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Conversations with designers, founders, and builders behind some of the best work
Devin Matthews Video Podcast.txt
English (US)
00:00:00.040 — 00:00:22.160 · Speaker 1
The way Super Ordinary got started is not as artistically romantic as you might think. I think if you can make something that you would enjoy yourself, there's an audience for it. There's people just like you who would enjoy the thing that you like. If you're already compromising a little bit at the beginning, then it's going to be easy to start hating the thing that you're doing.
I spent the last year.
00:00:22.160 — 00:01:54.900 · Speaker 2
Trying to rediscover my love for the game, creating new things like media, breaking all the rules of design, trying to make things for me again. Not for you, not for money. And during that time, I found someone who was on the same journey. Devin Matthews, he's an art director at Buck, this massively talented design agency out of Los Angeles.
In last summer, he debuted the first episode of his YouTube series Super Ordinary. The concept was simple, a documentary about a seasoned designer who wanted to rediscover his creative inner child, and he kicked it off by rebranding his favorite local sandwich shop, unsolicited and completely free.
And within four weeks, his brand new YouTube channel had tens of thousands of new subscribers, hundreds of thousands of views, and he was getting featured in the press. He would go on to rap season one with three more episodes, each one creatively more unhinged than the last, and instantly became my favorite creator of the year.
Like me, he's on a pursuit to tell creative stories and to surface the soul that we seem to have lost in the hustle of social media. For the next hour, you're going to hear from two designers who are equal parts storytellers, creatives, and clueless adventurers who are trying to figure out how to balance fulfillment and making money in the noisy era of hyper information.
This is State of Play, a podcast where I'm trying to figure out what fuels some of the most interesting designers and builders. Let's get into it.
00:02:02.360 — 00:03:06.820 · Speaker 2
Like. Truly I've been I've been telling the community the discord. Like, yo, Devin, everyone's sharing. Every time Super Ordinary comes out with a new episode. You've been the talk of the town in our community for a long time, because I really admire the work that you've put out there. But the other thing that that really resonated with me was the fact that I see so much in what you're doing, in what I'm doing, meaning, like, we've got this career that we've worked with different brands, we've got this thing that we've, you know, for all intents and purposes is is established.
And yet there's this other area and specifically for you and I, it's media where we are kind of rediscovering what we love about the game. And it's like we're just taking some risks and we're we're just kind of like remembering why we do this in the first place. And, and I kind of have to ask you, there's, there's like a stubbornness, I think in both of us here, when you move between both of those worlds, where do you feel, I guess, most yourself creatively?
00:03:06.820 — 00:05:11.020 · Speaker 1
I remember going through the college experience and everything I remember very specifically was like moment where I did like a graphic design poster, but it was very much illustration, like I illustrated the whole thing and there wasn't hardly any type in it. And there was this big debate whether it was like, is this illustration or is this graphic design?
And to me, I was kind of like, like, does it matter? Like in my solving the problem. And, and I think it kind of like stuck with me, like why, why is there have to be this, like, oh, this is design or this is art. Um, a lot of the time it is a lot of the same. And the lines do get blurry. A lot of people say like, oh, if you're doing it for a client or if you're doing it for your cell phones, like, well, not really though, because when you when you're making art, the client is the audience.
And, you know, it's like. Of course you're always going to be making stuff that you enjoy personally, but if you're trying to make something that's going to make a difference to someone or or move somebody, you have a client. You have an audience that you're making something for. So I do remember kind of early on wrestling with like, you know, the whole design is a designer art kind of thing.
And I think as I got in the industry, I liked to try and like push that a bit. Most of those experiments don't make it through the first round. Um, because there is kind of like a oh, this, this is the way things are done, this is the way we're going to do things. But I think that's what excited me most about starting Super Ordinary was even on YouTube, there's a way things have kind of been done, or at least now there's kind of like a lingo of how a YouTube video looks and everything.
And I got excited about switching that up a bit and trying to push what a YouTube video might look like. And I'm not saying I figured it out. I think there's a lot of things to learn along the way. For sure. There's probably a good reason YouTube videos are made the way they are, and I'll probably learn that the hard way.
But there's there's no reason not to try and blur those lines a bit.
00:05:11.140 — 00:05:21.780 · Speaker 2
Is super ordinary a project that you made entirely for yourself, or were you thinking about like the audience or the end user at all?
00:05:22.100 — 00:06:13.360 · Speaker 1
Well, the way Super Ordinary got started is not as artistically romantic as you might think. It was me trying to find a way to pay it bills. So our our daughter, when she was first born, she had a heart condition and was in a hospital for a long time. And all these bills in my life started piling up. And, you know, I, I was working at it as an art director, a book, and we were living in LA at the time, which is not a cheap place to live.
And I was just like, man, like I cannot keep up financially and even if I get promoted and promoted, it just felt like it was going to be drops in the bucket. It wasn't going to change our lives dramatically. So I was like, okay, I need to find some way to make some extra cash. Um, I looked at some, like, pretty random stuff.
00:06:14.880 — 00:06:30.040 · Speaker 1
Uh, initially I, my wife's a nurse, and I found out you can, like, sell your feces for, like, testing. And I was like, that is like, you talk about, you know, uh, what's what's the word? What's the word? Income.
00:06:30.160 — 00:06:32.160 · Speaker 2
Hustle. Your hustle in there for sure.
00:06:32.240 — 00:06:38.520 · Speaker 1
No hustling in the bathroom? No, just the income that you don't have to think about. I can't think of the word right now.
00:06:38.520 — 00:06:39.560 · Speaker 2
Oh. Passive income.
00:06:39.600 — 00:06:56.180 · Speaker 1
Yeah, like passive income. How passive can you get? It's something you do all day, every day. Anyways. So I actually had, like, looked into it as bad as that might be. And my wife does want me to share that. But then I was like, Maybe I'll. Maybe I'll try to find somebody that I'm actually using the talents I've spent years developing instead of just something.
00:06:56.180 — 00:06:57.140 · Speaker 3
That any human can do.
00:06:57.180 — 00:07:52.120 · Speaker 1
Started looking into making graphic design courses, um, which and I wanted to do in a way that was like different. I wanted it to be extremely entertaining to where you were learning, but it was also like you just enjoyed the learning process so much. So I started thinking about all these how do I teach this concept?
How do I teach contrast and balance? And I started coming up with these big, exciting projects that were like, I could teach balance by doing this big, crazy thing and I would like, be super memorable. And then I just started realizing, I got so excited about these projects that I was like, If I'm gonna do it, why don't I just try doing the thing that I really want to do, which is creating this, like, entertaining format.
And so that's kind of like the genesis of Super Ordinary. It started out as on the more educational side, and then I just decided first I'm going to just try to do exactly what I want to do, which.
00:07:52.120 — 00:07:53.680 · Speaker 3
Is more on the entertaining side.
00:07:53.680 — 00:07:54.440 · Speaker 1
It's like creative.
00:07:54.440 — 00:07:56.360 · Speaker 3
Entertainment. I guess you could say.
00:07:56.760 — 00:08:09.400 · Speaker 1
I think there's a lot of good nuggets in there to learn as well. It's definitely not. There isn't any educational bits in there for the most part. I just wanted to focus on, okay, how do I make this the most interesting, most.
00:08:09.400 — 00:08:12.680 · Speaker 3
Engaging thing for those who are creative and can find inspiration?
00:08:12.680 — 00:09:03.100 · Speaker 2
While it might not be an educational tutorial in format. I mean, it was an incredible call to arms to get out there and rediscover creativity. I mean, it came at a time in my life which was like just comically timely, and I found it immediately. And you've become my favorite, uh, dare I say filmmaker of this year.
Really? Like thank you. The things you're I mean, truly and and I don't have to tell you that I think you've seen. I think you've gone through a whirlwind of finding the people this resonates with very quickly. You did have the audience in mind. You're like, I want to teach people, but I want to do it my way.
So there's like an element of like, self-fulfillment. But like you, you were hoping like, hey, I hope this reaches the right people in the right way.
00:09:03.780 — 00:09:11.500 · Speaker 1
Yeah. And I, I'm a big fan of especially with, you know, our internet age and social media and everything.
00:09:21.260 — 00:09:46.920 · Speaker 1
Back in the day, that might have not been as easy to do, because most of the time you're confined to your own circle of people or your own, you know, location and everything. But now it's like, start there. If you're someone trying to start like, don't worry about what you think people are gonna like. First, make something that you think you'll like and one that's going to help you not get burnt out because man, And it is an uphill battle.
00:09:46.960 — 00:09:51.400 · Speaker 3
Trying to make some of this stuff on your own because you're playing all the parts, you know, starting out.
00:09:51.480 — 00:09:52.760 · Speaker 1
And so if you're.
00:09:59.320 — 00:10:01.080 · Speaker 3
Early, resenting it a little bit.
00:10:01.120 — 00:10:12.600 · Speaker 2
Speaking of being a one man band, I mean, you basically are I think you had told me in the past, tell me the makeup of your the team behind the first season of Super Ordinary.
00:10:12.960 — 00:10:14.480 · Speaker 1
Um. It's me. Well,
00:10:15.880 — 00:10:25.240 · Speaker 1
no. So when I, when I did episode one, episode one in episode two was basically 100% me other than obviously in episode two, you.
00:10:25.240 — 00:10:30.120 · Speaker 3
See, my brother, I made him come along for the ride to make the the art piece.
00:10:30.120 — 00:11:14.060 · Speaker 1
But all the all the filming, all the editing coming up with the ideas in the first one, there's a lot of design. I did all the design by myself and it was exhausting. So this is this is another bit of good advice, I think when I first started, I think my whole thing was I want to just be able to like, own something, like I want to be able to make something that's all me, that I can see the creative vision from beginning to end and not have to like, compromise and to see what I can do.
And I think that was a big part of it was like I just wanted to see what I could do, which I felt like that's exactly what that did. And then I quickly realized that if I wanted this to be sustainable, I needed to be able to.
00:11:14.060 — 00:11:15.020 · Speaker 3
Find help and.
00:11:15.020 — 00:11:34.540 · Speaker 1
Accept help. So I wouldn't have done it any other way. I think it helped me find a voice and find how I wanted to, like, present myself creatively online, which I think if I would have been working with other people, it would have been easy to get, you know, buried under other people's ideas and everything.
So that part of it was good. I think now I'm at the point.
00:11:34.540 — 00:11:34.900 · Speaker 3
Where I'm like.
00:11:34.940 — 00:11:36.700 · Speaker 1
Okay, I found my voice.
00:11:36.700 — 00:11:37.340 · Speaker 3
A little bit.
00:11:37.340 — 00:11:39.260 · Speaker 1
I figured out what an.
00:11:39.260 — 00:11:40.380 · Speaker 3
Episode looks like.
00:11:40.380 — 00:11:48.760 · Speaker 1
Now I need to find the help. And so I like trying my brother. I pretty much got him recruited in as like number two guy because he thinks.
00:11:48.760 — 00:11:49.840 · Speaker 3
A lot like me.
00:11:50.240 — 00:12:32.640 · Speaker 1
Um, but yeah, it's it's a balance. I do think when it comes to collaboration, I have mixed feelings on collaboration sometimes because the worst thing you can hear when you go into, like a meeting is like, okay, let's sit here in brainstorm. It's like, who's going to come up with good ideas? I don't know, at least that's not how I think.
I like to go back, think about something, come back and present some ideas, hear other people's ideas that they've been thinking about, and then start spitballing off each other's ideas. But most of the time when it's like, okay, let's this is a brainstorming meeting, the most vocal people get heard and the people who might not be as vocal, you know, they kind of just sit back and.
00:12:32.640 — 00:12:35.960 · Speaker 3
Be like, okay, well, I don't want to ruffle any feathers. I'm just going to like, let's.
00:12:35.960 — 00:12:49.460 · Speaker 1
Go with their idea or whatever. So I'm also trying to figure out how, you know, the the best way to get the most out of people when it comes to collaboration, which is like everyone's always trying to figure that out, you know?
00:12:49.500 — 00:14:09.560 · Speaker 2
But it's so tough to think about the incentive structures for people who are trying to seek creative fulfillment. And that's a lot of people who are on, like the who are producers of creative work, right? It's like, yes, we we need money. We like, we want money, but we need money. And then like, once the need is fulfilled, yeah, let's add the like the nice, like I want a little more money, I want to live a little bit comfortably.
But it's also it's so much more than that. It's like, I want to make sure that I have agency in this vision that I have in my head to bring to life. I want to make sure that I'm part of something a little bit bigger than me, I want to. And so we have a, you know, I'm at the place where you're at in terms of for a long time, this whole media operation for me was me.
And then I found someone and they were around for a long time. And now we've grown the team a little bit. And I've had to learn a lot of these things about, you know, how do I make this interesting for other people? This is interesting for me, but how can I? And so one of the ways I've had to do that is, is I'm like, what do you enjoy working on and what are some of the things that you love?
And then if, if I have to like, really listen. Someone's like, you know, you have an episode coming out with this thing. I would love to be like the creative kind of director on that. I'm like, okay, like, let's, let's do that. Let's talk about what that means.
00:14:09.600 — 00:15:07.020 · Speaker 1
That was actually a question I wanted to ask you, because you're further down the road than I am with, with a lot of this. And right now me and my brother would think very similarly, like, we have a very similar sense of humor. We'll start spitballing off an idea and we can just kind of like, oh yeah, let me get it.
But as we start bringing other people in. Um, hopefully that'll that'll be the case. As someone trying to shepherd a creative vision, it's. You want the people who can, you know, not just follow exactly what you're saying, but come up with their own, you know, creative ideas and everything. Those are the type of people you really want, but those are the type of people who, like, eventually kind of want to do their own thing.
They're not the people who just want to, like, follow someone forever, you know? Right. So, like, what's your approach when it comes to, like, finding those people? And do you just, like, be like, okay, you're with me for when you're with me. I know you're going to spread your wings eventually, but, like, let's it's so.
00:15:07.020 — 00:16:05.400 · Speaker 2
Hard, man. It's it's very complicated because, you know, I one of the things I've done recently is I've really championed the talent that we've, that we have on our team. And I'm like, hey, credit to this person who did this thing and stop motion to this. And some people like in private, have been like, hey, like, you should be careful.
Someone's going to swoop in and, you know, probably be able to pay them more than you can. Be careful how you talk about, like, your current talent. And I'm like, I get that. I haven't been burned by that yet. I'm sure it'll happen one day, but at the same time, it's like I have to be honest with myself if if I get a, you know, a great month or 2 or 3 or year run with somebody, that's fantastic.
Is it going to become part of the the business of having to find ways to find new talent that replaces what seem like huge shoes? Yeah, I am seeing a tiny bit of that on like our motion graphics side. All I can do is just try to support these people, make this place a creative, fulfilling place. Because there's the other side of this, which is like,
00:16:06.480 — 00:18:14.040 · Speaker 2
uh, just like in design at agency levels, like if you're any kind of studio, whether it's a media studio or a design studio, like there are still deadlines. We try to get an episode out a week of this narrative podcast, and we have two other shows in the works. That's a that's a South Park turnaround, man. Like that is a tough ask, and it is very easy in creative work to burn out.
Like it's very easy to do that. And so, you know, for me the most I can do is just make sure like, hey, what are your goals? Like, what do you hope to be making? Where? What is it you would like? Oh, you want like more exposure to build your own YouTube thing? Awesome. I think for me, the question this is this is where I came to with a lot of this.
What am I trying to build? And when I look at like what super ordinary is like, first I had to get right that like, we're a media company, we're trying to build this thing that's large. And then eventually there's a day where I would love to be able to platform and put more people on in a way that like you look at, like drop out TV or you look at like the corridor boys or the corridor crew or can't remember, you know, the VFX guys who have multiple kind of characters on the show, but they spin off and create their own show, like that is where I'd love to get to one day.
Am I going to get there? With the current cast of crew? We have now? Probably not all of them, but if we can like that would be fantastic to help put them on in a way that is like synergetic, you know, like do the people doing the creative work, especially in what you and I are doing? I don't think they have to be like hidden away in the back room like, no, no, that's where the production is happening.
You don't go back there. No. It's like, let's bring them to the forefront and and like show that this can be either a long term place where they can spread those wings like you want to spread your wings. Let's create the environment where you can do it here. Or um, let's make it a platform that it's like, cool.
We were able to be the springboard for these people who went off and did some good work. So it's like you have to kind of get right with what you're trying to build. And then also with like, yeah, if if you do a good job, it means you gave birth to people who were able to improve their lives to, I guess, you know.
00:18:14.400 — 00:18:32.900 · Speaker 1
Yeah. No, I've, I've been thinking a lot about this with Super ordinary because we got, you know, we got season one down. We have not done a great job with our socials. Like it's been an afterthought. And I've kind of been thinking a little bit more about how we approach that. And part of me is like, okay, this might be a good opportunity to showcase their champion of their artists.
00:18:32.900 — 00:18:33.300 · Speaker 2
In a way.
00:18:33.300 — 00:19:17.260 · Speaker 1
That like, for example, say, you know, pancake episode we're trying to promote, or maybe not even pancake episode, but just the super ordinary identity in general is like taking ordinary things, doing something with them. And if there's another artist out there, there's a big fan of Super Ordinary and it's like, oh, look what I did with these like paperclips.
Yeah. And maybe that's something. Oh, we'd love to use that. Can we put it on our super ordinary post and underneath put like our work by so-and-so and like put a link. So they kind of become part of, of the super ordinary organization a little bit like, oh, I had a part of pushing super ordinary. Well, also like, you know, getting some exposure for myself, but I don't know, it's something I've been thinking a lot about as well.
00:19:17.540 — 00:21:07.180 · Speaker 2
There's there's a lot of moving parts to it. Right. Because you start to ask yourself, like, okay, like I want to showcase a person and platform them. And then it suddenly becomes like, okay, like logistically like what is a pay structure? How do I compensate? And yeah, um, and And it's what I'll tell you is this.
I don't have the right answers. We're still figuring it out ourselves. But one of the things I know to be true for us, anyway is be prepared to invest a little bit of money in, not just like in paying the people or compensating for whatever the case is, whether it's a role or a feature or whatever, but also be prepared to be wrong when you make that investment and have to make that investment like a second time for something, you know what I mean?
Like, I'm learning that, for example, if you make a hire and you've probably seen this at agencies and you invest 30 days of time into a person and you're like, yeah, this isn't the fit that we thought it was, and then you have to go back and maybe make another hire. You know, I'm not sure how often you've had to deal with something like that, but I've had to deal with that in the past and it's like, okay, so that cost me X amount on on a salary that didn't really go super far.
Maybe we got some output from it, and it cost me like 2 or 3 additional months of time. And I'm learning that anytime I'm trying to scale something. I need to factor in additional cost, additional time than just the price tag of one person. And so like that's been that's been that's kind of the balance. And that leads me to like a question for you, man, which is you told me that the, you know, the kind of impetus for, For Super Ordinary was like, we have medical bills, right.
And how can I, how can I make a dent that's like more than just like an annual raise. And I guess that's what we're talking about. Like, how do you balance? How do you think about the balance? So let me throw it back at you. How do you think about balancing creative fulfillment and the need to make money?
00:21:08.300 — 00:22:10.520 · Speaker 1
Oh man, that is like the age old question. Yeah, yeah. And well, and what I, I guess what I told you also comes at the part to a little bit, which I had, I talked a little bit about in um, my episode three, um, of my series, but for those who haven't seen it. So there was this need for like, I need to make some more money.
And I was trying to think of all these, these different ways. And I just had a daughter come and everything. And then during all that, this was during the pandemic and everything at the same time. So when I was younger, I used to make music videos with my cousins. That was kind of like my introduction into, you know, video making and all this stuff.
So around that time, my one of my cousins had passed away, which was like devastating for me. He was like one of my writer dies and we used to make music videos and everything. And so there was this part of me of like, I need to find a way to make more money. And then they hit this part of me of like, ah, man, life is short.
Am I doing what I want to do?
00:22:11.760 — 00:25:08.020 · Speaker 1
If if I passed away tomorrow, how would I feel? As far as like, did I do my best work creatively? What does that even mean? Sometimes that feels kind of meaningless. Like what's this work I'm doing for anyways? Ways. And so I think there's just a lot of those questions about like, what? What do I want to do with these talents that I've, I've developed and everything.
And I think that's also why I kind of went this route of trying to create something that was a little more meaningful. And so to go back to your question of like, what's what's that balance? I, I think if I'm answering this for somebody else, like, first, I think you need to ask yourself, are you doing this for like therapy?
Are you needy? Are you doing this to just, like, have a moment to paint and do all that? If it is, then do it for that. If you're trying to like do this for a business, you're trying to make money, then don't don't blur the lines. I guess it's like, no, that's what you're trying to do. No. Like, okay, I'm I'm trying to make a business doing that.
This. And you have to like, start treating it that way. It's not always the most glamorous, but I think when we When we start blurring the lines too much of like, oh, this is like the thing I, I love and I want it to always be this thing. I can be completely free. It to be like harsh. It's kind of like it's optimistic thinking that you'll never have to compromise on anything, or you're not gonna have to, like, do something that you maybe are like, ah, I don't really want to, like, do this.
But when you do, like be able to do this so we can pay to like, do something more creative and everything. I think Buck is where I currently work right now. I think they're a good example of this. There's projects that are pay the bills, projects that aren't like the most creative fulfilling, and you do those type of projects so you can do the big creative projects and maybe not make as much and everything.
So like, I don't know if that's a super good answer. I don't think it really is, but I think, I think I'm still trying to figure it out as well. Right now. For me, it's I'm in the enjoyment part of it. We haven't had. Haven't gotten to the, like, big business part of it yet and trying to include, um, brand deals and all these things yet.
But as a creative, I think those are problems that you have to solve creatively. Like, okay, this brand wants us to push their product into our thing, and they have the way they always do it. Is there a way for us to be more creative with that, that we don't feel like we're selling our soul and being like, you know, in the middle of our story, being like, by the way, you know, check out these these things that, you know, you love, these, these wipes that are and so that's something I think we'll figure out hopefully, as we figure it out, doesn't feel like we're selling our soul as well.
And if it does I apologize. But we're figuring it out.
00:25:08.260 — 00:25:29.720 · Speaker 2
I and I think that's a that's a very I appreciate the candidate and honesty and that answer the candidates because the same thing here man. You know and that's like there's the idealist in us and you and I as like designers and creatives, we want to think of the ideal world. What's the most ideal outcome of the things we work on?
Yeah, so we have to live in that ideal world. But we also.
00:25:29.880 — 00:25:41.880 · Speaker 1
Dream like that's the world I live in everyday. I live in the clouds, man. Like that's. But I try to be a little more. My wife's more realistic and she'll bring me down a notch sometimes out of the clouds.
00:25:42.640 — 00:26:24.100 · Speaker 2
And it's good to have that counter voice because, you know, for me it's like, okay, there's the ideal world. And then there's the pragmatic path to get there. And there is like a nuanced way to balance it. And we're figuring it out. But but I will say, you know, having the freedom to do at least some initial exploration, like you've done six episodes, season one, super ordinary, massive success for a debut, dude.
Like, thank you very, very well received. And you have it. And now the signal to say, yeah, we're on to something. Let's keep going. How do we make this, like, a full time thing, right? Like that's how I'm sure. Imagine.
00:26:24.100 — 00:28:16.700 · Speaker 1
You think that's one thing that I did right? Was instead of, like, trying to convince somebody this was something that would work, I just made it and proved first that like this, you know, making this the way I made it, people, it's resonating with people. If I would have tried to just create like a pitch.
And obviously not everyone could do this, because if you're trying to make a film, it's like if you need funding for it, you got to make a pitch deck and everything. But I mean, the age we live in right now is like, you know, we there's a lot of hate on like, oh, man, like the world today. This like, man, we live in a pretty spectacular time where you can just like go out and make something and, you know, find people who are interested and make something out of it.
You know, like, it's I don't know, we take it for granted sometimes, but It's, uh. It was one thing I think I did right was I just spent some time without posting anything, but just in the trenches, trying to figure out what I enjoyed doing and did the creative part. First, I explored tons of shots. I have so much footage that's just buried and not used because I was just experimenting and that was super fun for me.
And then I got to where I was posting it, and then it became real, because it wasn't just me messing around and having fun. Then I had to like, face the reactions and how people felt about it and all this kind of stuff and, you know, people being interested in it as far as like branding, sponsorships and things like that.
But during that little bit of time, before anyone knew about it, while I was still in my secret corners of my my own office making it, it was like it was the time to experiment and to and to try things. So I think that was one thing that I did kind of write.
00:28:16.900 — 00:28:32.020 · Speaker 2
And that's what I'm seeing a lot in the industry in software design right now, too, which is just this lot of polarization because of online media. This evolution of creative work in the tooling out there. And for me, it's like,
00:28:33.260 — 00:28:45.740 · Speaker 2
tune it out, play with some of the tools and like learn to play again. Learn to just like tuck away. And maybe you're not sharing what you're doing and you're just kind of like, it's a mess. It's a mess back here. You know, I do.
00:28:45.740 — 00:29:19.840 · Speaker 1
I do feel for the younger generation sometimes because there's a lot of a lot of pressure to just be like, just post it, just post it, which I think is like good to good advice also to just not worry so much and just like get in the practice of sharing the man. I don't know where I would have been if if YouTube was a thing back when I was a kid, and all of a sudden there's this expectation of audience and followers like, I probably wouldn't have taken the same path that I took now, but because there wasn't an audience, it was literally us making.
00:29:19.840 — 00:29:20.240 · Speaker 2
Videos.
00:29:20.240 — 00:30:08.800 · Speaker 1
As kids. I did not worry about reception, or if this was gonna be good for attention or anything like that. It was. It was just for the joy of making. And so I'm trying to like, tap into that now, even though I am dealing with all that stuff as well. But I think it is good advice. Like you were saying to, I know the advice out there is to just post it, just publish it, just share it.
The take some time to just enjoy it first. Like hop on there and make some stuff and don't worry about sharing it right away. Maybe share it with your mom, or your close friends, or someone who can just enjoy it with you without being, like, critical of it and just even ask yourself, did I enjoy doing this? Or is there something I would like, hey, I want to try this instead.
00:30:08.840 — 00:30:58.540 · Speaker 2
So that's a fantastic I love that frame and I love that advice. I am definitely somebody who tries to encourage people to push past feeling cringey to share their work. I see a lot of value in it. I love what you just said though in regards to that, and I want people to know, like even when you feel like you've reached a point where you can put stuff out and you feel proud about what you put out, and maybe the reception reciprocates, that you're going to open yourself up to criticisms, to people who, like you, have no business even listening to, but because it's public.
That's how this goes. And I want to ask you, what can you recall any of the your shows a smashing success? What have been some of the criticisms that you've opened yourself up to?
00:30:58.620 — 00:31:04.100 · Speaker 1
Yeah, so I to start off, I am I internalized stuff big time.
00:31:04.140 — 00:31:06.340 · Speaker 2
Like I take it hard.
00:31:06.380 — 00:31:11.020 · Speaker 1
Yeah. I'm like very I'm my biggest critic for sure, but
00:31:12.080 — 00:32:55.060 · Speaker 1
Unrelated to her. Like if I'm driving on the road and someone like. Flips me off because I did something dumb. It sticks with me, like the whole day. Like, I just think about it and it makes me feel kind of sick. And I can just, like. Shrug it off. For whatever reason, I haven't able to, like, figure out how to do that.
And I think I probably cared too much about what people think about me. And that's probably what it comes down to, is just caring too much about people. Think maybe I should just go the opposite way and become a huge, polarizing, like just want people to hate me kind of person and then it'll be easier to not care so much.
But yeah, I think right now it's like I have always been somewhat well-liked with the people I know. And so it's like I hang on to that, like wanting to be like, it's just human, I guess. But when I first posted episode one, it definitely blew up bigger than I thought it was going to, and it was a design episode.
And the funny thing about it was like I was trying to just be experimental and just try something without giving too much thought. And because I, I should follow that advice you were giving of like you should just post something, you should just publish something because I think about things way too long and then they just die and they never leave my mind, or they never leave my computer because they're not perfect or they're not ready.
So when I was designing for Logan's Heroes, part of me was just like, all right, it's not perfect. Um, I know it's not maybe, like, the most well thought out or best design in the world, but it's I did it and here it is. And I definitely got some, like, feedback. I mean, so 99% of the comments were 100% positive, but at 1% stuck with me.
00:32:55.460 — 00:32:59.900 · Speaker 2
And it does. It does there. Like what? That was garbage. It's worse than it was.
00:32:59.980 — 00:35:07.040 · Speaker 1
Yeah. Like those few comments that were like there was about the design, which that wasn't bad because like, I deal with that every day. That's just like critique, you know? And so I was like, okay, I can see what they're saying, Bubba. But then there was the comments that were like, man, this guy's so into himself thinking that he can just go and like, change this.
They don't need your this and that and that hurt. I was just like, ah man it wasn't. And they're like, oh, this is just the opportunity for you to go film yourself and show it to everybody, you know, just like, ah, man. Like some of that stuff like really kind of hurt a little bit and stuck with me and made me feel kind of sick and just, I don't know, after the first post, I felt like I should have been celebrating, but I felt so much anxiety and I don't I don't feel anxiety very often.
I don't consider myself a very anxious person. I'm pretty laid back, but man, I felt anxiety and I had to stay out of those comments because even the positive ones like like I said, 99% was positive. There are so many positive things that I started feeling the pressure like I already had episode two done, which was like the rock episode, and I had made that one before finishing, um, the, the first episode.
So it was a little more rough. We had like the sound wasn't the best because we were still trying to figure it out. We had like a one was like homemade home camcorders for half of it because we were trying to have like two cameras and I only had one nice one. So it was a bit of a mess. And after seeing all these comments like, oh, this is like Netflix level blah blah blah.
Wes Anderson this and that. I started getting really anxious. They're like, oh man, the second episode has nothing to do with design, and it's like there's a lot of imperfections in it. It's a little messy and like, I don't know how this one's going to go. And so there was this, like, I finally figured out how to to be myself and make something and then a and not to worry about people, what people were gonna think.
And now all of a sudden I was seeing what people, what everybody thinks. And then I was stuck with like, how do I get back to not worrying again what people think? And that took some time to figure out.
00:35:07.120 — 00:35:55.800 · Speaker 2
You know what? I love this right now. So what's really cool about you and I chatting here is we're talking about a topic that I have not really I haven't dived into in a lot of detail because a lot of people were talking to designers, founders, software design stuff. Right. And I'm learning a lot from there.
We are talking about media, specifically creative media. And so here's what I want to know. First, video goes bonkers on YouTube. You feel the pressure. You see the criticisms, you see the number go up. Second video goes out, number goes up, but a little bit less than video one. And there had to be a little bit of like, oh my god.
And then like and all the pressure. So tell me about the like mental evolution that you went through from video 1 to 2 to where you're at at episode six now being being finished.
00:35:55.800 — 00:38:09.740 · Speaker 1
So when I finished episode one and two, I showed them to my work because there was a little section in there that was showing some of the projects I'd worked on, wanted to make sure I didn't have any issues with NDAs and stuff like that, so it spreads around my work a buck. Everyone freaking loves it. It makes its way to like the guy who owns the company.
Ryan, honey, he reached out to me. He's like, I love what you're making. This is absolutely amazing. I want to support you. No, none of that. So going into episode three and four, he was giving me some time off work to work on these and, like, was really supporting me doing it. So there was this pressure of like, I need to prove that this is going to work.
So the first one goes off, everyone's excited. They're like, this is amazing. This is doing better than we thought. Second one doesn't go so well. And I started feeling this like, oh man, okay. It's one thing. If it if it was a fluke, I know they're good, but now I feel like I need to prove to other people that this is worth investing into, I guess, which added a lot of pressure.
And also to give some context, they were totally fine. Like they were just like, no, no, no, this is just part of it. Like it's just we understand, like this was going for the long haul and but for me, I was just like, I don't like this is like the dream come true. My work is allowing me time off to work on this thing.
And I'm I'm working on it and this is awesome. But I don't want them to be like, oh, like, this isn't really working out anymore. So like, back to work. And that that was a lot of added pressure for me personally. I did feel like I had made something I was proud of, and I think if I wouldn't have done that, there would have been a lot more self-doubt.
But for me, I was like, uh, it's it's one of those things that'll catch eventually. That's how I've always felt, because the subsequent episodes haven't done as big as the first one. But still, in my mind I'm like, it'll catch eventually. They're all good episodes. I feel proud of all of them, and a lot of them I like more than the first one.
For whatever reason, the first one just took off, but I feel like the other ones are just as interesting. but there are some algorithm stuff I learned too. There are some people who reached out to me like, oh, you shouldn't be posting your trailers in between because you're killing your algorithm. And this.
00:38:09.780 — 00:38:11.980 · Speaker 2
I noticed you got rid of the trailers.
00:38:11.980 — 00:39:14.440 · Speaker 1
I did and that was part of it. There was a guy who who did a does YouTube consulting. He he gave me some free advice. He was like, love what you're doing. Just want to give you some advice every time you post a trailer in between an episode. Obviously your views aren't going to be as high, but the algorithm doesn't know that.
It's just seeing that you posted a video that got way lower views. So when you post your next episode, it doesn't push it as much. So that that could have had a big part of what happened. We're still putting the trailers out there, just not on the channel itself. I, I got to the point where I'm creatively, I feel like I'm figuring it out.
The voice, the storytelling all feels great now. I got to play the game a little bit. I gotta figure out, uh, all these different, you know, things with marketing and short form, which I, I definitely way behind on the short form side of things. I'm trying to figure that out as well, but it's kind of fun because I don't have to think about it so hard, and it's kind of like I could throw something out, see if the fish bite and if I don't, like, try it again.
It's kind of fun.
00:39:14.480 — 00:39:24.960 · Speaker 2
It's what got me into short form was because it was so YouTube felt like Hollywood years ago. Um, in my mind, I'm like, If I'm going to put something on YouTube, it's got to be my, like, debut.
00:39:25.000 — 00:39:28.400 · Speaker 1
Well, and it's like your library of content if you want it to be evergreen.
00:39:28.400 — 00:40:10.780 · Speaker 2
I have this like intro I spent a few months on. It was like, it's like literally the first, like 90, 62nd intro of like a YouTube video. I was going to make around design. This was for maybe five years ago. Yeah. And uh, and that thing never saw the light of day. You know, I just it wasn't perfect enough, and I'll air it here.
Um, and then finally, like, TikTok came around and it was the pandemic, and I was like, I'm just going to post yapping. This is like, it's TikTok. People are dancing. No one cares. Yeah. And so, like, there was this feeling of permission that I was just like, I can just do this and it doesn't matter. Um, and it really led me into getting comfortable experimenting with just creating ideas.
Like getting experimenting in public, which is really terrifying concept.
00:40:10.780 — 00:40:37.900 · Speaker 1
It is, but it's also liberating. And I think we're we're starting to learn that because. Me and my brother are trying out some stuff now, and we're both kind of perfectionists, and our first content we put out there feels too polished still. And so, like, we just gotta loosen up. Like, we have all these, like, funny, random ideas and then we just.
Like, tightening up too much when we're trying to, like, get it out there. And so you'll see, I'm sure in the coming weeks I have a few ideas that are very loose that will just throw out there.
00:40:37.900 — 00:42:37.660 · Speaker 2
When you're experimenting on short form. What I've learned, and I, and I think this has become somewhat conventional wisdom these days, is you're going to throw stuff out. Like, for example, you were saying, hey, uh, we find other people who do like interesting practical, creative videos or, you know, adjacent to that something.
And we want to show that stuff. And so maybe one day you find yourself collecting consuming to create. You go and find these people who are creating cool little creations. And maybe one day you make a video and you're like, hey, check out like if, like, here's how we kind of did this shot in our episode. And here's some people doing things in really interesting ways.
And maybe that's like a very like a short form is a practice, an exercise in brevity. That's the first thing. Short form is an exercise in brevity. You you want to tell such big stories and then you have to be like, Holy crap, how do I truly condense this down into its core parts to still get the effect or tell the story?
So that's the first part. And the second is, let's say you take that idea and you get to show a little bit of super ordinary video, and then you get to you get to kind of show some other people doing dope stuff. And maybe that has an uptick. You're like, wait, people like that. If you see something like that, that has the potential to become a recurring, we'll call it, series that suddenly makes it easy for people to go, yeah, I know what, I'm coming over here to Super Ordinaries Instagram for, because they're talking like different ways.
Not just them, but creative people doing interesting ways to put stuff together. Oh, by the way, like and then when every time they drop a video, they'll drop a trailer and I get to go watch them work too. You know, so all that to say, look for your first flagship series, I would say as you're doing experiments, different formats, which one of those takes can be like reproducible into something that your Instagram channel becomes more known for?
00:42:38.340 — 00:43:39.960 · Speaker 1
That's that's great. I think we actually have a few things on the doc that are along those lines. So it sounds like we're on the right track. So when I'm on TikTok or Instagram, I have this aversion to being sold to about anything The moment I feel like it's someone's trying to sell me something I like. Swipe away.
Yeah. Um. And it's just like. It's. I don't know. I don't know why. I just have it. Maybe other people like it, but I just have an aversion to it. There's a part of me that's like, oh, yeah, obviously I want to use short form to push people to my YouTube page. But in a way, when we've tried it, when I watch back, I'm like, it kind of feels like I'm trying to sell something to people, like, I'm showing you this thing, but the thing I'm trying to sell you is I go over here, check out my thing.
Should I try to be pushing people to the YouTube? Or should I just be creating something that's great in and of itself on short form, with the goal of like, just trying to get more awareness about super ordinary as a brand?
00:43:39.960 — 00:44:57.600 · Speaker 2
Both. And here's how I would do it, man. There's a hard sell and there's a soft sell. And I would do more soft selling than hard selling. So soft sell. Is this the soft sell is that video series idea. Let's expand upon it. Where you show some dope people, and then in between there you're like, in for our second episode of this.
This is how we got this shot. And you show something they haven't seen. Still exercise in brevity. You make mention that it's on YouTube, but you're not like, hey, go watch it. Hey, go subscribe. You're just like, here's dope, people. We're dope too. Here's how we did a thing and then die. And they're going to be like, oh, I want to go like actually watch more of that.
So maybe there's a small cliffhanger, maybe there's some sort of like reason that they're going to be like, yeah, that's cool. Let me go check out the final version. So maybe you don't show the like, you know, and you can play with how you do this, but maybe you don't show like the end result, but you show how you got the shot and they're going to go and check it out.
That's a soft sell. You didn't ask for it. But then the hard sell. What I would say is you're funny man. Like you have a very good delivery of your humor in some of these moments. Like even from, like the hair episode and you're like, it's not creepy. It's art. You know, like, the little deliveries are so good that I would say, don't be afraid to hard sell occasionally, but use that humor when you're selling.
Like. Like. Acknowledge. Acknowledge that you're hard selling, and it's cringey.
00:44:57.640 — 00:45:04.920 · Speaker 1
So that's the thing. I'm like, do I just lean into it so hard that it's like, it's funny because it's like I'm yeah.
00:45:05.160 — 00:45:22.240 · Speaker 2
I'm a big I'm a big dad guy. I follow a lot of creators critical role, and they're hilarious about how they do their sponsorships or ads. They're like, and they just lean into it in the cheesiest way. And you kind of, can't you stay through the segment because you're like, okay, like, what cheesy thing are they doing around this this time?
00:45:22.240 — 00:45:36.760 · Speaker 1
And maybe the big difference is, is like, there's no I'm not trying to, like, trick you into anything. It's like, you know, you know what the intentions are. And so there's cause sometimes, you know, when when creators are sponsoring something.
00:45:36.760 — 00:45:37.800 · Speaker 2
It's like you're.
00:45:37.800 — 00:45:43.200 · Speaker 1
It feels like you're trying to be tricked or, you know, not tricked, but just, like, convinced about something.
00:45:43.200 — 00:45:50.660 · Speaker 2
And there's marketing blinders all over. And that's what we've learned to, man, is like, it's yeah, you got to figure out the way to do it. But, uh, and some people.
00:45:50.700 — 00:46:05.180 · Speaker 1
You know, because when I'm making stuff, it's like. But I'm not one of those guys. Like, I'm not. I'm one of you guys, like, I'm a I'm gonna make a I'm not like, a a brand or I'm not one of, you know, these big companies, but sometimes it feels that way where I'm like.
00:46:05.220 — 00:46:16.740 · Speaker 2
Well, you're gonna get hit with it. They're gonna some one day someone, you know, you're you're a bona fide filmmaker and they're going to be like this influencer out here, you know, and you're going to be like, you're gonna die a little bit inside, do you?
00:46:16.780 — 00:46:31.340 · Speaker 1
Okay, this is a maybe a personal question, but when you tell people what you do, how do you do you ever say you're like an influencer or a YouTuber? Do you say, is there like a shame there for you to say those things?
00:46:32.380 — 00:46:40.020 · Speaker 2
I think there's a tiny shame. There was a tiny shame in saying I was an influencer at one point, because it just felt kind of icky. I don't know.
00:46:40.020 — 00:46:41.340 · Speaker 1
Why there's like a stigma there.
00:46:41.340 — 00:47:37.760 · Speaker 2
But but more importantly, today, especially and in the last like year or two, it doesn't do me a very good service in certain company. Like if I'm talking to brands or I'm talking to other business owners, saying I'm an influencer isn't quite accurate anymore. It's like I'm built, I'm running a media company and we also build software, but we're not an agency because we do it all in-house.
It's all our own stuff. Um, so it's very hard to like first accurately. So it kind of changes based on who I'm talking to. But at the end of the day, the like very generic answer is like, we're an internet media company, you know, it's what we do. And I would recommend to other people who might be listening that even if you did just start out posting videos on Instagram or YouTube, I would still refer to myself as that.
If you've made a dollar like because I think it allows you to think bigger internally to like, you kind of have to say it out loud to.
00:47:38.000 — 00:47:39.000 · Speaker 1
That's very true.
00:47:39.120 — 00:47:52.780 · Speaker 2
You know, like and then the same goes like I'm a freelancer or you a design agency, and it's like the way you talk about it is going to eventually echo through all the actions and decisions and things you do. Yeah.
00:47:53.300 — 00:48:20.620 · Speaker 1
Yeah, it's funny because when I first started working on episodes, I totally had this aversion to being like like, oh, I'm trying to start a YouTube channel. YouTube is like 35 year old man be like a YouTube gentleman as I'm trying to, like, convince people to be in the video. Or like when I was trying to talk to Logan's heroes and stuff.
But at the same time, I didn't want to sound like I was this big production company and might make them feel, you know, like, I don't know if I want to be involved.
00:48:20.620 — 00:48:33.900 · Speaker 2
In this or whatever, right? Because then suddenly it's like, well, if you guys are this big thing, then let's talk about money and let's get all. And you're like, no, no, no, we're, we're we're an indie media, you know, like you got to throw all the it's a thing, you know.
00:48:33.940 — 00:48:52.000 · Speaker 1
But that's a good that's a good way to phrase it. There's a part of me that was like, should I be ashamed of what I am? Like, am I just a YouTuber and I should I just, you know, because I actually love the YouTube community in general and have really grown to like, appreciate that community. And I was like, almost ashamed of being ashamed.
00:48:52.480 — 00:50:00.700 · Speaker 2
You're going to get a lot of labels. Let's let's talk about labels for a second. Actually, this is great because you're creative. You're an art director at Buck. Correct? Yeah. And this has been my dilemma, man. Like I'm a designer. I can code. Not great, but like enough to build products that get bought.
I make media, and now I kind of. I'm not I don't edit my own videos anymore, but I used to be the only person who would edit my videos and like, I'm moving out of certain production so I can focus on other things. And now it's like I have existential crises about am I like, what am I the author of? I've had. So I've gone through this kind of evolution of that part of it.
There are art directors who are very much in the day to day get their hands dirty all day long. They're contributors, and there are some art directors who do a lot less of that. And I find myself like an I almost call myself like an accidental creative director today, because it's a lot of what I've been doing more and more.
How do you think about the labels of what you do? Like, you know, what do you what do you tell people you do at Buck? Or how do you describe that to people not in the field?
00:50:02.020 — 00:50:04.819 · Speaker 1
I mean, right now I feel like because
00:50:06.140 — 00:50:25.820 · Speaker 1
because it's so new, I still describe myself as a graphic designer, art director most of the time, which, you know, at some point that'll change when when Super Ordinary is like the full time, all time gig. Yeah, I don't know. Um, I, I'm with you. I feel like as I become even an art director,
00:50:27.180 — 00:50:38.660 · Speaker 1
sometimes it feels like it's a more impressive title, but it feels a little less like hands on designer, and I. I never want to be completely hands off or not creating.
00:50:38.940 — 00:50:40.020 · Speaker 2
Just a manager.
00:50:40.380 — 00:52:19.460 · Speaker 1
Yeah, you're just making decks all the time. Like cool guy. Um, but at the same time, as you get older, it's like being hands on all the time can get really exhausting. And it is appealing to be like helping shepherd other designers to get the most out of their creativity and everything. I don't know, I'm trying to just stick more like I'm a creative.
And as far as mindset goes. Like, I'm a creative because that encompasses. And even as I was coming up as a designer, I tried to think in those terms because calling myself a designer, I think put myself too much in a, a category or a bucket, like a designer uses this software and they do this kind of thing. And the whole reason I got into motion design was because I, you know, I saw that stuff that Buck was doing and they were using puppets and they were using, you know, star motion and all these things, which was like, well, that's what I want to do.
Like, I want to, like, not just be on a computer all the time, but I want to be like, you know, mixing mediums a little bit, and so I always thought of myself as a creative. More so than just a designer. And I think that kind of helped me solve problems in unique ways as well. And I don't know if that is something for anybody else, designers out there that it's it's easy to be like, oh, okay, I'm a designer and this is a software that a designer uses.
But in the end you're just a problem solver, problem solver. And there's a lot of different ways to solve a problem and doesn't always have to be digital. And sometimes clients will be open to that if you present that to them. Not all the time. But, um, it's really interesting if you allow yourself to be more open on how to solve a problem, what things will, you know.
00:52:19.500 — 00:52:27.660 · Speaker 2
Clients might be receptive to. It's funny, I, I think I spammed the absolute shit out of your Instagram DMs. I was like, dude, it worked.
00:52:27.740 — 00:52:28.100 · Speaker 1
I'll tell.
00:52:28.100 — 00:52:29.540 · Speaker 2
You, the first episode.
00:52:29.540 — 00:52:29.740 · Speaker 1
Was.
00:52:29.740 — 00:52:39.320 · Speaker 2
Incredible. I'm like, man, you are inspiring the crap out of me. And I look back and I'm like, oh dude, I, I showed my wife. I'm like, I was like, I can't, I think I, I think I was a little extra.
00:52:39.720 — 00:53:05.120 · Speaker 1
Well, and I'm not I'm not promoting this to anybody to do the same thing. But I will say it worked, because during that time I was getting like a ton of messages. I was trying to get back to everybody, and I was trying to just be a good person and like, respond. But the fact that you kept going and going eventually I was like, who's this Tommy guy?
Like, he kept keeps messaging me. Then I was like, then we finally talked and I was like, okay, yeah. So he's not he's not as.
00:53:05.120 — 00:53:08.160 · Speaker 2
Crazy as these DMs make him seem. I guess I'll I'll talk to him.
00:53:08.200 — 00:53:27.160 · Speaker 1
It was more so I just I was overwhelmed at the time with how many. Yeah. Uh, offers people were giving me to, like, help out with their brand and things like that. So there was just a a lot. So it worked. It worked. We're here now and I'm talking to you. And it's been like, you're super cool guy. And like, I wouldn't mind meeting in person one day if ever that ever happens.
00:53:27.160 — 00:53:28.560 · Speaker 2
But see, so for all.
00:53:28.600 — 00:53:29.920 · Speaker 1
Of you just in Arizona, right?
00:53:29.920 — 00:53:32.800 · Speaker 2
You're not I mean, you're in, uh, Utah, I think.
00:53:32.840 — 00:53:34.920 · Speaker 1
Yep. So we're not we're not too far away.
00:53:35.000 — 00:53:47.860 · Speaker 2
Yeah. Oh, well, we'll make this happen. And because I really want to see hands on how you direct, how you create. Let me ask you a question. Last, last to to top off the label combo. How do you feel when I call you a filmmaker?
00:53:48.740 — 00:53:54.340 · Speaker 1
So that one's actually interesting. I actually love that, but it's not something I would have ever called myself.
00:53:54.580 — 00:53:58.500 · Speaker 2
Do you feel like after Super Ordinary? Do you feel like a filmmaker right now? Do you feel like.
00:53:58.540 — 00:55:06.880 · Speaker 1
Like I still I still don't feel like a filmmaker. I don't know how what that will take. I guess, but people call me that. Like, that's how they refer to me more so than anything else is like a filmmaker, and they refer to my episodes as like short films or thing, you know, things like that. I think the only reason I don't feel like a filmmaker and this is like a weird thing to say based on what Super Ordinary stands for, is because I don't have, like, formal education and being a filmmaker or like, so it's not like I came up being like, I want to be a filmmaker.
This is what I'm going to be. It's like I kind of just slipped into this more filmmaker role. And now that's that is exactly what I'm doing now pretty much is exactly what a filmmaker would do and like going into season two. Me and my brother are trying to storyboard more and like, be a little more organized, doing all the things that filmmakers probably do now or just discovering why it's beneficial.
Um, but I don't mind it. It's again, it's like I try not to put myself in one box because I like to add a lot of motion design and things. That's not typical in a regular film, I guess, and I think that's interesting to me.
00:55:06.920 — 00:55:14.240 · Speaker 2
So did you did you tell yourself, I want to be a designer? Was that like a thing that you set out loud or internally once?
00:55:14.280 — 00:55:49.660 · Speaker 1
Uh, no, it's not actually. So I the way I came about, design was an interesting road because I, I used to paint a lot in high school, and I used to do videos with my cousins. I was like my creative outlets, but I didn't see I was from a small farm town. I didn't really see a path. For me. It wasn't obvious. It's not like people were extremely discouraging, but they just.
They didn't know either. Like the adults in my life. Yeah. My. My parents were very supportive of whatever I wanted to do, but, like, I talked to counselors at my high school and they're like, well, you could be an art teacher.
00:55:50.740 — 00:56:12.059 · Speaker 1
That's all I know. Like, no one really knew any creative paths. And so even like, Hollywood was like some distant land far away that like, I had no idea how to get into that. And so as I was trying to figure out what I wanted to do, I remember some it was like a senior girl gave me a disc that had like a
00:56:13.100 — 00:57:02.400 · Speaker 1
pirated version of Photoshop on it, and I started messing around with the software a bit. And that's kind of when I first learned about Photoshop and design. Someone came to our school from one of the nearby colleges, and he was like one of the professors of design, so I kind of got into it, but I was also interested in being like a seminary teacher.
Like a religious teacher. And in order to, like, take that path, you had to earn a degree in something of a bachelor's in something. So I was like, well, I'm just I'm going to do this, but my real I'm going to be this other thing. But then I ended up just falling in love with design along the way. So I just kind of stuck with it from there.
But I was never like, I'm going to be a designer. I was like, I'm gonna be a seminary teacher, and I just gotta do this thing so well.
00:57:02.440 — 00:57:59.260 · Speaker 2
And because it's it's funny, I'm the same way I became a designer because I was trying to be a developer. I wanted to build products, and I was not great at coding. In fact, I kind of hated debugging, which a lot of my code sucked. So most of the time was spent debugging. And then the field opened up for more user interface work, and I was like, that seems like that's right up my alley.
And so I find it funny when you say, I don't say I'm going to be a filmmaker. I don't say I'm gonna be a designer. Yet here we are. And when you think about labels, I said I was going to top it off, but you think about who? Who am I making this media for? And that has been such a hard question for me to answer for this show because it's like, well, designers are typically the people paying attention.
And then there's design adjacent roles product managers, developers, general creatives. But it's like, I guess I'm making it for anyone who's ever thought about creativity on the internet. And it's like, is that actually a good persona?
00:57:59.300 — 00:58:56.799 · Speaker 1
I'm in the same boat because, and I think it's okay for us to not have it so narrowed down right off the gate. Like, I think it's okay for things to organically be figured out along the way. And that's kind of how I made my episodes, was just I'm gonna organically let it kind of figure itself out. But I'm in the same boat.
I made the first episode, and so much of the audience was like, designers. And they're like, I'm excited about this. And I think everyone thought it was gonna be like a design makeover show. And I was like, duh. That's like, not really what I want to make. And that was the biggest thing in my head. I do remember it's like, that's not really what I'm what I want to make.
I want to be able to, like, explore all these avenues of creativity, not just design. I want to do design along the way. I love design, it'll always be part of the series. But for the thing that I wanted to enjoy and the thing I wanted to make, it's like this more broad spectrum, and I started getting a lot of messages from people who are like, I
00:58:58.120 — 00:59:21.360 · Speaker 1
always loved creativity. I chose this field instead. And I always kind of regretted it or wished I would have like, tried this. And a senior series has kind of given me some inspiration to at least, like, did my toes back in the water. And so I think there's a space for yes, there's the professional creatives, and I always want my episodes to appeal
00:59:22.480 — 01:00:28.120 · Speaker 1
to professional creatives. And I think that's why I shoot the way I do, because those who enjoy that stuff can ogle and ogle over, like, oh, I love these shots, I love these. They can appreciate it. I don't think I'm gonna ever dive in super deep on how to create a brand. I think I will do that on the side. Like that will be a separate thing that if someone wants to know more, there will be a place for that.
But I think my approach so far has been I want to take creativity in things that might feel niche, like pancake art making, and bring that to the masses, bring it to someone who, like, can enjoy that, whether they know anything about creativity or not, and feel inspired and feel like it's maybe like, oh, creativity is approachable, I guess because you can do it with anything around you.
You don't have to have this or that. So I don't know if that's the best. I don't know if that's the best strategy yet. We'll see. Um, it's like it would have been easier to just to niche down to graphic design specifically, But for now, that's the way I'm approaching it.
01:00:28.160 — 01:00:53.880 · Speaker 2
Well, and it taps into kind of the absurdity that works really well as a visual spectacle. And so let's get into the weeds for a second. I look at, all right, I look at my videos right now and like I said, I'm trying to prioritize a little bit of the narrative, crafting a new kind of it's very new for me to do it this way.
And then we're trying to bring some good visuals into the mix. So there's a lot of monograph, but then I look at.
01:00:54.000 — 01:00:57.000 · Speaker 1
Which looks awesome, by the way, after I saw some episodes, I was like, dang.
01:00:57.040 — 01:01:25.980 · Speaker 2
The team's going to be stoked. And I may, you know, I don't I don't know if you watched one or skimmed it. I may ask you for a point of feedback. And by the way, kind not nice is our as our saying, I don't want niceness. I want you to be kind. Help me. Help me not suck if this fast is fine. But to get to the question, when I look at something like the hair episode, which scared my mom, by the way, until she saw the final product, she was stoked.
She was like, this is weird. And then she watched. She's like, oh! And I was like, I was like, okay, mom, you get it? This is just so weird.
01:01:25.980 — 01:01:27.620 · Speaker 1
But it's fun to now.
01:01:28.140 — 01:01:57.540 · Speaker 2
And so we we watched it and, uh, you know, the, the early, the opening with, I think it was your wife and the hair and the kind of like, music video of it all. And then sometimes you'll like, cut like the Brady Bunch squares of you do some great work. A lot of it is I think most of it's very practical. So my question to you is walk me through the process for creating that music.
Shot the music video of the hair scene.
01:01:58.940 — 01:02:53.480 · Speaker 1
Um, so I the way my mind has always worked is if I can hear something, I can see it. And so if I have a song picked out or, or something like that, visuals pop into my head so easy. I don't know if that's how many people work, but at least for me, uh, that's how it is. So once I kind of had a song picked out, those visuals just kind of came to me, and I think the way they come to you is exposing yourself to other, uh, good artworks or good videos and things like that, because then you get this library of ideas in your head that you can kind of cherry pick from and make your own that that process.
There was an idea of like, okay, the other two episodes, like one was nature, one had this kind of Wes Anderson feel, I want to do this thing that just like pops and like, takes you by surprise because it starts out kind of dark and moody, and I just want it to be like this, like this.
01:02:53.480 — 01:02:54.600 · Speaker 2
Poppy music.
01:02:54.600 — 01:03:01.400 · Speaker 1
Video vibe. So I kind of had an idea of what I was going to do, but it's just my garage. And we went in there and
01:03:02.480 — 01:04:08.260 · Speaker 1
you got to give yourself time to experiment, because it's not going to turn out the way you envision all the time, which it didn't. So a lot of the shots I thought I was going to do, I didn't do some of the thoughts I didn't think I was going to do, ended up turning out better than I thought. So I had to just get in the garage.
And I brought, you know, my brother and my my other sister. She wanted to kind of see what was going on. So we invited her to come help out and we just messed around with shots like moving the camera. Different angles have it. So Akins was pregnant at the time too, so she couldn't do a lot of moving. In fact, I think she got pretty winded after doing some of those hair flips and I was like, are we done?
Yes. Abusive. Like, should I be making my wife, my pregnant wife be doing these hair flips over and over because it's not quite right? Um, but yeah, it was just like it was a lot of experimenting and then getting in the edit and and trying stuff out, moving stuff around. And then I did have to go back and try a few more things, which isn't the most productive way of working.
But as far as like creative experimentation, it's it's a good way to be. So I didn't have like a storyboard or I had a bit of a shot list, but not a storyboard.
01:04:08.300 — 01:04:10.220 · Speaker 2
Do you storyboard ever for any of the shots?
01:04:10.260 — 01:04:11.700 · Speaker 1
I haven't yet, I haven't yet.
01:04:11.700 — 01:04:12.580 · Speaker 2
Interesting.
01:04:12.580 — 01:04:14.780 · Speaker 1
But I I'm gonna try
01:04:15.820 — 01:04:32.880 · Speaker 1
a version of storyboarding into season two. I think it'll be storyboarding, but it might be a little less visual and more like an audio storyboard because like I said, when I have audio laid down, I can envision things so and I can figure out the pacing of things as well. So do.
01:04:32.880 — 01:04:33.800 · Speaker 2
You script.
01:04:34.600 — 01:04:38.800 · Speaker 1
As far for the voiceover? I write scripts for the voiceover, but anything you have like.
01:04:38.800 — 01:04:44.080 · Speaker 2
Script, you script shots like like bullet points, like, you know, a hair montage.
01:04:44.680 — 01:05:46.260 · Speaker 1
Um, pretty pretty rough. Yeah. It'll like I knew I was gonna do the intro. I knew I was gonna do. But a lot of the time, you don't know how these projects are going to turn out. That's part of the hard part is like. So, for example, for the pancake episode, um, I had an idea of what I wanted to do. And then when things didn't turn out how I thought they were going to turn out, I had to like, derail a bit and think of a new way to do things.
The Rock one. So like the second episode, we had no idea what we were going to like, make or run into. So it was really hard to create, you know, a layout of what the video is going to be when you just. Part of the video is just going up and seeing what you can make. So it's like, you know, you have basic storytelling in your head of like, okay, how we introduce the concept, going to do the thing, doing the thing, having a wrap up.
But when you're doing these, you know, non-scripted ideas, you don't know how things are going to turn out. And that's part of the the creative challenge, I think as well.
01:05:46.580 — 01:05:57.180 · Speaker 2
That's what I'm finding is true for this. We'll film these interviews or we'll film the on location for other series, and then I have to kind of watch it and find the the story and then build the narrative around it. Right.
01:05:57.220 — 01:06:29.040 · Speaker 1
I think, I think the skill, like there's the skill of being able to storyboard something out, which is an incredible skill. And if you can follow through with a story and it turns out how you want, that's amazing. There's also a skill of being able to react to your environment when you're there, which I think is extremely important because I have had so many shots where I have it in my head, and then I get there and shoot it, and I'm like, that did not look like I just maybe not.
I don't have the skills to make it look how I wanted it to, but now I need to pivot because that's not having the impact I wanted it to or whatever.
01:06:29.240 — 01:06:36.600 · Speaker 2
It's that's refreshing to hear you say that, because I feel like I run into that a lot. How much of of storytelling do you find
01:06:37.640 — 01:06:49.720 · Speaker 2
in your skill set of presenting designs, ideas, concepts to clients? How much overlap, and is there anything that's like a key difference between the media that you're producing now and delivering ideas to clients?
01:06:49.760 — 01:06:55.639 · Speaker 1
I, I had a, um, a creative director at one time, kind of like
01:06:56.880 — 01:09:31.380 · Speaker 1
show me how he did this. And it really changed my perception of presenting work to clients. Um, because, like when I was helping build decks early on in my design career, it's like you were just trying to show in the most pretty way the stuff that you made. So they'd be impressed When he built the deck, he was building a story and like he'd.
He'd show like, the genesis of a logo idea and have it slide by slide, kind of. Build and change. And so without even having to explain it visually, you could. Like, see, oh, this is where this has come from. And this is now I get the idea. Of the logo. And so he showed me very quickly and very visually how presenting an idea is a presentation.
It is a story that you're trying to tell and it shouldn't be treated as anything else. I was talking to my brother about this because he's an animator and he's made, um, you know, reels and things like that for his trying to present his animations or like, character designs and stuff. And all the advice he was given was sort of the opposite.
And I was always trying to give him the opposite. Devices like you are presenting and why not present your work in the most you know? Create it like the presentation should be just as creative as the work itself. That's coming from a designer's perspective. I think for other artists it's like, no, the work should speak for itself, which if it's good work, it will.
But why not present it in the best presentation you possibly can? One thing that was really interesting when I released episode one is how many companies reached out to me wanting that same thing, and I was like, man, if I was trying to continue doing design work, this is a good way to do it. Like I did this video that showed the process that told the story, and so many companies got interested in me as a designer wanting to do work for them because like, you know, how to make this brand come to life, it doesn't even mean like they love the design at the end, but they I think they got invested and felt like I could represent them in that same way.
So I just gotta open up my eyes. I was like, man, if I was going to try to get out there as a designer now, I'd probably try to do something like this because that would, like get people on your board faster than trying to direct them to like a portfolio might, you know, like one good project like this has done more for me than a portfolio.
01:09:31.660 — 01:10:04.060 · Speaker 2
We're seeing some great collaborations like Fons Mann's, if you're familiar with him at all. He does some great. He's made a name for himself on certain social platforms for being a great designer. He'll partner with companies, he'll kind of show the process, and it's almost it becomes the same way. You might see like a kid super collaboration with such and such.
It's almost like you see this, like, cool, uh, noteworthy designer collaboration with contra or with some, you know, framer or somebody. And it's it's an interesting it's something to call out. I'll dive deep into this on the episode when.
01:10:04.060 — 01:10:11.680 · Speaker 1
You hire someone or when you're looking at someone, do you look at portfolios or do you look through their social media like work.
01:10:12.280 — 01:10:41.200 · Speaker 2
I have been hiring on social media primarily. I typically look for I say, hey, show me like your 4 or 5 best pieces of work that you're proud of, and let's let's go. Let's start there. Um, and I want to see outputs. I don't, you know, I want to see we can because we'll get into the we'll get into the details if we get into a conversation.
But like starting out, like show me what's show me what's cool. Let me see what you're sharing. Let me see what you're working on. How about you.
01:10:41.720 — 01:11:08.240 · Speaker 1
Know, that's the one thing I'm starting to realize. Like when when someone wants to show me their work, the first place I go to is to see their work on their social as a first, first way in. Like you said, after you see that, then you might want to see in more detail how they'd actually pull off, uh, you know, a project in more detail and everything.
But it's interesting because my first portfolio was a physical book. I don't think anybody saw that
01:11:09.460 — 01:11:14.740 · Speaker 1
It was like a good project to make and learn how to make it. But even out the gate.
01:11:15.060 — 01:11:18.020 · Speaker 2
Got like it. Like at staples, like a binded book with like.
01:11:18.420 — 01:12:03.940 · Speaker 1
It was like better than staples. I got like, I mean, I was like, so excited about this thing. It's like a canvas, like covered book with like, these nice printed pages and everything. So it was like a work of art in and of itself. That was just because, like when I that was just, I think the way the university taught it was, oh yeah, you got to make your portfolio book, you know.
And it did, it did teach me to like, organize my projects in a way that looked nice. So I didn't just have like a scattering of images, but I actually like I found a good way to present on my projects and like, photographed certain ones and things like that. Yeah, it's it's interesting now because I've noticed for myself, I first look at people's Instagrams.
01:12:03.940 — 01:12:04.420 · Speaker 2
Or whatever.
01:12:04.420 — 01:12:07.480 · Speaker 1
Wherever they might have their work first as a the first way.
01:12:07.480 — 01:12:59.800 · Speaker 2
In the way of creative work. Um, I think it's changing a lot and it's going in a lot of different directions. And, uh, it's just really interesting to see the new chapters opening up from a lot of people like you and I and a number of other folks, people are getting into coding. They're building their own products, their own studios, their own media companies.
And it's, uh, I agree with you. There's never been a better time to be able to do it. There's never been a better time for the little person to not have to get, you know, the number of gatekeepers is so much smaller now, and I think that's really important. And I think it's easy to get kind of cynical about some of the trade offs that that brings.
Um, so it's really nice to hear from people who are just kind of figuring it out. And we don't. You and I both don't have answers. I think people would look at you and I and say, they have it figured out, and you and I are here saying, we don't have a clue.
01:12:59.840 — 01:13:32.140 · Speaker 1
That is like, I don't know how many times I have to tell. Like, people ask me for advice. I'm doing a documentary like what's your I like? I don't. I've never made a documentary before. Like, I don't know what to tell you. So I am. Yeah. It's like we're we're figuring it out too. But I think, like you said, we're in a new age of creativity.
There's the rise of AI and all these things that can feel so intimidating. But I feel like because of the rise of all these things, there's never been a better time for,
01:13:33.220 — 01:13:50.180 · Speaker 1
like, the human side of things to come out. If you can stay to where you're not letting AI intimidate you, it doesn't mean you have to like, embrace it or whatever. Like if you don't want to. But I think there's always going to be a place for people who
01:13:51.500 — 01:16:26.560 · Speaker 1
want to be creative, because I think there's always going to be people who are interested in the the human side of creativity. There's always going to be the spectacle. You know, there's always going to be, um, yeah, there's going to be jobs replaced with with all this stuff as well, which is like sad. But there's going to be opportunities that come up that were never there before.
I hope there's animators who can make an animated film with a small team, and then we can see some of those stories, and you don't need millions and millions of dollars to create this budget. You know, that's like some of the upsides. Hopefully as we got, we get to see some more of these things and more people can maybe start making the stuff that they've been wanting to make.
And it might just be because I'm a creative, I, I try to base like how I feel about things or I try to I try to believe that way and I feel something. There's other people that feel the same way. And when I'm scrolling through and I see something's made from I, the amount I care is very little. And I scroll right past and it's like, interesting to see, but I don't care that much because I think I when I see someone do something incredible, I'm amazed by it because it's another human Then there were on the same level, and I'm seeing that someone on the same level as me has done something amazing.
And that's amazing to me. When I watch people play sports and they do something amazing, that's why it's incredible because it's like, oh, we're humans. I'm just like you, but you just did this amazing thing. If it's a robot shooting a full court shot over and over with complete accuracy and it's like, well, that's I'm glad you got that dialed in.
Like, that's cool, but like, I want a robot. Yeah, you're a robot. Congratulations. I think it's the same thing when you see, like a, you know, an AI image made some of it's like the spectacle and it's really interesting to see. I'm not impressed. I'm not like, wow, like Bravo AI. It's just like, oh, like it's it's cool that it's it's made and it can be made so fast, but we're not in the same level like you're a computer.
You're. And so I, I the amount I care is a lot less. I feel like you're doing something similar to what I'm trying to do and not not do things. Not do things the way they've always been done. When I watched the interview that you had done. I was that was the thing that stood out to me was like, oh, this took a bit of effort.
This could have been really low effort, interview style, just showing the back and forth that you put in all this effort. And I,
01:16:28.400 — 01:17:34.460 · Speaker 1
I feel like that is the opposite of what everyone's trying to do right now. Everyone's trying to find the the lowest effort way to do something. I don't know if that's going to pay off, but that is also kind of what I'm trying to do. I took like ordinary things. I did like the highest effort like possible sometimes with some of these things.
Um, but I think, I think that is something that'll pay off as, as people take the, you know, paths of least resistance. Sometimes taking those the opposite way will help you stand out. It's definitely going to make you have a lot more work. And it's like, uh, is this is this paying off? I don't know, maybe we should like, cut back on, on some of these visuals.
But that was I will say, that's one thing that really stood out to me when I watched. It was just like, okay. Yeah. Like this took effort and it it can be glued and that's for sure. So bravo on that. We'll figure it out together. I don't know, maybe we'll both be like, oh man, we're spending so much time and we have like no views.
So it's like co-op on the AI train. All right, we're full.
01:17:34.500 — 01:18:52.440 · Speaker 2
AI bros now. Here we go. This was one of my favorite conversations of the year, probably because it resonated so closely with the work I'm doing right now. And what he discovered, like I did, is that the work resonates the most when you're making something that you'd actually enjoy, which sounds obvious, but try doing that when you have algorithms whispering in one ear and unpaid bills in the other, and scaling creative work is a lot easier when you accept help.
Devin made most of his episodes solo. That's design, filming, editing, everything, and he quickly learned that that was not sustainable. I had to learn that lesson too. But the moment you bring other people in, you risk diluting the part that made it so special to you. And there is no clean answer here.
We are all just kind of figuring it out. Devin's still processing the filmmaker label, and I'm still processing. Media lab founder, whatever that means. But maybe the labels don't really matter. Maybe what matters is we're making something we care about for people who care about the same thing, and we're pretty honest about not having any of it figured out, and I don't think most people do.
Not even the people whose work you admire the most. I'll see you next time.