Empower Apps

Peter comes on for our annual discussion of the WWDC 2023 Platforms State of the Union including Macs, Macros, Swift Data, watchOS, and the other thing 🥽.


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Creators & Guests

Leo Dion
Swift developer for Apple devices and more; Founder of BrightDigit; husband and father of 6 adorable kids
Moved to https://t.co/cMG5BnWESw

What is Empower Apps?

An exploration of Apple business news and technology. We talk about how businesses can use new technology to empower their business and employees, from Leo Dion, founder of BrightDigit.

Leo Dion (host): welcome to a very
special live episode of Empower Apps.

With all the technical difficulties
you can imagine, this is not as

professionally, this is why Apple
doesn't do live events anymore.

in case you're wondering it wasn't
a pandemic, it was cuz of this.

I'm your host, Leo Dion
once again, episode 151.

Joined by our annual and sometimes
semi-annual guest Peter with them

to talk about today's events.

Mostly platform, state of the union, but
also a little bit of keynote thrown in

because there was a lot of stuff today.

Peter, thank you so much
for coming back on the show.

Peter Witham (guest): Oh, Leo.

Always a pleasure.

And it's nice that we got this
book marked in our calendar, right?

This agreement that we have with Apple
every year they'll do their thing,

then they'll let us do our thing.

So thank you for having me back on.

Leo Dion (host): Yeah.


So we'll have a link to the recording
we just did on Compile Swift on the

keynote mostly complaining about wh
what, why the Mac Pro is a thing.

And now we'll talk about
platform, state of the Union.

So what did you think of the
platform, state of the Union, Peter?

Peter Witham (guest): I, I liked it.

There was a few things, that
we'll go through here that,

that caught my attention.

I think we get a lot of gifts every
year as developers, but I feel this

year we were given a whole bunch of
extra gifts to work through, some of

which I'm sure we will cover in this
episode, but I came away from the

State of the Union this year feeling

Pretty darned excited to
play with some of the things.

Some of the topics we'll talk about
here, reworking some old stuff,

embracing lots of new things.

What did you think?

Leo Dion (host): I think there's
a lot, I think we've seen the

fruition of years of work.

And I think for us it was a, I
think you're gonna see this in the

news stories tomorrow about the
big thing Apple revealed this year.

And of course I'm talking
about swift macros.

Just amazing.

Swift macros are amazing.

They're gonna change technology forever.

But in all serious let's jump into it.

I wanna talk about swift macros
actually, because I've been hearing

about this for a year and I'm like what
the heck is the point in swift macros?

And it was like Holly talked about
swift macros and explain it, and

it's we're doing swift macros
for SWIFT ui, we're doing swift

macros for core, the new core data.

We're doing SWIFT macros for this.

We're, it's like when when we heard
about SWIFT DSL and we're like, what

the heck's the point in Swift dsl?

And then SWIFT UI came out
and it was like, oh, okay.

It's like the same thing all over again.

It's like they, they like,
we're gonna, we just, we really

like this language feature.

It's really nice.

We're gonna add swift macros.

And then it's okay, whatever
Apple, that's what you want to do.

It's funny too with the fact that
like swift language is open source

and I'm a totally different.

and like Apple stuff is like secretive
and not anything you know about.

And then you're like, come to dub
and it's oh, this is, we with macros

is such a big deal to people and
especially at Apple, which is fine.

Like I see it, I see a lot of it.

It's gonna, I think it's gonna make a
lot of the swift Jen and like the whole

swift co-generation stuff in a good way.

Sher sherlocked.

But yeah.

What do you think.

Peter Witham (guest): I was fascinated
by this because I had actually, I, so

I'd read about this before and then got
busy, and pretty much forgot about it.

And then I rushed to the state of
the Union today and I joined it as

they were talking about swift macros,
and I'm like, wait this sounds

familiar, and I'm trying to rack my
brain and I'm watching them do this.

And they're like you just put
this macro at the beginning.

And I'm like, okay.

And the point is, and I, and they're,
and then they're like, say you don't

have to do these rappers and things.

And I'm like, Okay.

And the point is, and then I was like,
I need to go back and watch this again.

And then our sort of the second
time rounds were like, oh, okay.



Because it, the first time was
like, did you just wanna put an

ax symbol in front of something?

What's that about?

Leo Dion (host): Right, yeah.


And think it's, I think
it's gonna be super useful.

I haven't been had the chance to
wrap my head around it, but like

I'm really excited to try it out
and see how it just how it's gonna

work and how those pieces fit.

So we've got attributes and
then you have freestanding, like

pound based, hash based macros.

They did a great example with url, which
is a classic example of just compile.

Now we have compile, we can do
compile time URLs, which is awesome.

And I think it just brings a lot of
that strong type safety that we've taken

for granted with SWIFT and moved over.

I think, yeah, we'll get into Swift ui.

Was there anything else about
macros you wanted to talk

Peter Witham (guest): Yeah.

No I think it, it feels like one of
those things where I think the more I

use it, the more I'm gonna be, oh, okay.

I see how this is filling the gaps.

Those, like you say, those
little awkward spots that we've

had to deal with for a few
years and we've all got our own

workarounds and things like that.

And it feels like now there's
apples come back and said, okay,

we accept and we feel your pain.

We think this is gonna do it for you.

Take it and see what it does.

So I'm gonna be playing around with it.

Yeah, for sure.


Leo Dion (host): There was
a, there was something else

I was gonna say about macros.


I think there's gonna be a lot of
use cases of macros being useful in

the sense of swift package plugins.

I think now they're gonna
be a little bit more useful.

I could see that.

Especially with co-generation, yeah.

The other thing we're finally getting
that I forgot about cuz I haven't done

anything with it in a long time, but c
plus on interoperability is a big deal.

I don't think people can
understand how big of a deal it is.

There's a ton of libraries out
there that are c plus base that

we've had to bridge over using c
I did a tutorial on it years ago.

When I dabbled into it, and luckily
now that's no longer useful.

We can actually directly work with c
plus and I'm really curious about that.

I'm looking forward to some of
those talks cuz there's just a ton.

There's like a ton of c plus
libraries out there that that now

we can take advantage of and use.

And you can, you could have c
plus code along with your swift,

I think, in a package or app.

So yeah, I think it's gonna be useful.

Peter Witham (guest): it's gonna save a
lot of that, tho those discussions you

have with yourself of I need this thing.

Oh, do you know?

I don't want to have to rewrite it
though, or I don't have the time.

Guess what?

Now you don't have to.


So yeah, like you say, it's like
great, you can go back to that massive

bank of useful code and just use it,

Leo Dion (host): yep.


All right.

Do you wanna talk about
the Swift UI stuff?

There's a

Peter Witham (guest): Yeah.

Leo Dion (host): There's a lot.

There's a lot.

But I don't feel well.

There's one big gap that I
think it filled this year.

But there's a lot of small stuff too.

You want to cover the small stuff.

Peter Witham (guest): Yeah.

And I think we needed, this was one of
the things I was hoping for this year

was okay, I think you and I had even
spoken about it just in conversations

about, hey Apple, if you really want
people to use Swift ui, rather than just

forcing it on them, make it something
that people should use and want to use.

And I feel that's what we got this year.

Things like, the z incremental adoption.

I think a big one,
funny enough pie charts.

I know that kind of sounds a bit funny
and a bit weird, but if you stop and

you think about the amount of apps you
use and things like that, I'm betting

that as a users, you come across pie
charts a lot more than you think you

do, and so to make life easier there
with this and a nice addition to

the swift charting, it's like great.

Keep growing that package.

Leo Dion (host): I, I totally
I didn't touch Swift pa,

swift UI charts last year.

I just never had that time.

So I wasn't aware that was even
missing, but I'm not surprised.

So I'm happy

to see that.

Peter Witham (guest): See,
that's the funny part, right?

That's what I was saying about, one of
those filling the gaps where it's it

seems logical that you'd look and go
that must have been there since day one.

And then you're like,
you discover it's not,

Leo Dion (host): yeah.

Peter Witham (guest): so plug in
a lot of those gaps is good, that,

that makes it feel more mature.

And more more like you want to use
it because you're not gonna get that

Leo Dion (host): a, you
can use it out of the box.


Peter Witham (guest): yeah, exactly.


Leo Dion (host): I like the new
inspector view that I'm really

curious about using macOS, map kit.

Looks like they really moved that over
to Swift UI with like custom overlays,

but it seems like the big thing
this year that they tried to cover.

And I'm really I attended a talk
with Adam Bell swift Heroes on he

mostly dabbled in core foundation
stuff there, CF and all that

or core animation I should say.

Being that they really dumped into
animations this year on Swift ui.

We got the spring default, we got
animated SF symbols, which is awesome.

This new phase animator,
there's a lot here.

Peter Witham (guest): Yeah.


Funny enough for me, the big one I
use a lot of, I, I'm sure everybody

does, but I use a lot of SF symbols,
so having animated ones Yeah, please.

I think that, that's another thing
where it's great, I now don't have to

make my own third party version or do
it, scripting or something like that.

It's if you can just give me one
out of the box and I can trust that

it's optimized and just go with
it that's what I would prefer to

do and spend my time working on
the, that thing that Apple says.

Focus on the parts of the
app that make it your app.

And I feel like that's what, we got a
lot of that with the animation stuff.

Leo Dion (host): Yeah, I
think, yeah, there's gonna

be a lot of good stuff there.

Was there anything else on
animation you want to cover?

Peter Witham (guest): no,
I think that covers it.

Funny enough, I think over the years,
people have going to appreciate it more,

but I think it's also clear, like this
year with Apple putting this in the

subtle things like the animations, to
quote Apple, they give it your apps.

That extra bit of delight doesn't
seem like much on the surface, but

when you're using an app and it
does something in a nice way, even

with a simple animation, it makes
you stop and go, oh, that's cute.

That's cool.

And so these things are super
important, and they make it

stand out from just feeling like,
every other app that you see.

Do you know what I mean?

Leo Dion (host): Yeah.


So we got some interesting behind
the scene changes in Swift ui.

Speaking of swift macros with
this new observable macro,

They're, Donnie had a really good
post saying, is this like the

beginning of the end of combined.

They've like really simplified
is it state objects, state

this, da, published da.

Like all that stuff.

They really simplified it a lot.

And I am really curious going this
route in the future with Swift ui

because I do think, Donnie has a page
and I think there's a few other ones

that are just like, swift ey property
wrappers.com that like lists out all the

different property and how you use 'em.

And I think this is gonna
simplify that a lot.


I think, gosh, I wish I remembered who
said who was the presenter on that one,

but he said we've made it simpler to
use swift ey, but I don't remember the

exact quote, but now we're doing it,
the simple way is the right way to do it

Peter Witham (guest): Yeah.


Leo Dion (host): Encourages
better behavior in that case.

Peter Witham (guest): Oh, absolutely.

And it's I'm glad that we got this
because I had never really fully

appreciated this problem until I
think this year where I found a lot

of people when I'm doing my livestream
coding and things like that the

topics of, state binding environment,
objects, observables, all these things

would come up over and over again.

And that's when I started to realize,
yeah, you know what, if you don't keep

up using these all the time or if you're
new to it, yeah, there's a lot of them.

They can get confusing real fast as
to which one you should, it's it's

which, which tie goes with these socks?

That kind of problem.

So I

Leo Dion (host): that's exactly it.

Peter Witham (guest): yeah, so by having

Leo Dion (host): O'Reilly.

SH O'Reilly should come out
with a book or Koko with a book.

What's the right tie
with the right socks?

Peter's Peter Rhythms Guide
to Swift UI Property wrappers.

I like it.

Peter Witham (guest): Yeah.

That's it.

I'll just fill it with metaphors.

Your data is the sock, yeah.

And your view is the waist coat.

And now you wanna, you
want to put the socks on?

I th there's probably is a whole
book right there I could do, yeah.

Or just so you never thought rappers
were fashionable, but they are.


I, that's when I realized, yeah, this
actually is very confusing for people.

So it's gonna be interesting now
though, because now it, for those of

you that have been using these for
a while, we're gonna have to switch

our brains around to not doing it
the way we've got used to doing it.


Leo Dion (host): Or we, the classic
problem of real world people who

are still have to support iOS 15.

Peter Witham (guest): Yep.

Leo Dion (host): I don't know.

Okay, I'm overthinking this,
but sorry, this, if it's a

macro, it's built by Xcode.

It's not really a thing.

I don't know.

I don't know.

Peter Witham (guest): See,
that's the thing, right?

Leo Dion (host): If it's compiler
side, if it's compiler side,

I don't think it ma I don't
think that should be a problem.


Peter Witham (guest): It shouldn't

Leo Dion (host): this like one
hour after I downloaded code 15,

so I apologize for my audience
not knowing this, but yeah

Peter Witham (guest): So
that's gonna be one of those.

Tune in tomorrow and
Leo's gonna explain it,

Leo Dion (host): yeah.

So anyway, yeah.

I don't know, but I have a feeling.

Yeah it's gonna be there's
definitely some stuff here that's

gonna take a while to be adopted,

Peter Witham (guest): Oh yeah.


But this was a ne I think this
one is a necessary thing, so I'm

glad that they've done it Now,
I don't, I will, I'll put this

out there for everybody now.

Don't freak out.

It's not like going from Swift two to
Swift three or something like that.

It's not that bad.

This is

Leo Dion (host): no going,

Peter Witham (guest): this
is gonna take less code.

Leo Dion (host): spoiler alert, going
to Swift six is going to be like going

Peter Witham (guest): Yeah.

Leo Dion (host): Swift four.

Trust me.

I looked at that.

I've been looking at Swift six and I've
been testing my apps for Swift six and

there's a lot, there's a lot there.

Good in the long term,
but that short bump of.

Having to do type thread safety and
dealing with inex existential types.

It's, there's gonna be some pain there.

So I'm glad they, I'm glad they
delayed that for next year.


Peter Witham (guest): yeah.

That keeps you employed
for another year.

So that, thank you Apple for thinking
about us, and saying look, if we

keep changing everything, it keeps
everybody employed rewriting their

same code over and over again.

Thanks Apple.

Leo Dion (host): Thank you Apple.

Okay, I'm gonna cover
the easy iOS stuff.

We already talked about game development
and game porting in the previous in

your compiled Swift episode and the
keynote, we talked about gaming and

all that, so please check that out.

I'm not gonna talk about here.

Airdrop, we talked, we hinted at that,
but there's an airdrop API now we

can do with, I think using, touching
Your phone tip Kitt is really cool.

I'm gonna try that out where you can
post tips and it uses a native ui.

Siri more stuff with app.

Hence they've been talking about
Appin, hence for years heavily

hinting that we should all be using
app intents, I think like AR kit and

hundreds of other APIs that they've
kept telling us we should be using.

I think a Siri and app intensive
are another thing there.

Air and share play and things like that.

Peter Witham (guest): Yeah.

Leo Dion (host): Okay.

Have you done anything with widgets?

Peter Witham (guest): I haven't,
but now I want to, because, now

having seen, based on what we've
seen so far they feel useful.

And not to say that they weren't useful
before, but widgets, to me, on any

of the platforms was always like a
read only information kind of event.

I'm gonna look, see

it, forget

Leo Dion (host): was a black box
as far as how it gets updated.

Peter Witham (guest): Yep.


So for now that they're doing, in
particular the desktop on, on the

Mac for the widgets, across all the
platforms yeah, I think I would say that

they may finally feel useful enough that
I should give it some time and I think

there's, off the top of my head, one app
that I support that has a widget in it,

and even there the widget is just to get
you over into the app, but now I can do

something with it, something meaningful.

Leo Dion (host): And like we had
talked about in your episode, there's

a lot to iOS, a lot of, just like you
said, quality of life, improvements

with messages and iPhone and FaceTime.

I think people are gonna
see, so that's awesome.

And I'm sure we could tap into that.

Alright, last and not least when
it comes to Swift is this year that

they migrate core data over Peter.

What's the answer to that?

Peter Witham (guest): Oh, swift
dad of, I, I don't know you yet,

but you're my new best friend.


Leo Dion (host): You're the honey.

We're still in the honeymoon period.

Peter Witham (guest):
Yes, but let's just stay

Leo Dion (host): until you
open up, until you open up

Xcode and you find the five

Peter Witham (guest): Oh yeah.

Leo Dion (host): oh
wait, you can't do that.



Peter Witham (guest): I just,

Leo Dion (host): I'll write

Peter Witham (guest): use
it, it's my best thing ever.

Leo Dion (host): I wonder
how it works underneath.

Is it just to sql, a light database?

Can I just hack it to
do what I want it to do?

And post a new library on GitHub?

That's what you're gonna end up doing.

Peter Witham (guest):
that, that's what it is.

I'm gonna say, I'm gonna be, I'm
gonna be optimistic and say if it

can do 50% of the things that I feel
like it should or I wanted to, then

it's a win for year one of Swift Data
V one Oh, I guess it's a case of.


At least we've got it right.

We ripped off the Band-Aid.

It might bleed a little bit,
but at least we're on the path,

but I think it's exciting.

I think that finally having
something that doesn't feel it

was just let's push it under the
carpet of Swifty Eye and hope for

the best, and call it core data.

I think that it's gonna be interesting.

I will certainly, as someone who
just released an app with Core Data

and Cloud Kit and was surprised
how easy it was with Swift ui.

I want to see how much
easier it is with SWIFT data.


Leo Dion (host): Core data
is okay, so we've, we'll have

an episode about tourist.

I'm gonna have Pedro on from tourist,


I've had, I've used xcodegen, so
you've got storyboards are dead, right?

So that's one big get merge nightmare.

You don't have to deal with if you
migrate over to exco gen or two,

that removes another merge problem.

And I don't know a lot about these
model files in cor core data, but

they all seem like a black box to me.

They're probably some
XML stuff that scares me.

And now that's gone, right?

Because you could do the whole
scheme, I would assume, in Swift,

which I think is fantastic.

So I'm trying to look up, there's a
library I used I'm gonna look for it.

Maybe you gotta here delay me.

Talk about some something else with
Swift Data, while I look that up.

Peter Witham (guest): All right.

No, that's cool.

No, because th this is the thing, right?

With the Swift data again, this
is a topic that comes up a lot

that people ask me about where's
my data in my Swift UI app?

And how do I get it?

How do I make it available to different
scenes different views or, what?

Why doesn't exist in this
context or, what is context?

That's another one, right?

With core data.

And so if it can deal with even a
fraction of that with the swift data and

simplify almost kind of one of those,
can you simplify the sales's pitch to

make it understandable and meaningful
for folks so that they don't within five

minutes say, you know what, screw this.

I'm gonna go back to my sequel light,
or my realm, or, whatever it may be.

Firebase or whatever.

You gotta give us the sales pitch Apple
that, that makes people want to use

this because it doesn't sound as scary
as core data and from at least just

the preliminary code that they tried to
sell me on in the State of the Union.

I'm willing to buy into
it if it is that simple.

And I don't find that, oh it isn't
just a couple of lines and I've

gotta write all this, but the
idea of building my models right

there, In Swift appeals to me.

It's great, you've kept
me in the language.

I know, and feel comfortable as
opposed to going over to anyone

who's ever gone to Core Data and
is we're gonna edit the files now.

And, you open up that
view and it's what's this?

How does this work?

So being able to define
it, I think will help

Leo Dion (host): I
found the swift package.

I was gonna mention.

So there is a really good swift package
called Core Store by John Troia that

I've used before as a way not to do
model files and essentially could do the

Peter Witham (guest): Oh, okay.

Leo Dion (host): And Swift.

This is as close to the ideal
of what I was looking for.

If you're still supporting an
older os this is available to


But thank, thankfully, and no, no
disservice to John, but I'm glad

this is Sherlock to now because
this is something that's been

a long time coming that we've

But yeah.

Peter Witham (guest): at that one.


Leo Dion (host): yeah.

Because now we have, so the question
I posted on Twitter actually was

like, how, what if I wanted my model
in Core data and I wanted to use it

in Vapor, like how would I be able,
is there a way I can like, take that

model even though it's a model in.

Using Swift Macro and then extend it
so it's Codeable and then also it's

content, which is the protocol that
vapor requires for content delivery.

So I'm like curious if we could
still go with that route with

Core data now, or swift data.

Excuse me.

I'm assuming it should be a
issue, but that would be awesome.

Just be able to have your data The way
I do it, you have your data in one spot.

You say that data is able
to be used in swift data.

It's codeable, it's
also content and vapor.

And now like you have the same
model shirt in a full stack

application, which is really

Peter Witham (guest): yeah.

As we both know, the creators of Vaper
are fantastic and very responsive.

I am super confident if they don't
do it, someone in the community is

gonna figure out some translation

Leo Dion (host): at Apple will do it

Peter Witham (guest):
That would be great.


Leo Dion (host): Apple's been
fully supportive of Vapor and so

yeah, I wouldn't be surprised.

I wonder if there's any Yeah, just,
I'm gonna check, is there any server?

Peter Witham (guest): on it, me.

Leo Dion (host): Yeah, I'm looking
if there's any server stuff.

There's some stuff about App store
server, like checking receipts and

stuff, but I don't see anything

Peter Witham (guest): Oh.

Leo Dion (host): And nothing this
here on server side, which is fine.

Peter Witham (guest): Okay.

Leo Dion (host): they've done
Lambda talks and they've done Vapor,

so I'm totally okay with that.

But yeah.

Anything else on Swift data?

Peter Witham (guest): Yeah, no, I
think we've got a, this is gonna

be one of those 1.0 years for it.

And it might be a little painful at
first, but I, you get that feeling.

It's gonna be one of those that
Apple's gonna want you to embrace.

Might as well start practicing it now.


Leo Dion (host): Yeah.

Do you wanna say, there was
one talk this week called

Meet Swift Open API generator.

I've been working on
something like this,

Peter Witham (guest): Oh, you

Leo Dion (host): Apple Sherlock me on
that, so I'm really happy about that.


Peter Witham (guest): you know
you are onto a good thing.

Know you got it,

Leo Dion (host): yeah.

That's gonna be interesting.

I'm excited about that talk.



That's swift.

I think we covered all the swift stuff.

Hardware camera.

There was some camera stuff.

I don't have a lot to say about the
camera stuff, just enhancements.

They have a standard now for HDR photos,

Peter Witham (guest): yeah.



Leo Dion (host): Api, you
can tap screen, kick screen

capture kit, apple TV stuff.

Do you wanna talk about any of that?

Peter Witham (guest): I think
that, any of those is good, right?

Because there's, just like
there's a million camera apps,

but every so often there's a
real gem of an app comes along.

So the more of that stuff,
they expose nothing.

The built-in camera app and everything
is fine, if you look at the Halli app

or and things like that, there are
folks that take it to the next level.

So I'm always glad to see that
they get access to these APIs.

Leo Dion (host): I'm
gonna skip to values.

So a lot of stuff about accessibility,
about a certain piece of hardware.

They're doing a lot of stuff there for
accessibility, which is nice to see.

Peter Witham (guest): Yes, always

Leo Dion (host): animated images.

I didn't know that was a
thing that people needed.

Makes totally sense cuz I'm
super ignorant to that stuff.

I'm curious about the privacy manifest

Peter Witham (guest):
Yeah, that caught my eye.


Leo Dion (host): I'm
really happy to see that.

I hope people actually use it.

I hope App Store approval
actually enforces it

Peter Witham (guest):
That's what I was gonna say.

I hope that actually
Apple forces you to, so

Leo Dion (host): Sensitive content
analysis that is a whole can of worms.

As a parent, I am interested in
highly and I trust Apple with

privacy, so that's good to see.

I, what I may not trust is machine
learning, cuz it can be weird at times.

I know there's YouTubers who've
had weird issues of what's been

marked as inappropriate, when it
isn't inappropriate or if it's

inappropriate, but it's not it's a
piece of art, like a statue of David or


and it's yeah.

Anyways, so that's I'm really,
I'm curious about it also, I'm

curious if this has anything to
do with, gosh, what was that thing

you remember That they were gonna
put it in one of the 0.3 releases

Peter Witham (guest): Oh the one
that they, they decided since

people don't seem more keen on this,
it was gonna scan all your photo

library or something like that.

Leo Dion (host): That thing.

Peter Witham (guest): that's what,

Leo Dion (host): I don't know the name.

Peter Witham (guest): Yeah.

Leo Dion (host): Yeah.

Google already does it and I
think a few other companies

already do it with your stuff.

And Apple was gonna do it, and then they

Peter Witham (guest): Yeah.

And I will say, it's gonna be
interesting to see how this works

out for Apple because without
going into any details in my

day job we have to scan media.

Ex for ex exactly as being described
here, and as we just discussed.

And it's actually an incredibly
difficult problem because more often

than not it's not get, getting the,
catching the right things is not

easy, but relatively straightforward.

The problem is, like you said,
catching a lot of the wrong

things is actually very hard to
train this software for this.

So it'd be interesting.

Leo Dion (host): so I don't know
if you've read any stories about

the stuff at Facebook, but when
people talk about jobs that we want

to automate and people don't want
to have to do, I feel like this is

probably at the top of that list.

Peter Witham (guest): Oh yeah.


Leo Dion (host): you've followed any
of the horror stories about Facebook in

Peter Witham (guest): Oh I hadn't
seen specific stories, but I work

Leo Dion (host): but
they basically farm out.

They farm out people who have to go
through this stuff and find garbage.

And there's some pretty
awful things out there.

And I think that's a
great candidate for ai.

If we can outsource it to a non feeling
non-conscious person, a non-person

that just can identify it, I think
that would make a lot of people

mental health better and a lot easier.

And so hopefully, this is
a move in that direction.

We'll see.

Peter Witham (guest): Is a, it is a
very real serious problem because yeah.

Some of the stuff, the, again, the
day job has to be reviewed by human

beings and like anything, yeah.

Who, some of these things,
who in their right mind would

want to be exposed to this?

Who would want that job?

I'm glad

Leo Dion (host): There's a lot of money,

Peter Witham (guest): yeah.

Yeah, but this is definitely
something that a machine like you

say, won't burn out from doing.


Leo Dion (host): That would be a
good job for to have a severance surg

surgical procedure done on you, if

Peter Witham (guest): oh yeah.

Leo Dion (host): if you've watched that

Peter Witham (guest): No,

Leo Dion (host): yeah.

So there's some stuff about Ad network.

I didn't, I don't understand that
stuff, so I'm not gonna even jump into

Peter Witham (guest): Yeah.

It left me scratching my head.

Leo Dion (host): sounds interesting.

I'm really curious about that.

And I'm sure there's gonna
be some good stuff out from

Revenue Cap to talk about that.

Peter Witham (guest): good point.

Leo Dion (host): But
yeah, so there's that.

And then Xcode, I wanna cover Xcode
before I jump to one of the oss.

Xcode Swift Eye previews has
a macros now, which is funny.

This weekend I was working on like
swift Eye previews and like I wanted

to see my preview in Two or three
different iPhone models and it was like

I have to code this boiler play code
to do it and then I like refactor it

into a function and blah blah blah.

And I'm curious to see if this
makes it a lot easier because like

switch I previews, I get what it
is and it makes sense, but at the

same time I could see how it would
be a lot easier with a macro.

Also, if you look at the talk on
developer tools, you'll see that they

also mentioned UI kit and AppKit.

So I think previews is gonna be
a thing for UI kit and AppKit

Peter Witham (guest):
That would be nice.


Despite all the rumors, we still
have to support those things, folks.

Leo Dion (host): Yeah, we do.

Peter Witham (guest): yeah.

Leo Dion (host): What else
did you see with Xcode?

Peter Witham (guest): Yeah.

They gave some interesting examples with
the test reports with the full videos.

So you can literally replay
the experience of the test

along with the data in there.


That QA folks should be loving that.

One less thing for a third
party tool to take care of.

And it's all your reports are
right in there with your repo

code and everything else.

So that's interesting.

And of course, they touched on
Xcode Cloud, which I still have

Leo Dion (host): Remember it?

Peter Witham (guest): yet, yeah.

Remember it.

And I still have not used it.

And I was gonna ask you
how's that going for you?

Leo Dion (host): I don't, I like using
GitHub and GitLab CI and GitHub actions.

I don't want to have
to use another system.

I want, and I use Fastline.

And so far,

Peter Witham (guest): Fast Lane

Leo Dion (host): as they're
getting funded, God willing I'm

gonna be sticking with Fastline.

Like I, there's just so much I can
do and it's pluggable anywhere.

If I go to Xcode Cloud, I'm
stuck with Xcode Cloud yeah.

Peter Witham (guest): Yeah.

And that's my problem with some
of these things too, is it's not

that I have an issue with EXCO
Cloud, it's just that issue of

something that's gonna lock me in.

Not because I'm saying Apple's gonna
do bad things or anything like that,

but anytime you are locked into
something, One or two outcomes, you're

gonna be good for a really long time
and it then it's gonna bite you or

you're gonna be good for a short
term and then it's gonna bite you.

So keeping your options open, like
you said, like something like Fastly,

it really is one of those fast Lane
solved the problem, why is everybody

else still try it, but that said, I
still think Xcode Cloud plays into the

bigger picture of not Xcode on an iPad,
but offloading of the heavy duty so

that some other device can, make the

Leo Dion (host): You just
buy another Mac Mini.

That's what I did,

Peter Witham (guest): Yeah.


We were just talking about that.

Get yourself the bank
mini or the Mac Studio.

You got all the power you ever needed.

Leo Dion (host): Yeah.

Link speed and mergeable li I don't
know what Mergeable libraries is.

I'll figure

Peter Witham (guest): don't.

Leo Dion (host): out
this week, but I'm really

Peter Witham (guest): that was one

Leo Dion (host): what's
the selling point?


And then link speed
is five times faster.

Just, I just want
Until, what's it called?

Auto complete.

I just want that

Peter Witham (guest): Oh, in tele

Leo Dion (host): I don't
want any more swift.



I don't want any more of these weird
swift errors that don't make any sense.

I don't want swift errors
that are there, and then when

I click on it, it goes away.

Like just fix that Xcode.

That's we'll see.

I just download the beta.

We'll see if that's gonna happen.

Peter Witham (guest): I'll share a quick
story here of a funny example of that.

It happened to me on, I was doing a
live stream recently and it was with

a Sprite kit app and just out of the
blue, suddenly Xcode decided I can't,

I'm gonna give you an error that I can't
load the underlying Sprite kit module.

I was like, ah, what?

Did the usual thing
closed, Xcode opened it.


Still there.

And then someone in the stream said,
Hey change the order of your imports.

So I did.

And sure enough, the certain ones,
as soon as it was the first import,

like I think it was game kit or
something, it complained about it.

And now Swift Sprite kit was okay.

And then we put foundation
in, but foundation was okay.

Yes, thank you.

X code for another weird
errors that don't really exist.


Leo Dion (host): I
know, but I'm just like,

Peter Witham (guest): I know.

It drives you crazy.

I'm like, what?

Leo Dion (host): Andy do spray kit.

You said spray kit.

And I'm just like, oh no,
like now you're really Okay.

I gonna start cresting off stuff on our

Peter Witham (guest): Sure.

Leo Dion (host): just cuz I don't
want to make sure that we did cover

the important, the non-important,
the important, non-important stuff.

Before we get into my favorite os and
then we'll get into your favorite os ha.

Peter Witham (guest): All right.

Leo Dion (host): Okay, do that.

one thing I do wanna note is I noticed
that I mean I think I did mention

this in the previous sep, the previous
recording, but Xcode 15, you download

only Xcode 15, I think, and then you
have to download the separate SDKs.

Not only for watch and tv, but now
iOS as a separate install too, which

of course, 90% of 99% of people
who use X credit are doing iOS.

But in any case, that's the
way they make Xcode smaller.

So good for them.

Peter Witham (guest): I, I totally get
why you make watch OS TV os separate.

I'm glad you did that, apple.

Thank you for that.

But why make you know iOS separate?

Like you said, it's easily
gotta be the most used.

Why would you do that?

Leave it in there,

Leo Dion (host): maybe it's because,
so the other OS wasn't listed and I'm

wondering if Mac OS covers the new OS

Peter Witham (guest): Oh,


Leo Dion (host): oh if you're gonna
do, we want you to do the new OS and

then if you do the new os, I don't,

Peter Witham (guest): Thinking like
those ones are like the core, right?

We want you to have the core
and then maybe you are an iOS

developer or maybe you're, yeah.


That does make sense.

Leo Dion (host): Maybe
that's what it is.



My favorite OS finally is updated
after years and years of neglect.

Watch OS is here.

Watch o s 10.

There's a new way of doing watch faces.

Like the Siri face is now Preeminent
and like the way they're doing

like widgets and smart stacks
and stuff and changing the way.

So watch os zero whatever, watch os one.

Peter Witham (guest): Yeah.

Leo Dion (host): It was all
about glanceable, glance

this, glanceable that.

And so their idea is okay, glanceable,
you just can't get everything on there.

And I don't know why they're
this way, but I, they're not

comfortable with creating watch
faces that have a lot of data.

There's like a limit to the amount of
data that they're willing to put, which

I feel is not necessarily the case.

So they say, okay, there could
be a little bit of interactivity.

So basically you go to the Siri
face and then you flip using

the crown to see what the widget
smart stack decides is important.

And then that's why you can see your
calendar, your weather, whatever

other widgets you wanna show.

Stop that.

It was just about to do Siri.

So I think that's interesting.

Like I, I'm not sure, I'm definitely
gonna be installing the beta at some

point on my watch, watch or watches.

But that was really interesting.

What did you think?

Peter Witham (guest): Yeah, no I
thought this was interesting too.

You'd be forgiven if you was, pardon
the phrase, an average user thinking

like, oh, okay, they gave me some new
watch faces and that was about it.

But no, that's not the case at all.

Yes, you got some new watch faces.

That's a given, that's every
year knowing that they're

gonna improve the camera.

In the iPhone it's a given.

You're gonna get watch faces, but the.

Leo Dion (host): Snoopy
is not a shock, right?

It's all, they're always
as a snoopy watch face.

Peter Witham (guest): Yeah.

And I think I might use that one.


Because they targeted me.

They're like, oh, this
is for the old people.

I was like, oh, wait,
you're talking to me now?

Yeah, but, the widget part of it, I
think is a bigger deal than perhaps

a lot of people are thinking it is
on the surface, because really on the

watch, at least the way I use it the
widgets is a massive part of my day.

I don't use, quote apps a lot
in Soma as it's an information

screen and so therefore Exactly.

Widgets and being handled to interact
quickly with those widgets for me

just made my watch a lot more useful,

Leo Dion (host): we didn't talk about
this total tangent, but the standby

mode on the iPhone is that, it's
like big widget on the screen that

just shows like whatever you like,
information dump, like you said.

Peter Witham (guest): Yeah, I, and I'm
real happy about that, that actually

for me was one of the big sort of
silent features, because I do that

with my watch all the time at night.

If I'm not wearing it, I take
it off, put it on its side.


There it is.

It's my alarm.

It's got the clock and everything
else, plus the always on screen.

Just to touch on it with the phone.


Why not make my phone a mini dashboard
on my desktop or my bedside cabinet.

Perfect use case, but yeah, no,
on the watch, the widgets and the

interactive widgets to me is great.

I think I just found the new
justification for keeping

this thing on my wrist,

Leo Dion (host): yeah, big
enhancements, the cycling there's

a whole custom workout api.

I don't know what that
means, but I'm curious.

You've used health kit for workouts.

What does workout kit?

I don't know.

I'm really curious about that.

Hiking, there's some features that I
don't know where if there were, like,

I don't even know if some of this stuff
is exclusive to the Ultra, but there

were some stuff with like tracking,
cell reception and if you, cuz so

I've, I have one watch that has LTE but
doesn't have a cell phone plan on it.

And technically on that I could just do
an SOS call on any solve network work.

Fyi, if you have an iPhone, it's
your legal I think it's the legal

obligation that like you can at least
call 9 1 1 on it even if you don't

have a cell phone plan and you don't
have a sim card or EIM card in it.

So that would be the same idea with
this is it'll tell you if you have

cell reception period even if you
don't have a SIM attached to it.

And then that way you'll know,

Peter Witham (guest): Yeah.


Leo Dion (host): call 9 1
1 essentially here in the

Peter Witham (guest): and it had,

Leo Dion (host): your
emergency number is.

Peter Witham (guest): it also
was interesting that it, I think

it would be useful for these
folks that sort of pseudo 3D view

where not only am I getting the
direction, I'm getting a sort of

high estimate relative to where I am.


I actually think that that
is gonna be very useful.

Now, you do touch on an interesting
thing there, though, as far as I recall,

not once did they say, this is the,
which version of the watch this is for.


wonder if it's okay, take
them with their word.

Does that mean I get this
on all of the watches?

And then maybe later

Leo Dion (host): because the co,

Peter Witham (guest): watch hardware,
you tell me about some special thing,

Leo Dion (host): well cuz the Compass
is like a Al is an ultra only thing

I thought, but I'm not, I don't know.

Like they didn't say that.

So I don't know.

We'll find out,

Peter Witham (guest): no, I got
a compass on my one, I think.

But it might not be the
same kind of compass.

Yeah, no.

I got a compass but maybe it can't
do all of that functionality.


Leo Dion (host): I'm just
looking at this real quick.

Da Smart stack.

There's that pallet, there's
Snoopy Cycling, hiking with

Watch Compass app on it, LA.

It doesn't say only, it just
sh in the marketing material.

It only shows the ultra,
but it doesn't yeah.

Peter Witham (guest): We may have to

Leo Dion (host): all the market,
on all the marketing material,

it's only showing well, for
the cycling and the hiking.

It only shows the ultra interesting.


Peter Witham (guest): Maybe that's
one of those subliminal things of you

should buy the ultra if that's what

Leo Dion (host): right exactly.

Mental health the jour, was it the,
was that the journaling thing or

Peter Witham (guest): They,
yeah, they bundled the, that

in with the journaling there.

And I, it's one of those things
as someone who does journal, but

does it, I think I mentioned in
our previous discussion, I do it

with pen and paper just because
it forces me to slow down, be, and

also because I type all day, right?

So it won't feel as special to me
if I'm just typing a journal thing.

It's just another document.

I do think it is interesting,
and I always appreciate any of

these companies, but especially
Apple, anytime they do more,

introducing new health related.

Issues and data and things like that.

And so having the mental health
one in there you, as I'd mentioned

before, I'm still waiting for the the
A1C check, but one day, but anytime

they add these things here I gotta
do j just say thank you, well done.

Because as we all know, life
is complicated these days and

anything that may help you, great.

Leo Dion (host): It is.

So like you can log your mood
essentially, and then they try to

look at your mood and associate,
whether sleep or exercise is, has an

effect on your anxiety and depression.

So that's the point in that there's a

Peter Witham (guest): Yeah.

And I think that's good.


Leo Dion (host): And
about getting daylight.

Oh, just looking at the list on
the press release, I'll find maps.

Oh, that's only on iPhone.

Custom workouts, we talked about that.

Lastly I want to go back.

Swift D y Swift ui.

We got.

Vertical tab views and the toolbar
and navigation split view, which

originally was for the iPad and the Mac.

Now we have that on the
watch, which is really cool.

I think they showed some real I could
see the whole vertical scroll thing.

Like they definitely push that
and we're like, this is the

new paradigm on the watch.

Peter Witham (guest): Yep.

Leo Dion (host): yeah, I'm excited.

No independent watch that was
not, they never talked about that.

That was one of the rumors.

So we're not quite there yet,

Peter Witham (guest): But I also think
that is still one of those things

where and I get it, it's just not
in their best interest to do that.

Like we all said from

Leo Dion (host): Or they're just
gonna wait until the September

event when they reveal the

Peter Witham (guest): yeah.



Leo Dion (host): the new watch hardware
and be like, oh yeah, you now only

in the series nine will we support.


Yeah, even though it's a software thing
so yeah, I wouldn't be surprised about

Peter Witham (guest): Yeah.

And we didn't mention it, but
we should mention the, while we

were talking about the health the
health app is on the iPad now.


Leo Dion (host): that's right.

Which I think is really cool.

Peter Witham (guest): Yeah, I do too.

So for those it's like my
health dashboard right there.


Leo Dion (host): I don't, did
you know that Ventura was the

first os Macco first version of
Mac os to support health kit?

Peter Witham (guest): I did not, no.

Leo Dion (host): yeah.


Peter Witham (guest):
feels like it's been

Leo Dion (host): the health,

Yeah, no health kit was never
on Mac Os now it's on iPad.

So now it's on, it was
on Mac OS with Ventura.

Now it looks like they're moving
that over to the iPad, which is

Peter Witham (guest): Great.


Leo Dion (host): Alright, do it.

Peter Witham (guest): So
there was one other thing.


Leo Dion (host): let's
talk about the new.

Newton let's talk about the
new $3,500 pair of glasses.

Peter Witham (guest): Starting at 3,500

Leo Dion (host): What does that mean?

Starting out?

What would you even

Peter Witham (guest): That, there's

Leo Dion (host): oh, I want a M two.

I'm about M two Pro.

Yeah, Stuart.


But see, I think it's more
they did say it's modular.


They did say it's
modular, so there you go.

Oh, this pan is not comfortable enough.

Or, oh, can I get the
glasses and golds, whatever.



Fair enough.

I see that now.


What's your fir just
first impressions go.

Peter Witham (guest): First impressions?


No, thank you.

Because it's too creepy looking when if
someone walks to me with a headset on

like that, with that facial expression
coming through the panel, I'm gonna

feel like I'm in like an episode
of The Walking Dead or something.

It's too creepy.

Leo Dion (host): I think
you'd get used to it.

I think you'd get used to it.

Peter Witham (guest): So here's

Leo Dion (host): It's not for me.

I'm not disagreeing.

Peter Witham (guest): yeah.

No, oh, absolutely.


Leo Dion (host): you'd get used to it.

I don't think it's that big of a deal.

Peter Witham (guest): H
here's my second take on it.

Which is very closely
linked with the first one.

And I think I tweeted this immediately
when they showed it and they showed the

how your face looks through the thing.

I felt like I was looking at Either,
either a, an early generation or a

next generation of someone that I
would expect to find walking around

in Blade Runner movies or cyber
punk because it just felt like that.

And immediately I felt
is this the future?

Is it really?

Leo Dion (host): I'm
gonna be devil's advocate.

I agree.

It's not for me.

We'll get into the why that is,
but I'm maybe devil's advocate.

So the thing with the glasses, I
think is a technology limitation

that Apple has tried its best
to overcome an Apple way.

And I mean that as a compliment.

Google glasses just don't work.

They're not that good.

Apple says, fine, this is
just, this is a limitation.

We're gonna allow you to see
the eyes through this display.

Think of it like the notch.

It's a notch.

Not even, no, not a notch.

It's a dynamic island.


It's we have this issue,

Peter Witham (guest):
Oh, I see what you did.

Dynamic Island.

Well done.

Leo Dion (host): I, I
didn't mean to do that.

But it's a, it is, it's like
apple's okay, this isn't what.


We're just going to do, we're gonna
work with it instead of against it.

And I think that's what they've done
here, and I applaud them for that.

I will say the fa the, what is it?

Persona, what is it called?


Peter Witham (guest): Yeah.


Yeah, spacial.

Leo Dion (host): Pre persona, I
think is that, I think is gonna

be it's better than the Facebook
avatar on the Oculus, I'll say that.


But yeah, it's still creepy.

Watch my episode

Peter Witham (guest): Yeah,

Leo Dion (host): talk to chat G P t,
if you want to get an idea how I think

Peter Witham (guest): I
think I saw some of that.





Leo Dion (host): where I think
it is just and for me, I don't.

I don't want, so let me get the
good stuff outta the way cuz

that's just the easiest part.

I, this is classic Apple taking
a totally different take on

a device class, platform,
whatever you wanna call it.

They don't like black Blackberry.

Blackberry had its thing.

Blackberry was very successful,
but the iPhone totally went

in a different direction.

It didn't have a keyboard on it,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

It had a multi-touch, oculus, whatever
the 500 other VR companies that

we've had, they're like, it's all
immersive, it's all 3d, it's weird.

And buggy and I don't know buggy,
but just it's a totally different

take this, like they've, they
don't have a keyboard, right?

They've taken out the Blackberry
keyboard of what the Oculus does

and said, no, we're just gonna be
like, it's going to, we're just gonna

put a UI in three, in a 3D space.

That's essentially what they've done.

They've taken a totally different
angle and a classic apple, and

I think it looks really cool.

So you have like windows,
you have your web browser.

You have it's we're not like
gonna make everything 3d.

We're not gonna put you in an N F T
forest in the middle of Whatever crap.

It's no, you're still in your
space and we have this clever

little digital crown, like a volume
where you could say how immersive

you want to be in that space.

It's very clever.

I think it's great.

I think it's great from a
developer perspective that pretty

much every iOS app and I think
back at maybe can be moved over.

I think that, I think they make an
interesting selling point with hey,

you spend thousands of dollars on a
home theater when you could just buy

these glasses for only thir 3,500.

Just I know, but this is what
they said, and I think that's as

good of a point as you can make.

They have a new.

The all that work on tracking your
eye, li your eyes and your motion, the

interface looks immersive and intuitive.

All the stuff with spatial audio that
we've been seeing them do it feels

like it's been the end result of all
this work that they've been doing with

ML that we've all known oh, checking
your motion and things like that.

They have even have lenses
for folks like us who are

blind spaces, absence spaces.

But having said all that, like I don't.

don't want it.

I don't want to have a pair
of glasses on my face all day.

And I, like I, and I don't
want to put 'em on, take 'em

off, put 'em on, take 'em off.

I don't want I'd rather wa when I'm
watching a movie with someone, I

wanna watch a movie with someone.

I don't want us to help both
have a pair of glasses on.

I wanna be there together
for real, not like virtually.

Peter Witham (guest): Yep.

Leo Dion (host): there that's my spiel.

It's yeah, just, I don't,
I still don't get it.

Peter Witham (guest): yeah, let me dive
more into my, no, because I agree with

an awful lot of what you said and so
I wanna put my No in context, right?

First of all let's talk.

Let's talk about the hardware.

It is, like you said, the absolute
pinnacle of of what Apple's been

working towards with all of its
different products, all of its research

both user research, engineering
research and everything else.

There is no question in my mind this
is an absolute shining example of

the pinnacle excellence of what Apple
can do at a hardware level, right?

Absolutely not.

No question in my mind that I
absolutely get why it's got the price

tag it's got, because the amount of.

Cleverness in that headset.

Oh my gosh.

Can't even imagine how you got, how
did you get all of that in there?

So that at a hardware level, yes.

This is the shining example of Apple
being Apple in the best possible way.

Price tag, it's always gonna be
an Apple price tag, we knew that,

it was never gonna be a surprise.

But I do think you, you're getting
a lot of value for your money Now,

software wise, I, it's difficult
to know without actually using it

because they were very careful to
show us a lot of simulated imagery

of, this is what it's gonna look like.


But you haven't actually shown me
what it looks like, but I'm gonna

assume it's gonna be at least
very close to what you showed me.

Which is great, the pinching like
your fingers, so I guess we're all

gonna be doing crab impressions
once we've got one of these things.

I guess that's what we'll be calling it.

Do the apple crab.

I should trademark that right now.

That's gonna work great, I think until
you put it in a real world scenario

with pets and kids running around
in the room in front of you, and

then I think it's gonna have a hell
of a time trying to figure it out.

I hope I'm wrong, but the, I think
for me, the key reason for the

no is I just feel this was making
the absolute perfection answer to

a question that was never asked.

And that's where I
feel with it, because.

Up until now, I think it's, would be
fair to say vr, ar, headsets, whatever,

are primarily for gaming, right?

Because they're perfect for that.

Three and a half thousand
dollars gaming headset.

I don't think so, but I could see other
uses like I was proposing to someone

the other day perfect for medical.

Something like that.

But I still feel this is one of those,
like I say, an absolute perfection of an

answer to a question that nobody asked.

And I feel, that's why I'm saying
no, is you may be a few years ahead

of yourself, apple, one day this
will be great, but right now I'm

scratching my head as to, the people
that are gonna buy this are gonna be

the people that bought the solid gold
apple watches to say they've got one.

Leo Dion (host): I think,
I, or app developers

Peter Witham (guest): Yeah.

Don't get me wrong.

If someone wants to buy me
one, I'll use that darn thing,

Leo Dion (host): like I've been
a I've told people like if Apple

offered a developer kit where I
could borrow it for a few months and

build an app and return it and get
a nice little What do you call it?

Like a little ch like
a gift card from it?

I'd do that.

I have ideas to do that, but I'm
not like it's gen one, especially.

I would definitely not buy this.

Like it's, yeah.

Peter Witham (guest): But see, that's

Leo Dion (host): I wanna see it.

I wanna see it in the Apple store.

I wanna see like, how good is
the resolution on this thing?

Is it really look that good?

If I put this on, will it look
like I am looking through a piece

of glass or will it look like I'm
looking at a video that's okay.

Resolution, but not really

Peter Witham (guest): Yeah.

Will I be able to tell that I'm
quote, seeing reality or not?

Because if I'm not, I could
buy an awful lot of Nintendo

switches for the same price.

And have a lot more fun
with those probably.

But I think you touched on something
there because I neglected to look at

it from the perspective of a developer
when I was gonna say of course as

developers, it's in our best interest
to make something for this platform

because there'll be enough people
buy one that, early days of the app

store, if you can get yours out early,
doesn't matter what it is you're in,

Leo Dion (host): yeah, as an Apple Watch
app, as an Apple Watch app developer,

I disagree with that statement
because we've all been burnt on it.

Or t ask your average
Apple TV app developer

Peter Witham (guest): sure.



That's actually a better example.


Leo Dion (host): yeah, not every
platform is gonna be like, I think

for this, I think most of the built-in
apps are gonna cover what people

need, and then anything else is just
gonna be migrated over, like Disney

plus for instance, or whatever else.

They wanna showcase and look at
the end of the day, it's just it's

almost an Apple TV replacement

It is

Peter Witham (guest): Yep.

Leo Dion (host): Because
yeah, and I don't understand

the whole Mac thing too.

Like I'm really curious about that.

Like how does it work with the Mac?

Cuz you have the external monitor and
like I, it's, I have a lot of questions

cuz there's a lot of technology that
has to work perfectly all the time.

And if you're using the iPhone without
internet reception or cell reception

or you le there's this weird quirks
like, oh, like touch ID when after

you get your hands wet or anything.

There's all these little quirks where
if something goes wrong it's just not

gonna work out to be a great experience.

Peter Witham (guest): Yep.


Leo Dion (host): feel like the three,

Peter Witham (guest): right?

Leo Dion (host): yeah.

Peter Witham (guest):
Because you're right.

Leo Dion (host): I'm sur I'm surprised
they didn't make the battery pack into

a fashion accessory or This battery pack

also has the capability of doing MagSafe
charging and like I'm surprised they

didn't go that route, or they didn't
even mention the battery pack, yeah.

Peter Witham (guest): because

Leo Dion (host): by
u s BBC or Lightning?

I don't know.

Peter Witham (guest): exactly.

That was something else that came to
mind, because I can see, as you were

describing it just now, the use cases,
I'm thinking, okay, if I use it as an

external screen, And I'm halfway through
my day and the battery goes flat, or I'm

sitting there watching a movie halfway
through a Lord of the Rings movie.

Good luck if the
battery lasts that long.

And he goes flat.

Sorry kids, we gotta stop
watching the movie now until we

charge these things up again.


Leo Dion (host): can you plug
can the battery be plugged in?

If you're sitting at the couch and you

Peter Witham (guest): I'm
wondering the same thing.

Leo Dion (host): Can,
do they allow that?

Yeah, there's a lot.

There's just a lot of like


Peter Witham (guest): of questions.

Leo Dion (host): And it's not a
challenge to Apple is like, how

do you explain to people what
the experience of this is like

in a video, let an own line of

Peter Witham (guest): I don't

Leo Dion (host): I need to
be at the Apple store to

actually look at this thing.

Peter Witham (guest): Yeah.

That, see, okay, so that's
the other question, right?

I guess I gotta go there.

Not to scare people, but yeah, we should
all go to an Apple store and try one.

But don't be thinking too much about
the hundreds of people that tried the

headset before you put it on your face.

Just something to think about.

Leo Dion (host): Yeah, that's true.

Peter Witham (guest): But that's
why I say, that's why I'm saying

no is I think it's a solution to a
problem we don't have at this time,

Leo Dion (host): and the technology
is not we'll see, but the

technology might not even be there.

Peter Witham (guest): Yeah.

We are basing this on,

Leo Dion (host): we're potentially
looking at an Apple Watch SE series zero

Peter Witham (guest): exactly.

That is what I, the comparison I
drew earlier was, yeah, the first

Apple Watch seemed great until you
tried to use it for a day, and then

it's like, why have I got this?

Leo Dion (host): What was
the first iPhone you got?

Peter Witham (guest):
was the 3g the 3G version

Leo Dion (host): like the
third, that's the third version

Peter Witham (guest): I
think it was the third one.

Actually it, so it was the one,
wait, I've got it right here.

Let's have a look.

Hang on.

Leo Dion (host): Question.

I'm a, the reason I'm asking that is

Peter Witham (guest): Yeah.

Leo Dion (host): I think
with the iPhone it took a few

versions before it got popular.

Like very few.

I don't think a lot of people
bought the iPhone I, me, it was

iPhone four or, yeah, it was
iPhone four was my first iPhone

Peter Witham (guest): it's
that one with the curved.



Leo Dion (host): So I think with a
lot of folks, like this first version

is not gonna be ready for primetime,
quite frankly, and Apple, apple has

time to, to work on this and figure out
what the space for this is, like the

Apple watch.

So I'm not saying, I'm
not saying it's a failure.

I'm not saying it's a
failure by any means.


Peter Witham (guest): oh, it won't be,

Leo Dion (host): It won't.

No, it won't be

Peter Witham (guest): it'll be hugely
successful cause PE people just buy

Apple products without question.

Let's be honest.

If you break it down, if you think
about it, it's only really the

equivalent of buying three iPhones,
suddenly it doesn't sound so expensive

when you think about it that way, but
like you said in my notes here, it's

not available to early next year.

So who knows what could happen to
it between now and then, right?

Leo Dion (host): So I'm
gonna go over the API stuff.

We got this idea of Windows volumes
and spaces for putting 3D stuff in.

Right out of the box iOS apps
are supported and Swift ui and

you could do a lot more with Zac.

Zac is the Swift UI equivalent of
the Z level, I guess so to speak

Peter Witham (guest): Yeah.

And that has bitten me.

Yeah, that has bitten me
a few times with Zack.

So I'm glad that they got a tweak.


Leo Dion (host): do you
do anything with Unity?


Peter Witham (guest): the other
thing I absolutely wanted to mention.


I do for those who keep up with my
staff, I have a Unity game that I've

been working on for a long time.

Sit out there in beta.

But yes I do stuff with Unity
and it was last year, IEV 360.

There was a course there was a video,
I forget the gentleman's name about

using Unity with thrift, which was
like, great, cuz all I ever want to do

is have Swift in unity and I'm happy.

So I was really happy to see that
Apple continues to embrace unity.

I will say I can't help myself.


I'm sure some of it's to get
it Epic and the Unreal Engine.

Of course,

Leo Dion (host): You think?

You think so?

You think so?

Peter Witham (guest):
It's gotta be, it's Apple,

Leo Dion (host): What's the, I?

No, I'm kidding.

What's the market?

What's the market share
between Unity and Unreal?

Do you know?

Peter Witham (guest): I, based on my
non-scientific folks that I know in

that Unity is definitely a lot more
popular with the indie devs, right?

Even though it's not to tech
technically not totally free, like

Unreal engineers until you get over
whatever it is, a million dollars.

But it's a lot more, it's easier
to get into, so the fact, yeah, the

fact that, they essentially said
let me check my note here, that

Unity sits on top of the reality.


The reality kit.

Unity can sit on top of that is
a massive deal for Unity, right?

That is essentially the official
seal of a, of endorsement

from Apple saying, use Unity,

Leo Dion (host): Yeah.

Peter Witham (guest): Great.

That, that makes me nothing but happy.

Leo Dion (host): Are you gonna be doing
any tutorials on this stuff and Unity?

Peter Witham (guest): I think I'm
gonna have to at this point, right?

I'm actually learning on Real
Engine because I just want to, but

I am still building, with Unity.

And clearly I have every good reason
now to embrace, cuz the u the VR

and AR in Unity is really good.

Now there's a reason to go
back and look at it again.

Leo Dion (host): Yeah I asked him, had
a really good talk and he was on the

show talking about reality Composer.

I played around with it.

It's a really easy to use.

and I did, what is it not 3D
Studio Max, I did 20 years ago.

Peter Witham (guest): yeah, me too.

Leo Dion (host): I know a little
bit about 3D stuff, but not a lot.

But I'm really curious
about this stuff here

Peter Witham (guest): Yeah.

And I

was just relearning.

Leo Dion (host): there's a lot of
amazing stuff you can do in Reality

Kit that you're like, oh, I gotta
Nope, it does it all for you.

Like typical Apple, so anchoring
things to walls and stuff like that.

So yeah,

Peter Witham (guest): Yeah.


Leo Dion (host): as
intimidating as you think it is.

So definitely take a look at that.

Peter Witham (guest): So combine
that with Unity and I was gonna

say I've recently started Learning
Blender because I was a 3D Studio

Max guy, and I was like, why
have I never learned Blender?

And I've done a couple of basic things,
but again, all of this is yeah, okay.

3D models in any kind of vr, ar even
with my phone, I added some ideas

I wanted to make some AR stuff.

And so I was like, I
should learn Blender again.

So that plus Unity sitting on top of,
reality kit and that I'm all for it,

Leo Dion (host): are you, do you
say you have an Nintendo Switch?

Peter Witham (guest): I do
have an Nintendo switch.

And there's no reason in the
world that I've not thought

about publishing my game to it.

I should.


Leo Dion (host): I don't want to
make this too much of an episode, but

have you played tears of the kingdom?

Peter Witham (guest): I haven't.


You like

Leo Dion (host): Okay.

Yeah, it's awesome.

Peter Witham (guest): Okay.

That's good enough.

Leo Dion (host): be ge I'll be
geeking about it in a future

episode when Adrian is on.


Peter Witham (guest): Yeah.

Leo Dion (host): you
like breath of the wild?

Peter Witham (guest): Yeah.

Did I sound excited?

Leo Dion (host): the kingdom,

Peter Witham (guest): Yeah.

Leo Dion (host): then you'll

Peter Witham (guest): That's what
a, I've not found anyone yet that's

gone oh no, that was, that sucks.

Yeah, that's why I haven't got it.

Cause if I get it, That's gonna be it.

No more streams from me except that.

Leo Dion (host): no,
there'll be streams.

It's just be streams of
you play in the game.

Peter Witham (guest): Exactly.


Not making my game as people tell
me you should be making your game,

Leo Dion (host): what do you think?

Okay, I wanna, was there anything
else you wanna talk about?

Peter Witham (guest): No I think, yeah.

I think we covered all of the major,

Leo Dion (host): what do you think
of the 2D on 3d like interface

like, To me, like that's, I
think that's a really interesting

take on VR or AR or whatever.

Not su not surprising in some ways, but

Peter Witham (guest): I
think it's a good idea.

Leo Dion (host): it's, yeah.

Golf clap, apple, like dynamic island.

This I think there, it's a very
good, interesting take on UI

and that's why Apple is Apple.

So I like that.

I think that's cool.

Peter Witham (guest): And
I also, I think it's very

comfortable for people, right?

We're used to a 2D in a interaction
with our machines and to do to put you

in 3D with, that keeps me comfortable.

No weird

Leo Dion (host): we've

Peter Witham (guest): to adapt to.

Leo Dion (host): human beings
are like evolution, whatever

we do 2d, much easier, period.

We've always done 2d.

It like, so like we have whiteboards,
we have paper, we have The idea that

like, 3D is like a great way to do stuff
all the time is not necessarily true.

And so I think like Apple
sees that and is okay, yeah.

Like it makes sense to have a
web browser be flat on a screen

and you scroll up with your
finger and stuff like that.

It makes sense.

And then they have 3D stuff in
iOS, like 3D effects, but they've

made that a little bit more
actual 3d cuz we have two eyeballs

instead of, just a flat screen.

Peter Witham (guest): Yeah.

Leo Dion (host): So it'll be interesting
to see their evolution on that.

Peter Witham (guest): No I agree.

And I think the other thing
with 2d, especially with this,

the vision pro, and that is
you can do 2D anywhere, right?

There's nothing distracting about it.

It doesn't, the fact that I've got
a, I'm seeing a 3D environment in the

background, my brain just automatically
filters that out to the 2d.

So I, I think that doing it,
choosing to do it the way

they're doing it, is brilliant.

I can't think of a better way to
onboard someone than to take the

familiar and put it in the unfamiliar
and say, just don't worry about it.


Leo Dion (host): next year.

Peter Witham (guest): Yeah.

Leo Dion (host): Next year.

So leg kit.

We're gonna get leg kit where we
can put legs on spatial personas.

Peter Witham (guest): That's it.

That's what we need.

Leo Dion (host): And swift UI
charts with like 3D topographic

curves or something, so

Peter Witham (guest): wouldn't that be?



Leo Dion (host): up
with that swift package.

Peter Witham (guest): yeah let's,
what they want us to do is all

of, they want all of us to forget.

Was it last year or
the year before that?


No, it was on stage.

So it was a couple years ago
that really awkward demonstration

with the 3D city, with the
spacecraft coming over the table.

They want us to all just forget that
version of 3D ar that never happened.

Leo Dion (host): They do
real, they've done, say what

you will about the pandemic.

We're Apple's been a lot
better at doing game demos, so

that's been

Peter Witham (guest): Yeah.

I think they learned a lot.


Leo Dion (host): Yeah.


Peter, is there anything else?

Peter Witham (guest): No

Leo Dion (host): of me bookmarking

Peter Witham (guest): I hear


Leo Dion (host): tomorrow,

Peter Witham (guest): Yeah, no,
that's un until we get to go through

our sessions now, I think that's one
of those whew, we survived day one.

Leo Dion (host): yes.


Yeah, that's a big one, like we said
in that episode, two episodes ago.

Take your time, guys, gals be picky
about what you're gonna watch.

These videos are gonna
be out there for a while.

I'm gonna be, are you gonna be
streaming any of this stuff?

Peter Witham (guest): I think I
will, I think what I'm gonna do is

download, do like you did, download
Xcode make sure I can run it, and

then if I can run it, see if some of
the new stuff is available, and then

I'll probably live stream playing
around with some of that stuff.

Some of my fellow live streamers
that we have on our Discord, I

have no doubt they will, because
they are just amazing folks.

I'm confident that if anyone's
interested, go out there looking,

you're gonna find a ton of people
playing with this stuff, and as we

Leo Dion (host): already video
tutorials posted on swift data.

Peter Witham (guest): Yeah.

Leo Dion (host): I'm not that quick.

Sorry folks.

Peter Witham (guest): Yeah, me too.

I was like, no, I'm just
barely catching up on my notes.

But worst case, we will go out there and
totally destroy our machines by breaking

all these things so you don't have to.

Leo Dion (host): Enough.

And now following your
advice on backing up.

Peter Witham (guest): Yeah.

Oh yeah.

Don't bother with that.

Don't listen to that guy.


Leo Dion (host): so people could
follow Peter on his YouTube channel.

What's the name?

Is it Compile Swift or Peter?

Peter Witham (guest): No,
it's Peter Whitham, actually.

Just YouTube slash Peter Whitham.

And then with, for
everything else, yeah.

Leo Dion (host): yep.

And then I'm here on
YouTube at Bright Digit.

So if you are listening to this,
you can go to YouTube slash

youtube.com/bright digit to catch
any stuff I'm be posting this week.

I have a ton of recordings next week.

We'll be talking with Pedro Panera Tu.

We're gonna be talking
about build tools.

Hiday the great designer Hiday
Vanderplug is gonna be on.

We're gonna talk about watch o s 10.

Adrian Eaves is gonna come on
and we'll probably talk about

how to implement ultra hand with.

Vision that's a, this azel forever.


We'll see.

We'll talk about
something about this year.

And maybe I'll might get some
surprise guests on to talk about

reality kit ar, kit vision,
something like that this summer.

So I have a busy summer ahead of me.

Thank you Peter for coming on.

I really appreciate it.

Peter Witham (guest): pleasure.

As always, Leo you and I, we could
sit here for days talking about

this stuff again, thank you for
having me come back yet again.

Always a pleasure.

Thank you.

Leo Dion (host): Peter with them
at YouTube, a Andal Swift Twitter.

People can if you watching
this on YouTube, please and

subscribe, share this with folks.

I'll be and then if you're
listening to us on Podcast Player,

please give me a good review and
share it with others as well.

I look forward to talking to you.

Hopefully I'll have another
episode out next week.

We'll see.

Everybody enjoy your day.

Take it easy.

Enjoy WWDC week.

Talk to you later.

Bye everybody.