How to Split a Toaster: A Divorce Podcast About Saving Your Relationships

Gabrielle Hartley is a nationally-recognized divorce attorney, online mediator and divorce strategy coach with a strong focus on conflict resolution. She is the author of “Better Apart: The Radically Positive Way to Separate” and she joins us today to share how she brings mindfulness to the divorce process.

Show Notes

Gabrielle Hartley is a nationally-recognized divorce attorney, online mediator and divorce strategy coach with a strong focus on conflict resolution. She is the author of Better Apart: The Radically Positive Way to Separate and she joins us today to share how she brings mindfulness to the divorce process.

No, Gabrielle doesn't lead her clients through a yoga practice in the mediation process. But she does lead us through some specific exercises focusing on breathing and returning to our bodies in a way that can help remain positive and attentive under stress. Her approach is to help her clients to remember that patience, respect, clarity, and peace are all part of an everyday practice, integrating new behaviors in our lives to help us accomplish our greatest challenges.

Creators and Guests

Host

Pete Wright

Podcaster and co-host, Pete Wright brings years of marriage and a spirit of curiosity to the divorce process. He's spent the last two decades interviewing experts and thinkers in emotional healing and brings that with him to the law, divorce, and saving relationships in the process.

Host

Seth R. Nelson

Seth Nelson is the founding attorney and managing partner at NLG Divorce & Family Law. He is a Tampa-based family lawyer known for devising creative solutions to difficult problems.

Producer

Andy Nelson

Hailing from nearly 25 years in the world of film, television, and commercial production, Andy has always had a passion for storytelling, no matter the size of the package.

What is How to Split a Toaster: A Divorce Podcast About Saving Your Relationships?

Seth Nelson is a Tampa based family lawyer known for devising creative solutions to difficult problems. In How to Split a Toaster, Nelson and co-host Pete Wright take on the challenge of divorce with a central objective — saving your most important relationships with your family, your former spouse, and yourself.

Pete Wright:
Welcome to How to Split a Toaster, a divorce podcast about saving your relationships, from True Story FM. Today, I'd like you all to sit quietly and join me in downward toaster position.
Seth Nelson:
Welcome to the show, everyone. I'm Seth Nelson. And as always, I'm here with my good friend, Pete Wright. Our guest today is Gabrielle Hartley. Gabrielle is a national recognized divorce attorney, online mediator and divorce strategy coach, with a strong focus on conflict resolution.
Seth Nelson:
She's the author of Better Apart: The Radically Positive Way to Separate. She joins us today to share how she brings mindfulness to the divorce process. Get ready to release, have renewal, and recalibration. Welcome to the toaster.
Gabrielle Hartley:
Thank you. It's very nice to be here.
Seth Nelson:
She says that now, Pete, but she just got here.
Pete Wright:
I know, right? She has no idea. This is going to be great though, because I do think this is important. Because it's something that we don't talk about very often. And it's this whole idea of mindfulness in the divorce process. The first thing I get on your ... I start reading all your goodies on your website.
Pete Wright:
The first thing is like, let's start talking about introducing yoga and breathing and mindful. I'm reading the book and it's like, this is all about bringing exercises to a cold process. And so, so much of this I want to hear from you is, how do you, and why do you, why is it important to re humanize the law for people in the divorce process?
Gabrielle Hartley:
So I want to start with the first comment you made, that this is a cold process. My experience of the divorce process is actually not at all a cold process. It's really a reconfiguration of a family. And that's always how I have approached it. When I was nine and my brother was six, my parents divorced and they held themselves out to be just the beacon of divorced couples.
Gabrielle Hartley:
They had shared custody when nobody back when I was a kid, had shared custody. My dad was very involved with us and we were looked at as the weirdo family. And when I got to law school, the last class I was ever going to take was family law, because I was so done with the topic. I had a lot of opinions about it. I had a lot of experience.
Seth Nelson:
Wait a minute. A Brooklyn lawyer has opinions about things? Slow down. Stop, the bus is here.
Gabrielle Hartley:
So I took family law pass fail. I was never going to be a family lawyer. I wound up within a couple of years, clerking for a New York state supreme court judge who heard only family divorce, called matrimonial matters. And I was about 29 or 30 years old when I started to work with him. And I quickly saw, first of all, how lucky I was I learned that the divorce process is really horrific for most people.
Gabrielle Hartley:
And I knew firsthand as someone who had grown up with parents who never went to court, that it didn't have to be that way. And so the secretary for the judge used to make fun of me and say, "You're doing downward dogs in the backroom and you're going to [inaudible 00:03:39] on Staten Island and in Brooklyn in the early 2000s." Nobody is doing downward dog yet. That's a 2018 kind of thing.
Gabrielle Hartley:
So I know I was not doing downward dog, but I was infusing some humor and asking people to take a step back and doing a lot of reminders about what we're really doing here. This is a recalibration of your family. And that's all it is actually. The drama, for some of the lawyers, that's the fun part. So let's be honest, the rabbit holes that exist in every single conversation as I now exclusively mediate.
Gabrielle Hartley:
And I hear people telling their perspective of the divorce, my lawyer brain is hearing, "Oh, argument? $10,000, $20,000, $30,000." Because there are so many things that we can spin out of control. And sometimes I ask people if they want me to help them to reframe. And that's where to answer your question, how did mindfulness get involved with that? When our thinking brain is flooded by emotion, there is no space for any logic or any reflection or any-
Seth Nelson:
Problem solving. There's no space for problem solving.
Gabrielle Hartley:
Perspectives.
Seth Nelson:
And that's what you're trying to do.
Gabrielle Hartley:
That's right.
Seth Nelson:
If you're going to recalibrate, you're solving a problem that we got to fix this.
Gabrielle Hartley:
That's exactly right.
Seth Nelson:
And if you're going through the emotional aspect of that, then you've got to set that aside. And we've had other guests say, "We just set our ego aside." That's another way to say emotion. And to figure out what are the problems?
Seth Nelson:
Where do we agree? Where do we disagree? And how do we get through this process? But we are interested in how we end up doing downward dog, because I know Pete's got some yoga questions coming. I can just feel it.
Pete Wright:
Bring me solid warrior too, on a Thursday afternoon, and I'm in heaven.
Seth Nelson:
Talk about this release, renewal, recalibration. Take us through the little outline there.
Gabrielle Hartley:
Okay. So, first of all, just to satisfy Pete's curiosity about the yoga positions, we don't actually do yoga in my mediation studio.
Pete Wright:
You have just shattered my worldview of you. And I regret that.
Gabrielle Hartley:
We do talk about the value of breathing. We do talk about the value of slowing down. We talk about the transferring from a positional base to an interest base approach. Like, what do we need? What's our why behind what we want? So Seth, to answer your question, in order to get to an agreement or resolution, we need to have a release, which is where the parties actually are feeling a little bit of a reprieve from the intense mental loop that's circling in their mind, that's fueling the fire.
Gabrielle Hartley:
So from within the context of a mediation, there's a lot of listening and a lot of validating, and a lot of probing. How do you think this is going to make you feel? It's not therapy, but it is a probing into the why. Now, some people, when I tell them, let's think about the why instead of the what, some people can just go there. So I don't need to spend a session getting it out of them. But once we get to the why, and once we get to the release, then we can recalibrate.
Gabrielle Hartley:
So recalibration is once there's the space in our minds to feel open to different perspectives, that's where the creativity comes in. And I imagine Seth, as a family lawyer, you're well aware of how much creativity it takes to satisfy both sides who have very different narratives, right?
Seth Nelson:
Oh, well, I think what you're saying is directly on point is that when you talk about what is your underlying interest, as opposed to your position, and we've discussed this a little bit before, Pete, on other shows, where we're talking about your why, why do you want to keep the house, well, because it's good for the kids. It's a good school district.
Seth Nelson:
I think we can afford it, even if someone else moves out. There's all these other things that go along. But then you get to that, what you're calling recalibration, which I love that term, to get creative in coming up with a solution to a problem, because both parties have the same problems, though they look at them very different ways. They're splitting their finances.
Seth Nelson:
They're dividing up where the children are going to spend their time. Now, people immediately think, "Well, that other side, he's never been involved in the kids. Why is this a problem now?" Well, because it's a problem. So let's deal with it. So I agree with you that once you get to the underlying interests, that is a way to be creative to then solve that problem in recalibration. That makes absolute sense to me.
Gabrielle Hartley:
So if you look at the problem, like you're saying, the problem is the what we're fighting about. But why we're fighting about it can be actually really different. The guy wants custody. This is really being sexist, gendered, so I apologize already, but the guy wants custody and the woman wants to have primary custody.
Gabrielle Hartley:
And the problem is who's going to have the kids? And why the guy wants custody is because he's afraid that he might be boxed out if he doesn't have shared custody. And the woman, the mom might feel like, well, you were never there before. You never really pulled your weight. You don't even know who the kids' teachers are. How could you possibly have shared custody?
Gabrielle Hartley:
Many times the dad doesn't really care about having exactly 50-50 parenting. They want to be involved. Now, sometimes they do care and sometimes things have to go to trial. But sometimes there are small shifts that we can make in the way we're looking at things, small ways to recalibrate the agreement. So instead of saying 50-50, we focus more on the schedule rather than the label.
Seth Nelson:
Right. And along with that, I think that's absolutely correct where I believe that nobody, when they have children, look at a calendar and say, how much time am I going to spend with this child over the next 18 years?
Gabrielle Hartley:
Well, they look at it when they know that it has to do with child support. That's the problem.
Seth Nelson:
Well, when you get divorced, you look at it because lawyers and judges make you look at it that way.
Gabrielle Hartley:
Right.
Seth Nelson:
But when we say, why do you want time and it's because you want to have enough time in your child's life, to have a positive relationship where your child comes to you in good times and bad, when they're five, 15, and 25, and 35, and 45 if you're playing the long game, and not just the short 18-year period if your kids are 10 and 12, you're arguing over six to eight years, if you're looking at the longterm, if you can not create that relationship, as you say, by looking at the calendar where it might be 60-40 and you're the guy with the 40%, that extra 10% of time is not going to help you.
Seth Nelson:
If you can't get it done in 40%, what's the extra 10 going to do? So I think that's right. You look at a calendar and not get focused on these percentages.
Gabrielle Hartley:
Exactly.
Pete Wright:
I'm want to take just a quick step back. When you were talking about all these, asking the question, why, why, why, why, how often do you run into the situation where people come to you and they think, "Okay, we want to get a divorce, why do you want to get a divorce, why are you feeling these ways," that interrogative kind of introspective interrogation, did they come back and say, "Oh, I don't know. Maybe divorce isn't the outcome"?
Gabrielle Hartley:
So I am not a discernment therapist. I'm no kind of therapist, but should I stay or should I go is outside of my wheelhouse. Only if people come in and they say a lot of wistful things. And that does happen. And then I say, "Are you sure you want a divorce? Have you done all you can do?"
Gabrielle Hartley:
I heard a statistic that only about 18% of couples who seek divorce, have ever gone to couples' counseling. And I find that alarming as a divorce attorney and as someone who has spent much of ... I've spent much of my marriage in a couples' counseling. There I go. Don't ask me any followup questions.
Seth Nelson:
All right. Exactly. Just crack that door open for us, Pete.
Gabrielle Hartley:
I'm sorry. I'm sorry.
Seth Nelson:
I know.
Gabrielle Hartley:
Because people have different personalities. And sometimes, people need assistance in communicating better, because you don't necessarily marry the person who you communicate the best with.
Seth Nelson:
That's the guy you're having the affair with. That communication is good.
Gabrielle Hartley:
That's exactly right. Exactly.
Seth Nelson:
But I will tell you, when I went through my divorce, I sought counseling to help me get through it. And then I would have what I would call check-ins maybe every six months, maybe once a year.
Seth Nelson:
And I asked my therapist at the time, I'm like, "So, do you worry about me in a professional sense? Do I need to be having these check-ins?" She's like, "No, but I only worry about the people that aren't in counseling." The people that are here doing work, we're good.
Gabrielle Hartley:
Exactly. Exactly.
Pete Wright:
I was just thinking about that. At what point does that become a deciding indicator for somebody who's going to get divorced, when they decide to go to counseling? Is it after we've already decided our marriage is failing and we just need help separating? Or is it the people who are doing it, like protecting their marriage first?
Gabrielle Hartley:
So when you're already ready to throw in the towel, going to some counseling can still be helpful because there's a much greater likelihood that you're going to tone down that emotional flood, be able to be more mindful in the moment, make better decisions, and keep your divorce at the settlement table and out of court.
Gabrielle Hartley:
So really, even if counseling isn't going to save your marriage, it can still save your un-marriage, your dissolution. And if you have kids, it can open a new way of communicating to go forward, even if you couldn't quite work it out within the context of your marriage.
Seth Nelson:
And there are some cases where people really ask the spouse, "I want to work on our marriage. I don't think we're where we need to be. I feel like we're not connected. I want to go to counseling to get reconnected." And the other might say no, because they think it's the check the box before you get divorced. So by not going, we're not checking the box to move to the next step.
Seth Nelson:
Now, there's no requirement. As you said, there's a statistic out there that says only 18% of people that get divorced actually went to counseling. But then when push comes to shove and divorce is on the table, and then they finally say, "Okay, I'll go to counseling," if that's what it takes to wake them up, that relationship, they might stay walking this path on earth together and not go their separate ways.
Seth Nelson:
So when you're going through this process and they have the release, you're being creative with recalibration, we never got to renewal and I'm such a check-the-box-list guy, I got to get to renewal because I want to understand that concept, and what do you mean by that?
Gabrielle Hartley:
So renewal is the best part. Renewal is what we're looking for. It's when we're stepping away from the blame game, we're getting into active visualization. It's where the magic happens. We stop with the retroactive looking at things and we start to be proactive in how we're looking at things. No pot of gold at the end of the rainbow in that direction, let's turn it around. So renewal is only available after you've had that cathartic emotional release.
Gabrielle Hartley:
Again, that could happen wherever. It could be at home with your friends, by yourself, in the deep dark of the night. It could happen at the mediation table, if you have a mediator who's very actively engaged and saying, "So it sounds to me like it feels to you like your whole life was a lie," after she disclosed that the husband's been cheating on her for the last 20 years.
Gabrielle Hartley:
And then if you're the mediator, you have to quickly say to the husband, "Before she says that, I'm not saying this is true or weighing on the validity of this." You have to just basically make sure that if you are mediating, that everybody feels like their position is being heard. But by reflecting back and by validating that deep hurt for the person who often won't budge, somehow that releases something in their minds and makes them more open.
Seth Nelson:
And then you start looking forward? Then you start solving the problems and you can move on?
Gabrielle Hartley:
Exactly.
Pete Wright:
So it feels like so much of this, you're rebuilding character for people in this process, character that has been broken from maybe you're dealing with them when they were ... This is not an adult person sitting in the room with you. This is a nine-year-old kid who's broken inside, trying to figure out how to come to the table when they don't want to.
Seth Nelson:
And Pete, it can feel like that for people going through a divorce. It can feel like you're alone and no one else is going through what you're going through. And then they call me and I say, "I assure you, you're not alone because I can't even get up in front of the judge for six months, because there are so many other people going through what you're going through." "Oh, but my divorce is different. My husband is X."
Gabrielle Hartley:
Yeah. Oh, my goodness.
Seth Nelson:
We'll get calls, "How are you good at dealing with narcissists?" And I'm like, "Every day, I deal with narcissists," or, "Every day, I deal with a client whose perception is that their husband is a narcissist." So those are-
Pete Wright:
Doesn't that make them the narcissist?
Gabrielle Hartley:
Well, I know. Who is the gas lighter.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah. Right.
Gabrielle Hartley:
Right?
Pete Wright:
If you look around the room and you can't figure out who the narcissist is.
Seth Nelson:
Exactly.
Gabrielle Hartley:
Meaning, you know everyone going through ... The word narcissist is thrown around so much. There's the malignant narcissist, there's the covert narcissist. I think the label is helpful in as much as it explains a set of traits or personality quirks that are coming up through the divorce.
Gabrielle Hartley:
But I do think it's thrown around pretty fast and loose. And you just have to understand as a divorce practitioner, that people are doing the best they can. And they basically feel like crap when they're going through the divorce.
Gabrielle Hartley:
To your point, Seth and Pete, I think when people are going through a divorce, they often do feel like nine-year-olds scraping to just live and to understand how they're going to get through this, because it's one of the most difficult things that any of us can experience.
Seth Nelson:
Well, and I think to that point specifically, who you are going through the divorce process, my hunch is it's not who you are day to day.
Gabrielle Hartley:
Exactly. I said to them ... I'm going to get this. I don't know if I'm going to get this the right way around. I have a good friend who is an OB. And I said, "You see terrible people during the best time sometimes, because they're so happy, they have a baby." Even if they're not the nicest people, I see wonderful people during terrible times.
Seth Nelson:
Right.
Gabrielle Hartley:
So, how often does a client go off on you and then call and apologize? Because they're just upset and so you're like-
Seth Nelson:
That's what they say about the criminal law attorneys is that they see really bad people on really good behavior.
Gabrielle Hartley:
Oh, that's just-
Seth Nelson:
Because when you're sitting in court and you're the criminal, you're sitting at the defense table and you're the alleged criminal, you're going to be on your best behavior.
Gabrielle Hartley:
Exactly.
Seth Nelson:
When you're in family law court, you see really good people act at their worst behavior, right?
Gabrielle Hartley:
That's right. That's right. A lot of wrangling. So I think that it's never boring working with people getting divorced. A lot of people say, "How can you do it? Isn't it depressing?" And I'm like, "I didn't decide that they're getting divorced." That's outside my wheelhouse, like I said before.
Gabrielle Hartley:
I'm helping them extricate their financial entanglements and manage their children. And the rest of it is really up to them. I tell them about the Better Apart process. I do give them some breathing exercises. I do hand them each a book and encourage them to read it, because there's lots of writing exercises and yoga poses that are helpful to get through.
Seth Nelson:
So Pete has trouble breathing. Can we take Pete through a breathing exercise?
Gabrielle Hartley:
Sure, I'd love to take you through a breathing exercise, Pete.
Seth Nelson:
Let's do it.
Gabrielle Hartley:
Let's all do this together. So this is what we're going to do.
Pete Wright:
All right. All right.
Gabrielle Hartley:
We're all going to close our eyes and we're actually going to do a box breath, which is a little harder than just regular breathing. We're going to breathe in for five. We're going to hold it for five. This is advanced.
Gabrielle Hartley:
You really have to only do it for three. In for five, hold for five, out for five. Hold for five at the bottom. We're going to do it three times, then I'll count. So I'm going to do it. Ready?
Pete Wright:
Okay.
Gabrielle Hartley:
Close your eyes. Here we go. Hold. Breathe out through your nose. Hold at the bottom. Breathe in. Hold. Through your nose, out again. Hold at the bottom. One more time, in through your nose. Hold.
Gabrielle Hartley:
And now, slowly release as long as you can through your nose. Now, slowly open your eyes. I see, Pete, you're cheating. Your eyes were sort of open already, but that's okay. It's hard for people to close their eyes.
Pete Wright:
All right. To be fair, your timer was on video. So I had to watch your fingers.
Gabrielle Hartley:
I'm not [inaudible 00:22:32].
Seth Nelson:
We've never been that quiet before on the show. That was good.
Pete Wright:
That is true. Yeah, shut me right up. That was great. That's a great practice and I'm a little lightheaded.
Seth Nelson:
What does that do for people? What should have we felt going through that?
Gabrielle Hartley:
Before I tell you what you should have felt, why don't you guys tell me what you did feel? I heard lightheaded.
Pete Wright:
Oh, well, that was me being funny. Mostly, I find it a centering practice. Even though I was watching you, I do find eventually, there's a sort of experience of a curtain coming down.
Pete Wright:
And there's silence. I just feel a sense of silence, as if there's a huge, noisy party going on outside and I was just able to close the window. And there's a renewed ability to focus and think clearly and relax.
Gabrielle Hartley:
And what about you?
Seth Nelson:
Oh, it's similar. I'll probably describe it differently is I'm very then inward thinking. So I have less distractions. I'm not focused on whatever might be buzzing around me, or in my head even, if you just focus on that one thing, on your breath. And that's a lot of what meditation is, it's just focusing your breath.
Gabrielle Hartley:
Right.
Seth Nelson:
And when you're sitting there trying to meditate and you're like, "Oh, my lower back hurts," instead of being like, "Oh, I'm not doing it right, I'm thinking about my lower back," it's like, I feel my lower back. I'm going to let that go back to breathing. And that just gives you this renewed sense of being able to accomplish things, even if it's just a few minutes.
Seth Nelson:
I have a friend, would drive his three children to school every morning, and it was a nightmare in the car. The one kid is in the middle seat, they're all arguing. This hurts. What? That? I forgot this. And he started teaching them meditation on the way to school, to keep things calm in the car.
Seth Nelson:
And it has just totally, really become a focus point of their life as a family and individually. And he says, he'll take a break in the afternoon and meditate for five or 10 minutes in the office and it makes the rest of the afternoon just that much better. So I think this breathing is a good concept that is easy to start to practice.
Gabrielle Hartley:
I love that. I have three kids who are equally difficult in the car, and my remedy was I would blast Hamilton, which they'd all start singing. And that would stop them from fighting.
Seth Nelson:
Oh, yeah.
Gabrielle Hartley:
But to circle back to how this could help in a divorce is you give this tool to your clients, or if you yourself are listening to this podcast and you're getting divorced, try to integrate this into your life three times a day, morning, the middle of the day, and the evening, just for like a minute. Five minutes is optimal, but if you just do the five rounds, just so you have the memory of what it feels like to be calm and centered and present.
Gabrielle Hartley:
And then when you're at the mediation table, when you're in the courtroom, when you're feeling antagonized by your ex, out in normal life, you don't need to make a show it and breathe loudly, or close your eyes. But you can just slowly sip in some breath, hold it, let it out. Again, optimally. You're going to do it really strong and there's going to be a noise, like an ocean. But in life, you don't have to do it that way. But you can still slow down.
Gabrielle Hartley:
You can't think about whatever is upsetting you, or whatever noise is coming at you, or whatever noise is within you if you are thinking about breathing or counting the seconds that you are breathing. So it's not just a distraction, but it pulls off your brain as well as your entire body. Don't ask me more science questions. I'm a mediator and a lawyer. I'm not a mental health professional or a physician.
Pete Wright:
But it doesn't matter because I think this is really ... I love that we're even just talking about this, because the whole idea of slowing down, it's like this great practice of thinking more slowly.
Gabrielle Hartley:
Yes.
Pete Wright:
And my hunch is when you're in the divorce process, you are doing your best just to keep up. There's hurry up and wait, hurry up and wait, hurry up and wait.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah, it's definitely Disney World. I agree with that, Pete. The other thing that happens in court, and remember in court, the judge is always evaluating you even when you're not on the stand.
Pete Wright:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Seth Nelson:
So when that lawyer on the other side is asking questions of your spouse and it's just lies, you'll want to jump over the table and jump up and say, "They're lying." You have all these just visceral reactions that are going to happen.
Seth Nelson:
And the judge, and I've seen it, look at people in the courtroom and say, "Ma'am, you need to stop making faces when I'm listening to testimony." That's a bad sign for you, okay?
Seth Nelson:
So if you can stay calm and composed, and the other thing to realize is that you've hired a lawyer who is hearing all this, who knows, should know how to counteract that if they need to, because some lies help your case.
Gabrielle Hartley:
Absolutely.
Seth Nelson:
One, the judge might know that the other side is lying and that it's not credible. If the judge already finds it not credible and I can read that on the judge's face, because most of our communication is non-verbal, then I'm not going to spend a lot of time on it.
Seth Nelson:
And my client will say, "Why didn't you attack them on that issue?" I said, "Because the judge didn't believe them." And when you're winning, keep your mouth shut.
Gabrielle Hartley:
That is a really big tip.
Seth Nelson:
But clients don't know that, right? They are like-
Gabrielle Hartley:
People don't know that.
Seth Nelson:
Right.
Gabrielle Hartley:
In real life, I try to teach my kids. My middle son will come back and I'm like, "I already ordered the thing. I'm going to return it now. Stop it, all right?" By the way, I want to give you one more little practice tip for your clients. And this is from Amy Cuddy's work on power positions. I don't know if you guys are aware of Amy's work.
Gabrielle Hartley:
So before I would go in for a hearing, or even now, when people are coming into my office, I encourage all of my clients to go into the bathroom if they're at the courthouse, and take 10 deep breaths in and out. I know. Well, we're not showing this video anywhere. So I'm going to have you guys do it right now. Let's all stand up. Everybody, get up. Up, up, up. You. Go ahead, Seth. Get up.
Seth Nelson:
So Brooklyn bossy. I feel it.
Gabrielle Hartley:
So what you're going to do is I want you to be expansive. Reach all the way up, and I want you to poof out your chest and close your eyes. And you're going to do 10 breaths, just in and out through your nose. Here we go. I'm going to count out loud so you don't have to look. Ready?
Gabrielle Hartley:
One, out. Two, stretch higher. Out. Three, deeper. Out. Reach really high. We're going to just do five. Actually, four. Okay. Now, this is going to be your last one. Let this out. Now for the last breath, I want you to take it in. And I want you to really reach to the stars and let it out. Now, lower your arms and just feel the sensations in your body. How do you feel?
Seth Nelson:
I feel short.
Gabrielle Hartley:
That is not what you're supposed to say, Seth.
Seth Nelson:
You keep saying reach higher. I'm like, "I'm 5' 6" on a good day. That's all I've got."
Gabrielle Hartley:
So, anybody feel anything other than short, Pete?
Pete Wright:
No, that was great. I feel tingly. It's like, I feel it all up and down my spine and my scalp is kind of engaged. I feel present and accounted for. Check your local jurisdiction. It's never happened to me.
Gabrielle Hartley:
You're going to be energized, you're going to be more present, and your body language is going to suggest that you're present and you're a little more calm. And if you do that, coupled with the breathing, it can really be game changing. And these are just two of many, many, many simple little hacks or tips, or whatever you want to call it in Better Apart.
Gabrielle Hartley:
So even though I work as a mediator and I don't go to court, and I really believe in mediation when it's done with a lawyer in consult, or at least there's a real opportunity for a lawyer consult, I didn't write Better Apart for people necessarily in mediation. I wrote it for people who have tough divorce litigators, like Seth, like Lisa, the lawyer I work with in Manhattan.
Gabrielle Hartley:
I wrote Better Apart for people who are going through the most difficult, heated divorces, because I know that it can feel very alone. And most lawyers are not going to give them all of this kind of attention, because it's just not the usual way forward.
Gabrielle Hartley:
So even though I had been practicing for over 20 years when I wrote Better Apart, I had this idea that the divorce litigators would buy a box of this book and hand them out to their clients. But of course, what's really happening is the mediators are handing it out rather than the litigators. But if you are listening and you are in litigation, it's really designed to be a companion for you.
Pete Wright:
It's just a wonderful resource and it's an easy read. But before we wrap up, do you want to tell people where they can find more about the work that you're doing for other professionals in the field? You do a ton of work for the field itself.
Gabrielle Hartley:
So you can find me at gabriellehartley.com, where you can find everything that I'm offering, both for people getting divorced and for divorce professionals.
Pete Wright:
This is wonderful. Gabrielle, thank you so much for joining us today. It's been a real treat to meet you and learn more about the work that you've done in the field, and for those seeking a mindful divorce. We appreciate you being here.
Gabrielle Hartley:
Thank you so much. It's really been a pleasure to get to talk to both of you.
Seth Nelson:
And we'll breathe easier from here on out, Pete.
Pete Wright:
That's right. I'm tingly, Seth. Thank you everybody for downloading and listening to this show. We appreciate your time and attention. On behalf of Gabrielle Hartley and Seth Nelson, I'm Pete Wright. We'll catch you next time, right here on How to Split a Toaster, a divorce podcast about saving your relationships.
Speaker 4:
Seth Nelson is an attorney with Nelson Koster Family Law and Mediation, with offices in Tampa, Florida. While we may be discussing family law topics, How to Split a Toaster is not intended to, nor is it providing legal advice. Every situation is different.
Speaker 4:
If you have specific questions regarding your situation, please seek your own legal counsel with an attorney licensed to practice law in your jurisdiction. Pete Wright is not an attorney or employee of Nelson Koster. Seth Nelson is licensed to practice law in Florida.

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