Curated content, insights and opportunities designed to elevate careers and strengthen teams in Architecture and Design.
UPP Podcast 2
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[00:00:00]
James Cohen: Free audio post production by phonic.com.
Stephen Drew: Hello everyone. I'm in Camden. I'm not here to see Amy Winehouse, nor am I in the market because today we're gonna about talk about Architecture and time planning. So I am here with an awesome practice, which has come out of nowhere in the last few years, grow into an epic size and do awesome Architecture and time planning.
So I'm here with UPP or we are UPP. You guys are P-P-U-P-P. And I am here to talk about with you today, we've got the practice. So let's go through it together guys. So maybe you can introduce yourself first and foremost at the end.
Enrique Alonso: So Steven, thank you very much. It's great to be here with you today.
My name is Enrique. Yeah. One of the directors leading the [00:01:00] Architecture. Side of the practice here. MVPI, joined completely randomly. I met Marty on LinkedIn, over five years ago now, believe it or not,
Stephen Drew: right, on LinkedIn. How did
Enrique Alonso: that go down? Hey? Yeah, no, I basically, I I was working at hosts before and I left and I, wanted to take a bit of a change in my career, see what I, what was next for me and yeah, I met Moti and he was like in a very cozy basement setting up what is now UPP and looking for an Architect to kind join forces and set up something different.
Base the basement days. Yeah. I still remember the day when I met, when I, in the, when I went and meeting and I was like going through the front door and I didn't, understand if I was in the right place. Yeah. And and yeah. And more beginnings. Yeah. The rest is history.
Stephen Drew: Wow. Okay. So that was your story, right? So you work in the practice and you saw your had online. Ma so tell me about yourself and you must have before to meet Enrique in, you must have thought, I'm gonna set up UPP. Did you know at, to start with that one? There's, [00:02:00]
Motti Ifergan: there's a story before the beginning.
Go on that.
Stephen Drew: Yeah. Really it's start war. It's
Motti Ifergan: the, so I grown up ultimate be a lawyer. I thought that was cool. That's yeah. To do. Went to university, studied law. Yeah. Yeah. Is boring.
Stephen Drew: Enough. That's true. But it comes in handy sometimes, right? With, so
Motti Ifergan: I, I was very fortunate. I did a work experience a small Architecture firm.
Yeah. And there was an Architect there called Antonio and an Italian guy, and he. Took me under his wing and stood, I thought, oh, this is really cool. This is exciting. This is interesting. And yeah that, that opened my eyes to planning and then thrown a career. I kept following up and soon that interest.
Yeah. Which ultimately led to led to one day opening up practice to, to work towards open homeowners Yeah. Communities, people. So that's how we got into Nice. Started out as a town planning focus. So Yeah. Planning consultants. Yeah. And we quickly recognize that in order to really make a difference, you to have the design to, or to develop those ambitions. Yeah. That's why we were [00:03:00] start looking for seed design.
Stephen Drew: Okay. Cool. And that, that, that's helping that, because that is a unique thing with UPP in particular is 'cause it's tan planning and Architecture. So initially it was you two, I'm guessing doing so you've got time planning Architecture.
James was bolstering that, so Yeah. We've gotta introduce you as well. Yeah.
James Cohen: Yeah. So I'm James, I'm one of the senior planners here at the team. Nice. I joined UPP as a complete graduate. Yeah. So I came through my degree of geography and then took that usual walk into town planning, studied at UCL, did my master's there.
Stephen Drew: Yeah.
James Cohen: And then, yeah, coming towards the end of that master's degree, you've got all your lecturers encouraging you to go for all the big names out there from the town planning side. So your Litchfield, your your Barrett, or big developers, whoever it is. And. Went through that whole process of applying for all of them and getting knocked back quite a lot ultimately.
Yeah, of course. A lot of the initial interview process with those guys is like a webcam. Yeah. Really struggled with that whole process, [00:04:00] but then eventually found Monte Enrique. Possibly. It's really linked in as well. LinkedIn, bill Gates. That's the, the leaning of the truth.
The truth is the original place where our office, our original office was in Hendon, which is quite local to where I live. Yeah. So it had that, that local connection for me as well. Yeah. I did make the same mistake as well. I'm saying mistake as Enrique, but the same thing as Enrique where you walked outside the office, you looked at the building, you thought, is this definitely the right place?
It looked like a residential house at the time. Said this definitely the right place. Anyway. Yeah. Af after that initial interview with these guys I knew it was the right place to be. Nice. Yeah. Because I felt really organic, yeah.
Stephen Drew: That's really cool.
Maybe what we can do as well, because sometimes one of the things I get all the time from our listeners as well is not quite sure the difference between planning and town planning and I have been guilty. Of making the mistake before I've gone to actually to a planner and gone Hey, you a town planner?
And they're like, no, I do all the policies and all this stuff. I went that it would be really cool if, [00:05:00] first of all, you can define what town planning is for the audience, because I'll get it wrong if I say that you
James Cohen: don't, a interesting I guess town planning and planning pretty, some quite small differences there.
I guess yeah. On one side of planning, not the people that are making the policies Yeah. Bringing about new legislation. And then the other side, you've got development management, which is really taking all of those policy, taking those guidelines, those rules Yeah. And applying them and ultimately telling Enrique and his team what they can't do.
So I would say, yeah there's the whole steering development, but then also the management side. As private sector planners, our job is to really understand the messages coming from government, local authorities. Detangle that Yeah. And apply it to, to to schemes that we're working on.
Projects that we're working on for our clients.
Stephen Drew: Yeah.
James Cohen: Yeah. So yeah, A lot of it is is unpicking those policies, communicating them to both the architects and our clients in the best way possible and ultimately guiding them through that process. Yeah.
Enrique Alonso: To me it's a fascinating profession.
The [00:06:00] one that I didn't know before, obviously coming to the country, someone is not, has not picked up yet. I don't come from the uk, I come originally from Spain. We're profession, that the planning, talking to the town play discipline doesn't exist as such.
Stephen Drew: Yeah.
Enrique Alonso: And all my experience before was to work through, with different companies, but you were the Architect and then, the kind of the planning consultants helping you to get it through and, progress the project that the fact of working together with them from the beginning, behind closed or all the fights, all the healthy fights that we have, over what we think can be done or not in this.
Fascinating, and the way I always talk to them or the way I think about the kind like planning is the strategic, almost like the definition of what can be done and how it should be done. So it's really the strategies that make everything happen and they become the link between the architects and the and the kind of like the dream of what we want to design.
And, the local authority and the sta the bodies to make a project a reality.
James Cohen: And I think a lot of the time we, [00:07:00] we are like, we're like middlemen or, we feel like we're juggling different plates. You we're juggling the needs and want the Architect.
We've got the clients that want to got certain ambitions for their particular project. Yeah. And then you've got the local authority and us as planners have to sit there at the minimum and say how can we meet all the different ambitions and kinda requirements to all these individuals.
Yeah. And make sure that the project comes through in the best way possible for all of those different stakeholders. So that really is the challenge. Yeah, it definitely is a challenge. I think every single project that we care, because it's in. Different local authority. It's got different designations, different whether it be in a conservation area, flood zone, it's got particular transport constraints.
Yeah. You have to right from the outset understand what those what those considerations are. And from there form a bit of planning strategy and it's great to do particularly we feel lucky at UPPI think to do yeah. With the architects hand in hand from the beginning of the process.
Yeah. So that, that's the kind of USP that we feel UPP has. Yeah. And what we bring to the [00:08:00] table.
Stephen Drew: It's very cool 'cause to have those dis different disciplines under the same roof. 'cause sometimes. It's not the case, then the Architect and the town planner might be on the same design team, but not working inhouse.
So the, it sounds like, you have the healthy, debates inhouse per se. But then, so what I was gonna ask is, do you get some projects where you work on just the town planning some of the Architecture and somebody has done both on the same projects? Absolutely. We
Enrique Alonso: do. We've worked in, and we are currently working on projects where we're just architects and we work with different kind consultants.
It's also it's, yeah.
Stephen Drew: Yeah.
Motti Ifergan: No, that's fair. The magic really happens when we do both by
Enrique Alonso: Thelan. Yeah. Because it's just. It's like the synergy, but it's amazing. 'cause every project is different. Yeah, of course. So the process that we follow, we try to follow a process here. We have to adapt to different processes the same way that you have to adapt to different clients, to different needs, to different local authorities.
So it's very different every project. And sometimes [00:09:00] working with a different team or with that have different skills or have a different, perspective of how the project should be done is very enriching. And we're constantly learning and we're constantly trying to bring new things when we do things and export some of those things when we're working with others.
So it, I would say, it's not only about. The way we work, but also trying to like adapt. Yeah. The whole response are be changing. You need to learn to adapt very fast. Different ways of doing things.
Motti Ifergan: Yeah. Yeah. And we often say that we want our architects to be the most knowledgeable in, in planning.
Yeah. Having five service that our planners should be the most sensitive to matters of design. And that can only happens by coming together, living and working together. Yeah. On a daily basis that you could of get so could have connected. And there's that overlap between veterans and I think you learn you so much from working so closely together.
James Cohen: I've definitely found that as a town planner, I know way more about building regulation and I should, I'm way more than your kind of average time plan if you're working a separate firm in that traditional setup. Yeah. But also just [00:10:00] kinda going back to the process. Our, the process in, throughout the lifetime of a project, we find to be a lot more fluid.
When we're doing it as a, as called one team under the same roof. Yeah. Rather than having that process of an Architect sending a set of plans to a client and a talent planner and them doing a formal review and feedback, a lot of our decisions might happen by the coffee machine or, an informal, I'll go over two case desk and we'll pick up a project and it can change the direction that it's going just like that.
So that whole. That kind allowing it to be fluid. Yeah. Between the town plans and the Architect lot more collaborative and it's always
Enrique Alonso: back and forth and subject to the stage of the project, the beginning of the project when it's really like just you of being burning, being burn boring.
That, the planets have a much more yeah. Yeah. Because you are defining what the project is gonna be and what's happen. While, as the project evolves and the project moves into construction, then the client state may be a bit more of a secondary, but they're still there. Yeah.
And all the groups and all the talents that you use to discuss the [00:11:00] project, they're always architects and clients there that they are learning about all the issues that we face when we're building and all the friends that we're having with the contractor. And they are all learning and passive learning about all of that.
Yeah. This is the same that happens with us when we're doing the initial appraisals Yeah. At the beginning of a project. So we like constantly learning from something that we, maybe now our kind like strength. Yeah.
Motti Ifergan: There's something else which really interesting, which I've observed that we have a sense of ownership over the project.
If you're working in silos of two separate firms, the planner will have their scope, the Architect will have their scope, and each one thinks they're leading the project. And there's that tension. But here, ultimately we're two members of the same team. Yeah. It's our project. And there's a ownership of and responsibility.
We deliver this in the successful yeah. Manner. It doesn't not fit yourself. That desk. That desk. If Yeah. Good. We are, if you have members of the same team.
Stephen Drew: Yeah. 'cause it's quite unique because, so fair in that, so if a core project comes in and it's the role of, you're like, okay, no problem. And sure we think that time planning, however, [00:12:00] it seems that there could be special scenarios where.
By the client going, I want you to do the TAM planning and the Architecture. Maybe it goes up another level. Have you had maybe a particular, you've seen that on the project or do you think when you look at certain things, you're like, okay, 'cause we've done this project and it's been kick ass because I've done the two roles, this project or here might be good for, so what does that look like?
What's the ideal project for UPP, both sides to work together
Enrique Alonso: Data level, I guess if it all starts with, a simplest point contact, which is, a phone call like client or a potential client knocking on our door and, thinking I've got this piece of land, or I've got this opportunity, I've got this building, I'm looking at this.
To purchase it all starts with a planning team. Yeah. What is the scope, what is the reality? What, what can be done here and what are the possibilities? And then very like quickly, as they form, what we call the plan, the initial were brief.
The architects joined to start. [00:13:00] Studying. What are what does that mean in terms of Architecture, in terms of, space, in terms of the ability, like even drawings. Yeah. And basic draw plans. So from there it becomes a true back and forth process between the architects, proposing the plan is giving feedback.
The plan is then how to proposing something different, the architects testing that. So it becomes a very, intense vibration process that comes from one side to the office to the next. Yeah. Different ideas. Yeah. And countless times, this, yesterday we were discussing this side in James, we, we were part of the Architecture team.
We were testing something, and then these phones with a completely different idea as well. We're not testing things. And then suddenly, and I hate to admit it actually work much better,
Stephen Drew: right? You got on rank. Yeah, there you go. But you can have this later, right? No. That way it's in,
Enrique Alonso: But it, it does happen all the time, right?
Yeah. Yeah. And then you come along with this collaboration and this sort of like iterative process where we are both proposing and we always like to think, I come from a background, the previous founders that I worked with [00:14:00] where there was a very strong hierarchy. I. In the practice, right?
So we, we try to avoid that. For us, the intern and the director can suggest something that is, perfectly valued. And even sometimes even the people with less experience because they are maybe less. Contaminated by things, they propose something that they sometimes are a little more fresh.
Yeah. And they open, like everybody says, that happens the same if it's the planning consults done or the yeah. Designer or an Architect. Yeah. So we try to encourage this collaboration moving towards a position where we can present the initial set of the concept design ideas apply.
And from there it's just evolving. You hear what's right for the client, what's right for the area. Obviously the kind of like the whole like research around the project. Yeah. The financial, the viability of a project and, start feeding the project and it helps the project evolve towards a point where you can, and we always want to meet with the local authority as soon as possible in the process to bring them all.
Yeah. [00:15:00] We, as, as far the collaborative process that we try to have behind the closed doors, we try to open that process as early as possible with the local authority and treat the mass as like part of the team, pardon the of the process. And not just something that they need to approve or refuse, but it's something that, what is right.
What do you guys think? As well as the local authority that is right here. These are. Our ideas, this is what we will do, what we think is right, not only today, looking forward. Yeah. What is right in this area in the next 20, 50, a hundred years. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm trying to collaborate and open that collaboration with authority, bring them to the team as, as several as possible, experience as possible.
And that's where the plan is. They know how to present something to the they know, or language they speak, and together with the architects, we try to bring these mix. To explain, the rationale of what we're do. Very cool. I think to picking up on that
James Cohen: example in Enfield, because I think that's a good example and it, we work on quite a lot of those kind of projects, right?
There's really constrained, particular example, it's a [00:16:00] garage site nest in, in a back land and of quite isolated spot, and it's got the constraints wrapped up against it. You've got the neighboring gardens, you've got a real lack of parking in the area. There's a green patch on the site itself.
You have the demolition of the garages. And so for a planning perspective, you look at the site and say, the odds are quite stacked up against us here. And then we'd go into that whole process of architects and planners sitting down, understanding those constraints, and then looking at how design can unlock those, what kind of a massive can we get in this part of the side where there's a bit more of an opportunity or where could we potentially have outlook and windows?
We've got that that that outlook there so we can try and orient, take a lot of the facade that way. Yeah. And so yeah, in terms of where UPP really bring that value that yeah. The integrated approach, particularly on those kind of sites, those back plans gonna be constraints sites.
Yeah. The challenging, really challenging sites to unlock, and we feel that the combination of Architecture and planning from the outset, the process where us as the planners establish the boundaries and then say, right architects go and wrong with [00:17:00] it it, it's that's where we
Stephen Drew: really unlock it.
No really cool. And thanks for fetching that out, because it's very rare to get those two. Disciplines working together under one growth. And cl clearly it, it works. However, I wanna wind back to the journey quickly. Okay. So around the time meeting and LinkedIn, it seems around here by the amazing, no.
Prepared by Freddy, who's off camera, but we, maybe we'll get her on the end, try to see if I can convince her. But you started in a small basement, so it wasn't old glamorous at the start, right? It was ready Yeah. Going, bring us back to that.
Motti Ifergan: Yeah. My, my skills rolled up in a bit of everything.
Yeah. And so initially it was providing advice yes. To, to clients. We've written advice.
Stephen Drew: Yeah.
Motti Ifergan: On their sites. It then let's start with, can you run the application for me about my architect's drawings? Can you be the panel consultant? Okay. We successfully managed a few clients and you touch before.
About the climate report with the local authority. [00:18:00] Yeah. That was one of our found values. Nice. And you often you see take a very adversarial approach with the local authority and support, it's bullying and it's it'ss aggression. That has be a better way. Yeah,
Stephen Drew: sure.
Motti Ifergan: Yeah. To you get to work with somebody worked even more, have to have a better outcome than does positive collaboration. So that was still one of, one of the so we these things differently again from day one. And yet we got one good outcomes through that and, one, one sub project led to another.
Stephen Drew: Yeah.
Motti Ifergan: But we then over years called the design. But so yes, you, we started in, in that small basement. I think the, a tipping point was when, we hired our first, right? It was myself and administrator. Then we hired Mili. So she was a local authority for 15 years before joining the practice.
Huh. So she's on the Barnett and LED is leader. So she had that, she brought that whole worth of knowledge and insight from the dark side. We say from the other side seeing I need it. And [00:19:00] also I think deepen our understanding of, their considerations. Yeah. How does a web authority approach a say, what are the internal processes and it just gives a deeper understanding. But you also know. And then from the team group called organic, we hired some junior
Stephen Drew: and there over time, yeah. Group. Yeah. So you got out the basement. Was there a window with we were saved
Motti Ifergan: by the pandemic. Yeah.
Really? So that was a big silver lining for us. And really, yeah, this is a, the topic of in of itself. But Enrique from Spain and some, the other architects at the time were from instantly other countries. And if you recall, they were, things were big worse there. And they were
Stephen Drew: Yeah, of course.
It was crazy, isn't they?
Motti Ifergan: Yeah. So some of the athletes were saying to us, do you know my friends back home are going to this thing called the lockdown? Not that, that's, yeah. Never. We'll be all right. It is fine. Never happening on these shores, but we thought, oh, let's get the team prepared.
So we Oh, did you?
Yeah. World good fortune. And
I think, don't think I've ever given you credit for it. You're like wanting me to do something here. We so [00:20:00] packed on the Friday, we're gonna get everyone ready for working from home, just in case this thing come happens to him. And lo and behold, Boris on the Monday said, we're going into lockdown Friday.
You can, I remember driving some of the guys to the homes in Clapton and in different areas. And then Sunday morning when the country was in panic, we were there, ready, business as usual. And then we surrendered the office and we never went back. Into office for two, three years. Yeah.
Came near
James Cohen: into Japan. If you remember 20 20, 20 21 April, 2021. They did, yeah. Coming out of lockdown. Yeah. And having the opportunity to come to a new space in a hot Camden. It was really light. Yeah. This refreshing. This is a new life for us. And there's been fantastic
Enrique Alonso: since I'm still proud at that moment because that I live south of the river candies.
As much as I could push multi south, from barn, I managed to speak. We negotiated down in Camden as was still
Stephen Drew: better. Yeah. It's cool. But it's interesting because not [00:21:00] our businesses survived the pandemic. It was a crazy time. So did you find that being agile and adapting then, did you actually pick up more projects?
Oh, it's hard to remember because it's a burn.
Motti Ifergan: It was dry. It really is. Yeah, I think we, we were. Bus, I dunno if it was more,
yeah. But the many industries were worse affect industry and many others, hospitality. We were fortunate that since that work didn't require
Stephen Drew: yeah,
Motti Ifergan: personal interaction and we weren't able for the most part, to to carry business as usual,
Enrique Alonso: person.
And you look at the, were, there were a few months where obviously every the world was in and all that. This kind of was very strange. And obviously world was kind coming down. But then, we do a lot of work as well for small and medium developers they also have to work, right?
Yeah, of course. Yeah. So that's one of the beauty of working in development is that, if you become as well, you want go to practice for the business, as long as they be c you as well, right? Yeah, no. So it picked up quite quickly. As I say, I [00:22:00] think the first few months were a bit tough and we were obviously all like at the edge of all seats, trying to understand what this going happen.
And then it did up, I would say, the pandemic overlap. A lot of different ways now to go a completely flexible arrangement. People work from mobile, from the office. They, we have has happens in London, people from all over the world, and they will work from their home countries whenever they go back as well and stay for a few more days or weeks.
Then they would allow just with annual leave. Yeah. And I think all of that was things as well to the pandemic. Yeah. We learned on a new way from a very digital way of working. Yeah. And they also allowed us to open like a, something like office in Spain. Nice. Almost two years ago now. And it's easy.
They almost feel like we, you come to the office on Monday and you don't see them, but you don't really realize that they are, 2000 miles away.
Stephen Drew: Yeah. Yeah. It's no it's great. I think that especially 'cause we both worked in our Architecture practices and I think the.
The consensus before the pandemic was you cannot do [00:23:00] Architecture unless it's in the, how can it possibly be? You need to be in five days, Richard School run. No, and it was actually quite interesting because we all learned how to do it, but that's really interesting. Maybe you can just expand what, on that subject, so you painted the picture of the arrangement.
But a little bit more, I'd love to know more about the culture of UPP 'cause that's special as well. So you've kept the best bits of the pandemic, it sounds like Eddie W right.
Enrique Alonso: I would say, I'm not sure if pandemic was obviously a horrible thing to happen, but, out of the worst things you can always, take always a Silver island.
Yeah. And for us, it really showed us a different way for Yeah. As you, you are asking about the culture and UPP, we are very young thing. We're very found young practice with literally like a newborn in the industry and we'd be very fortunate to, to, be very busy and to do great projects and to get to know great clients and to get to, to get, to assemble a great team Yeah.
Along the world. And people from all over the world as it happens. I will [00:24:00] say before in London, we have literally every single continent in our small team. And that's great because everyone brings a different perspective, a different culture, a different way of doing things, a different way of celebrating things when there's something to celebrate.
And I. Also like flexibility, for us, one of the thing that Pandemic showed us was that flexibility, true flexibility was possible. Yeah. And everyone has a different story. Everyone's got kids or any sort of like different day to day challenges that we all need to navigate.
As you were saying before, traditionally, especially Architecture, which is like way intense, we work like full on for as many hours as the day allows us to the day. But you can do it and you can plan those things in the way that allows you to live. And to carve along with the life that you want to live, right?
Yeah. So if we I think we are. Quite successful so far. Obviously there's so much to learn and so much to improve, but we've been quite successful so far in trying to build a team that can work in a on a very flexible arrangement. We, it was quite funny, a [00:25:00] side story when we were going back to the office and we run like a little survey, asking who would want to be more in the office, who want to be more at home.
And it's very interesting how you see different people react, right? And some people say, I wanna call on Saturdays, I need to get out of my house, and some of us were like, I'm happy where I've got my office set up at home and I don't wanna move from there. So we allowed everyone to be a bit more organic in that regard.
Yeah. And try to so we have a very, we have a kind of like a schedule in the office because we don't even have seats for every one of them, right? Yeah. But that's worked really well because, people can almost choose, how else they wanna come to the office. We normally tend to encourage the younger the team members side to come more to the office because of all the passive learning that they also get there.
And to be like close to the second people that you're constantly learning from. But at the end of the day, we want we want to have a life.
Stephen Drew: Yeah. Yeah.
Enrique Alonso: If we can make that work in terms of like our day to day and the work life balance that, that's for.
James Cohen: There, there's definitely [00:26:00] certain stages in the project where it's important to all be in the same room.
Yeah. Whilst there's a lot that we've learned from this and we can work dynamically, flexibly, there is also certain times where it actually works to be in that district setting where you're all in the same room, all under in the same desk. Yeah. There's definitely certain stages in a project or in the work that you're doing where it is important to come together as a team, but you've also got that flexibility there as well.
Yeah. Yeah.
Motti Ifergan: That, that's why the hybrid model really works, because you have times of people, these tasks bit more quiet. They can be at home and have to manage their work and life responsibilities. But then when meetings were in see one to share their things, being in person, there's another substitute for it.
Yeah. It's really taking the best of both of those. Which yeah, all those scenarios offers
Stephen Drew: well, may makes sense to me is, if UPP gonna be flexible, which is great, then it requires flexibility of everyone, isn't it? And there's also a big element of trust.
Motti Ifergan: Yeah. We to, that's a relationship with our, if we can't trust our own people.
Yeah. Course [00:27:00] can't trust. So it's really about giving that platform and that space to write again and then trust and in
Enrique Alonso: part it,
Stephen Drew: no,
Enrique Alonso: and that's not to say following day for saying for, there are certain times when you do need you press like a very good example is meetings with the local firm, for example.
Yeah, you've gotta be there.
Stephen Drew: Yeah. I'm, you can't bring a tablet in there. Exactly.
Enrique Alonso: And there was a time where all the three meetings and all the meetings with the open thought were, online and there was something really
Motti Ifergan: personal.
James Cohen: Yeah. They still only offer they were initially offer just a video meeting with you, your file and we're, we very quickly found that it's just not the safe.
Yeah. Even just the
Enrique Alonso: small tokens. We were having a small to before doing this, ki it just sets the tone completely. You you are working with people, you are talking to a machine, you are talking. So you know when you've already gone through that first part, let's get to know each other.
Let's get along and then we can work together. Then, subsequent meetings is fine. You can do them online and they're obviously very time efficient. Then everyone can [00:28:00] do them from whatever they are. Particularly for the first one. Always you face to face anything that, that always would have change.
Yeah.
James Cohen: I mean that, that goes back to what we were saying about trying to grow that relationship with various local authorities you work with. Yeah. Which we, in recent months of last year, we've been made been a real effort to, to kind do yeah.
Stephen Drew: Lost my phone there now. You did well.
Me too. You No, it's perfect. I think what would be really cool, 'cause that really sets the scene now, a lot of our, maybe watchers, hello, but allow listeners as well, because we got a lot of listeners, they might be hearing live stuff and gone. Really people need to apply. So we got the lower end medium in the upper end.
But in particular, so I know you do apprenticeships. I know you take on part one and probably Is it ing time? Planners? Yes. Apprentices. Yeah. So maybe if we open on that area for a bit, what do you guys look for in a kick ass portfolio from someone? So like [00:29:00] how do you think someone will grab your attentional?
Like what's a good application that grabs your attentionally?
Enrique Alonso: Good question. You like so you know just to start there. Yeah. And I break the ice with that for me, with, when someone is young and someone is just you finish their studies and they're trying to get, five old, first, second, third year or whatever.
For me, the most important thing is always the attitude. Yeah. You can have the most amazing portfolio if you are someone difficult to work with, or you are someone that is not willing to do things differently that they're used to or they difficult to work in a team. That person is really not what we're looking for.
Yeah, no. On the other hand, someone with the best that did maybe, they haven't had the best luck with what they've done before or maybe they don't have all the skills can be learned. We have a great team. We have a great team that supports each other and everyone learn even with, we've hired.
People that they didn't even [00:30:00] know the software before and, they struggled for a few weeks, but then it's sort about the attitude about how much they wanna learn or how much they want to progress. And then they pick up on that and, you didn't have the skills yesterday.
Yeah. Today with, and you are completely different person. So to me that attitude, when you see someone and you see that very quickly just in, in the first email, expected implication, and then it comes to our inbox, you already see when someone is really pushing for reading and so on. Or on the other hand, they just change the name and it's the same email that's going to a hundred practices, right? Yeah. So you can feel that. We see that from the fir the very kind of that first email conversation. And that's everything we need to know when we're hiring someone.
Yeah. Yeah.
Motti Ifergan: Nice. And the two things that stand out to me are how proactive someone is. So this is before we've met them, they could be that they'll submit their application then they'll stop contacting members of the team. They call the office. Yeah. So if someone really wanted, they're interested in us and they then they want to get opportunity for an interview.
Usually that, that always stands out to me. Anyway, if they're doing this for themselves, you'd expect to, they'll do the [00:31:00] same for their clients, for their projects. This shows the interest person, in fact just now often an apprenticeship to someone who she jumped in talent in box size and choose you what persistent.
The other thing is, this is more, it is conveying in the interview setting there's passion. And there's real energy. But that gives, there's positivity. So we look for a genuine interest in the in the subject matter and what we're doing. And. Think it's always good when they've taken their time to look at what we do as well.
Yeah. Not if you have like a generic responses, but Yeah. The real thing is passion. And again, that's not something that can be learned. So that's in equality. Yeah. No, mate. Makes, and I would point out to your listers that passion don't have to be loud and in, in your face.
It's more, there are deep season fashion and it could come out in Yeah, but it's does the face light up when they talk to you about their masters? Does, are they passionate about you when they tell you? One into the sector was when they were a child, they still been able with [00:32:00] being development that interests, that's passion.
Yeah.
James Cohen: So I think off the back also someone who's inquisitive, they ask the right questions, they want to learn. And also someone who's interested in both fields as well. If you can see someone who's picked up on the fact that UP is an integrated practice, yes, they may be applying for a town planning role.
But if they pick up on the fact that show interest in the Architecture side of things from the outset, it's okay, yeah. Then they understand what we're doing here and they can be a great asset to the team. Yeah.
Stephen Drew: No very cool. And that's interesting. So I think that's especially very, I think that the advice is good at all levels, but in particular, when you're starting out, it's nice to gear down.
The other thing that I'd just like to explore briefly is that we get a lot of architects in particular who get their qualification and they're like, congrats. And then they. Maybe oh, where do I want to go? Or, I find that we get a lot of inquiries from people who have gone to a large practice going, actually, I wanna time to work on this stuff.
I don't wanna be doing an airport. And so how, and maybe it's not the quick thing when people can change [00:33:00] straight away, but is there any advice for removing your careers, like at that middle point, if someone wants to go to that sector, did you find that a little bit calibrating from the large practices as well?
So
Enrique Alonso: To me, I loved working at at Fosters and at Big practices before, but you always feel that you are a small partner or very big team, right? As a big engine, and for good or bad, you are. Way very easy, right? Like you are part of a much bigger team.
The impact that you have to what you are doing is very minimal, right? And I always have this, feeling inside me of, I wanna create a bigger impact on the things that I'm doing. Yeah. So the beauty of working on a smaller draft, and the beauty of working on smaller projects is that you are almost in control over more things.
When you're working on a smaller team, you have percentage wise, a much bigger percentage of impact on responsibilities than if you are working, if you are very small percentage on a big project, right? Yeah. [00:34:00] So we always say as well, in every project, no matter if it's a, a small house abstention or a the largest airport in the world, you have to.
Approach the project exactly the same way. Is that, you have to understand what can be done. Why you working on that project can make a difference as opposed to anyone else working on it. There are much better architects out there. There will always be, and no one is here, is trying to be at the next genius.
But we are trying to do the best that we can. Yeah. The best processes that we can. And with the right approach, I was talking about attitude before it, that you bring that, humble attitude. That's the kind of like you treat every product normal. What size? No, what budget in the same way and you would achieve great things, right?
So someone in like already advancing their careers. Maybe they have the feeling that they're not making as much impact as they would like, or as they feel they can, they wanna be a lot more in control of every aspect of the project they want and control every aspect of the project.
As I was saying before, not only [00:35:00] from a design perspective, construction and financial viability and local authority and clients. And there, there's, Architecture is a fascinating world where you have so many stakeholders in a project and we are just a small part of it that keeps everything moving.
And we have the ability to really make an impact on everything that we do. That's why we are fell in love with what I do,
Yeah. Long demo model.
Stephen Drew: Yeah. No, it make, it makes sense.
James Cohen: Yeah. I think you also do get more exposure to those different parts of a project though, if you are, if you're working in a bigger practice and you're focusing on one particular element of a project.
That'd be it. You just focus on that and you pass it onto to your seniors and often good. When you are part of a smaller practice working with all these other stakeholders a lot more closely. Big bigger part of that process. Yeah. You do naturally get exposure to all of those other considerations and Yeah.
And you can apply it to, to, to your work and apply it to the next project. Yeah. And another thing is fulfillment, right? So a lot of the projects that we've worked on over the years, yes. A lot of them have been vocals to, to where I live in North London base. But I can drive down the High Street and see projects [00:36:00] that we've worked on.
And in a bigger practice you might not get that, that kinda sense of fulfillment, that sense of Yeah. Art achieved that and we saw that right from the beginning, three to the end. Yes the responsibility that you have is a lot greater, but then also the fulfillment and the sense of ownership that you get as a result of it is also up there.
Stephen Drew: No it's clear that, and, but how was that initial first step? Was it a leap of faith to go from the, to the smaller to to something to basement?
Enrique Alonso: There's always a bit of a little faith. Yeah. Yes. But it very much goes as to how you live your life as well. Yeah. I'm, speaking personally about me, I'm someone that gets bored very easily. Yeah, me too. It's like when I feel like I'm doing the same, for a certain period of time I'm like craving for something more.
And I think, the challenge of building up something and the challenge of becoming like the almost like most the biggest person on a project in a way even how small it is, I'm saying this, we have our, architects and project, the senior architects managing their own projects, managing their clients and having [00:37:00] everybody else as support, but they become the person and the clients colleague.
There's something happening or the contract, the authority, and they are really, truly managing everything that they do. And that really yes, it's a leap of faith, but it's also the belief that you can build something based on what you've learned in the past and take like the good that you've learned in the past.
And the, we've, I've learned an incredible amount of things from the places that I worked with, and I believe we've, almost imported some of those things and then changed all the things that we didn't. That I and we've, we're very fortunate to, we managed to bring after me another two people from from Fosters as well.
We are creating this, we've seen in the Architecture side of the practice how it's done, kinda like high level. And we will always be extremely grateful for our experience there. And we're trying to take the best things and the approach that we learned there, mountain, trying to change it.
So to make it own.
Stephen Drew: Yeah, no, I've said very inspirational. Almost convinced me to go back to our [00:38:00] Yeah. Almost. Although I would, I don't know if you're doing great Steven. Don't worry. You know what? My technical drawings, you UPP will be going back in the basement. Yeah. We can't do that.
But no, really inspirational. The only, the last thing I wanted to touch upon with that, because mother, you left. Career in law. And I think that's quite brave because some, I've noticed some people also message me going I want to do with that, but I'm scared. Or, would it be seen as a failure?
There's all this kind of psychological stuff. How, what's your thoughts on that? Is there any advice on that area? And like you even shared on how you push past that and here you are.
Motti Ifergan: Yeah, sure. So certainly if you get this idea in your header at a young age, I want to become a lawyer or I any professional unionist restricting yourself and you're committed to that.
And then longer you, you go through having a career change or a change of academic path can be daunting. Yeah. I was fortunate or at least committed to completing the course [00:39:00] qualifying and then changing. 'cause you always just need to fall back on.
Stephen Drew: Yeah.
Motti Ifergan: For me personally I've found law committee, it has a great grounding and I think it it helps every day planning is legislation. Policy is legislation, so lot of steals that you gain course and in practice are transferrable. And in fact you'll see that with most with most subjects that there's always a transferrable skills.
Even just know how to own guitar skill or know how to get degree and to doing masters in any subject is a skill. But I found it was just about passion for that. I didn't have passion. Yeah. Legal work and very paper driven exercises. And it was fortunate to, to have to start passion.
Stephen Drew: Yeah. Good for you. No, it's nice to do that, mate. I always think that if you, if perhaps you didn't do that, you probably regret it, right? I know I would've. So you gotta take the plunge. May maybe it would've, if I was working with you, I, maybe I would've saved, but guys do. Yeah we've dealt the hand. We dealt with.
No, but [00:40:00] cool. So we done in the past to the basement, now we're in the it's really cool. The future maybe in terms of, obviously you PDI think will go up and up. I, however, and it wasn't a joke there, it was banging on about ai. Artificial intelligence, it's gonna take our jobs.
I'm not too sure about that. But are you starting to see all this technology lead into what you do? And also you are in quite a unique position because you've got the founding aspects on both sides up as well as the Architecture. Do you have any thoughts for where things are going here at the moment?
Enrique Alonso: Hundred percent. Obviously AI is there. It's not that. It's coming. It's there already. Yeah. And it's and if you don't search, listen, if you are not like really harvesting that tool and making it part of your day. Process, you're gonna become a dinosaur very quickly.
Yeah. It's, it for us, RG DC creates an amazing opportunity because it's almost like what we've always spent hours and hours to test, you can do it in the, in second.
So we are obviously using, and we have obviously a lot to learn, [00:41:00] but we're constantly trying to train ourselves and deep on the interest of everyth element of the team as well, that that try to learn more about it to try to really, at, especially at the very early stages of project it's an amazing generator of ideas in terms of, trying to visualize something.
Yeah. Very good data. Trying to test different things and help you the same way that you will find, some reference projects regarding a magazine or read a book. You can use AI to help you. Find different things and sometimes you even get through prices, yeah. And this, which is amazing.
And think about some things that that you don't necessarily would've been able to explore in. Yeah. Right. Obviously in Tivity it looks like we've been using that for 15 years now. We've
Motti Ifergan: it's same.
Stephen Drew: Yeah. Any, anything and data entry and stuff, I think it can be really powerful.
Or just getting going with ideas. So
Motti Ifergan: something interesting about, about AI as well, that you, when explaining things to clients, sometimes you can get hooked up in, in colom and industry language and then Yeah. Adapt things to the audience. And they are [00:42:00] particularly good. Good. That if you're explaining something to.
Something with the council or private sector or for, it could be to, to a store. So it's just being able to tell your mature to, to the audience. It's really the summarizing things. So that be the option to don't be say enough. Yeah. Yeah. And you don't wanna be, have pages in Google Age.
James Cohen: Yeah. To me it really fast tracks that research process.
So if there's a big policy document and a secondary kind of guidance document from a certain level of authority, and I've got clients on the phone that's asking me, I need to understand how much massing or what kind of building I can get in this area, whether I can change the use of a building in this particular area and I can use AI to fast struggle of that research process, pick out the exact policy and guidance that we're living before and communicate to, to the client in a matter of minutes.
Yeah. Whereas before it would be me or another member of the team scrolling through that whole policy document, picking out policies manually and then communicating it. So to be able to fast track that whole process. And allow [00:43:00] us to focus on the outlets work that we do. It's fantastic.
Yeah, no, fair enough. Fair. We,
Enrique Alonso: We need to find ways to, to use it and everyone has its different ways of harvesting to the kind of, the opportunity. Yeah. As we were saying before, the world is constantly evolving. It's fast paced more than ever, and you give can find ways to really try to, stay ahead of the trend that's what we should go try to do.
Stephen Drew: Yeah. No very cool. And the other thing in the future, so the time we recording this, so this is what, September, 2024? I should know that, that but it's been tricky after the pandemic with the current markets, certain sectors being more hit than others. But do you feel positive about the sentiment of which we're going at the moment in the uk, just a new government?
Do you think things feel optimistic from your point of view? I.
Enrique Alonso: We're always optimistic. You mind ask how you really saved before you, even if like everything around you seems to be going south. You need to stay positive and you need to really always try to see the [00:44:00] silver value on everything that you're doing.
Certainly the changing government has, rocks and things. Yeah, course. Yeah. And we're very optimistic that things really very quickly and we're seeing a lot of amazing things happening already around us. The world is a very strange place now. Yeah. There are a lot of things that you don't know how they're gonna evolve, but you gotta keep going.
You've gotta take all the opportunities that you have and make the most of them and, things will, live life covers on. Yeah. You know, just
James Cohen: On the new government, there's a lot of messages about big development and and the work for the kind of major house builders across the uk.
Obviously a lot of our clients are small to medium developers. So we'd yet to hear really about what's in store for them for us and our clients. But in terms of remaining optimistic, of course we, yeah. Thanks. So
Motti Ifergan: there's no substitute for good work. You just keep your head down. I not we too much all, although the, that gets thrown around.
She has to do work. Usually good work will follow again, anything be okay. That's so things are beyond your control, but you can only worry about the things that are in your control. Yeah. Even [00:45:00] controls that work. Yeah. So
Stephen Drew: that's absolutely approach me too. That's good advice. That's kind carried you.
Fighting in the pandemic, I think it's a great, you've got to be aware what's
Motti Ifergan: going on, but if you're too busy looking around and then worrying about everything Yeah.
Stephen Drew: What actually,
Not doing the, get what we
Motti Ifergan: meant to do.
Stephen Drew: Yeah. No, brilliant. And I guess the last question for me is, what's next for UPP?
Just carrying out or we,
Motti Ifergan: We're never static. Yeah.
Stephen Drew: Yeah. A lot of room keeps going. Yeah. Yeah.
Enrique Alonso: I think we, we are team of people that we think we're particularly good at seeing opportunities and rubbing them, with hands and feet, right? As I was mentioning before, we open our office in Spain a year, almost two years now ago.
There's a great community there for us. We have a small team of four people and that's part of obviously the future of UBP. We've been working on some international projects as well that, expanding for us. And, we have this. Big focus in the UK and like the island, everything that we can like move [00:46:00] abroad, that's also in the future for us.
We are hopefully moving offices as well. Next next year I can Oh, really close. I can't disclose much. Yeah. Watch this space. Yeah. But it's we're very excited about the opportunity that is there for us designing our own space. Wow. So cool. Yeah. So that's also like in yeah.
For us and, naturally, we're always, I think we tend to like flying the ladder maybe a bit faster than that then we shoot sometimes, but we know we're working and we are working on some potential opportunities that are great for us. Even too big. Someone would say, and and we passionate along and excited. Almost
Motti Ifergan: so cool. As you can't see, we're a young firm forever, so there's always, yeah, the only times where, but there's groom maturity that comes along. So moving to our own space where we can not just have the great workspace also hosted bands q and a sessions like speaks and engage with community or also, or yeah, students just have it with
Enrique Alonso: our [00:47:00] sector.
Stephen Drew: Nice. And there's something,
Enrique Alonso: there's something quite interesting as well, because, part of being a young firm is that, Architect of project, especially in a building environment that take a long time to materialize. A lot of the projects that we were working on, two or three years ago are coming to an end now.
So you are, it is now from like the last few years we're starting to see, some of the things that we worked on that a few years. It's really now we're like constantly, seeing like a whole spectrum of, from inception to completion. Yeah. So it's very attacking times for us as well.
Stephen Drew: Very cool. Perfect. And just before we tell everyone where they can find you, I normally like to say to my guests, if you have any questions for me and you can just give me any zinger, like the way I've been giving them to you. Is there anything you wanna ask about me? It could be about my.
Korean
Enrique Alonso: have questions you no. I'm just gonna ask how many times
Motti Ifergan: to ask
Stephen Drew: you one
James Cohen: inch, what was the [00:48:00] deciding point for you? You turn away from practice. And start before you do it today?
Stephen Drew: Yeah, good question. I was the chatter box, so I was also a lot of practice which had fear. Yeah. They have free kitchens and like my, my, my teaming leader, they would be like, where is Steve?
And I would deliberately go to the other ones. And then I there's almost director and I knew if I asked him about his kids and stuff, that would be 10 minutes. I don't have to do drawing. So I was that guy, but ironically I left it Edward, I've been there going I wanna go home.
And then, now you're in business, you just the hours go. So it goes back to you just gotta find your something. And I think that, I think sometimes the one thing I've noticed that I think Architectural professionals underestimate their abilities. 'cause we get trained, but they're hardcore. But you learn a lot. And that's exactly like parts of running the business. Everything's a great preparation, pitching yourself. And yeah, I mean I enjoyed that, but it was complete accident. I I didn't know what I wanted to do at the time. I went into a recruitment office, like just spoke and they were like, Hey, you seem [00:49:00] chat when you go here.
And I was like, I'll do it for six or seven weeks and then I'll get a proper job. And then you end up doing it longer than the Architecture. Was it recruitment in a same field or just for architects? I thought, I should standing. I should. Yeah. Yeah. And it's nice 'cause then you care about it a bit more and being, you see a lot behind the scenes, you learn, and this, so it's interesting.
It's interesting. Probably got a few stories though. I can't, so if you catch me the pub, I'll tell you them. But I, on the, like it works both ways, but yeah, that's somewhere got, yeah, I've
Motti Ifergan: got all these things. Yeah, please. You're in this podcast. Yeah. You've said. Before that you got about 400. Yeah. Practices or interviews.
Yeah. So you must have a really unique perspective of the industry. Yeah. But I'm particularly interested in, in, or how you seen firms harnessing ai, which we'll touch on. Yeah.
Stephen Drew: I think actually it's. The people that are leaning into it, I think more progressive and actually business owners I think are tending to lean into it more.
And I think they see the value. And if I think my [00:50:00] experience, I've spoke to people, the business owner or senior management bought in, then it can trick from the fruit company a lot more. Whereas what I find is someone's passionate about it and they maybe able to alert to me they'll, he can't do the name.
But as I think it'll really follow top down. But I think there's massive progression that, that what's interesting, even though yes, it's the Architecture, Social, and we do love the design disciplines. Actually it seems like ai, the common theme, this is all the mundane stuff in the background. So I, the theme from having done these podcasts is that it's more an enabler of the design, ruling out the mundane, I I think that's the way, that's the common theme I'm seeing and that's what I'm doing. What you're saying. You're using AI to complete the more und day things and allow you to focus the design one first raft of a press release, first raft of, 'cause it's never just an AI article, but it's more just getting that thing going.
The whole ideation. Yeah. And I think that's where it re, I really sees the value or document reading, [00:51:00] although I still wanna check for myself, but I agree with you. It's like it gets going quicker, where should I be looking for this and that. So yeah, it, to me, that's what my guess is seen.
And it's quite interesting speaking to the two in front. I think with efficiency, it cleaned itself really well. And yeah, I, it seems that the conversations gravitate less towards Hey, it's mid journey, and woo, that's cool, but more about how can we actually save time efficiency, because time is money really in business, isn't it?
So if you can do that, then you could focus on all cool stuff, but yeah. Does that, did I answer everyth? Yeah. I It's emerging as well, isn't it? And I think you get these new case studies and they go, what many like mini, mini complete. Yeah. Topic of change for a sec. I use it for programing now on our website.
Submit a calculator for fees. So we gonna, and and actually the RDAs fee calculator doesn't work. RIBA, what you doing? I'm cutting for you. But I was like, oh, cool, stuff [00:52:00] like that, really useful. And then people use that. And on the last minute, quick story, my colleague, I said, Hey, I've got like a no dispute calculator.
And he was like, oh, not stupid. People can just work it out. It's the most I popular page. 'cause everyone goes, I need the work out my notice. And you just, you can't assume people will or will not use it just because you would. But that deal calculator, I don't know any coding, but I know enough to go, I want this.
Okay, let's do this and react, this's, hit the problem. Okay. Can do it. Send this possibly. Yeah, that's it. Any last questions before we wrap? I,
Enrique Alonso: I do have one for you. One more? Yeah. I don't wanna put you on this phone. Yeah, please. So feel free. You've talked to, many practices, you've done many of these things.
You got to know us a little bit more now. Yeah. Hopefully a little bit. Do you have any noise? Was
Stephen Drew: Oh, I actually
Enrique Alonso: practice then.
Stephen Drew: No, I feel, I think it's great. I found it really inspirational and I think that it's, so special this planning in the [00:53:00] Architecture, marriage, work together.
I'm just quite excited to see more of those and I think yeah, you can do just the Architecture and tampon and that's grand, but those projects where you do the both of them should be totally sound great. I think it's amazing and I think that I just encourage the way that you embrace true flexibility and I think that conversation is really empowering as one 'cause we know and also what from this talk that I thought was really great.
So you've talked about like a high trust environment. 'cause it is really or even for me 'cause like I'm building a smaller distance as well. I'm unlike you a few years, I'm not quite in the basement, but other than that I'm trying to get out of it and it's really inspirational for me. 'cause we trust is hard to, sometimes you'll get learned because we're all people and make mistakes.
But. It feels like to me it's much more worth it, for the one, one or two fans that you're not. But actually I think people appreciate it and you keep good people around longer and stuff, so no, I think you going, where you going and, if you get really big now you go [00:54:00] don't you know, you go, remember on the streets if I down Cambodia, I don't know where your new place is.
Yeah. You got, okay, the last, is it near Road or Morad, watch this. Ah, okay. Fair enough. Thank you so much guys. I really appreciate this. Where can people find you if they want to get in touch, review for whatever needs, if they want a job or if they like what you do for projects, how can they find you all online?
LinkedIn. On LinkedIn, Instagram got our own website now as well. And the domain is for the order of business.
Enrique Alonso: So it's, we are VP of called the bp. Okay. We there, we have all contact details there. Looking forward to hearing from
Stephen Drew: a of view. Amazing. Thank you for that. On that note or show, look to the other camera as well.
We will end the light's live stream. I'm so used to saying that forward. No, we'll end the normal livestream. Livestream now, but thank you so much and thank you as well for organized. You guys wanna get on camera really quickly? Go on. Ready. [00:55:00] Thank you for organizing,
Stephen.
Not problem. Thank you everyone.