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Creativity isn’t tidy—it’s risky, chaotic, and full of surprises. It’s full of breakthroughs and breakdowns, moments of flow and moments of doubt. Join Mishu Hilmy for unfiltered conversations with artists, filmmakers, musicians, and fearless makers who thrive in the unknown, embrace imperfection, and create at the edge of possibility.
This is your front row seat to the self-doubt, unexpected wins, and messy emotional work of making something real. But craft isn’t just about feeling—it’s about problem-solving, process, and the devotion behind mastery.
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Mishu Hilmy (00:01)
Welcome to Mischief in Mastery where we embrace the ups, downs, and all around uncertainty of a creative life and that steady and sometimes not so steady journey toward expertise. Each episode we talk candidly with people I know, people I don't know, folks who produce, direct, write, act, do comedy, make art, make messes, and make meaning out of their lives. You will hear guests lay out how they work, what they're thinking about, where they get stuck, and why they snap out of their comfort zones and into big, bold,
risky moves. So if you're hungry for honest insights, deep dives into process philosophies and practical tips, plus maybe a little mischief along the way, you're in the right place. For more, visit mischiefpod.com. Hello everyone. Welcome to Mischief and Mastery. This is Mishu speaking and today we are talking to Julia Rilova. She is a queer Filipino American filmmaker, creative producer and community builder based in Chicago. She co-founded Room 19 Productions, a company
committed to telling stories that center women both on the screen and behind the camera. In addition to her work on film, Julia brings years of program management experience across big tech and nonprofits, including her current role at Naturally Network, where she supports emerging food and beverage brands. She's also helped produce indie features like Roller Babies and Year One and is passionate about intentional
storytelling, collaboration, and creating space for underrepresented voices in both creative and operational spaces. We talk about celebrating other people's projects that succeed, as well as scarcity mindset, how it can creep in, even if you're rooting for your peers and what it takes to shift from producing for others to prioritizing your own creative work. We also talk about writing boundaries, autobiographical fiction, and that tough decision point when you're at a script and you
Mishu Hilmy (01:49)
want to go in two directions and don't know which one to do. So if you relate to that, please keep listening. You can find more about Julia on Instagram at JuliaRulova, as well as Room19 at Room.19Productions. I'll have that in the show notes. And you can check out her podcast, AnywhereIsHome-Podcast.com. I'll have all those links available. So hope you enjoy this delightful chat with a friend of mine, Julia Rulova.
Julia Relova (02:00)
I've been watching a lot of projects that I'm really excited about that I'm not working on. Just kind of get their flowers kind of. So yesterday there was at Tribeca this whole event that AT &T puts on for untold stories, that's what it's called. And somebody that I watched at the Prue Film Festival in LA won a million dollars to...
or her feature, it's called Take Me Home and it's about her sister who is cognitively disabled is actually an actress in the film and it's a story that centers around her. And for me personally, like I have a brother who is on the spectrum and so it's a very like close to my heart story and seeing her get that was like super exciting for me and like has been really getting my juices flowing this morning. So.
It's also like a generous headspace to see someone who's probably making something thematically within the world that you've experienced get some traction and success. And I'm sure maybe there's also a degree of envy and jealousy, but it seems like overall there's more celebration and gratitude that you're seeing someone you're familiar with their work from the past at Proof make some headway.
Yeah, no, you read my mind. It's like that idea of like, wow, this is so exciting. Like we don't see this representation often. The director writer's name is Liz Sargent and her being able to make a pathway for this film is so exciting. But at the same time, think because of this world we live in and the scarcity mindset we've been raised in, it's like, well, now I never get a million dollars to tell my story as a sibling of somebody who is autistic. But, you know, that's
Julia Relova (04:00.49)
scarcity of mindset coming in. Something I'm trying to practice in my creative work to remember is a lie.
the scarcity mindset, especially within like the industry, I think, as I relate and that like, yeah, what was it the substance just dropped? And I think you were aware that I was working on a body for that wasn't so much we're just like, yeah, always over saturation, like, of body horrors, like, it seems like it is, but it's like, easy to think of, like, yeah, it's there's not there's not an abundance in the world, but using the industry to kind of
Forecast around like market trends of being like, all right, I'm out there can only be one story about cognitive disabilities any given, year, which isn't true, but there's also the thing of like the level of scale. You can make any story anytime you want, but I just think it's the degree of like the scale and the money and the attention can be, I think a little bit easier to go. There's only, there's only so much.
Yeah, and to your point about like body horror like that's something that I've also like picked up on like wow I've like seen in 2025 five body horrors or proof of concepts about body horrors But each one is so different and each one tells a different story in its own way and so it's just reminding myself as a creative as well that Yes, there's similar themes, but the stories are still extremely different
So in terms of like where you're at creatively right now, because I know you've done, you have room 19, you know, that you're a co-producer on. So like, where are you at at least recently in terms of creativity? Are you still focused mostly on producing or are allowing yourself to write? Have you done any directing recently? Like where is like the predominance of your energy?
Julia Relova (05:35.374)
Yeah, so Rube 19, you know, there's me Jamie Kreppen 10 and I'm Monty Davis and so this year I kind of talked to the team about how I personally have been missing focusing on our own projects in the last few years, know, we've been helping produce a lot of short films within like the Chicago indie scene, but I personally was like I
really want to recenter ourselves and our work in the projects we're working on. And so it's great because we each have a project that's kind of in a different stage and we're all intertwined into each other's work. But Jamie's in post-production for Roller Babies, feature she directed and that I produced. Amani is in production right now for Traveling Discreetly, a proof of concept that she's doing. And I am writing a feature, my first feature.
and aiming to have a draft by the end of the month. This month I've been aiming for a draft for a while, but I'm like, this is it. This is the month. Yeah, exactly. So it's cool because those are the three projects I'm working on this year and that I've tried to also have my boundaries around. So a little bit of producing, but hopefully a whole lot of writing is kind of what 2025 is looking like.
Well you're on the record now.
Mishu Hilmy (06:56.162)
And when you say this sort of like boundaries around like how does that at least practically manifest if you don't mind.
Yeah, so for me, I've mostly been a producer in my career in film and so I get a lot of projects pitched to me and I have had a record of you know, really loving a project in doing donating my time and skills for either a low budget or for free and so I kind of made the decision this year that for me to work on a project that wasn't within these three projects. It had to fit.
a certain set of criteria in compensation, time, theme, and what the product is for me to sign on as a producer.
Like that, like something it saves you from the anxiety of like the spontaneous ask, you know, even if it's at a networking event or via email, the spirit of like, I should probably respond to this email and like, yeah, let's set up a meeting or you can just clock and go, well, no, this, I need to have three out of five met or whatever those criteria are. And I think that's an easier way of filtering that I've been trying to also like implement in my life.
general. Yeah. And you know, being honest about like, you know, this year is for me and my creative process and journey. it's, know, most artists respect that and understand. like, haven't had any problems telling people that. And most of them are like, good for you. Like, I'm very excited for you. And they're also on that journey themselves, because, you know, them asking me to do a project is usually a project that they're working on and focusing on for themselves.
Mishu Hilmy (08:27.438)
So it sounds like there might have been some challenges with at least this writing the feature. So are you still kind of in the midst of like outlining or are you sort of like, you know, 30, 40, 80 pages in? You don't have to talk too much in detail because I also believe in the value of like the more you talk about something, the less likely you are to do it. But at least process wise, how have you been navigating consistency?
I started really strongly with an outline. Like I had a very specific and detailed approach to how I wanted to write this feature. And I think part of why it's been kind of taking me a long time is it is a little bit autobiographical and there have been things in my life that have come up that have now informed how I see the original outline. And it's taking a lot in me to accept that.
and be like, okay, I need to revisit the outline because this was kind of going in a newer direction. So I am like halfway through right, like 50 pages into writing it, which has been like a good success for me. I'm like, wow, the fact that I even got in this far is amazing, but it's at that turning point where I kind of have two different versions of the script that I can go and I just can't commit to either one in my head. So.
both right both
Mishu Hilmy (09:45.102)
I think it's like time. I don't think the issue is time. I think the issue is energy. I think it's like there's there's more than enough time that gets wasted in my day. Like I'm up for 16 hours. I would say the most of it is just like me milling around the apartment, like walking in the kitchen, opening the fridge, walking in living room and then spending like two hours on TikTok. So it's not so much time, but I think we really only have like two to four hours of energy. And if you're exerting that two to four hours of energy on something that's creatively challenging at your day job or a different project that you're working on with room 19.
You might have like 10 minutes in the bank and it's easy to go, I do have 10 minutes in the bank, but nah, I'm just going to fuck around and like rot on my couch.
No, that's totally true. And thanks for like calling that out because energy is also something I've been thinking a lot of lately and maybe being like hyper aware of. And it is a lot. And it's crazy to think like, wow, there's 24 hours of the day, but so much of it is drained energy. And when you fill it with socializing or you fill it with the other side of being creative to you of like collaborating with people and talking to people and
I am lucky to be an extrovert, but I think it's, you know, as I get older, a lot harder to gauge that energy and control that energy too. I think.
I think it's like the patterns and the impulses, right? Especially around extraversion. It's like, I could do something that's maybe more solitary and maybe aligned with the ethics and integrity of like my creative aspirations for this day or this month or this week. Or I could like text a friend and like, let's do coffee or drinks tomorrow. And then that one and a half, two hours, you would have potentially had the energy and time to like, right? You're like, no, I'm just grabbing a drink.
Julia Relova (11:23.95)
And then I justify it with I told him about the project so that was good. But yeah, it is a balance for sure
Yeah, I was talking, I think with someone a few days ago, maybe George Elze around consistency and motivation. And I'm like really socially motivated. Maybe it is that extroverted element. I think you might maybe you remember, but last year I was like, anytime I didn't write, I would just go on Instagram stories and be like, put your name in the hat or in the wheel and I'll give you like five bucks because I didn't write today. So like that was a nice way to shame me. And I wrote a I think I wrote a script in like 45 days of first draft and it was trash. But it was like at least it got done.
But I think I found that to get consistency, social motivation helps. So that's something to maybe think about, social humiliation.
I've been trying to do that with my physical health life. like, I'm running a 5K on Sunday and like maybe two months ago, it's like donate money and I'll run a mile for every $25 I raise. Guess how many miles I've ran? And I raised $500. So I'm like, I need, so I'm going to do it on the backend. I'm actually like two nights is when I'm going to start running and I'll keep running.
I think we're around like very creative and ambitious folks. And I think the risk of that is like, we have also like a lot of interests. If you're creative, ambitious and passionate, it's like, it's not just the one thing. It's not just like, need to write the script.
Mishu Hilmy (12:49.31)
or I need to socialize with my friends. It's also like, yeah, I want to do healthy habits. want to go to the gym regularly. I want to learn a new language. I want to practice my painting, my piano, and I also need to write the script. So it's like, I think that's just like a difficult spirit to really talk about boundaries. Like, how do you rein in what's essential? I just, I read a book, Greg McEwen's essentialism, didn't really like it, but I did connect with some of the spirits of like the non-essentialist mindset is like, I can do everything versus the essentialist mindset. It's like,
You can't everything has its trade off. But I think if we're sort of not not essentialist mindsets like there are no trade offs. I can I can do it all. But then you're just like exhausted and like half assing most things.
Yeah, for sure. And I think that's a constant battle that I have. It's funny, someone recently had recommended that book to me as well. But for me, it's tapping into journaling and getting into the habit of that and making it a habit of
journaling about my priorities. I think and reminding myself constantly of what I've aimed to do within this year, within this month, within this week, within this day. And sometimes it feels really repetitive, but at the same time, it's like, feel like what really drives in and nails the nail on the coffin of this is what I'm doing and this is what I'm aiming for. Because yeah, I'm, I'm a generalist. I'm a Jill of all trades. So it's really easy to distract me.
That's the interesting thing about priorities in plural, because it's like, if you have a list of 10, this is straight from the Essentialist book, you can't have 10 priorities. That defeats the purpose of a priority. So for me, it's sometimes hard to commit to go like, today, these are the two things, this is it. These are the two priorities when my habits are like, oh, I want to do 13, 14 different things, and to be like, how to kind of practice the muscle being okay with like, you know.
Mishu Hilmy (14:36.424)
I wrote that's enough or I cleaned the kitchen and I did my taxes. That's enough. So yeah, just like commit to like a small bank of priorities for me is like very,
Yeah, I agree. Like every day I try to narrow down my like 17 tasks to just three or five because at this point that's what I have the capacity to do, you know, so.
And then I have a question when it comes to at least this project, like how, how do you navigate the struggle of something that is somewhat autobiographical or self revelatory? Cause I think that for me would like add more inhibition, insecurity and like fear of like, Oh, I gotta make this right. I gotta make this perfect. I can't misspeak because it's revealing something that is ostensibly or obviously about myself. So like what's, what's been your relationship with autobiography and the discomfort that I'm projecting onto it? Maybe it's a joy.
I don't know. Yeah, I was about to say it's interesting that you said that in the sense of like, I need to get it right. Because in my head, the way that I have it is like, I hope I can make this less like me so that no one knows. Like everyone knows, but that like it's not explicitly like.
today, like I struggled with this and everyone knows now that that's something that I constantly struggle with or more specifically, like my relationships, you know, like I don't want anyone to know who specifically maybe a character has been mainly inspired by, you know, I want it to be a compilation of the people I know and the relationships I've had and the different situations I've had with all of them, because I don't want it to be able to be pinpointed on one person.
Julia Relova (16:14.286)
So I think the challenge for me is making it less like myself because also to make it even more relatable too, right? I think that's always part of entertainment and telling stories as you want people to relate on it on a different level. so balancing that specificity with more general themes and ideas is something that I'm also challenging myself to do with this.
It just like makes me think of maybe not so much generalizing it but making it less literal and like the the truth or your sort of your life is just a jumping-off point so it's like it sounds like you're at least have a solid relationship of like I don't need to make this so literal just because like this person wears this type of coat you know aftershave or they drove this type of car or it happened on October 1st versus you can do it whatever like the linear linearness or chronology doesn't actually matter
So like letting go of like the literalness is probably a helpful, a healthy approach rather than like, no, this is my story. has to be absolutely, you know, honest and true.
Yes, exactly. And I think for me too, it's, you know, the reason I'm telling this story isn't to detail my life. The idea is to send a message that I've learned through these experiences that I think is helpful for other people who might be in similar situations or feelings to relate to and use as a way of reassurance and validation that they're not.
I hear you mentioned to send a message but it seems like more it's like to witness and observe rather than maybe I the concerns always like didactic this like is this education things can be educational But is it the spirits like teach or is it the spirits like witness observer relate? I don't know. Like are you do you struggle? Are you struggling with that kind of thought or are you feeling pretty like locked in confident? Like you're not necessarily making like a message piece or a teaching piece
Julia Relova (18:07.808)
in this particular project, this particular feature I'm writing right now, I'm not too worried about educating. I'm actually nervous about miseducating people on some of the things that I'm doing. So for a little context, it's about a daughter who is trying to convince her mother to try weed for some chronic illnesses she's facing. so, you know, that's a tough topic. So I don't want to miseducate anyone. But I also am talking about it from
and experience and from personal evidence that this is something that could be helpful for, again, a particular person not to be generalized or et cetera. I think that's also something that stops me in my writing sometimes is am I being correct in this? Is there anything problematic that can be taken from this? I'm telling myself that's for the second draft, not for the first draft.
Yeah, yeah. I'm a big fan of writing the most offensive, problematic first draft because no one should ever see it. No one can dare to see it. Yeah, think it's tough because I imagine you do have a degree of ethics and integrity, especially in the 21st century about harm and harm reduction. And at the same time, this isn't a fun place to be when it comes to the joy of writing at the first draft level. And that's why you have revisions and read-throughs and you get the outside perspective of, yeah, in draft number three, this felt very weird and kind
problematic. great, well at least we didn't read through versus you actively censoring yourself because you're like uncertain in the moment.
Exactly. And that goes back to the importance of collaboration and talking to other people about these things. Because like you said, like we're only the experts in our own lives and our own perspectives. And so I think with filmmaking, it's crucial to have these collaborators and outside eyes who maybe are first time collaborators who don't have a bias about you even. So to get that perspective and that clarity.
Mishu Hilmy (20:02.894)
Totally, yeah, because I know about you, I didn't get into writing or the arts to fact check. Like I just didn't. And at the same time, I'm aware, like you want to be kind and generous to the targeted audience you want to share your work with. But at least the creative process, unless it's like performance art that requires an audience to exist to a degree, like it doesn't. No one's going to see it. So like I'm not beholden to any sort of integrity or rules other than what the FBI might watch on or the NSA might watch on your hard drive.
Yeah, no, totally agree. And also I'm coming to the terms too, that we live in a world where no matter what you put out and how much you fact checked it or how much you've asked somebody for their opinion that might know more, you're going to get criticism, you're going to get opinions. And so I try to function or be motivated more by this is a conversation starter. If I did something wrong, if I approach something incorrectly, like it's worth the conversation to have. So that's how I...
started to look at my work at least to give me some sense of just keep doing it, you know.
It's like also to let go, right? Like also there's like misunderstanding, you know, people took Fight Club or the Wolf of Wall Street as an endorsement and exciting on certain like, you know, toxically masculine behavior. So there's also a world where you can put something out there and it's co-opted, you know, Birth of a Nation was co-opted and sort of reignited the KKK. like there's there's things that can kind of develop that are out of your control.
Yeah, it's a struggle, not a struggle, but something as an artist that you have to be aware of, especially in this day and age of mass media, consumerism, everything can just be anywhere and it's out of your hands. There could be a point where you post something for a day and someone screen grabs it and uses it and puts it on YouTube for everyone to see without you knowing for years.
Julia Relova (21:58.9)
As artists, we need to be prepared to let go of our work, which is scary.
Right. Are there other things that are sort of like on your mind, whether it's with room 19 or other creative kind of project?
Yeah, you know, I've just been thinking about what it means to be an artist and also a cheerleader for other artists and other creators and without comparing yourself to them kind of similar to our first how we started this call today. But I think when it comes to my creative work to I've been trying to think more widely to like the bigger picture of
what do I one day want to be known for if I'm not even known, you know, but what is the direction of the work that I want to do, especially as maybe next year, as I open up to producing more work outside of my own canon again, what does that mean and what kind of projects I want to be intentional about creating with others. As a producer, you know, you do a lot from logistics to creative insights and
thoughts, but I think I've had kind of the latter experience or the first experience more of being a more logistical person and operational and executing. think moving forward, you know, I'm thinking about what does it mean for me to be more of a creative producer, to be able to have more of my insights on projects and what it means to also.
Julia Relova (23:27.308)
let go of those ideas because in the end it's someone else's vision and someone else's story that I'm just trying to again be a cheerleader for support in whatever way I can.
Do find that there's been like a shift in sort of satisfaction levels versus like say maybe three, five years ago, you were more comfortable with the anonymity of executing and sort of operationality, like nearing a UPM side of producing versus now it's like maybe not as satisfying and you'd like a little bit more maybe authorship around whatever sort of creative output.
there is. Yeah, I think it comes in seasons. know, there's some seasons where I feel like executing is great. And I think there's also some artists that like, you know, their vision is something that I appreciate and want to hear. So that's why I do it. It's not because I have a perspective that I think can really add to it. And so I want to champion their work. But on the other side, there are some stories out there that I do feel like I have.
a unique perspective on and can add to. I want to be more intentional about saying that upfront when a project catches my eye and it's not just like, I love the story. It's, love the story and I feel like I can contribute to what you're saying. And I think in the future that'll be kind of like the two buckets that I have.
Yeah, because it's sort of the generosity back to that cheerleading up. You see someone who's either so idiosyncratic or has a perspective you may never have considered or thought of. it's like, I'm just happy to be here. I'm excited to be around someone who thinks this way and creates this way. And I'm willing to sort of exert time and energy and resources to help them manifest a vision and a dream. And then on the flip side, it's like the value of contribution and wanting your contributions to be witnessed or even balanced out.
Mishu Hilmy (25:14.85)
you know, kind of leading it or seeing a different artist who might have a project that you also have a take on or you want to elevate their take or harmonize their take rather than just let them run with it to like let your degree of contribution also rounded out. those both aces dealt with like other artists. So I'm curious like about yourself, like, you know, where you're at around what you feel or how you want your sort of creative visions to be, you know, experienced or witnessed.
I'm very type A. So I'm like, I always need a roadmap of where I'm going. So I actually very recently kind of in my head made the decision. And, know, don't hold me to this. This is just today how I'm feeling. But the idea that there are three stories that I've always sat with in myself that I've wanted to tell and that I've wanted to tell through film. And so I think there are three features that I have in mind that I want to tackle.
within the next five to 10 years, 20 years, who knows. But those three features are kind of the goals I have for myself as a writer, director, and producer. That's kind of what I want to do on these three specific projects. And I think too, maybe this roadmap and this definitive idea I have in my head has come from wanting a little bit more control over certain artistic endeavors as well.
In my head, I'm like, okay, these are three products that I feel confident that I can contribute these three roles very impactly and fully. And so I think that's kind of the direction I'm going.
When I hear control, it's like to me, like control is a strategy for like meeting that need of like maybe, you know, self-determination, autonomy, choice, expression, right? And when you're on different sort of projects or scales of projects, it's like the self-determination gets, you know, maybe not as satisfied or fulfilled. So that's that seems like a lovely sentiment around like, these are three things I'd like to or I believe that I can have my integrity and my expression attached to it and kind of made and the challenge of like creating that. Yeah.
Mishu Hilmy (27:21.71)
You mentioned the email around like the right direction for you. you know, you have this idea of a roadmap, but it seems like maybe is this a little bit of a later roadmap because or is this first feature, you know, step one to, you know, guiding you closer to that roadmap as someone who's, you know, autonomous or creating creating more things.
Yeah, I think I've realized that maybe this roadmap is like, these are three of the final destination, you know, it's it's a road that has many, it's a fork that I come back to, know, I re reroute myself, but I do see, you know, proof of concepts are important, like a cool idea to me. think they're important and getting people's attention. And so.
I think each of these features has a potential proof of concept that goes with it, that helps me also figure out where the vision's going, what direction I want to take the film in the bigger sense as well. So I think that's kind of what that looks like for me of using these features as like the goal.
and then allowing the rest to fall into place of like what makes sense to get to that goal, right? And maybe it's not a pre-pub concept, but like diving into writing something that's like a poem that will inspire something from it or whatever it is on that artist's journey.
I just think a lot about like, scale because technically we can express and create anything in any kind of medium we want. So it's like the fixation on, this needs to be a feature and this could be a feature is like a solid sort of strategy and goal. And at the same time, it's like, it might be coming obsessed with like, this can only be done this way versus like the master waste, nothing like if you fuck around with some poems or even a three minute documentary, like what's the world of that? like, how do you deal with like,
Mishu Hilmy (29:11.628)
the aspirational and also like maybe it's more on abundance but like dealing with the aspirational versus like I just want to make things like
Yeah, it's a great question. I feel like I've kind of gotten stuck again and the idea of like wanting to make things and getting stuck in the mindset that it has to be a film or it has to be a video as a filmmaker. think my head's always in that space and I'm like, I'm telling my collaborators like I want to buy a camera because I want to be making more things. Right. And like, I need this to make this. I need this to make this. And there's a project that's happening in the Chicago area called
the filmmakers mixtape and a lot of different friends I have are doing it and it's really inspiring to me because they don't make the excuses of I need a camera or I need a crew or I need someone to do this. They just kind of make it and they do one each month and it's crazy to me. And so I'm trying to channel that energy. I'm trying to talk to those people more to feel inspired by it.
But it is hard to do as somebody who likes to have a plan and likes to follow her road back.
Yeah, yeah, and it was kind of maybe guiding toward comparisons because I relate where it's like my judgment or my floating thought is like I write and I make things and I make images and Shorts and whatnot, but then the judge was like, well, why am I not doing this every month? Like what like why am I not out there doing it? I have an iPhone I can shoot I've shot iPhone movies But then it's like the insecurity like but I'm not there's other folks who are actively like getting a scrappy little group of three folks and making something fun and
Mishu Hilmy (30:49.326)
So it's like the insecurity of that's like how are you navigating at least like? Comparisons of well, I prefer a roadmap versus you're aware of something like a mixtape existing
Yeah, I think I'm leaning into the idea of seasons. think I mentioned it very quickly earlier and understanding that my seasonal calendar is very different from the person next to me or for me. I'm realizing that I do. That's why I love being in Chicago because there are actual seasons for me to follow and I follow that. the Chicago's seasons are my seasons and I'm trying to lean into that and remind myself that, you know,
Even though from my perspective, these people are doing things and doing things, they have their seasons too. And maybe their seasons add up in a different way where it's like hour by hour and those hours add up. And for me, it's month by month and that's fine. And, you know, it's definitely harder said than done, but I try to keep that in mind for myself. You know, my time for productivity and my time for that, maybe more unending energy will come, but maybe it's not right.
Yeah, I mean, yeah, I think I had Jamie on like a week ago. We talked maybe near the end around the seasonality and I relate to that too. Like it's like be of nature, be like nature. I think there's something like very colonial and capitalistic and industrialist to be like, I am alienating myself from nature. I can make all the time versus like, wait a minute, that's we are we are of nature. So it's okay to like harmonize with and create a system that is more, you know,
rooted and natural driven rather than like, I think more like ambitious and insecure driven, like I gotta just output, I gotta produce, I gotta make value for myself and others.
Julia Relova (32:31.84)
And I know you also have a day job, right? Yeah. And so balancing that idea of seasons with the day job and the constant like, this quarter, this quarter, these goals that we have, these KPIs and reminding myself that like, okay, that's corporate Julia and that's like day job Julia. And like, that doesn't need to seep into the rest of my life and telling myself that, Hey, seasonal Julia should be what.
you allow to seep into the corporate life. And if, you know, that comes with its own challenges, but that's, don't know if that's the same for you, but like the corporate corporate day job is like a blessing and a curse as an artist.
It helps me stay stable and take bigger creative risks versus I tried the lifestyle of like making $17,000 a year scrapping together from just like acting and performing and temping and that that was just like chaos Yeah, so I do think like it's it's stable for me and at the same time that's where it's like the comparisons of everything has its price and the price I pay for choosing Stability is like maybe a little bit less time and a little bit less energy luckily my my corporate day job doesn't
tax any creative bandwidth, so I don't feel exhausted creatively ever due to the day job. But I just try to remind myself like, everything has its price, you These people are maybe allowed to do, you know, weekly short films or scrap this together because they're underemployed or unemployed in the racking up debt or they're younger than me or they're they have a social network that's more, you know, prone to doing this. But I also don't see what they're doing 16, 24 hours a day.
and the angst and doubts and rage they may be dealing with.
Julia Relova (34:13.954)
And it's a reminder too, it's like, we'll never know. And it doesn't hurt to tell yourself a certain thing sometimes. not in like a negative way to anybody, but in the sense that like, you can't compare yourself. Like, you know, like in your head, you just have to know that, this person will probably have X, Y, Z, X, Y, Z too. And it's just different from my ABC.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's why I think like the spirit of cheerleading is probably the most, the strongest approach you can take, the most healing approach. just, I don't know if it was like five or eight years ago, maybe 10 years ago being like, it's there. No one's a competitor. They're all a potential future collaborator. And I just think that's like a much more joyous mindset than like they're taking something from me. It's like, guess what? Like Buster Keaton took everything, you know, Charlie Chaplin took it.
Cinema's 100 plus years old. Like they were never going to get to the glory days of a studio. The race has already been won many times over. So like there's nothing, there's no finish line to cross, you know.
It's not a race. It's yeah, it's a group effort. We're all building something together. And when we build it, it's expanding it. Not like we're not running. We're building and gaining strength to, you know, like that kind of vision.
like that visual for myself. But yeah, it's a constant reminder to you. But I agree with you. I for me personally, it takes a lot more energy to be negative than it does positive. And I'd much rather live in a in the mindset that like I can give and someone like they're going to give back to me eventually. It's really
Julia Relova (35:42.958)
I feel like it's even exhausting just thinking like, oh, like I'm giving them this so I'm, they're good. Like it's transactional. They owe me something later on, you know? So I totally agree with what you're saying about, you know, being a cheerleader feels it's almost like selfishly the easier way to go.
So I yeah, I agree and I think we're probably similar Maybe that's why we all like kind of our cohorts get along like I I think I mostly just like ghosted out of the filmmakers in my life who like it's just like a very maybe an Ungenerous or less positive kind of viewpoint and I'm like, I just can't I just can't be around this. love going to see movies I love seeing movies that aren't good, but I'll like when I walk away I'm excited because I learned something from it and I feel inspired versus like it just like talking shit about whatever we see
Yes, I totally agree. And it goes back to like, I just love that art gives conversation and it fuels conversation. It's exciting to have something to talk about, whether it's something you learned or something that you wish you could have contributed to, you know, it's a fun exercise. Yeah.
Yeah, I went to screen time last weekend or whatever and I just was like, great. Like, I don't know, it's nine, 10 short films from Chicago filmmakers, all of them, you know, really strong, solid and phenomenal. I'm sitting there like feeling inspired and envious, which is like a great feeling for me to go, wow, yeah, these are people within our network who are, you know, expressing things I would never want to express or don't care to express, but I'm still inspired by the sheer virtue of them like doing it.
Yeah, and I love that part of it too. And that as a filmmaker, when you watch something, it's building your network or potential network in your community. And when I watch things, I'm always taking note because not just for myself, but like other people who knowing other filmmakers, it's so much fun to be like, I saw this film and I know you're visually aiming for something similar. Like talk to these people about how they did it. You know, I love that part about, especially being in.
Julia Relova (37:40.46)
the Chicago films, you know, I think there's a lot of collaboration and discussion and connection. Like you actually run into these other people, right? Like you, you'll, you'll talk about someone one day and a week later at an event, you'll be like, my God, I just heard about your song. I'm so excited to meet you, you know.
I remember maybe it's probably almost 10 years ago reading Adam Grant's book, Give and Take. And I don't remember if we've talked about it previously, but the general thesis is like, you these three arbitrary identities that live on a spectrum givers, takers and matchers in the middle. And like most people default to matching. And I think it's maybe culturally what folks have grown up with, you know, share the way, you know, balance the scales, clear your debts. So most people are like, you bought lunch this time. All right, let me Venmo you or let's let I'll do it next time. So most people,
have the spirit of matching. think it's easy to clock people who are in the spirit of taking where it's just like the voracious appetite of like, hey, can you jump on a call with me? Hey, here's my project. Here, like just email you just like talk to you about their project on ending. And they're like taking your time, your energy. Well, givers is like the opposite where it's like, you know, giving time, giving energy. And there's a risk at the giving side of like, you know, losing boundaries. But overall, at the risk level, at least Adam Grant's argument was givers will have
long-term more success because of that relationship building and that network that's being built. And I think maybe that's why I like the art industry or the showbiz industry, because I am interested in the folks around it and I don't necessarily want to be in a fear-driven industry like most other sort of day jobs.
Yeah, living in a fear-driven world, perspective, mindset is also draining. It's like, I don't know how people do it. But I think that's kind of like you were saying earlier too, like what's nice is the idea of just like being able to take big risks with some things that we do have stability in our lives. Like I feel like that stability has really helped me drop fear. And that's kind of...
Julia Relova (39:43.126)
I know a privilege and so I acknowledge that a lot.
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And then I guess I'm curious around validation, right? So affirmation, validation, what are your thoughts currently or your relationship with this? I think validation is insidious, but I want to hear what are your thoughts around your relationship to approbation or validation?
Yeah, this is definitely a point that I wanted to discuss with you because I think I struggle with it. Like the idea of needing validation, the idea of wanting to make all the lists and get the grants and be told that your work is great. Like it's something that I feel like sometimes I need again, maybe as an extrovert, like that external validation, that confirmation from someone else that what I'm doing is worth doing. But I love to hear how you take
Take the validation out. Yeah.
Yeah, maybe it's like a sort of a thought experiment, a privileged thought experiment. like, objectively, yes, like validation is it's the belief that that'll meet your need for security and stability, right? Like the idea of being on a bunch of 30 under 30s, you know, winning awards at Sundance, like objectively, they're, you know, gatekeepers and tastemakers can see that and give you more opportunities. So like, there are external gains that increase the probability of a six, maybe a sustainable or potentially stable career. I think that's the
Mishu Hilmy (41:07.406)
the belief and the illusion and it's probably somewhat true. So I'm not like naive in that like validation can create monetary career gains and potentially stability. But I think the desire for validation will just like keep filling the pool of like fear, more fear. need like, I need more. Great, I got an award at Sundance. Now I need to get like a distribution deal with A24. Great, I sold an A24 movie. I need to.
you know, get hired by Marvel or Disney. So I just think there's like a potential risk of like seeking it out creates or reinforces a rat race mentality. Even though the spirit might be like, this could create security, but I think it might create emotional insecurity if you're just really focused on others and outsiders approve of the things I do and make. And I think that's like a life of suffering.
Yeah. And that reminds me to the idea of security and it goes back to the scarcity mindset. I feel like, I've just finished the artist way and it was a great exercise, but you know, the biggest takeaway I got there was, know, the idea of abundance and the idea of that as long as you're doing what you believe is right for your work and your artistry that the opportunity will come.
Yeah, yeah
Julia Relova (42:29.602)
that will help you feel more stable and secure. And so I try to think about that a lot too. It's that abundance mindset. They're not joking. Like it really makes a difference. Like it changes your brain chemistry a little. And yeah, that idea that, you know, validation also increases fear is really interesting, you know, like just talking now about how, how stable jobs help us feel a little bit more open to risk taking. It's, just all goes back. They all relate, you know.
Yeah. Yeah. So I think it's like, just like the practice and this is just like my perspective that I feel most comfortable with it, with it, like the abundance also must be like within and the abundance must be like from self-defining enough. Cause I think if all the, if you don't take time like defining what's enough, then you're, I think you're just going to be at risk of like the default of like more, more, more, more, more money, more, you know, bigger budgets, more laurels, more awards. And I think, you know,
It's like the hedonistic treadmill, like we'll eventually just get used to it and it won't be satisfying rather than like, love I love the process. I love the experience. And if I just focus on like this moment, like I have no plans for this podcast. There's no like I have no growth. I have no growth strategy. I have no vision for it. It's just an excuse of like I want to talk to people I like and I care about and I'm interested in. And the enoughness for me is I'll try and do one year, 50 episodes or 100 episodes and then check back in. Is this still
bring joy in my life. don't care if it gets written up about or if there's a thousand listeners. Like it's doesn't matter because I try. think the antidote for me, a validation is like, was I present in the thing doing the thing versus like, I hope someone likes it.
Yeah, it goes back to redefining success, What does success mean to someone? Your success is different from mine. Mine is different from Disney's or 824's. Understanding on that personal level that for me, I don't want my success to be defined by an outcome. I agree with you. I want my success to be defined by...
Julia Relova (44:34.978)
how I felt and how I treated others on that journey to an outcome. And so, yeah.
I think the validation is like a dangerous sweet cherry on top. So it's like, how do you return to that mindfulness of like, am I behaving out of fear? Like I got to write my script this way or make my deck this way because maybe it'll sway this gatekeeper. and then versus like returning, not that they're like either, or you can do both. You can be intentional and see quality, but I'm just thinking like, you know, how do you manage the behavior of am I doing this? What is my intention while I'm doing this right?
Yeah, yeah, and I've been asking myself that question in my like creative journey to you and that's kind of I think why I I made those three films that I have in my head the outcome that I want from a from this journey because they were there three films that are centered around my values right there reflections of my identity and and what I would want the world to see and Know about me. And so right. I think that's something I'm thinking about
Yeah, yeah, so it's like the the expression like they're the value of like are you feeling connected or excited about the potential like expressing something and maybe strangers or close loved ones getting a chance to see that expression and witness
Yeah, I think it's you know, it goes both ways, know There's some things that I'm saying in the work that I'm doing that I know maybe close loved ones don't always agree with and You know in the spirit of pride, you know Bisexual Filipina woman and I'm very proud of it and there are some people in my life who aren't proud to see me and that in this new light that I've had right and so it's not something I've been
Julia Relova (46:19.724)
balancing with myself too as like, you know, this is the truth I want to tell this is the expression. This is what I want to express and be seen, but it's not always going to be well taken in. I think that's also something I've been experiencing my life in a way that I'm also is part of my journey. It's like that's happening in my personal life. And now someone I think I was at a talk yesterday with Lily Wachowski and she was saying, you know, we make art to fill the holes in our heart, you know, and that's kind of.
what I think I'm blocking with these products that I have in mind right now.
It's all like we're all just living with the void, right? Like, and we're all like approaching the void in any given way. So I don't think there's any right or wrong way. There's ways that might be more violent, you know, like abuse and drug addiction might be a more violent way to fill the void, but it's still like passing time. And I think what's challenging is the idea of an audience. And when it comes to like validation, because it's like, we're trying to do an expressive medium.
that it can exist in and of itself in your mind or know, a script that no one ever sees that you just get to read through and that's a way of delighting. But I think I'm maybe still struggling to navigate like why does there need to be an audience if I could say, well, there shouldn't be any validation. I think an audience can exist without wanting to be validated by that audience. But then the question is like, is an audience and why is an audience a necessary tool to expression or a creative medium?
Yeah, it's a great question. And I think especially like in this day and age, as mentioned before, like where there's so many people who can be in your audience because of technology and the internet. And so it's more important than ever. I feel like to go back to that abundance within, right. And remind yourself that that's, that's important too. And even if it's impossible for some folks to remove validation from something they need and want, maybe the more important thing is to remember that.
Julia Relova (48:11.234)
the abundance you have within is something that you can have too.
Right. Yeah. I think what I do think about like technology and how inconceivable it is, right. You can make a two minute piece and put it on Tik Tok or Instagram and like go viral and like the brain breaking thing of like, oh wow, a million people acknowledge this, like this 12,000 people commented on it. And then it's like, all right, onto my day.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. So like when it comes to like that element, I think for me, at least I just think really fundamentally of like, is this what is a story and what is passing time? And that maybe makes it easier for myself of like, I'm at a campfire and I'm sitting across, you know, 10 people, one person, or it's just me alone in the woods. But there's something maybe
more around generosity to this audience is curious or maybe they're consenting to be here and they just want to pass time with me and that's I think is the abundance and the gift of like I don't need them to approve the story I can trust them to walk away from the campfire I can trust them to like yell at me during and after like as they want to do but it's maybe in service of like just being together and passing time rather than needing them to go like great story kid that was that was the best campfire I ever
Julia Relova (49:23.822)
Yeah, and just having that moment to, again, be in conversation with someone. Even though an audience member might not be like vocally reacting, they're having a conversation in their mind with the work that you're doing. I think that's important. And I also believe that the work finds the people.
I think niches are a big thing and people will walk away if they don't want to watch it anymore, but there's going to be that group of people who sits and listens and whether they leave a huge fan or if they leave with questions, it goes back to hopefully that audience member just heard you and understood you a little bit. I think the goal is maybe that too, remembering that everyone's going to understand you, but hopefully someone does.
Is that still too much of an expectation? that still right? Like this is me being maybe a validation purist, but it's like, is that necessary? Like the, we'll never know their thought. We'll never know if they understand it. We'll never know if they like interpret it correctly. You know, they might go away and be like, shit, I should force drugs down my family's face, you know, put acid in their drinks. So their minds open and they heal, you know, maybe that's their walk away. So yeah, it's mostly like a thought experiment of like, it's out of, it's out of your control. So like what, what
Like what difference does it make if they understand it? Which is weird because it's like well we're sharing space and time we're like sitting across from the campfire or we're in an auditorium watching a movie together. Is it deranged to be like that's not my problem?
Yeah, no, I mean it's a question. I feel like people are always asking themselves, know, it's like what is the responsibility of the creator to its audience, you know, right and like I mean, I think the truth is like you said like we can hope and aspire to have these outcomes but in the end it's like in the hands of other people and like their own thoughts and their own experiences fill the context. So it's not a control.
Mishu Hilmy (51:19.316)
How have you been relating to least like actively taking risks for yourself, whether it's sort of creatively or in your writing or in your producing, like how mindful of you are you of like risk taking?
man, I'll be honest, I'm living right now in a very safe. I think I'm not in my risk taking box right now. I think I started the year in a very risk taking mood and I was ready to just put whatever I had on paper and not look back. But right now I'm in a box where like part of my going to these 50 pages I have already written instead of.
continuing forward and continuing to take risks with what I want to continue to say, I'm looking back and I'm like, okay, I already built this little box for myself. Like, let me go back into the box and like go from there. And I think so part of my goal, you know, the rest of this month is to take more risks and to enable myself to take more risks and maybe.
This week I've taken a lot of time to take rest and to listen to how my body's feeling, listen to the restless thoughts in my mind so that I can have a foundation to quiet those things or find peace with those things and run with that kind of risk taking and bold ideas that have been sitting in my mind ready to kind of break through.
Never want the imposition to be like risk taking is inherently better. I don't think it is. just think it's the story. Like your life is your story. And like, it just seems like there's a little bit more variety of how you pass it. If you're willing to like seek status changes or value changes. And I think the easiest way to do a value change is probably through something that's a little bit vulnerable or uncomfortable or risky, but it doesn't inherently make it like, you don't have to do anything. It's just something I'm always curious about. Like how intentional are we?
Mishu Hilmy (53:09.834)
And it comes to seasonality, right? It's like right now it's like, I'm resting versus I'm willing to go out into the wilderness and be away from my tribe to discover something about myself.
Yeah, but I think the timing of your question is perfect because I am in that place where I'm like I'm gearing up for this this Big sprint because I have had this goal to have by the end of the June like this first draft done And so, know, there's no more excuses in my head like I'm like it's time. It's time to take that risk I like what you said to though that you know, like we don't ever have to do these things. It's just
Sometimes it helps in moving forward. Sometimes there isn't a safe way forward. So you have to take the risk and you just kind of have to make that jump.
How are you staying motivated or connected with the entertainment industry or art making given how uncertain and volatile the world of it can
Yeah, I think I remind myself that's a reason why I have always done art, whether it was theater or film. I've done it for my community and I've done it because that's where I found like-minded people who are excited and energized by the same things. And so even though it's uncertain, it's still here now and the people that I love and I want to continue to work with will continue to be here. And so I think that's what
Julia Relova (54:31.726)
keeps me going is that, you know, these are my people, this is my tribe and I don't want to lose them and I don't want to lose what brings us together. So I'm going to keep pushing for it.
Great. Well, Julia, yeah, thank you so much for sharing an hour and getting to talk.
Yeah, it was so much fun. Thank you for having me. I've been inspired by many of the conversations before, so was an honor to be here.
Mishu Hilmy (55:01.038)
Before sending you off with a little creative prompt, I just wanted to say thank you for listening to Mischief and Mastery. If you enjoyed the show, please rate it and leave a review on iTunes or wherever you listen to podcasts. Your support does mean a lot. Until next time, keep taking care of yourself, your lightness, curiosity, and sense of play. And now for a little Mischief motivation. Let's get into a prompt. This one is inspired by what we talked about around...
motivation and this is a little social consequence post. Text a trusted friend what you're working on today and promise to send them a screenshot of your progress or a sentence by like nine o'clock. So shoot them a message earlier in the day, say, hey, I'm working on this and that they'll, you'll follow up by the evening and then show them that evidence. You know, sometimes social pressures do help and if it gets you to writing or creating, give it a shot. So yeah.
try reaching out to a friend that you're gonna work on something and then give them a status update later in the day. See if that works for you and if it doesn't, yeah, keep working on intrinsic motivation versus social pressures. All right, I'm rambling. Have a great rest of your day. I will see you next time.