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Explore the 3 keys to successful sustainability with Dominique Hadad, Founder & CEO of Green Scope Consulting. Discover how internal champions, strategic planning, and community engagement drive impactful sustainability programs.
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About the Guest
Dominique Hadad — Founder & CEO, Green Scope Consulting
Dominique is Founder and CEO of Green Scope Consulting, a Columbus-based consultancy helping organizations turn sustainability goals into measurable programs and operational results. With a background in engineering, operations, and systems thinking, Dominique launched Green Scope after winning The Ohio State University President's Prize, a grant-supported initiative designed to help student founders build solutions to major societal challenges. Today, Green Scope supports government agencies, schools, nonprofits, businesses, and waste authorities through sustainability program development, data management, and strategic planning.
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Clear Haze Exchange is an interview-led podcast focused on simplifying sustainability while uncovering the hidden systems, decisions, and long-term impacts shaping our built environment and energy future.
Hosted by Marcus Hazelwood, an energy engineer with 15+ years of experience in sustainability and energy efficiency consulting, the podcast has evolved across two seasons:
Season 1 focused on breaking down the fundamentals—making energy efficiency, building systems, and sustainability concepts more accessible and practical for a wide range of listeners.
Season 2 builds on that foundation, diving deeper into the systems-level thinking behind sustainability—exploring how decisions in design, operations, policy, and business strategy create long-term outcomes.
Each episode features thoughtful conversations with industry leaders, engineers, architects, researchers, and decision-makers who are actively shaping the future of sustainability. From building performance and infrastructure to sustainable chemistry and organizational mindset, Clear Haze Exchange connects ideas across disciplines to provide real-world insight.
This podcast is for professionals and curious minds alike, those who want to better understand not just what sustainability is, but how it actually works in practice.
If you're interested in smarter investments, better systems, and meaningful progress, you're in the right place.
Subscribe to Clear Haze Exchange on your favorite platform and join the conversation.
For inquiries or guest opportunities: hello@clear-haze.exchange
Hey everybody, I'm Marcus Hazelwood and welcome to Clear Haze Exchange. I'm an energy engineer with over 15 years of experience in sustainability and energy efficiency consulting. Many find these topics a little complex, so I created Clear Haze Exchange to help provide clear, actionable insight, clearing the haze, so to speak. We'll cover plenty of topics under the umbrella of energy efficiency and sustainability. Let's get into today's conversation. Welcome listeners to this Ohio Sustainability Leaders Series with season 2 of Clear Haze Exchange. Our guest is Dominique Hadad. Dominique is founder and CEO of Green Scope Consulting, a Columbus-based consultancy helping organizations turn sustainability goals into measurable programs and operational results. With a background in engineering, operations, and systems thinking, Dominique launched Green Scope after winning the Ohio State University President's Prize, a grant-supported initiative designed to help student founders build solutions to major societal challenges. Today, Green Scope supports government agencies, schools, nonprofits, businesses, and waste authorities through sustainability program development, data management, and strategic planning. Dominique is also co-host of the Green Champions podcast, where she highlights real-world sustainability success stories and practical solutions. Dominique, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me and thanks for saying all those words on my behalf. Absolutely. Gotta introduce the guests with all of their accolades, you know. It's so nice that we get to kick it off and you did all that for me. Yeah, absolutely. We had coffee a while back. I was looking forward to having conversation, dive a little bit deeper into what you're doing, especially as, you know, Columbus native. I'm always excited about, of course, sustainability around the community, and it seems like you're doing a lot of really exciting things. Yeah, I think we constantly kept saying, me too. Um, so, uh, yeah, I'm also very excited and, um, I am sure today I'm going to maybe be asking you questions right back to hear your thoughts on them. Yes. And we'll get to talking about your podcast as well. Yeah. A little, a little sneak peek for listeners. Uh, we'll have Marcus on the Green Champions Podcast here soon. Yeah. Looking forward to it. But for this episode, focusing on, of course, you can ask me questions too, but I'm going to focus on asking you more questions. So really to kick it off, if you could share a little bit about what you do and, and what brought you into this space. Yeah. Okay. So I run Green Scope Consulting, and so basically I help design and build sustainability programs. So when you think about that, there's two kinds of folks I get to work with. There's one that is maybe like, um, an onsite facility, and I get to help them figure out like, what does it mean from an operations standpoint to incorporate sustainability practices, especially when it comes to material management, waste management, that kind of thing. And then the other kind of client I work with is somebody who has funding or initiatives and they don't have capacity to manage a sustainability program. And so I get to think about the same operation efficiency but help them build programs that can scale and support that first group I got to talk about. Yeah. So I get to work with cities and solid waste authorities, um, nonprofits, um, all kinds of groups because whether you are in the design phase or the scaling phase. I like to help with the operational efficiency side of how, how do we actually build sustainability programs that last? Yes. Yes. That's a really profound statement. How do we build them? The word sustainability is a term people often don't understand the depth of what it really means. There's so much around it, which is why I built the Clear Haze Exchange. Clear Haze Exchange to clear the haze around sustainability, but how it's applicable to buildings, organizations. So you mentioned that you work with cities, schools, nonprofits, and, and businesses. What have you learned about why some organizations embrace sustainability, struggle to really get started? Yeah, no, that's a really good question. And I want to backtrack a millisecond to just echo what you said about sustainability. I think it is like becoming a really big umbrella term, which can leave people lost or confused on like what exactly we're talking about. Yeah. And so in the frame of the work that I do, a lot of what I'm working with is like resource stewardship, resource management. So that's materials, circular economy, uh, and then I know I do have some energy projects as well. And I— we talked about this, but I have background as an energy engineer, so I have, I have a tiny slice of the knowledge that Marcus has. Um, but when I say sustainability, those are the areas that I'm like a specialist in. Yeah. Um, and then to your question of what makes one organization or program maybe more successful than others, or what makes them more ready, I think one, and it's like an overrun concept, but it's true, internal champions make a big, big difference. Yes. And so having somebody who knows the organization and is willing to incorporate, quote unquote, sustainability into that space is so critical because every organization is unique. Every organization has their own things to figure out. And so, I don't, I think it is really helpful to have someone in there who's willing to champion that and lead the effort. Us external experts can only do so much. We're going to need people in the system to help guide us. And then the other thing I think is people who are willing to ask questions and understand that sustainability is cross-functional. Like, I think when you really are willing to open your mind to the fact that this is going to have to be across all our teams, um, that makes a big difference too of being more successful. It does not sit in one lane, and the organizations that are ready for thinking a bit bigger and asking questions and not being afraid to ask questions is like A great signal. Yeah. I like what you said about the champion. Fully agree. Because when, when consultants are hired, people tend to feel like, oh, you're the expert. You're coming in to do it. It's like, no, we mean the person inside the organization. You have the knowledge, you have that understanding. And as an advisor or consultant, we're here to help you because you understand more so about your company. So champion, very, very valuable. Yeah. Part. Can I give a fun example of an instance like that? I got to work with— this is probably like last year, I want to say, or, you know, a while ago. But I mentioned that because it's been, it's been a while since we did this project. But as a good example of this is I worked with COSI, which anybody in Columbus, Ohio is familiar with, our beautiful science facility. Yeah. And hopefully even outside of Columbus. COSI does programming like all over the world. Yeah, but we got to jump in to do a couple of events with the CoSize facility and they were trying to figure out how can these events be zero waste but not the building, just the events. And as a consultant, I was like, cool, I can solve that problem. Yeah, but I'd love to meet your facilities team and see what you're doing. We're going to be in here for a few days. So what if we could talk about the operations for the facility while we're running around, you know? Yeah. Yeah, long story short, but they have some really amazing champions at the organization who were willing to work with us and then took that as a learning opportunity. And I take almost no credit for what they're doing day to day now, but they have fully revamped their recycling system and they fully compost for the facility every day of the week. And those are things that like when somebody inside the organization is willing to learn, yeah, consultants like us can thrive because We are a little bulb of knowledge, but we only can be there for so short. And I loved that, that lasting impact came from a short instance. That's good. I also think about, and from an energy standpoint, an energy audit. If I'm going in to do an energy audit of a building, that facility's operations engineer is critical to have a good relationship with because I'm not coming in as the know-it-all engineer and I don't want to come off that way, but I want to build a relationship with that engineer to help help understand what do you need? How can I help deliver that? Or how can I help communicate to your CEO on what you need and how important it is? So that champion relationships is so valuable. And, and I love that about what you do because we're gonna talk a little bit more about this, but the value of relationships and especially in Central Ohio here, example. But going into from engineering to entrepreneurship, your journey in sustainability consulting wasn't through the traditional business path. What led what led you to start Green Scope? How long do you have? My background's in engineering, so I have a systems engineering background, like industrial systems. Yeah. Which, for context, that's looking at like manufacturing sites and like large corporate environments and optimizing for lean practices. So like less waste, less time wasted, resources, you know, that we're being mindful of. And so, like, I used to learn how to design, like, ergonomic workstations for people to be happy and healthy in work environments, but also how to do, like, time studies for, you know, getting more output per work hours or whatever. And so, I definitely have this efficiency at the core of things I care about and I'm trained to do. And then, when I was in college, I got involved in sustainability. So I was doing a lot of like student government work around getting involved with like, how does the university, which was Ohio State, which is basically a city. Yeah. How does, how does the university navigate its impact? How does it spark new projects? How does it try new things? How does it allocate funding to these initiatives? And I was just like wide-eyed watching those things get navigated. Yeah. And then frankly, I was also like, eating at local cafes and walking across the street to get dinner with friends and the things you do as a college student. Yeah. And I was like, hang on, why are my local cafes not doing the things that I'm learning about for big facilities when I'm hearing about their bottom line being so thin? Yeah. And I also graduated during COVID so plexiglass was going up in cafes and, you know, it was very apparent how much support was lacking for local organizations. And, you know, they were navigating like, oh, suddenly everything is takeout. Oh, suddenly I can't do certain things. And I just had a light bulb that I was like, if they're not getting support for basic business operations, then nobody's helping them navigate sustainability. And when you zoom out at a city level, those schools, cafes, restaurants, local organizations, are so key to the footprint of the community. So that was, that was really my segue into wanting to solve the problem. But you're right, I lacked all the business skills to build a business around that. But that was the inception of the idea. And then Ohio State was very kind to fund me to get started. That's good. That's good. So the Ohio State President's Prize, that's what helped launch your business. So how did that opportunity shape both mission and structure of Green Scope? Mm-hmm. I think so. The President's Prize at the time, it's changed shape since, but at the time the prompt was, if you could change one thing in the world, what would it be? Okay. End of prompt. Like, okay. There was not, what's your business idea? It wasn't like, what's your, you know, scalable tech solution? You know, it was like, if you could do one thing right now, what would it be? Yeah. And so mine was this idea for helping these organizations. And I think it just helped me think big about impact. And then the funding that I got allowed me to focus on the impact versus maybe, you know, having to focus on, frankly, like making money first. Um, and so I, I got to use a lot of that funding. I seed grants, actually. Yeah. And so like, if I would basically walk into places and say, hey, if you're gonna be for free, I'll give you money in exchange and I'll help fund that transition to the thing I'm going to illuminate that you need. Yeah, which you're very familiar when you do an energy audit, you create all these action items for them to take, to take going forward. Yeah. And I'm sure you wish you could be like, and here's the money to do that thing. So I got to do that early on was they gave me the opportunity to focus on the impact part and then I got good at it. Yeah, for lack of a better description. And now I get to, you know, have feel more confident having those like ROI conversations. Talking about what's going to happen next and, and being more confident as a consultant to guide them with, you know, that experience under my belt. Yeah, that's good. I love that. So before we dive too deep into— you, you've covered a little bit about what Green Scope, uh, does. You're someone who's built strong relationships through, uh, Central Ohio sustainability community. What is it about the Columbus region that has made it, uh, an exciting place for you to build your career? That's a good question. And thank you, by the way. That was a nice sentiment. I hope out there, there are people who are like, "Yeah, I'm her friend." What's made it exciting? I think the short answer is the people. But I'm kind of digging for something better for you, which, you know, why are these people so amazing? And I think honestly, I take it for granted because people are really amazing. Towards, um, in Central Ohio. And honestly, like, Ohio in general, I think it's a bad rap, and people are so awesome and friendly. Um, but I think part of that is just a willingness to give and show up. Um, and I've loved that. I think people are just really interested in being part of what makes the community better. Yeah. Um, and I think that's just been very palpable for me and very motivating because I, I love like the act of giving, and I love helping. Um, I've also been like volunteering for the majority of my business growth. I've been volunteering with Green Columbus. Okay. Um, that is a local nonprofit working on tree canopy coverage, um, which is arguably like out of my scope of reference, but that's why I love it. I think there's just so much synergy between those efforts, like on-the-ground plantings and helping to increase our tree canopy coverage with helping our local businesses in our communities. And we were just talking before this about like schools. They don't only need help in the facilities inside of the walls. They also need trees outside of the school to create that cooling effect. So our solutions don't come in one size. And I think I've just loved getting involved and watching other people get involved and show up and just be willing to put— get their hands dirty, but yeah, to help out. Yeah. Yes. So working with all the different champions is amazing too, because it seems like that's the case when you go to volunteer organizations is you're finding the people that are excited about different things. They may have different expertise and backgrounds, but they're drawn to be champions for this sustainability. And it's applicable to all. Very broad, broad topic of sustainability. And I actually, I'm going to add something and then I'm going to ask you the same question. Sure. Before you get to your next question. So, I want to know why this community means something to you too. But I was also going to add, like, this is my home. I've been very lucky to grow up here, and I think part of me, because my parents didn't grow up here, and they made quite a big effort to get my nuclear family to the States. And I think I've always looked at, like, I want to give back to the communities that have been so amazing to us. And I don't take for granted. All the things that we have that, um, I know my parents worked very hard for us to have access to. But, okay, what does it mean to you? So what it means to me, uh, I grew up in Columbus, Ohio. Uh, so it's my hometown, uh, born and raised. And I moved to Boston. I never thought I would move to Massachusetts, but an opportunity brought me there. Uh, I got an opportunity to, to work at Harvard University, and that opportunity exposed me to essentially what we're talking about, how sustainability is much bigger than what some may think. And so, I had the opportunity to work inside the university with different capital projects, but also learn from professors from different programs that help you understand what chemicals have the impacts they have. And so, and I also was able to finish a degree there in environmental studies. So, that kind of broadened my perspective. So, coming back to Columbus kind of sparked my mind around How can I help the community? So connecting with you got me excited about being involved with the community and seeing how the relationships are built and the value of them. So that's really what excited me is about coming back to Columbus and being able to get connected with people that are excited about sustainability and just being part of that growth of making it more of an impact. Than a concept. Yeah, I love that. And I feel very similar. I think that is a similar mindset I had where it was like I was in these classrooms while, you know, Ohio State is within the city. Yeah. But I feel like I was in the classroom getting my, my mind opened to how progressive some companies are. Yeah. And how they're navigating some regulation in another, other cities. And then I feel like I would go out the doors. Yeah. Of my classroom and be like, well, why isn't this happening in our city? Like, why isn't this happening at the local level? Um, so I'm very glad that you're here doing this stuff and that you're bringing that perspective. 'Cause I think we need people who've seen it to help us figure out how to build that roadmap, which is very much what I get excited about is the how. Like once we decide why, that's when I get excited about, 'cause it's like, how do we get there? Yeah, you're right. And that's kind of the, the reason that I desired to build this podcast is because I wanted to hear other stories. When people hear a little bit more They're able to understand it. Well, I can apply this to my house, my everyday. So it's, it's— we, we undervalue explaining stuff. Yeah, exactly. Which, speaking of, you did mention carbon finding. Yes. Can you, I don't know, for listeners, can you explain like an example of what that would look like here? Yeah. So essentially, uh, for commercial buildings, and this happens in Boston as well, and then all over the East Coast, Columbus is building a requirement. I don't wanna scare people away with that cuz The start is we have to understand how much energy we're using, whether it's a commercial building or even a residence. If you're looking at your utility bill and your utility bill, your electric bill is $500, $600, you're going to be like, whoa, what, what is going on? What am I using? But what happens on the commercial side is often the people that are looking at the bills are just paying them and going about their, their workday. A lot of buildings are using way more energy than they should. So what they're doing in New York is report the amount of energy you're using, so it's public. And then every 5 years you're gonna be evaluated if you're using more than it's expected. So that's happening in Boston as well. There's more aggressive things happening in California, but that's kind of pushing commercial buildings, organizations to pay attention. 'Cause if you get a fine, you're gonna think, okay, look, what can I do? Yeah. But at the same time, it's helping them reduce their energy because your operational cost is going to go down. It's not just fining you, it's, it's helping you save money on your long term. So, yeah, it's, it's in our best interest. Like it, it, yes. And I think it's also the fact that it's rooted in like a deep understanding of what has worked elsewhere. Um, some of that requires some trust in like the, in the system, which, you know, depends on the day I feel about that. But, um, That also reminded me that I remember talking to people about that at one point in time, 'cause I used to work as an energy engineer for, um, a particular organization that helped schools. Mm-hmm. So they would go in and retrofit the school system. Yeah. Um, but I remember talking about it and being like, if you think about a classroom and how much the classroom has not changed in like 50, even like 100 years. Yeah. Like just thinking about the desks with like a little table attached to them and— Yeah. You know, so many parts of our school system is just like kind of frozen in time. Um, think about the mechanical room, like people who just don't see those parts. You are very, very familiar with the parts of the building, but most people don't think about like their air handlers and the things that are moving the air around, um, in school and then the mechanical system. And so when you, when you think about the spaces you do see and realize how much they're not like improved and assessed, and then you can really start thinking about like, oh my gosh, the difference in the challenges, long-term thinking versus short-term immediate cost. Everyone's thinking, oh, that's going to cost a whole lot. But over the course of 10, 15 years, you're going to recover all that cost. And then you're going to be saving money going down the line. So it's the long-term thinking that's missing. And sometimes it's budget constraints. What I do is helping organizations see that long-term. So then when they present it to their CFO, yes, this costs X, but we're going to save, we're going to recover the ROI in 5 years. 10 years, we're gonna save this much money over the course of its lifespan. So those conversations are a little bit more detailed and technical, but like you said, the education and the awareness is what opens up the conversation. And then you start diving into a program that you can then implement it and be successful. Yeah. And sustainability is supposed to be like, I mean, convenient. It's supposed to be smart. Like it's, it's, if, if we do design the systems well with all things in mind, including the environment, then like we should be looking at convenient, smart, well-running systems. Some people get caught up thinking sustainability might be in line with inconvenience, but I disagree. Yeah. Yeah. And some of the certification programs can be a headache at times trying to figure out how you achieve a goal, but then you have to spend more hours and time is money. So there's a lot of people that have bad experiences with pursuing sustainability certifications. Yeah, absolutely. Um, and that's fair for them to feel that way, but to be able to understand or hire a team that understands how to maneuver the process, that's experienced to help understand the value, because they're not handing over a building, here you go, good luck. It's, it's, you have to educate the person that's maintaining that facilities manager is gonna be operating for years to come. You can have knowledge about something, but if you don't have understanding about how to implement it, it becomes a a challenge. Yeah, for sure. So, I can go on and on about this, but back to you. So, when you first engage an organization, what are the signs that they're truly ready for change versus simply interested in talking about it? I think we could probably talk about a few different use cases and get into the specifics, which I'd love to do. So, you give me like specific examples, I mean, I'd love to like run with that. But I think at the heart of it, Um, when organizations know their why, when they know why they're doing something and what they're running towards. So, like what you just said, like a certification, for example, like we want to hit this certain mile marker. Yeah. That, and then what they're asking is, how do I get there? Like, build me the map and sometimes build me the whole system that then follows the map. Um, that is, I think, my sweet spot. And where I get most excited to work with organizations. Some don't know their why, and it, it can be different, you know, navigating that. But when you know, like, hey, we are trying to achieve this thing, or we really want to implement, we want to see this part of our operation just get better. Like, we, we can tell this is where our opportunity for improvement lives, but we don't really know, like, why. Or, like, our energy system isn't working that well. That's just not my specialty area, but that's a good example. Um, so yeah, I think when they know their why and they want to ask how, that is, that is the ideal sweet spot. Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. Cause the, the idea of achieving a PLAC certification just to have it in the front, it doesn't do much. Um, and if there's no depth to, like you said, the why, you're not going to get any motivation. In some cases. It's our job to help motivate, but again, back to the champion piece, there has to be someone that sparks some excitement in those conversations. Yeah, I had a, I had a call today with an organization, for example, that wants a certification, like that is their ultimate motivator for having some of these conversations. Yeah. And that's helpful as like a guidepost. Yeah. But on our call, I was asking some more questions. Yeah. And they were illuminating, they have a green team, they haven't really been active, they don't really know how to get involved. They'd love to like walk the process a little bit. And what I heard there was like, okay, our goalpost is this certification, but there is another problem in the organization, which is people don't really feel like they have autonomy and agency in, in helping, but they want to. Yeah. And so we're going to look for ways to engage them as we move the organization towards that goal. Yeah. And then hopefully leave behind not only champions who honestly are already there. I can't take credit for them. Yeah. But they'll be like educated, engaged, and have a clear action plan. Yeah. Yeah. To be able to have something that they can take and like, okay, I can confidently implement this. And, um, that's a, that's of great value. Uh, cuz people don't want just, uh, I, I often see, um, in my space of energy auditing and, and, and energy assessments, I've run into plenty of clients over my career. To where they have an energy audit and it's stored on the shelf, the full report. They don't know how to do anything with it. So it's like, oh yeah, we had an energy audit a couple years ago, or we had this done, but there's this big report with all this detail and they have, they don't know what to do. Like, gimme the high-level summary on, tell me what I can do. So that's always been a pet peeve of mine is I don't want to give someone a stack of papers and say, here you go, now pay me so I can go on to my next job. Yeah. It doesn't do anything for an organization if they have the people that can actually take that information and execute. So helping educate, it's not that they don't know, it's like they don't understand. It's not their space, area of expertise. So it, it's fair to not understand something. It's how are we working together to build, um, value and execute, um, impact. Yeah. And that was one of the first things I did with my business that I wanted to be different was, um, so I started off doing waste auditing. As a way to find something tangible to measure, assess, and like report on, which is kind of like neck and neck with energy auditing in terms of like the process. You measure, you put some data together, and then you storytell and depend on report. The process is different. But when I was building our waste reports, I came from an engineering background where you can relate. A lot of those reports are very highly technical. They're for specialized eyes. Yeah, they can be hard to digest. There's a lot of words. And so when we built our waste report, I was very adamant that like anybody could look at it and be like, oh, interesting, this is our footprint. Yeah, that's what we should do next. And so ours is like very colorful and infographic heavy and graph heavy. Like it's just showing you information and delivered in a visual way and it's actually delivered on like an iPad. So if you can imagine like we're having a conversation with someone we don't have like a document that's like stapled together. We instead have an iPad where we're swiping through the slides. Yeah. Of like, here's a picture of your output. So, yeah. Uh, that was something that I, I always wanted it to be like, I imagined they would like print it and put it on the wall versus putting it in a drawer. Yeah. Because if that's on your wall, then everybody is going to like engage with it, think about it. It's gonna be an active thing. I had schools put those slides on like their screens and the TVs, like in the cafeteria. And they should be engaging enough that you might want to steal a few of those and like put them somewhere where we're going to think about them. Yeah. And you think about this from a, uh, at your own house, at your own home. Yeah. You got to make it very, very personal in many cases. So finding a way to put it in a format that people can be reminded and then they can implement it. So. It's all part of the success. So how do you build credibility with stakeholders who may have competing priorities, limited resources, or skepticism about sustainability initiatives? This is a question that I think is a very— can be a challenging one, you know, especially a lot of organizations, not just nonprofits, but all organizations have those limited resources or they can't access some of the resources? Yeah, that's a really good question. I'm sure everybody can relate to the fact that like that is the crux of a lot of reasons why things don't succeed or don't grow. Yeah. Those are just real constraints out there in the world, especially right now in sustainability. Yeah. Just like real problems we're facing. But I think from my standpoint as a consultant, I got like two points of view on this. One, I think like magic silver bullet is just listening. Yeah, like, yeah, I, I will hear people out in terms of like, like, I love to ask questions. And so, uh, I'm sure you can relate to that too as a consultant. A lot of our job is just asking good questions. Yeah. Um, and so understanding why is capacity an issue, why are resources limited, why don't you have what you need to succeed, what is taking priority over this. Yeah. And doesn't mean in a bad way, it doesn't mean I'm trying to change your mind about it, but help me understand What is your priority right now? So that I can either figure out how we can connect those things. Mm-hmm. So then sustainability's also a priority. Yeah. Um, or so for example, like I think like a healthcare system, like safety. Yeah. And, and like the health of patients is like the number one priority. Mm-hmm. And so how can sustainability play well? Yeah. With aligning with those goals, or where can we get quick wins that are in line with your priorities? I think that's one big thing is just listening to What is top of your list right now and how can we work together to figure out how these can play well? And then the other thing I was gonna say is, um, a lot of my clients come to me because of these issues. Yeah. Um, and so I think about like cities and nonprofits and, um, like Solid Waste Authorities, for example. Mm-hmm. These groups that have big missions, limited teams. Yeah. A lot of times they come to me and this is kind of the program design build part of my business. But they'll come to me being like, we are building this program because we're mandated to, or because we got funding to. So we have the go-ahead, but we only have so many people and we're all mission-driven, but we're just so limited. Yeah. And so what I help them do is figure out like, what are you trying to accomplish? Yeah. What is the system that's going to get there? Yeah. And then how can we build the program to be limited time on your plate? And so that's where just like Green Scope thrives, I think, is building that. Like, we will like really build the technology behind their operation. Yeah. To make that work. That's a very critical point. I always go back to the reports and as an energy efficiency consultant, yes, it's good to have the reports and the outlines of where your building's at and the baseline. But if you're not giving them the tools of understanding how to check it on their own, how to stay on top of checking how the chiller is running, how the boiler is running, Giving them processes that they can use and then check. That is where it's kind of the sweet spot for building an organization's success is on the inside, not the outside, handing them great-looking detailed reports. But yeah, I like that because it's something that adds value that they at least have something inside they started or they can progress with their team and it's not dependent on that consultant coming Yeah. And guidance only goes so far. I love to give guidance and expertise. A lot of times that's what people are looking for, but I mean, the actual, like, carrying that forward and how it works in your organization, that, that's hard to build. Yeah. Yeah. And especially if you don't have anyone inside that, maybe you have a champion that just doesn't have the resources. I've been in an organization and yes, I have some expertise, but I still need someone to throw ideas off or check what I'm doing. It can't be a single-person movement. It has to have resource support, whether you hire the help or you have a consultant help. The only way for an organization to progress forward. Yeah, you're busy doing your job. You don't have time to rebuild your own job. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I've also worked with teams too, where the missing piece is actually just visibility into what everyone's doing. And so I've brought in some folks together that are collaborating on one program. And then built a system for them where they can actually see each other's progress. Mm-hmm. And then they find they actually can collaborate better. They can take breaks, like they can each kind of take off. Yeah. Which we deserve to do. Um, and, and the progress is still being tracked and, and whatnot. So, yeah. Too many sustainability programs are, I think sometimes just happening in the dark. Yeah. Yeah. Especially with certifications in some cases. Again, back to the building side, if an, if an architect and an engineer are designing a building to meet a certification. Once they hand that off to the building owner, if they're not involved to understand and how to progress over time, then they're just handing them, you know, hey, our design meets the standards and here's your plaque. But again, the occupant has to then carry all of that through because ROI isn't going to be successful. So I'm a big advocate for helping that organization understand a process for their employees than just telling them how to do it. So, yeah. Yeah. So, if it was, if it was that simple, then it would already be done. Yeah. Like, I think that's also something that I want to come in organizations and talk about is I'm like, not a silver bullet. Like, you've been working hard for a long time and this is complicated. Yeah. It doesn't mean it's impossible. It doesn't mean it's hard, actually, but it is, it is worth understanding. Absolutely. So going into kind of program management, sustainability goals are, are becoming more common, but implementation sometimes can fall short. And I think we just discussed why. But any other, any other examples or things you see happen on why some sustainability efforts fall short? I think. Why they might not, um, reach their full potential. Yeah. Might be because people do think it is set in, forget it, which we were just talking about. But I think the idea that like, oh, Marcus told me that in 5 years this is gonna pay off, great. I'm gonna go turn around and look at something else now. Like, now that thing is handled. Yeah. I think that with any operational task and like especially thinking about a building or a facility, it requires maintenance and it requires just a continuous improvement and the mindset around continuous improvement, which I think is also like a tiring aspect of sustainability, is that like if you really follow sustainability, yeah, the like goalpost kind of moves. Yeah. And then moves again and then moves again. And a good example of that is just like, I mean, especially with resource management, like when we're thinking about like recycling, Like the, where your material literally goes and what happens to it depends on markets and depends on like the ways our commodities are shared and the way our economy is set up. Like it depends what it's going to turn into in terms of what's going to happen to it. And so the idea that like really understanding sustainability means continuous improvement and keeping— so I think people do want set it and forget it, silver bullet magic answer. Yeah. And when you really care about impact and output, it means you're gonna follow that thing through. Mm-hmm. And you're gonna see how, how it's performing over time. Yeah. So, just being willing to look at things more than once and be like, okay, how's it going? Yeah. What should we change? What should we not change? Mm-hmm. So, not a bad thing, but just a, a mindset shift, I think. Yeah. Yeah. And also ownership. You, you mentioned champions, like who in the organization is owning Yes. And who is going to either volunteer to take ownership or be okay with taking ownership? Because you can delegate and people might be like, I really didn't want to do that anyway. So, there's a possibility you could fall short. But again, back to the champion piece, it has to be someone that is actually excited about the value that sustainable programs can bring to the organization. Yeah. And we've all seen groupthink, not work, you know? Like, I think sustainability is just not different than other things in our lives. Like, when you're planning a trip with friends, yeah, if nobody is in charge, it's not happening. You are never getting on that airplane. Yeah, yeah. And so I thought you were going to take— no, I thought you were. But it's the same thing with sustainability. It's like we're, we're all collaborating and we have our role to play, but we need to be clear on whose role is what. And so just having someone who says like, yes, I am going to be the one just keeping up with all of us on this, or I'm going to be checking on this or taking responsibility. But I think we need to remember that it's just like any other action in our lives. It is. It is. I love that how, you know, all these efforts and suggestions, they're not too hard to achieve. It's think about it in your own life. It's a concept that, you know, to have a successful household, whether you have kids, you're married, there's something that you have to do to sustain happiness. So it's applicable everywhere. Yeah, I think that's definitely a reason sustainability does not exceed— does not succeed more often than not. Yeah, I think is rooted in groupthink and this idea of volunteerism, which it is, is great that people want to volunteer and want to shepherd these activities, but it needs to be somebody's role. It needs to be somebody's responsibility to continue to keep up with it. Yeah, absolutely agree. Absolutely agree. We can, we can go on and on for some, from so many of these topics. But we'll have, maybe we'll have to do a part 2 because there's so many things that I've put on the sheets to cover, but, but I love where this is going. I hope I'm not straying too much. No, you're good. You're good. We'll just, we'll just maneuver and see where we go. Walk us through a sustainability program and you have already a little bit, but walk us through a sustainability program you're particularly proud of that is kind of pulled from everything that we just talked about, if you can think of one. I think one running project, and then I can maybe echo over to a similarly running project that's a different kind of scope of service. Okay. But one project I'm really proud of right now that is currently running in the Columbus area is, uh, just because this is a, you know, local— yeah, yeah— session of your podcast. Um, but, uh, I'm getting to support the energy audit program that the Columbus Regional Green Fund is running. And so, you know, bird's eye view, Department of Energy allocated funding that the City of Columbus is running with, and it is being managed by the Columbus Regional Green Fund, which is a local green bank. Which is important for improvements of the things we're talking about. For example, like when you want to make a big change in your organization, but what you lack is just some of that, like loans and the financing side of things to really make that first investment to then see your ROI. Green banks are, are built for this. They are banks specialized in making sustainability improvements happen. And I can't take credit for their existence. I would love to connect anybody with one. If it's an organization, they want to learn more about their green bank. But this— just a side note to this. So I worked at— when I worked at Harvard University, it was something called the Green Fund. It's a similar thing to where there's a pile of money that essentially say, hey, we have these initiatives. Can we borrow from this Green Fund? You borrow from it, you pay it back, and then that Green Fund grows because it's quickly being paid back. And then any initiatives on campus can pull from those dollars to implement those. Yeah, perfect. Perfect. Thank you for that. And what's great about that too is you're not just navigating a traditional bank where you have to make the case for why this matters. You are ideally dealing with a group that already is willing to champion the same concepts that you are. Yeah. So you have a lot of like-minded folks. So this energy audit program is basically giving out free energy audits to facilities within the City of Columbus region. There are some building requirements around size and purpose and whatnot, but the idea is that we have helped them to build the architecture and run the program to make this possible. Like, that's an idea. We should, we should do that. But then it's like, how does that work? How do they apply? How do they get verified? What is the process they go through? What happens afterwards? How do we measure success? How do we keep track of feedback? Yeah. So that is where Green School has jumped in. It's like building and designing the program to be successful, knowing the why. The why is to offer energy audits and to inform our local building standards. Yeah. And so that has been a really great project to be part of. And then kind of a similar mirror program on the waste side of the conversation is that solid waste authorities get instructions from their, their EPA. And so they have to build certain programs to support schools, businesses, whatnot. And I've been able to help a few solid waste authorities in actually building the architecture of their systems so they can support schools and businesses. And one that I'm proud of in the Central Ohio area is SWACO's Champions programs. Okay, so, um, people can just go online and like and say, I want to become a champion, and SWACO will actually provide them with free bins and hauling services for recycling and composting, which is like a silver bullet of like Perfect, easy, let us support you. So anybody in Central Ohio who wants to engage in either energy or waste practices, we have some really great systems that exist. Nice. Love it. I love it. So really kind of closing out here, again, amazing conversation, but what gives you hope about the future of sustainability in Ohio and beyond? I think I'm excited by the collaboration that's happening and the ways people are testing new things and being willing to share about them. I think we have to be willing to listen. Yeah, frankly, like, I think we need to look around at what's already been done and read from the learnings that have already happened. If I was to kind of put a call of what I want to see more of. Yeah, but I think people are doing a really great job of putting information out there and like publishing case studies and measuring their success. And I'm very proud to be part of that when I can be. But people, I think, have that mindset of like, let's not only try something, let's measure it and share it. And I think we, if we could do a better job of, of listening to each other and looking for what else has already been done, we might, we might be able to make bigger leaps. And I'm, and yeah, we have some leaps to make for sure here soon. That's good. That's good. And you mentioned Green Columbus. How are you seeing the progress of organization efforts like that? Yeah, that's a good question. I think, I think for me, something that comes up is that I think in the wake of our world right now where things can feel at times a little scary, a little confusing, hence the Clear Haze Exchange, um, but when we need a little more like, where do I fit into this, or like, what's going on really, yeah, um, I have seen a lot of people showing up and willing to take action on a local level of like, okay, my phone is scary, or the world feels scary, but like, what's happening around me and how can I be part of it? I have seen people like jump into that personally more so than in previous years. Okay. And I, I think Green Columbus is a good example because they host volunteer events. So you come out and like literally plant trees, plant gardens. You request tools to do a litter cleanup in your neighborhood. Mm-hmm. They're just there to help you succeed as an active community member. And I think I've seen people like seeking ways to be active. Yeah. And I, I just love that. Yeah, that's good. Well, Dominique, I think, uh, this has been an excellent conversation. Um, I wanna thank you and I wanna be sure the, uh, guests on there listening, be sure to check out the Green Champions podcast. Tell us a little bit about that podcast before we go. Yeah. Green Champions showcases people who have championed sustainability across any industry. So anybody who has brought to life a successful sustainability program. Yeah. We unpack who they are, how they did it, and what we can learn from them. Um, and it is very fun and we get lots of amazing people, including Marcus. He'll be on the podcast here soon, the end of this year. So looking forward to it. If you're only invested in hearing Marcus's voice, I can guarantee there's at least gonna be 2 episodes in the Green Champions lineup that will have his voice. Nice. Nice. Well, I appreciate your time, um, in sharing your knowledge and your journey through this, um, exciting, uh, sustainability world. Is different areas and the value that it brings both to business and also to community, but also we mentioned in our personal lives. A lot of these strategies that you've mentioned aren't too complicated to figure out. It's just a matter of finding a champion or the champion in yourself to understand the value and implement it. But it's cleared the haze around program management, especially the value of what you do for organizations. So Again, great conversation. Thanks for having me and for sharing my wavelength. I think it, it's really awesome. I love that you have this podcast and that you're demystifying so many different topics. I think that is so needed, um, in our world and to make this stuff feel real and to really talk about it. Um, I put a lot of effort and energy into like creating these stories for us. Yeah. So I'm very appreciative. Uh, I'm sure listeners are too, but Yeah, thanks for chatting. This is fun. Great. Great. Well, looking forward to getting involved with your podcast and, uh, hopefully the audience enjoyed this conversation and we will catch you on the next episode. Thanks for listening to Clear Haze Exchange. New episodes drop every 2 weeks. You can catch Clear Haze Exchange on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Pandora, iHeartRadio, and more. Let's clear the haze about sustainability and energy efficiency. Efficiency together. Subscribe now and join the conversation.