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We’re Jason and Caroline Zook, a husband and wife team running two businesses together and trying to live out our version of a good life in the process. In this business podcast, we share with you our lessons learned about how to run a calm, sustainable business—one that is predictable, profitable AND peaceful. Join us every Thursday if you’re an online creator who wants to reach your goals without sacrificing your well-being in the process.
[00:00:00] Caroline: Welcome to Growing Steady, the show where we help online creators like you build a calm business, one that's predictable, profitable, and peaceful. We are your hosts, Jason and Caroline Zook, and we run Wandering Aimfully, an Un-boring Business Coaching Program, and Teachery, an online course platform for designers. Join us each week as we help you reach your business goals without sacrificing your well-being in the process. Slow and steady is the way we do things around here, baby.
[00:00:29] Jason: All right, cinnamon rollers, that's you. Let's get into the show.
[00:00:37] Caroline: Hi.
[00:00:38] Jason: Hello and welcome to the podcast. What a range, huh? This is a fun episode.
[00:00:46] Caroline: Well, first of all, tell everyone...
[00:00:48] Jason: It's a fun episode.
[00:00:48] Caroline: ...happy American Thanksgiving.
[00:00:48] Jason: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:00:49] Caroline: Because they're listening to this, as this episode goes live, it's American Thanksgiving.
[00:00:53] Jason: It is, for sure. This is going to be a fun episode. I believe we've had a fun episode or two before.
[00:00:59] Caroline: A fun episode. Right.
[00:00:59] Jason: Listen, this time of the year, not a lot of focus on business or getting things done. It's a lot of focus on how much can I fit on this plate that's 100% free calories. Because as we all know, Thanksgiving, calorie free day.
[00:01:12] Caroline: Yes. Now, this is not like a science bro podcast, but I can confirm to you...
[00:01:16] Jason: Yes.
[00:01:16] Caroline: ...that scientifically, food does not count on Thanksgiving.
[00:01:19] Jason: Yeah.
[00:01:20] Caroline: And so, that's good news for everyone.
[00:01:21] Jason: It's really, it's magical. So we're going to do two things today.
[00:01:25] Caroline: Yeah.
[00:01:25] Jason: We are going to do a Thanksgiving draft of items that you can choose for your Thanksgiving plate. We're going to do it, for those of you who don't know what a draft really is, we're going to go back and forth. Snake draft is what this is called, so we'll go one-on-one, one-on-one, one-on-one. To pick five items. There's no reason...
[00:01:44] Caroline: My eyes start glazing over when you talk about fantasy football.
[00:01:46] Jason: It's not fantasy football. Just set a draft.
[00:01:48] Caroline: You said a snake draft. And it's...
[00:01:49] Jason: I understand, but it doesn't have to be fancy football related.
[00:01:52] Caroline: Okay.
[00:01:52] Jason: So we're going to do that. And then we are also going to do marketing tactics. If we were to start a brand-new business in 2025...
[00:02:01] Caroline: Brand new business.
[00:02:01] Jason: ...what would we do?
[00:02:01] Caroline: What would we do?
[00:02:02] Jason: What are the things? And we'll pick those, but I'm not going to say any because I don't want to do it.
[00:02:07] Caroline: Okay.
[00:02:07] Jason: And we both have lists.
[00:02:08] Caroline: And we get to give our reasoning.
[00:02:09] Jason: And yeah, we'll give a little bit of reasoning.
[00:02:10] Caroline: Okay.
[00:02:11] Jason: So do that. So we're going to have our dessert first.
[00:02:14] Caroline: Okay.
[00:02:14] Jason: So we're going to do the Thanksgiving stuff and then we'll have our vegetables at the end.
[00:02:17] Caroline: Okay.
[00:02:17] Jason: So we're going to have the more enjoyable fun. I don't know, is it more fun for you to do the Thanksgiving dishes or the business dishes?
[00:02:23] Caroline: Business dishes.
[00:02:24] Jason: Oh, it's more fun for me to do the Thanksgiving dishes.
[00:02:25] Caroline: Oh, okay. Cute.
[00:02:26] Jason: That's kind of where we are in life right now.
[00:02:27] Caroline: Yeah.
[00:02:28] Jason: Oh, I did want to give one...
[00:02:29] Caroline: Go ahead.
[00:02:30] Jason: ...quick shout out.
[00:02:31] Caroline: Give a shout out, babe.
[00:02:32] Jason: Okay. This is really only to our friends in Europe.
[00:02:34] Caroline: Okay.
[00:02:35] Jason: Because for US, I think you probably could order it, but the shipping would be very expensive, and we don't love to recommend things you have to ship across continents or across water.
[00:02:43] Caroline: I don't even know what you're going to recommend right now.
[00:02:44] Jason: I found... Actually, here's the thing. You can find plenty of these in the US.
[00:02:49] Caroline: Oh, for sure.
[00:02:50] Jason: Coffee Advent calendar.
[00:02:51] Caroline: I knew what you were going to say.
[00:02:52] Jason: Yeah. So I actually first time ever had a coffee Advent calendar last year and there was a company in Portugal that did 25 different small bags of coffee from different roasters in Portugal. And it was awesome. I love supporting them. They were not doing it again this year. There was one coffee roaster that I loved, but they literally only had the capacity to make 40 of them.
[00:03:12] Caroline: Yup.
[00:03:13] Jason: And I didn't see it for like three days in my Instagram.
[00:03:15] Caroline: You weren't one of the 40.
[00:03:15] Jason: And so couldn't buy it. But then I went on a little hunt, and I was like, okay, there's got to be other coffee Advent calendars. This is going to be a thing. And what I found was there's a ton in the US. So if you're in the US, I would definitely recommend checking out Onyx, O-N-Y-X.
[00:03:27] Caroline: Mm-hmm.
[00:03:27] Jason: They're an incredible coffee roaster. They make amazing coffee. Definitely check out their Advent calendars. I'm sure they have enough because they're a big coffee company. If you are in Europe, I ordered from a German coffee company called 19grams.
[00:03:40] Caroline: Mm-hmm.
[00:03:40] Jason: And it is beautiful, the Advent calendar.
[00:03:43] Caroline: Oh, my gosh.
[00:03:44] Jason: The artwork on it.
[00:03:45] Caroline: Yeah, it's giving very... It's actually very Wandering Aimfully because...
[00:03:48] Jason: Yeah.
[00:03:48] Caroline: ...it's like Jason loves coffee, but Caroline loves art...
[00:03:52] Jason: Yeah.
[00:03:52] Caroline: ...and together, they had a baby and it's like beautifully designed with all these fun patterns.
[00:03:56] Jason: It's also, it's like so well organized...
[00:03:57] Caroline: So colorful.
[00:03:57] Jason: ...the little QR codes with every single...
[00:04:00] Caroline: Story of each one.
[00:04:01] Jason: ...of which the different types of coffee does. My favorite thing is I tried to check the QR code out early because as we're recording this, it's not December 1st, and that's when they start working. And they didn't work. And so, I said, I was like, "Hey, I just want to make sure..." And they're like...
[00:04:12] Caroline: You sent them an email. You said that really fast. So you...
[00:04:15] Jason: I sent them an email...
[00:04:16] Caroline: Yes.
[00:04:16] Jason: ...just saying like, "Hey, I noticed the QR code didn't work. I just want to check because I run business with websites and things go down or whatever." And they were back like, "Yeah, we didn't want anyone to eat their chocolate early."
[00:04:26] Caroline: Yes.
[00:04:26] Jason: And I laughed, and I was like, I totally was trying to eat my chocolate early.
[00:04:29] Caroline: You were.
[00:04:29] Jason: And we had a good laugh back and forth in the email. So I will link both of those things in the description of a podcast. I don't even know if anybody reads description of podcasts anymore, but that's where the links will be. I'll find the Onyx Advent calendar because I'm 99% sure they have one. And then I'll also link to the 19grams for those of you who are in Europe. That is going to be such a fun purchase for you. And you basically get like, it's almost the exact same cost of what you would buy in bags of coffee for the 25 days of...
[00:04:55] Caroline: Yeah. Like it's a...
[00:04:56] Jason: It's $100.
[00:04:59] Caroline: Which is pricey.
[00:05:00] Jason: Yeah.
[00:05:00] Caroline: But if it brings you a lot of joy, then...
[00:05:02] Jason: And coffee is just...
[00:05:03] Caroline: Exactly. And then like you said, you did the math and you're like, it would be the same as if I tried...
[00:05:06] Jason: Literally would have been the same.
[00:05:07] Caroline: ...try out all these coffees.
[00:05:08] Jason: Yeah.
[00:05:09] Caroline: Two things to that. Number one, Onyx would be such a badass name. Like I would...
[00:05:12] Jason: For a kid?
[00:05:13] Caroline: Yeah. I would never be brave enough to...
[00:05:14] Jason: But it was.
[00:05:15] Caroline: No.
[00:05:15] Jason: But it was.
[00:05:16] Caroline: I'm not naming our kid Onyx.
[00:05:18] Jason: Yeah.
[00:05:19] Caroline: But I do think that's a badass name.
[00:05:20] Jason: What about Tablo?
[00:05:22] Caroline: Oh, God.
[00:05:23] Jason: But not like...
[00:05:24] Caroline: What's that?
[00:05:24] Jason: ...not like the fancy version. T-A-B-L-O, Tablo.
[00:05:28] Caroline: Tablo.
[00:05:28] Jason: Yeah.
[00:05:28] Caroline: Okay. Throwing on me.
[00:05:31] Jason: Coming around? Tablo with the J on the end. The J is silent.
[00:05:33] Caroline: No, I like to pretend that I'm so brave with names. Like I think when the rubber meets the road, I'm not going to do that to a kid.
[00:05:38] Jason: We'll find out.
[00:05:38] Caroline: But I like entertaining it.
[00:05:40] Jason: Yeah.
[00:05:40] Caroline: Second thing is, I would love for someone to do some type of like a marketing podcast, maybe it's us, to do a deep dive on the explosion of demand in Advent calendars the past like five years.
[00:05:52] Jason: Yeah.
[00:05:52] Caroline: Because this was something that I feel like... When I was a kid, we had those the cardboard ones that have the little chocolate that's not even good.
[00:06:00] Jason: That's it. Yeah.
[00:06:00] Caroline: But I loved them so much. And it's just so fascinating to me that it has now become this thing where it's like nail polish Advent calendars...
[00:06:10] Jason: Yeah.
[00:06:10] Caroline: ...and perfume Advent calendars and skincare and coffee and stationary supplies and like everything. And I'm just like, who started that trend? And obviously, Advent calendars are not like secular by nature, but then...
[00:06:23] Jason: Yeah.
[00:06:24] Caroline: ...as all hyper capitalism does...
[00:06:25] Jason: Yeah.
[00:06:26] Caroline: ...they're like, we can make tons of money off this.
[00:06:27] Jason: We had one last year. For those of you who love chocolate, we bought the Tony's Chocolonely one. And that's the name of the brand of the chocolate company. They're an incredibly well-run chocolate brand that is very ethical.
[00:06:39] Caroline: Ethically sourced chocolate.
[00:06:39] Jason: And they have no child labor, which is very difficult in chocolate. But if you want to check that one out, that's a good recommendation. If you're like, oh, I don't drink coffee, but you want a fun one and you don't want the kind of like standard one that you're going to get from like, I don't know, whatever, like Hershey or Dove or something like that. Tony's Chocolonely. Very good.
[00:06:56] Caroline: Very.
[00:06:56] Jason: All right. Let's get into this draft. Let's stop farting around here.
[00:06:59] Caroline: Okay. Stop farting around.
[00:07:00] Jason: Oh.
[00:07:00] Caroline: What's that?
[00:07:01] Jason: I had a fun way to think about who gets to pick first.
[00:07:05] Caroline: Okay.
[00:07:05] Jason: I'm going to look up the answer to this.
[00:07:09] Caroline: Okay.
[00:07:09] Jason: But whoever gets closest up or down, we're just going to say closest.
[00:07:13] Caroline: Okay.
[00:07:14] Jason: Okay. The question is, how many turkeys are sold in the US at Thanksgiving? Okay?
[00:07:21] Caroline: Oh, goodness gracious. I think this is going to be sad when I realize...
[00:07:25] Jason: Yeah.
[00:07:25] Caroline: ...how many turkeys.
[00:07:26] Jason: Yeah.
[00:07:27] Caroline: I mean, it has to be in the millions.
[00:07:28] Jason: Yeah. What's your guess?
[00:07:31] Caroline: 20 million turkeys.
[00:07:32] Jason: Okay. I'm going to guess...
[00:07:33] Caroline: Is that too many?
[00:07:34] Jason: I'm going to guess 50 million turkeys.
[00:07:37] Caroline: Is that bad enough?
[00:07:37] Jason: How many...
[00:07:37] Caroline: You said 50 million.
[00:07:38] Jason: ...turkeys are...
[00:07:38] Caroline: I said 20. I feel like that's too much.
[00:07:39] Jason: ...on Thanksgiving.
[00:07:40] Caroline: But no, it's got to be, right?
[00:07:43] Jason: 46 million turkeys.
[00:07:45] Caroline: Oh, my God. But you went over, so it's...
[00:07:46] Jason: No, I said it before.
[00:07:48] Caroline: I'm kidding.
[00:07:48] Jason: Okay. You're so...
[00:07:49] Caroline: Oh, my God. Your defensiveness is hilarious.
[00:07:51] Jason: I was just about to say, I laid the rules out, ma'am. 46 million.
[00:07:54] Caroline: Your face. "No, I said..."
[00:07:56] Jason: Well, I clearly spoke the rules. Clearly, the rules were spoken.
[00:08:01] Caroline: 46 million turkeys.
[00:08:02] Jason: Wow.
[00:08:02] Caroline: Oh, turkeys.
[00:08:04] Jason: Wow. Geez.
[00:08:05] Caroline: It makes me sad.
[00:08:06] Jason: It does. It's a little bit sad. Anyway, let's move on from the sadness and let's get into the gladness. And that is going to be this draft. All right. I have the first overall pick.
[00:08:13] Caroline: Okay.
[00:08:14] Jason: Because I got that right.
[00:08:15] Caroline: Yeah, you did.
[00:08:15] Jason: Now, I could absolutely crush you right here.
[00:08:19] Caroline: No, you couldn't.
[00:08:20] Jason: I could absolutely just demolish you.
[00:08:20] Caroline: No, I know what you're going to say. That's fine. I know how a draft works. If you want to take mine...
[00:08:24] Jason: And I could...
[00:08:25] Caroline: ...and you want to demolish me, you're going to pay for it later in our marriage. But I'm just kidding. They're your favorite.
[00:08:30] Jason: I'm going to take green bean casserole. I know that's not what you want.
[00:08:33] Caroline: I know. I know.
[00:08:34] Jason: I know what you want first overall pick.
[00:08:35] Caroline: I know.
[00:08:35] Jason: But I'm taking green bean casserole.
[00:08:36] Caroline: So you're letting me have my first pick.
[00:08:38] Jason: I am.
[00:08:38] Caroline: Green bean casserole is delicious. And we did finally come to this conclusion that we just really love those little crunchy onions.
[00:08:46] Jason: The crunchy French onions is the best part.
[00:08:48] Caroline: Just so you know, we buy the crunchy French onions that you put on green casserole, and we keep it in our pantry, and we just pour it on things year-round.
[00:08:55] Jason: They go on things all year round. It's fantastic. Also, we are going to try a new green bean casserole recipe this year that you sent me...
[00:09:00] Caroline: Yeah.
[00:09:00] Jason: ...and we're just going to go for it, because we've used the same one for five years, and it's been very good, but I think we both know it, yeah.
[00:09:06] Caroline: We're ready to switch up. Also, the French onion things that we keep on hand, we call them crunchies.
[00:09:11] Jason: Yeah.
[00:09:12] Caroline: And I cannot recommend enough having... It doesn't have to be French onion, fried French onions, but have crunchies in your cabinet...
[00:09:17] Jason: Of course.
[00:09:18] Caroline: ...because crunchies really enhance any meal.
[00:09:20] Jason: Love a crunch. Love a crunch.
[00:09:21] Caroline: We just love a crunch.
[00:09:22] Jason: All right. So my first overall pick, green bean casserole, which leaves you...
[00:09:25] Caroline: With what you know is my first draft pick, which is, we'll say that, one, two, three. Mashed potatoes.
[00:09:30] Jason: Mashed potatoes.
[00:09:30] Caroline: Thank you for knowing my body.
[00:09:31] Jason: Yeah.
[00:09:32] Caroline: Yeah. To me, it's not Thanksgiving without mashed potatoes.
[00:09:34] Jason: Yeah.
[00:09:35] Caroline: And it's funny because it's like if I had to draft all my favorite potatoes, mashed potatoes wouldn't actually be at the top of the list.
[00:09:41] Jason: But...
[00:09:41] Caroline: But it is so inherently tied to Thanksgiving for me that I need to have it on there.
[00:09:46] Jason: Yeah.
[00:09:47] Caroline: So that's my first pick.
[00:09:48] Jason: Just for clarification, do you like them fully creamy, mostly creamy, a little bit chunky or a lot of it chunky?
[00:09:56] Caroline: Exactly evenly balanced. Creamy with a little chunks.
[00:10:01] Jason: So you want a little bit of chunk?
[00:10:02] Caroline: I don't like a coarse mashed potato...
[00:10:04] Jason: Right. Right.
[00:10:04] Caroline: ...like a dry, coarse mashed potato. And I don't like a totally smooth mashed potato.
[00:10:08] Jason: I don't want it to, like I pick up a spoon, and it drips.
[00:10:10] Caroline: I don't like that.
[00:10:10] Jason: Yeah, it's got to hold itself together nicely.
[00:10:12] Caroline: Yeah. But I want it thick, and I want it... Yeah, just delicious.
[00:10:17] Jason: Okay.
[00:10:17] Caroline: An ample amount of butter, I would say.
[00:10:18] Jason: My second overall pick, I'm going to take mac and cheese off the board.
[00:10:22] Caroline: I knew you were going to take mac and cheese.
[00:10:23] Jason: Yeah.
[00:10:23] Caroline: And also, I just recently found out that people think this is not a Thanksgiving food mac and cheese.
[00:10:28] Jason: I know. And there is controversy here. We're going off of a list that I put together for our Wandering Aimfully coaching session. I do a fun little tier list...
[00:10:35] Caroline: Yeah.
[00:10:35] Jason: ...where I rank things. We added this into our Thanksgiving rotation 10 years ago, and I just...
[00:10:41] Caroline: And so, it's just in our family. But I didn't grow up having mac and cheese as a thing.
[00:10:45] Jason: I didn't either.
[00:10:45] Caroline: But yet, I grew up in the south, and I do feel like there's probably a good amount of people who are, like...
[00:10:51] Jason: It's just perfectly poised to be on a Thanksgiving place.
[00:10:53] Caroline: It is. Why isn't it... I don't know.
[00:10:56] Jason: It should absolutely be there.
[00:10:56] Caroline: Maybe it's because mac and cheese, I feel like, really gets its heyday in the summer.
[00:11:00] Jason: Could be.
[00:11:00] Caroline: I feel like mac and cheese is like a barbecue type thing.
[00:11:03] Jason: But you're putting it on Thanksgiving plate. It's perfect.
[00:11:06] Caroline: It's not like it needs to be seasonal.
[00:11:08] Jason: Exactly.
[00:11:09] Caroline: Okay.
[00:11:10] Jason: Okay. Also, when we do a mac and cheese, we like to do a sheet pan mac and cheese. So you even it all out. You do a little crumble of breadcrumbs on top, you bake it in the oven, and you get a nice crunchy top on all of that mac and cheese.
[00:11:20] Caroline: If you wanted to make it more Thanksgiving, I was just thinking...
[00:11:22] Jason: Go for it. Cranberry sauce on top?
[00:11:25] Caroline: No. But I could see a world where it's like... What's the squash I'm thinking of? Like an acorn squash kind of puree.
[00:11:32] Jason: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I see.
[00:11:32] Caroline: Cheesy, squashy mac and cheese. That's got to be...
[00:11:35] Jason: Don't do that in my mac and cheese.
[00:11:35] Caroline: There's got to be a recipe somewhere with some fun fall type of herbs.
[00:11:40] Jason: Sure.
[00:11:41] Caroline: Now I'm just...
[00:11:41] Jason: Okay.
[00:11:42] Caroline: ...kind of spitballing.
[00:11:43] Jason: Get in the kitchen, see what's up. All right. What is your second overall pick?
[00:11:45] Caroline: Now, you saying get in the kitchen on a podcast, you're about to get canceled real fast.
[00:11:49] Jason: See what's up. But I followed it up with, "See what's up."
[00:11:51] Caroline: See what's up. Okay. What's...
[00:11:53] Jason: Yeah. So it's, "Hey, get in the kitchen, but see what's up."
[00:11:54] Caroline: Okay, so you took mac and cheese.
[00:11:55] Jason: Yes.
[00:11:55] Caroline: Okay. So my pick is, it pairs very nice with mashed potatoes. I'm going to go ahead and take gravy.
[00:12:01] Jason: Oh, you're going to take gravy? Okay.
[00:12:02] Caroline: I'm going to take gravy because it's actually not even my favorite thing because it grosses me out about how you make gravy. But if I'm just being totally honest, when I was picking my things, I pictured myself at a family get together where it's like buffet style. What am I excited to pour on my chinate paper plate? You know what I mean?
[00:12:18] Jason: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:12:20] Caroline: That's what we used to do Thanksgiving...
[00:12:21] Jason: Of course.
[00:12:21] Caroline: ...some years, just a bunch of family gets together. This is not like, sit down on the nice china. This is like chinate like buffet style. And I pictured myself being excited to pour gravy on my stuff.
[00:12:31] Jason: I wonder what percentage of families are sit at a table and it's like, it feels fancy or it's like we all just get together and there's so many of us, like we can't sit at a table. And we just paper plate it.
[00:12:39] Caroline: And you grew up in a fancy sit-down family.
[00:12:41] Jason: Yeah. Well, because we have a small family.
[00:12:42] Caroline: Exactly.
[00:12:43] Jason: Yeah.
[00:12:43] Caroline: But I grew up in absolute chaos.
[00:12:45] Jason: Yeah.
[00:12:45] Caroline: And so, it's like you better not get out the good china. You better buy paper plates. Somebody bring the ice. And it's 20 people at a card table.
[00:12:51] Jason: You can imagine a Thanksgiving dinner of eight people doing paper plates, standing around would be super weird. There's just not enough people. You're like why aren't we just sitting at the table? Like that's the table is that size.
[00:13:02] Caroline: Yeah.
[00:13:02] Jason: And then 20 people at a big table is like you got to have a lot many...
[00:13:05] Caroline: But now I'm used to it because we've done Thanksgiving with your family so many years now...
[00:13:08] Jason: Yeah.
[00:13:09] Caroline: ...that I'm like, oh, it is nice to sit at a beautiful well-made, well-set table, and it's like cozy, whatever. But I do love the chaos of just like...
[00:13:18] Jason: Yeah, if you want this year, we can just do paper plates, and you and I can mill around and pretend to be different people.
[00:13:22] Caroline: Like around the kitchen island. Yeah.
[00:13:23] Jason: Yeah. I'll be Uncle Jerry. Throwback for another episode. Okay. My third overall pick. I have a very interesting pick to make here.
[00:13:29] Caroline: Okay.
[00:13:29] Jason: Because there's two items that I want, and I don't necessarily know that you care about these items...
[00:13:35] Caroline: Okay. Well, then maybe...
[00:13:35] Jason: ...but I want them on my plate.
[00:13:37] Caroline: ...one could be three, one could be four.
[00:13:38] Jason: I'm going to go rolls here. And I'm going to say that rolls include crescent rolls or...
[00:13:44] Caroline: Some type of roll.
[00:13:45] Jason: Some type of roll.
[00:13:45] Caroline: Rolls was on my list, but it wasn't that high up.
[00:13:47] Jason: I didn't think it was going to be that high up, but I just know that I wanted it on my plate, and I didn't want to miss out, just in case you decided to take.
[00:13:53] Caroline: Yeah. Okay.
[00:13:55] Jason: Okay. Oh, also...
[00:13:56] Caroline: Yeah.
[00:13:56] Jason: ...for my family, we're definitely doing the Pillsbury crescent rolls. Like you got to do...
[00:14:00] Caroline: Yeah.
[00:14:01] Jason: ...those ones that come out of the little container that they're barely food anymore.
[00:14:04] Caroline: We were talking about it. I do think my family does Kings Hawaiian some years.
[00:14:07] Jason: King's Hawaiian is a great option because...
[00:14:09] Caroline: Yeah.
[00:14:09] Jason: ...you don't have to do anything. Just heat those puppies up, and you're good to go.
[00:14:11] Caroline: They're like a perfect little, sweet...
[00:14:12] Jason: But I will be making our Japanese milk bread rolls.
[00:14:15] Caroline: Japanese milk bread rolls with the parsley butter thing.
[00:14:17] Jason: With the compound parsley butter with some garlic on top.
[00:14:20] Caroline: That bread is so good.
[00:14:21] Jason: Those are fantastic. Yeah. What I'm going to do. All right, your third pick, ma'am.
[00:14:24] Caroline: My third pick. I'm actually going to go with roasted carrots.
[00:14:29] Jason: Ooh.
[00:14:29] Caroline: And I'm going to go with like a rustically cut...
[00:14:32] Jason: Interesting.
[00:14:33] Caroline: ...roasted carrot with rosemary and like a little sweet and savory. Like you were saying...
[00:14:40] Jason: Hmm.
[00:14:40] Caroline: ...maybe a honey drizzle, but also salt, like coarse salt.
[00:14:43] Jason: Yeah, yeah, yeah. We've really been into adding roasted carrots into the rotation the past couple years, and it's a delight. It's just delicious.
[00:14:48] Caroline: It's a delight. Oh, and there's lots of butter involved in that, just to be clear.
[00:14:52] Jason: Of course. Obviously.
[00:14:53] Caroline: Because you're just tossing them in butter and...
[00:14:55] Jason: Yeah.
[00:14:56] Caroline: Yeah. I just think they add a nice kind of sweet and savory to the plate, especially when everything else is wet.
[00:15:03] Jason: It's also a really easy thing to cook. Like if you've never added roasted...
[00:15:06] Caroline: Yeah.
[00:15:06] Jason: ...carrots to the rotation in Thanksgiving...
[00:15:08] Caroline: It's simple.
[00:15:08] Jason: ...it can go in the oven with almost anything.
[00:15:10] Caroline: Yeah.
[00:15:10] Jason: It's really hard to overcook them.
[00:15:12] Caroline: Adds a nice pop of color.
[00:15:13] Jason: You can't undercook them. So it's just, it's a very easy good go-to. Okay. My fourth pick. So currently I have green bean casserole, mac and cheese, and rolls. Now, there's an item that I want on here, but I don't think it's going to matter, so I'm going to go ahead and take potatoes au gratin.
[00:15:31] Caroline: Oh.
[00:15:31] Jason: I know you're not going to need them on your plate...
[00:15:33] Caroline: No.
[00:15:34] Jason: ...because you're vegan...
[00:15:35] Caroline: Yeah.
[00:15:35] Jason: But I just, again, I'm choosing things I want on my plate.
[00:15:37] Caroline: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:15:38] Jason: And so, some good, scalloped potatoes layered up, a little bit cheese, a little bit of garlic, a little bit of roux in there to bring it all together.
[00:15:46] Caroline: Mm-hmm.
[00:15:46] Jason: It's basically like a pie with load of potatoes.
[00:15:48] Caroline: How wet or dry? Like how congealed or wet?
[00:15:52] Jason: Ooh, halfway.
[00:15:53] Caroline: Half. Yeah.
[00:15:53] Jason: Right in the middle. Halfway.
[00:15:54] Caroline: Right in the middle. That's the ideal.
[00:15:54] Jason: I don't want them too dry that I'm like...
[00:15:56] Caroline: I would say, I want... Hmm, it's hard to say. It's like... No, right in the middle. Right in the middle.
[00:16:02] Jason: Yeah, right in the middle. Right in the middle is perfect.
[00:16:03] Caroline: One thing I don't have on my list, but I just want to say it out loud...
[00:16:05] Jason: Sure.
[00:16:06] Caroline: ...because this was very specific to my family.
[00:16:09] Jason: Yeah.
[00:16:09] Caroline: But my mom makes a squash casserole.
[00:16:11] Jason: Yeah, no, thanks.
[00:16:11] Caroline: That is my favorite thing growing up.
[00:16:14] Jason: Yeah.
[00:16:14] Caroline: I would, like ask for it.
[00:16:16] Jason: We all have these dishes that we grow up with. Yeah.
[00:16:17] Caroline: We all have these dishes. And it sounds so strange, but it's like squash, and it's a corn flake topping.
[00:16:24] Jason: Mm-hmm.
[00:16:24] Caroline: So you crush cornflakes on top.
[00:16:26] Jason: Yeah.
[00:16:26] Caroline: And it just gets nice and crunchy in the oven.
[00:16:29] Jason: Never grew up enjoying the casseroles, but I can see how you would like it. Okay. Your fourth pick, ma'am. So you currently have mashed potatoes.
[00:16:34] Caroline: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:16:34] Jason: You have gravy on those mashed potatoes.
[00:16:36] Caroline: Yeah.
[00:16:36] Jason: You have roasted carrots that you're not going to put gravy on.
[00:16:38] Caroline: Yeah.
[00:16:38] Jason: What's next?
[00:16:39] Caroline: Turkey is what I'm going to go. I'm going to turkey.
[00:16:40] Jason: White or dark meat? We have two choices.
[00:16:42] Caroline: White meat.
[00:16:43] Jason: Okay. But there's two choices. Because it is basically two options. You don't agree?
[00:16:49] Caroline: You're...
[00:16:51] Jason: You don't agree?
[00:16:51] Caroline: I think if I take turkey, I take turkey off the plate.
[00:16:54] Jason: All right. I'll give it to you.
[00:16:55] Caroline: Yeah.
[00:16:55] Jason: I'll give it to you. Because here's the thing, we've done no turkey in our Thanksgivings for all years we've been together, basically, so it's not as usual...
[00:17:04] Caroline: Yeah. We do, in all sides, Thanksgiving... Well, we were vegan for three years, and that's where it started.
[00:17:09] Jason: Yeah.
[00:17:09] Caroline: And then just after we stopped being vegan, we were like, do you want turkey? And we were like, no.
[00:17:14] Jason: No. I will say if I'm choosing...
[00:17:16] Caroline: We're not one of the 46 million.
[00:17:18] Jason: We're not. Dark meat would be my choice.
[00:17:20] Caroline: And white meat would be my choice.
[00:17:21] Jason: Which is great for us.
[00:17:22] Caroline: I know.
[00:17:23] Jason: It's fantastic. It works that well.
[00:17:24] Caroline: Match made in heaven, babe.
[00:17:25] Jason: My family does do a really good job with turkey.
[00:17:27] Caroline: Oh, yeah. Their turkey is great.
[00:17:28] Jason: They nail it. Like they do it on a Weber Grill.
[00:17:30] Caroline: Because it's the smoked. Yeah.
[00:17:31] Jason: It takes 16 hours. It is something fierce.
[00:17:34] Caroline: They do a great job.
[00:17:34] Jason: They do a great job. All right, my fifth and final pick. I've got mashed potatoes. Sorry. I've got green bean casserole. I've got mac and cheese. I've got rolls. I have some potatoes I've gotten. My entire plate is beige with a splash of green in the casserole. And I need to finish this off with some apple pie.
[00:17:50] Caroline: You're taking apple pie? Take pumpkin pie so I can have apple pie.
[00:17:53] Jason: I'm so sorry.
[00:17:54] Caroline: Buddy, I don't like any of the pies except apple.
[00:17:56] Jason: I know, I know. I'm so sorry.
[00:17:57] Caroline: It's so rude.
[00:17:57] Jason: I left you mashed potatoes to start with. I gave you a very fair start.
[00:18:01] Caroline: Right after you took green bean casserole.
[00:18:03] Jason: But I do have to take apple pie off the board for my dessert in this plate.
[00:18:09] Caroline: Okay.
[00:18:09] Jason: And my entire plate, I want you to know, is a very monotone color, and there is no color variation except for a splash of green.
[00:18:15] Caroline: I literally feel full. Like there's something happening in my brain.
[00:18:20] Jason: Yeah.
[00:18:20] Caroline: We're talking about all this food, I literally I'm like, whoa, stuffed right now.
[00:18:24] Jason: Yeah. Okay. What's your final pick? It's going to go with your mashed potatoes, the gravy, the roasted carrots, and the turkey.
[00:18:29] Caroline: Yup. And I'm going to go wet stuffing.
[00:18:31] Jason: Ew.
[00:18:32] Caroline: I know.
[00:18:33] Jason: Ew. But that's your choice. It's your body, your choice.
[00:18:34] Caroline: That's my choice. I'm going to go wet stuffing. And to me, when I think about my... Once again, my china paper plate.
[00:18:41] Jason: Yeah.
[00:18:42] Caroline: Because it's sturdy.
[00:18:42] Jason: Yeah, of course. Yeah, yeah.
[00:18:43] Caroline: You can really load it up.
[00:18:44] Jason: It's thick.
[00:18:45] Caroline: Not sponsored.
[00:18:46] Jason: Yeah.
[00:18:47] Caroline: I am picturing the mashed potatoes. I am picturing the gravy on the mashed potatoes. I'm picturing the nice pop of color with the roasted carrots.
[00:18:54] Jason: Mm-hmm.
[00:18:54] Caroline: And a veggie. I'm picturing the turkey, which feels very Thanksgiving.
[00:18:58] Jason: Yeah. For sure.
[00:18:58] Caroline: And I'm picturing then the wet stuffing. And that, to me, is a Thanksgiving plate.
[00:19:03] Jason: I will say, just to throw this really quickly to fantasy football, there's strategy called Hero RB or Zero RB. RB being running back. If you go Hero RB, it means you're choosing a running back with your first overall pick, and then you're not choosing running back until later, and you're really hoping that running back dominates the season.
[00:19:19] Caroline: Does it. Okay.
[00:19:19] Jason: If you go Zero RB, it means you're going wide receivers and quarterbacks to start.
[00:19:23] Caroline: Yeah.
[00:19:23] Jason: You choose running backs later and you're hoping that a later round running back would rockets of the charts, which does happen every year. It always happens.
[00:19:29] Caroline: Okay. Okay.
[00:19:30] Jason: So I feel like...
[00:19:31] Caroline: Which one of those strategies do you prefer?
[00:19:32] Jason: I chose, I think, in this one, Zero RB, because I went with nothing of mine needs gravy. And this was the strategy that I went with was...
[00:19:40] Caroline: Oh.
[00:19:40] Jason: ...I'm not going to take mashed potatoes. And you can't have mashed potatoes...
[00:19:41] Caroline: And I went a very...
[00:19:43] Jason: ...without gravy.
[00:19:43] Caroline: And I went a very gravy, heavy Thanksgiving classic.
[00:19:46] Jason: Which is, I think, Hero RB.
[00:19:47] Caroline: So tell me your plate again.
[00:19:48] Jason: So my plate, I'm going to have nothing needs gravy. Green bean casserole.
[00:19:51] Caroline: Yeah.
[00:19:52] Jason: Mac and cheese.
[00:19:52] Caroline: Yeah.
[00:19:53] Jason: Rolls, potatoes au gratin, apple pie.
[00:19:56] Caroline: See, I still love that plate.
[00:19:57] Jason: I know, but it's...
[00:19:57] Caroline: I think both of our plates are great.
[00:19:58] Jason: But what I'm saying is none of it needs gravy. I think I did a great job.
[00:20:00] Caroline: No. Babe, I want you to hear me when I say this.
[00:20:02] Jason: Yeah.
[00:20:02] Caroline: I do... I heard you when you said none of it needs gravy.
[00:20:05] Jason: My plat plate doesn't need gravy.
[00:20:07] Caroline: None of it needs gravy.
[00:20:08] Jason: So that's how I finish with you finish with gravy sitting atop mashed potatoes, turkey and wet stuffing, goes with all three of those.
[00:20:15] Caroline: Yup.
[00:20:16] Jason: And a nice little splash of color with your roasted carrots...
[00:20:18] Caroline: Yeah.
[00:20:18] Jason: ...honey glaze, a little bit of butter.
[00:20:19] Caroline: And you know what? I'm not a sweet gal, so I don't need a dessert.
[00:20:23] Jason: This is true. You would be okay without it.
[00:20:24] Caroline: I'd be okay without it.
[00:20:25] Jason: I'll give you one bite of my pie.
[00:20:27] Caroline: That's sweet.
[00:20:27] Jason: Yeah.
[00:20:27] Caroline: Does it have ice cream? Vanilla?
[00:20:30] Jason: The first slice that I take, no.
[00:20:32] Caroline: Has no ice cream, Jason?
[00:20:33] Jason: But then the second slice, because I'm going to go back for a second one, because calories don't exist on Thursdays in the late November. Then I will put some ice cream on it. You can have that one.
[00:20:42] Caroline: Thank you, babe. That's nice.
[00:20:42] Jason: All right. That was our fun Thanksgiving draft. It gives you just a little glimpse into if you want to do this with your family or friends.
[00:20:48] Caroline: Maybe, some of you are listening to this as you just... Now, I'm just now realizing that as I said, oh, man, I feel stuffed. No, somebody is stuffed right now listening to this.
[00:20:56] Jason: For sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But this is a really fun, I think, game to do with family and friends because it gets the 20 minutes of just...
[00:21:02] Caroline: Yes.
[00:21:03] Jason: ...like us going back and forth. And if you have a couple more people, boy, you could end up with some weird plates.
[00:21:07] Caroline: That actually just reminded me, Jason, of the game that we loved last year that we should bust out. Priorities.
[00:21:13] Jason: Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah.
[00:21:14] Caroline: That was such a fun game. So that game is pretty much like this, which is...
[00:21:17] Jason: Yeah.
[00:21:17] Caroline: ...it's not a draft, but it's like...
[00:21:18] Jason: You choose the order.
[00:21:19] Caroline: There's five thing... Or like you get five cards, and then you have to choose the order in which...
[00:21:24] Jason: You like them.
[00:21:25] Caroline: You like them from worst to best, and it's very hard.
[00:21:27] Jason: Yeah.
[00:21:27] Caroline: And then the person you're playing with has to guess how you ranked them.
[00:21:31] Jason: Yeah.
[00:21:31] Caroline: Very fun.
[00:21:32] Jason: Yeah. What do we find out about me in that game always?
[00:21:35] Caroline: People or number four.
[00:21:36] Jason: People are like always number four.
[00:21:40] Caroline: Anything related to other people always number four.
[00:21:40] Jason: Yeah, always number four. All right, let's move into the second part of this funisode. We are going to draft similarly in the exact same way, our marketing...
[00:21:50] Caroline: Business tactics. Yeah.
[00:21:51] Jason: ...business tactics.
[00:21:51] Caroline: Marketing tactics. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:21:53] Jason: To guess who goes first, we are going to do another guess. Do you have an item you want me to look up that you want us to guess since I did the first one?
[00:22:02] Caroline: Sure. Let's do how many independent businesses currently get started every year in the United States?
[00:22:17] Jason: Wow.
[00:22:18] Caroline: How many people start a business?
[00:22:20] Jason: Wow.
[00:22:20] Caroline: I don't think that they have accurate data on that, but like...
[00:22:22] Jason: So how many new businesses...
[00:22:23] Caroline: ...that's probably the labor statistics.
[00:22:24] Jason: ...start every year in the US? Okay.
[00:22:25] Caroline: How many new businesses are started every year in the United States?
[00:22:29] Jason: Wow.
[00:22:30] Caroline: Yeah.
[00:22:30] Jason: Okay.
[00:22:31] Caroline: No idea.
[00:22:33] Jason: Man, I'm going to guess 5 million businesses.
[00:22:35] Caroline: That sounds right. I'm going to guess...
[00:22:35] Jason: Yeah. What's your guess?
[00:22:36] Caroline: I'll guess 10 million.
[00:22:43] Jason: Okay. This is me feverishly typing here in looking this stuff.
[00:22:50] Caroline: I mean, it's a long question to ask.
[00:22:53] Jason: 4.7 million. My guessing game.
[00:22:55] Caroline: Jason.
[00:22:55] Jason: But we know this about me.
[00:22:57] Caroline: No, I know you're so good at this. It's really...
[00:22:58] Jason: I'm pretty good at super random guesses.
[00:22:59] Caroline: It really bothers me...
[00:23:01] Jason: Yeah.
[00:23:02] Caroline: ...because how could you be so good at that?
[00:23:03] Jason: 2023 saw a record-breaking year with 5.5 million businesses started beating the previous high in 2021. 5.3.
[00:23:11] Caroline: That's fine.
[00:23:11] Jason: But on average, the last five years, 4.7. Great job, everybody.
[00:23:14] Caroline: Great job, everybody.
[00:23:16] Jason: All right, all right. I get first pick, which is I...
[00:23:18] Caroline: Why do you get first pick? Oh, because you just did...
[00:23:23] Jason: Again, I just want to be clear. In both trivia questions that we just did, you literally tried to break the rules that were set right before we did them. Both times. Both times.
[00:23:34] Caroline: Yeah. I was thinking about my things and then...
[00:23:37] Jason: Yeah.
[00:23:37] Caroline: ...I forgot that the activity we were doing was picking see who goes first. Okay, you go first.
[00:23:39] Jason: All right. I think there are two very clear marketing tactics that we would choose at the top of the list.
[00:23:46] Caroline: Speak for yourself. You don't know what's going on in my side.
[00:23:49] Jason: I think there are two extremely clear topics. I... And again, so parameters...
[00:23:55] Caroline: I think you should go Hero RB.
[00:23:57] Jason: I think parameters here are we're starting a new business.
[00:24:00] Caroline: New business in 2025.
[00:24:01] Jason: No one has heard of us. Like we don't have an audience.
[00:24:03] Caroline: Nobody's heard of us.
[00:24:04] Jason: Okay. So that definitely makes my pick locked in.
[00:24:07] Caroline: Okay. Okay.
[00:24:08] Jason: YouTube channel.
[00:24:09] Caroline: Interesting. Off the table.
[00:24:11] Jason: That is my number one pick because...
[00:24:12] Caroline: Damn.
[00:24:13] Jason: ...here's the reason...
[00:24:14] Caroline: No...
[00:24:14] Jason: ...no one knows about me.
[00:24:14] Caroline: Yeah.
[00:24:15] Jason: So I have to have discovery built into what I'm doing.
[00:24:17] Caroline: Yes.
[00:24:18] Jason: I have to be able to be found in some way.
[00:24:20] Caroline: Yes.
[00:24:20] Jason: I have to have an algorithm that might bring my content to the surface, and I have to have searchability for people to find me.
[00:24:28] Caroline: Fantastic.
[00:24:28] Jason: Yeah.
[00:24:28] Caroline: And I also think YouTube was on my list, but you took it, I've been telling you...
[00:24:33] Jason: At the top of your list?
[00:24:34] Caroline: It was number two on my list.
[00:24:35] Jason: Okay.
[00:24:37] Caroline: Which means I get number one of my own list, which is very exciting.
[00:24:39] Jason: Yeah. I'll take a guess at what it is. But go ahead.
[00:24:42] Caroline: I know you know what it is.
[00:24:42] Jason: Okay.
[00:24:42] Caroline: But the thing I have been thinking a lot about YouTube lately as well is the... I don't think there's another platform that gives you more bang for your buck in terms of long tail benefits.
[00:24:58] Jason: It's both. It's short and long.
[00:25:00] Caroline: It's short and long.
[00:25:00] Jason: Yeah.
[00:25:01] Caroline: Exactly. And what I mean by that is like we have friends who are YouTubers who spent years building up like incredibly successful channels. They can take off three months, six months, a year if they want to, and not create very many videos, and they are still getting paid out on AdSense...
[00:25:15] Jason: Absolutely.
[00:25:15] Caroline: ...on their back catalog.
[00:25:16] Jason: Yeah.
[00:25:17] Caroline: And making a really, really great living. And you just can't get that on any other platform.
[00:25:23] Jason: No. It is...
[00:25:24] Caroline: And so...
[00:25:24] Jason: That's why it's my number one overall.
[00:25:25] Caroline: I know. But I do think it is hard to break it. Have you heard about... By the way, side note, I just saw this in a video that I was watching, but have you seen they're launching... I forget what the name of it is. YouTube is launching like some type of incubator for small channels or something.
[00:25:40] Jason: Hmm. No.
[00:25:40] Caroline: I forget what it was called.
[00:25:42] Jason: Are you talking about the hype thing?
[00:25:43] Caroline: Hype. What is that?
[00:25:44] Jason: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's trying to help small channels get a little bit more acceleration and growth.
[00:25:48] Caroline: But is it its own platform or it's just...
[00:25:49] Jason: No, it's just like you can...
[00:25:51] Caroline: Like a program?
[00:25:52] Jason: I think it's like the way that I remember seeing and I haven't looked it up and might be getting this wrong. It's like the like button, but it's like a hype button.
[00:25:58] Caroline: Okay.
[00:25:59] Jason: And it gives a little bit more weight...
[00:26:01] Caroline: Okay.
[00:26:01] Jason: ...when you're like responding to video. I think that's what it was when I first saw it, but I may have be wrong about that.
[00:26:06] Caroline: Yeah. We have done zero research, obviously. I just saw it casually mentioned on like a podcast and so I need to look into it. But anyway, I think YouTube is a great first pick.
[00:26:15] Jason: That's my first pick. Had you had the first pick, would you have taken YouTube?
[00:26:19] Caroline: No.
[00:26:19] Jason: Oh, wow. Okay. So what's your first pick?
[00:26:23] Caroline: No, no, no. Because my first pick is going to be Instagram.
[00:26:24] Jason: Okay. That's what I thought.
[00:26:25] Caroline: And here are all of my reasons.
[00:26:26] Jason: Yeah.
[00:26:26] Caroline: For a lot of the same reasons that you said, which is like you have to go, if you're starting a brand-new business, you have to go to where the people are. Right?
[00:26:32] Jason: Yeah.
[00:26:33] Caroline: Which is why you went on YouTube. However, I do think that Instagram, there's something about it compared to YouTube where like the barrier is lower and you can get more reps in.
[00:26:45] Jason: And I think it's way more short-term reward for your effort.
[00:26:50] Caroline: Yes. And so, you could argue that like YouTube Shorts for example, could get you the same thing. But here's what I like about Instagram. It does three things for me as like a brand-new business owner. Well, four things really. Number one, it gives me...
[00:27:01] Jason: Could you squeeze to five? I'd like to hear five.
[00:27:02] Caroline: It gives me reps, meaning I am posting... I can post often, and I can kind of... Whatever my niche is, whatever... Let's just say it's Made Vibrant because that's like easy for me to think about. It's an art business and I'm doing acrylic art with like little messages and it's like I can post every day if I want and really start to refine who am I talking to, what is the value I provide. And also, I can get comfortable like "shipping", like just getting stuff out there. Whereas YouTube, I feel like there's a little bit more that goes into the end product of each of those. Again, shorts makes that more complicated. But I like Instagram because it's just getting reps in of like getting comfortable putting yourself out there. Number two, it acts as a sort of website and portfolio...
[00:27:42] Jason: Mm-hmm.
[00:27:43] Caroline: ...where I don't have to overthink creating this big fancy website. It's like your little Instagram page is your website. It's your calling card. At a glance, somebody should be able to know what is it that I do. I can put a link in my bio with a little link to my Teachery product or link to my... I can monetize that pretty quickly. And people are on there, expecting to click through to things now.
[00:28:05] Jason: Yeah.
[00:28:05] Caroline: The third thing that I like is that through DMs, it's almost like an email inbox, right?
[00:28:09] Jason: Yeah.
[00:28:09] Caroline: So you're on stories and you're saying, "Hey, contact me about my... I'm only going to sell 10 of these." So you can even sell through that channel. Oh, yeah. And then I said the other one was discovery.
[00:28:19] Jason: Yeah.
[00:28:19] Caroline: So I just like that. And for me... Oh, the fifth thing...
[00:28:22] Jason: Oh, we get to five. Nice.
[00:28:23] Caroline: I can stretch it to fifth. Is that I think it's also important, if I was starting a business, to pick my number one channel based on where I feel comfortable, and the type of people I want to attract.
[00:28:35] Jason: Yeah.
[00:28:35] Caroline: So you could argue that TikTok in 2025 is even more relevant than Instagram in some ways. But the reason I'm not going there is because me, even in this fictional scenario, I'm not yet comfortable with posting often on TikTok, also just being like an older millennial.
[00:28:50] Jason: Yeah.
[00:28:51] Caroline: I'm not going to feel like I... Plenty of people show up there authentically, and that's them. But to me, I'm going to feel the most comfortable and authentic on Instagram. So that's where I'm going to go.
[00:28:59] Jason: I think this is a really interesting start to this because it's playing out exactly as I'd hoped it would for me. And funny enough, I think it might play out how you want it to work out for you.
[00:29:08] Caroline: Which is why we're different.
[00:29:08] Jason: Now, the second overall pick, I would imagine we both have the same second overall pick.
[00:29:13] Caroline: No, because I knew you were going to pick it, so I didn't even put on my list.
[00:29:16] Jason: Really?
[00:29:16] Caroline: Yeah, I knew you were going to pick it.
[00:29:18] Jason: Count of three. One, two, three. Email list.
[00:29:23] Caroline: Email newsletter. Yeah.
[00:29:24] Jason: Yeah, I'm listening to this newsletter. Yeah, this newsletter. So I will be taking an email newsletter as my second marketing tactic.
[00:29:27] Caroline: Of course.
[00:29:28] Jason: For those of you who have not listened to our interview with Wayne Fick on our podcast, we've only ever done two interviews ever, and Wayne was one of those. This is the strategy that I coached WAIM up with to start his business.
[00:29:36] Caroline: You said WAIM.
[00:29:36] Jason: Wayne up with. And it was to have a YouTube channel and direct people to an email list. And Wayne has gone on to grow his YouTube channel to over 20,000 subscribers in a year and a half. And his email list is probably up to 5,000 subscribers at this point, just through a YouTube channel. So I would follow this exact blueprint myself. I would have a weekly email newsletter. I would be delivering value. I would be trying to create a relationship through the inbox with people. Because I still think in 2025 and beyond, email newsletters are going to be powerful. Yes, there are only ever going to continue to be more of them, but it is also a place where you can very much differentiate how you show up in someone's inbox with the structure of the newsletter, the content of the newsletter, the way it looks, the way it feels. I really like the personal relationship of the replying as well.
[00:30:25] Caroline: Mm-hmm.
[00:30:25] Jason: And it also, for me, I don't want to be on Instagram, and I don't want to be in DMs. So an email newsletter is like one step away from having to be on all the time.
[00:30:34] Caroline: Mm-hmm.
[00:30:34] Jason: So I like that about it. So this is just my one, two punch.
[00:30:39] Caroline: Yeah. I knew you were going to get email newsletter.
[00:30:40] Jason: I could literally have no other things and be like, this is my business strategy.
[00:30:43] Caroline: And the reason why we both couldn't start with email newsletter is because...
[00:30:46] Jason: You have no audience.
[00:30:46] Caroline: ...you're in a vacuum. Exactly. So you have to start by showing up in a place where people are.
[00:30:51] Jason: Which is, I think is just a, in this funisode, a very good small takeaway. Which is if you are getting started, your number one priority has to be existing in a discovery channel first, not a closed network like an email newsletter.
[00:31:04] Caroline: Yeah. We call that going to the mainland...
[00:31:06] Jason: Yeah.
[00:31:06] Caroline: ...in the marketing bridge metaphor.
[00:31:07] Jason: Carol, your second overall pick...
[00:31:08] Caroline: Okay.
[00:31:09] Jason: ...since you knew I was going to take an email list newsletter.
[00:31:11] Caroline: I did, but I'm a little bit nervous.
[00:31:13] Jason: Mm-hmm.
[00:31:14] Caroline: So I'm not going to do my original next pick because...
[00:31:17] Jason: LinkedIn?
[00:31:18] Caroline: No, because you took email marketing, which I should have seen coming. But I'm scared.
[00:31:22] Jason: Yeah.
[00:31:23] Caroline: I don't think you're going to take this actually, so.
[00:31:24] Jason: Okay. What do you got? Where you go with? I think this is very fun.
[00:31:31] Caroline: Okay. I'll...
[00:31:31] Jason: Because in real time, you have to like...
[00:31:33] Caroline: I know.
[00:31:33] Jason: ...now that you know things are up the board...
[00:31:34] Caroline: I don't think you're going to take this. I don't think you would ever do this. But if I'm just being honest, if email newsletter is off the table, I can't have an email newsletter.
[00:31:40] Jason: Yeah.
[00:31:41] Caroline: Okay. Then what I would do is I would come up with an SMS marketing strategy.
[00:31:45] Jason: Wow.
[00:31:46] Caroline: Yeah. And I would push people to my...
[00:31:47] Jason: I didn't even have that on my list.
[00:31:48] Caroline: I know, but it's just strategically...
[00:31:52] Jason: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:31:52] Caroline: ...I have to have a direct line of communication to my audience in order to sell, in order to deliver value. And it would be fun to like play around with an SMS strategy. I would think about just off the top of my head, if it's a sign up for my daily affirmation text or whatever.
[00:32:08] Jason: Right.
[00:32:09] Caroline: And I do a little piece of art every day and it sends it to somebody's SMS. And then I'm also doing promotional messages occasionally through that as well to sell whatever products I'm selling.
[00:32:19] Jason: I like it. I think it's interesting.
[00:32:20] Caroline: Yeah. Because, again, okay, if we're talking about... We basically have the same exact strategy here...
[00:32:26] Jason: Strategy. Yeah.
[00:32:26] Caroline: ...which is discoverability, number one, direct communication, number two.
[00:32:29] Jason: Yeah.
[00:32:29] Caroline: Yeah.
[00:32:30] Jason: All right. That leaves the door wide open for my third pick here. I have multiple options at my disposal. Ooh, what do I want to do? I think I'm going to go Threads as my...
[00:32:47] Caroline: Okay.
[00:32:47] Jason: ...my third pick. So I'm choosing Threads for two reasons.
[00:32:51] Caroline: Mm-hmm.
[00:32:51] Jason: Number one, because it's connected to Instagram. So I'm going to show up on people's Instagram feeds, as it happens in my...
[00:32:58] Caroline: Mm-hmm.
...when I log in Instagram, I see people's Threads stuff. So I like that because I'm getting into a whole other platform that I'm not even having to really do anything to do.
Mm-hmm.
[00:33:07] Jason: I don't want to be on Facebook, absolute dumpster fire of a place to exist. I have no interest in ever logging back into that platform ever.
[00:33:13] Caroline: Yeah.
[00:33:14] Jason: But I like Threads, and I like the use of it, and I like the way that it feels. It doesn't feel overwhelming to use. It feels very simple.
[00:33:22] Caroline: Mm-hmm.
[00:33:22] Jason: And I like that I can reach people. I like that search is happening a lot more on Threads as well. Like I've noticed I've gotten in there and I've searched Teachery just to see, like people having conversations about Teachery. And it's a pretty solid search. So I like that there is a little bit of discoverability in that way just through search...
[00:33:38] Caroline: Mm-hmm.
[00:33:39] Jason: ...because I'm not sure where we stand on blog posts moving forward and like people finding things in Google just because AI is completely breaking search.
[00:33:46] Caroline: Yeah. How do you feel about the reach of Threads? Because I haven't been on there in months.
[00:33:51] Jason: Yeah, I don't... I honestly...
[00:33:53] Caroline: Is it enough to be substantial?
[00:33:55] Jason: I don't know the answer to that because obviously haven't used it consistently. I do have the very small bit of anecdotal evidence, which is I signed up for Threads when it started, and I have a thousand followers on Threads, and I've posted like six times.
[00:34:08] Caroline: Yeah.
[00:34:08] Jason: So I think there is a discoverability built in that it is promoting accounts, it's showing accounts.
[00:34:14] Caroline: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think you're right.
[00:34:15] Jason: It's, again, I love that it shows up in Instagram as well.
[00:34:19] Caroline: Yeah.
[00:34:19] Jason: So I think for me... And again, I looked at this as Threads, BlueSky, LinkedIn and Twitter X as all one category of short-form messaging.
[00:34:29] Caroline: Yeah. Text...
[00:34:30] Jason: Yeah.
[00:34:30] Caroline: ...based.
[00:34:31] Jason: And like which one of those would I most want to be on? The fact that you didn't take any of those with your second pick, like that made it a no-brainer for me. And I know as a business owner, you could choose any of these.
[00:34:39] Caroline: Yes. And the reason why that I think makes sense in your lineup is because YouTube is primarily a long-form content space. So you adding in a microcontent element to show up in a different area, push people into your long-form content makes a lot of sense. And I think it goes to what my point was of why I chose Instagram is go to the platform that aligns with the type of content that feels most natural to you.
[00:35:03] Jason: Mm-hmm.
[00:35:03] Caroline: And I feel like you sharing thoughts like you don't have a real visual aspect of like...
[00:35:07] Jason: Exactly.
[00:35:08] Caroline: ...whereas art is a very visual platform...
[00:35:10] Jason: Mm-hmm.
[00:35:11] Caroline: ...and art process is maybe more video based and so it makes sense to be on a video/visual platform like Instagram. So I think that's a good pick from you.
[00:35:19] Jason: All right, so you started with Instagram, SMS marketing. What's your third pick?
[00:35:24] Caroline: So I...
[00:35:26] Jason: Oh, I didn't even... I know you're going to pick this at some point. I don't even have this on my list right now. Okay. Go ahead.
[00:35:31] Caroline: Okay. I am just going to be realistic here. Let's go back to my picks. Right?
[00:35:36] Jason: Yeah.
[00:35:37] Caroline: I'm a brand-new business. I'm starting Instagram. I'm under no illusions that I'm going to be able to pick up an audience quickly.
[00:35:44] Jason: Yeah.
[00:35:44] Caroline: It's going to be a slog in the beginning. And even if I set up my SMS little marketing thing, I have nobody to talk to. Right?
[00:35:51] Jason: Not a lot of people. Exactly.
[00:35:51] Caroline: Okay. Even though those I think are foundational and I still stand by those choices, I'm now starting to think like what is a growth hack where I can get in front of people quicker?
[00:36:03] Jason: Yeah.
[00:36:03] Caroline: And so, my third tactic is I would go as I would cold pitch myself as a podcast guest.
[00:36:09] Jason: Okay. So... Yeah. Okay.
[00:36:10] Caroline: So we're going to call this guest podcasting.
[00:36:12] Jason: Okay. Guest podcasting.
[00:36:13] Caroline: Guest podcasting. And the reason I like this is because, A, I'm going to other people's audiences.
[00:36:18] Jason: Yeah.
[00:36:18] Caroline: And I'm going to focus on people with small shows. I'm not going to pitch myself to huge shows.
[00:36:22] Jason: Mm-hmm.
[00:36:22] Caroline: But I'm really, I'm trying to get dozens of like subscribers or people into my orbit at a time and it's just going to be hand-to-hand combat for a while. And the thing I also like about being a podcast guest is it forces you to do a couple of branding things that I think are important in the beginning, which is what's my short little bio? What are my pillar topics that are valuable to talk about? What is my value proposition to my content?
[00:36:50] Jason: Mm-hmm.
[00:36:51] Caroline: I get to refine my messaging. I get to work on what are those couple handful of stories that I think are valuable. And then as an additional point, it adds a little bit of authority. Right? Because I'm sharing that I was on these podcasts, it starts to signal to my audience that I have something to say that people are interested in talking to me. And so, for all those reasons, guest podcasting is my number three.
[00:37:12] Jason: Yeah. I think it's a really good one. I think as a new business owner, there is an uphill battle to climb on someone seeing you as a valuable resource.
[00:37:19] Caroline: Totally. Which is why you are going to have to go like...
[00:37:22] Jason: War of attrition.
[00:37:22] Caroline: Yeah. You're going to send out a lot of pitches.
[00:37:23] Jason: Yeah.
[00:37:23] Caroline: And you're going to have to be smart about how you send those pitches. And here's the value I bring to your audience.
[00:37:31] Jason: Exactly.
[00:37:32] Caroline: Here are the things that I noticed about your show. Here's what I noticed you haven't done an episode on, like make it easy on the interviewer. And some of those interviewers will be so bogged down with their own workload...
[00:37:42] Jason: Exactly.
[00:37:42] Caroline: ...that they'll be like, "This is a no-brainer for me. Even though she doesn't come with an audience, she's an easy guest. She has good personality."
[00:37:47] Jason: Right. But interview shows need interviewees, so...
[00:37:50] Caroline: Exactly.
[00:37:50] Jason: ...that is like a plus column there is...
[00:37:53] Caroline: That's your leverage.
[00:37:53] Jason: Exactly. Okay. So I have YouTube channel number one, email list number two, Threads number three. I'm staying in the same vein as you are with this next pick and it would be to join other communities...
[00:38:05] Caroline: Uh-huh.
[00:38:05] Jason: ...like Slack communities, Discords, even joining people's programs.
[00:38:10] Caroline: Yeah.
[00:38:11] Jason: Like I would definitely highlight...
[00:38:12] Caroline: Set a budget for yourself and go...
[00:38:13] Jason: Exactly.
[00:38:13] Caroline: Yeah.
[00:38:13] Jason: I would highlight, okay, I can spend $2,500 this entire year.
[00:38:17] Caroline: Yeah.
[00:38:18] Jason: That's my budget, and I can join. Hopefully, that's like three to four communities where it's 1,000 plus people or more.
[00:38:25] Caroline: Yup.
[00:38:25] Jason: And all I want to do is position myself as whatever my expertise is, I'm helping people with that all the time.
[00:38:32] Caroline: All the time.
[00:38:32] Jason: And...
[00:38:33] Caroline: You're becoming the recommended person for X.
[00:38:35] Jason: Exactly. And I am showing up in as many conversations as possible to do exactly what you were just saying, which is to get in front of a lot of other people.
[00:38:42] Caroline: Totally.
[00:38:43] Jason: So I'm going to leverage the work that someone else has already done to build a community.
[00:38:47] Caroline: Yup.
[00:38:47] Jason: I'm going to be there. I'm going to deliver value, and I'm going to have people know me for the thing that I do and that they will start to associate my name. And listen, you're kind of like, you're picking up pennies a little bit in this version of doing marketing, but it's why it's my fourth thing that I'm doing in marketing...
[00:39:03] Caroline: Mm-hmm.
[00:39:04] Jason: ...and not my first, second, or third.
[00:39:05] Caroline: Yeah.
[00:39:06] Jason: So other communities would be my strategy, and I would definitely be setting a budget for myself and then allocating time. Like I think the other thing, and we see this in Wandering Aimfully. I think a few people do this well, but I think that people could do a lot better job of this, which is set aside an hour a week, carve out 15 minutes a day, and just be in the community, replying to every single post. Even if it's just encouragement, even if it's just asking a question, even if it's like, "Hey, here's the thing in my niche that I'm seeing this week that I think is interesting." I think more people would get a lot more value in communities if they actually put structured time into it and didn't just wait for like happenstance to occur for them to post something.
[00:39:45] Caroline: Mm-hmm.
[00:39:46] Jason: All right, what is your fourth pick? You have Instagram, SMS marketing and guest podcasting.
[00:39:50] Caroline: Yeah. This is going to be wild pick, but I'm taking it for a couple of reasons.
[00:39:55] Jason: Let's get wild.
[00:39:56] Caroline: Number one, I don't want you to have it.
[00:39:58] Jason: Okay.
[00:39:58] Caroline: Number two, I'm really trying to think through, is this what I would do? And...
[00:40:03] Jason: I'm going to... Okay. Go ahead.
[00:40:04] Caroline: And it goes against my conventional advice, but we're already assuming that we have an offer that we like that...
[00:40:11] Jason: Yeah. Yeah, totally.
[00:40:12] Caroline: ...even if right from the beginning, even if we have a small audience, like we have an offer where people are willing to buy.
[00:40:17] Jason: Yeah.
[00:40:17] Caroline: Okay. Let's just say that, that's, of course, a side issue. So with my fourth pick, I am going to choose affiliate marketing.
[00:40:24] Jason: Oh, interesting. Didn't have it on my list.
[00:40:26] Caroline: Affiliates, not affiliate marketing, meaning I'm an affiliate for brands to make money, meaning I am going to set up an affiliate program for my products.
[00:40:36] Jason: Oh, okay. So you're not going to talk about like ConvertKit or other things?
[00:40:40] Caroline: No.
[00:40:40] Jason: But I would say that gets wrapped in there, so you get all of that.
[00:40:43] Caroline: Really?
[00:40:43] Jason: Yeah, yeah, for sure.
[00:40:44] Caroline: Well, okay. Fine.
[00:40:44] Jason: I think affiliate marketing... Yeah. It's like the turkey, dark and white meat.
[00:40:47] Caroline: Okay. Turkey.
[00:40:48] Jason: You're taking turkey, you're taking it all. If you're taking affiliate marketing, you're taking both ways.
[00:40:50] Caroline: If it's got the word "affiliate" in it, you can't have it.
[00:40:52] Jason: Exactly.
[00:40:53] Caroline: And the reason I like that is because, again, I'm trying to think in my head, I've got discoverability covered now. I've got direct communication covered now. I've got a more discoverability. You could argue with the guest podcasting. Now, I really want, to me, it's like selling and discoverability is built into affiliate marketing.
[00:41:16] Jason: Yeah.
[00:41:16] Caroline: Because, again, I'm thinking of ways building an audience takes time. So with my picks, I'm trying to choose things that can grow my audience at a rate faster than I can grow it myself.
[00:41:28] Jason: Yeah.
[00:41:28] Caroline: Because I'm over here plugging away on Instagram and I'm at the mercy of the algorithm. But like with the podcasting, I'm dealing with their audience. That feels like an amplification. With affiliates, as soon as I get rave reviews from customers, I'm now giving them the opportunity to promote my product on behalf of my community.
[00:41:49] Jason: Mm-hmm.
[00:41:49] Caroline: And that not only every time they talk about it, that builds my brand awareness. And then some percentage of that, let's hope, converts to sales.
[00:41:57] Jason: Yeah.
[00:41:58] Caroline: And so, then those people come into my audience, and it creates this virtuous cycle.
[00:42:01] Jason: Yeah.
[00:42:02] Caroline: Even though I'm still a young brand because I started in 2025, and I don't have a big audience. I've got 500 people on my SMS list.
[00:42:11] Jason: Yeah.
[00:42:11] Caroline: I'm still starting an affiliate program from the beginning.
[00:42:13] Jason: Yeah, I think affiliate marketing would be one that wouldn't work at all in the beginning. Like you have no customers to promote.
[00:42:21] Caroline: Right.
[00:42:21] Jason: But I think as soon as you start to get consistent sales of a thing...
[00:42:25] Caroline: Yup.
[00:42:25] Jason: ...it's an immediate thing you can add to it. And like you said, it is someone else doing the marketing work on your behalf. Again, I would also, if I was choosing affiliate marketing, I would do the other side of affiliate marketing, which is like I use ConvertKit, I use Teachery...
[00:42:38] Caroline: Yeah.
[00:42:38] Jason: ...I use these things. And like, here's my affiliate links. I have a tools page. I'm always mentioning that because it's a very passive way to try to get people to sign up for something that brings you a little bit of revenue.
[00:42:46] Caroline: And also, that reminds me one, like people, when they're just starting out and they're starting from scratch, they so often focus on what they don't have. They don't have experience, they don't have an audience. And what you do have is something very rare, which is you have the perspective of a beginner. And most people in the world, most people in your audience are going to be a beginner in some way.
[00:43:06] Jason: Yeah.
[00:43:06] Caroline: So the reason I like affiliate marketing in that regard of I use this tool, I use that tool is because a lot of the people that are going to be interested in those affiliate links are people who are getting started and they're going to trust you because you just got started.
[00:43:20] Jason: Yeah.
[00:43:20] Caroline: So you use your greenness, use your getting startedness to be like, hey, come along for the ride. I'm trying to get better at making my Instagram videos. Here's the light I've been using. Here's this editing software I've been using. Like, here's my Amazon storefront. Like, people are interested in like getting advice from people who are just a little bit ahead of where they are, not the person who has the expert gear.
[00:43:42] Jason: Yeah. All right. I have my final pick here.
[00:43:47] Caroline: Okay.
[00:43:47] Jason: And I'm between three things. I'm going to share them because obviously it's not going to matter.
[00:43:50] Caroline: Mm-hmm.
[00:43:51] Jason: I'm either choosing blogging...
[00:43:53] Caroline: Uh-huh.
[00:43:55] Jason: ...TikTok...
[00:43:55] Caroline: Uh-huh.
[00:43:56] Jason: ...or a podcast.
[00:43:57] Caroline: Okay.
[00:43:57] Jason: These are my last three things.
[00:43:58] Caroline: Well, you have to choose.
[00:43:59] Jason: I do have to choose. Blogging feels like probably... Well, I think podcasting is probably the one that is going to bring the least amount of immediate value and probably the hardest long-term value to gain. And a YouTube channel can act as a podcast. So I think I'm going to go to no on the podcast. That leaves me between blogging, which would be something I like to do.
[00:44:22] Caroline: Yes.
[00:44:23] Jason: So if I'm thinking about like in the pantheon of like things that I would really enjoy doing from a marketing perspective, blogging might actually be number one.
[00:44:30] Caroline: Mm-hmm.
[00:44:31] Jason: Now, the return on that is so difficult to quantify these days. And it's almost impossible to say it as a marketing tactic for someone that they can rely on because, again, AI is shifting everything when it comes to search. So I'm nervous there. TikTok feels like something I should be doing, but it also, in my list of things, you can see it's my last. So it's more of like an experimental. So for that reason I'm going to go TikTok as my first pick.
[00:44:53] Caroline: Wow.
[00:44:54] Jason: I'm going to leave blogging behind as an adult person in 2025 starting a business. And I'm just going to acknowledge the fact that my YouTube channel is my long-form searchability. I'm hoping people discover me for a while on the content that I'm creating. That's the same thing you're helping with a blog. And my blogging that I would do in written form I could do on YouTube.
[00:45:15] Caroline: Exactly.
[00:45:16] Jason: And I think it'd be fine. I think I need to be, at least, aware of TikTok and I need to be posting some version of the content I'm creating on TikTok to be relevant in 2025 as a new business. I think as an existing business...
[00:45:29] Caroline: You can rely on...
[00:45:29] Jason: ...like us, I think it's okay...
[00:45:30] Caroline: ...channels that exist.
[00:45:31] Jason: ...we already have audience growth channels and small flywheels going to build an audience. But that is going to be my fifth pick. So to wrap up, YouTube number one, email list newsletter, two, Threads number three, other communities number four and TikTok number five.
[00:45:45] Caroline: Wow. I really am excited for you to kick off this business. This sounds exciting. For my final pick, I am... I liked your approach of your slot number five is like an experimental.
[00:45:56] Jason: Yeah.
[00:45:56] Caroline: So I think what I'm actually going to go with, blogging was on there. Here's something that almost was my last pick that just came to my mind is I would do some type of crazy freebie offer, like a vault of all my freebies.
[00:46:11] Jason: Yeah.
[00:46:12] Caroline: And have my pop ups on my website or even a link in my bio to be like, get crazy amounts of my resources, because, again, that's what I can create. I can create a million planners in Canva.
[00:46:23] Jason: Right.
[00:46:24] Caroline: I can create a million art pieces. So I think that would be something that I might spend time on. But I also had webinars in there because I like to teach.
[00:46:31] Jason: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:46:32] Caroline: But I'm going to go with, for my slot number five, I'm going to go with Pinterest.
[00:46:35] Jason: Ah.
[00:46:36] Caroline: Okay.
[00:46:36] Jason: I didn't have it on the list and then we started talking, I remembered the Pinterest existed.
[00:46:40] Caroline: You knew.
[00:46:40] Jason: Which tells you how much I don't think about Pinterest at all.
[00:46:43] Caroline: Yes. And I know I've seen some criticism of Pinterest is just turning into all paid ads and blah, blah, blah. And I get that. But it still has a huge user base.
[00:46:51] Jason: Right.
[00:46:51] Caroline: And again, you can see a theme here of like, I'm thinking about myself and I'm thinking of the type of business that I have.
[00:46:59] Jason: Right.
[00:46:59] Caroline: So in my fictional world, it's an art business. And so, going to a visual platform like Pinterest is where I think I can reach my target audience in a discoverable way that also drives traffic.
[00:47:13] Jason: Mm-hmm.
[00:47:13] Caroline: So at that point... let's say if I'm not blogging because you took that and I can't have that. Or no, you didn't take that.
[00:47:18] Jason: I didn't take it. But yeah.
[00:47:18] Caroline: But let's say blogging is not on my list, but maybe I'm finding a way to that all my art and my pins, because that's where people are looking for that, too. They want little affirmations, they want little sayings like, those do really well on Pinterest. Maybe all of those are linking to my sales pages for my products, like whichever one feels relevant, or just my homepage or my website. But I would experiment with that, and I would maybe even experiment with paid Pinterest ads.
[00:47:42] Jason: Yeah. So to recap yours, Instagram number one. SMS marketing two. Guest podcasting three. Affiliate marketing four. Pinterest number five. What's interesting about yours is like your owned media of yours is really only Instagram and SMS marketing, which is interesting.
[00:48:03] Caroline: In what way?
[00:48:03] Jason: Like the guest...
[00:48:04] Caroline: I mean, I know SMS, but...
[00:48:06] Jason: Guest podcasting like you're putting content on someone else's thing.
[00:48:08] Caroline: Of course. Yup, yup, yup.
[00:48:10] Jason: You don't control that.
[00:48:10] Caroline: But I could repurpose that content.
[00:48:11] Jason: You could. Affiliate marketing, that's someone else doing the work.
[00:48:15] Caroline: That's them. Yeah.
[00:48:15] Jason: So it's just interesting, like the different strategy. The most interesting thing to me is as we're recording this in 2024 and we're looking ahead to 2025, the things that we are not prioritizing, if you were a new business owner, blogging, podcasting, webinars, being in subreddits, Twitter X, LinkedIn, BlueSky. And what I just find interesting about that, obviously this is the way that we look at business and the way that we focus on things, is it's interesting how those things have changed over time. And it's...
[00:48:44] Caroline: Completely. And that's business, right?
[00:48:46] Jason: Exactly. And I think you do have to be honest about like what is working, what is interesting to you. I would be really curious if anybody wants to take the time to listen back to this and make your own list of the top five.
[00:48:57] Caroline: Yes, because I think this is such a good end of year exercise, because something about the fun of making it a "fictional business", it put me in a different head space to choose these things because some of the sunk cost bias of all the things that we do in our business go out the window because I'm like, oh, it's a fresh business. Like I have no allegiance to anything I've done before. Like some of these picks that of myself surprised me.
[00:49:22] Jason: Mm-hmm.
[00:49:22] Caroline: And I think you and I might have a conversation after this about what are some of the insights that we got from doing that exercise that we want to apply to WAIM in the future, acting like WAIM was a brand-new business?
[00:49:34] Jason: Mm-hmm.
[00:49:35] Caroline: And just I think it allowed us to detach from that sunk cost bias of existing for 10 plus years.
[00:49:40] Jason: Yeah.
[00:49:40] Caroline: I mean, WAIM since 2018. But we've been in online business world for over 10 years and if you're someone who's been around that long, it can be really hard to accept what the new reality is of marketing.
[00:49:52] Jason: Absolutely. And I do think it's... I think it's a really good exercise also to remind yourself as someone who maybe doesn't like marketing, and I think we have a lot of listeners who like, they just don't love that aspect of this. There are a lot more ways to market than you think. And a lot of them have different strategies tied to them. So some of them are more discoverable, some of them are more leveraging other people's audiences that they've already built. Some of them are more experimental and I think that all of them serve a purpose. But the reality is if you do none of them, you get no results.
[00:50:21] Caroline: Correct.
[00:50:21] Jason: And I think a lot of times people get overwhelmed with the amount of things. We just listed off 10 things that we would do between the two of us as business owners. We may only have the capacity to do two of them.
[00:50:33] Caroline: Yeah. And what my strategy, if I was again starting this in 2025, I would give myself a month or two for each one of those five things. And I would layer them on. I wouldn't try to do all five at one time. I would be like, January, I'm getting my Instagram going and I'm going to post every day in January. And that's my only goal.
[00:50:49] Jason: Yeah.
[00:50:49] Caroline: Once I get that up and going, I wouldn't be like, okay... And maybe it takes two months, not one. Right? So maybe it's January, February, I'm going to just get comfortable, be putting myself out there, refining my message. Then I'm like, okay, March, my only job is to layer on the SMS and promote that on my Instagram. So now I'm using that as momentum.
[00:51:05] Jason: Mm-hmm.
[00:51:06] Caroline: Okay. Then April, I'm going to focus on doing my podcast tour. I'm going to start pitching myself. You're layering the complexity as you go, but you're starting simple...
[00:51:14] Jason: Yeah.
[00:51:15] Caroline: ...in this little concentric circle and then you're growing it as you go.
[00:51:19] Jason: I think this is a very fun exercise. Again, if you want to take the list that we just went through and rank your top five and send them over, would be happy to read them, hello@ wanderingaimfully.com. If you want to leave them as a comment on Spotify, you could do that as well, if you want to leave those. Feel free to leave your top five Thanksgiving dishes, too...
[00:51:36] Caroline: Of course.
[00:51:36] Jason: ...if you want, if you partake. But again, I think as 2025 rolls in, I think we're doing four more podcast episodes to end the year. We'll take a break for about a month from the podcast, then we'll come back, and I think we're going to be talking a lot more to begin the year of what are we focusing on, what matters in 2025 as a business owner, like what really is important to be spending your time on. And where are we going to spend our time? Because we have been off of almost all of these platforms without any real consistency. Except for YouTube was the one that I think we put some effort into this year and just to share how that goes and how it works for us and what we're thinking about.
[00:52:10] Caroline: Fantastic.
[00:52:11] Jason: All right.
[00:52:11] Caroline: Fun episode, babe.
[00:52:11] Jason: Hope you enjoyed this funisode. Hope you had a good... If you're in America and you celebrate Thanksgiving, you had a good Thanksgiving dinner. There weren't any huge political discussions. You avoided all those. You just focused on, hey, my idiot friends that I listened to on this podcast wanted me to have our family rank our top five Thanksgiving dishes. Let's focus on that, everybody. Let's spend on that.
[00:52:29] Caroline: Yes. And if you're not in the US, I hope you had a lovely Thursday.
[00:52:33] Jason: Yeah. And you just listen to this and you're like, the first half of this didn't really make much sense to me.
[00:52:37] Caroline: Yup, yup, yup.
[00:52:37] Jason: But I just, all I know is that Caroline loves mashed potatoes, and she has to put gravy on them.
[00:52:41] Caroline: And from here on forth, I hope that you think of American Thanksgiving as including mac and cheese.
[00:52:47] Jason: Yes.
[00:52:47] Caroline: And that we've now implanted that thought in your brain.
[00:52:50] Jason: For sure. All righty, that'll do it for us. We'll be back next week. Okay?
[00:52:54] Caroline: Bye.
[00:52:54] Jason: Bye.