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join niki franco (venus roots), a community organizer, writer, and facilitator of spaces for collective study, as she leans into conversations of radical truth-telling with artists, theorists, and organizers living in a world of rigid binaries and multiple truths. she navigates the urgency of solidarity, ancestral preservation, and dismantling systems of oppression that inform and deform our lives.
@venusroots
www.venusroots.com
Hey, everyone. You are tuned in for another episode of getting to the root of it with Venus roots, aka me, your host. And it has been an absolutely wild time. I feel like every hour, there are new developments, coming out of the sort of political establishment and political elite in the United States. So sort of conversation for today, I feel, is, like, as relevant as ever, as urgent as ever.
Niki:So I'm really excited, to be joined today with Jamie Teiberg, an organizer with Notutol. Thank you so much for being on the show, Jamie.
Jamie:Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to talk with you.
Niki:Yeah. I mean, you know, Jamie, something that comes to mind is, like, in just the last couple of days, you know, in the past couple weeks, so much around, like, the political legitimacy of the parties in the United States and their sort of aggression towards the global south has been just, like, a topic that has been not just in the minds of, I think, progressive people or people in diaspora, but also just even mainstream news. Right? I think people are asking what will be the legacy of politician warmongers like Joe Biden. And it makes me really excited to have this conversation with you today because when I think of Korea, it's of course, the US is known to villainize and create these absurd propaganda narratives, about anyone that chooses to, you know, sort of assert themselves and lead their own country in the way that they choose.
Niki:But I really think that Korea gets some of the worst, most vile propaganda. And I myself, as someone who cares a lot about politics and history and, like, kind of making sense of the world, I didn't really know much about the Korean War or even why there is a, quote, unquote, North Korean, quote, unquote, South Korea from even just, like, a couple years ago. And I'm still really early in my understandings. I'm really early in, like, trying to understand why all of that happened. So can you sort of, like, lay some context for us?
Niki:Like, for people who are listening are like, yeah. I actually don't know what the Korean War is. I don't know why there are 2 Koreas. Like, can you sort of ground us a little bit on, like, how did this reality come to be, and and what are sort of the interests at play?
Jamie:Totally. The Korean War is often referred to as the forgotten war in Korea peace movement spaces and, organizing among the Korean diaspora precisely because it's really not in the American public consciousness. And what might exist about Korea out there in the public sphere is so propaganda driven like you're saying. Some of the most vilifying narratives are spread about Korea and North Korea in particular. I think maybe part of the reason why it is so forgotten is because the Korean war actually marks the beginning of America's imperialist wars after it really cements itself as the world hegemony after, the second World War.
Jamie:The Korean War happens almost immediately after in 1950, and it only really gains attention from committed organizers, anti war organizers, a lot of black communists, particularly because it's a lot of black men that are conscripted to go fight over there. And it actually sets the ground for the huge anti war movement that would come during the Vietnam War after. But to speak a little bit as to why the Korean War even happened, why there are 2 Koreas. For over a 1000 years, Korea was one country under a shared territory, system of governance, national language, culture. But it had to fight a lot of foreign powers, and forces of occupation, including, you know, France and, the British, but most prominently Japan, which is the closest country, in terms of the colonizers.
Jamie:At the same time that Germany and Italy are really trying to expand their fascist empires in Europe, Japan is doing the same thing in East Asia. And Koreans fight for their independence from Japanese colonization for years. And when they finally are able to kick out the Japanese, especially because Japan is, you know, bombed twice, by America during the 2nd World War, It declares the Korean People's Republic. People are forming their own self governance. People are really celebrating their hard earned independence.
Jamie:And because of what's happening in its allied countries such as, the Soviet Union as well as the People's Republic of China, the new independent Korea really leans socialist. And that was a huge threat to the US, because once they've defeated the Nazis, their next the US' next enemy really becomes communism and the new emerging powers of the Soviet Union. And so having Korea turn into a socialist country is a huge threat to the US. And they decide, you know what? That really doesn't work with us.
Jamie:And so they land in Korea in the peninsula just days after the Korean People's Republic is established. And General MacArthur of the US military actually issues a proclamation to the Korean people Without any consent or will of the Korean people, he announces that the US military will now control Korea south of the 38th parallel. So there's, you know, anecdotes and direct quotes from US soldiers who are like, I knew nothing about Korea. I knew nothing about the Korean peninsula. But just one day, I was tasked with drawing a line across the country to see which parts the US should have control over.
Jamie:And so that really marks the beginning of the Korean War because so many of the Koreans who soldiers and, you know, militant communists, and just organizers in general do not want to lose their hard earned independence and their national liberation project must be defended. And so this is where the narrative of, oh, North Korea invaded South Korea. But when you think about it, one country can't invade themselves. You know, Korea can't invade Korea. And so what happened was that the North, which was invested in this project of national liberation, then goes to war with the US military occupation that is happening in the South, and that marks the beginning of the Korean War.
Jamie:And so it's, again, not that the North, quote, unquote, invaded the South, but that fighters of independence and protectors of Korean National Liberation go to war with the US military occupation?
Niki:I you know, there's I mean, there's a lot there. Like, I think the to hear the you know, this white American military general sort of arbitrarily without any sense of consent or will of the Korean people, goes on to decide, you know, this arbitrary division where families are separated. There's antagonism that I think, of course, you know and I know you speak to, that follows, right, up to this day. Right? Like, to this day, there's still this, this arbitrage division that has become real in a lot of ways, and propped up by the US.
Niki:And something that you mentioned that, you know, kind of got my head spinning was sort of the connection between, like, black men having to, you know, be part of the the military and go to this faraway land, you know, to go attack people of color and people in the global south. And I think it constantly draws to the ways in which, like, so many of us, you know, whether we whether we choose it or not, are interconnected. And I think to people who might be asking like well you know what does Korea have to do with me? It's like I think the answer is always so much. Right?
Niki:You know when you were saying this I was thinking like the fact that my dad moved to the US was in 1973 during the Vietnam War, and that's just, like, what they were doing to, like, recruit young, poor, Puerto Ricans on the island. And it was, like, you know, pitched as this, like, way to advance your life. You know? And and my dad, like, you know, share stories of being, like, I didn't even speak English and thinking, like, I'm gonna get sent to Vietnam. Like, I don't even know what that is.
Niki:You know, and it was to fight this enemy of communism. But, yeah, it makes me think of the ways in where all these sort of imperialist battles are connected in, like, so many explicit and, subtle ways. But I think, you know, around Korea, like, how are you all in your organizing work sort of making sense around, you know, reunification or, you know, where where is the sort of diaspora, and where is the sort of conversation now? Right? You know, fast forwarding to today, what's the sort of relationship between the US and, quote, unquote, South Korea, North Korea?
Niki:And, like, what does it mean for Korean families and Korean people?
Jamie:Mhmm. Yeah. Of course, you know, the country is not homogeneous, and so there's a wide range of opinions about the US military, or North Korea. But one sentiment that I think rings true with really everybody is that they want reunification. The Korean war was from 1950 to 1953.
Jamie:And so there are families, even my grandma whose siblings went up to the North, to join the Liberation Army to fight the US, was never actually able to return to the South, after the line was drawn and the country was divided. And so it's not and also it's not just Koreans in the US with US passports that aren't allowed to go to North Korea, but South Korean citizens also aren't allowed to go to North Korea. And so families, siblings, loved ones remain divided. And, you know, people that have been split when they were, say, like, the age of, you know, 7 or 8 are now nearing their death, and they still haven't been able to be reunited with their families. They don't even know how they spent the rest of their lives, and how they grew up.
Jamie:And so I think despite the wide range of opinions about the US military, it's the the desire for reunification is really there. And I think Korea is also a really great example in terms of why a ceasefire isn't enough. The reason why Korea still remains divided today is because while there was a ceasefire to, pause the war, no formal peace agreement was ever reached to permanently end the war. And that's precisely because people in the North, especially the ones that were extremely disciplined and revolutionary, wanted an independent reunification They wanted the reunification to happen under US' terms or really the US wanted this. Right?
Jamie:They would implement puppet governments, that would just listen to anything they said. And so there was constant tension about how the reunification process would happen, whether it would be independent, determined by the people of Korea democratically, or that it would happen through the US military and their terms. And so because of this, no formal agreement could be reached. And that's why the country still remains divided today. And so that really tells us while a ceasefire may pause the war, it only gave new life to the US occupation and presence on Korea.
Jamie:Today, there's still nearly 30,000 US soldiers stationed in in South Korea across 62 military bases. And the largest, American military base outside of North America is actually in South Korea. And so the US really continues to impede against the will of the Korean people. And they are the primary reason for this division and, what is inhibiting the peaceful reunification of the peninsula?
Niki:I mean, it's there's so much wild shit there. I think for anyone, especially if you are a taxpayer in the United States, like, I think it's infuriating to hear that how much our government is just infatuated, obsessed, with, you know, military occupation in all its forms. Right? Like, to hear that the largest military base outside of North America is in South Korea and to think of all the resources, like, all the labor. You know, I mean, it's like the physical bases, the military soldiers that are there, the sort of, like, intellectual power that these American political system are expending to constantly come up with ways and, like, propaganda talking points.
Niki:And I think we all know, like, aggression towards Korea has not, diminished by any way, and I appreciate this connection between, yeah, like, a reckoning of what does a ceasefire mean in practicality and the ways in which it's insufficient, and how to, like, sort of take lessons from the Korean people in this moment. It it does make me think, how are you all as organizers kind of sort of assessing this moment? I think we all know we're, like, in a very particular historical political conjuncture that sort of seems like it's shifting, you know, day by day, hour by hour sometimes. And it seems like US hegemony is is in its fracture it's in a fracturing moment. Right?
Niki:And which is exciting for billions of people across the world. So curious for you all as organizers in the diaspora, kind of how are y'all prioritizing this this sort of moment? How are you all moving through organizing in diaspora? And, like, what what is next for you all? Mhmm.
Jamie:Yeah. I mean, referring back to the beginning of the Korean War and how that was one of the first or the first, imperialist war for America after gaining its hegemony as a world power after the second World War. We're in a completely different place now where that hegemony is in decline. The US is declining on the world stage politically, economically, financially. Really, the only power that it has left is military power, military force.
Jamie:And we're really seeing that in Korea as well as just the Pacific at large because US war drills have been increasing, and their aggression against North Korea has been increasing. And it's causing so much tension on the peninsula. I mean, just last year, the US conducted 200 days of war drills in Korea. And these war drills include rehearsals for what it would look like for them to invade North Korea. And as you're saying, all of it is paid by American tax dollars, some of it Korean, South Korean tax dollars.
Jamie:So many 1,000,000,000 of dollars that could be spent on real social services that we are lacking on in our day to day life. And these increased tensions and military aggression is really bringing us closer to war in Asia. And because of the US's division, US's military occupation of South Korea, North Korea has had to respond with building up its defenses. I mean, what else would you do as a country if this foreign occupying power on the southern half of your own country's land is rehearsing invading your country? And it was the US actually that first introduced nuclear weapons to the peninsula.
Jamie:They snuck in nuclear weapons to South Korea without actually telling South Korea that they were doing that. And we might remember again, that the US was the only country in the history of the world to ever drop nuclear weapons on another country.
Niki:Which is wild for a country that is obsessed with pointing the finger to other countries
Jamie:and No. Totally. You know, they're
Niki:obsessed with the line of weapons of mass destruction, nuclear weapons. We're just, you know, and it's
Jamie:Yeah. Everyone can have it, or no one can have it but them. And so because of this, the increasing tensions could really easily lead to nuclear war because now the South has it. And in response, the North has had to build that up. And, you know, to go back to Biden and what his legacy will be now that he's has stepped down for Koreans or people of the Korean diaspora.
Jamie:To us, Biden's legacy is increasing tensions on the peninsula to the point that North Korea is now giving up on a peaceful reunification, which is a policy that they've pursued so consistently and so rigorously for decades. But because through US, you know, backed policies, the South Korean government is becoming so hostile to North Korea that they're no longer interested in dialogue with the US. They're no longer thinking that a peaceful reunification is feasible. And so the possibility of war is higher than ever on the peninsula today.
Niki:Wow. I mean, this is always really clarifying, and it's sort of useful because I think, obviously, in the west, it's clear, like, we are getting a very particular narrative, I mean, set to serve, US interests. And I think when a lot of American people are, like, hearing in the news or seeing on their phone on social media, I think it's easy to think that North Korea is this really difficult and, you know, this difficult government that won't won't negotiate and, like, doesn't you know, they're just so difficult to deal with, and they're the ones that are, like, taking us to the brink of nuclear war, which impacts every single person in this in this planet. And I think this is really clarifying and helpful because it's like that's, you know, not only is that inaccurate, but it's also just so incomplete. Right?
Niki:I think the US does do a really amazing job of sort of, like, kind of removing itself from the blame equation or from the equation of responsibility. And I think everything you're saying, I think anyone would do exactly that. Right? Any sovereign government that feels an increased hostility and, you know, this idea of sneaking in weapons. I mean, I think that's absolutely insane.
Niki:Like, I I hope that all Americans know this or, like, learn this because it's, like, I think it's infuriating for us. I think it is interesting, like, this moment. I don't think anti war is right now solely, like, a progressive movement. I think everything that's happening in Palestine has shown that, you know, even people who are not, like, super radical or, you know, like, might know a lot about history are feeling betrayed by the American government that they see their sort of realities here in this country decline by the day. You know, it's you spoke to, like, us not having basic social services, and I think that's more and more apparent every day.
Niki:But then to know that instead, they're investing in aggression and in, you know, bringing war as more of a possibility to the world. So you all, as an organization, you know, you all are sort of making all these political analyses and sort of sharpening your understanding. Are there sort of asks or sort of things that you all want people to be keeping in mind in this moment as we see the sort of, like, political theater unfolds every week. For people who are, like, hearing this for the first time and feeling moved, like, wow. This is crazy.
Niki:I actually didn't know any of this information. There's a lot of ways in which it impacts. I mean, of course, it impacts all of us. What are the sort of ways in which you all are kind of creating entry points right now if someone wants to get organized? What's happening now?
Jamie:Yeah. I think on an individual level, for folks who are really coming around to the issue of Korea for the first time, I would ask that you ask questions. You know? Just simply question everything that is coming out of US propaganda. You know, I think the the ceasefire, negotiations, regarding Palestine is a really great example of how many lies the US government just repeatedly makes up.
Jamie:If you were to just watch, you know, a mainstream cable news network, you would really think that it's Hamas that's refusing to any of the ceasefire agreements. But we're hearing directly from, the political parties in Palestine or the people in Palestine saying Hamas has agreed to almost everything and has made so many concessions just to ensure a ceasefire for their people. And it is Israel and the US that are saying no at every turn. It's the it's the same model for Korea. It's North Korea that has pursued peaceful reunification.
Jamie:It's North Korea that has dealt with sanctions for decades, imposed by the US government. It's the North Korean people that have suffered, not being able to be reunited with their families, or just, again, have basic necessities, like, for the reproduction of their life and their economy. It is the US that is the real culprit as to why there is increasing tensions on the peninsula, as to why people are quote, unquote starving or experiencing famine. And the more we can question all of the misinformation and the propaganda that is being fed to us by the US government, the closer we can become to the truth. And on a larger level, my organization, Noritor, is launching a new campaign called US out of Korea, and we'll be organizing more events and rallies in the upcoming months.
Jamie:And so I would hope that people plug in and get involved and share with their friends and families and, you know, do what they can to help really broaden and strengthen this, new or not new, but a reemerging anti imperialist movement, here in the United States.
Niki:Yes. That's so exciting. This political moment has honestly awakened and reenergized so many people across age and different cities. And I'd love to hear a little bit more about the campaign and the demands and for people who are listening or wanna throw it down, how they can get involved.
Jamie:Totally. You know, as an organization made up of the Korean diaspora, as well as other diaspora across Asia, we really consider this US out of Korea campaign as not just something that concerns Koreans, but as something that will build up our capacity, here in the empire to oppose and defeat imperialism once and for all. Our strategy is that by leveraging our own national liberation struggle, we can join in and contribute to and strengthen this anti imperialist front, within the empire. And we really want to, you know, 1st and foremost, educate, and consolidate the existing progressive propaganda. And I think by uniting this broader anti imperialist movement around Korea as one of the national liberation struggles, the sharper our analysis will become, about imperialism and about the different roles that all the different diaspora and all the different sectors across US society can play.
Jamie:In terms of our demands, we do have, 4 main demands. I wanna note that all of these are directed against or at the US government as opposed to the South Korean government because we are an organization made up of primarily US citizens, here in the empire. The first demand is US out of Korea. We demand the full and permanent withdrawal of US troops and weapon systems from Korea. And we demand that all the Korean land, water, and airspace appropriated for the US military be returned to the Korean people.
Jamie:Our second demand is end the US South Korea alliance. I'll briefly expand upon this a bit. As I alluded to earlier, the US is really grasping onto its military power because it's declining and losing power in all other areas. And so in Asia and the Pacific specifically, they really relied on enlisting support from South Korea, Japan, the Philippines, Thailand, and Australia to supplement its defense capabilities. And so under these, you know, military alliances, The US military has unrestricted access to the use of South Korean military bases.
Jamie:They can actually enlist all the South Korean soldiers, for any time of war, And the US military holds operational wartime command over the South Korean military. And so we want or demand an end to all of these joint command structures and the military alliance, because that's really the only way to achieve a lasting political solution in Korea. Our third demand is to end all aggression against North Korea. Again, the US has imposed, a near blockade sanctions on North Korea and its 26,000,000 people. This really directly attacks the livelihoods of families.
Jamie:It creates shortages and goods necessary for the health of the population, and it really stunts the development of the country's economy. All of these things, conditions that they're creating in North Korea, they then twist and use, for their propaganda saying that, you know, the government is starving their people. The government does not provide goods for their people. But those are the results of US sanctions, not the North Korean government. And we want an an end to all US military exercises in Korea because, again, all of the war drills, all of the sneaking in of the nuclear weapons, poses an existential threat, not only to North Korea, but to the world again because it could easily escalate to a nuclear war.
Jamie:And lastly, we want an end to the war economy. The US government spends an estimated 1,500,000,000,000 annually on war on the on building up its military capacities. It's also one of the world's largest weapons producers and exporters, and the US military itself is one of the biggest institutional environmental polluters on the history of our planet. So much of this comes at the expense of just everyday services that we need to, you know, reach our full potential beyond just mere survival, whether that's housing, education, health care. And the wealth that they are pouring towards this war economy is actually wealth that is made by us, made by working people in the US.
Jamie:And so we really demand that all of that go to working people and our needs and our wants.
Niki:There's so much at stake. And, you know, when I hear you walk through these demands, it really reminds me that there's so many reasons why we must get organized. And that makes me wanna ask you, Jamie, for people who are listening and, you know, feel activated but might not think of themselves as organizers or have a lot of experience with organization. Can you talk a little bit about that fear or hesitancy?
Jamie:Yeah. I mean, I sometimes joke, that, like, joining Notedor got rid of my depression and my anxiety. But there's really something to be said about being part of a collective and being part of something that's larger than myself. Because when we think about all of the problems that we're facing, it it is really, really overwhelming, and it is really anxiety inducing. And there is simply no way that we could address any of them on our own or through just one off projects here and there.
Jamie:You know, we it really requires a daily commitment, making time every single day of our lives, to be disciplined and to come together as an organized group of people, and, you know, vision together as well as create concrete steps towards towards that vision and making that a reality. And I would just advise that, you know, there is no perfect organization that you can just join, and there's no perfect time, for you to join 1. You really have to sacrifice certain things, to make time for organizing. And even when you join, you really have to, struggle with others together to make the organization something greater. And, you know, I think believing in, your ability to change and grow and believing in other people's ability to change and grow, is really, really key here.
Niki:Yeah. I could really resonate with that. I mean, I feel like for me personally, it took people believing in my leadership and believing that I would be able to develop and do things that I personally didn't think I could, you know, and that completely transformed the sort of trajectory of my life and quite frankly, and I know this and believe this, that wouldn't have been possible without organization. So absolutely affirming, yes. Jamie, thank you so so much for being in the show.
Niki:Thank you for your clarity, your commitment, and thank you for the invitation for all of us to support this campaign, US out of Korea.
Jamie:Thank you so much.