Defining Hospitality

🏨✨ Defining Hospitality is Sponsored by Berman Falk https://www.bermanfalk.com/ - Check out their impact page! 🌍🌱 https://www.bermanfalk.com/impact/ 

Today, Dan Ryan hosts Dwayne MacEwen, a renowned architecture and design professional, and Founder and Principal of DMAC Architecture and Interiors. The conversation delves into Dwayne's journey from working at Jordan Moser to starting his own company. They discuss his innovative approach in the hospitality industry and explore his projects like the award-winning American Airlines lounge and unconventional methods—bending wire sculptures, carving topography models, and prioritizing intuitive design without heavy reliance on signage. The episode emphasizes the importance of creative processes, client relationships, and pushing the boundaries of traditional design.

Takeaways: 
  • Approach spaces with an outside-the-box mentality. Design shouldn't just meet the programmatic needs but also transcend and innovate beyond traditional expectations.
  • Personalize spaces using hospitality as a guiding principle, even if they fall outside traditional hospitality contexts (e.g., airport lounges, utility buildings).
  • Reduce dependence on signage by using materials and layouts that intuitively guide guests through spaces.
  • Engage deeply with client feedback and adapt designs accordingly—a close, collaborative approach can lead to unique and successful outcomes.
  • Trust and invest in the design process, from initial sketches to full-scale mockups. This can ensure a holistic, well-thought-out final product.
  • Small details, such as acoustics and material finishes, can significantly enhance the guest experience. Pay attention to elements that might not be obvious but improve the overall ambiance.
  • Be open to new challenges and projects outside your immediate expertise. This can lead to innovative solutions and broader experience.

Quote of the Show:
“ We succeeded at developing something really special by thinking outside of the box and applying hospitality to everything that we do.” - Dwayne MacEwen

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Creators & Guests

Host
Dan Ryan
Host of Defining Hospitality
Producer
Rayanne Pruitt

What is Defining Hospitality?

Welcome to Defining Hospitality, the podcast focused on highlighting the most influential figures in the hospitality industry. In each episode we provide 1 on 1, in depth interviews with experts in the industry to learn what hospitality means to them. We feature expert advice on working in the industry, behind the scenes looks at some of your favorite brands, and in depth explorations of unique hospitality projects.

Defining Hospitality is hosted by Founder and CEO of Agency 967, Dan Ryan. With over 30 years of experience in hospitality, Dan brings his expertise and passion to each episode as he delves into the latest trends and challenges facing the industry.

Episodes are released every week on Wednesday mornings.

To listen to episodes, visit https://www.defininghospitality.live/ or subscribe to Defining Hospitality wherever you get your podcasts.

DH - Dwayne MacEwen
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Speaker: [00:00:00] What I do is inconsequential. Why I do what I do is I get to shorten people's journeys every day. What I love about our hospitality industry is that it's our mission to make people feel cared for while on their journeys. Together we'll explore what hospitality means in the built environment, in business, and in our daily lives.

I'm Dan Ryan and this is Defining Hospitality.

This podcast is sponsored by Berman Falk Hospitality Group, a design driven furniture manufacturer who specializes in custom case goods and seating for hotel guest rooms.

dan-ryan_38_12-11-2024_132220: Today's guest is a driven and creative architecture and design professional with an entrepreneurial spirit.

He is a leader and speaker in our hospitality industry, attending and participating in events such as BDNY and Global Hospitality Talk. For the past 30 years, he's grown his award winning firm, which has been selected for AIA Chicago's Interior Architecture Award, Crane's Chicago Business Award for Best of 2018 [00:01:00] Event Spaces, and many more.

He's a principal and founder at DMACC, or DMACC Architecture and Interiors, Ladies and gentlemen, Dwayne McEwen. Welcome Dwayne,

squadcaster-2j1f_1_12-11-2024_122220: Dan, thank you so much for having me. It's, it's an honor to be here.

dan-ryan_38_12-11-2024_132220: and I assume you are in Chicago right now, correct?

squadcaster-2j1f_1_12-11-2024_122220: I'm in Chicago at my

dan-ryan_38_12-11-2024_132220: Okay So do you feel like you're speaking to a celebrity with the name Dan Ryan being that you're in Chicago and that I have Since starting this podcast and Expressway named after me.

squadcaster-2j1f_1_12-11-2024_122220: I was going to ask you about the traffic actually, if we had time

dan-ryan_38_12-11-2024_132220: Yeah, everyone always says it's bad and I'm just kidding It's not named after me everyone

squadcaster-2j1f_1_12-11-2024_122220: it could be, it'd be maybe, maybe after this podcast, it will be maybe.

dan-ryan_38_12-11-2024_132220: so I just want everyone to know I got in touch with Dwayne recently, um, at BDNY and we connected, we started talking and what, well, there's a lot of really cool things about Dwayne that you'll all find out. But the thing that really jumped out at [00:02:00] me the most is early on in his career, he started off at Jordan Moser.

in Chicago, which also launched so many other awesome people within our industry. So I want to talk about that experience and like the type of people that were attracted there and like that diaspora of alums from there, um, that kind of helped everyone go on, create these really cool career arcs. Um, but it's just interesting how some firms and some life experiences launch so many interesting people within our industry or any industry.

As like a, a breeding ground for really good thinking. Um, so I just want to take note of that and we can dig into that in a bit. But before we get into it, Dwayne, why do you like hospitality? What does it mean to you?

squadcaster-2j1f_1_12-11-2024_122220: I mean, I think in a way we look at hospitality, as not something that is applied to a project. I think if you, you know, think of the traditional terms of [00:03:00] hospitality, it's, you know, food and beverage, entertainment, it seems like it belongs to the service sector. And I think because all the work we do is really in service of the people that they use those spaces.

So whether it's even a utility building or even outside of what I think people think is a norm of hospitality. We sort of get to hospitality through our process of designing for the people and places, where you know, where we work rather than a specific programmatic type. And I think that's why we've been successful in some firsts in the sense that, you know, whether it's an airport lounge or automotive country club in Miami, that we had no business being invited to the table, but succeeded at developing something really special. by thinking outside of the box and applying hospitality to everything that we do.

dan-ryan_38_12-11-2024_132220: Okay. So thank you for bringing up the airline lounge. I know many of us listeners are road [00:04:00] warriors and always on the road, and hopefully we sometimes. We don't get to the airport with enough time to go to the lounge because we're always so busy, but for when we do, I really appreciate those moments. And the story of you having never done an airport lounge before.

And I always wonder, like, who creates these places? But then you mentioned that the Points guy, who I follow, um, as like an influencer in the travel industry, said that it was like one of the best lounge experiences he's had at American Airlines. Um, that's like super surprising to me. So how did you, how did you find that?

Like, that seems like such a coveted, um, travel, um, design project. Like how did all that come together?

squadcaster-2j1f_1_12-11-2024_122220: I mean, it's interesting. So in 2018, I was in the wellness pavilion at HD Expo in Las Vegas. You know, I was part of a panel discussion, discussion on wellness. And I think too often, you know, the, the, terms like, you know, [00:05:00] sustainability, You know, by Ophelia, those sort of check the box terms. And, and we were presenting a project that we had done in Chicago as the Midtown Athletic Club, which was sort of a more of a health club resort than it was a traditional health club.

And we sort of applied, again, the sort of hospitality lens to, to that project. I think I said something like you can't bumper stick your wellness and that. And it resonated with somebody in the audience who happened to be the head of premium services for American Airlines, and she stuck around to talk to me afterwards and, you know, again, we'd never done an airport lounge, you know, fast forward, probably, you know, 6, 9 months later, it was actually December, I think, 18th of 2019, where we signed a contract. to do the rebranding of American Airlines for their lounges worldwide. And so they went to the mat for us, because I think, I think they wanted something other than a commodity for an airport lounge. I think when you go [00:06:00] to people, sometimes when you go to people that specialize in certain, in certain genres, there's this sort of, There's a sort of de facto solution that's, you know, put forth and don't worry about it.

We got this. We know how to do this. And there was a lot of rigor. There was a lot of listening. There was a lot of back and forth. And I've always said to clients, it's more important to ask the right questions and be a good listener than thinking of all the answers. Cause I think, I think when architecture and interior design can become a commodity, when If you don't continue to challenge and question yourself, and I mean, ultimately, you know, it's such a wonderful, wonderful profession in the sense that, you know, we work with, whether it's an airport lounge or a hairstylist, they care as much about our profession, or, you know, You know, their profession as we do about ours. And something that struck me, you know, you know, digging in like Gil, who we worked with at American Airlines. I mean, he was in the [00:07:00] trenches with us, you know, as we developed this over a year for them, the first, you know, basically the model room, if you will, or the prototype at Reagan National in DC. I mean, this big entity, American Airlines, and you're working with a big team and I mean, they only leaned in as much as we did in terms of caring about the product.

And I think that was really rewarding. And I mean, some of the rewards of this business, you can't always put them in the bank, but if you develop a good project and you sort of maybe change the model a little bit and move it forward, I think that's really important. And I mean, things, simple things like, um, You know, we get a manual for wayfinding.

I'm like, I hate wayfinding. You know, if I feel like as architects, if we need to, if we need signs pointing people where to go, we haven't done our, we haven't done our job as, as designers. And even, you know, you know, how do you occupy that negative space and how do you move through it? And if that's not intuitive, then I think we've failed in

dan-ryan_38_12-11-2024_132220: So that's something that's really surprising to me. I know you shared this with me earlier and I [00:08:00] always think that wayfinding or signage is, is an unsung vocation, if you will, because it when it's done properly, you don't notice it when it's done. Improperly. You're like, wait, I just walked 30 feet the wrong direction.

I have no idea where I am. How do I, how do I fix this? And I think what surprised me about your story, American Airlines. A, you've never done an airline lounge before, which is Remarkable, because that's like a huge undertaking and quite an investment that they're making on you. But I believe you told me that you used very little or no signage.

How is that possible in an airport lounge where everyone is trying to get from point A to point B so quickly?

squadcaster-2j1f_1_12-11-2024_122220: Well, I think what any part of the concept or at least, you know, part of the DNA of the project was that if we can use materials and finishes to interface how you navigate the space and understand the space. So [00:09:00] very much how you interact with your iPhone, it is very intuitive. So that's just, that's what we're trying to do.

What we wanted the airport lounge to do in terms of, so we had a dining pavilion, a lounge pavilion, and literally the only sign other than a few, you know, very subtle sort of American Airlines branding pieces was to denote the men's and women's restrooms.

dan-ryan_38_12-11-2024_132220: That sounds, so insane to me, especially within the confines of an airport where I can't even imagine the amount of like regulations from the FAA down to just local jurisdictions and everything else that are there, that there wouldn't be more of a, of an intense pressure to have more signage or put a sign on it, put a bird on it like they did in that Portlandia.

squadcaster-2j1f_1_12-11-2024_122220: right?

dan-ryan_38_12-11-2024_132220: Many moons ago, but it's like, that's so insane. So like, how, how do you make a physical space so intuitive that you don't need signage where they're normally you're overwhelmed with signage

squadcaster-2j1f_1_12-11-2024_122220: Well, [00:10:00] I mean, I mean, I think it, it's not just because it was DC, but I mean, most of our work has a path and reward system of moving people through space. So You know, if you turn to your right or your left, there's, and especially, especially in DC, it made so much sense with the boulevards, you know, you get the Washington Monument, the Capitol Building. So, you know, it's no accident that the fireplace is, when you, when you check in, is on your left when you walk in. It's no accident that going to the right, you see a different, a different sort of quality of space in terms of how it's lit. It's a little brighter. The food and beverage is there and it's defined by these white metal tubes, which we call the dining pavilion. And the Lounge Pavilion is more of a wooden box in terms of understanding the vocabulary of that. So I think using, again, materials and finishes to communicate that, and maybe more importantly, you know, the space planning becomes more important, in my opinion, than even the finishes. I mean, how you sort of move through space and understanding that [00:11:00] the architecture and interiors really exist. In what we don't build, it's a space in between things. You know, we affect those moments by the material finish on the wall, what it looks like, how it, you know, how does it absorb sound, absorb light, bounce it back. All those things become incredibly important. So, You can tell spaces that were designed just based on taste or trend because of a very short shelf life.

And you might get that definitive photograph, you know, in the magazine and it looks great. But when you go into those spaces and they don't feel great, there's something missing. And that's where I think it's where, I mean, I've always said that, you know, architecture used to contain the arts and it's become a container for the arts.

And we're fortunate in the sense that, you know, we're architects, I, I don't wanna say first, but we're architects that do interior design. Or interior designers that do architecture, but there's no, the materials and finish finishes are in service of the idea. They're not the idea.

dan-ryan_38_12-11-2024_132220: going back to that [00:12:00] journey after you did the wellness, you can't put a bumper sticker on wellness. I think you said,

squadcaster-2j1f_1_12-11-2024_122220: Yes. I might not going to bite it back to the wellness, to the wellness pavilion at HD, but

dan-ryan_38_12-11-2024_132220: well, it's actually funny. So on the whole wellness thing, I get the feeling of what it is. Um, and I, it's, I recognize it when there's an effort to address body, mind, and spirit, right? Um, I have a really good family friend who used to, she's in her 80s. She used to study Pilates with Joe Pilates, like way back in the day.

She did some of the first Pilates studios out in New Mexico. Um, And she's a lifelong entrepreneur. Um, she's really remarkable. I can't wait to send this to her because she's going to like yell at me that I didn't do it right or something. But she has a word for like all the, there's like all of these legions of people.

In the wellness world, she calls them wellness bitches. And in her eighties, I'm like, [00:13:00] great, Joan, like you go. But I feel like the bumper sticker of wellness kind of, uh, she, by using that term, that bumper sticker of wellness, it's like, it's become a misplaced idea, I think. And it's kind of like, you know, it, when you, when you feel it, when you're, when you're fully addressed there, but Joan, that was for you.

I can't wait to send you that. But, um, they saw you on this panel, you wind up getting an RFP, you've never done an airport lounge before. Just to give us a scope for all of the capital expenditure that United, or that American Airlines, I'm sorry, would, um, roll out to redo all of their lounges. Like what, how big of a number is that?

And how do you, why do you think they entrusted that huge number to you who had no experience doing it?

squadcaster-2j1f_1_12-11-2024_122220: mean, it's funny because I did sort of lean into [00:14:00] the process. I knew we were an outlier for sure. So, and I, it was Mimi. So I called Mimi and I said, I'm, I'm coming to Dallas Fort Worth. I just, I want to say hi. So, you know, on my own dime, flew down, met some of the team that we ended up working with. Um, throughout the project and then this went back and forth over a year and I probably had my worst interview for a project that I've ever had at any job and I thought for sure they weren't getting this because it was sort of going up the food chain at American and I think there was a status quo or a certain set of criteria how they were evaluated. You know, architecture firms and, you know, we're not a 400 person firm. We're 20, between 20 and 30 people. Um, and we touch everything. Like it doesn't go, there is no interiors department in our office. If you start a project, you finish it. And if we need to make a custom light fixture for it, we'll figure that out with that same group.

Um, so there's no production line. And I think sort of talking through [00:15:00] some of this stuff. You know, God bless Mimi. I don't know what she did internally, but she must have gone to the mat for us because I don't know if it was, we keep doing the same thing over and over again. And we keep getting sort of corporate looking, nice interiors, but they still feel like you're warehousing both people and furniture.

So I think, I mean, we had to ask a ton of questions and we, we, we literally did full size mock ups in the office. So eventually there was a lot of work and rigor. And I think. At least one person in America said nobody's ever worked this hard for us, you know, in terms of trying to sort of deliver something.

So I think. You know, sort of leaning in and going to school, you know, on those projects, there's a payback for us from what we, you know, that makes us better for what we do next. But I also think there's a payback for the, for the client as well, in terms of getting something that can move the needle or, you know, transcend that sort of traditional, this is what the airport lounge is, but what [00:16:00] could it be?

And, and if you don't take program as a constraint and just talk again, and talk about the sort of process and you're engaged. You discover things along the way that sort of move how you think about things. Like one of my favorite things about the project is that we don't have those robust corner guards on those, those, those things. end tables that look like, you know, mini tanks, you know, but stainless steel, because these are harsh environments with luggage. And there's a part of DFW, which still the old part of the airport that has the eight by eight tiles with the quarter inch brow joints. And I remember Mimi took me back to the airport, or she picked me up there and we're walking through the concourse. And I was embarrassed because my roller bag was doing ba ba doom, as I go through. So, you know, sort of fast forward, you know, a year and a half later, we're talking about, you know, the materiality and the endurance of this space. So we ended up developing a rumble strip that if you've, you know, it's very, it's nine inches deep.

It goes around all the wooden elements. [00:17:00] So there's an audible deterrent now in, I get it, at American Airlines, at DFT. At, I'm sorry, Reagan National, that if you have a roller bike and you get too close to the, any of the, any of the finishes, there's an audible deterrent. There's a rumble strip that wraps around and that became an, again, just sort of being aware.

And that was, it wasn't an obvious solution at the front end, but. It solved the problem of, I don't want to have corner guards and everything. So how do we protect this and make it survive? And again, it's more sustainable because you're not replacing things over time.

dan-ryan_38_12-11-2024_132220: going back to that first interview that you did so they found you at the wellness pavilion you were speaking Um, it led to this interview that you said was the worst interview of your career.

squadcaster-2j1f_1_12-11-2024_122220: that was maybe two or three later, but yes.

dan-ryan_38_12-11-2024_132220: Oh, okay. How, so how do you, uh, how do you think you went from that and not having experience to ultimately convincing them?

Like, what do you, what do you [00:18:00] think that argument was or that feeling or that, that shared, um, passion for, for the challenge that lay ahead? How, how did that, how did you, how did you square that circle?

squadcaster-2j1f_1_12-11-2024_122220: Well, I think, I mean, I think that, I think the passion and what I do is sort of evident and I, you know, I flew down there, we had, we have a marketing book. I sort of, you know, brought a couple of those and went through a bunch of projects, none of them were airport lounges, by the way, of course. And, but, you know, talk about. Even one of my first projects, like in Chicago on my own, was a hair salon. You know, it was, you know, for a celebrity hair guy, Mark Tricocci. And I'd never done hair salon before. He told me later, I gave you one in the suburbs, so if you You know, effed it up, didn't matter. It mattered, but it didn't matter that much. So that's a boost of confidence. Right. But, you know, I'd worked in Barcelona on, you know, some Olympic stuff, you know, in the early nineties, um, and food and beverage. So it was really, I mean, hair [00:19:00] salons, even though I'd never done it and I'd worked in London on teaching hospitals, you know, building design partnership.

And it was really, Hair salons is really the clinical side of healthcare, the service side of restaurants. So, you know, I've got this and we've figured out a lot of stuff again by watching people work. How much space do they need? You know, if you're cutting hair, do you spin the chair? Do you walk around?

And I know way more about hair than I, than I should, but I realized early on. Again, they care as much about their profession as we do about ours. And I sort of told, I think I told some of these stories to the American Airlines. So like, this is, this is how we approach every project. We're very good listeners and we can, we can problem solve.

So there was sort of a courtship at the early end. And then they finally got to meet, you know, they had a real estate and some of the other people. And I think that's when the sort of tough questions came. Cause it's like, you know, what do you, what's your branding arm in your office? You know, the sort of typical things that get handed. down in the bigger firms. And [00:20:00] like, we don't outsource that. If we, if we're engaged in a product, in a project, you know, we, we will sometimes handle the branding or, um, you know, work with the owner and that part of it, but I think getting rid of a lot of the wayfinding signage, for example, was, it took a little bit of them to sort of come along and say, well, no, this is our, this is our brand standard for where we tell people to go. But it's like, you don't need it. It's confusing. It's, or even like the sign, you know, the museums and monuments, you know, from DC with that, the American airlines logo that's seemingly carved out of a block of stone. Getting them to sort of lean into that, that it became a sort of part of the culture of a place and inspired by that place, that, you know, that wasn't, 11th hour decision, but it was, it didn't fit into their brand standards for their signage package.

But again, working with some great people in America that cared as much as we did, they had the courage to sort of run it up the food chain and say, [00:21:00] this is what we're doing, or maybe they didn't, and just were willing to follow in their sword as well as I was to make the right decision.

dan-ryan_38_12-11-2024_132220: And just to further contextualize, The outcome of that, of that project at Reagan, um, The points guy who I follow loved it. Like how did, how did that all come up and like walk us through that kind of an accolade or recognition? Like when, how did you hear about it? And then what, what did it make? What did it make you feel?

squadcaster-2j1f_1_12-11-2024_122220: I mean, it was interesting because I mean, I think that came out very early. So like the nicest, you might, I think he's, I can't remember the quote. I don't want to put words in there, but it was something like, you might want to just miss your flight or, you know, whatever. Um, but I remember seeing there, somebody sent me the article and he does his own photography.

We didn't talk to him and there was no pre, Like I'm showing up on Tuesday, but

dan-ryan_38_12-11-2024_132220: It's like a mystery shopper almost,

squadcaster-2j1f_1_12-11-2024_122220: it's A free [00:22:00] shopper and he doesn't know. And I thought the photographer, you know, I was like, I wish I could have sent you some nicer photography, but he does not. Sorry. I don't want to get in trouble, but, um, but it was sort of a nice, I mean, I think I always tell clients and again, from the points guide, like we learn more from criticism than it looks great.

Like I'd rather hear. How do we get better for the next project? So as much as a pat on the back is nice, I'd rather sort of hear like what's, what's missing, what's wrong. And then we've done, we've done all of Michael Jordan's work over the years for his restaurants, food and beverage, and he's not really engaged like in the day to day. meetings have maybe met him three or four times. I remember at one opening, I finally got a chance to talk to him and he's like, yeah, this is great. You know, like I'd rather hear what you don't like. And then, you know, the trash talking came out, like, you know, in the sense that don't worry, I would tell you if I didn't like it sort of thing.

So,

dan-ryan_38_12-11-2024_132220: Wow.

Um, so when you, when you, Going back to [00:23:00] the, the criticism really helps you evolve, basically, is what you said, um,

doing that project, uh, the Admirals Club, and the feedback that you've gotten and what you've learned, and it, you know, by all accounts and all measures, it's a very special place. Um, what did you learn from that? that you're taking forward. What was the biggest, uh, growth, um, idea that you had that you're taking forward and applying to new projects?

squadcaster-2j1f_1_12-11-2024_122220: I mean, I think for that one, because it was the first one and perfection is something that we all try to get to, and it's almost, it's an impossible, you know, it's an impossible sort of mountain to climb, if you will. But we pushed so hard. I mean, we were on site. You know, an incredible amount of time. And I think some, everything's, everything mattered.

And I think from a sort of, you know, you know, speed to market standpoint. And I think we've learned a [00:24:00] lot in terms of, could we tweak a few things to make it easier to build? Yes. Um, some of the, some of the details that we sort of push for, were they important? Yes. Is there a simpler way to do them? But I think there's so, there's so many. I guess what I'm proud of as well and realizing that, you know, I've been back through there over the last couple of years, you know, dozens of times. The staff takes such pride and such good care of it because I think there's a sense of ownership because they understood like the sort of, not necessarily the effort sort of going in to put it together, but I think there's There's something to be said about if you create something with care and people are proud of it, and even that it goes back into the backup house space as well, I think, I think they will do for the most part a better job of taking care of it.

dan-ryan_38_12-11-2024_132220: Yeah. I, I got to reach out to my mother in law. She used to work at the Admirals Club at SFO [00:25:00] forever and ever and ever. And she maybe has friends that work there. Get her, get her feelings on it. Um, the idea of that RumbleStrip audible deterrent, It's making me think about what you mentioned before. It's kind of like that space between, right?

You're kind of

creating these, these spaces, in this case a deterrent, where you're kind of, you're filling in the void and kind, and directing people, and kind of directing their experience without wayfinding or signage. You mentioned before, um, How do you refer to it?

squadcaster-2j1f_1_12-11-2024_122220: The Concourse Club,

dan-ryan_38_12-11-2024_132220: The Concourse Club.

when we spoke about that, there was this other space between, or filling of the void, that I was really intrigued by, that also involved audio, which was taking the sounds of cars going around a racetrack, and creating a sculpture out of it. [00:26:00] Can you, fill, fill me in on, fill us all in on that, because, um, I do like this idea of the space between and, and kind of filling the, and filling the void.

squadcaster-2j1f_1_12-11-2024_122220: I mean that was an interesting project in the sense that we were brought in in 2017 and we opened the second phase at the end of 2022. But a big, a big piece of the work in that project was done. during 2020. So when everyone else was staying home or working from home or not working, I did, I think I did 167 flights commercial and maybe another 20 private that year. And it was my client. We were, we were still, you know, we had several phases of the project going at the Concourse Club. Um, I was going down once, twice a week. I mean, that was, they were single flights. So, you know, divide that by two for the round trip. And there's a permacast wall around this 77 acre site.

And I would go in and I would, you know, fly in with mockups and meet with the [00:27:00] contractors. And I'm like, every time I flew down, I was like, why am I doing this? I was just here three days ago. And it was like, I know why I'm doing it because. That would have been, that would have been f'd up if I didn't show up this week again.

So, but, you know, during that whole process, Elio Krastornavis, who anyone who follows racing, he's one of the founding members. You know, he's won Indy three or four times. I got to know him a little bit, not a ton, but when I would be driving up to the job site, I could, you could hear people on the track, they're ripping around the track, and there's a sound that's, again, I'm not, I don't, I'm not into that, and I don't do, I don't do circuit driving, so I don't really, I understand it, but there was one, every, every once in a while, it would just sound different, and I'm like, I would talk to Aaron Weiss, or, you know, one of the, one of the guys, and I'm like, who's on track with that sound?

That's, you know, customer habits. And he, again, the professional driver, just sounded different. So, and we had taken one of the tuning [00:28:00] shops to build this temporary clubhouse. So it's a 20 ton or 20 foot tall box. And we needed some ceiling on it to sort of fill the void. There's 11 turns on the track. So, you know, I sat right seat. We got to do some rips around the track with one of the professional drivers, got a recording of Helio doing, you know, of him driving. So again, sort of trusting the process, you know, they're opening in two months. We got to, we need something. So one Sunday night, you know, I tell my wife, I'm, you know, I'm going into the office to, Did work on the ceiling piece. So literally, you know, headphones on, eyes closed with, you know, charcoal, just sketching. What does the sound of the track look like? And then literally, um, bending armature wire. It's a one to 50 scale. It's a 250 foot piece of pipe that we ended up bending 11 turns. And actually the, this is one of the first models that happens to be still here.

So these, this is the ugly model with the 11 turns that are masking tape together. And, um, so it [00:29:00] was sort of this wonderful. You know, a piece that came out of just being present. And if it wasn't for maybe all the flights to Miami that year, or it might've been a totally different thing. And that's where I think when architecture and interiors does not become a commodity, there's so much opportunity for discovery and creating something wonderful.

dan-ryan_38_12-11-2024_132220: Well, it's also this, I think what I also appreciated about that story is this idea of not just drawing, but also creating and making like bending the wire, creating the sculpture and it, and then to hear that you worked at Jordan Mosher, it brought me back to stories that Larry Traxler, I hear Mike Zumi talk about where they were You know, working there, having to actually make stuff and do castings and build things that were just not just done two dimensionally, but you're actually building.

How do you think [00:30:00] that experience early in your career helped helped you? Later in your career when dealing, when trying to fill the void,

squadcaster-2j1f_1_12-11-2024_122220: Well, I think it, it pulled you in a way from the catalog, if you will. I mean, something, I mean, There's still dear friends, Larry and Mike Sumi, and we all started around the same time. I was definitely, Larry and Mike were there before, before I was, and

dan-ryan_38_12-11-2024_132220: much older, right?

squadcaster-2j1f_1_12-11-2024_122220: they're so much older.

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squadcaster-2j1f_1_12-11-2024_122220: I mean, fun, well, a quick story on how I got hired. It was, um, I just graduated, it was 1992. [00:31:00] And, you know, I flew to Chicago to look for work. And, you know, it was Mike Sumi that actually, interviewed me because Jordan told me to go away because he was, he just had flown back from Germany, didn't want to talk to me. And they were looking for somebody with 20 years experience.

Well, my background just, my dad was a builder. I had built two spec homes on my own when I was in high school, believe it or not, in a very small province in Canada, Prince Edward Island. And so I had a construction background. So much like, But I think some of those conversations that got me in the door, Jordan Moser's, prepared me for the American Airlines thing, you know, almost 30 years later. And that being an internal optimist and somehow I could build a bridge between my, you know, my collective memory or experience and have no business getting the job that I'm applying for. But so I had done castings, you know, for some reason I thought it was a good idea to cast them. the roof of my model in architecture school.

So I had befriended some [00:32:00] people at the art school, did some investment casting and, you know, so I had sort of that background. So

dan-ryan_38_12-11-2024_132220: So you would, you made your little, like your architectural model, you gave it a cast roof that normally

squadcaster-2j1f_1_12-11-2024_122220: Yeah,

I carved it, you know, white foam brush of my glue buried in a bucket of sand and then poured aluminum into it. I had no idea what I was doing and just, and this was when I was in architecture school. So, um, I think there's always, so that's, that's sort of process of then, you know, Not getting the job that I had no business getting cause I had two months of experience, like not 20 years, but you know, you know, six months later I'm on a plane with Jordan and Mike and we're flying to Frankfurt, Germany for a restaurant and we're, you know, working insane hours, but it was almost like an atelier where, you know, I tell people in the office now that I've had my own firm for almost 30 years, like I wouldn't trade those days for anything, you know, working, we were working. You know, crazy hours, but [00:33:00] it didn't feel like work. It was, and Jordan's a great guy and we we're still friends to this day and we all were connected. It's almost like being, it's almost like being in the trenches together, sort of doing stuff. And I think that's what's missing or that's what people that would rather work from home or not sort of be in the trenches and that.

'cause I think we've learned so much from each other and we're still, I think there's still a bond and a respect for Jordan, what he brought to the table in terms of like, we're gonna stay up all night and do watercolors. Okay. Let's do it. I mean, crazy, right?

dan-ryan_38_12-11-2024_132220: And casting and carving. And

it just, it seemed like, I don't know, it just seemed like the ultimate Santa's workshop, right? Where you're, you're just like the, the elves, like pulling these amazing things together with working with materials that You normally wouldn't work with and I love how you said it really pulls you away from the catalog because you're actually trying to make [00:34:00] whatever that thing is

squadcaster-2j1f_1_12-11-2024_122220: and I think, you know, I, I think, you know, two plus two is never for it and what we do, or, you know, it's a production firm at that point, and it's not that you need to make it more difficult, but there's so many to sort of keep evolving the profession. And, you know, you know, before the written word, we understand the history of, the world through design, essentially, you know, how to be, it's part of our culture, and it should be an important, so that's sort of connective tissue to, you know, this sort of moment in time and space, and that it's not, again, I don't think we apply any of that, and I think much like I said about, you know, you can't bumper sticker wellness, like, I don't think you can bumper sticker hospitality either, like, it's not just, you know, I have nice tables and chairs, and it's a restaurant, so it's a hospitality space.

No, there sort of has to, you know, dig in at a deeper level.

dan-ryan_38_12-11-2024_132220: you were to think about some other projects where you're approaching it with no prior [00:35:00] experience.

I know you mentioned a hair salon, you mentioned an airline club, a racetrack, lounge, um, What's something else where it's like you've filled a void and created some weird new materiality or used it and just created some weird new bizarre form?

squadcaster-2j1f_1_12-11-2024_122220: So, I mean, this, this is one of my most, one of the projects I'm most excited about now. It's a, I can't say too much. It's, but we're doing, somehow we're doing three golf course related projects, whether it's accommodation, um, actually Mike brought me on one of these, um, that we're working on together. And then there's another one in South Florida in the West Palm Beach area.

And another one in, you know, in Canada that, you know, for clubhouse. Um, I think it's similar story to the American Airlines one that, um, You know, we had, we had, we got to this clubhouse with this incredible opportunity through a restaurant that we did, a supper club that we did in Wisconsin that got published in Wallpaper Magazine.

So [00:36:00] some retired CEO saw it, they reinvested in their clubhouse. They're interviewing two clubhouse architects that that's all they do. And let's give this guy a shot. So like similar to American Airlines, it's like, I'm coming down for the interview. and they, You know, what experience do you have none?

And I sort of went through, you know, more of a process than anything, and that will You know, that it's not about, it's never about program to me. It's never, I mean, I think real architecture and design needs to transcend the program. So maybe the program's a vehicle to test an idea, but so again, fast forward, we got the project, we got the first phase of it to do concept stuff for it.

And, you know, it's a famous, if there's a Mount Rushmore golf course designers, the designer of this course is one of one is one of those four. And it was a process of. I remember doing a lot of, again, research on, I'm still trying to break 90 in my golf game. So I'm not, you know, I'm [00:37:00] not, you know, I'm not, I'm an avid golfer. Even if I'm not that good, I love the game, but I don't know that much about the sport. But I started to sort of lean in and do the research and reading about this, this golf course designer, that he said he never finished a set of drawings. Then he would just sort of work with the land and do things. So I literally, again, similar to the bent wire sculpture for the concourse club, I was like, what if, what if this time we didn't start with drawings?

And I did some hand sketching, but what if, what if we started with, um, You know, just sort of working the landscape. So literally, again, it seems to be always on Sunday, go to Home Depot, buy a bag of playground sand. And we made this little box, like, you know, something I could work with and sort of cut and fill in.

So I made this box of sandbox. It's six by nine. Started spinning. You know, I use some of the kitchen tools that people are normally eating up from, so I [00:38:00] think they're back in the kitchen now, so it's all good. But you know, carving the sand, you know, dipping some burlap into white glue, letting it hard, and then pouring plaster into it, and then taking this piece and inverting it and saying, you know, what if we did, like, this inverted lance?

So a lot of the concept came out of the process of building and making. I mean, it didn't come out of. A programmatic research of what, what do people do for golf course clubhouses? And it became the celebration of the course, the culture of this place. You know, it's a, it'll be going on 40 years. Um, you know, in the next couple of years. So but this was one of those moments where we did one scheme to renovate the existing clubhouse. And this other one, this was, am I going to get fired moment and sort of having that courage sometime that if we just have to do this big mansard roof or this big, basically an oversized residential monster clubhouse, I don't want to do it.

Like I'd [00:39:00] rather do something else. So. We presented it a couple of weeks ago or maybe a month ago at this point and now they can't unsee it.

dan-ryan_38_12-11-2024_132220: Yeah, so what, okay, so you, you did an, like an inverted, I'm envisioning like a, the form of like a, Inverted burlap basket or something super organic and textured. How do you take that and say, this is what I want to do.

squadcaster-2j1f_1_12-11-2024_122220: so the first one was this clunky thing. It wasn't a scale. It was too chunky

and then, you know, and it's the, you know, the marshland. So it's, it's very, you know, it's flat. So the next one I restricted myself to a half inch thick piece of basswood and It's been a while since I've carved basswood, maybe since I've been at Jordan's, actually, but So ordered some Japanese woodcarving chisels, because it's an excuse to buy new chisels. We're going to do it. And again, went back in and made a second model. Now, you know, this was the topography. It was a half inch thick, so it [00:40:00] was much more gentle and subtle. And then cut the center of this and flipped it, and it became You

dan-ryan_38_12-11-2024_132220: roof found.

squadcaster-2j1f_1_12-11-2024_122220: and it's sort of a non building. It's sort of a non building as well. And again, some of the nuance of the talk about being a good listener, they talked about as one of the early meetings that, um, you know, they're trying to figure out how to light like the water feature in front of the clubhouse. Like, you know, please don't over light it. And so part, one of the, one of the things was, you know, what if we have this, it's sort of an homage to the golf course designer, but if we bounce light off the ceiling, the underbelly of the structure, when the sun, you know, when the sun goes down and that becomes the nightlight, then we sort of have moonlight over this body of water that, you know, when, if you drive it by. Pass a body of water with moonlight it follows you. So we get this reflected light off the building. So it became some of these sort of very innocent conversations early on, [00:41:00] snuck in the back door of the design process. And we never would have got there without, you know, if it wasn't for the client, if it wasn't, you know, It's sort of, it changes the trajectory of the creative process.

Like you get bumped and you go over here cause the client says something or, and honestly, sometimes not even for this project, you'll be, you'll be so excited about something, go into a meeting and somebody will just suck the wind out of your sails cause they say something and that's the criticism part. But come back the next day and you'll realize maybe a month later that you're in a much better place because of that comment and maybe it's a functional issue or it's could be something, but it's. It's really, I think, why I love what I do, because there's no, there's surprises every day and it's not always fun, but for the most part it's, it's fun.

dan-ryan_38_12-11-2024_132220: And when you start, I guess for every project you do, or maybe I'm wrong, but it's not like you get to [00:42:00] experiment with rolling your sleeves up and making a mess. Or do you, do you like to, for every project, really like to, Build a form or work with new materials and buy Japanese chisels.

squadcaster-2j1f_1_12-11-2024_122220: I mean, honestly, I think because, I mean, so Dan, this is, this is year 29 since I started. I started maybe too young.

dan-ryan_38_12-11-2024_132220: Wow.

squadcaster-2j1f_1_12-11-2024_122220: I should have made more mistakes with somebody else's money before I started on my own, you know, in 1995, but I think it's sort of, I most want to go back to the simplicity and honesty of that research based work. And I think, I remember being, I mean, that sort of anxiety, you know, that white piece of paper that, I remember that anxiety I had in school, like, you're trying to make these great projects and make it perfect. Um, and I think what the last 30 years has given me is the confidence to say, if you trust the [00:43:00] process and do the work, it'll be more than okay.

It'll be, it'll be great if you get the opportunity, you know, to, to build this. And I think that's where I'm trying to find more of those moments too. Like, if I want to build a model, I can't, if the principal of the firm is in the basement in their woodshop for like four days, building a model, it's probably not the right answer, but I'm sort of doing it is sort of going back to the Jordan days, I'm doing it, you know, I'm doing it in the other, I'm doing it in the off hours, if you will, like if it's, you know, if it's. I'll often tell my wife, I'll go into the office for a few hours, but I remember when I built this model, I had to see the sun come up. Yeah. I want to see the sun sort of wash over this thing. It's like, she's like, where are you? I was like, I'll be home and I'll be home when the sun comes up. And

dan-ryan_38_12-11-2024_132220: seems,

squadcaster-2j1f_1_12-11-2024_122220: look crazy. I know.

dan-ryan_38_12-11-2024_132220: no, it's, it's not at all. It actually, it's, it's going back into that kind of [00:44:00] first principle origin story for you of building homes and casting roofs for models. And it, it, and working at Jordan, it just seems to me like, you know, that Rolling your sleeves up and making something is really part of your first principle and just it's your ground floor and how you, how you build off of.

And I think it's really, I think it's really cool to, to do that because then it's also just, um, I think based on just these couple of stories that you shared, everything should just be. Very different from the last. Obviously you still take a lens of experience and functionality to go over everything, but it's, it's a, it's a way to keep pushing and being crazy.

But how do you find clients like you shared with. American Airlines, um, and also the golf course. I, I have to imagine that [00:45:00] many owners or developers do not, they, they want to go like the safest route possible. They don't want to really push the envelope because it's a lot of money they're talking about.

So how do you, how do you screen or attract or find mutual admiration and connection with your clients?

squadcaster-2j1f_1_12-11-2024_122220: I mean, it's almost like we're always second or third on the match, which I'd like to change that somehow, you know, where, like, for example, even for the concourse club. We had, we had done a lot of, you know, auto high-end automobile dealerships, whether it's, you know, Bugatti, Maserati, you know, Lamborghini Fer, our, whatever, you know, for, and the owner of this club, um, was, you know, he's gone through his second or third architect again.

He, it would, if you go to people at design, private automotive country clubs like the racetrack. So these utility buildings are pre-engineered buildings. You can close your eyes and imagine what they look like. [00:46:00] So he was getting frustrated that he didn't like it. So, you know, I had met him a year and a half earlier.

Cause the owner of the, again, the Bentley Lamborghini dealership that he worked a ton for introduced us. So why don't you come down and do a clubhouse for us? We were doing like the sales center and a clubhouse for them. And, and then we took over like the, when we moved the building, we talked about, you know, the acoustical, how, how do we, how do you make sure that a 77 acre site doesn't become the target parking lot when. The lights go down and, you know, how do you make, how do you make this 77 acre site a hospitality room on the outside? So we start where there's a comfort station or the shade structure or we built, you know, 50 private garages or 49 on the north side of the garage and, you know, push them in closer to the track.

So it changed the acoustics of the space. And these are still the same type of structures that the other. Architects that were before me were using, but [00:47:00] how do you take, how do you take that and still craft something worth building and like, whether it's tilt, you know, you know, concrete, you know, the same company that was doing Amazon warehouses, Miami made this for us and, you know, it has a different presence on site and it sort of defines the space.

And so, although this wasn't, we treated the 77 acre site, By understanding the negative space again, rather than having walls to define rooms, we had buildings to define acreage of what was left on the site. Um,

dan-ryan_38_12-11-2024_132220: No, it's like, how do you find and select these owners who are willing to take a flyer on you? And you're like, I want to say unconventional approach, but I'm sure that there's a lot of people that approach things this way, but it's like, you're looking like this negative space idea keeps coming up and it's kind of hard to get people's minds around [00:48:00] it.

But I feel like as you're working with your hands and kind of experimenting, that's really when you get to touch and feel that negative space. And it just seems. Like a hard sell to someone who's a more traditional developer, but I'm, I'm so happy you're able to make that connection. So how do you find and connect with people and make sure that they share a vision before you go down the road too far?

squadcaster-2j1f_1_12-11-2024_122220: but I think it's, I mean, a lot of it's referral, honestly, like the Midtown Athletic Club, which is, you know, we're, I think we did our first project for them and 2007 or 8 we did a health club for them in Montreal and I met that client through the construction manager for Midtown was also a construction manager for the Michael Jordan restaurants and they had just spent, again it was another big firm, they just spent a million dollars in fees with a bigger firm for the renovation in Montreal and They didn't think it [00:49:00] was, they didn't think it was worth building.

So now I'm coming in after the client had just burned a million dollars in fees. I don't say he hates architects, but so he was interviewing three, two or three new architects. And again, we'd never done a health club, same, you know, same story all over again. And we had done a little bit of sketching trying to figure out, you know, the problems with the space.

And he gave us a, he gave us this one, I think it might have been the smaller of the three projects that were, he was doing. Before we opened Montreal, we had taken over the other two projects and there has not been a month in 20, There has not been a month since 20, or 2007 or 8, whenever we started, that we haven't done work.

So we're in the pandemic, 2008, you know, we have five projects going for him now. In 2017, we opened, you know, an 85 million renovation build, uh, to [00:50:00] Chicago. Mothership, which is the most successful health club in the world right now.

dan-ryan_38_12-11-2024_132220: Really?

squadcaster-2j1f_1_12-11-2024_122220: You know, we edit and this is a client that, you know, we'll go back and forth.

And he, at one point said, have I stopped yelling at you? I don't care. And I mean, I'd say that with, I wear that like a badge and it's sort of say that it's a little tongue in cheek as we, we, we get along perfectly fine. But there've been moments where, you know, he'll put me in my place. They can write a money, stop designing. And I respect that. Um, there's been times where maybe it's behind schedule. It's not a, not our fault. It's, you know, but no, we still got to finish this. And so I think there's a mutual respect and we're, I think the projects are better because of his vision for what he wants to build and he knows there's problem, he could, He could build these cheaper and probably pay less in fees if he didn't have, have,[00:51:00]

I don't know if he would be the most successful health club in the world without us either at this point.

So we're renovating that one. I remember that, um, he came through Cornell and I think he went to the hospitality school. He's on the, you know, he was in the hotel business for a while and we'd never done a hotel, but now we're doing 55 rooms on top of this. You know, as part of this. project. He said, I don't know.

You've never done a hotel before. Um, so I remember him coming in and like, there's no way we're not doing this hotel. So I remember we, again, without a contract, but on our own dime, we put together a mood board. He thought it was somebody else's hotel. He was looking at it. He said, that's what I want. And I said, that's your hotel. That's what we've designed.

dan-ryan_38_12-11-2024_132220: So it's like, it's gotta be this, um, they must appreciate the unconventional perspective. Um, but you have to be able to give yourselves [00:52:00] time to, To kind of get to know how each other operate and also just respect that adventurous, um, process to get to the end result. And it just seems like there's not, that to me does not seem like the traditional developer, right?

It's always someone who, who kind of wants to push the envelope.

squadcaster-2j1f_1_12-11-2024_122220: Now I've seen so many, I guess what frustrates me when you see so many bad, and I wouldn't say bad, but if the spaces don't make sense, like I talk about the negative space always for the materiality, but we've been brought in to do, we've acted as, you know, architecture and interior designer. We're, we love doing both.

We've been AOR where we've worked with, um, you know, AJ Capital for some of the garage hotel projects where we were, shepherding through their design team. We were the architect of record. We've, we've, we're doing other projects with, um, where we're the interior [00:53:00] designer and that there's an architect of record.

And we, you know, we play well with other, with other firms and can, can do that. But I think when you sort of get that holistic approach, there's such an opportunity to make it, Or at least if, or even if you get some impact in on the, like if we're working with, if we're the interior designer, we want to push, we want to make recommendations on the layout in terms of what this, again, cause I'm always thinking about what does it feel like to walk through that space?

Not what does the wall look like? It changes that experience, but, and I wonder too, Dan, cause my, so I, I told you when I, when I, I grew up on Prince Edward Island, which is a small province in Canada, a hundred thousand people, and there's really no building. I mean, there is now, but there was no building department per se.

So when I was building these builder houses in high school, like I was literally built doing, I was, you know, pouring the foundation. I was putting the floor on, I was doing the roof. I was laying [00:54:00] tile. I was, Building cabinets, we were doing everything. But, you know, when it started with my dad, you know, sort of very young, he would have like one piece of paper. He knew how big the house was going to be. And then we would get the foundation and put the floor deck on. And I remember he would sort of take these boards, you know, he would, we, we would be doing a plan full size, trying to figure what size the rooms are. So I don't know if there's a spatial perception, but if I'm sketching, it's not line work, it's. I mean, you try to always be in the room, if that makes sense. And I don't really, I stopped doing cat a long time ago. I don't do rabbit. I mean, it's, I'm still sketching and I don't know if, I guess I hope that this next generation of designers are, they're in the room. They're not just seduced by the material palette in front of them.

Cause I think that's, that's so important to embellish everything we do, but it shouldn't [00:55:00] be. It shouldn't be, be the solution.

dan-ryan_38_12-11-2024_132220: I love the idea of really trying to force yourself. into the room and into the space because then like you're, you're trying to get this visceral feeling and connection with what the end result could be. And oftentimes I feel like that's a missed process in many people's processes, right? It's, um, it's really cool to, it's really awesome to hear.

Um, and thank you for sharing. If you, so as you're looking at all these, Projects that you've worked on and looking out to the future. What do you think is exciting you most about the future?

squadcaster-2j1f_1_12-11-2024_122220: I mean, I think, I think we're getting the opportunity to do more ground up work, which I'm really excited about. Again, there's this thing in South Florida, like this, this clubhouse I'm talking about, there's, um, We actually have a project under construction, we have several ground up [00:56:00] projects under construction.

I think where we get to, you know, look at how we're siting the buildings, and how do you, again, I've always been inspired by the, I would say the benign in a way, like the, I think you have to walk the site and understand it, and even whether, even if it's an interior, you have to understand Who you're building for and where you're building.

And I think the sort of nuance of experience and that collective memory, like the more things that you sort of slip in the back door of the design process, then they don't belong to a trend. They don't belong to, you know, something on Instagram or God forbid, Pinterest, or, and then even with AI sort of layering in, you know, influence now, and I think. AI is an interesting one in the sense that if it allows you to, to sort of consolidate in abstract ideas, and again, deflect the departure point in the creative process in terms of where you start, but as long as it's not where [00:57:00] you end, I think it's a very valuable tool and maybe sort of being a can opener for the mind and like, what are the opportunities that you haven't thought of?

Because I think, I mean, often I think some of the model making is some of these, whether it's the model making or the bending of the wire. I think it's taking yourself out of the comfort zone so that, because you only, on the creative side, you only know what you know. You can't know more than, it's impossible, but it's sort of this collective memory.

So if you do something different and you immerse yourself in something, it's almost like music that you, I think you can discover things that Somehow just sort of, you know, pop in that sort of creative spirit. I don't know if I can explain it very well, but it's something where it's, you sort of have to be the active sort of making and doing and becomes a very important part of the process, I think.

And I remember making models in school and you know, [00:58:00] beats. presentations in the morning you're trying to put stuff together and you're so focused on what's in front of you. And I mean, honest to God, like a lot of the times the answer, I find the answer in some of the scraps of paper that are the off cuts on the floor.

It's like, Oh, this is more interesting than what I've been building for the last six hours.

dan-ryan_38_12-11-2024_132220: Well, I think that it all comes down to just allowing creative time and ideas to really germinate and, and having that, um, that creative space and that void to allow your brain and ideas to really evolve. Dance and figure out what might come next. And I feel like it's really important that we all do that.

We're all creative, whether we're architects, designers or anything, and just being able to give ourselves license to explore and think and write and, and be creative. I think that's [00:59:00] really exciting. And all the more important as we go into this brave new world, um, So, that

squadcaster-2j1f_1_12-11-2024_122220: you know, again, these sort of unbuilt or the, you know, the, The supper club we did in Wisconsin, the acoustical performance of that space was really important. I mean, every time we do it, but we've gotten so many compliments that I can hear the music and I can hear my friends talk.

I can hear everything.

dan-ryan_38_12-11-2024_132220: there is really important for every kind of hospitality space, and I feel like it's just done, um, so poorly, um, just because people probably don't allow themselves the time to really solve that challenge.

squadcaster-2j1f_1_12-11-2024_122220: and it doesn't show up in the photo shoot either. So

dan-ryan_38_12-11-2024_132220: exactly.

squadcaster-2j1f_1_12-11-2024_122220: again, that was another important thing for America. Like the acoustical performance of that space was You know, we probably definitely tortured the American Airlines folks to try to get that [01:00:00] right as well. But, you know, I think we got it close, if not, you know, maybe it wouldn't be perfect, but it was, it was worth the effort for sure.

dan-ryan_38_12-11-2024_132220: Um, hey, if people DMAC, what's the best way for them to do so?

squadcaster-2j1f_1_12-11-2024_122220: You know, website dmacarchitecture. com, my email dmacewen@,dmacarchitecture. com, and we're on LinkedIn, social media, um, somebody else handles that more than I do, but we're not hard lined.

dan-ryan_38_12-11-2024_132220: Yeah. And we'll be sure to keep all of that in the notes. Uh, Dwayne, I've really enjoyed this conversation and I don't know, in a way it's inspired me to just roll up my sleeves and make more stuff. So I just want to say thank you and thank you for your time. And I really hope it, uh, it helped others want to roll up their sleeves and some cool shit.

squadcaster-2j1f_1_12-11-2024_122220: Great. Go buy some Japanese carving chisels and

dan-ryan_38_12-11-2024_132220: I will. Um, so thank you very much for your time and, and experience and everyone else, please share this. Uh, we grow by word of mouth. So [01:01:00] like, subscribe, leave comments. And we'll catch you next time.