Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
It's the new year and some of you may have returned to work, looked around, looked at your desk and thought "I don't want to be here anymore!" or perhaps you're beginning your job search for the first time.
Curated content, insights and opportunities to accelerate your career in Architecture, Design, Development and Real Estate to the next level.
Finding Your Dream Job_ ft_ Justin Nicholls at Fathom Architects
===
[00:00:00]
Stephen Drew: Oh my gosh, it's the new year! 2024. Let's do it! Maybe you're thinking about that dream job! You're fed up where you are. You look around and you don't want to be there. Don't worry. We got you covered. Or maybe you're a student. Don't worry. We're going to go through it all in 20 seconds.
Hello everyone. And welcome to this live stream special. It's 2024 and we're kicking it off with a bang. I can't remember half of what I'm [00:01:00] doing on the podcast and the buttons. But we'll get through it anyways. And on that note, what's the topic? Okay. Maybe you're in your job. Maybe you're looking for a job and we're at that point.
You got to think, where do I go? What do I do? So together, we're going to unpack how to find your dream job. And it's, you fed up in 2023, listening to me ramble onto it. So we've got an industry expert here, a very good architecture practice. But also someone that I met. Randomly, at the Bartlett one day, true story.
However, on that note, I should probably introduce who I'm with. I'm with the fantastic Justin Nichols from Fab Architects. Justin, how are you today?
Justin at Fathom Architects: Evening, everybody. Very well. Thank you. I'm loving the intro. I'm loving the colors.
Stephen Drew: We gotta get, we gotta get there. Apparently, it's Blue Monday at the time of recording this, isn't it? I'm, coincidence I'm wearing blue. But, for any, for anyone out there, we're gonna cheer them up. Now, Justin. I, I know you, [00:02:00] and I said a little bit about yourself, just tell us briefly before we go into it, who you are really.
Justin at Fathom Architects: Yeah. Yeah. So my name is Justin Nichols. Architect. Set up Fathom in 2016. Studied at Bath University, Royal College of Art. Worked at Norman Foster's office for 11 years. Helped set up Make following that for another 11 years. And then went out on our own.
Stephen Drew: Oh, and you've done some very nice projects. I brought up the website and we can quit for our audio listeners is fathomarchitects. com F A T H O M. But you should check out all the cool stuff there. So you went you were in the industry. I'm sure you applied for a few jobs back then.
You mentioned that, you worked in a few places, but also you set up your practice. So you've been the job seeker, but you've also been the hiring manager, right? And you've seen a lot of CVs, which grab your attention. And perhaps one that get lost in the inbox. Would that be fair to
Justin at Fathom Architects: I, I, absolutely. And I think it's really [00:03:00] interesting as soon as you flip across the other side of the fence to start reading CVs compared to when you interviewed. That said, I've only ever had two jobs not a huge amount of experience there. So if anybody gets the chance to join an interview in their office for, if you're recruiting, more junior members of staff, I knew that was a golden opportunity to learn.
Stephen Drew: Yeah, I agree. Now I will bring up more of your beautiful projects and websites first, but maybe I'm just looking here. We wanted to talk, first of all, you've done a few of the you've thought about this before. You've spent a bit of time, unlike me, doing this, and we were going to talk about what is your dream practice?
So do you want to, first of all, you mentioned you did a little bit of a talk about this before, and you started off with. What is your dream practice? But first of all, what do you mean by that? What is a dream practice in architecture?
Justin at Fathom Architects: I think it's interesting as you're going through everyone's CVs and do quite a lot of part three examining and you listen to people doing their career appraisals and so forth. I never actually have a conversation about find the right job [00:04:00] for you. It's always a conversation. I need a job and I need it quite quick.
What's the quickest way to that end result? And I think it's a slightly longer. Game to play. There was when the financial crash in 2000, I don't know, four or five. There was a lady I interviewed for part three and she wanted to work with a very famous laboratory planner. I said, couldn't get an architecture job for love, no money.
And she went. out of the way and work with a technician's practice moving bits of walls around in a very large hospital in central London. And from that she built her CV up and then within two or three years she got that dream job with that lab planner that she really wanted. Now that was a really good lesson in, in a time of adversity to find your way and think your way through a problem and you're playing a slightly longer game than just your next job.
Yeah,
Stephen Drew: Mind you, when you're doing it, and at the time it's really hard, in my opinion, to think it's easy sometimes for me and you to [00:05:00] say it, but when you're there, it gets a bit more difficult. And one of the things that you mentioned is. The question of what inspires you now, I struggle to answer this even now, sometimes, and I know you mentioned you a little bit.
So first of all, what inspires you and then you could do anything with tips for anyone about working out what inspires them maybe.
Justin at Fathom Architects: I guess I was quite lucky. I realized I wanted to be an architect somewhere around about 13, 14 years old. So I've never had that problem. I don't know what I'd like to do. And I grew up in Cornwall. There's not a huge amount of modern buildings in Cornwall. My French textbook, there was a little black and white photo and it was the Pompidou Centre at the time.
And I thought, that's what I want to do. So I went to the local bookshop, this guy called Richard Rogers, don't know who he is, can you send me my book? Bookshop guy was over the moon and read that to death. And in there, there was a book there was a little, A building called Creek Veen that Richard Rogers and Norman Foster designed in Cornwall.
It was literally around the corner from my school. I went and [00:06:00] knocked on the door and had a wander around and that sort of cemented that future. So I was very clear on that. My other options are probably product design or graphic design, if I was being honest. Yeah.
Stephen Drew: Yeah, I, yeah, it was one way for the other for me. Mind you, I deviated from the path, so maybe I'm not the best example on that. I'm gonna quick mini tansion on that, right? Because one thing, we all know why we, I still like being involved in the architecture industry. Where I'm going with this though, architecture inspires you.
I like Cedric Price, you talked about Richard, right? You got these things you like, but then you went to the industry. Okay, and then how do you then work what inspires you and then because maybe I'm a part one, like I just get put onto a residential scheme. Maybe you talked about labs earlier.
How do you then work out what inspires you in your opinion?
Justin at Fathom Architects: I think, it was tricky. It was a very long time ago in the early 90s recession, so I couldn't find a job for loving the money. Went cold calling around various practices didn't get a job, went back to work in the pub I'd been [00:07:00] in since I was about 14 and then went travelling, and that was a really good move.
Me and a friend, we traveled 6, 000 miles around the state in a 250 car and saw all the Louis Kahn and Frank Lloyd Wright buildings and got inside quite a few little houses and things. So you're supplementing that. So I think by the time you're applied for the job you really want, you've got that background, that proper CV and that depth of knowledge of what you want to do.
So the following year I got a job at. Norman Foster. So I went right from zero to the kind of other end of the spectrum in 12 months, which I thought was a bit weird, to be honest. That's how the market works, isn't it?
Stephen Drew: So yeah, it's some, it can go either way. You're right. There's the ideal scenario and and, but you, the market does change and the markets are slanted, but you're right. Demand changes all the time in practices. Like for example, last year I'm sure everyone's seen the Neom adverts everywhere, but anything towards the Red Sea, any architecture practice in that was booming.
[00:08:00] Perhaps education wasn't doing quite as well in the UK because of all the legislation. So things changed, isn't it, over that I wanted to build upon that though, cause you, it touches on which practice is most aligned to your approach for design. How do you work that out though?
Is it still experimenting with it a bit or what do you think?
Justin at Fathom Architects: I think for people, if you have a particular interest in types of buildings or locations of buildings, and I think it's drilling into that a bit more, actually go visit buildings, don't look at it on Instagram, go and see it and feel it and live it and that starts to build the motivation then, and people see that in the way you write your Covering letters, your CVs, your portfolio, and, going back to the lady that worked in the hospital, doing FM stuff, that's a perfect example of just having the will to keep going because you had an end goal.
So I think if you don't know what kind of projects you'd like to design or what buildings you're interested in, that's probably something that, [00:09:00] you know, definitely at university and, post university as well can really work on.
Stephen Drew: Yeah. Okay. I would love to get your thoughts on this because I say sometimes part one, you go to a big practice and maybe there's a demand on the commercial team and you get put on there or residential. And sometimes I think people beat themselves up about that. And I always say, don't worry too much in your part one, because you can correct that.
It just gets harder further in your career, but part one and part two. I think you can experiment with a bit, just to work out what you like and what you don't like. But what do you think?
Justin at Fathom Architects: Completely. I think thinking it through and then just relaxing a bit. So I'm just going to give that a go. It's not, I'm not, it's a job I'm not signing up for. It's not the thing I'm going to do for the rest of my career. And the more you, I think you can jump around and test different scales of practice, types of work, different types of boss, that's also a tricky one.
And I had a lovely colleague I worked with for years and she was, she never wanted to work on a project unless she'd started at the beginning. [00:10:00] And by the time you get to I don't guess it's like associate level, it's if you've never delivered something, you're then not going to have the skills to to take that project all the way through.
Just feel free to dip in. We've had other people I just, I'm a designer with a capsule D and therefore I, I don't think I should be doing the core of an office building. It's no, that's absolutely what you must do, because that's, it's quite pragmatic, but it's got all the nuts and bolts of a building in it.
And once you've done one, you can switch off then for the rest of your career. And if you don't do it, you'll never really understand it. Don't do, get your hands dirty and don't worry too much.
Stephen Drew: Yeah, I'll just add to that before we go to the next point. I do agree, especially from the recruitment side, most architectural practices, really, I think all round experience is vitally important. I very rarely get a brief which is full on design. Much, even though that's the demand of maybe a lot of people looking, they go, I'm sure they've worked on a slug of a project and they go, you know what, I want to work on a design orientated thing.
However, they very much feed into each [00:11:00] other. The opposite I've seen though, is I can see there is a niche sometimes for a very technical person who perhaps goes, you know what, that's my bag. But do you think it's the same, that it tends to be all around experience then is valuable?
Justin at Fathom Architects: I think the technical thing, no, the technical is really interesting. I think as one career evolves, you have to be really honest about what you're good at and not good at. And don't beat yourself up about it. Things you're not good at and then sell, to your potential employees, employers the thing that you are good at.
A very good friend of mine used to say, Justin, why do you always pick things that you're not very good at? It's because I want to learn. It's yeah, but you're making life hard for yourself. So I think it's do the best with the skills you've, you're good at, but then also make sure you're working a little bit on the weaknesses so that they're not going to hold you back later.
Stephen Drew: Yeah, no I'd agree with that, I do want to add, there is an art to being good at technical, I think that's the unsung hero sometimes, we can put put an emphasis on the design, but really it's about [00:12:00] realizing the design, which is just as important,
Justin at Fathom Architects: and they're quite different parts of the mind as well, and that's the weird thing about being an architect You've got to jump between all of those things at the same time And I'm on my first project architect role on a job at Oxford, and you can meet these ladies that would be, Head librarian, you just talk very nicely and very quietly And then 20 minutes later you'd be out on site showing a load of Geordie steelwork contractors It's I feel really, it's like what's going on in my mind?
Too much to cope with But yes, you've got to wear a lot of hats.
Stephen Drew: Yeah very true. Now, before I jumped into that, and you have to forgive me, it's the first podcast back 2024, I get excited about stuff. You touched upon working for bosses, different, different environments, different cultures, different work ethics. For anyone that's not familiar with that term, what do we mean when we talk about the culture of a practice or a studio?
Justin at Fathom Architects: I think it probably starts with values. What's the practice trying to achieve and what's it about? And what are you about? And I read [00:13:00] something really good the other day. It's like you operate in the overlap between what your practice is about and what you're about. And what tends to happen is we concentrate on the fringe bits where the kind of friction is, whereas actually we should be concentrating on the bits in the middle of, the sort of common goals.
Actually, around that sort of recession time doing part three interviews, it's quite interesting where up until sort of 2004, people said, I want to work, I want to do really complex geometry buildings, I want to pay 60 grand straight out of college. And then a year and a half later, it's I just want to design houses that people can afford to live in.
Just think about that kind of ebb and flow and what you want to achieve.
Stephen Drew: That make, that makes sense. And there are a lot of different cultures of architecture practices. And I think that there's many different ways. There's no rule of thumb. However, we have to just be open about the industry. And while I think it's progressed. There are certain different environments, certain different
Justin at Fathom Architects: But of course, it could be the type of projects you work on. It could be the types of clients you [00:14:00] work for. That makes a huge difference. If you have, a nice group of clients, it makes life a lot easier. They're aligned with what we're trying to do, and then that aligns with people employed.
Also, I think if you're If you go and work somewhere that's not really aligned to what you do, it probably won't work very well. It won't work for you and it won't work for the employee. So that's why I think having that, just trying to have a bit more of a vision for what you want in that sort of, mid term helps guide your short term decisions.
Stephen Drew: Fair point. We have a little bit. So there's a question from the audience that came in, which I I struggle to answer, but it's a nice question. I don't know where to begin with it. Maybe Justin, you might have a bit more luck with it. Miguel says, hi there, in an architecture practice, how much is design and how much is planning in technical in percentages?
Maybe the Reba stages with stage zero to two to three design and the rest is technical. Justin, is there
Justin at Fathom Architects: great [00:15:00] question, Miguel. I'd say design is probably I don't know, five or ten percent of what you do in the overall delivery of a project, but if you don't have the five or ten percent, it's not worth doing the rest of it, if that makes sense. So you've got to have that kernel of an idea, and that gem of an idea, to make that other 80 percent of it.
Sing. So it's a really interesting Oxymoron, where you're that, 5 10 percent is 90 percent of your value, probably, and the other 90 percent of your time is the other way around, so it's tricky, and your technical has to feed back into your design with a capital D, it's not really, it's not design and technical, it's just one thing, and, we My father was a builder, so I'm always very conscious about how things go together.
Trained at Bath, quite technical school Foster's very similarly, very technology driven. So you're always thinking about how am I going to build this, and does it work, rather than I've come up with a great idea and then beating some poor builder up about how [00:16:00] you want to build it without any expansion joints and all the other bits and bobs.
Stephen Drew: for good. Good answer. One of my old. Directors, when I was over a part one or part two, forgive me. I, it's getting a bit, it's getting a bit hazy, but yeah, he said something similar, like 10 percent of the project is design and 90 percent of the project is defending the design. That was what he said, but long time ago, I was, thank you, Miguel, first of all.
For the first question of 2024, I really appreciate it. We've got a few more questions here, which I could pretend and say that I did, but you did them as well. And we touched a bit about the values, but I want to reiterate, I do think that it's very important. One of the things that I feel just in this day is you can get a little bit of a read of a website.
Don't judge a book by its cover kind of thing. I think going to an interview, you get a sense of the architecture practice's character. How many people are in the office? What's the vibe? What time of the [00:17:00] day is? How many people are there? What do you think? How do you work out the values to see if they align?
Yeah. Yeah.
Justin at Fathom Architects: Tricky question that I think we, we often ask questions around fathom, we talk about, fathom is about depth of thinking, so we try and solve complicated projects in sensitive sites so we have those kind of core values of Complexity Care in terms of what we produce at the end, and Collaboration, so we quite often quite ask questions around that and see what those answers are, and you find some schools maybe are more aligned, some architectural schools teach in more of kind of things that we're interested in than others, that's quite an interesting element looking at where people have worked before is quite helpful and that sort of general kind of conversation I think really unlocks that you'd be amazed how many people don't write a proper covering letter.
I just, it's so easy. I reckon it's less than five percent,
Stephen Drew: Do you value [00:18:00] them? You value
Justin at Fathom Architects: It jumps out. It's okay, this person's said this about us, so hopefully they mean that rather than just writing because they've got to write something and that then enables you to start a conversation in an interview.
So you pick this out about us, what do you think about that?
Stephen Drew: Fair enough. I'm quite controversial, whereas I say, I think maybe I've been jaded over the years just in where you read them. Not everyone does. And I say that they're a nice to have, but make sure your CV and portfolio is there
but you value the cover letters and you do, because that's what you do when you hire and
Justin at Fathom Architects: What's the first thing you open?
Stephen Drew: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. See,
Justin at Fathom Architects: know the CV is
Stephen Drew: got to rein it in a bit because I always go covering letter. Forget it.
Justin at Fathom Architects: Don't make it too long, though, if that's the thing I would
Stephen Drew: yes, I do find that. Yeah. I've, I think covering letter or an email, it needs to be to the point and it needs to be tailored. And I always joke, maybe you agree that dear sir or madam at the start, it goes straight in the bin.
Whereas, [00:19:00] Good afternoon, Justin. I've, I've been following Fabin for a while. Congrats on the plan, winning the planning proposal.
Here's my stuff.
Justin at Fathom Architects: Yeah. It's you've got to come to the table with a bit of enthusiasm. And I think there's other things, if you've got that idea of a dream job. Go to Open House, go and visit an architecture studio in, London Architecture Festival. There, people are much more open.
Go and listen to a couple of podcasts that people from the practice are going on and imagine yourself in that environment and go, yeah, actually, that is something I'm interested in. But the scatterguns of CVs when you put an advert in is really tricky, where people are just. A completely wrong experience for the things that you're looking for.
And it's a huge waste of everybody's time and effort. I'm sure you tell people that all the time.
Stephen Drew: Partly. It's a means to an end. It's tricky, isn't it? Because for all the applicants, which Have seen the word architect and maybe have a background in IT or whatever, but you'll get that right person. Unfortunately, it does [00:20:00] happen, but it's a really good point at what you mentioned, because I think anyone's anyone that thinks that they're the only person applying for a role is quite naive.
And actually, how do you stick out when you've just deleted 10, ones that are not relevant, that's the art form really, isn't it? And that's what you're talking about.
Justin at Fathom Architects: Really hard. The other thing we try and do is visit schools of architecture and build kind of relationships there whether it's giving talks, coming to CRITs, because then you get that sort of, the applicant gets to meet you in person, you get to meet the school, you've got an idea of how that's evolving and that, that's a really effective way of trying to align values and culture, I think.
Stephen Drew: No, I hear you. I've got one or two more questions here, but before, just before we do that one bit, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this. Cause I always say to someone, I always try to make the person that's applying, imagine the role of the person in the business. What I mean is sometimes you get really busy, right?
You get distracted. You have to find, you have to look for these CVs during. All [00:21:00] different hours. And so what I say to people is sometimes it's okay to reach out direct. Sometimes it's even okay. It's okay to ring up if someone's polite and goes, Hey just checking you got my CV or portfolio. Those kinds of things can show a little bit of enthusiasm.
As long as someone's not overbearing, it's normally welcomed. Whereas I think a lot of people worry, go, Oh no. I can't bother someone. I'll give it a month. And find out what's happened. What do you think about following up or getting in contact with the
Justin at Fathom Architects: I think that's good. I think, a phone call is quite nice. We have a lovely studio manager. She's very welcoming on the phone. And, maybe the odd email here and there. Don't be spamming. It's quite tricky.
Stephen Drew: The balance, there's the sweet point. Isn't
Justin at Fathom Architects: Yeah and also timing is hugely critical, one literally one day to the next, your needs from running a practice can completely change. And this is the really hard one. And I, a lot of advice I give to people is read the news, see who's just won a competition.
Big planning application, [00:22:00] see who's just announced a big job, because they're probably going to need some people. Or if you've got the best chance of finding people at that point. And, when we say, we haven't got anything at the moment, but we might do soon, we do generally mean that.
And when we say we'll keep you, we'll keep you posted, we, we try and have a sort of a short list, a long term short list is really helpful. As well, particularly if people are, have a job they're in and they want to move, that can be quite a good route. So I can look, there's nothing at the moment, but actually in three months time, I think that could work.
And if, quite often people don't mind waiting if it's something they want.
Stephen Drew: Really good point there. The other bit I always tell people is to still apply for a job, even if it isn't posted on the website, because you never know there might be a role that isn't advertised. Do you think
Justin at Fathom Architects: The other really good one is if you've applied three years ago and you apply again, please remember that you applied the first time.[00:23:00]
Stephen Drew: Oh,
really? Oh, yeah. Yeah, you're like, yeah, you're like, come on. Was I just in F or on your list or what? Yeah. Fair enough. Do a quick check. Where you've been before
Justin at Fathom Architects: Sorry, what was your question?
Stephen Drew: no, don't worry. We got a few here. We've gone off piece, but in a, I think this really valuable stuff. We've had a few people, Miguel says, thank you.
We've had Aminta who's had a good giggle. So I'm glad that we're cheering people up. There was one thing that you said when you should look in at a company is who are they? They are a client. Sorry, my spelling there. Who are they a client? And why do you think that's good when you're looking at an architecture practice?
Because that's quite a nice little niche tip is to look at the clients if they're on the company.
Justin at Fathom Architects: To align ourselves with our clients. The cultures of our clients, and the clients sit of the tree it would be very hard to find a Sterling Prize winning building that doesn't have a really good client. Everybody in the tree needs to be working, we sit somewhere down here. So I think by looking at [00:24:00] that, you can get a feel for the kind of things that, we do, and the kind of things that how our work might evolve and if you're in practice already, you better compare that with your existing clients.
Yeah,
Stephen Drew: that popped up is where's a great place to live? How do we answer that? Especially if you're a part one coming to the
Justin at Fathom Architects: Yeah I think this is about, you need to think about lots of things about your work or what your dream job is, but also. Where is it you're going to live? I grew up in Cornwall. There's not a huge amount of job opportunities in architecture in Cornwall apart from, nice holiday homes and cow sheds. So you have to migrate. And we had some old colleagues of mine, a lot of them moved to Australia. So you see them on Instagram when it's deep cold winter like here, and they're all sitting on the beach surfing and, having fun. That, that lifestyle element is really important in terms of your kind of Overall health and being and happiness.
If you don't like living in cities, don't, you're probably not going to get on living in London. You're going to find [00:25:00] it negative. So I think those are really important. Also the practices, most, not all, a lot of practices will focus their work on the city or the place that they're based.
So those two things also kind of align. Not all practices, because a lot of people work internationally, but
Stephen Drew: Yeah. No fair point. You're right. I was, when I was part one in Wales, there wasn't as many jobs as in London. There generally is a lot more. Jobs in London. However, you make a good point. You've got to be okay with coming to the city. And I'm just going to say it out there. When we still have flexible working, gone are the days of working remote.
Like you've got to go into the practice, you've got to experience it. So you've got to know what you're signing up for. And I think you've got to commit a bit. And then the other thing I'd like to add to that. On my mini rant is that I think, especially if you're a part one or part two, you want to go into the office as possible, obviously, when you feel it's safe and, work from home, if you've caught something, but I think it's more important than ever going into the studio.
And one of the feedback that I found employers struggle with, especially [00:26:00] part one as well, it's very hard getting into architecture, doing it fully remote. But do you agree with that sentiment then, Justin,
Justin at Fathom Architects: Yeah, It's very interesting, we have a studio where we share it with a structural engineer. So we go in the offices on Mondays, Wednesdays, they go in on Tuesdays, Thursdays, and we share it on a Friday. And we did this because our lease came up halfway through lockdown and we didn't really want to get rid of the studio.
And it's worked fantastically well. So everyone, everyone comes in on a Monday morning, so you get that kind of buzz and activity, but also everyone's in at the same time. And I think the reason why a lot of. Management struggle with people working from home is because the office doesn't have that kind of buzz and vitality,
Stephen Drew: Yeah, a bit of
Justin at Fathom Architects: but so if you're all in at the same time, you get that kind of buzz and that interaction and then we're only ever working a day a week.
Without supervision, if that makes sense. So you come in on Monday, Tuesday, it's like everyone should be able to work a day on their own. You've still got Teams that you can dial in to talk to people. [00:27:00] And I think that's worked well. I do think it's probably more important for people coming.
Straight into the studio, straight out of college, and probably there more often. And I'd say probably everyone is in about what I would call two and a half days a week. Every other Friday ish, and there's other two. And we're quite an advocate of technology, so it's nice to push how much we can use technology really hard to facilitate those cultural shifts, if you like.
Stephen Drew: Yeah, fair enough. Do you know, quick mini one, I know one or two companies going back to five days a week now,
Justin at Fathom Architects: Yes, yeah, quite a few. Yeah, and we'll keep monitoring that, we'll keep doing we're just back to staff questionnaire of, all those kind of things, because, it does shift and change a bit.
Stephen Drew: Yeah, I, it's true. Let's see how it all goes. I can see where you want to be in. Sometimes I like being on teams, you have a day to sort your stuff out without being pushed and pulled. There's a benefit to the both. I think, then I there's a harmony in there when you work it out.
Just then tell me and I will copy [00:28:00] it for my business. The next thing on your list was creating a short list. You got to begin somewhere, right? What's your thoughts on how to
Part of it?
Justin at Fathom Architects: And I think it's going back to that thing of it's not just finding a job, it's finding what is it you really want to do, which might be like a five year plan or even a 10 year plan. So the shortlist is about, okay, these are the kind of places I want to end up in eventually. And I might be able to get there straight away, but I might need to go through a couple of other things.
Places before I get there and then keep those in mind as, your, those three, five, ten years evolve. Actually, that's still what I've got. And those shortlists, those are the people then you can go and listen to a talk or, go and visit their practice on an open day or, listen to a podcast or something.
I think that's quite helpful.
Stephen Drew: I think that's good. I always say, start with your dream ones, the hit list, And then
Justin at Fathom Architects: then get real. But that's fine. It's, small steps.
Stephen Drew: However, sometimes you can get caught out. Sometimes the ones, maybe not the websites or the ones you thought were immediate, you [00:29:00] go meet them and you just, you feel the spark, right?
So I think that brings it to the next point, which you said, experiment, I find that people, and I get it, especially if you're not new to it, looking for jobs is very serious, it's nervous, it's stressful. And experimentation is the last thing you think to do. However, what do you mean by experiment when looking for your dream job?
Justin at Fathom Architects: think it's exactly that. I think it's, going through, if you've got a plan, if you've got a longer term plan, then you can relax and experiment a bit, because you're you're testing the edges of what that dream job might look like and when you're younger with less responsibilities, it's much easier to do that experimenting than as you get older and more tied down.
Stephen Drew: Yeah, true. And also I think that it practice and experimentation, I think going to more interviews is just better. It's a hard skill to do. I remember I was extremely nervous going for an interview, like it's a test, you're like, Oh
Justin at Fathom Architects: yeah.
Stephen Drew: But the more you do them, I think you start getting more comfortable.
And then [00:30:00] over time, the interview becomes a more of a fact finding mutual meeting of two people. Whereas at the start when you're part one, you Please can I have a job, and I think that comes over time and I think experimentation has a lot to do with that,
Justin at Fathom Architects: and also, I think, be honest about what you're good at, what you're not good at. Don't try and answer the questions in what you think the person wants to hear. Because you'll end up, if you did that, you'll end up with a job and then three months later you'll be out because you're not suited for that job.
So it's blagging your way through is, I think, is a really bad strategy. It causes a lot of stress for everybody. I think.
Stephen Drew: I couldn't agree more now That's really useful in a general sense. Now this video can also be very useful for someone potentially applying to FAB. Okay,
so Yeah, why not, right? So I'd love to know a little bit more about what you look for when you're building a team. However, maybe before we do that, I'm going to bring up the eye candy because you've got beautiful [00:31:00] projects.
But in your words, what is what is Fathom about? Tell me more about Fathom Architects. Give us a,
give us the
Justin at Fathom Architects: We set up around a sort of skill base of solving complicated projects and sensitive sites. And there's two ends of a spectrum, really. Complexity you need to solve by, natural thinking, creativity, engineering, construction. And sensitivity is about, respecting a kind of conservationary or illicit building.
So there are polar opposites. And I think we realized in, as a team, we're able to marry those two skills and that's worked really well for us over our seven and a half years now. So that's the kind of thing, that's the core thing we're looking at when we're interviewing people is that understanding of, how you solve problems and a sensibility for the places that we're, very lucky to be able to deliver.
Projects and places within. So that, that's really about depth of complexities, [00:32:00] understanding people, the idea that if you design a building, we pick it up, move it somewhere else, it really shouldn't make any sense. It should be bespoke to the area that you're designing in. And to do that, we like to collaborate.
And I was always really fascinated I mentioned at the beginning, my other thought was graphic design as a career. If you work in an ad agency or a film production company, you bring a group of people together, the right group of people to do that particular project. A family friend of ours is art director for Star Wars, but you probably wouldn't, you probably wouldn't put him on a period drama.
Never asked him that question, but it's a different skill base and a different kind of excitement. Level. I think that idea of working together and working with the best people we can possibly find. We work with a lady part of our team, Lara. She's an interior designer. She did all the interior design on this with Harry.
And we could do a piece of interior design to upon a B plus or an A minus, but she would do it to an A plus. And sometimes a B plus [00:33:00] is what Someone's looking for but normally they're after an A and that's how we curate those teams. We bring different experts together to curate that.
And we sit as a core in the middle that are more generalists. As you were describing earlier, you need to be delivery. You need to be concept. You need to be all those different things. And that's. That's a really lovely way of working. I think probably over time you can quite easily slip back into kind of normal, traditional architectural ways of working.
We need to work harder and hard at keeping that kind of happening. And ultimately, we're trying to deliver something with more care. We're trying to deliver places or frameworks for places. That have got that extra care and attention for people. And that's where we try to drive value for our clients, occupants and so forth.
I came across a really lovely diagram that Charles and Ray Eames drew, which is about what is the role of a design office. It's a sort of squiggly one. It's worth Googling at some point. And [00:34:00] it was a squiggy time, overlap of three things society. What does society mean out of a piece of design, which in our case is generally probably governed by the planning system.
What does the client want? And then what does the design studio bring into the table? And you'll occupy that sort of crossover bit in the middle. And that, that shape can change. Project to project or even throughout the life of the project. So for us, it's very much, design has to add value.
Otherwise it becomes self referential, I think.
So that's what we try to achieve.
Stephen Drew: I think you do achieve it, right? But to achieve it, you can't do it alone, or you're skilled, you can't do it alone, can you? You just can't. And that makes complete sense. So what do you then look for, Justin, in an individual, to get what you're talking about? You've seen what works, you've seen what doesn't work so well.
There's a job for everyone, but in terms of Fathom, how do we
Justin at Fathom Architects: think, yeah, creativity is the number one. It's something that takes longer [00:35:00] to gestate. It's something you need to be learning at college and it evolves. That sort of sensibility, being able to synthesize a problem is really critical, and be able to think outside of the box. And that's where we really, focus our sort of time and effort.
Secondly, after that I think it's mindset, a really good proactive mindset a team working mindset. Engineers have a huge amount of contribute. We're lucky we've got some really good engineers, but if you don't. Ask them to contribute. They're just going to do as they're told.
And, a building is a team effort. It's not one architect sitting in a room doing a doodle and saying build that for the next 90 percent of your time. It's, it's constant toing and froing and that, that kind of passion and enthusiasm without ego is really critical.
And then the technical skills backs up that kind of behind and there's a perpetual debate about whether architectural skills Education should give you more technical skills. [00:36:00] Generally, I've always felt the creativity trumps. We have a, world renowned architectural education system here.
It's amazing. But every now and again, I do get a little bit frustrated. It's okay, so no one's being taught how to use Revit. It's like giving a racing car driver a car and saying, Oh, don't worry about the steering wheel. You can learn that when you get in.
Stephen Drew: true. That's how we met, wasn't it? At the bar because they were looking at changing stuff and that's how we met for the first time. We sat down and fortunately you got stuck next to me, but it was a good conversation. I think that's a nice The point you touched on, because you talked about the technical skills, Revit and CAD, and that's one of the things that we fed back to the bar that are hopefully doing it.
It's, of course, you need the ability to design, and we're not saying that isn't an important part of the course. However, the reality is, as you're running a business which cares about design, you're using this software. So if people have a little bit of an understanding, Justin, then that's better for everyone, right?
Justin at Fathom Architects: Yeah, it's a [00:37:00] quicker starting point.
Stephen Drew: Yeah.
Justin at Fathom Architects: We don't, when we advertise, we generally advertise as Revit preferred,
Stephen Drew: Yeah.
Justin at Fathom Architects: not essential, because the creativity will generally trump that, and, it's then a hard slog for a few months to get people up to speed on using that, but it, really is our sort of basic tool.
That said, hand sketching is also important. So it's, they, but they're, they're just a toolbox. Revit's a toolbox along with hand drawing, physical models, I put AI into that box as well, they're just, they're an evolving toolbox and we should just use whatever tool is best for the task at hand.
Yeah.
Stephen Drew: AI a lot in the business, sometimes more obvious than not. I'll be the first to admit it. I'm not hiding anything. However, I, where I think AI is a good case point is that I don't see it doing the design per se. I use it for the mundane stuff in the business.
It can be rewording something. It can be saving a bit of time. So I see it as a really good prompt just to [00:38:00] get me going. So for example, I use it to help me write these descriptions at the start, because I'm rushing. I was like, I put in the prompts and I say, give me five options. And then I see that one and then I tweak it.
So I don't blindly put it in. However, I think it's a tool to get going. Can I just build upon that? While you hear about your thoughts on AI and that stuff where it's going.
Justin at Fathom Architects: I we've had a couple of experiments. One aesthetic we were building. We're trying to build some little 3D models of people that we can use in our projects. So actually we one of the guys in the office, Spencer spent some time just generating that through AI.
And so we got as a, like a brainstorming exercise. Oh, this is quite interesting. It looks a bit like origami. And it's and now we're good. And now we've got to translate that into a real. 3D model which was a manual thing you're still using, rigging and things within that.
So it was a really good, what I would call, almost like brainstorming sketching process. So that, [00:39:00] that's a really good example and it probably got us something. Got us thinking outside of the box, so it's a tool to help our lateral thinking. The other example was I had to write a slightly tricky letter to a client so I email, so I wrote it, and I thought I'm just going to have a coffee, just leave that
Stephen Drew: Yeah,
Justin at Fathom Architects: And I came back, and I just put that in, and I chucked it in, and it's please make more friendly, and it's oh yeah, that's much better. And I probably would have, yeah, I probably would have got there, but I think I got there quicker, and that's the only time I've used it. If I'd used it 50 times, I definitely would have got there quicker. So you've got to learn the tool, haven't you?
Stephen Drew: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And what I've I think that I've I heard some analogy and I'm probably butchering it because we're live. 7 p. m. We're getting back in the new year. However, someone has, we've all got to do decisions in the day. And if there's lots of decisions over time, we get exhausted, right?
But where I like chat GPT is that you can do some of the mundane stuff over there and you can keep your thinking for the things that are important. Keep your eye on the [00:40:00] prize, doing the stuff that really requires
Justin at Fathom Architects: I think I read something somewhere that there was a 6 percent chance of architecture being replaced by AI, which I think on the job list, on the job risk list, it was pretty much at the bottom. So I was quite, I can't remember where I read that, but.
Stephen Drew: I couldn't agree more. Recruitment on the other hand, I think has got, I think job boards will, they will kill job boards, right? However, anything where it involves human or complicated or making the design decision, it's not there yet. I do think ChatGPT can render a beautiful collage of a project, which looks amazing, but getting it built in the real world is a totally different skill set.
It's a closer to set design, which even then, that's.
Justin at Fathom Architects: I'd love to find an AI that could sift through CVs. That would be the that would be quite a good one.
Stephen Drew: Do you know what? And this is what make you laugh on that point. I was saying that someone else, if you've got like a basic maybe an account job or a reception job or something where the [00:41:00] CV is quite two dimensional, it's one thing, but it's going to be very hard to work out an architecture CV. And I always laugh that I see some things.
Talk just in about, oh, you've got to make your CV ready for parsing to go through the system. I like nothing can process an architecture CV, but that's the beauty of what we do. Isn't it? We
Justin at Fathom Architects: So multidimensional.
Stephen Drew: Yeah, CV and Portfolio there's no clear cut, so always the last mini tangent I would say is sometimes people say how many pages are in the CV, how many pages of Portfolio, what font should I use?
And I can give some rough ideas, but as an architect, that's for you to lean in, isn't it? And I always think like you, as you said earlier, looking at the websites and stuff, know your client. So as an architect, you have a client when your job is that you can. Think about your audience. Fab and Marketeers will want to apply to there, respectively the client.
What CV and portfolio will stick out for you, is most likely going to get you an interview, isn't it?
Justin at Fathom Architects: yeah, and spend 10 minutes editing your [00:42:00] portfolio to the bit you think that's going to be more relevant, or reorder it, that's another good one, put the important stuff at the front. Our top tip, always put in if you've been working for a while, still put in your college work. Because it shows your kind of creativity, not too much, just a little bit.
And if you're applying after your part two, do put in your year out experience because that forms a bigger picture,
Stephen Drew: Got you. I think
that's
Justin at Fathom Architects: would argue.
Stephen Drew: No, it makes makes complete sense. Now, I know you're going to ask a question for me however, before we do that, we have one more question from the audience that maybe we can both answer together. Raul says, Hi guys, thanks for the chat. Do you think it's still worth it to apply for sponsorship roles in the UK?
Answer is yes, especially with a graduate visa. It's a lot easier these days than before. I think that no matter what you think about this government and all this stuff, they released a new visa for high potential individuals. I think it's called API. Sounds a bit like it sounds a bit like an STD or something to me, shouldn't say that.
[00:43:00] But what I mean is API is high potential individual. And I think as an architect or architect assistant is getting easier for employers to sponsor, it still means it's going to be hard. And what I always say is that if you serious about getting a job, you still have to, in my opinion, come to London, hit the ground, run in, send out your applications, be ready to be there.
I don't think people are going to interview you if you're, not. available if you're not around, but I do think companies will sponsor so it is worth applying. But Justin, what do you think from
Justin at Fathom Architects: Yeah I think it's a really good question. I think, I absolutely I think, London needs a really good international mixing pot of people. And I had a project once, and I think there were 18 of us who had 12 different nationalities, which was amazing. And just the cultural input you get from that is great.
But also, we need More people here unfortunately somewhere along the line we decided that we, somebody decided they didn't think we needed more people here so yes, we're very much open, please do apply across the [00:44:00] board and I think people are very open to sponsorship, but, I think being here shows a level of commitment and will get you through that food chain quicker,
Stephen Drew: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I would travel in for an interview. I know it's a bit more costly. I know it's a bit more tricky, however, it really does weed you out against everyone else. And the other thing I was going to say is I think it really helps to identify what visa you have for the employer and tell them how you can solve it.
So you say listen, I've got an employment's list that is going to be this visa. It's very simple for you. The more you make it easier, the better 90 percent of the practices. I speak to would sponsor if they know how, but they haven't got there or they've been too busy. Therefore, the bigger practices tend to know what they're doing.
So if you spell it out to more companies, you just increase your chances. Do you think that's
Justin at Fathom Architects: Yeah, I think you could put a little, extra page at the back of your CV or portfolio or something saying this is the sponsorship process as I understand it because even if it's a big practice, the person reading your [00:45:00] CV might not understand. And they go, okay, there's, so I've got to register, you've got to register this, the cost of this is this, and the timescale is X and don't.
And just be honest as well. And I think, the other places you could do, you could come over and try and meet a number of people at the same time. So if you sent your CV in and it looked interesting to us, and you say, look I'm going to come over next month. And they go, fine, we can, we'll make some time to make sure that we can see you.
That, that commitment goes both ways. So it's a good way of you going, actually, I'm going to come over, but I can't come over tomorrow morning, but I can come over in a few weeks. Are you committed to me as well as am I committed to you?
Stephen Drew: Yeah. Yeah. Good point. There was there was a few times I've heard that happen, and I've seen that happen and really the people that took a jump usually got the job. It is appreciated, isn't it? If someone comes out of their way to see you, Justin, you're going
Justin at Fathom Architects: even if that practice hasn't got anything at the time, you're just going in, you're seeing different practices, you're getting a feel for what people in London [00:46:00] are looking for. That's really invaluable. I did a, I walked around cold calling when I couldn't find a job. It was really depressing.
And it, but it was great because I ran into all these architects perhaps, this looks really fun in here. So you're learning even though it's quite tricky. Cold calling for those that don't know just turning up, ringing the doorbell with your portfolio and you're on.
Stephen Drew: Yeah it's hard. Sometimes I think even just getting out there, especially I'm sure during the global, recession before that was painful, wasn't it? You just you've got to do it. However, all that cold calling was worth it because you worked in the industry, you set a fathom, which is amazing.
And I think everyone should check it out. But just before I re remind everyone of the links. Justin, I always think it's bad, it's only fair if I'm throwing all these questions to you, you get to ask me one or two questions, whatever comes to mind. Do you have anything
Justin at Fathom Architects: I'd love to ask you what is the one thing that's really changed [00:47:00] in architecture recruitment since you started?
Stephen Drew: Oh Revit is the big thing. So now it's all my requirements and you've got to remember that businesses come to recruitment consultants when they don't have time because. We charge, and so all the requirements are Revit. So it's pretty much a done deal. The only one or two practices that we work with who don't really do it are more interiors focused or high end residential.
It
Justin at Fathom Architects: Yeah.
Stephen Drew: is a necessity. What else has changed? We've done a U turn, we went from all physical interviews. Online interview wasn't even a thing! It's what are you on about? You gotta go! And now we've gone all online, and now we're going back to the way we know it from before.
And I always encourage people, yes, it's mildly inconvenient. Compared to going on Teams, you gotta get dressed and go into the office. But I always tell people that it's just as much for them as it
Justin at Fathom Architects: absolutely. Going back to that cultural fit, you get and make the [00:48:00] feel. So we've recruited a couple of people in lockdown, and I suppose somebody else is But just how? That doesn't make any sense but you don't know, when you don't know how tall they are, and it's excuse me, you don't know how tall they are, but they turn out they might be completely different.
I thought that was such a random
Stephen Drew: That is the last thing on my list. You're like, I hope they were a good person, I don't, the high, yeah, that's that's true. What else has changed? It would be interesting to see where AI goes. I don't really think it will affect much. A lot of things have gone the same. I think what would be interesting Justin, in the last bit is that the architecture industry had a big shakeup in the pandemic, because I think a lot of people thought.
Working remote was impossible. It just, to me, it was, the impression was you can't run an architectural practice unless you're in physically, and then we did it. Hooray. But then other things, there's always a cost to everything. And I think now I'm quite curious to see where do we go from physical to remote pandemic to hybrid now.
[00:49:00] This point. So I think the push and pull will be there and I think that will be the big thing of 2024.
Justin at Fathom Architects: as a big a big driver from applicants?
Stephen Drew: Yes. So before, when I was in recruitment, the big drivers were project, location, salary and benefits, whereas now it's projects. And location slash hybrid working slash salary and cultures in there. But what I mean is people talk about work life balance. It's one of the requirements. And and we shall see how that pans out.
It's, I don't know if you were, if I was a gambling person, which I'm not, I don't know which way it's going to go, but I think that's going to be the tension point because it's a tricky one,
Justin at Fathom Architects: quite interesting
Stephen Drew: Yeah
Justin at Fathom Architects: fun times.
Stephen Drew: Watch this space. Last time, before we go, I love what you do, however, [00:50:00] if someone's listening to this, or they're watching this, but want to find more about your, you, your practice, how do they find you online?
Justin at Fathom Architects: Online, Google. Have a look through our news. Have a look through our LinkedIn site, follow Fathom Architects on LinkedIn and on Instagram. And yeah, have a listen,
Stephen Drew: There
you
Justin at Fathom Architects: a delve, and feel free to send an email into the office, by all means.
Stephen Drew: Excellent. And one more time for the audio. This is www. fathomarchitects. com. With the spell fathom, F A T H O M, architects. com. Thank you so much,
Justin at Fathom Architects: Brilliant. Lovely to see you.
Stephen Drew: I really
Justin at Fathom Architects: lag gets better.
Stephen Drew: Yeah, we'll be fine there. So stay on the stage one second while I close down the live stream and I want to thank everyone in the audience for joining us.
I love the fact that you brought some questions to the table, but also if you're watching this on replay, do check out and tune in and follow us and and subscribe and all that YouTube malarkey that they say because we've got more [00:51:00] content coming up. I've even got one tomorrow, but there's going to be more and more.
I'm excited for 2020, 2024. Oh my God, 2020, 2024. So let's see what happens. Thank you so much. I'm going to end the live stream now. Take care, everyone. Bye bye.