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Interesting people, insightful points of view and incredible stories on what’s popping and not popping in marketing, tech, and culture you can use to win immediately. Brands, Beats and Bytes boldly stands at the intersection of brand, tech and culture. DC and Larry are fascinated with stories and people behind some of the best marketing in the business. No matter how dope your product, if your marketing sucks your company may suck too. #dontsuck
DC: Let's go Brand Nerds. We are still in the first quarter of the year and we are coming back with some hits, LT. Today, we are going to talk a bit about the name of our podcast as a frame for our guests. Y'all already know what it is. We are Brands, Beats, and Bytes. Sometimes we have guests that can talk about brands. Sometimes we have guests that can talk about bytes on the text. And sometimes we have, uh, folks on the show who can talk about beats LT, this next gentleman can talk about all three of them. He's got a stellar brand background. He's a CMO. He's a CTO. So he's got bytes and the area where he does business LT, sometimes you hear beats in the background, the music. So he's got all three of these things working. And then there's a bonus Brand Nerds. You all know I'm from Detroit. I think very highly of Midwesterners. Very highly. This, this gentleman happens to be across a little lake from where I grew up in Detroit.
He's from, uh, from, uh, the, the Chi town area. And by the way, Brand Nerds, if you've never been to Chicago in the summer, you have to go like " summertime Chi" is actually a thing. Uh, there's only one thing I'm going to say that I have an issue with before even going into introducing our guest LT. And that is, I am a Pistons fan, I am a Lions fan, and I hate all Chicago sports. Aside from that, LT, tell us who we have in the building today.
LT: Oh, I will do that in a second, D, but I have to second your Chicago in the summertime. There's no better place than Chicago in the summertime, because people really appreciate it there, too. So yes, DC we have Dan Ali in the house today. Welcome, Dan.
Dan Ali: How's it going? Thank you for having me.
LT: We're really excited to have you, Dan. And so okay, Brand Nerds, Dan has a unique and super cool background, which DC did a great job of alluding to. Let's get into it. So Dan is a Pakistani immigrant who spends most of his formative years in Naperville, Illinois, as DC alluded to, just outside of Chicago. And he attends Indiana University, where he goes to the I. U. Kelly School of Business and earns a degree in business economics and public policy. So the beginning of Dan's career is in retail, where he starts as a management intern at Macy's, which is prestigious, by the way. And then moves over to Toys R Us, where he spends two years in customer service, and then becomes a store manager, where Brand Nerds, he is the youngest manager nationwide, and leads 40 plus employees to highest output metrics in the region. That's really impressive as a young individual. We like to say right?
DC: Youngin'
LT: also he's already thinking like a marketer. He proposes and helps deploy the digital rewards are us program, which is really cool. So then he gets a very interesting new opportunity moving out of retail and joining United Airlines as a Revenue Management Analyst. before being promoted to Senior Analyst. So, okay, Brand Nerds. It's now the late 2010s, and Dan has really figured out how important analytics is, and he is leaning all the way in. He joins Groupon first as a Senior Analyst, and then he's promoted to Global Finance Manager before being promoted again to Head of Strategy and Analytics, where he is instrumental with other team members in helping take Groupon Plus from thousands of transactions a quarter to millions, all happening in less than a year. So after this excellent success, Dan moves onward and upward, becoming Senior Director and Head of Global Strategy in Analytics at GymPass. GymPass works with more than 15,000 companies, helping their employees move, eat, and sleep, and feel better with access to fitness and wellness partners in subscriptions that cost up to 50 percent less than traditional memberships.
So in this role, Dan hires the strategy and analytics team from scratch. He redesigns all underlying code to be usable and develops most of the reporting used by the company every day, which helps transform the company into a true data driven culture. So of course, with this great work, he earns a promotion, becoming VP head of Global Strategy and Analytics.
And, and that's globally, by the way. And that's also with finance operations, product and marketing first reporting through the CFO and then the CEO, where he's integral in key decisions for country expansion, fundraising, and growth. So now Dan goes the entrepreneurial route. Where he becomes founder CEO of Anycurb, where they create a proprietary algorithm identifying off market homes that would sell with a market price offer, and after two years they are acquired.
So while still at Anycurb, Dan also becomes GM of BlinkHealth, where he and his team build and deploy transformational real time data packages to pharmaceutical manufacturers. He leads marketing and design, including the renaming of Blink's pharma program, which he renames to Blink RX, and creates um, a GTM, which is go to a go to market playbook for the pharma field team, resulting in hypergrowth.
In early 2022, Dan joins XPASS, which is part of a larger company, Xponential, as their President and then he transitions to be chief marketing and technology officer for Xponential, the big company. So Xponential Fitness is the largest global franchiser of boutique health and wellness brands. Through its mission to make boutique health and wellness accessible to everyone, the company operates a diversified platform of ten brands, including Club Pilates, which is the largest Pilates brand in the U. S., Cycle Bar, the largest indoor cycling brand, and Stretch Lab, the largest assisted stretching brand all in the U. S. So Brand Nerds, we are really excited for this one. Welcome to Brands Beats and Bytes, Dan Ali.
Dan Ali: The dating profile is good.
DC: Not too bad, not too bad.
Dan Ali: That's good, I liked it, I liked it.
LT: Good stuff, Dan.
Dan Ali: We're down memory lane. Um, no, I think, I think it's uh, it's awesome. I think the cool thing that, the cool opportunity you have in the United States is the ability to just move around and find what you love. You know, like typically, in a lot of countries you have this fear of just like moving around, and here it's so easy to to keep exploring until you find what really resonates with you. And I think it took me, I loved everything that I did across the path, but I found myself in a position where I love walking in every day. When I leave on Friday, I can't wait till Monday. My girlfriend hates that I work on Saturdays and Sundays, but it's because I love it. Um, and I think it's just really important to find something and transitioning from, uh, a, you know, data driven role. And we'll talk more about this to a marketing role is pretty difficult. And people do that through, you know, going back and getting their MBAs. And, uh, you know, it's a difficult path to take it from actually transitioning your career, particularly if you're really, really good at something, but it does create the foundational path to get to marketing.
Um, because being a marketer, as you already know, is. It's very, very difficult and ever changing and finding what makes you really special. Um, you know, it's hard to define. You're either that person that can make Nike ads and, and believe that the impressions are leading the way and, or you have to be a very scientific, have a scientific approach to it, um, or, you know, mixing the data and the art of it all and bringing it together and there's just so many different mixes out there. Um, and you overlay that with the world of marketing. That's just constantly changing new platforms coming in at a complete new rate. And so I think you have to almost move around to find what you love. I have a very, uh, a very strong perspective that I have. Um, And, you know, I love what I do and I don't foresee myself leaving. Um, I just, just love it. So.
DC: Excellent brother. So Dan, whenever LT does his opening, I like to watch the face of our guests. Cause it's a bit like, like you, you were about to be brought on stage in the, in the emcee is laying down. This is who was about to step to the mic.
So all of that you did there. Great LT does a fantastic job of that. But he's stating what, uh, what has been done, the facts, facts of the game. But there were a couple of things that he said that, uh, I have a personal connection to, I didn't realize that I would, Dan. One is the fact that you were, uh, at the Kelly Business School at Indiana University.
My mentor, one of my mentors, his name is Steve Horn. He graduated from IU, Kelly, uh, uh, the Kelly Business School there. And without him, Dan, I'm not here talking to you now. So that's one connection. That's one. The second connection is you in your early days as a pup started at Macy's, a retail place in management. I started as a pup, Dan, at a retail place in Michigan called Hudson's. It was called J. L. Hudson's. Like a Macy's, it's long since been, um, um, uh, purchased and turned into something else. But I too started, uh, I started there. And then my third connection is this, before I get into the Get Comfy questions. Is, uh, my train, one of my trainers was trying to tell me about assisted stretching and I'm like, what the hell is assisted stretching? Like, I know how to stretch. Don't be talking to me about assisted stretching. Dan, Larry, Brand Nerds, once you've had a session of assisted stretching, you're never going back. You're, you're never going back. So those are my three connections before I get into my, um, oh. Question around.
LT: Hey, Dan, DC is expensive. He's expensive as a spokesperson. Just letting you know. Now, you know, um, that was a really good call out for you.
Dan Ali: Thank you. I love that.
DC: If we'll send you the invoice, brother, next section is Get Comfy. I was going to ask you a question. Uh, Dan, after hearing you talk, I'm going to ask a different question when it's one that I asked folks. Uh, in Atlanta, who are not from Atlanta. Here's what I ask them, Dan and LT. I'll be out, uh, someone will ask me where I'm from, I'll tell them I'm from Detroit, but I've been here long enough, longer than I've lived anywhere in the world. So this is like home. I consider myself an adopted AT alien. And I ask them, when they're from somewhere else, Dan, I say, what were your perceptions of what Atlanta would be like And how did that compare to the reality after you moved here, what's the difference. So then I'm going to say this to you, brother, you being in the, in the US, did you move here in the US or were you born here in the US?
Dan Ali: Oh, I moved from Pakistan.
DC: Okay, you were back then. Okay. All right. God, how old were you?
Dan Ali: I was nine, nine.
DC: Okay. So, so, okay. So you were old enough based on your thoughts.
You're, you're, you're chilling in Pakistan. All right. And now the family says, yo, Dan and your siblings, we're moving to the U S we're going to Naperville. All right. So based on what you thought it would be like being here in the U S versus actually being here, what's the difference? What's the Delta?
Dan Ali: Yeah, it's a great question. So first, we moved to Devon Street. So like I'm from a, you know, Pakistani background. So there's a street in Chicago, the Chicagoland area called Devon Street. It's where you have all the restaurants. So what you'll see a lot is when people move to certain neighborhood from like Pakistan, you'll see them move and associate to areas that are very, you know, Pakistani, you know, just job.
So growing up until I was nine, you know, I lived in Pakistan, there's a part I lived in the UK. Okay. Transcribed But when I moved to America, the whole, you know, what America is known for is big, right? So when we got picked up by my uncle, he took us to his apartment. I remember getting to the apartment and looking up at the building, and I thought he owned the entire building, because your mindset is like, they own everything, right? So you're going to walk in, you're going to get your own apartment, you and your sister is going to have her own apartment, you're going to have your own apartment. The parents are going to have their own apartment and we walked into a two, two bedroom apartment where now we were all sharing, right? And so like it was an instant just like, whoa, like this is actually different because everyone perceives it as big, right?
Now food wise, everything is big, right? We all know that and there's healthier food outside of the U. S. But in terms of like living spaces, we always thought of big and huge. And so. That was my first into intro into that. Um, interesting.
DC: Interesting.
LT: That is.
DC: Yeah. Uh, so I've got, I've got a couple of follow up questions, Larry, anything keep going.
All right. So spell the name of the street, Devon. How's the spell?
Dan Ali: That's D E V O N. Devon street. That's the best Pakistani food you can find in America. Honestly, is it on Devon street?
LT: Good to know.
DC: Okay.
All right. Thank you. Uh, I've not been there. Uh, before, but the next time I'm in Chicago, brother, I'm going, I know,
Dan Ali: and I live, I live now. I live in Newport Beach, California. So you got the Pakistan Devon Street, Naperville, Newport Beach, California. And so like, I was like, welcome my window right now. And it's It's sunny in December, and I just wonder how in the world, you know, you went from, you know, that day, day zero coming to that building, thinking it's your building, living in a one. I mean, anything in America is achievable, uh, put your mind to it.
DC: All right. So the great segue, um, here is what I believe about, uh, immigrants coming to this country. Um, they're built different Dan. All right. So for me, um, I, as you, I mentioned, I grew up in Detroit. My mom picked my university for me. So I went to an HBCU, Historically Black College University in Alabama from Detroit.
Then, when I was at the school, literally I was walking around campus for two weeks. And I did not recognize that people were saying hello to me. Good morning, good afternoon, how... because people don't speak to one another like that in Detroit. So I was truly a fish out of water, and I had to grow up. When you talk about people who decide, I'm leaving my home country, I may or may not know the language, I may or may not know the customs, I'm taking my children with me, it's it's like Entrepreneurship on steroids with massive, massive personal implications, yet they do it. So can you tell me a little bit about what you learned from your parents in making that move and what, what impact that had on you? And if you have siblings, your siblings.
Dan Ali: Yeah, that's a great question. So my dad, um, my dad is one of the most studied, like he literally studies nonstop. And so he used to do that as a kid.
LT: What's your dad's name?
Dan Ali: My dad's name is Mohamed Merchant. So my dad in Pakistan, similar to the ACT or SAT in Pakistan, they conduct a test. And in that test, they rank you one out of whatever, however many people took it. So it's not like you get a 33, 28 on the ACT and You actually get rated throughout the entire country.
My dad came in second place on that, on that exam. So my dad, when he was younger, got a scholarship to the United States and his parents couldn't afford the plane ticket. So, like, he always grew up with that kind of chip on his shoulder, right? And so eventually he found a way to come to the United States and, um, you know, he was on track to being, you know, a CTO in Pakistan. He came to America and he reset and restarted, right? Because typically what happens is you reset and you restart. So I have a very interesting take on motivation and what drives people's motivation and I think there's, it's, it's your connection to your parents to what you said is extraordinary in terms of motivating you.
In my, in my world, it was the fact that I saw my dad and like how he sacrificed his career to build a better career for us. And so that's the chip on my shoulder. If I look at my dad, what drove my dad was he grew up in a home where like they didn't have access to capital to go and achieve whatever they wanted to achieve.
And so for him, his success was sending his kids to any school they wanted to go to. And so everyone finds their unique driving force. Um, and they kind of use it and leverage it to, to achieve whatever they achieve. Um, and use it as a, as a positive thing. And so I think it's interesting because I do think people are built differently depending on what they've gone through and how big it is on their shoulder.
LT: Yes. D can I add in something here? Um, what's extraordinary about your parents because your mom had to come be part of this as well. Like they were doing the ultimate pay it forward, right? Like they were saying, we're going to do whatever it takes to help our children, the next generation really achieve their dreams, right?
Um, and that'll be what will suffice. That's what you're really saying will suffice for us if we see that happen. So you have a lot of pressure, Dan, which you've obviously fulfilled in a great way because you know, your folks are saying, Hey, man, you know, We're setting everything up for you. You better take it and run with it and do the best you can with it.
And clearly you have, which is really cool. Um, I just want to add one quick thing. I love the immigrant story and I love it's your story, Dan. So hopefully you're cool with us sharing this because we have nothing but the greatest respect and kudos for your folks and you and your family to do what you've done.
Um, and that is wonderful about this country. You know, I will also, I want to add this point and this is very important point. Um, for my, uh, my brother, DC. Um, I don't know if you're familiar with the book, The Warmth of Other Sons, which is by Isabel Wilkerson, which is a Pulitzer Prize winning book. And that book is about the black migration. From the South to the North and one of the things that came out greatly in that book is that many of the African Americans who left the South left Jim Crow awful Jim Crow South in the early 20th century, they were just like immigrants. They literally had to take everything that they knew and pick up. And have, I'm going to use, you know, my, I'm, I'm Jewish Dan, the chutzpah and the determination and the grit to say, I'm going to make a better life for both me and my, and my future. And, and obviously D your, you know, your, your folks, and I think your grandparents did that for you in coming from the South up to, uh, up to the North.
So the immigrant story is endemic to the United States of America story, and I think it needs to always be highlighted in a great way. I'm off my soapbox now.
Dan Ali: No, I love that. And I think like, you know, I think every immigrant's experience is also different, right? Like my, I told you my dad who grew up in not a very financially secure environment.
My mom grew up very financially secure environment, but she had an arranged marriage when, you know, to my dad and they're together, loving, very, very happy. Uh, but she had me when she was 18 years old, and so she dropped out of school, sacrificed it all, right? And she moved and, and so that her journey is very different.
So how I got into my career, I don't know if this segues into the future is, I remember when I first moved, uh, to, uh, American, I was in, I came back from my math class and I'm extremely good at math now, but back then I asked my mom for help on, on something math related and she couldn't help. She didn't know the answer.
So she started, and I'll always remember that day that she started tearing up. And so I have a, I have a tattoo on my chest right here and it's a crown, but on top of the crown, it has the letters S E L, which are. Um, if you, for those who write sequel, it's the first three digits or first three letters of the sequel language written in my mom's handwriting because sequel and learning data really is what set me apart from the crowd and my mom's handwriting on it relates back to when I was nine and remember her tearing up.
So I think everyone's stories is different for her satisfaction is just making sure her kids are happy. And so, like, it's just everyone, everyone has their own, has their own, um, you know, objective, but no, that's great to share that.
LT: What's your mom's name?
Dan Ali: Shaista.
DC: Spell it.
LT: I love it.
Dan Ali: Uh, S-H-A-I-S-T-A.
DC: Shaista.
Dan Ali: That's it.
DC: Got it. I'm gonna say this one thing and then we're gonna move on to the next section. Uh, Brand Nerds for those of you who are, uh, are not, uh, people of color or, uh, or, uh, immigrants or from immigrant families. Now the reality is. Everyone in America is an immigrant because this is an immigrant country, but for those who think that they are not, uh, at all, uh, I want to point out one thing that, uh, many people of color and immigrants witnessed in their lives, but don't talk about, and I'm not, I'm not projecting this upon you, Dan and your father, Muhammad, but I'm, I'm going to talk about my father, uh, my father, um, He was a brilliant man, but during the era in America, he was now, uh, uh, able to fully manifest his brilliance.
He couldn't. And so I saw my father at times emotionally and psychologically broken because he knew he had it. He knew he had it. He knew he could blow the fuck up. He, he knew this. He just couldn't quite figure out how to deal with all of the things that he was, he was fighting against. He just could not.
So when children see that, even if they don't fully comprehend what's going on, we feel that. So when we get our shot, I'm sorry, people, if some, if you are between me and what I think I'm capable of doing, and we have to fight that out. I'm thinking about my father, you're not winning that fight with me.
I'm going to get it. And this is something that we carry forward. So, so I just want to state that for some of the Brand Nerds, so they understand that they understand that. Okay, I'm going to go to the next section, unless Dan or Larry, you want to say something as regards to that?
LT: Great close on that.
DC: Cool. All right, here we go. All right, Dan. Five questions. Five questions. I hit you one with one. Larry hits you with a second. We go back and forth until we arrive at five. I'm up first. What was the brand experience that you had in your life, Dan? Take yourself back. Where it felt like you were falling in love. You could not get enough of this brand. You couldn't spend enough time with it. Couldn't, couldn't think about it enough. You, you were just really, really into this brand, almost like a first love. What was that brand or brand experience for you?
Dan Ali: Yeah, it's a great question. So I always think of lego. So my Years, I spent five years at toys r us a long time and on and off school and you know, if you think about like Black Friday or you think about holidays?
Every single vendor would come in to mark their product down The only vendor that would never show up is the Lego vendor.
This is, this is, you're too early to recognize why Louis Vuitton doesn't, you know, doesn't promote things online and things like you're too young. So you don't, as a kid, you're just trying to understand and peace. There you go. There it is. Yeah. You're trying to just piece together and understand. I love Louis Vuitton Prada.
You know, I, I see like. Uh, not to segue, I see like these other brands come in, these baby brands that are going to be around for two, three years, charge 400 and be done. But these brands live forever. Lego like that live forever. Barbie got discounted. Barbie is a huge brand, right? But Barbie got discounted.
And so you begin to go deeper on why Lego would not get discounted. And, uh, you know, you go back to, to, to, and I'm going to bounce between brands. You look at Rolex, right? As a brand. Rolex starts creating impressions in your mind from the moment that your parents are carrying you at the airport and you look up at the clock and you ask, what is that? And so they're not trying to generate a sale today. They're trying to generate a sale 25 years from now.
LT: Yep.
Dan Ali: Right. Like, so when you're 25, 26, you want to roll it. They don't care if you. Go buy a Rolex at one. And so Lego in itself turns into the same where you have tons of companies that invent blocks, right? And those blocks may be more digital, more tactile, more colorful, but there's something that you do in a child's mind where you attach them to this particular brand with no significant advertising. You take Nike. Nike is doing massive global apps. They're going out and they're buying out. Shoes for every NFL player.
Every NBA player. They're doing all of this. Tell me one time you've seen Lego on the screen. Tell me one time you've seen Lego on in an athletic place, right? They do things that are like Legoland, right? Come here because we want to celebrate your love for Lego. People love it to people doing it when they're 60, 70 years old.
They do it. They love it. They have it. And so that was the most fascinating brand for me was Lego because it's lack of discounting people's attachment to it and the retention curve always stuck strong. Um, and so that's, that's one that I, I fell in love with and it's hard to create a brand like that because it requires such a significant amount of what you would consider marketing investment.
But also mindshare to gain to get to a point where you own the customer. Like they own the customer and it's reached a point where if you have children you want to tell them about it So the word of mouth marketing is so strong that you want to tell them about it similar to Rolex where you want to give your Rolex To your kid, right?
There's a there's a thing that's a keep it going And so once you get to that stage, you've achieved nirvana. Now you look at a Pepsi Right and like Pepsi has changed their advertising significantly because back in the day it was enough to show a glass with ice and drop the Pepsi in and it's blitzing and it works and now that type of advertising and marketing for the modern day consumer is not considered to be adequate What's driving them in? So what do you do? You either discount your brand or you try to re innovate your brand? And so companies like Pepsi have moved towards innovating things like a water brand, but their name is somewhat hidden inside it. And, but Lego has stayed Lego. So, uh, since I've been young until now, I think Legos don't discount, Lego stays Lego. And they find unique avenues to advertise and market that aren't like massively in your face.
LT: They're like if you like us come see us, but otherwise we don't care, right?
I gotta add something here. You you're hitting on a Lego is a wonderful brand and by the way, we bring it up in our brand workshops We have two day brand workshops where we talk about Right. That's the whole we spend 16 hours of talking about brand and brand positioning and Legos is brand positioning is incredible for all the reasons that you just said.
I'm going to take it personal too. Uh, as the Brand Nerds know, and DC affectionately calls his nephew, our son, Jake, was 20. year old college junior. Um, from the time he was a little pup when he was running around Lego store, Lego store, would he commit? We were, we were living at the Lego store. We went to Legoland and Jake told me something interesting the other day.
D he was saying, dad, you know, I don't think I told you this, but he said, with all the social media and all the stuff he goes, I'm realizing that I need to be off my devices and I, and I started doing Legos again, as a 20 year old, just to take, and he said it gets a little zen.
DC: Are you dead ass right now?
LT: I swear to God, that's why I'm bringing it up. He gets a little zen. So here's a 20 year old kid who grew up loving Legos till he was in his, you know, basically a preteen when basketball became everything and, you know, and then superheroes and whatnot, but. He actually said he's back to building Legos because it really, it helps relax him and calm his mind and body. So how about that for a brand that you think, oh, you know, you're sort of done with it when you're a kid. But no, even, even older kids who are that emotionally connected to the brand still see it as something that's really special, and still are very much involved with the brand and love it.
DC: Wow. All right. I'm going to have to talk to Nephew about that. I got one comment and then we're going, we're going to keep it moving to the next question. Dan, as you ask the question, the rhetorical, rhetorical question, have you seen like Legos advertised on TV? And I got to think your point was. No, we have not yet. They don't have to discount.
And I'm sitting here thinking, why, why have I not seen it? Uh, advertised and why are they not discounted? And then I thought when I do see Legos, what do I see? And I was like, Oh shit, this is, this is why. With most brands, they show you the widget. And in the case of Lego, the widget is the block. They don't show you that. Lego doesn't show you the widget, they show you the creation. Yep. Here is the creation. Now, you gotta do the widgets to get this creation, but it's about the creation. That is fucking brilliant. It is.
Dan Ali: Think about the three things he mentioned. So you said the creation. For the nephew, it was calmness. And then you want to ask yourself, did the nephew see an impression of a Lego at? Probably not. Did they go into a store? Toys R Us doesn't exist anymore. Right? Essentially.
LT: But we used to go there all the time when the new sets came out because he's 20 now it did when he was, right?
Dan Ali: Last forever, right? So like those are those are the magical things where you don't have to receive an ad for it And I'm sure we'll talk about ads today, but you don't want to receive an ad for it But it lives rent free in your mind
LT: Yep.
DC: Second question. Go ahead, LT.
LT: Yep. Let's go to the second question. So Dan, who has had or is having the most influence on your career?
Dan Ali: Yeah. So my one of the best blessings for me in my career. Um, my mentor's name is Guido. He's a he's a CFO at One Trust. Um, I met him at my time at Groupon. And so, you know, I think for everybody that achieves a level of success in their career, DC mentioned this, he has a mentor, he wouldn't be where he is without him. For me that he is my mentor. I'll tell you why. Um, back when I was at Groupon, I was up until that point, halfway through, I was a very analytical and data oriented person. What you're going to see about analytical and data oriented people is they have the ceiling, which they're afraid to speak strategically because they're so deep into the numbers.
Yes. Somebody recognizing that that's the ceiling that's holding you back and gives you an opportunity to speak at the table. Now you can certainly take your opportunity to speak at the table, but it helps a lot if someone sees the value in it and accelerates it. And so, you know, if I think about him as being that force, he's the one that said, Hey, you know, I want you.
And at this point I was going to go join Amazon and leave Groupon. This was one of the moments where. I predominantly like to work for smaller, just generally smaller companies because you move faster. You're responsible for more. I like that sense of responsibility, but I was going to leave to join Amazon from Groupon and he asked me a series of questions.
He said, why? And we had had one interaction. I actually stopped by to say goodbye to him. We had one interaction. He goes, why? And I said, well, One, the comp is more, right? It's like the first thing, significantly more. And he's like, okay, give me five minutes. He goes to HR, comes back, there's a new comp letter in my inbox.
He's like, what's your second? And I go, okay, my second is I don't have enough responsibility. And he's like, well, I'm going to go create this thing called Groupon plus. I want you to be my number two, his recognition of talent and his ability to create this version of me, that's able to speak strategically has allowed me to combine data.
And art together and speak it in a very fluid manner. Um, and so I, that's why I don't need to have a pre meeting to talk about what we're going to talk about. I'm comfortable presenting to a thousand people with zero, zero preparation is because I believe so confidently in my analytical mindset. That's his mentorship. So I think he he's well, somebody that I'm always going to say unlocked me in my career and the way that I think. Um, and created what I am today.
LT: And I wish I had a Guido, D.
DC: We all need a Guido. Yeah.
LT: You know what's cool about that though, Dan? Honestly, I'm saying that half in jest. You know, I've been in situations where, in retrospect, Um, I left the situation too early and people said to me, Oh, man, you, we love you here. You shouldn't leave. Da da da.
And, you know, but they didn't take the extra step that, that Guido did to make it right for you. And so, while you earned all that you did, because Guido wouldn't have done that for anyone, that's an amazing thing that Guido did that for you. Um, and I'm sure you know it, and that's why you had him as your, as somebody who helped you so much.
That's really cool.
Dan Ali: And the props I'll give him is what he recognized. It always goes down to, he didn't just do it because he felt like he was in a good mood, right? And so I'll give you an example as to why. He asked me to come and be his number two. I remember I was sitting in a, in a conference room, um, with, it was our CMO at the time was, was in, it was in the conference. There was like 25 people. And, um, I, there was all these questions that were being asked in that room about the business, et cetera, and questions that were being, that haven't been answered for about months, some questions not answered for six months. So I said, whatever, I'm going to pull the numbers. I pulled out my sequel and I started writing queries on the spot.
And I was like, Hey, this is the answer. And he goes, what's your name? And I say, my name is Dan. He's like, wow. Okay. I've been waiting for this for six months. And then I was like, I'm like, what's your next question? Boom, boom, boom answered it. And I'm able to write sequel really fast. But going back to the original story is he recognized that. Right. And so it's the mentor will always great mentors will recognize in snapshot moments. The potential of an individual and that's that's what really defines like someone that can be a great mentor because a mentor does should not require two years of your loyalty and your commitment and all these things. A mentor should say, I see something I'm going to invest my time in this person.
LT: Love it.
DC: All right, Larry and Dan, what Guido had an ability to do is in one area of a two by two box that I put people in. If they're, they're either in one or all of these boxes, I believe that every human being in terms of work capability can be placed into one of these four areas, two by two, the top left box, these are the creators. So these folks out of thin air can create an idea, a strategy, something that can change the world. Or change a workplace. They create stuff. And I don't mean like creators in the traditional sense of they work in advertising or they happen to be musicians. I mean, they are just intellectually creative.
All right. So that's the top left. The top right are the editors. So these are folks, Dan, they may not necessarily be able to come up with something totally on their own, but they can take what a creator does and go. Ooh, if we do this, that, this, and that to it, oh, it really will say, so that's the top right.
Bottom left. These are the recognizers. I call these the business equivalent of a and r in the music business, the A&R people, uh, person or the recognizer. These are a and r by the way. Renner, this artisan repertoire. So these are the folks that can recognize they, they can recognize talent, that can recognize partnerships. They can recognize strategies. They're able to recognize these things. That's the problem.
LT: Winning. Winning strategies in people.
DC: Winning. Winning, winning, correct. Winning. And then the, the bottom, uh, the bottom, right, these are the operators. So they can execute the things they know exactly how to take an idea and make it make money. So the most important box brand nerds is that A&R box because. Folks that don't have the ability to, if Guido doesn't have the ability to recognize Dan's talent, and he puts someone else in there like Joe, who's not that good, Guido's not winning, y'all. He might be able to win for a while, but Guido's not gonna win for a long time.
The other thing on the recognized box Brand Nerds is that if you don't get that right, you pick the wrong strategy. The one that wins is right in front of you. You can't recognize it. The agency that can help you win is right in front of you. You cannot recognize it. It is a dangerous box. So hearing you say Guido, I know he's got that bottom life lock recognizer and our box on lock. Dan, he's got it on lock.
LT: Great. Great conversation. But D before we We're going to go to question three in a second, Dan. I just wanted to sum up DC's put forth, those four boxes on our show a couple of other times, and he can't do it enough. And so you should feel honored that he's doing it here because it's a perfect, uh, it's a perfect place, actually, because of the great conversation we're having. So D, go hit question three.
DC: Shout Guido one time. Here we go. Question number three. Oh, Dan, so many accolades. So many accolades. Incredibly. Impressive. For this next question, I don't want to know about any of that.
LT: We're setting you up, Dan.
DC: I want to know, for the Brand Nerds, what was your biggest F up and what did you learn from it? And let me give you a little more clarification on the biggest F up. YOUR biggest F up, Dan. YOU made a mistake. You thought this was going to happen? It did not happen. Here's what we don't want to hear. Well, you know, my biggest F up was when I went in and I talked with my manager about an idea and he said, no, we shouldn't do it. So we missed out on opportunity. That's not your fuck up. That's theirs. I want to know your eff up you got the floor.
Dan Ali: Yeah, so I I always think about this one of my first businesses and entrepreneurs are always born and have a mind of an entrepreneur at a young age. They're just waiting to execute and so one of my uh ideas when I first started innovating new ideas and I almost put everything I had into it was this concept called WedSim, which was weddings made simple was the concept.
So it's a WedSim and it came out an experience of when I was, you know, 20, 21 years old and I was in a relationship and we were like, oh, you know Like what would it be like and you know in Muslim and Muslim Muslim community? Planning weddings and things is very different. It's very accelerated, right? Like, you know, in our culture, you almost have to get like religiously engaged before you start dating in case of someone sees you out and about, they don't think that you're a terrible person. Right. And so we started going and explore, like exploring, like, you know, wedding venues and things of that nature.
And when you go into that particular market. It's very, very convoluted, meaning that a lot of people that have wedding venue halls are asking for cash and because, you know, yada yada, and you're like, and it creates a sense of stress between you and your significant other, right? So I don't know what percentage of weddings end or marriage planning ends because of that conflict, but it does.
So I had this amazing idea, which was to launch this concept called WedSim, right? And so I, you know, coming from an immigrant background, I saved a lot of money. Up until that point, right? Just like 20, 25 percent into a piggy bank. So I launched this concept. I tried to get, you know, there's this before the age of TikTok.
This is before the age of like Instagram going viral for anyone that lived during that time. We're talking about like AOL, AIM, you have an AIM username we're going in. And so I dumped almost everything into a website. Okay at that point I dumped almost everything into a website And I went out and then I tried to find the supply after I invested all my capital. So before I even found my capital I invested all of my earnings up until that point into a website Okay, I went out to find suppliers which were the actual vendors.
They all required capital. They were like we're not going to work with you unless you give us five thousand dollars up front and then we'll become So essentially my entire wonderful
DC: website
Dan Ali: website, it doesn't work, it doesn't work. And so I, to this day, remember how inadequate my planning was, where I dumped and I think entrepreneurs make this mistake all the time.
It's the shiny object fallacy. That's problem to solve. You'll dump a hundred percent of your capital. And I remember because it was literally a hundred percent of my capital up until that time I dumped into a website, you know, I, I'm going to take that akin to like, I think about it every day now. And I tell everybody when you start a business.
Do it right in the smallest of small scales and if you can't do it don't build anything. Right, like don't invest your time Don't invest your energy if it's if you're if people aren't willing to buy at the smallest scales They don't so I think about it every day when I I I get I hope that's a big enough f up Um from my perspective, I dumped everything into it.
Um So otherwise I can name a few relationships for you, you know, uh,
LT: You don't have to go there. That was a really good one. Actually That was that was a really good one
DC: and you learned from it. What it
LT: Bingo?
Dan Ali: Yeah So I think foundationally you learn that make sure the business mechanics work before you invest in the business. So if you go back to like the early, you know 2010s Sorry, no, mid 2010s, late 2010s, where people were investing money in ideas and websites, right?
That world is gone now. In 2009, 2010, nobody cared about ideas and websites. In 2018, 2020, everyone cared about websites and then COVID came and now people care about money, right? Like how much money is your business making? So it's really about capitalizing at the right time, but also when you start a company, make sure the business makes sense before you invest in the business.
And it doesn't just make sense to you. Someone's willing to pay you a dollar for what you're providing.
LT: That's great advice. And I think what you're saying too is. Um, you can even do the research, you know, however that permeates itself, uh first Before you actually dump real money in that's what you're really saying
Dan Ali: Yeah, you think about right parent lemonade stands, right?
Like i'm not gonna put my kid on a lemonade stand and spend ten thousand dollars on the lemonade stand Hoping that more people will show up. I mean they could show up but they'll show up because of the hype and then they'll stop and so like it really you got to think about it is like Before I build a lemonade store, I gotta make the stand work, and the demand's gotta be there for me to open the store.
If the demand's not there for the lemonade stand, and I go open a lemonade store hoping for people to not want lemonade more, it doesn't matter, it's a waste of capital. Mm.
DC: Great one. Great one, yeah. One note here. Uh, Lexi, a question. You said that in, uh, when you're dating and you're Muslim and you are moving to marriage, did I hear you say things happen quickly? Are there some speed? Did you, did I hear you say that? I don't know about this. Explain it to a brother.
Dan Ali: Yeah, absolutely. So essentially, one Muslims just generally in our culture inclined to getting married earlier, right? There's a there's a huge difference of getting married earlier. So that's the first piece.
The second piece is is traditional dating in the culture, Islamic society isn't What you see in in traditional day to day, and that means that, you know, you don't go and say, Hey, I want to take you on a date and then you go on the date and then you start dating them. And then you introduce them to your parents a year down the line, two years on the line when you're comfortable.
It's very similar to the bachelor with no fun part. Wow, they think of it that way. Right? So it's like, I recognize that, you know, there's two ways to go about it in the traditional round. One, your parents call the shot, right? Because they've parents not getting along can make a relationship fall apart in some, in some ways, right?
There's one way is your parents find somebody that they get along with in terms of parents. Yeah. Right. They make the assessment that because both the parents get along, the upbringings are going to get along because they've been raised similarly. So that's one peril. If you decide to go the second peril, which is love marriage, right?
Which is Right. If you tell a Muslim that these are these kids are getting a love marriage, a traditional Muslim is going to think about it like in a not a positive. It's not a positive light. It's not something to be celebrated. It's something to be right. And so then the love marriage is going to go through trials and tribulations.
Even though, you know, they're just doing what normal people do, and they're gonna have a lot more, like, kind of barriers in their path. And so, they may get to the end outcome, but then they're gonna introduce the parents together. And the parents are going into it with a mindset, which is, I know better than the kids, so already you start one step back.
So a traditional Muslim is different. Now, when you come to the United States as a Pakistani into America, parents bring that mentality. Right. It brings kids to an environment where they're evolving out of that mentality. So that's what creates the first generation creates that friction because you almost like my kids are going to be very different.
They're going to get to date whoever they want. They're going to live and flourish in whatever they want, but not saying my parents are very, very open, but even my open parents have, you know, a little bit of friction because it's called cultural difference. Which you can't blame them for, but long story short, it's a, it's a very, very different system.
I date normally now for all those that are wondering. So, uh, it's yeah.
LT: Thanks for Lou. Thanks for telling us that. Right.
DC: I did. I did not know any of that. And I feel better that I have been informed of something that is, uh, that's really good. I do have one more thing, Larry, you got anything else before we go to the next question?
LT: No, I'm just glad that Dan sharing this is really interesting.
DC: It is. Okay. So Brand nerds, I want you to listen up. There was something that he said as he was starting. Um, oh, WedSim, is that, was that the name of it? Yeah. WedSim,
Dan Ali: WedSim, WedSim. Weddings Made Simple. Yeah.
DC: Okay. Got it. All right. So he said he, he, he invested all of his money.
So Brand Nerds, for those of you who want to be an entrepreneur, you need to know something. If you are not prepared to push all of your chips in the middle of the table, you And know that there is a likelihood that you're going to lose them. You're not ready. You're not, you're not, you're not ready. This is not to say that when you push the man, you're definitely going to lose them.
I'm saying that when you push them in, you cannot be overly attached to the outcome that you're getting that back. You, you, you, you cannot be, what you do is you push them in the middle of the table. And the legs holding up that table are you you're betting the felt on the table is you the chips on the table that's you and if you have enough confidence and in some ways it's a bit not Fully normal, cognitively, like you've got to be a little nuts to push all of that in the middle of the table and believe that with, with your, with your God, your creator, or just your own moxie that you could make what's on that table grow.
Don't do it. You don't don't do it. Don't do it. All right. Okay. Next question, Larry.
LT: You got it. So, uh, So, Dan, regarding technology and marketing, the confluence of those, you have an excellent background to answer this question. So can you tell us where you think marketers should either lean in or best leverage tech, or you can tell us areas that they should be leery or simply avoid?
Dan Ali: Yeah, it's a great question. So, uh, what you, what you alluded to, uh, my role is, uh, I'm a chief marketing technology officer. So it's. It's effectively taking marketing and technology, combining them and creating revenue out of it. And so I'm going to talk through two kind of mechanisms of technology, one within marketing and one within just pure tech.
So within marketing, you have the ever changing visibility portals. 10 years ago, it was Facebook. Five years ago, it was Instagram. Now it's TikTok and it's ever changing. That technology is ever changing. Understanding your medium is the most important thing that a marketer can understand to leverage technology.
So what does that mean? So let's take a brand, let's take Sephora. I love using Sephora as an example. Because in 2009 or 2010, Sephora could simply say, Sephora is now open, and generate traffic. In 2015, Sephora had to say, New brand in stock. Come on in and try it out. That was the medium because people had gotten bored.
They knew the story existed. Now, this is a new medium Now you go to Sephora now and they need to generate more and more revenue, right? Because that's the game of business. How do you generate more and more revenue? So I have this really strong thesis and it's not proven but i'm going to share it here I've dated in 2010 and i've dated now And I have loving, uh, you know, loving girlfriends at both times, right?
And like, it's, it's just to level set and frame the fact that the marketing has changed so tremendously that in 2010, this concept of a boyfriend going into a Sephora and paying for his girlfriend did not exist. Hmm. A girlfriend went in and bought the Sephora for herself. So she was, she came in and she thought about it.
She's like, I have $80 to spend. I'm gonna spend $60 'cause I want to eat later. Mm-Hmm. in 2020 2000, sorry, 2024. I don't even know where we are right now. In 2024. If you look, go to, if you go to TikTok, you see ads that are normalizing a boyfriend paying for a hundred percent of your girlfriend's Sephora haul.
So you think about that, right? The translation of the medium has become. A boyfriend goes in and, and, you know, buys more Sephora. And so therefore increasing the average order value, because if you have someone else buying for you, right, you're, you're going to spend more. It's just the nature of it, right?
Because it's a special experience. And for the man, it's going to feel like, you know, you have to do it because that's the right thing to do. Because if you're not doing it, someone else is doing it, right? So you put yourself in a weird position. So the mediums of that technology has changed the way that people market.
And it changes their behavior, but it also psychologically impairs it because when you think about the psychology behind it, in 2009, you received knowledge in 2015, 16 years, received a little bit more knowledge in 2024. You're feeling not good enough. Oh, so there's, there's this fine, refined, refined this in, in the growth of marketing.
And I absolutely love my, my girlfriend right now. We fell in love on one of the aspects of understanding this whole component of our marketing has changed. And I can just tell in very early stages that she is a marketer at heart because she recognized it. She recognized the fact if you are Sephora today, are you going to advertise and say this really cool brands in stock?
Which people are going to look at and see as an ad, or are you going to say. Or normalize the fact that chance just change the culture. Let's just make it so that I, I, as I, as a girlfriend should not be paying for the Sephora. Now it's not saying that every girlfriend doesn't pay for Sephora, but they're normalizing it.
Right. So I think that's the beauty of just the marketing component of our technology changes and how you create medium.
LT: Can I just interject one quick thing and a question for you, Dan, because, um, I'm not as familiar with that. Um, is that a brand positioning shift? An overall strategic brand positioning shift by support.
And by the way, my next door neighbor's daughter is a director of marketing over there. Um, but, um, is that a, is that a brand positioning shift or is that something that they did further down the funnel to specifically, you know, talk to folks differently in the TikTok world than the, than, than before, because those are two very different things.
Dan Ali: Yeah. So let me, I'm going to just phrase it this way. There's, there's a difference between Iron Man and Batman and you guys are both Iron Man and Batman, right? Yes. Iron Man comes out and says, I am Tony Stark. I am Iron Man. I'm Batman stays hidden, right? Batman wants to stay hidden, his life is hidden, right?
So you can have. The same brand positioning as you did in 2009. And that's your Ironman, right? Like I am, this is my identity and I'm not going to change my identity, but your Batman is what you're doing to shift culture, to generate more revenue while keeping your brand identity the same. So what I'm going to say is their brand positioning is effectively the same.
The people that are posting the hauls aren't them. They're influencers posting the halls. They're influencing the community to intend to spend more.
Every business has their iron man and every business has their Batman. Right. And so to figure out how you use those together is how you win.
LT: Very interesting.
DC: All right. So I've got a cultural point here and a commerce point. So the example you gave, I think you said 2010 versus 2024 and you used. Uh, the denomination of 2010 for the person going in to buy Sephora for herself, 60 bucks, then 20 bucks to eat, get something to eat.
All right. So now, uh, inflation, inflation, 20 bucks in 2010 is 85 bucks in 2024. A hundred percent. So, so let's, let's think about this Brand Nerds. So what's happened is not only has this, this shift occurred, which I did not know, Dan, thank you for. Uh, educated us on that. But now the person who buys the haul or who was expected to buy the haul there's more pressure on them simply by virtue of inflation.
Okay. So to get the same amount that one was getting from, uh, Sephora on their own. Expecting that in 2024 is costing more buckaroonies. And if you take that and extrapolate that out over a variety of different elements. Well, it's hard out here for a player. Okay, not, not, not for me. I'm engaged. I'm very, very happy, but I got daughters, uh, Dan, uh, they're in their twenties. I could not imagine being a guy dating now. And I'm, I'm 25 in business school and I'm trying to figure out where to get my next meal and the person I'm dating is expecting a haul from Sephora. We can't do that. We can't do that.
Dan Ali: Honestly, you start to appreciate, so like one of the unique things about my girlfriend is, you mentioned the Midwest, right?
So, opening the door in Newport Beach is unheard of. Oh, totally. Right, right. So like, so I do that and she appreciates it. When I come home, she has a home cooked meal and that for me, I don't know anyone here that has that happening for them. So honestly, I feel like the luckiest person on earth, but it's the simple things, right? It's the simple thing. And when you start letting like social media run your life. That's why when you, you can pretty easily connect it to the, the mental health crisis. I mean, it's, it's hard. It's hard to live because as a man or a woman, it's hard to feel good enough when you're constantly looking at someone doing 10 times as much as you, and then you try to reach those means, but you can't. Right. And so, and so it's really hard in today's world to feel like enough. Um, so I, I think that's the big challenge we have for the next 10 years, people to feel like they're enough.
DC: All right, Larry, we're going to go to the, uh, the final question, but I'm just going to do it since I, since our brothers in Newport beach, what he says about holding the doors, right?
I used to live in the area. I was at Fashion Island and I would hold the door and, and these women would be looking at me with their dogs. Now they got their dogs rolling in and out and you know what I'm talking about that and they're like, what the hell are you doing? Like they look at me. So that that's, uh, he is speaking facts. He's speaking facts. All right. Uh, final question, Dan.
Dan Ali: What are you most proud of? I mean, I'm most proud of my parents. It's a very, very cheesy answer, but I think it's extremely difficult for anyone to come into a new world And assimilate. You asked me a question, how old was I? I was nine, right? And that, it was difficult for me at nine.
So I can imagine how difficult it was for people at their thirties and forties. I think I'm most proud of my parents just being part of American society and accepting me for who I am and being proud of me and I hope to carry that forward. It was a cheesy answer, but
LT: It's genuine.
DC: It's real. It's real.
LT: Are they still in Naperville, Dan?
Dan Ali: They're still in Naperville, yeah. They love it. That's great.
LT: D, that's a good, that's a good one, right?
DC: That's a great one. Yeah. That's a great one.
LT: Not much to, not much to add to that. Not at all. So, okay, Dan, we're going to go to the next section, Dan. Uh, this is our next segment.
And this is What's poppin? What's poppin D?
DC: What's poppin?
LT: Dan, this is our chance to shout out, shout down, or simply air something happening in and around marketing today that we think is good fodder for discussion. And I'm gonna, I'm gonna intro a topic for all of us. So have you, have you both heard about the announcement that Wendy's made about dynamic pricing?
Have you guys, uh, heard about this?
DC: Surge pricing.
LT: Have you heard about this, Dan?
Dan Ali: I have slightly, but no.
LT: Okay. So let me, let me give you more information about this. So, um, this is quote from CEO, Kirk Tanner during their conference call for investors the other day. So beginning as early as 2025, we will begin testing more enhanced features like dynamic pricing and day part offerings.
Along with a I enabled menu changes and suggestive selling as we continue to show the benefit of this technology in our company operated restaurants, franchisee interest in digital menu board should increase. further supporting sales and profit growth across the system. Well, guess what you guys, there was huge backlash.
Okay. So lots of backlash ensued with politicians weighing in about price gouging. Um, and then Burger King, this is kind of funny. They tweeted the only thing surging at BK and then they had the, uh, the emoji for fire is the fire. We don't believe in charging people more when they're hungry. So then with this backlash, Wendy's then issued another statement.
The saying that their original announcement was misconstrued by media outlets as an intent to practice surge pricing. The company assured that there were no plans to raise prices during peak times and that any tested features would benefit customers and employees. Digital menu boards could allow us to change the menu offerings at different times of day and offer discounts and value offers to our customers more easily, particularly in the slower times of day.
So, what say you to this, gentlemen?
Dan Ali: Oopsie. They oopsied it, right? I think, I think, I think they swung. I mean, I think, I think so. I, at United, we used to do dynamic pricing, right? And so, um, it works for airlines because you're, you're over. Overbooking seats. It makes sense because you're, you're essentially predicting demand and supply. And then I think what they're basing it off of, have you guys heard of this bar? There's a bar, I believe in, in, um, it's like there's three or four of them where they dynamically change the pricing of drinks based off of the demand for that particular drink. But it's, But it's fun because you're like you're sitting there at the bar.
You go in there for entertainment. You're seeing the screen You're seeing when you're like, oh my gosh, that beer just dropped to six bucks I want to right now you run up buy at the price. It's fun, right? So I I think like what? It's going to be stepwise. So initially you're going to see the technology be built out and then you're going to see the radius being built.
So let's take a, let's take a, you know, it's a good example of frosty. Let's take a frosty. Frosty used to be a buck right now. It's I think two 50, I think a frosty. Um, I might be, I think I'm pretty certain it's too,
LT: probably in the ballpark.
Dan Ali: And so what's the range going to be? Is it going to be buck to two 50 is the range going to be a buck to three bucks.
If they're saying the range is not going to be a two bucks to two 50, there's really no financial advantage or gain besides a demand increase. Right. So let's talk about the demand increase. How are you going to be notified to drive the demand? Right. So like, are they going to tell everybody, Hey, by the way, for the next 15 minutes, frosties are a dollar.
Because our demand is low. No, I don't know. I don't think so. Right. So you're going to have to get to the restaurant to identify what the pricing is,
DC: and it could be higher when you get there,
Dan Ali: but they're saying it won't be higher. But, but the point is, is there's no one's going to download an app that live real time is tracking Wendy's and I may be totally wrong real time tracking Wendy's pricing. And then, Oh 15 cents. Let me run to my store and let me grab it. Right. So when you think about the true intent. It's, it's very difficult to say, okay, we're going to discount it at certain key times, but you don't know what those times are, but you have to come in and figure it out. So I don't, I don't know. I don't know what the, what the, I don't know what the premise, I think, I think a lot of companies they're trying to find ways to integrate AI and their companies and create something. So it may be the start of something great. Um, but you know, foundationally, when I go down to restaurants, I always think about the fact there's some really good restaurants that price their product lower and low income areas versus high and then they price their and again, that's a different version of pricing, right? And that that's that could be something they're trying to tease out of the demand and the supply because in low income areas that walk the walk ins are a lot different and high income areas are a lot different. So maybe they're trying to normalize and fix that. Um, but it's pretty unclear on. On the success for what they're trying to succeed with
LT: D, I love that breakdown, Dan. Do you have thoughts?
DC: I do. I feel like we're playing a game show and the game show is entitled smart people doing very dumb things. Okay, so no, I got three points. Number one, number one, whenever a brand or business is saying something about price, And it is either consumer facing or ultimately will become consumer facing and just about everything is. The only thing that consumer or customer wants to hear about price is less or free.
That's it. That's right. I don't want to hear anything out. Anything that even remotely sounds like it's going up, uh, consumers and customers don't want to hear. So that's not so the fact that they said it and then tried to, I don't just sit down. Oopsie tried to try to explain it. You're in trouble. Okay.
The moment you are talking to your PR team and your agency is like, okay, we have to figure out how we explain this. You're already dead. You're already dead. That's number one. Number two is hubris. So to your point, Dan is like, does Wendy's actually believe that there is an addressable market large enough.
To care about when the fucking price of fries are going down at 11 a. m. on, on, on Devon street. No, we don't care Wendy's. There's not enough of us that care. So that hubris. Okay. And then the third piece is this, I get the business reason why. And when I was in the, uh, the tech business, uh, I did a startup actually that was founded, um, in, First it was founded in Australia, then it came to Irvine, California.
It was only in, uh, in, in California, and a smattering of distribution in Nevada. That brand was Boost Mobile. It then, uh, we launched that across the country. It was acquired, uh, yada, yada. But, uh, at, so we were eventually acquired by Sprint. So. So the dude's explaining to me and our, and our executive team, it's like five of us, I don't think it was all of us, and we basically were on fire then, so we were like bringing in, and so we wanted to like, and we were on the network that was the Nextel network now, now owned by Sprint.
So we're ready to fill the puppy up because we want to grow. We want to, we want to like crush our numbers. And he says to me, hey, hey, hey, DC, let me explain to you like this, this is why we have to wait. Before you just start loading people up in there. He says, like you're on a plane and there's an open seat.
If we put one of your customers in a seat, it's worth half LTV. Long-term value to us as one of our customers. So we wanna keep that seat open and see if we can put one of our customers in it. Yeah. Instead of one of your customers. Now, I didn't like it, but I understood it. I did understood it. And by the way, Wendy's, we never said any of that publicly. Okay. , we, we never said any of that. So that's my reaction.
Dan Ali: Yeah. And I think a far more accretive thing for them if they wanted to do something, is yes. A pricing strategy and to your point like it doesn't make sense as a pricing strategy where we already know Mcdonald's is under fire for having their prices be so high they're being hit from multiple places.
Yeah, I was Wendy's- What I would do to your point, less or free, I would say for the whole year of 2024, frosties are a dollar. Yes. And that's it. And you do that release. You're good. Now, Wendy's wins because now everyone's funneling to Wendy's for the 1 frosty and buying the extremely margined fries and their baconator and this and that.
And like you just create the demand by doing the right thing. I love Nike has this tenant, which I love. It is do the right thing and the money will follow.
DC: Yep. That's good.
LT: That's good. I have a couple builds on this wonderful conversation that you all have. So what is I go back to what Dan was talking about as it relates to, to Lego.
And as soon as you get, and Dan, we have this, and we talk about this ad infinitum in all of our workshops with our clients and whatnot. As soon as you start delving into price, you're in trouble. As soon, as soon as you start leading with price, you're in trouble. So even in the fast food world, if you build your brand, you know, trust me In-and-Out burger again, Dan, I'm in Northern California.
So do you ever, they don't advertise really. And they certainly will never do anything about price, right? They have a great brand. They don't need to. Um, so that's point number one. Um, and so when you when you're delving into the price, it's just it's really it's a it's a lose lose game. Um, and then when you're announcing something like this, D, I love your point about hubris.
You know, you shouldn't be talking about price, but you're sort of trying to say, well, Uber does this, you know, they sort of trying to, to get to other categories again, Dan, as you mentioned, airlines have been doing this forever, really, for a long, long time. But at the end of the day, if you're a consumer, you know, this is a business.
So if they're doing this, they're trying to make more money. Who are we kidding? Right? That's what they're doing. So the whole thing smacks. Of a big oopsie to use your language, Dan, because this isn't something, if they were going to do this, like DC sport about Boost Mobile, maybe it tested out in a few areas by putting forth this big announcement, you deserve the backlash that you've earned.
Dan Ali: Yeah. I don't disagree. Oh yeah. I mean, I just think there's so many better ways to go about it. You have to like, understand your market market, right. I want to hear like that. The market, the consumer, your consumer business, if you're Wendy's, right? You're not, you're not a B2B business. You're exactly consumer.
If you told a B2B company that you're integrating AI, you're like, Oh, that's cool. That's awesome. You're telling your consumer, you're going to change the menu prices. Let's just run a survey across a hundred people as an enormous company, right? I guarantee you many of those people are going to be like, I don't understand what you're saying.
All I heard is. Your prices might be higher. Exactly increased it from like a dollar to 250. It's it's so such a convoluted message Um, that's why I always say for marketers like the whole the day where you can go into a room and impress people with just big words Is gone. Yeah, if you can't deliver cash to the business That that's really what matters now.
There's some businesses that far exclude that like you look at big impression businesses like a Nike or, you know, like Amazon, but they have the cash in the bank and the impression volume behind them that they can continue to generate. But if you look at Apple, Apple just killed their whole car concept yesterday, focusing on other things.
And that was a 10 billion project. Yep. To point to something that matters. So the fact that companies like Wendy's can't recognize that nobody cares about AI based pricing and whatever audience segment that they interviewed was not a consumer and they could have just made frosties a dollar. It's sad.
DC: I love that idea.
I'm just going to say this quickly. One what Apple didn't do when they killed the car project project yesterday. To your point, Dennis, they did not say, and therefore we're going to dynamic pricing on our on our MacBooks and iPads. They did not do that. Okay. They did not do that. But but, uh, thinking more about Wendy's attempting to use Uber as an analog like, Hey, don't think of us. It's just Wendy's out here by ourselves. Yeah, Uber is also doing the same thing. I must channel the inimitable, uh, poet named Kat Williams. Okay, Kat Williams, who's on Club Shea Shea. Kat Williams has a joke, uh, Dan and Larry, and his joke is about a Chrysler 300. He says that a Chrysler 300 looks just like a Phantom until a Phantom pulls up.
Okay. , right? This is what went like Wendy's. You are no Uber. So stop trying to be Uber. Just stop. That's right.
LT: And by the way, we all mention Apple. Did they ever do anything on price? The answer's Hell no. The answer's no.
Dan Ali: Um, they, they, they do it in a very intelligent way. Right? They do it in an intelligent way.
Yes. They they do it, they do it. They introduce a product that's a digital product. Because they know that the product, the physical products, their gateway, they bring in a digital edition product. So let's call it the Apple family plan. They introduce it at a price that seems extremely palatable, and they increase it by 25 cents.
LT: That's right.
Dan Ali: 75 cents a dollar. And before you know it, you're paying 34. 99 in all your images. So they do it in an intelligent way where. Your demand for the product and your affinity for the product continues to grow. So your, your value for the price continues to grow or to DC's point, the inflation catches up, but to take as a restaurant concept.
It's, it's very, very, very odd.
LT: Dan, I know you know this, I just want to make sure the Brand Nerds understand what you said. That, what you just said is their pricing strategy, which clearly you, you explained it brilliantly. That's exactly what they did. But where I was going is, it's never part of their brand positioning. They never do anything with price as part of their brand positioning. That's what I, I just want to be clear about that. That's what I meant.
Dan Ali: Oh, you're right. You're right. And the one thing they tried to do, and they failed at, they tried to get the Apple Car under 100, 000.
LT: I didn't even know that. Yeah.
Dan Ali: And they said that was probably one of those reasons that they weren't able to, they, I don't know if they said it or was it was speculated right, that they were all able to get it to that particular price point because they know the demand is there.
Right? Like you roll up to a Wendy's and a Fry's $12, you're gonna be like, why in the world did I choose, I, I don't want to cancel my order. Like, I don't, I don't want.
LT: Hey D, this has, this, Dan has been amazing, Dan. You've, this has been so much fun. This is blown by, we're really at the show close and, uh, Dan, what we do at the end here is DC and I posit our learnings and, uh, we'll give you the opportunity to also, before we leave this, to share anything that you've learned from this wonderful conversation.
So I lead off and there's a, uh, multiple learnings, but I'm going to keep it to five. So, uh, and it's funny because I have something from the very beginning of what Dan said to almost what he said just a minute or two ago. So number one is, um, as Brand Nerds, as it relates to your career and your business or marketing career, he tried different things. Started as in retail, you try different things and you eventually find what you love. That's a huge one. That's number one. Number two, like Dan's parents, Brand Nerds, what are you doing to pay it forward to help others? Three, like Dan, find your Guido. Mentors are so important. So, so, so important. That's number three. Number four, when you start a business, make sure the business mechanics work before you invest in the business. So you don't end up doing WedSim like Dan did. So he made that mistake, don't you make it. And number five, and Dan just said this literally a minute or two ago, the best marketers ultimately deliver cash. Cash, cash to the business. Because they understand the fundamentals. And they understand the value proposition that you'll pay more money for as a consumer if you're getting great value back. And the best marketers really understand that whole value equation. So those are my five great learnings. D, the floor is yours.
DC: I'll pick up on where you were, and those are great, Larry. Cash rules everything around me. Cream! Shout out Wu Tang. Wu Tang. RZA. Okay. Dan, at this juncture in the show, what I yearn for is some connection with, uh, with our guests. Uh, beyond just what they say, but what they mean. Uh, and also by virtue of non verbal communication, some things that they are saying that maybe did not have words, but that were nonetheless communicated. And after that, I attempt to make my assessment of what is it that this human has been put on this planet to give the rest of us with what, what are they teaching us on their journey? And that's a lot brother to try to assess in the short amount of time that we have, but sometimes it hits me. And so I'm going to attempt to share now with you what's hit me about you.
So I'm going to go back to the question that we asked in, uh, in five questions about your, your, your first brand love, the thing that, that really hit you. And you started with Legos and then you said, you know, I'm going to hop around a little bit. And you've mentioned Rolex. And you said, uh, what happens with Rolex is when you're a kid, you know, one, two years old, and you're looking up at a Rolex clock at an airport or somewhere else, and you're asking your parents, like, what's that?
And your parents are explaining this to you. You said Rolex is not trying to get you to buy a watch at one. They're making an impression with you at one. So you can buy a watch when you are 21 or in your twenties or whenever. So what I took away from that is Rolex is playing the long game. They're playing the long game.
The next thing is, uh, when we asked the, uh, the question, um, what are you most proud of? You said, ah, you know, I know this is probably not even, but my, my, my parents, uh, Muhammad and, and Shista. And you explain how your, your father, how he finished second of everyone who took a test, back home, second. And, uh, he did not necessarily do all the things that he wanted to do, um, in Pakistan and here in America, but he did this, he said, you know what, for my kids, wherever you want to go to school, you go.
And that was Mohammed and, um, and Shaista playing the long game. So this is the second example of playing the long game. Now, Brand Nerds, we get, we get to spend a little time with our guests before we roll camera. So before we start the show. And so, uh, Dan was kind of looking over his shoulder. He was kind of like looking at, he says, I get emails.
I get eight a minute. So, and then, uh, uh, uh, before, uh, so then we go on air, uh, and then Larry does the, the opening, the brilliant opening and Dan, your career took off fast. It took off really, really fast. You earned that brother. But as, as we were beginning to start, I saw, uh, Larry, uh, Larry, I know this phrase, I saw the, the iPhone prayers happening.
I saw you look down and I thought to myself, okay, am I going to have to say to this brother? Yo, yo, man, we're doing a podcast. You're gonna have to stay here. The, what I got from that was that there, there are some, there's some, um, impatience. Like, like, Hey, I'm, I'm ready to move. I'm ready to move. And then I asked you about the question.
You, I don't remember what question it was, but I, uh, that you answered. I said, you said, you know, Muslims, they kind of in the, in the dating realm, they don't do it like y'all do it. Like we, we're not, you're not like two, three years, meet the parents, that kind of thing. Like we're going to do it. We're going to do it.
So there's this impatience and speed about you, my brother cast up against this long game of the brand that you love Rolex and your parents. And so I'm thinking, then I noticed in the background off your shoulder. So Brand Nerds, you can't see this as a boxing glove. And I thought I've met many people in my day, Dan, I've worked with many people in my day, famous people.
All right. I have been in the room with a billionaire before, so I've met all the people. They don't impress me no more than someone sweeping. The on the corner. No, I don't think of them as higher or lower. They're the same to me. But there was one dude that I have met and I've worked with who is different.
And that's Muhammad. Okay, he is a different guy. And that boxing glove had me think that was my connection. So I'm going to read you a quote from Muhammad Ali that I think starts to touch upon you. And then I'm going to articulate or attempt to what I think makes you special. One of the things makes you makes you special.
So here's the quote. They're asking him like, what do you want people to think about you? Like when you, when you're up out of here, what do you want to think? He says, I'd like them to say, he took a few cups of love. He took one tablespoon of patience. He took a teaspoon of generosity, one pint of kindness. He took one quart of laughter, one pinch of concern. Then he mixed it, mixed with willingness and happiness. He added lots of faith and he stirred it up well. Okay. Impatience and patience. Here is what I think your gift is, brother. You are gloriously Impatiently patient. And I think that's what we can learn from you, my brother.
Dan Ali: I love that. Yeah. Thank you. Wow. That was incredibly kind. Honestly, very, very, very kind.
LT: Dan, you didn't know you were hitting the DC couch. That's what happens at our show, uh, at the end, at the end. So, uh, but he always has a, uh, a truly inimitable way of, uh, of. Finding the best in folks. And, and, uh, Dan, this has been such a delightful conversation.
Anything that, uh, you want to share before we close about this wonderful conversation we've had?
Dan Ali: Oh, I want to meet you guys in person. So whenever you guys are in town, we'll have to, we'll have to go out and get a coffee or get a drink or something. It was absolutely wonderful. I mean, I think you guys have very open hearts and I think it's, that's what leads to success at the end of the day.
So, um, appreciate you guys and your time, but yeah, whenever you're in town. I'm pleased.
LT: We'll make that happen. We will make that happen. We will make that happen. All right.
DC: Love Laguna Beach.
Dan Ali: There you go. I love Laguna too. Place called Nick's. You gotta check it out.
LT: Let's do it. Let's do it, right? All right, Jade, this is the show closed.
Thanks for listening to Brands, Beats, and Bytes, Brand Nerds. The executive producers are Jeff Shirley, Darryl "DC" Cobbin, Larry Taman, Hailey Cobbin, Jade Tate, and Tom Dioro
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