucky enough to be a part of. And I get chills again from it because I just feel like that's how special those times were. I think Adam's just a remarkable steward for
for the brand to grow it, to make it do things. I think if you're a good founder, you're out of the way soon enough so that people can do things that your mind would have restricted you from doing. so that moment to me is a very special one where we both looked at each other and went, well, of course, was Gail.
Sue (22:13.109)
Well, you're both like me that having fun is a priority with the work.
Adam Pliska (22:13.338)
Yeah.
Adam Pliska (22:19.536)
You definitely have to have fun and it is because something's got to keep going, right? mean, you know, your reward for eating, winning the pie eating contest is more pie. You'll have new challenges and more things that are coming along. There's just, as Steve said, there's just been so many times. remember, I remember the first time we, I have a picture that was on my desk of signing the first million dollar deal. We thought that was such a big event. You know, that was.
early on and then and going in the international market, their first international events and all of these things, you seeing the progression at the wind. mean, what's about to happen is going to be amazing. This is the first interview I've actually done before I leave to get to the wind. But there was a moment last year we did an entire WPT Virgin voyage where we would charted the entire ship.
And we were just having a great time all week long with people from all over the world. did, but we did a little thing together. we were doing some back and forth and it was finished. And Steve and I have this thousands of people on this boat and they're walking around and they're having a good time and they're down in the disco and they're at the bar and they're playing trivia poker games and they're playing poker everywhere. And we just walked out and we just took a walk.
on the deck and it was just the two of us. And you're out in the middle of the sea and you're under the stars and it's, and you realize the best part of it is that one day, very quietly, you're going to walk out with your best friend and go, this was good. It's not the, it's not the, you know, it is not the
the ceremony. It's not that thing where you go, my gosh, mean, we're, you know, somebody's, I'm gonna hand a check to a million dollar winner who put down zero in a couple in a few days. This is going to be so meaningful. It's going to be fun. It's going to be exciting. But I got to tell you walking out there under the stars with your friend and going, whatever is happening in there. We got to, we got to be part of
Adam Pliska (24:46.09)
That's just, it was phenomenal.
Sue (24:49.099)
That's great.
Steve (24:50.428)
May I just take a moment to say, and please go on a podcast. You just made me cry. mean, that's that. No, I, I want you to know that the, the genuine thing, we, we talk about this all the time. So the reference to Camelot is just kind of a beginning of it because it's always people who are a part of this. And we, I think have always taken a lot of time to recognize.
Sue (24:57.789)
And me. And me.
Steve (25:19.87)
where we are in the moment, appreciate, have gratitude, not just for it, but for all of these people who have done extraordinary things, some of whom you'll never know, most of whom you'll never know. And all of those people make this thing happen. It's how there is a World Poker Tour 20 plus years later.
And Adam and I know coming from the entertainment business how wildly rare that is. But thank you to all of those people, all the players, all the incredible partners, the casinos, the people who have come to bat for us. The reason the World Poker Tour is here is because of that and because I think we've been pretty clever to pivot.
in times that would have taken down a lot of other businesses when I talk to people who want to be entrepreneurs or to students about these sorts of things. It's sort of, you can start a path, but it never leads where you think it's going to lead. And it's been really, I guess, fun, but some of those times were really scary. And to be here today is pretty exciting.
Sue (26:38.293)
Yeah. Well, flexibility is just so important, especially in what was a new industry and ever evolving industry at that point in time in the early days. Before I come back and ask you about your biggest challenge, Adam, you want to give kind of a recap of where World Poker Tour is now? Because I think to look at the contrast from where you started to where it is now would be good.
Adam Pliska (26:56.905)
Sure, Yes. I mean, yeah, I do remember we used to all gather around in April to see if we were getting picked up again, you know, to see if the show would get picked up. Well, now, know, the television shows, it's one of the most broadcast TV shows in the world. is on 91 networks worldwide. We have...
Everything from low buy tournaments, did the million dollar buy in last year. We are doing the WPT World Championship has just started at the the win. This year we are doing the last year we did the largest guaranteed prize pool, $40 million. This year we are doing a $5 million, the largest free roll in history.
You can, you know, for those people who were signed up on, on, club, wpt gold, they can go and register. got 2000 seats and we are going to be handing for literally nothing down. We're going to be handing away not only $5 million, we've added another $750,000 of pricing and cash. got a McLaren GTS going out and someone, and I really do hope because we have, this is
We have people playing on this event who've never played before because why not? It's free roll. You know, it's, it's as fun as playing at a charity event. So we have, and we have, Lyle Berman who was calling me, asking me how I sign up on the, on the site so that he could play as well. but someone's going to walk away and be a millionaire, a poker millionaire. know from this.
Sue (28:43.529)
You
Adam Pliska (28:52.056)
It's gonna be fun. It's gonna be exciting. what we really, why I say this is because it's something that the company knew early on and it was in its DNA, which is you need to refresh, you need to refresh, you need to continue to remind people that there is new, that I get all the time, know, how is your competitor? Is is it Gigi Poker? Is it WSOP in the Bahamas?
That's not the compa- I mean, I guess, you know, in the fun sense that there's Pepsi and Coke and stuff, I think it's a competitor. The real competitor that we have is the real estate in people's mind. They can do anything now. I mean, think about it from now, from 20 years ago, how easy it is to sit in your house and you have multiple options and you can do anything and everything is vying for your time. So it's our-
job to make sure that people go, this could be fun. And we know that when they do that, they sit down and then they will have the connection because this wonderful, wonderful game connects people from all over the world. And it makes, you know, so many relationships have started. I was reminded just a few days ago that Kim Lansing and Zach.
you know, came together at World Poker Tour event. We've had many marriages that have started from World Poker Tour events. But you also have people from areas that would have never come together. And so that's what we're about to see. Steve's going to come and hang out with us. And what we will see is relationships being made. Our job is just to make sure that the canvas is there and that there's a lot of good reasons to keep that kindling going.
Sue (30:44.993)
Well, that sounds like that was your biggest challenge over the years. So that's good. That's a good philosophy about it. Steve, it just says you look back. We got a minute or two left as you look back, was your biggest challenge?
Adam Pliska (30:47.617)
Yeah.
Steve (30:59.358)
I will tell you that I'm gonna give you the yang before I give you the yin, which is Adam and I, because we get to, we're blessed. mean, he is the best friend anybody ever had. And we get to talk about these things. So we talk about how we think we learned more from the tough things than we did from the easy stuff. I mean, the first five years of the World Poker Tour, that business plan read like a script.
I mean, it's crazy how it just all happened and it all worked. When we ran into online sites that were giving away the thing that we were making eight figures every year, which was television rights, because they could make more money online, that was huge. It was an existential sort of moment. But to manage to get from where we were with the Discovery Networks, to be on the Game Show Network, to be at Fox, to negotiate a deal that...
actually included PlayWPT as a part of that. So the revenue stream completely shifted. I would say those were all the kinds of things that could have a, I would say, a different team or a different brand in a different place, not make it through. those were, I guess they were challenges, but I feel like we got an awful lot out of each and every
Sue (32:28.663)
Great. Well, I knew that you guys are a dynamic duo and really glad that you were able to come on with us. So thank you for joining us on this one and we thank you all for listening.
Adam Pliska (32:40.3)
Thank
Steve (32:42.206)
Thank you, thank you Adam Polizka.
Adam Pliska (32:44.585)
Okay, thanks. It's so good to see you both and yeah, for you listeners, come on down, come to the win. We'll come and see us. We're like Mickey Mouse characters. We just walk around and take photos and smile. All right, thanks. Bye bye. Okay, don't hang up. Steve, gotta stick on for a second.
Steve (33:00.702)
Thank you, Sue.
Sue (33:01.719)
Thanks.