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Who thinks that they can subdue Leviathan? Strength resides in its neck; dismay goes before it. It is without fear. It looks down on all who are haughty; it is king over all who are proud. These words inspired PJ Wehry to create Chasing Leviathan. Chasing Leviathan was born out of two ideals: that truth is worth pursuing but will never be subjugated, and the discipline of listening is one of the most important habits anyone can develop. Every episode is a dialogue, a journey into the depths of a meaningful question explored through the lens of personal experience or professional expertise.
Hello and welcome to Chasing the Viathan. I'm your host, PJ Weary, and I'm here today with Dr. Edwin Murillo, Associate Professor in Spanish at the University of Tennessee Chattanooga. And we are discussing his book, Latin America and Existentialism, a Pan-American Literary History. And Dr. Murillo, wonderful to have you on today.
Edwin Murillo (00:29.405)
Good afternoon PJ. I really appreciate the opportunity to be here. I'm quite honored actually to be here. So thank you so much.
PJ (00:39.122)
So, generally the first question I ask is why this book? So, what led you to start this as a project?
Edwin Murillo (00:50.582)
Fascinating question. I do get asked that question a lot. I think that the book began, you know, well over 10 years ago out of just sheer curiosity. Existentialism is a cultural phenomenon. We see it to this very day and we see its footprints in film and sculptures.
even in music, and of course we still see it in literature and in philosophy. Um, so while I was pondering this idea, um, I was also curious as to, well, since, since we look at existentialism as a global phenomenon, uh, being a Latin Americanist in terms of my field of study, the question naturally popped up. Well, where is it? Latin America?
in this global phenomena question. Where are we? And when I began to research it, turns out that, of course, existentialism was really important in Latin America, and most of the philosophical and literary historians from like the 1930s and forward began to document the footsteps of existentialism. And they always seemed to begin with Latin America
appearing in the 1950s or 1960s. In other words, always after the initial euphoria of existentialism in Europe.
But then I remember having read a book by a Colombian poet author, José Asuncion Silva, from the late 19th century. And when I went back to the novel, I realized that there were several passages. The novel is set up as a diary. There were several entries that are absolutely Nietzschean at their core. And of course, this was written in 1896.
Edwin Murillo (02:53.99)
So I began to think of Latin America and existentialism as not a afterthought or as subsequent to the European boom of the 1940s, but as participating in the very
beginning stages of existentialism if we're going to think of it that way. And then the other question naturally was since existentialism is mostly known as a philosophical and a literary phenomenon, I was like, well, where are Latin American philosophers in all this conversation?
And of course I started to visit some of the important figures from the late 19th, early 20th century from Brazil, like Farias Brito from Columbia, Fernando, Gonzales Ochoa from Mexico, Samuel Ramos from Argentina, and different philosophical voices from Argentina. And I found them all to be dealing with very existentially.
huge questions. You know, the great questions of humanity, why are we here, what is our purpose, what happens after, and these are all, you know, philosophical voices dealing with what would later be really categorized as existentialism, but since they're writing at the end of the 19th, earlier 20th century, I feel like maybe they had been forgotten from when existentialism became.
know, canonized. They were just not included in the conversation. So all that is to say that that's how I came about this. I started to look at existentialism before the 1940s and I found that Latin America participated in many ways even if they weren't using the actual word
Edwin Murillo (04:52.886)
there from the very beginning. So I think it's, just a, that's a stop. What do you think, fine.
PJ (04:55.742)
So I think it's just to set this up. How would you define existentialism? I realize that's not an uncontroversial question.
Edwin Murillo (05:13.249)
Oh, yeah, of course. And I take care to dedicate several pages of my book in the introduction to providing definitions of existentialism. And, of course, and you actually brought them up a little earlier. Dr. Lewis Gordon, who's been on your podcast a couple of times, I
I absolutely rely on standing on the shoulders of giants. So I look at what other historians, philosophical historians have done, and I provide those definitions. Because as you mentioned, it's quite controversial. I look at Kevin Aho, I look at Lewis Gordon.
I look to William McBride and George Cockkin and Stephen Crowell. And I look at, of course, the Latin Americanists that I mentioned earlier who worked in the 1940s and 50s, who also provide quite detailed definitions of existentialism. But in a nutshell,
I think I'll just refer to Jean-Paul Sartre, one of the patron saints of existentialism. It's this notion that existence precedes essence, and the jumping point is that if, in fact, humanity is not predestined to any one outcome, what does that mean?
for humans, for humanity as a whole, that we have been gifted all this freedom and responsibility. And then that points to the importance of choice. What does humanity do with the choices that we must make through our life that will determine our history? The great Spanish philosopher, Ortega Gasset,
Edwin Murillo (07:20.246)
and of course I'm paraphrasing here, explains that you know man has no essence, what he has is his history. Don Quixote, and here again you know I'm not quoting I'm paraphrasing Don Quixote, the character of the Miguel de una Muno Novo, tells his squire Sancho Panza
that man is the son of his choices, right? He becomes the son of the choices that he makes. And I believe that most of the, or all of the figures that I look at in my book have to reckon with that freedom.
PJ (07:51.254)
Mm.
Edwin Murillo (08:05.234)
that responsibility of having to choose or not what to do within a universe within an existence that is absolutely indifferent to us and unsympathetic 100% unsympathetic and once these personalities these characters Realize that they are orphaned in the sense of there's not this
metaphysical, ethical being looking over us. Once they realize or come to the realization that they are orphaned, what do they do with that solitude? Some of the characters reject it completely and fall into what you know Sartre called bad faith. They reject that reality of being
the owners of their own present and future and start to find excuses for everything that's happening to them. And then there's other characters that thrive in that solitude and decide that they are going to be the creators of their own ethics and decide to really enjoy the earthly.
And I'm thinking particularly of the character in Jose Ascension Silva's novel, Jose Fernandez, who is ill throughout most of the novel. And he's ill because his life projects don't provide the contentment and the authentic
fulfillment that he's looking for and it's because he's trying to find happiness within a Judeo-Christian Society that is quite restrictive in terms of morality so when he comes to that realization and he and he disassociates himself from that and He just gives in to all his earthly pleasure delights He he finds a sense of contentment that he hadn't been able to find through
Edwin Murillo (10:19.874)
chasing ideal love or following what his society thought a man of his stature should do. He literally starts to create his own life project based on his own parameters of what will make him feel content and at that moment he actually is released from that sense of anguish and that illness that's been
Edwin Murillo (10:49.162)
What is somewhat paradoxical is that the character finds an authentic sense of being, but the author himself commits suicide in 1896. So it's as if he wrote an avatar that could live on in the way he wished he could, but the weight of social expectation for Asinti Onycilba was too much, and he committed suicide.
PJ (11:06.19)
Mm.
PJ (11:19.171)
Hmm.
PJ (11:25.61)
Now you've mentioned a little bit, and it seems to be a big part of the project, even as you read the intro, where does this exclusion come from? When we talk about the history of existentialism in Latin America, at least in Anglo studies, starting in the 50s and 60s and ignoring or forgetting a large chunk. Why do you think that exclusion happens?
Edwin Murillo (11:56.01)
That's a great question, PJ, and not to be, not to criticize, you know, the North American Academy too much. I mentioned earlier that our own literary philosophical historians in Latin America and in Spain, we did that as well. We just assumed that existentialism in Latin America was mimetic, a copy.
PJ (12:14.411)
Hmm.
Edwin Murillo (12:23.302)
and absolutely subordinated to the European Academy. So we did it ourselves. The very first historians I ever read in Spanish, publishing in the 40s and 50s, did this themselves. I think that, I believe that it's just a almost knee-jerk reaction.
to just about anything that comes out of Latin America, a subsequent complex that is just almost built into how Latin America is viewed. And again, we in Latin America have also contributed to this mythology of always being subsequent.
Edwin Murillo (13:19.046)
always maybe being peripheral. Now, and I've thought about it this way as well, I mean, yes, maybe, you know, Latin America is peripheral, right, of the quote-unquote first world of Western civilization, but peripheral as in we are within the imaginary circle of what Western civilization, the first world might be, but within it, which means we're participating in all
PJ (13:37.048)
Hmm.
Edwin Murillo (13:47.47)
cultural means and all cultural production means I mean anything that you might think of as a first world phenomenon Of course Latin America has to be in the discussion
just the same way the United States is. I mean, we were all colonies of the European powers, and naturally there is going to be a dialogue. However, thinking of the United States as subsequent has never really been an issue, because you know the United States is the center of the universe. So that we've never really had that problem here. However, Latin America, it has been
Edwin Murillo (14:35.015)
subjected or subservient to whatever the global phenomenon might be, Latin America will eventually bring up the rear. Well, this book I think addresses that mythology, at least when it comes to existentialism. We're right there. We're right there. If we think of existentialism and how historians have typically formulated the canon, they look to the middle of the 19th century as a
PJ (14:46.017)
Mm.
Edwin Murillo (15:02.718)
You know, they look to Kierkegaard, they look to Dostoevsky, they look to Nietzsche, Schopenhauer. So that's where I started as well. I started in the middle of the 19th century and that's why I was able to stumble upon, you know, the Brazilian Machado de Assis, and then of course the Colombian José Acución Silva that I just discussed previously. And again, the reason why I'm able to do this is because Latin America is part of the first world, however you want to define
Yes, they're pockets. We're part of the club. Absolutely. We're contributing members. We're part of the club. How could we not be? We speak European languages. We speak French. We speak Spanish. We speak Portuguese. So we are part of the conversation. I hope that answers the question. I think we have just always assumed a subsequence to everything.
PJ (15:33.942)
Certainly part of the Western world. Right.
Edwin Murillo (16:02.218)
Latin America. And it doesn't hold when you actually look at cultural production critically and historically the that subsequence doesn't hold.
PJ (16:14.666)
Yeah, and we had started to talk about this beforehand, but I think it kind of, as we talked about definition and exclusion, you gave a really fascinating example and then started moving on about identity and performative, performativity that you teach in Tennessee. And you noticed that students tried to hide their Southern accent, but then it would come out when they went home. Can you talk a little bit about that? I want to love the story.
but also what that shows and how that plays into this larger dynamic that we see about these myths we create for ourselves.
Edwin Murillo (16:53.65)
Absolutely, and that was a really interesting conversation. A lot of the themes that have been associated with existentialism deal with finding purpose in life, deal with the importance of other people or facticity in our day-to-day existence, deal with finding
projects in our life that fill us with an authentic sense of purpose. One of the fascinating conversations that existentialists had, and we were discussing Jean-Paul Sartre, but the Mexican philosopher Samuel Ramos did something very similarly, is the idea of who we are in terms of our identity and how we perform certain roles depending on the context, the situation, and what is needed in the moment.
of course, talks about, uses the great example of the waiter, right? That man isn't essentially a waiter, he's performing the role of the waiter. Samuel Ramos talks about masks. We wear masks as our persona and he was pointing to the fact that we construct the mask.
So we add and subtract things from this identity, which again points to the fact that humanity really is free, and we are purposefully creating this identity. And Samuel Ramos talks about how these identities, these masks, get us through particular situations, but they're also eternally evolving. So the mask that Edwin Murillo wore,
20 years ago is absolutely different from the mask that I'm wearing right this second as a professor who specializes in Latin American existentialism. And the point that we were talking about which is really interesting is that you know the existentialists have and are still talking about these identities and these performances and how we see that in the real world, how we see it manifest in the real world. The anecdote that I brought was in our class in the class I teach,
Edwin Murillo (19:02.36)
studies which discusses of course cultural identity, history, literature, philosophy, etc. And in one of these classes we were talking about how you know when we self-identify as US Americans or as Latin Americans or as Hispanics and as you mentioned I'm professor at UTC in Tennessee. When we were discussing you know cultural identities
We also started to discuss, well, how do you self-identify? And most of my students identify as Southerners or Tennesseans. And then we talk about also how, depending on where we are.
these students have their own masks. Because I noticed, you know, just this is just anecdotal and in the conversations that pop up in class sometimes. I remember a student that I did not immediately recognize as being Southern because they had this sort of journalistic English, right? No accent. And I'm like, where are you from? And then they're like, oh, you know, I'm from the South. I'm like, huh. I'm like, well.
don't sound Southern and they talked about how for job interviews or for internship interviews or when they're working they go into a neutral English because it makes them feel more comfortable because of naturally the negative stereotypes that are sometimes associated with that accent and I think that pointed to one of these really interesting existential points of performativity
identity, how do we construct those identities, and how do we choose to evolve from them? And then they let me know that, you know, well, depending on who they're talking to, that southern accent actually does pop up. And it's also for the purposes of identifying with a community. So when they're with, you know, their family or with people they feel closest to, they will...
Edwin Murillo (20:58.274)
fall back into that Southern accent to feel closer to that community that they're in. But when they're in an academic setting or a professional setting, they might fall more into the accepted standard, journalistic English. I think it's really fascinating because again, this is something that the existentialists were talking about, performativity and how we deal with it in the 21st century.
PJ (21:23.83)
Yeah, so my dad was born in Massachusetts. I was born in Connecticut. My mom was born in Florida and my wife was born in Alabama. So there's always been like this probably, you know, and yes, like the Yankee boy coming down and getting the Southern bell. That's been a reoccurring narrative in my family's history. But what's funny is that neither my mom nor my wife,
Edwin Murillo (21:38.338)
How very American.
PJ (21:51.49)
people don't think of them as having Southern accents until they start talking to their family. So when you mentioned that, I was like, I have literally seen this in action. And you know, we made fun of it because we're New Englanders. That's the default response. Like where did the y'all and the ain'ts all sudden pop up from? But it comes from, you know, fitting into these different communities. And as I've lived longer in central Florida.
For one, I think y'all as a second person plural is really useful, but also I do find myself slipping into it, right? Like it's like, you just, it's a natural thing. And so that's a great way to show it. Yeah. Right.
Edwin Murillo (22:31.518)
And it's a form of solidarity as well, right? Like, you know, you want to form part of that group. And to your point in Florida, you know, second, third and fourth generation Cuban Americans, their English is native, but it's very, like their English, that Hispanic English is very different from the Hispanic English in like Los Angeles.
or the Hispanic English in the northeast, right, like New Yorkers, those Hispanic Americans sound completely different from the Hispanic Americans you'll meet in Miami. Well, that's, that is if you actually hear some English in Miami, right, because Miami is part of Latin America, it just happens to be, you know, in Dade County, which I'm very happy for, but you know, it speaks to these identities that we produce and when we use them...
PJ (23:12.066)
Hehehe
Edwin Murillo (23:24.658)
and how we construct that mask and the choices we make in that construction. Who am I today? And my choice today was to wear this you know this blazer with this shirt and this you know pocket square.
and to try and standardize my English as much as possible. Which, you know, because PJ, you don't sound like you're from the Northeast. And I grew up in Texas, so I don't have that, you know, that drawl. And it's particularly for this purpose that we, you know, that we are here presenting this way. So, and again, these are issues.
PJ (23:51.182)
Right.
PJ (23:59.83)
Yeah, no, I've definitely gotten that you have no accent type of thing. Like I have the, what is it, the standard Midwest. I actually lived for a long time in the Midwest and it has definitely proved useful at times, right? Like that is the journalistic tone, the journalistic dialect. I actually, as you're talking about Miami and as the Hispanic...
population continues to grow. I homeschool two of my boys and we hit Spanish very hard, in large part because there's that solidarity aspect, right? Like, you should be able to talk to your neighbors. But this is a little bit of an off the wall question, but as you're talking about colonization, it kind of struck me that I'm just, this is a gap in my knowledge. I'm very familiar.
with the literary and language ties between England and America. I see that your book is part of the Iberian and Latin American studies. What are the ties like between Spain and Portugal from a language and literary standpoint? Obviously the language is shared. But when you talk about the world of letters...
and the literary influences back and forth, what is that like from the Iberian Peninsula to Latin America?
Edwin Murillo (25:37.378)
That's a wonderful question. I sometimes get the notion that these ideas of territories are much more a...
concern for academics than they are for philosophers and for creative writers, artists in general. I say that because there has been little to no, let me stress the no, antagonism between Spain and Portugal in terms of a literary philosophical conversation that I can think of. In other words,
whenever these writers are actually producing, they're not worried of looking like a copy of a Spanish writer or a copy of a Portuguese writer. The dialogues have always been open. And of course, in the first couple of, you know, centuries of Latin American existence,
the influence was much more Spain, Portugal to the colonies. But turn of the 19th century forward, the dialogue has been free flowing. Most of the most important literary philosophical figures in Latin America studied in Europe. And during...
social unrest and I'm thinking of like the Spanish Civil War, many progressive thinkers found refuge in Latin America. So that antagonism of like, oh, I'm better because I'm Spanish, and then you are because you're Colombian, or I'm better because I'm Colombian, because it in terms of artistic production hasn't been there. There hasn't been the, and I guess I'm
PJ (27:39.455)
Hmm.
Edwin Murillo (27:40.228)
in my opinion, when it comes to artists. Most of, and I'm thinking of José Acincion Silva, he quotes and references writers that are thought of as universal, freely, in all of his work. Machado de Assis, the Brazilian, can't stop referencing Shakespeare as one of his,
literary masters, nor can he stop referencing Blasey Pascal, the French philosopher. So there's that, there isn't that fear of not being taken, you know, seriously, I feel. They understand that, you know, art is a universal domain and
To your question, it's like the flow of ideas is perpetual and mutually beneficial.
PJ (28:48.746)
You know, this reminds me a lot. I had a scholar on to talk about Chinese history and she talked about how the emperor, in order to enforce his language, required that all requests to the court that were written had to be 100% grammatically correct and would himself take a red pen and mark it what was wrong and send it back. And of course this took like, you know, sending a letter back and forth was not easy and it would take considerable amount of time. So if you screwed up.
Edwin Murillo (28:55.512)
you know
Edwin Murillo (28:59.858)
required that all requests for the court that we're in had to be, well, can you send me back to the rep? And what can I sell to take away the pen? And so we're taking what was wrong and send it back, and of course, it's a good one. You know, sending it back to the court was not easy. And in fact, there were a lot of times that used to be that when we requested women to be in line and fill you out with this. And let's see that some of that anxiety and dismay. It's a...
PJ (29:18.198)
your request would be denied until you got it fixed. And it does seem that some of that anxiety of influence is a, and maybe I'm jumping too far here, but it seems like it could be connected a lot of ways to imperial ambitions, right? Like this idea of like, well, I need to be the one who's generating, I can't accept help. I have to be generating, you know, I have to be generating culture because we are the power.
Would you think that's a fair way to talk about it?
Edwin Murillo (29:53.07)
I do PJ. I don't, I am not in any way shape or form discounting the importance of like post-colonial thinking, post-colonial studies. I am in no way shape or form discounting the importance of studying Native American cultures, languages, civilizations, and maybe a finer point would be like the attempted erasure of Native American traditions. And when it
PJ (30:20.13)
Hmm.
Edwin Murillo (30:21.804)
like Afro descendant Afro diaspora traditions. I'm not I'm not saying that. But what I'm saying is that we should not essentialize Latin American production as only being authentic. If we talk about Native American issues, we should not be centralized Latin American topics as being authentic only if we discuss the atrocities of you know, slavery. What I'm saying is that
PJ (30:38.689)
Right.
Edwin Murillo (30:49.842)
it is all part of the greater discussion of Latin American cultural studies, literary studies, philosophical studies, and that these are all indispensable parts of, foundational parts of who we are, our history, our cultural identities, the diversity of our cultural identities.
but in my opinion when it comes to academic approaches we should not essentialize Latin America as only this one thing. Just like we should not essentialize Latin America as always subsequent or subservient to European masters, we should not also make Latin American studies in any field, in any specialty, specialization as
you know, only tethered to Native American issues, Afro-Diasporic issues, first world versus, you know, colonial or imperialistic thinking. I think that, um, that is short-sighted and would go against really existentialism as a whole, because again, it goes back to the idea of existence precedes essence, meaning we don't really have essence. We have to create it and we get to choose what that means. Well, I think the same would hold true for Latin American studies as a whole.
we would be able to focus on what is authentically, truly Latin American based on our perspectives. And that, again, that doesn't discount any other approach, but it doesn't essentialize it either.
PJ (32:30.346)
Yeah, and I want to make sure that I actually get to your book. So, one, thank you. So, like part of this, you mentioned him earlier. And so, can you talk a little bit about Machado Díazís and the art of existential deciphering? Because that's that first layer that you kind of get into. And it's, you know, I love that kind of as a way to get into
Edwin Murillo (32:34.442)
Hehehehe
Edwin Murillo (32:47.414)
Hehehe
PJ (32:59.946)
I don't think we'll get through the whole book. I think that that's an impossible goal, but maybe to give people an idea of where that starts like what time period are we talking about with Machado DSC's and what do you mean by existential deciphering?
Edwin Murillo (33:17.886)
Machado de Asís, fascinating historical figure. So where I came up with the idea of deciphering in terms of identity, Carlos Fuentes, the great Mexican writer, wrote an article for the LA Times where he...
he looked at Machado de Asis as one, the greatest Latin American writer of the 19th century, and I agree, but also as a interpreter of the Latin American soul. I'm not too sure, I can't remember if he actually uses that expression or I may have just made that up. In either case, Carlos Fuentes looked at Machado in that regard and
I'm using Machado because that's the traditional Brazilian way of addressing writers. They'll go with their first name or they'll just use one name. So it's not that we're on a first name basis. He's just universally known as Machado. So Machado was a journalist. He was the president of the Brazilian Academy of Portuguese. Wrote novels, short stories, poetry, plays, chronicles.
PJ (34:16.61)
Hehehehe
Edwin Murillo (34:36.842)
So as you might imagine, his career spanned 50 plus years. He starts publishing in the 1860s and he publishes all the way to the end of his life in like the 1910s. And he publishes again, everything from like short stories, chronicles, journalistic newspaper articles, poetry, a little bit of theater. And then of course he's most known for his novels. And what I think he does and what I mean by like, decipher of Latin American identity
does become a sort of literary documentarian of the hypocrisy of quote-unquote modern Brazilian symbolizing Latin American well-to-do society. He depicts well-to-do society because he is a social climber in both its most
Edwin Murillo (35:35.47)
uncomplimentary, unflattering ways. He talks about the hypocrisy of a bureaucratic system that seems to reward incompetence and absolute being unoriginal and how these unoriginal, incompetent individuals seem to shoot up the social ladder while people who have real value and creativity and could offer some substantial contributions seem to always, you know,
be met with just the most difficult circumstances. And in that regards, I think Machado is very contemporary and very modern.
the jokes are always right like you know the people who are at the top are absolutely incompetent and we just don't understand what sort of you know cosmic realities had to come to being for them to reach those heights while like the really valuable people who could really contribute to our society don't seem to ever catch a break well Machado discusses that right he also discusses how life is a is a brutal endeavor
and how destiny, if there is such a thing, is absolutely absent and indifferent and could care less to the sufferings of humanity. So what I do is I discuss a few of his short stories where the protagonists begin by trying to be poets.
and you know life is completely indifferent to their suffering so they contemplate suicide but they always at the very end seem to turn away from suicide as an option and I think that points to the greater message in Machado which is even though life is brutal and harsh and indifferent and quote unquote unfair it is absolutely worth living.
PJ (37:15.682)
Hmm.
Edwin Murillo (37:28.19)
I think that's the greater message in what Machado does. A few of his characters, I'm thinking of one particularly, King Caborbas, he is a street philosopher. He literally, his advice to one of the characters in Machado's book, Brascubas, is to stop whining. I think that's the greater message in what Machado does.
PJ (37:28.466)
Hmm.
Edwin Murillo (37:51.262)
And literally, and I'm trying to work from memory here, his advice is, and I quote, savor life.
PJ (37:58.242)
Hmm.
Edwin Murillo (38:00.702)
Borbas is a high middle class, pseudo aristocratic individual who has every advantage in life but still complains. Borbas is literally a street philosopher, right? He's homeless and when they meet in the street he's literally like, you know, stop your whining. The universe doesn't care, you know, save our life. And I think that's the greater message in Machado.
PJ (38:22.295)
Okay.
Edwin Murillo (38:28.756)
circumstance, you know, life is still worth living. And again, I think that plays out because so many of his poets contemplate suicide, you know, because, you know, they can't be with the woman they want to be with, they can't be with the love of their life, they can't find success at poet, as poets, they can't find success in the business world. Destiny seems to be against them, but at the last moment they still will choose life.
And I think that's the larger argument in Machado. And I think that plays out in our day-to-day life as well, you know.
PJ (39:00.554)
What? It's that.
PJ (39:05.214)
Yeah, absolutely. Even as you talk about this, this reminds me quite a bit of Camus, who would come much later than Machado, right? When you look at the plague, the stranger, this idea of embracing absurdity, because life is still worth living even if it is absurd. Those themes, and maybe I'm mishearing you, so I just want to make sure I'm tracking with you, but this kind of goes to your point that
Edwin Murillo (39:30.566)
I think that's a good point.
PJ (39:34.954)
I mean, this isn't even concurrent. Machado is before Camus, right? And we look at Camus like, oh, he's the ultimate, you know, he's one of the ultimate existentialist writers. And it's like, well, Machado was writing the same thing decades beforehand.
Edwin Murillo (39:51.736)
thank you for bringing Kemu up. If I'm not mistaken, when you open up the myth of Sisyphus, right at the very beginning, he discusses suicide as the only truly philosophical question. And of course, Kemu is referring to Hamlet, right? Hamlet from the 1600s.
PJ (40:13.803)
Hmm.
Edwin Murillo (40:16.79)
The only real question there is in our life is to be or not to be. Is life itself worth living or should we just end it all? Well, to that very question, Camus said, absolutely life is worth living. We must rebel. If we're gonna go down, go down swinging.
PJ (40:21.226)
or not to be.
Edwin Murillo (40:42.29)
Dylan Thomas, right? Rage, rage against the dying of the light. Absolutely. Camus believes that the answer to Hamlet's question is yes. We must continue to struggle. And Machado makes that very same point, I believe, in all his characters. Which is why I mentioned earlier that Machado never got tired of referring to Shakespeare and particularly to Hamlet. In fact, Machado...
is the translator of hamlet soliloquy into Portuguese. And.
PJ (41:17.218)
Oh.
Edwin Murillo (41:19.546)
his ability as a translator, phenomenal, because I finally came upon his translation. And not only is it poetically beautiful to read in Portuguese, semantically, the meaning, the nuances are all there. So I mean, obviously Machado is a genius, and it must be nice to be a genius, I would not know. But yeah, he does an amazing job with it. But it's to your point, PJ. Camus is talking about
PJ (41:36.158)
Hmm
PJ (41:39.498)
Hahaha
Edwin Murillo (41:49.258)
you know whether life is worth living or not in the 1940s I believe mythicis is like from 43 or 42 or 43 and my child was discussing these very questions in like 1880 so he does predate him by like 60 years which is which is fascinating I believe
PJ (42:03.276)
Yeah.
PJ (42:06.812)
Alright.
PJ (42:10.202)
And this is so I've done a lot of reading in alienation, those sorts of things with like Kafka and, you know, the European story to the American story factories, those sorts of things. The way that people are put into boxes in I won't say postmodern in modern culture, the way that everyone was kind of
forced into these kind of rigid structures and this bureaucracy. And I'm curious, what does alienation, how is it similar in Latin America and in Iberia, and how is it different? Are there similarities? Are there differences?
Edwin Murillo (42:56.042)
I believe the answer to that question is yes on both counts. If you remember Dostoyevsky's notes from underground, the underground man is a middle-aged bureaucrat. If you remember Kafka as the metamorphosis, there again another you know maybe not a middle-aged but you know approaching middle-aged
PJ (43:04.672)
Mm-hmm.
Edwin Murillo (43:23.85)
Machado de Asís does the same thing with several of his characters. They're also middle-aged bureaucrats. Argentine writers like Oneti and Sabato also have protagonists that are middle-aged bureaucrats. It's this sense of anonymity and alienation that our quote-unquote modern society has created through
a very bureaucratic system, which again, the existentialists seem to be pointing to that. Our system creates the very malcontents that we later have to, I guess, deal with, engage. And to your point, Dostoyevsky,
PJ (44:05.582)
Mm.
Edwin Murillo (44:11.166)
Even Sartre, Sartre's novel, Nausea, the protagonist, Antoine Roquentin, he's not a bureaucrat, but he might be, he's a historian, sort of a bureaucracy. I mean, literary professors were part of the academic bureaucracy. Well, his malcontent, Sartre's character, right, is because he's writing a history, right? He's working, and his very, you know, work causes this sense of anguish.
PJ (44:21.139)
Hehehehe
Edwin Murillo (44:38.838)
Well, these characters in Latin America, I'm thinking of Machado de Aziz, I'm thinking of Labrador Ruiz, I'm thinking of Graciliano Ramos' character, the last chapter in this book. He is a bureaucrat in every sense of the word, and he's absolutely dissatisfied with his purposeful, or lack thereof, purposeful existence, his meaningless existence, because he is...
literally reenacting the same meaningless day over and over and over again. And that creates that sense of alienation because it seems like, you know, the herd, the rest of society, is moving on contently, but he can't because he can't find the quiet in that repetitive existence.
It reminds me of the Harold Ramis film, Groundhog Day with Bill Murray. Keeps repeating the same day over and over and over again. And then there's a scene where he's like at a bar with a couple of locals and he talks, he confesses to them. He's like, you guys don't understand. I'm repeating the same day and it's driving me crazy. And the two gentlemen that are accompanying him in the scene, they're like, well, you just described my life.
PJ (46:03.022)
Mm.
Edwin Murillo (46:03.874)
and they're talking about like they literally repeat the same day over and over and over again and that causes that sense of you know disaffection alienation anguish there are of course some happy wanderers out there that aren't burdened with consciousness but
the you know, the Bill Murray character is burdened with that consciousness. The Graciliano Ramos character is burdened with that consciousness. And they can't seem to unburden themselves is like they can't go back to a pre consciousness state. And what do they have to do now that they're realizing that, you know, the minutes are ticking away, life is ticking away, what do I do now?
So I don't know, I mean, sometimes some of my students are like, well, is it better just to be blissfully ignorant? And, um, I think that points to the matrix film, right? There's that moment where, where Neo gets to choose blissful ignorance or the truth. And the truth can be a terrifying reality. And then there's a character in that film who chooses to go back into the matrix. And he's like, no, ignorance is bliss.
PJ (47:04.558)
Okay.
Edwin Murillo (47:23.038)
And I'm not too sure that existentialists, generally speaking, make a judgment on that, you know, whether it's better to be conscious or whether it's better to be blissfully unconscious. They don't make a judgment. They just understand that those are two realities. And I am not exactly convinced which is better, nor would I want to pass judgment on either. I think that would be a choice for every individual.
PJ (47:23.402)
Yeah.
PJ (47:28.587)
Hmm.
Edwin Murillo (47:52.79)
Would you rather not know that you are reliving your own personal Groundhog Day and just be content with that? Or would you rather know that you're reliving the same exact day over and over and over again? And then like is there a greater purpose? I mean, I don't know. Again, I don't I wouldn't want to rush to judgment.
PJ (47:53.207)
What?
PJ (48:14.35)
I mean, and maybe I'm looking at it the wrong way, but it seems to me that's not entirely a choice that people have. It seems more a matter of capacity. Am I wrong in saying that?
Edwin Murillo (48:15.106)
I mean, and maybe I'm looking at it the wrong way, but it seems to me that's not entirely a choice that people have. It seems more a matter of capacity. Am I wrong in saying that? From a personal perspective? Or just wanting to talk about that. Okay, yeah, yeah. Yes, I agree. I think that all societies are a form of indoctrination.
PJ (48:30.386)
Or just what are your thoughts on that?
Edwin Murillo (48:44.402)
whether we know it or not, whether we accept it or not. So there are, I'm sure, and again, I am speaking in such broad generalizations that I ask, I apologize before I get into this, but from what I've seen, right, from what philosophers have dealt with in Latin America and what writers have dealt with in Latin America, I would...
venture to say that they agree with you as well. There are individuals that simply could not fathom being orphaned, being free. I think that there is some truth to that character in The Matrix. Individuals that, given the choice, would prefer to be blissfully ignorant. And then there's others.
can't, simply cannot. Now maybe they what happened is or which is what happened to me, I happened upon a writer and after reading let's say Nietzsche, I could not unread him. And you know, and I'm like, oh no, what now? So yeah, I think you know, you're probably right, there are individuals that maybe couldn't fathom.
PJ (49:58.2)
Right.
Edwin Murillo (50:11.318)
these concepts and would at the same time reject them. Because it feels safer to be part of the herd. It feels safer to believe in a Judeo-Christian God. It might be safer to have faith. It might feel better to have faith. And here again, I wouldn't pass judgment on it. I wouldn't.
I wouldn't say, well, you know, you're ignoring this other part. I don't know if that sort of existence isn't better than the existence of being an atheist. Because not all existentialists are atheists. Kierkegaard was absolutely a Christian. Miguel de Unamuno was absolutely a Christian. They understood life as suffering, but they found solace in belief.
Satra and Camus were atheists. They absolutely saw existence as brutal, indifferent, and suffering. But they found solace in nothingness. They found solace in death. We shall all rest when we're dead. Or you have somebody like Pascal, right, who saw life in the universe as absolutely indifferent.
And I do believe that Pascal was probably more leaning towards a Christian ideology because he wrote, you know, everybody remembers Pascal's wager. It's better to believe in God just in case there is one. So, so, uh, you know, just in case I'm covering all my bases. Why not? So, um, I don't know. I, uh, you know, I do believe that it's difficult.
It might not be possible for some, but I would not venture to say, well, it's better this way, or it's better that way. It's better to believe. It's better not to believe. It's better to be conscious of our freedom, or it's better not to believe and have faith that there is this greater being watching over us, you know, making sure that the balance of good and evil doesn't tilt more one way or the other.
PJ (52:27.63)
So I, and I will confess one, thank you for coming on today. The confession is like, this is just a gigantic gap in my own education. I don't know a lot about Latin American literature. So I have what is probably a truly painful question for you. But what, if you could, for someone who is coming to this sort of,
Edwin Murillo (52:28.174)
So I, and I will confess, thank you for coming out today. The question is like, this is a gigantic gap in the knowledge that I don't know a lot about. I don't know the answer. So I have, what's the question? Well, if you could. So,
PJ (52:56.834)
to coming to Latin American literature. What would be three great books for them to start with? What would be three great novels for them to read? Ha ha!
Edwin Murillo (53:05.931)
Okay, so this has been given all the philosophical questions we've been dealing with. This has been without a doubt the most difficult question.
PJ (53:18.136)
Mm-hmm. I knew that would be, I knew that this is just a totally unfair question. I apologize.
Edwin Murillo (53:25.539)
Apology accepted. So I'm you know I'm the type of you know a professor that must be entertained at while I'm reading or viewing films or what-have-you or listening to music.
There are certain writers that I understand in our own tradition are absolutely important, but are too difficult, in my own estimation, are too difficult to get through because they're just not entertaining. Literally, they're more important than they are quote unquote good. So, that is to say that, you know, my response is going to be completely biased. I would say...
PJ (53:56.958)
Yeah.
Edwin Murillo (54:08.186)
know when it comes to Latin America start at the beginning and make it to 2023 right you can't go wrong but if I had to give you three writers just from Latin America I don't I'm not going to venture into Spain because there'll be other specialists that could do that or Portugal if I had to do Latin America I and you want actual titles right not writers
PJ (54:36.986)
Yeah, well, either one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I like I mean, I want to know. I mean, I would love to dig further into this and, you know, I think three like what are three entertaining like I mean, I'm gonna be doing this in my free time. So I would entertaining would be useful. Right.
Edwin Murillo (54:53.277)
Oh.
Okay. Um, hmm.
Edwin Murillo (55:01.098)
Let's see. I would begin with the conquest. It's indispensable to start there. And I would begin with Bartolome de las Casas. And if you have to begin anywhere, I would begin with his work, which is historical, right? This is a primary text. A short account of the destruction of the indies.
Bartolomé de las Casas is fascinating because he's the first advocate for universal human rights. He fought for the recognition of the Native Americans as humans, because they were considered not human. So I would absolutely have to start with Bartolomé's A Short Account of the Destruction of the Indies. It's a fascinating account, and what makes it even more fascinating is that it's a history.
right? So it's tragically entertaining, it's fascinating. Then I would recommend anything by Machado de Assis because Latin America, as you know, is an extremely diverse region.
So our two primary languages are Spanish and Portuguese. I would like somebody to read a little bit of Spanish. Of course, this would be in translation, and then of course, Portuguese. Machado de Assis and his 1881 novel, A Posthumous Memoirs of Bras Cubas. Bras Cubas has died and then decides to write his memoirs, which is a fascinating concept for a novel.
So I would go there. And then in the 20th century, I only have a hundred years to choose from. No big deal. Go back to Spanish and go with Gabriel Garcia Marquez's A Hundred Years of Solitude. A fascinating novel, highly entertaining, page-turter, I mean. So if I had to do those three.
PJ (56:48.8)
Oh, no, no big deal at all. Yeah.
Edwin Murillo (57:09.822)
You know, that's where I would start. I got the colony, I've got the 19th century, and I've got the 21st century.
PJ (57:16.918)
Yeah, and again, thank you. I realize that was, I know that was painful, but that's wonderful. That's a wonderful place for anyone listening to this to start.
Edwin Murillo (57:21.603)
That was the hardest question.
Edwin Murillo (57:30.138)
And hopefully it'll generate some discussion, right? People will comment, oh, you should have done this, I should have done that. And I'm like, I know, forgive me.
PJ (57:34.452)
No, yeah.
PJ (57:37.962)
Nothing like creating a list to create controversy. That's true.
Edwin Murillo (57:40.746)
Right, right. I'm just showing you all my prejudice here.
PJ (57:45.73)
So I want to be respectful of your time. As we draw to a close here, what is one thing that you would leave, besides reading one of these three books, what is something that you would leave our audience with to think about? From an existentialist point of view, or from a Latin American point of view, what is something you would leave for them to just kind of chew on and think as they go throughout their week after listening to this episode?
Edwin Murillo (58:18.85)
Fascinating question. I guess it gets that I'm a professor and because I am still a language professor, you know, teaching basic Spanish, I consider myself, as most other professors do, as a builder of bridges.
a builder of community cultural bridges. And beyond my very specific research into existentialism, what I hope, and this is what I close the book with, what I hope that my book does is creates conversations or initiates conversations that are ongoing. I find this to be really important because I happen to be a US Hispanic.
and I happen to be working in the United States. And I really try in the classroom and with my research to an extent, create a sense of Pan-America, meaning.
all the Americas are truly what we should be referencing when we say American. Am I an American? Absolutely. I am a U.S. American. I am a Latin American and I'm a U.S. Hispanic. So I'm hoping that this work here and my work in general helps to create that dialogue because, unfortunately, and it's not only true with the United States,
There is a continuously growing tribal sentiment in our country. And we're going to see it even more next year, once election season starts. And you're going to see, once again, that almost eternally recurrent idea of putting us into groups, creating division. You are not American enough.
PJ (59:52.493)
Hmm.
PJ (59:55.679)
Mmm.
Edwin Murillo (01:00:14.946)
to be in this country or you are not, you know, patriotic enough, right, as a Latin American. You should just be an American. And I hope that when people read my work.
PJ (01:00:23.01)
Hmm.
Edwin Murillo (01:00:31.094)
They realize that what we really are is a pan-American reality. And to be Hispanic is to be at the very core of what it means to be a US American. And these dialogues, these cultural bridges are what's really necessary.
Tribalism is absolutely dangerous. And we've seen the effects of that sort of nativist ideology and the effects have always been catastrophic.
PJ (01:00:51.831)
Hmm.
Edwin Murillo (01:01:02.834)
If we can think of Latin America as part of a larger American cultural identity, then I think in this country, we would be more at ease with thinking of Hispanic as being part of the cultural thread of what it means to be a US American. We do it every once in a while. We do it when we're celebrating Hispanic Heritage Month or when we're celebrating Cinco de Mayo,
invention right Cinco de Mayo is US American has little to do with Mexico but we've learned to do that with other European descendants we're all little Irish st. Patrick's Day
We are all a little German when we're like celebrating Oktoberfest. All of us! We've learned to do that with the other European centers of our US American identity. I think we still need to do that when it comes to Hispanic. The Hispanic part of the American, we're still working towards that. And I hope that you know...
PJ (01:02:09.514)
Hmm.
Edwin Murillo (01:02:10.906)
book like this might make you think of the Americas on a larger scale, as opposed to thinking, oh, that's what's happening over there. I'm like, no, philosophically, creatively, they're all part of a similar conversation. And that holds true with our history, our languages. I mean, again, Spanish and Portuguese, these are European languages, you know, just like English and French are. And
We have to, you know, be more comfortable with that idea of it not being something different. It's not different. It's part of a greater whole.
PJ (01:02:46.398)
Like the existentialists and their affirmation of life, what an incredible and encouraging and hopeful way to end. Dr. Murillo, thank you so much.
Edwin Murillo (01:02:57.782)
PJ, thank you so much. This has been entirely too much fun.